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Why do people say that teachers aren't paid fairly?

My local newspaper publishes the salaries of all town employees, including teachers and other education staff. Many of the teachers listed make between 65-90k per year. This doesn't seem "underpaid" to me, especially given two months off in the summer plus vacations at Christmas, etc. Yes, their job is tough and valuable -- and contending with sometimes ungrateful kids must be hard -- but people get paid about this in corporate jobs to contend with ungrateful adults!! Can someone explain the whole "teachers are underpaid" myth to me, please?

by Anonymousreply 23202/16/2013

Totally agree.

by Anonymousreply 106/25/2012

Corporate jobs get paid that? Where the hell do you live?

by Anonymousreply 206/25/2012

Its the new teachers that are underpaid, making it hard to recruit new, enthusiastic talent. I hate to admit it, but I guess this is one of the cases where unions are strangling their own industry. And even then, there are a lot of older, talented teachers that are still underpaid, depending on what district they teach in. The wealthier the district, the higher paid the teacher.

by Anonymousreply 306/25/2012

All of your teachers were underpaid, OP.

by Anonymousreply 406/25/2012

The teachers where I live start at $38,000 a year. I live on the central coast of California, where the median price of a house is about $300,000. Rent for a one bedroom apt starts at about $1400 a month.

by Anonymousreply 506/25/2012

Are you sure you don't mean all of his teachers were overpaid?

by Anonymousreply 606/25/2012

Most teachers spend at least an additional two hours prepping for their work every day designing lesson plans and an additional two hours every day grading papers and entering grades. That's a 12 hour day.

During the 8 hours that we spend with your children we risk our safety when dealing with behaviorally dysfunctional children. If we say or do the wrong thing in response, we risk having our careers terminated.

Most teachers buy books and supplies for the classroom that will never be reimbursed.

When we deal with students in the classroom it is as teacher, mentor, role-model and psychologist. We are the eyes and ears that help keep a child safe by reporting anything suspicious to Child Protective Services. Many times, in addition to teaching, we are chaperones for trips or advisors for after-school activities that add additional hours to hour daily jobs.

For those who say "You get eight weeks vacation every summer," ponder this: we rarely call in sick during the entire rest of the year because doing so would still require having lesson plans prepared -- do most jobs in the private sector require telling your replacement what to do moment-by-moment when you are out sick? Further, during those eight weeks, many of us take enrichment courses, so we are up to date on new techniques and technologies. We tinker with our curricula to remove things that did not work and add things that might.

If nothing I've said is compelling, ponder this item that I saw posted on Facebook:

Are you sick of high paid teachers? Teachers’ hefty salaries are driving up taxes, and they only work 9 or 10 months a year! It’s time we put things in perspective and pay them for what they do - baby sit! We can get that for less than minimum wage.

That’s right. Let’s give them $3.00 an hour and only the hours they worked; not any of that silly planning time, or any time they spend before or after school. That would be $19.50 a day (7:45 to 3:00 PM with 45 min. off for lunch and plan — that equals 6 1/2 hours).

Each parent should pay $19.50 a day for these teachers to baby-sit their children.

Now how many do they teach in day…maybe 30? So that’s $19.50 x 30 = $585.00 a day. However, remember they only work 180 days a year!!! I am not going to pay them for any vacations.

LET’S SEE…. That’s $585 X 180= $105,300 peryear. (Hold on! My calculator needs new batteries).

What about those special education teachers and the ones with Master’s degrees? Well, we could pay them minimum wage ($7.75), and just to be fair, round it off to $8.00 an hour. That would be $8 X 6 1/2 hours X 30 children X 180 days = $280,800 per year.

Wait a minute — there’s something wrong here! There sure is!

The average teacher’s salary (nation wide) is $50,000. $50,000/180 days = $277.77/per day/30 students=$9.25/6.5 hours = $1.42 per hour per student–a very inexpensive baby-sitter and they even EDUCATE your kids!)


by Anonymousreply 706/25/2012

OP, you're an idiot.

by Anonymousreply 806/25/2012

We're very well paid in Ontario. We're fortunate.

The job is getting increasingly harder though. More and more of my peers are off on stress leave or taking early retirement because the demands are so great.

by Anonymousreply 906/25/2012

[quote]The job is getting increasingly harder though.

