Israel Blasts U.S. Over Iran
TEL AVIVâThe rift between top U.S. and Israeli leaders appeared to deepen Tuesday as Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu leveled the sharpest attacks in years by an Israeli leader against Washington, over differences on how to address Iran's nuclear program.
Later Tuesday, both governments said President Barack Obama wouldn't agree to an Israeli request for a meeting between the two leaders at the United Nations General Assembly meeting in New York this month. The Israelis said their request was refused; the White House said there was a scheduling conflict and there could be a meeting elsewhere at another time.
Mr. Netanyahu has asked the U.S. to set 'red lines' that if crossed would trigger a military response. .The rupture was the result of months of growing Israeli frustration with Mr. Obama's approach to Iran, in which he has stressed diplomacy and punitive sanctions. Mr. Netanyahu has exhorted the Obama administration in vain to set "red lines" that, if crossed, would trigger a U.S. military response.
|by Anonymous||reply 113||11/19/2012|
Mitt Romney will try to make hay out of this.
|by Anonymous||reply 1||09/11/2012|
We should always stand with Israel.
|by Anonymous||reply 2||09/11/2012|
Israel can suck everyone's collective cock. I hope the U.S. abandons those nasty ingrates.
|by Anonymous||reply 3||09/11/2012|
Netanyahu represents the far right-wing of Israeli politics. Most Jews in America and Israel favor Clinton's style of negotiation to stall warfare.
|by Anonymous||reply 7||09/12/2012|
Yes R8, except for all of the ones who are connected to my political party of choice. They are above board.
|by Anonymous||reply 9||09/12/2012|
Israel needs to stop expecting America to follow its every whim.
We will monitor the situation naturally, but we can't go to war every 2 seconds just because somebody wants to.
|by Anonymous||reply 10||09/12/2012|
[quote]Mitt Romney will try to make hay out of this.
I wonder how will it will go over. Maybe he can campaign with something like
"Obama won't give you war with Iran. I will!"
Should make independents and Democrats vote for him in droves.
|by Anonymous||reply 11||09/12/2012|
[quote] Isreal has become too arrogant and demanding. If it pushes t
Don't Laugh, this problem Is-real!
|by Anonymous||reply 12||09/12/2012|
i bet behind closed doors they are on the same page but obama doesn't want to give the world the impression that he is ok with what Israel will do with Iran.
|by Anonymous||reply 13||09/12/2012|
Not a paying member (insert Jew joke here), but there is quite a situation going on right now!! And no new thread?!
|by Anonymous||reply 14||11/15/2012|
Meh. Bibi can fuck off. We'll never let Israel get blown to smithereens but we're not asking "how high" when they say jump, either.
I am a paying member and I won't start a new thread on the latest clusterfuck over there. There's nothing wrong with this thread - it still has plenty of room for commentary.
Besides, new threads involving Israel always bring out those stupid fucking neo-Nazis and anti-Semites. God, they're tedious. I wish they'd all spend more time wanking to pics of their dream lover, Adolph, and less time on the DL.
|by Anonymous||reply 15||11/15/2012|
fucking rich ones, poor ones!
Different strokes for different folks
|by Anonymous||reply 16||11/15/2012|
Just give Israel the entire Pentagon already, that is really the next step here.
|by Anonymous||reply 17||11/16/2012|
Fuck the proxy war for Israel and now this in Gaza?? They are not running our Government and not really an ally either. What does this relationship get us? I do support Israel and their right to defend themselves against the bombings from Gaza but please leave us out of it. I am sick of it the US being dragged into Middle East conflicts.
|by Anonymous||reply 18||11/16/2012|
Israel has GREAT gay rights
|by Anonymous||reply 19||11/16/2012|
I will NEVER STAND WITH ISRAEL! You sound like the fundie Christians...throw our brains away, simply because of a few fanatics. Many of the Christians here would put us in prison if given a chance. How dare you say WE MUST STAND WITH ISRAEL!? I will not.
|by Anonymous||reply 21||11/16/2012|
You're really desperate for a flame war, aren't you?
|by Anonymous||reply 22||11/16/2012|
I'm not involved in a war but I am very angry and if Netanyahu were in the same room with me...well, as you can see, I hate him.
