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The Iliad and the Odyssey

They are just early bastardized versions of the Maharbharata and Ramayana, aren't they? Another "invention" of the West turns out to be copied from the East.

by Anonymousreply 4109/30/2012

It's either the Maharbharata or a "Mame" thread around here. Over and over again.

Can't you people come up with something NEW?

by Anonymousreply 109/25/2012

The Mahabharata dates from the 8th or 9th century BCE. The Iliad and the Odyssey date from the 8th century BCE. It is extremely unlikely the ancient Greeks and the Sanskrits had contact with one another. The epic texts originated form their national cultures separate from one another. I cannot think of a single Classicist or Sanskritist who would argue otherwise.

The Ramayana dates from the 5th to 4th century BCE, several centuries after the Homeric and the Mahabharata.

by Anonymousreply 209/25/2012

Awww. Someone is just taking his first comparative lit course.


by Anonymousreply 309/25/2012

R2 is so wrong.

by Anonymousreply 409/25/2012

Nothing is brand new.

by Anonymousreply 509/25/2012

[quote]Nothing is brand new.

True. Just ask Gaga.

by Anonymousreply 609/25/2012

The Ramayana sounds like a dance Mitzi Gaynor would teach us how to do in Go-Go boots, backed up a bunch of chorus boys.

by Anonymousreply 709/26/2012

R7, that's coming soon in a Bollywood movie near you.

by Anonymousreply 809/26/2012

The Iliad and the Odyssey are said to be a retelling of Gilgamesh.

by Anonymousreply 909/26/2012

Long years ago, I did a paper comparing Mythology & the Bible. It surprised me how many of our earliest legends, stories, and oral traditions are so similar, like Samson and Hercules, for example. or the Norse god, Whodin and Zeus.

Yes, there are obvious dissimilarities and details and cultural changes from civilization to civilization, and age to age, but the similarities persist.

Makes you wonder. It's as if there was one universal Truth that got reinterpreted and revised yet the basic elements remained the same. Probably handed down from our forefathers the Ancient Aliens.

by Anonymousreply 1009/26/2012

Are there no educated people on DL anymore? It's the Hebrew Bible that is a retelling of Gilgamesh. And Greek and Sanskrit are both Indo-European languages that share an Aryan origin and mythology, so their epic sagas could be distantly related.

by Anonymousreply 1109/26/2012

I agree, R11. We don't even get links to the NYT op/ed pieces anymore. Maureen Dowd is greatly missed.

by Anonymousreply 1209/26/2012

Are you kidding, OP? You're a fucking idiot. Have you read the Maharbharata or Ramayana? I've tried reading both (wasn't able to get through either), but even in my short study of those works, they're not like the Iliad or the Odyssey, other than certain archetypal themes and characters, and even then, that is only in passing.

by Anonymousreply 1309/26/2012

Sumerian housewife, shouldn't you be out planting chickpeas?

by Anonymousreply 1409/26/2012

R13, you may not agree with OP, but calling him a "fucking idiot" seems a bit much.

by Anonymousreply 1509/26/2012

You could look at it that way. Or you could, more intelligently, look at it as a confirmation that the themes of myth are universal.

I doubt very highly that Homer and Virgil were personally familiar with the classic Indian sagas.

by Anonymousreply 1609/26/2012

Joseph Campbell owns this thread!

by Anonymousreply 1709/26/2012

The works have little in common. And the Iliad and Odyssey are very different in every way but structure. Try reading all four works, OP, instead of regurgitating nonsense.

by Anonymousreply 1809/26/2012

Congrats, OP. You've got the most pretentious post of the year. Not to mention dullest. Wake me when the conversation gets interesting and turns to a comparison of Valley of the Dolls vs. Lucky/Chances.

by Anonymousreply 1909/26/2012

Has anyone out there ever planted chickpeas? Are they easy to grow?

by Anonymousreply 2009/26/2012

Shout out to Joseph Campbell. He moved me from agnosticism to atheism - the good little Catholic school girl that I was.

The Power of Myth should be required reading/viewing for every middle schooler. For me, who was never interested in mythology or ancient history, it was a beautiful discovery of human nature and connection. Though I completely lost my "faith" in my religion I discovered a new found faith and comfort in humanity.

by Anonymousreply 2109/26/2012

The New Testament is the retelling of The Odyssey

by Anonymousreply 2209/26/2012

The Jewish religious texts were not written down until the Babylonian Exile. Think about it.

by Anonymousreply 2309/26/2012

This scholar actually makes that argument, r22.