With [italic]that[/italic] grammar, it's no wonder.

by Anonymousreply 1006/25/2012

My partner is a teacher. He has a Master degree and a law degree and left the practice of law to teach. He now makes about a third of what he could have made as a lawyer and is working just as much. He has classes that start at 7:45am, works at home most evenings grading or working on something related to school, he chaperones weekend school trips, attends school events, works into the summer on papers for AP classes In the area where we live the median price of a house is $500,000; starting salary for the district is $42,000. Fortunately, we do not have to live on his salary.

by Anonymousreply 1106/25/2012

I don't know any teachers that make the salaries you list, OP. Most teachers make far less and work, essentially, around the clock.

by Anonymousreply 1206/25/2012

[quote] Most teachers spend at least an additional two hours prepping for their work every day designing lesson plans and an additional two hours every day grading papers and entering grades. That's a 12 hour day

That is a lot, but a lot of people spend an hour a day of their own time (unpaid) for work related things. Some areas pay teachers a low salary, but they get a pension and good benefits. That more than makes up for their low pay

by Anonymousreply 1306/25/2012

For 9 months of the year, you are basically working all day, every day. It's the most stressful job I've ever had.

by Anonymousreply 1406/25/2012

I live in Philadelphia, 5th largest city in the US and public school teachers don't get that as a starting salary at all. Six colleagues are teachers there, that's why I know.

by Anonymousreply 1506/25/2012

I'm somewhat sympathetic, but lose interest when they start going on about how much more difficult their job is than others' jobs. A lot of people work hard for not enough pay. Teachers are not alone in that regard.

What I'd like to see teachers compensated with is some autonomy. Everyone seems to be their bosses - parents, principals, school boards, and superintendents - and now students are to be viewed as "customers." That's too much meddling. Hire well and let them do their jobs with a normal amount of oversight, not the absurd over-monitoring they get now.

by Anonymousreply 1606/25/2012

Teachers are not always underpaid. Starting salaries for many jobs for those straight out of school with a BS degree is around $40,000, and that is for working 12 months, and most likely little vacation. Also, I have never heard of any professional job where you do not work off-hours. Most people nowadays work at night or weekends. It is what you do to not only keep your job, but get ahead. I have felt for a long time that the teacher underpaid thing has been overstated. What I do think, however, is that there should not be a flat rate for teachers pay. The good ones should be paid more and tenure should be not be allowed, as it should be in any other job. I also think they should be given assistants to help with the administrative load that seems to take away from their actual job of teaching.

by Anonymousreply 1706/25/2012

[quote]. A lot of people work hard for not enough pay. Teachers are not alone in that regard.

yet no other profession is as important.

by Anonymousreply 1806/25/2012

It depends where you live. In America, where Heather has two mommies in one state and creationism is enforced in another, you really can't make a sweeping statement about what teachers earn. Nor can you be sure if a curriculum is up-to-date and relevant.

In the 90s and Oughties, when corporations and real estate were thriving, no one paid attention to what government workers made. Mocked them for missing out on the stock-market party actually, when GW Bush tried to make Social Security go private. Now that the hubbub has died down and public employees have some security and maybe respectable money -- you know, since worshipped, affluent corporate America has failed to hire anyone in the last four years -- people are out for their scalps. Including you, OP. I hope you feel good.

by Anonymousreply 1906/25/2012

My mother is a teacher, and it's not so much that the pay is grossly unfair. It's that the pay is unfair in comparison to other professions — I'm a tax lawyer, for example, and there's no way I should be making significantly more money than someone who is responsible for educating our youth — and that the pay is not enough to compensate for the fact that they're essentially stuck doing two jobs (educator and administrator).

by Anonymousreply 2006/25/2012

The bottom line is, whatever they're paid, IT ISN"T ENOUGH.

by Anonymousreply 2106/25/2012

OP = Repuke Conservacunt.

by Anonymousreply 2206/25/2012

You know, we had a saying, uh, that those who can't do teach, and those who can't teach, teach gym.

by Anonymousreply 2306/25/2012

At the university I went to the joke was that if you washed out of your chosen field, you could always get an education degree.

by Anonymousreply 2406/25/2012

In my union-hating red state, starting pay for teachers is around $30K -- and you're not getting a job unless you have a master's. Based on my general knowledge of teacher salaries around the country, OP's town pays on the high end. I think teachers are underpaid here, but not in OP's area. Yes, I know teachers work their asses off and put up with little shits. *I* work *my* ass off and have to put up with bigger shits who have the maturity level of grade-school students. The men are assholes and the women are either bitches or incompetent ditzes hired for their cup size. Instead of a total of three months' vacation, I work 60 hours a week and consider myself lucky *if* I'm able to take two weeks off (usually I can only take one because the office falls into such chaos when I go that I'll end up working remotely the entirety of my second week putting out all the fires that have been started).

by Anonymousreply 2506/25/2012

Teacher's have to be "ON" every moment that they are at work. THere is no down time. No time just sitting in front of a computer or reading. You are constantly expected to educate, entertain, enlighten, cajole, humor, console, psychoanalyze, or comfort those in your presence. And depending on the age group you teach, this can be a monumentally difficult task or an enjoyable one. But it still takes every ounce of energy you possess, every day you go in to work.

by Anonymousreply 2606/25/2012

R20, exactly

by Anonymousreply 2706/25/2012

[quote]Teacher's have to be "ON" every moment that they are at work. THere is no down time.

well put

by Anonymousreply 2806/25/2012

b/c w/out us u would not be able to do all the writing u do on DL.

by Anonymousreply 2906/25/2012

[quote]Starting salaries for many jobs for those straight out of school with a BS degree is around $40,000

Yeah, I think the number your looking for is closer to 30k. This is 2012, not 1999.