|by Anonymous||reply 24||11/16/2012|
They (Britain/Israel/US, all the damn same) want to nuke Iran, fulfilling several prophecies, the goal of putting the bombs in the towers, and then the planes - and they're all going to slip up somehow. So evil, such worship of death. Me! Me! Me! Ego. Ego. Ego. Ergo. It's going to be cool watching the warmongers get what they deserve. Think Pritraieus (will never spell check).
|by Anonymous||reply 25||11/16/2012|
[quote]So evil, such worship of death
Sounds as though you've been watching Muslim death porn.
|by Anonymous||reply 27||11/16/2012|
Israel has GREAT gay and women's rights
|by Anonymous||reply 28||11/16/2012|
r26, you have no crediblity
|by Anonymous||reply 29||11/16/2012|
Israel has average gay rights. Orthodox Jews in Israel want women in the back of the bus, covered up - they spit at JEWISH women in tank tops and shorts visiting Israel.
|by Anonymous||reply 31||11/16/2012|
[quote]They murder gays on a daily basis.
Who murders gays on a daily basis?
|by Anonymous||reply 32||11/16/2012|
r28/r29/r30 is a troll who doesn't understand Troll-dar. Hon, we can see that you're not three different people.
You started off with:
[quote]NEVER trust any Jew!!!
You're outta here, trash!
|by Anonymous||reply 33||11/16/2012|
r31, as opposed tio Gaza strip where gays are hung
|by Anonymous||reply 36||11/16/2012|
[quote]Who murders gays on a daily basis?
Do you know where those bombs land? Do you know know that they're starving gays to death? Oh, that's right, those people aren't Jews, they don't count.
America isn't murdering it's own gays, so that justifies killing innocent people in its countless wars, even illegally occupying a country?
It doesn't matter if a country has gay rights! What the fuck does that justify here? WTF does that have to do with starting a war with Iran? Suddenly, because you don't act stupid when it comes to gays, you have the right to do whatever the fuck you want?
People are so goddamn dumb on here. This "gay rights" meme is pure Republican speak, all these stupid phrases and slogans to hide behind while doing illegal and barbaric acts.
Israel doesn't have moral superiority in the Middle East, and I don't want to go to war with Iran for them. This is what they're trying to do. They can go fuck themselves. They have their minions infiltrating the US government, and they're trying to push our President around who won't give into their bullshit. They are angrier than ever that President Obama was reelected.
|by Anonymous||reply 38||11/16/2012|
[quote][R31], as opposed tio Gaza strip where gays are hung
|by Anonymous||reply 39||11/16/2012|
Oh the idiots, racist creeps have to come out. I hate Israel. I never hated Jews. Israel is a country. Like Germany is a country. Only at this point, Germany is a much better country than Israel is.
|by Anonymous||reply 40||11/16/2012|
r37, troll-dar r35. It's a troll.
|by Anonymous||reply 42||11/16/2012|
There's no shortage of trolls on this thread.
|by Anonymous||reply 43||11/16/2012|
Israel has WAY BETTER GAY AND WOMEN AND ANIMALS RIGHTS THEN OTHER COUNTRIES IN THE MIDDLE EAST!! PROVE ME OTHERWISE
|by Anonymous||reply 44||11/16/2012|
On a good note, if Israel is attacking the US publicly, then they are losing their power over the US Military behind the scenes.
No foreign country should have so much power over US troops.
|by Anonymous||reply 46||11/17/2012|
Netanyahu is on very shakey ground at home. He is trying very hard to stay viable. He is on his way out. That's a fact. He has very little support.
|by Anonymous||reply 47||11/17/2012|
Troll alert, R42 is a hall monitor.
|by Anonymous||reply 48||11/17/2012|
[quote]Israel....Do you know know that they're starving gays to death?
