I don't follow these things...I just repeat back the DL consensus of opinion.
Are we pro Israel or pro palestine?
|by not that bright||reply 98||11/19/2012|
I stopped being pro-Israel a while ago. They've adopted victimization as justification for hateful bullying and bigotry.
They've sunk to the level of those that original persecuted them.
However, I'm not the biggest fan of the Palestinians or Arabs either. They created most of this mess, and they perpetuate it (just as Israel does). Neither seems to actually want peace. They can't let go of vengence.
So a pox on both their houses, as far as I'm concerned.
|by not that bright||reply 1||11/19/2012|
What has either of them done for the US lately, especially Israel since they get gobs of money from the US and seemingly give nothing or do anything in return. The problem is that it's a tiger caught by the tail apparently; if they are left to their own devices a nuclear war could result. I do think Israel needs to be weaned off the American tit though and they need to start figuring out ways they can begin to repay all the money sent to them by this country. On the other hand, I think if the money flow was shut off entirely to all parties they might pursue peace soon enough, not that I really care though.
|by not that bright||reply 2||11/19/2012|
I'm like R1. When I was younger I believed the "we're victims" and "we have a right to defend ourselves" narratives about Israel because that's what the media tells us. Those narratives were just cover so Israel could do anything it wanted. Now I don't want anything to do with Middle Eastern people. These wars are just more things to get us further involved with these people, people who will never change. These people hold grudges. So I'm neither.
|by not that bright||reply 3||11/19/2012|
There will always be diverse strong feelings about the entire Mid East situation. Respect that we re-elected Obama, in part for his skill in diplomacy. Regretfully many on DL won't understand why Israel benefits the US, as it's kept confidential for security reasons.
|by not that bright||reply 4||11/19/2012|
[quote]especially Israel since they get gobs of money from the US and seemingly give nothing or do anything in return
The U.S. receives intelligence from Israel and has been since the 1950s. Many U.S. corporations have divisions in Israel which provide valuable R&D, particularly computer science and communication developments. The world, in general, profits from the technological developments in medical research and irrigation technology. If you want me to start listing the achievements, I'll quickly swamp the thread.
As for OP's original question, there is no consensus here on Israel or Palestine.
|by not that bright||reply 5||11/19/2012|
[quote]These wars are just more things to get us further involved with these people, people who will never change. These people hold grudges. So I'm neither.
That's my feelings exactly. I think Judaism is a more "evolved" religion than Islam (if we were to rank religions; I'm not pro- any of them), but those fuckers have been trying to kill one another for centuries, and it's unfortunate that we now live in times where their fucked-up decisions could affect us all.
If you're willing to kill people, or have your own family killed, over a piece of shithole real estate, you haven't learned anything from "religion."
|by not that bright||reply 6||11/19/2012|
well, I'd be much more comfortable on a plane sitting next to an Israeli than a Palestinian, Iraqi, Syrian or Arab on a plane. And you would too
|by not that bright||reply 7||11/19/2012|
I don't have any thing against Palestine or Israel in theory.
But if history, both ancient and modern, have taught us anything, it's that the Middle East region seems to be bent on war and violence to a such a high degree, it's as though it's pandemic to the region. I don't know why. Nothing seems to quell the need to fight, defend, be offended, attack, hate, hate, be offended again, like an incredibly angry Sisyphus.
I just wish we never had to have any contact with any entity, Jew, Arab, Christian, secular, corporate, from that region ever again.
|by not that bright||reply 8||11/19/2012|
In truth, most of the rest of the Arab world would be just as happy if Israel bulldozed the Palestinians into the sea; they've no love for them either.
Arming both sides of the conflict is big business for many players. Peace would bring little profit, so don't expect to see that anytime soon.
I do feel sorry for all the fear and suffering on both sides.
|by not that bright||reply 10||11/19/2012|
What I don't get is that if Jews make the best doctors in the world and Israel has socialized medicine, what's wrong with socializing medicine in the USA?
|by not that bright||reply 11||11/19/2012|
No way to be pro Israel anymore.
|by not that bright||reply 12||11/19/2012|
[r9] completely ignorant about the history of Jews in the Muslim world. They were treated with much more respect and humanity, and victimized much less, than in Europe.