R23, that isn't entirely true. Some of the texts of the Hebrew Bible were written down or reached their final form around the time of the Exile. But some were written long before (Much of Psalms, the J and E strains of the Pentateuch, the David-Solomon royal history) and some long after (Daniel).

by Anonymousreply 2409/26/2012

The Iliad and Odyssey are more likely 7th century than 8th century (but using older stories, poetic formulas, etc.). Any similarities to Indian epic could depend on shared Indo-European background (going back almost a millennium) or common story motifs, not direct influence. Similarities to Gilgamesh could very well come from direct influence, since there were presumably enough people bilingual in Akkadian and Greek in that time and place.

Also, Joseph Campbell is ahistorical shite.

by Anonymousreply 2509/26/2012

Joseph Campbell was barely dead when there was a Jewish outcry about his supposed Anti-Semitism. In the late 80s and early 90s, no celeb or public figure could die without a review and judgement being passed on whether or not they were friends of Jews.

It was very odd.

by Anonymousreply 2609/26/2012

Most scholars date the Iliad to the mid-8th century (@750 BCE), and the Odyssey to a little later (@720 BCE).

by Anonymousreply 2709/26/2012

And yet the oldest place names in Palestine are Indo-European, Sanskrit sounding names.

by Anonymousreply 2809/26/2012

Some say the Maharbharata is the Iliad translated into Sanskrit.

by Anonymousreply 2909/26/2012

If the Mahabharata is 10 times the length of the Iliad, the Iliad is not a "translation" of it.

by Anonymousreply 3009/26/2012

Can you back that up in some way, r28?

by Anonymousreply 3109/26/2012

Of course R31

by Anonymousreply 3209/26/2012

There are only two plots: 1.) someone embarks on a journey of discovery; 2.) a stranger comes to town.

by Anonymousreply 3309/26/2012

There are certain thematic elements that recur in these epics, but, overall, the Iliad and the Odyssey are very different from the Sanskrit epics in topic. I'm quite familiar with the Homeric epics and the Mahabharata, and it never really occurred to me to suppose that any "copying" is going on. (On the other hand, the Aeneid does bear some resemblance to several books of the Mahabharata.)

Unless I'm mistaken, the oldest sections of the Mahabharata date no earlier than ca. 400 BCE, although the events being "described" are much earlier. Most scholars date the Iliad and Odyssey to the eighth century BCE, although, again, the events being "described" must be several centuries older.

by Anonymousreply 3409/26/2012

Absurd. No similarities in epical motive, scale, theme, world view, plotting, characterizations, or underlying cultural motifs. Given the broadly disparate rationales of the Iliad and Odyssey themselves, attempting to overlay a migration from India is laughably twattish.

Besides, no one seriously thinks anyone from the India subcontinent actually came up with the Mahabharata (at least try to get spellings right for things you know nothing of, OP), Ramayana or any of the Vedas, Upanishads or other texts without heavy borrowing from other materials. The inability of the Indians of any epoch to do anything original is a given from prehistory to the present.

by Anonymousreply 3509/26/2012

That is quite the load of crap at the link in r32. Ethnic championing is not scholarship.

by Anonymousreply 3609/29/2012

The Illiad was an oral story handed down approximately 400 years before written down around the 8th century BC by someone known as Homer.

It is based on true events as archeology has proven. There was city in that locale that was subjected to a siege and destroyed.

Certain lines of the poem describing the views and scenery can still be seen to this day, once the correct vantage point is found.

The (contemporary) Hittite Empire's records contain traces of a invasion by the Greeks of a city on the coast of Asia Minor - they referred to this city as steep wilios - close to "steep Illium."

Finally, even little things tie to the evidence, Troy was a walled city, one wall built by men, the rest built by gods. And the excavated city had one wall weaker than the rest.

by Anonymousreply 3709/29/2012

Didn't they even find the boats or something recently? Like in the past 100 years? Troy was in what is now Turkey. It's much further inland then it was and I believe there were seven walls to get to the city, the outer wall, and six more.

by Anonymousreply 3809/29/2012

No. They are not even vaguely similar. OP must have decided not to even read any of the works mentioned. Ignorant.

by Anonymousreply 3909/29/2012

In the 60s, all those wiry haired anteater radicals decided the Classics weren't relevant and the Dumbing Down of America began.

But when their kids came along, they dropped radicalism and put their energies into getting their little darlings into the best schools.

by Anonymousreply 4009/30/2012

You should get some sleep, r40.

by Anonymousreply 4109/30/2012
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