Huh? Care to clarify/expound?
|by Anonymous||reply 49||11/17/2012|
THANK GOD.OBAMA WON THE ELECTION If was Rommey in the White house, the World would really end in 12/21/12
|by Anonymous||reply 51||11/17/2012|
I have nothing against Israel, but I also have nothing against the Palestinians (except if the Moslem ones try to come after me because I'm homosexual/gay) and maybe Israel has a point about Iran albeit overreacting. What I don't understand and have asked this question on DL before and gotten a few mediocre answers is that, for the money the US sends to Israel, and it is in the billions of dollars/year as I understand, what does Israel do for the US? What I mean is, they don't send cheap wine or oranges or matsoh ball soup; they have no oil to speak of, what do they do or give in return for all the money "given" to them by the US? I have heard the vague "military ally" respoonse and "they do alot of valuable spying for us", but how does that fully compensate? I have said it before, but I think Israel ought to give any American citizens who want it a free, all expense paid tour of the "Holy Land" as part of repayment for all this money that to me, at least partly could be better used in this country. Not to disavow any sort of "friendship" with them, but I think Israel is the type of friend that is always asking for a loan and never pays it back and cries "I thought you were my friend" if you refuse to lend them any more money. "I will gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today......."
|by Anonymous||reply 52||11/17/2012|
I think the military industrial complex really runs this country, so I'm not sure if Obama can keep us out of war. As you can see, the right wing already calls Obama a Muslim and insist that he will not support Israel. I think he is between a rock and a hard place. I hope he has some cards to play.
|by Anonymous||reply 53||11/17/2012|
R50 is a lying sack of shit. Smart bombs...you are not very smart if you believe in smart bombs. A bomb is a bomb and they kill and kill and kill. That's why they are built and that's what they do and Israel and the USA own most all of them. Bombs, are not smart and neither are people who use them against the innocent.
|by Anonymous||reply 54||11/17/2012|
200 rockets launched against Hamas yesterday. That means human casualties, their property destroyed. How revolting. I hate Israel and wish them the worst luck possible.
|by Anonymous||reply 55||11/17/2012|
[quote]That means human casualties, their property destroyed
All war means human casualties and property destruction. And if your reply is that you meant to type civilian casualties, all war means civilian casualties.
If Hamas didn't want war, it would have honored the cease fire and stopped the rocket attacks on civilian targets in Israel. If Hamas didn't want civilian casualties on its side, it would have stopped firing rockets from civilian areas and stopped storing ammunition in civilian areas.
|by Anonymous||reply 56||11/17/2012|
The difference is that those casualties happen because unlike Israelis, Palestinians are trapped in an open-air prison. It's not like they can even get away to protect themselves.
Zionists are a myopic bunch who will scream about other people suffering, but when it's at their own hands, it's justified. Evangelicals, Limbaugh, Beck, Palin and Hannity are on their side - that's all anyone needs to know about this situation.
Politicians (incl. Obama) side with Israel out of self-preservation. No one in their right mind could look at what is happening on a daily basis and think Israel is the "victim." Howard Dean was vilified for even suggesting that the US become even-handed.
Likudniks have destroyed the credibility if this country.
|by Anonymous||reply 57||11/17/2012|
Israel is the worst thing to happen to the once majestic cultural citadel that was once American Jewry. Gross. Pick a country and then live there.
|by Anonymous||reply 58||11/17/2012|
The consequence for the civilians of the US for our government siding with Israel is 9/11 and the tight security we must all endure while flying in our own country. We're now like Israel in that sense. Israel exists because of biblical texts written ages ago and are squatting on land that isn't theirs. We've become the target of their cause because our government has supported them. Obama knows this and doesn't want us to suffer for their cause. Terrorists will target us if we give aid to Israel. So people of all creeds, even Athiests are suffering and inconvenienced by those who believe in old writings that don't work in today's modern world. If we stop supporting Israel then we will no longer be a target of the Palestinian sympathizers. Israel does nothing for us. They don't supply a service that's worth risking our own civilians over. Israel is at the heart of the 9/11 attacks. Our aid to them costs us dearly. Wars over religion is so backwards. Add on top of that, they're all for themselves and view non-Jews as expendables. Who needs that?
|by Anonymous||reply 59||11/17/2012|
Problem: InvisibleMan has promised the same piece of ground to two completing teams.
Solution: Let InvisibleMan make his position abundantly clear
Problem: The two competing teams don't get to meet InvisibleMan while participating in life.
Solution: The friendly, customer oriented US Military facilitate a meet and greet. The InvisibleMan can then make solve the problem that his indecision created.
Gains: The US is only the facilitator and is not imposing an outcome. Much needed target practice for the nuclear squads. The land will eventually be reusable (whats a millennium or two among friends). Fear and respect will enable better relations with the rest of the world - for the next century or so.