Here in Florida, teachers with master's degrees start at 30k, and usually remain between 30k and 35k for several years. BS and BAs start at 27k.

I know many teachers. Not only do they keep up with 100-150 kids after the elementary level, but they also have to deal with helicopter parents and administrators injecting their opinion into every little thing. Their days start extremely early and end late. They can never be late for work and it is frowned upon if they call out sick. All of that for 30k a year.

by Anonymousreply 3006/25/2012

In my area, the average pay for my son's high school for teachers is around $70,000 with teachers who've been there over 35 years making 130,000.

His school district, however, is one of the highest paid in the state. Also the majority of teachers there have advanced degrees, at least their Masters or working towards it. Starting salary is about 40,000 to $50,000.

I don't consider them underpaid there considering their summer vacations & numerous holidays & teachers days off(which they work through but don't have to put up with the kids.)

I also don't begrudge them their pay either as I deliberately picked the area to live in because they had a good academic reputation with little to no problems with gang violence, bullying or crime in general.

The biggest part of my tax bill goes to the school districts in the area and it was quite worth it for me.

by Anonymousreply 3106/25/2012

They are paid more than most people in the private sector today. Why? Because they have unions. The private sector is in a full throttle race to mass starvation. The problem isn't teachers making too much, it's private sector people making too little, allowing executives and a few (but only a very few) high paid lawyers, accountants, etc. steal the money that should be theirs. Yes, public sector people have a completely stupid ridiculous and false notion that they are underpaid. Sometimes even when they make hundreds of thousands of dollars a year! Why? Because they are comparing themselves to hedge fund thieves and CEOs, law partners and tech whizzes, which of course none of them would ever be had they been in the private sector, But don't bitch about how much they make. Bitch about how little most waitresses, cashiers, etc. make. That's the way forward on this topic.

by Anonymousreply 3206/25/2012

[quote]In my area, the average pay for my son's high school for teachers is around $70,000 with teachers who've been there over 35 years making 130,000.

this is Extremely rare, and certainly not at a public school.

by Anonymousreply 3306/25/2012

My friend gets paid 70k for teaching fucking kindergarten. Underpaid my ass.

by Anonymousreply 3406/25/2012

While I think education, particularly public education is important, it is neither the most challenging (vs, say, neurosurgery?) nor the most essential job in the world (vs what? air traffic controllers? SWAT team members? OB/GYN nurses?)

Mythologizing the suffering or sacrifices of teachers doesn't help the cause at all in the eyes of the taxpaying public. And it doesn't help attract the best or brightest to the profession.

by Anonymousreply 3506/25/2012

but r35 none of those professions u mentioned could have happen w/out a teacher.

by Anonymousreply 3606/25/2012

R33 It is for a public high school. Their salaries were listed in the newspaper for 2011. The P.E. teacher made $69,000 (that was one of the lowest), one Math teacher made 122,000 and one science teacher actually made 172,000 and the special ed teacher made 122,000.

by Anonymousreply 3706/25/2012

Teaching may not be as difficult as neurosurgery, and teachers may not be as immediately vital as SWAT officers and OB/GYNs, but you don't get neurosurgeons, SWAT team members, nurses, and OB/GYNs unless you have good teachers educating the young.

Teachers provide a base (for education, behavior, work ethic, and discipline) that other educators then build upon. They are, in fact, vital for a healthy, functioning society.

by Anonymousreply 3806/25/2012

r35, without teachers, we wouldn't have any neurosurgeons, air traffic controllers, SWAT team members or OB/GYN nurses. Such people don't just drop off trees -- they are once children who need to be taught, who need to learn, before they can pursue those careers. So, um, yeah, teachers ARE the most essential job in the world.

by Anonymousreply 3906/25/2012

r37, where are you? I'm getting my Master's and I may move there.

by Anonymousreply 4006/25/2012

Exactly [R24] that is why 30-60% of teachers in any given school are phoning it in. They went into education as a back up and realized its hard work and demoralizing if you aren't passionate about it.