OT, if you have any understanding of the history of the conflict, the context of British colonialism that produced the state of Israel within an existing nation, the letter of international law (such as prohibitions on settling occupied territory and subjecting a population to a military dictatorship), and the consensus among the rest of the world that Israel needs to budge from its resistance to conceding anything substantial to the Palestinians, you cannot support further warmaking by the eight-largest military in the world against one of the poorest, most densely populated and most characterized by suffering places in the world, i.e. Gaza.
|by not that bright||reply 14||11/19/2012|
I'm definitely more Pro-Israel if I had to choose, but at this point, what's the point?
THE FIGHTING WILL NEVER END BETWEEN THE TWO GROUPS. EVER.
|by not that bright||reply 15||11/19/2012|
I am Pro-Israel and Pro-Palestine. I just am anti-Zionism and anti-Jihadism. Both are forms of religious extremism that use terrorism as a means to an end. The only difference is that the latter is condemned by the U.S. while the other is protected.
|by not that bright||reply 16||11/19/2012|
R14 Jews for decades wanted to take over that area now known as Israel before it happened after WWII. Jews were buying up land in that region for decades. It wasn't until after WWII when many things came together including Jews lobbying Britain to create Israel with their military power that it came to be.
As far as the relationship with Jews in Europe, that isn't something that can be honestly discussed.
|by not that bright||reply 18||11/19/2012|
Yeah, let's bring up a single anecdote from a more than 1300 year history of coexistence in order to lay red herrings and straw men around the field of debate, [r17]. Let's also not control for ongoing conflict, local factors, political context or really anything else that would be significant to social scientists or historians. How gullible do you think people are?
If you had any knowledge of the systematic facts and patterns of Muslim-Jewish relations in Muslim-controlled areas of the world before the 20th century this argument would not even be taking place. Muslims have not "been trying to kill Jews for centuries." The sheer ignorance of that statement amazes me.
|by not that bright||reply 20||11/19/2012|
Palestine, but I've spent a lot of time outside the U.S. It's really only then that you start to understand that the U.S. is the ONLY Western country offering unqualified support for Israel, and which refuses to ever label its acts of blatant terrorism against Palestine or Lebanon as such. And yes, this is entirely because the U.S. has a uniquely large, rich and powerful Jewish lobby. While I am not a conspiracy theorist who thinks "Jews run the country," I'm smart enough to know their level of influence both inside the Beltway and amongst fundamentalist Christians (who couldn't care less about Israel/Palestine, since Jews of course don't believe Jesus is the son of God, except that in the Christian Bible Jesus said that Israel's continued existence is critical to His Resurrection, so obviously fundie types will do anything to assure Israel's safety in that context).
|by not that bright||reply 21||11/19/2012|
[all posts by right wing shit-stain # a removed.]
|by not that bright||reply 22||11/19/2012|
[quote] It's really only then that you start to understand that the U.S. is the ONLY Western country offering unqualified support for Israel, and which refuses to ever label its acts of blatant terrorism against Palestine or Lebanon as such.
Australia seems to be giving Israel unqualified support.
|by not that bright||reply 25||11/19/2012|
R10, Can you please explain your surprising statement that Arabs are not pro-Palestinian.
|by not that bright||reply 26||11/19/2012|
I'm pro-not starting World War III over a bunch of paranoid wingnuts in the middle of a piece of stinking desert.
|by not that bright||reply 27||11/19/2012|
I think it's pathetic for anyone to hate either country...I just think it's unfortunate there can't be peace there. I understood the moderates on both side, but the extremists need to go.
|by not that bright||reply 28||11/19/2012|
We are pro-Palestine.
The Canaanites are determined to exterminate the Arab race.