PS (to the powers that be): Do it on 21 December and blame the Mayans.
|by Anonymous||reply 60||11/17/2012|
R61, you need to stop listening to FOX and CNN...listen to NPR or the BBC. Look for the truth. Israel has been doing despicable things to the Palestinians, for decades...the Israelies...remind me of the Nazi's. The people of Israel learned no compassion from their tragedy and they have shown none. At this point I do not care what happens to the nation of Israel.
|by Anonymous||reply 62||11/17/2012|
R61; No, the US should not give back all its land to Mexico and Native Americans. Likewise you can't expect the Palestinians to just hand over the land because the Jews' ancestors lived there 2000 years ago.
|by Anonymous||reply 63||11/17/2012|
[quote]Look for the truth.
The truth is that the rockets started in 2001. In 2005, the Israelis unilaterally withdrew from Gaza with no concessions from the Palestinians. The Israelis did this in a bid for peace. The Palestinians responded by increasing the rate of rocket fire. The truth is that over 700 rockets had flown out of Gaza this year before the recent round of retaliation. The truth is that no other country in the world would have been as patient as Israel has with the rocket attacks against their civilian population. The truth is there can be no peaceful resolution until the Palestinians of Gaza recognize Israel and agree to negotiate for peace.
|by Anonymous||reply 64||11/17/2012|
For anyone still on the fence about this issue should read some of what the great theorist Judith Butler has to say about it. She describes herself as a "Jew Against Israel". As a Jewish woman she has railed against Israel and their terrorist tactics for over 20 years now. She often tries to drive home the point that just because one is Jewish, does not make them a Zionist zealot and just because one criticizes Israel doesn't make them an anti-Semite.
|by Anonymous||reply 66||11/17/2012|
Anyone still on the fence and considering pro-Palestinian arguments, should check the factual substantiation for any of their arguments. For instance, you will see frequent claims that Gaza is the most densely populated area on earth. Macau holds over 450,000 people in 6 square miles. Gaza holds about 1.5 million people in 147 square miles. Gaza is not even close.
|by Anonymous||reply 67||11/17/2012|
I remember once several Israeli pilots refused to bomb Palestinian targets. Why...because it was such an awful thing to do, they refused.
The Israeli army has killed Americans also...they simply didn't know or care. Tanks, tanks burying men women and children and no American news source covering it.
|by Anonymous||reply 68||11/17/2012|
This thread should disappear, along with Netanyahu.
Bibi sounds cute, like what they used to call Brigitte Bardot. Netanyahu sounds, respectable. Yahu sounds about right. Like a douche bag.
|by Anonymous||reply 69||11/17/2012|
Really, R72? The US should continue to be involved with the flypaper-like entity that is known as the Middle East so that right wind fundies from this country can go visit the sights. I don't think so.
Instead of putting the Palestinians in Aushwitz why don't you do us a favor and ask Israel to "destroy" all of the sights instead. Then we wouldn't need you at all.
|by Anonymous||reply 75||11/17/2012|
[quote]For anyone still on the fence about this issue should read some of what the great theorist Judith Butler has to say about it.
Absolutely I will!
Her extensive training in gender theory and the study of rhetoric must certainly make her a real expert in Mideast politics.
|by Anonymous||reply 76||11/17/2012|
[quote]Instead of putting the Palestinians in Aushwitz
Auschwitz? Thanks for the hysterical overstatement. Or do you think Auschwitz inmates had luxury cars? Did Auschwitz have five-star hotels? Did Auschwitz have water parks or Olympic-sized swimming pools?
|by Anonymous||reply 79||11/17/2012|
I am a proud liberal. But I loathe every single aspect of the middle east. If I was a New Age person, I would say the region has bad karma or bad energy or whatever. I know that many (if not most) are wonderful people trying to get by in life, but I'm just so damn sick of the instability, the violent theocracies, the constant bloodshed. I know we have our crazies here too, but it's fundamentally different. Sometimes you just have to throw in the towel and say "we need to get out". They don't want us there. And they aren't going to ever want us there. Fine. Let's leave and never look back. And I don't give a shit about the religious history. Get over it. God is bigger than a fucking region, or else he's a pretty pathetic god.
|by Anonymous||reply 80||11/17/2012|
You're the one that used the phrase "destroy the Palestinians."