I was an Ed. major my first two years of college and changed because I wasn't passionate about it. I want my kid taught by someone who truly loves educating and shaping kids lives, not someone who couldn't hack it in the school of business and thought summers off sounded nice. I still substitute teach occasionally and it saddens me to see the state of the American education system. Some teachers never cared, some have been beaten by the system, but the good teachers I see give me hope. They deal with over crowded classrooms, thinning budgets, administration interested in bottom lines and avoiding law suits, parents unconcerned with their children's well being let alone their education, and somehow retain their passion. I hope we can get more of them because it's the only way to regain a strong educational foundation for our kids.

I'll put away my soap box now.

by Anonymousreply 4106/25/2012

Nonsense R39. Germany gets along better with an apprentice system.

by Anonymousreply 4206/25/2012

Teaching looks so tiring - I teach four hours a week as part of my role as an academic, and that's enough for me. I put in about 20-30 hours prep for my teaching. During the summer I work on research, I'm never quite sure if high school teachers work on teaching prep, or they just have the time off (the ones I know, tend to have the time off).

by Anonymousreply 4306/25/2012

30% of American workers have college degrees. Only 11% of German workers have college degrees. Who are smarter and more productive? The Gerrmans, despite working only about 80% as many hours.

by Anonymousreply 4406/25/2012

Instead of "my friend makes this..." or "teachers around me make..." I went to the internets and searched for "teacher salaries by state" and found a sortable table for starting salary, average salary, and percentage of increase, as well as something called a "comfort factor."

CA has the highest AVERAGE teacher salaries, at about $60K, though that isn't a lot to live on if you're in a big city and/or a place where housing costs are high.

Average teacher salary in South Dakota (lowest) is close to $35K, which really isn't a lot for a fulltime professional.

Hawaii has the lowest "comfort index" which kind of makes sense if you consider that the average salary is $49K and Hawaii is the state with a very high cost of living.

by Anonymousreply 4506/25/2012

Just as with health care, where Americans pay too much for substandard care, we pay too much for substandard education. Let the teachers make what they make, but let's stop all the ridiculous glorification of a profession which has not distinguished itself.

by Anonymousreply 4606/25/2012

After all, if Americans are too stupid to vote for their own interests in elections, its the teachers who have failed to help them think critically.

by Anonymousreply 4706/25/2012

R43 the good ones do. The bad ones have the time off

by Anonymousreply 4806/25/2012

R40 Northern Illinois area. They supposedly get thousands of applicants so it's very competitive. Considering the economy who knows how they're keeping up those salaries. I think the news teachers are starting off between 40 to 60,000.

by Anonymousreply 4906/25/2012

So, r42 r44 r46 r47, why don't you move to Germany?

by Anonymousreply 5006/25/2012

I meant 'new teachers.' Also the super high salaries(130,000 to 170,000) are probably people who've been there 30+ years or close to retirement.

by Anonymousreply 5106/25/2012

The only people I know in the education system that make over a hundred grand are administrators.

Now THOSE people ARE over-paid.

by Anonymousreply 5206/25/2012

The teachers I had were lethargic and kinda dimwitted. No creative ideas or anything, just reading out of the book. Basically glorified daycare for teens.

Why can't school systems ever manage to stay in the black? Always begging for levies and going broke. Maybe they should have to minor in finance?

by Anonymousreply 5306/25/2012

My issue is with teachers who are total slackers. There are some really dedicated, professional teachers who deserve the high compensation they may be getting. However, they are weighed down by union protected drifters - that do the minimum and complain the loudest.

It seems that once a teacher gets tenured, some of them kick back and go on auto pilot. Unfortunately, they don't realize that a potentional tea-bag-republican is sitting in their class observeing the indifference and one day will become a cynical Fox News Viewer and voter.

Hate to say this, but I am glad I went to school in the 60s and 70s when smart, talented women chose teaching as a career. By the time I got to college, I was shocked at the quality of students that were Education majors.

I briefly dated a science teacher and was surprised how much free time he had and the fact that he was paid 20K more than I was (and I was working way more hours). He volunteered his salary level, I never asked. In the short three months we were together he had 'institutional' days where he had the option of attending a workshop - it wasn't required. There was a day where he had off to fill out report cards. Fortunately, his weekends were open.