And all of it paid for by the American tax-slavers, who are possibly the stupidest people on the planet.
|by not that bright||reply 29||11/19/2012|
R4/R26, it really doesn't need much explanation, it's clear from observation. Other than providing pretext for keeping their anti-Israeli fires stoked for their own purposes of having a common enemy, the Arab states have nothing but thinly veiled contempt for the Palestinians and privately consider them a blight, even though they publicly call them brothers.
Take, for example, the fact that the Arab League countries routinely pledge monetary support for Palestine but often don't pay (see linked story from 2008, they do the same today)
|by not that bright||reply 30||11/19/2012|
[quote]The Canaanites are determined to exterminate the Arab race.
How curious. Yasser Arafat, Mammoud Abbas and Hanan Ashrawi have all claimed that the Palestinians descent from the Canaanites.
|by not that bright||reply 31||11/19/2012|
[quote] Are we pro Israel or pro palestine?
I'm neither. I really couldn't give a shit about either of them, or whether or not they blow themselves all to hell.
This fight is so old and so tiresome. I'm COMPLETELY OVER IT. Besides the fact that it has no impact on me whatsoever.
Let them do what they will. I don't care.
|by not that bright||reply 32||11/19/2012|
The only answer is Israel
|by not that bright||reply 33||11/19/2012|
[quote] Respect that we re-elected Obama, in part for his skill in diplomacy.
Can r4 remind me again what diplomacy skills he has again?
|by not that bright||reply 34||11/19/2012|
Obama is currently in Myanmar (Burma), making him the first sitting U.S. president to visit. The U.S. was able to negotiate the release of more political prisoners with his visit. I listened to the speech congratulating the country on its progress toward democracy, noting the release of prisoners of conscience and the end of forced labor. I thought he did a pretty good job.
Last night he was in Thailand. He appeared in a joint press conference with Prime Minister Shinawatra. He ably handled questions from the press, including a four-part question from a Bloomberg reporter.
I'm happy he's focusing on developing our relationships with southeast Asian nations and making this his first post-election trip.
And, at the risk of objectification, Prime Minister Shinawatra must be the prettiest head of government currently sitting.
|by not that bright||reply 35||11/19/2012|
Israel now sits where ancient Canaan once did.
The Canaanites later settled in Venice and became the Ventians, migrating eventually to form the Bank of Amsterdam. At the end of the 17th century they invaded England with the purpose of chartering the Bank of England. The rest is, as they say, history - a history of nonstop wars and crushing public debt.
The Canaanites own the Bank of England, the Fed, and the ECB.
|by not that bright||reply 36||11/19/2012|
Palestine. Israelis are xenophobic assholes.
|by not that bright||reply 37||11/19/2012|
[quote]The U.S. receives intelligence from Israel and has been since the 1950s.
Intelligence that they pick and choose to tell us...
|by not that bright||reply 40||11/19/2012|
Palestine. I stand up for the despised and humiliated.
|by not that bright||reply 41||11/19/2012|
[quote]Israel does give plenty back to the u.s in return for the financial and political backup. Just because most are not interested enough to find out what that is, is just plain ignorance on your part.
Where have I heard that pathetic line before? Oh yes, from all of Mitt Romney's supporters who spent 2012 telling us, "he has a TERRIFIC plan to get this country back on track! Too bad you're just too lazy and stupid to look it up!"
Or to put it another way, put up or shut up.
|by not that bright||reply 42||11/19/2012|
I'm not going read or participate in this thread except to say that it will become a cesspool, if it hasn't already, and that no one who could be persuaded by reason will open it.
|by not that bright||reply 43||11/19/2012|
We stick up for the gay hating Muslims OP.
|by not that bright||reply 44||11/19/2012|
I won't stand up for child murderers, r44:
|by not that bright||reply 45||11/19/2012|
Those dead babies weren't responsible. This is cold blooded murder raining down on Gaza. It's Final Solution scenario - ring a bell?
|by not that bright||reply 49||11/19/2012|
My boyfriend is an Israeli and lives with me in the US. I asked him his opinion about what is going on and he said it's just a cycle that occurs every so often and it should quiet down soon. He doesn't seem that worried about it.