Then what the fuck did you mean to say?
|by Anonymous||reply 81||11/17/2012|
That's a bullshit lie R82, and victory in battle does certainly not give you the right to destroy a people.
|by Anonymous||reply 84||11/18/2012|
Every transgression that each side commits against the other will come back upon the transgressor one day. That is the history of civilization.
|by Anonymous||reply 85||11/18/2012|
R83, I love artifacts and the notion that ancient civilizations and the ruins attached should be preserved as best as possible. However, I think the Middle East has proven itself, over the centuries, to be at such intense odds with the the rest of the world (which may or not be deserved, depending on POV), it might be time to severe ties with that region. If a building is burning, it's sad to lose photographs, but not worth running and getting killed in hopes of saving them.
I just want that region to be on its own. And that's what they want too. I wish them all the good luck in the world.
|by Anonymous||reply 86||11/18/2012|
Really, r85? Do you see that as the duty of sky pixies, or are you talking retribution by human actors?
|by Anonymous||reply 87||11/18/2012|
I am talking about human actions committed over the course of decades, perhaps centuries, R87. The old March of Time, the Fall of the So-and-So Empire, you know - the stuff that history teaches us when we pay attention.
If you choose to see the hand of God in it, I dare say the manifestation of Divine Retribution would resemble something fiercer than a sky pixie.
|by Anonymous||reply 88||11/18/2012|
THE END OF THE WORLD IS VERY SOON
|by Anonymous||reply 89||11/18/2012|
Religion sure does suck balls.
|by Anonymous||reply 90||11/18/2012|
You can understand why the Palestinians are so pissed off. They have systematically had their land taken off them over the last 60 years. Just taken away.
It doesn't seem that fair and they don't seem to be able to do much about it.
Take a look at the timeline map at the link.
What do we think?
|by Anonymous||reply 91||11/18/2012|
I think it doesn't matter, R91. It's become a colossal, deadly game of which part of the sandbox is yours vs. mine vs. god's vs. blah blah blah.
It's time to take our toys and just move on. If Israel wants to stay there, fine. Good luck. Otherwise, we can give them a slice of Montana or where ever that is all for Jewish descendants. Frankly, I'm sick and tired of being so embroiled in that part of the world. It's so frustrating.
|by Anonymous||reply 92||11/18/2012|
[quote]Exactly! but Israel bashing is Jew hatred and yes i AM aware of the amount of self loathing secular jews out there.
R72 this statement is fucking ridiculous. One of the most stupid statments I have ever seen on DL.
Following that line of thinking, criticising Australia is essentially Christian bashing yes? Why is not possible to criticise a country politically without it being labelled hatred? Jesus Fucking Christ.
One of the problems with Americans is that you as a race were never able to have a rational conversation about Israel. Amply demonstrated by many of the hysterical posts in this thread.It's a big problem for you - see 9/11.
Now I'll bet someone calls me an anti-Semite... sigh...
|by Anonymous||reply 93||11/18/2012|
You think they have the right to persecute the Palestinians for decades, R82? It's disgusting...it's as if they are keeping them in a prison, starving them, keeping them from jobs...making them have to smuggle in all their goods and stealing their homes and land. I hate Israel and I am white bread American but when I see what the Israelis have been doing, decade after decade, I want them dead.
|by Anonymous||reply 94||11/18/2012|
Someone said the area has bad karma? Hell yes...two terrible religions grew up in that area. And ever since that, there has been one war after another. Religion and war...seem to go hand in hand.
|by Anonymous||reply 96||11/18/2012|
Israel's wingnuts need to get their heads out of their asses and realize that geopolitics don't revolve around them, and they can't just stamp their little feet and hold their breath and make Uncle Sam start World War III for them. Ditto American wingnut Jews, and Christian wingnuts who just can't wait for Armageddon so they can get sucked up into heaven. The fact is that since America sold its soul to China in order to raise funds for our last little adventure in the Middle East, from now on we ain't doing ANYTHING unless China is okay with it, and China has ample evidence that we are complete and utter fuckups in taming the Middle East. In case Israel hasn't noticed, we had our asses handed to us in Iraq and Afghanistan. China has noticed. There's also the little matter of Russia and India, who while we were absorbed in our post-9/11 psychosis, have quietly risen to become very significant geopolitical players and for reasons of their own don't want any further U.S. shenanigans in the Middle East, especially those that would interfere with their access to Middle Eastern oil, a sentiment shared by China, that's using more oil by the second.