Truly, I wish for the day when teaching is considered a valued profession that is respected and draws the brightest and the best into the field.

by Anonymousreply 5406/25/2012

I am a NYC public school teacher. I have a Masters degree plus 30 extra credits. After 15 years I am making $85,000. After taxes and a 10% TDA contribution( 7% interest) I take home $3850 a month. Under our current contract( which expired in 2009) I will receive raises after my 18th, 20th and 22nd years. It is a decent salary, but because I live in Manhattan, most of my take home pay is spent on rent, utilities, food, etc. I take one 2 week vacation and attend about 8-10 plays, concerts or sporting events per year. Aside from my TDA I do not save much money, but after 25 years (I will be 59) I can retire at full pension. I thank my union for providing me with these benefits. I do not consider myself underpaid, but I get angry when people criticize public employees' pensions.

by Anonymousreply 5506/26/2012

Yep, teachers live in McMansions with 4500 feet of space. They drive Jaguars and and Mercedes Benzes. All their kids attend prestigious prep schools that cost $20,000 a year. They vacation during those Christmas breaks in the south of FRance and spend the summers in their second homes in Nantucket. Their Chanel, Georgio Armani, and Gucci credit cards are paid off monthly. Oh, and Rosita cooks all of their meals when they are not dining out. (However, they will wear polyester to work, drive five year old Hondas to the Shop Rite, and say they spend the weekends with he barbeque in some low rent beach community not to flaunt their extreme wealth to the poor children whom they teach.

Oh wait, I'm getting them confused with politicians who demonize them. Never mind.

by Anonymousreply 5606/26/2012

OK, lets cut straight to the core of this argument. People love to trash teachers because the profession is predominately women. Most of you on this thread seem to believe that teaching is something a woman does until she gets married and should be paid accordingly. For all of the abuses of pensions and overtime in the police department and fire department, teachers are still the whipping boys (girls?). Why, because most people do not feel that women should be making $40,000.00 a year. Or men feel that teachers should be making less than they do. So, if a man makes 40,000.00 a year, then it follows that teachers are over paid.

And as to the high salaries, that is what happens when you work in a profession for decades. Thanks to tenure, it is very difficult to fire a teacher because she is too old and expensive. This is a good thing. It is wrong to get rid of good experiences teachers simply because some bean counter in the central office can only see the numbers. Bad teachers should be let go at any point, but to get rid of good teachers because they are now making 90,000.00 after 20 years in the profession is wrong.

As to the poster spouting off about Germany. Yes, Germany has more trade schools than in the USA, but who the hell do you think teaches at trade schools? Apprentice programs in Germany do not mean that you leave school at 16 and start following around a plumber to learn plumbing. You still need to go to a trade school and get a certificate.

by Anonymousreply 5706/26/2012

freeper troll flypaper thread

by Anonymousreply 5806/26/2012

You may be right r58 but one does get tired of hearing how underpaid teachers are when most of them are average at best and have lots of paid vacations.

by Anonymousreply 5906/26/2012

Thanks for the hot tip, freeper troll.

by Anonymousreply 6006/26/2012

Teachers aren't paid enough. And you know why? Because for the past 150 years it's been considered a WOMAN'S job in this country. If MEN made up the overwhelming number of teaching employees, I have NO doubt that teaching salaries would be at least twice what they are.

by Anonymousreply 6106/26/2012

Northwest suburbs of Philadelphia here. School districts in the area include Wissahickon, Upper Dublin, Springfield, Hatboro-Horsham, etc. Average teacher salary: 75K plus bennies. Read it and weep.

As I was leaving the gym this morning, a 35 year old elementary school gym teacher was driving onto the lot in her Benz C class. Normally she comes in a 5:00AM, but with summer vacation she can come it at 8:00AM. After all, the whole day is hers.

by Anonymousreply 6206/26/2012

This old argument again. You can see pretty clearly from these responses the people who get it and the ones who don't - and the ones who don't come off as such jealous cunts. Look babes, if you can do it, then why don't you?

Because you can't. Teaching is very hard. The end. If you're lucky to get one of those 70K dream jobs that only seem to exist in these stupid arguments, then you deserve every penny of it. Most of us are toiling for much less than that, and for people that have no idea what we actually do for their kids.

by Anonymousreply 6306/26/2012

[quote]During the 8 hours that we spend with your children we risk our safety when dealing with behaviorally dysfunctional children. If we say or do the wrong thing in response, we risk having our careers terminated.

8AM - 3PM = 7 hours (less 1hr for lunch)

6 hours teaching + 2 hrs prep = 8 hours. Same as everyone else.

And tenured teachers are impossible to fire no matter what they do.

by Anonymousreply 6406/26/2012

You think 75k is a lot of money, r62? For a professional with a college degree who has to work with kids all day?

Good lord, some of you are out of touch.

by Anonymousreply 6506/26/2012

Nobody "has" to work with kids. Teachers WANT to work with kids or they don't become teachers.

And a college degree for teaching K-8 is complete overkill.

by Anonymousreply 6606/26/2012

Cry me a fucking river. Starting salaries for teachers where I live (Westchester County, outside NYC) are $52K per year. I am going to have to sell my house and move because the property taxes, which include school taxes, are so high I can't afford to live here anymore - nearly $20,000 for a 3 bedroom 1964 ranch.