However, he does worry about the potential for nuclear war. I don't know how he tolerates all of this, his entire family and most of his friends live in Israel. I would be a nervous wreck.
|by not that bright||reply 50||11/19/2012|
Gilad Sharon's psychopathic article:
|by not that bright||reply 52||11/19/2012|
I am pro peace, which is a lost cause. It is difficult to be fullheartedly pro-Israel or fullheartedly pro-Palestine. I am certainly against the embargo of Gaza which I blame for this horrid chapter in Israel-Palestinian relations. I believe both sides have the right to defend themselves, and that includes defending themselves from economic warfare. I think the creation of the state of Israel was a huge mistake, but that doesn't mean we can go back and change that. I am very much against settlement by the Israelis of occupied territories and that should be changed. I, like many Israelis, am against the present government.
Ideally, I would like a one state solution, but that would mean a huge war.
I know of no good answer and don't pretend to have one. It's a continuing disaster with no end in sight.
|by not that bright||reply 53||11/19/2012|
I think both sides are lunatics.
|by not that bright||reply 55||11/19/2012|
I'm hearing this "Israel has a right to defend itself" when in fact, Israel are the occupiers & aggressors. So it's kind of poetic when you deduce that Israel needs to defend itself from itself.
|by not that bright||reply 57||11/19/2012|
[quote]They gave him a lot of money
Recycled US money --same as they "gave" in symbolic payments to the USS Liberty survivors and victim families.
|by not that bright||reply 58||11/19/2012|
I'm pro whoever wouldn't kick my gay ass, so I guess I'm pro Israel.
|by not that bright||reply 59||11/19/2012|
As long as we agree to live and source from the past and choose to build our present from it, it will never be escaped. The hell will go on forever and at some point will destroy everything around it.
The only solution is for everyone involved to decide on a new starting point, one unencumbered by past.
|by not that bright||reply 60||11/19/2012|
59% of Americans are sympathetic to Israel right now. So the mainstream media has done an excellent job.
|by not that bright||reply 62||11/19/2012|
I side with Islam!!! screw the jews!!!
|by not that bright||reply 63||11/19/2012|
What do you have in mind r4? Please elaborate so that one might find this "understanding" you are talking about. Unlike so many Christians who think they do, I don't "take things on faith" or secrecy. Also, this intelligence and spying the Israelis do is worth the billions and billions that have gone down the Israel "drain"? And r5, please go ahead and list all you want to list only back up what you claim. The only thing I'm asking is whether all the money shoved their way, or any country the US sends hard earned taxpayer dollars to (and you can be sure that the rich pay as little as they can) is worth it--what do we get in return? When do Israelis help the US in all their hare-brained military adventures? Why all the mystery?
|by not that bright||reply 64||11/19/2012|
|by not that bright||reply 65||11/19/2012|
Frankly, I think anyone who wants to live in peace should be allowed to.
All of the idiot extremists on BOTH sides who want to fight and squabble like a bunch of whores can be shipped off to the Gobi desert where they can just kill each other with reckless abandon.
Everyone else will be glad to see them go.
|by not that bright||reply 66||11/19/2012|
I just hate it when fraus use their baby strollers as battering rams.
|by not that bright||reply 67||11/19/2012|
I'm so disgusted with all of them that I wish they would just all explode or something.
|by not that bright||reply 68||11/19/2012|
R64, I realize that sadly some on this thread won't accept the fact that many voted for Pres Obama, because they perceive him to be a skilled diplomat. Likewise even though other posters discussed just a few of Israel's benefit to American interests, those like R64 aren't interested.
What is the Palestinian record on human rights for THEIR people, including women and children? A society that educates everyone is always more likely to be open to those who are viewed as "different" from the norm, whatever that may be.
|by not that bright||reply 69||11/19/2012|
OP, this question clearly could have been solved more efficiently for you if you'd only USED A POLL.
[quote] And, at the risk of objectification, Prime Minister Shinawatra must be the prettiest head of government currently sitting.