As for Israel, both the Palestinians and the Arabic nations surrounding it know that they're playing a waiting game. As it becomes more apparent that the Nazis aren't going to return from outer space and any Jew with his or her shit together is better off in Rockland County than in the Holy Land, the Jewish population will dwindle, accompanied by a dwindling of the siege mentality. Arabs and Jews and other ethnic groups will make friendships and babies and the apartheid rules will fall into disuse. Meanwhile, without foreign invaders to give them a reason to close ranks and get fanatical, the Middle East and Islam will have more of a chance to diversify and evolve and heal from the ghastly damage we've done to them.
|by Anonymous||reply 97||11/18/2012|
Thank you President Obama!!!
|by Anonymous||reply 99||11/18/2012|
R99, Thank you for your post. Another reason to be glad Pres Obama won re-election. Note my comments on the other threads about wanting the best diplomat possible in leadership positions.
|by Anonymous||reply 101||11/18/2012|
Two Jewish commentators were on Fareed Zakaria's show this morning. They said the attack on Gaza was a test run for an attack on Iran. They also said Israel was going to attack Lebanon. The attacks happened right after the US election.
|by Anonymous||reply 102||11/18/2012|
R100, Troll-dar shows us that you are unhinged. Rabidly defending Israel while simultaneously declaring that Jews are evil and never to be trusted. It is as though you feel it necessary to create anti-semitism yourself in order that you may combat it.
|by Anonymous||reply 103||11/18/2012|
It is so hard to decide which group of religious nuts to support.
|by Anonymous||reply 104||11/18/2012|
[r104] I wouldn't categorize Israel as a religious nut. The Hasidim don't believe in Zionism. Their nuts are in Brooklyn for the most part. Israel is a contradiction politically. They function domestically like a liberal Western European nation. They've been thrown into a cauldron for the last 64 years and have turned into a bellicose nation ...
|by Anonymous||reply 105||11/18/2012|
"Mr. Netanyahu has exhorted the Obama administration in vain to set "red lines" that, if crossed, would trigger a U.S. military response"
In other words, 'Yahu is prepared to fight to the last American dead body.
|by Anonymous||reply 106||11/18/2012|
[quote]Two Jewish commentators were on Fareed Zakaria's show this morning. They said the attack on Gaza was a test run for an attack on Iran. They also said Israel was going to attack Lebanon. The attacks happened right after the US election.
Did he bother inviting on a Palestinian or anyone else to speak for the other side, or was it pretty much like the rest of the US media where we get to hear the bullshit from the same Pro-Israel mouthpieces anytime the very subject of the Mideast comes up?
Fareed's about the only one I'd expect to invite someone on since not even MSNBC feels it necessary to hear from anyone but the Israeli Amb to the US or Dennis Ross or Martin Indyk or Andrea Mitchell herself parroting the Likud's press releases.
|by Anonymous||reply 108||11/18/2012|
I hope no one goes after Iran. Those bastards are so crazy.
|by Anonymous||reply 109||11/18/2012|
you want the truth?
the real truth that folks can't handle?
religion is the culprit.
nothing more to contribute.
if some being came into each of our heads, and there was absolutely no way you could refute that this was your "maker" and this creator told you, unequivocally, that when you die you (as a human and your mind, conscience) will NEVER know anything about your next life so this current reality is your ONLY "life" that you will ever know, I think there would be mass suicides (no issues) but the rest of the world would realize these issues are a fucking joke.
Killing people for no reason.
But religion and its fear-mongering has completely ruined what could have been a beautiful world.
Instead those of us who live incredible lives feel sadness about the helpless feeling that the world is beyond repair.
Because of religion and its zealots.
There is no reason for this war between the Palestinians and Israel.
|by Anonymous||reply 110||11/18/2012|
Yeah, R110. I agree -- especially if we include all those whose religion is Money.
|by Anonymous||reply 111||11/18/2012|
Netanyahu speaking candidly, not realizing cameras are on: "America won't get in our way, it's easily moved."
"America is something that can easily be moved. Moved to the right direction."
|by Anonymous||reply 112||11/18/2012|
Bibi was a fine-looking man in his 20s. Damn. Who knew?
|by Anonymous||reply 113||11/19/2012|