I have 20+ years in marketing and make barely twice the salary of a new teacher. Tenured teachers make far more than I do. I regularly put in 10 and 12 hour days, spend countless hours of unpaid time on travel, spend hundreds of unreimbursed dollars on books and magazines to keep current in my field. I could make more money if I worked in NYC, but that would add a 2+ hour commute that would cost about $5,000 per year.

Luckily, I get 4 weeks vacation, but can't take more than a week at a time, and am constantly on call, checking and responding to emails when I am on vacation.

by Anonymousreply 6706/26/2012

Would someone please clarify vacations. Because when my mother taught, summer vacations were not paid. You get get your salary spread over a 12 month period, but you were only paid for the months that you were actually teaching. Many teachers had to take summer jobs or teach summer school to make it through the summer.

This may vary from state to state.

FYI, my mother taught through the 1980s.

by Anonymousreply 6806/26/2012

Most teachers do not get an hour for lunch. Many of them have recess or cafeteria duty or just have the same lunch period as the kids if they are teaching in middle or high schools.

by Anonymousreply 6906/26/2012

Bullshit, R65, you're the one out of touch. I have two degrees, 20+ plus years of experience and certification (in accounting) and you know what I made last year: $84K for 12 months work, including a lot of evening/weekend hours. And I don't have a cushy pension plan to fall back on either.

by Anonymousreply 7006/26/2012

Canadian teachers with some years under their belts now earn 95k plus bens.

by Anonymousreply 7106/26/2012

r69, where I live, they hire "cafeteria moms" - part-timers to staff the lunchrooms and playgrounds. The teachers don't. Not in their contract.

I don't begrudge anyone union benefits. I'd be jealous, but I chose not to pursue a career in the public sector. However, this bitching and moaning has got to stop because the private sector - the majority of the US workforce - don't enjoy nearly the same benefits and never will.

My parents were able to retire at 62 with full pensions and lifelong health care plans. I will have to work until I drop dead.

by Anonymousreply 7206/26/2012

[quote]spend countless hours of unpaid time on travel, spend hundreds of unreimbursed dollars on books and magazines to keep current in my field.

That's all tax-deductible. Talk to your accountant.

by Anonymousreply 7306/26/2012

[quote]I have two degrees, 20+ plus years of experience and certification (in accounting) and you know what I made last year: $84K for 12 months work, including a lot of evening/weekend hours. And I don't have a cushy pension plan to fall back on either.

Well maybe YOU should be in a union. Blaming the teachers for still having them and having decent pay and bennies isn't going to make your working conditions better.

by Anonymousreply 7406/26/2012

I'm always fascinated by this argument. Essentially, the teacher-haters are saying, "Listen, every other job in America is virtual slavery. Why should teachers be exempt from the general shittiness of the American job scene?"

This has it exactly backwards.

Americans shouldn't band together to make teachers' jobs worse. They should band together to make their own jobs better.

But of course, so many idiots in this country believe that Rick Santelli knows a fucking thing. So we're all doomed.

by Anonymousreply 7506/26/2012

r73, time is not tax deductable. Books and magazines are, but I don't have enough deductions to itemize. Which brings me to another rant -- the need to overhaul the tax code.

by Anonymousreply 7606/26/2012

I taught for three years in Chicago. My starting salary was $63,600/yr (2008). I could choose to receive my salary spread over either the academic or the calendar year (I chose the academic year because I can budget). The benefits were outstanding for both union and non-union employees. Honestly, it was the easiest job I've ever had. I taught freshman and senior math. Prep time was minimal because the texts I used were very straight forward. Grading math is straight forward as well so I typically did it during my free period. My summers were mostly free (at least 11 of the 13 weeks were free). We had 3 weeks off at Christmas.

My co-workers were a horror, however. Psychologically, many never graduated from high school "in their heads" so their behavior mimicked that of our worst students. I left the HS to teach at a college. The pay is lower but I work only 8-10 hours/week.

Now the Chicago teachers are talking about striking. Most would never be able to get another job with the $$ anywhere near what they make now. They should tread carefully.

by Anonymousreply 7706/26/2012

R73, not all. I believe teachers can only deduct $500.00 per year for classroom supplies. Anything above that is not deductible.

by Anonymousreply 7806/26/2012

[quote]Northwest suburbs of Philadelphia here. School districts in the area include Wissahickon, Upper Dublin, Springfield, Hatboro-Horsham, etc. Average teacher salary: 75K plus bennies. Read it and weep.

they make a lot less than that in Philly

by Anonymousreply 7906/26/2012

[quote]And a college degree for teaching K-8 is complete overkill.


by Anonymousreply 8006/26/2012

[quote]I have 20+ years in marketing and make barely twice the salary of a new teacher.

that's because marketing is glorified paper-pushing and teaching is a real profession, an essential one when it comes to public schooling. I honestly don't see why you deserve any more than your have.

by Anonymousreply 8106/26/2012

r81, I never said I deserve to make more than I do. However, I do resent that I can't afford to stay in my house because the school taxes are so high because some teachers and administrators are overpaid.