Agreed, she's very pretty, although the Dragon King of Bhutan may be better looking.
|by not that bright||reply 71||11/19/2012|
Here's Shinawatra with Obama:
|by not that bright||reply 72||11/19/2012|
r69, I voted for Obama so I wouldn't be too presumptuous. R70, you go ahead and do what you want to do, I really don't give a shit...get as pissy or pissed off as you want. Science, technology, whatever...if you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit.
|by not that bright||reply 73||11/19/2012|
Link please r61.
|by not that bright||reply 74||11/19/2012|
"The rockets started flying out of Gaza in 2001. The embargo was imposed in 2007. The embargo did not cause the rockets or the Israeli response to the rockets."
Nor were the rockets flying out of Gaza in 2001 the beginning of the crisis which goes back decades.
But you knew that.
|by not that bright||reply 76||11/19/2012|
I heard gays are treated really well in Gaza
|by not that bright||reply 77||11/19/2012|
"The rockets started flying out of Gaza in 2001. The embargo was imposed in 2007. The embargo did not cause the rockets or the Israeli response to the rockets."
You are right. What caused the blockade was the election of Hamas and Hamas's victory over Fatah in the Gaza War. That is what caused not only Israel's but Egypt's response to starve and rob the people of Gaza of basis needs.
Israel has the right to defend itself from rocket attacks.
Just as Gaza has a right to defend itself from economic attacks which seek to destroy it, particular to destroy it merely for exercising its right to democratically elect a government of its choosing.
|by not that bright||reply 78||11/19/2012|
I just opened my eyes and realize what kind of a country Israel is. What a bunch of murderers. Let them get happy by killing others and make sure you are happy supporting them. But when they come after us, here in America. Make sure you remember who were the victims before you.
|by not that bright||reply 79||11/19/2012|
[quote]As far as the relationship with Jews in Europe, that isn't something that can be honestly discussed.
I don't get this statement.
|by not that bright||reply 84||11/19/2012|
"Our mission is to exceed customers expectations and be a leader in the hospitality market in Gaza as well as being the a good challengers Internationally."
|by not that bright||reply 89||11/19/2012|
I don't know, OP. I do know that this bullshit has been going on all my life - 50 fucking years. It's god damned ridiculous and I'm sick of it. The US has poured billions if not trillions of dollars into that desert rat hole. I'd be more than content if they'd just fucking go all out nuclear and wipe each other off the face of the earth and be fucking done with it.
|by not that bright||reply 90||11/19/2012|
The IDF shills need to remember to add their #pillarofdefense hashtags so we know who's on the payroll.
|by not that bright||reply 91||11/19/2012|
I support the palestinians that are not part of Hamas.
|by not that bright||reply 92||11/19/2012|
All of this is simply a means of making the investors of the industrial war complex, profitable. Without war there is little need for government and armies.
|by not that bright||reply 94||11/19/2012|
Pro Palestine, obviously. I have been boycotting Israeli goods for years. The Palestine people have a right to their own country. It's disgusting how the Israeli treat the Palestine people. It's the Apartheid all over again. And the fact is that Israel actually stops boats from shipping in food and medicine to the people in Gaza, even arrests them for trying to help.. fucking disgusting. It's making me sick. I don't like Israel at all.
|by not that bright||reply 95||11/19/2012|
[quote]they get gobs of money from the US and seemingly give nothing or do anything in return
Yeah and about 4X that amount goes to Arab Muslim countries. On top of oil. Let's cut them all off. Arab countries are very misogynistic (not that that'll bother DLers), anti black, anti gay.
The history of Jew, Hindu and black slaughter among arabs is historically well known. To claim otherwise is just veiled propaganda.
That is why none of Britains suggestions-partitions worked. Israel included, it should never have happened.
|by not that bright||reply 96||11/19/2012|
R88 I have heard the delay in distributions of medical necessities was due to an ongoing dispute between the PA and Hamas over finances.
|by not that bright||reply 97||11/19/2012|