On the flip side, I have a cousin with a Master's degree in education. She graduated in 2009 and worked 3 part-time retail jobs because she couldn't get a teaching job anywhere in NY. She moved to Alabama for a teaching job last year. If she lasts, she's born to be a teacher. If not, she'll end up as a paper pusher like most of us.

by Anonymousreply 8206/26/2012

A teacher friend of mine makes well over 70K a year with all of her bonuses. She has a masters and has been teaching for many years. She lives very high on the hog for a teacher but I also thinks she was left money by her parents and perhaps got some loot from an ex-husband. She is thinking about retiring early because of all the b.s. that the schools are implementing. Increasing workload and being told to pass all students whether they should or not. She said the students are getting passing grades without being able to read, write and understand basic reading comprehension. Something about the district not getting federal money unless the students do pass the standardized tests.

by Anonymousreply 8306/26/2012

[quote]I'm always fascinated by this argument. Essentially, the teacher-haters are saying, "Listen, every other job in America is virtual slavery. Why should teachers be exempt from the general shittiness of the American job scene?"

[quote]This has it exactly backwards.

Exactly, R75. It's small-minded meanness when someone would rob from a teacher, not to have that benefit for himself but just for the smug satisfaction of knowing that the teacher no longer has it.

The low level begrudgery doesn't even rise to the level of zero sum game thinking.

OP has half a point inasmuch as there has been some progress against a past pattern of teachers toiling away for a few crumbs from society's table. But why is the modest (and uneven) success of some teachers the failing of so many dickheads in this thread?

And no, I'm not a teacher, nor a union man. I'm just someone who, when he sees some small success in someone else, doesn't feel failure in myself.

by Anonymousreply 8406/26/2012

You are missing the point.I don't begrudge teachers a living wage. I do begrudge them a living wage when they've raised our children to be so stupid they don't even vote for their own best interests.

by Anonymousreply 8506/26/2012

It pisses me off when people lump college professors and teachers together. Professors don't get the summer off! We might be able to work elsewhere (in a different country) but we are working.

by Anonymousreply 8606/26/2012

I'd really like to be a teacher. I have a B.A. and a J.D. How can I go about it? I applied for NY Teaching Fellows last year, but wasn't accepted. Any advice?

by Anonymousreply 8706/26/2012

[quote]I do begrudge them a living wage when they've raised our children to be so stupid they don't even vote for their own best interests.

Teachers are expected to "raise our children" now? I thought that was the job of the parents.

So you actually lay the blame for the state of our country entirely with school teachers? Parents, politicians, religious institutions, the media, etc...they all get a pass because the mess we're in now is completely the fault of school teachers?


by Anonymousreply 8806/26/2012

[quote]I have 20+ years in marketing and make barely twice the salary of a new teacher.

Why the hell do you think you're entitled to make twice as a much as teacher for doing fucking marketing, a useless "profession" if ever there was one?

Why should teachers be willing to settle for even less than half your salary just to make it possible for you to keep living in a place that clearly you can't actually afford to live? Your real problem is that you need to get off your ass and find a higher-paying job, not that teachers should be earning less so that you can pocket more.

by Anonymousreply 8906/26/2012

[quote]I do begrudge them a living wage when they've raised our children to be so stupid they don't even vote for their own best interests.

Herein lies the problem. Teachers are NOT a substitute for parents. 90% of the problems with todays education can be traced back to the parents. Parents do not want to actually do the parenting at home, but they either want to micromanage the teachers or they dump the kids with the teachers and expect the teacher to solve all the problems. Some of these parents see teachers as dry cleaners. You drop off the kid a 5 years old and pick up perfect child when he/she turns 18. Teachers' time is wasted far to much with worry about whether bake sales teach good nutrition or if Santa Claus is permitted in the classroom rather than actually teaching the kids the basic three Rs.

In other words, if your child is too stupid to vote; it is your fault, not the teacher's.

by Anonymousreply 9006/26/2012

Teachers are supposed to teach critical thinking. Instead our children are yahoos who buy anything they see on t.v.

by Anonymousreply 9106/26/2012

Pretty judgmental to call marketing a useless profession. He's merely pointing out, like the OP, why do we constantly hear teacher's are underpaid when some of them are making a lot more than the average pay. And his salary isn't costing the tax payers anything!!! Eighty percent of my tax bill is going to the school districts.

Like I've posted, I don't begrudge teachers their high salaries where I live because they get good results. But the suggestion is put out there that somehow they're underpaid and that's not true everywhere.

Here's an article from last year talking about a school district where 55% of the teachers have 6 figure salaries. Of course this is in a wealthy area where you don't have to be total babysitters to the kids.

Yet the school teachers in Chicago, where they're literally taking their life in their hands, and they have to deal with neglectful parents, gangs, poverty the pay doesn't compare. It's there that the teachers need hazard pay.

by Anonymousreply 9206/26/2012

I think good teachers deserve every penny and vacation day they can get.

My concern is the number of teachers I have met who are stupid. It is upsetting when my sister's kids come home with notes from a teacher that are on a grammar level of grade 6.

I went to a state school, so it may be different at other colleges (which I'm glad about if so), but the education department was full of stupid sorority girls and others who were failing out of other majors. The GPA for acceptance into the education major was one of the lowest at the school, only comparable to the majors the athletes flocked to.

How can we weed out the stupid ones? I don't know. But for every teacher I had who I would right now give part of my salary to because that person was so worthy, I remember having teachers who were absolutely worthless and obviously not concerned whether we "got it" or not.

Do the amazing people who are dedicated teachers make the same money and benefits as the others?

And the constant bitching that their jobs are underpaid is ridiculous. They are making a decent living and that's all any of us can ask for. Many jobs are worthy of more pay for the hard work they do--social workers come to mind--but it really only bothers me when someone is not paid to live comfortably and afford retirement.

Teachers have health care, retirement, vacation, and good salaries. No, they are not rich, but that shouldn't be a surprise to them.

I would only say that I would wholeheartedly agree on discretionary bonuses for those not phoning it in, and yes...there are many of them doing just that, just like at every other job, I suppose.

by Anonymousreply 9306/26/2012

[quote]He's merely pointing out, like the OP, why do we constantly hear teacher's are underpaid when some of them are making a lot more than the average pay.

No, he's bitching that he only makes TWICE as much as a teacher, poor thing.

by Anonymousreply 9406/26/2012

Um, hello, I'm bitching because after 20 years of professional experience I make barely half of what a 22 year old teacher just out of college makes.

I will be the first to agree that marketing is completely useless. But I am good at it. And it helps keep a company's stock price high, which is what is funding teachers' cushy pension plans.

As I've said, I don't begrudge teachers anything. They have a sweet deal. I just don't want to hear them bitching and moaning about something they chose and are well compensated for.

NY passed a tax cap, but municipalities are able to over-ride it. When I bought my house 10 years ago, the taxes were 12K. Now they are over 18K and rising every year. There are 841 students in my district. The school budget is $85 million, with a staff:student ratio of 12:1. I have not had a salary increase in 6 years, I am lucky to have a job. There is no way I can afford the out of control budget increases paid for by my taxes.

by Anonymousreply 9506/26/2012

#93 nails it- thread closed.

by Anonymousreply 9606/26/2012

r93 highlights the problem about schools of education. I went to Columbia and took two classes at Teachers College. The majority of my TC classmates, and they were education graduate students, were just stupid people. After that experience, I started asking people (other professionals and academics) what their opinions were of ed. majors and, without exception, the opinions were negative (sadly, the same was true of social work majors). Worse still, the data support the negative opinions.

by Anonymousreply 9706/26/2012

[quote]Bullshit, R65, you're the one out of touch. I have two degrees, 20+ plus years of experience and certification (in accounting) and you know what I made last year: $84K for 12 months work, including a lot of evening/weekend hours.

Hon, if you're only making $84K a year after 20+ years of experience, that's entirely your own fucking fault. I was making more than that before I even turned 30, and that's with only a bachelor's degree to my credit. You clearly lack the ambition, the intellect, the will and/or the people & management skills required to escape middle management. You also made the conscious choice to stay in Westchester (White Plains, perhaps?) instead of a market with much more lucrative marketing jobs -- and no, I don't just mean Manhattan -- so you've most likely hit your area's glass ceiling in terms of salary. Your school taxes have gone up because Westchester is one of the best areas for schools in the entire NYC area, and thus there's a competitive market for cream-of-the-crop teachers. You are more than welcome to relocate to a town with a shitty school district and pay far less.

Anyway, quit bitching about teachers when the one you're really mad at is yourself.

by Anonymousreply 9806/26/2012

I am a teacher and make 33,000 a year before taxes and all that jazz...

by Anonymousreply 9907/06/2012

It's odd because the same logic being used to argue teachers are useless was, presumably, taught to them by someone.

by Anonymousreply 10007/06/2012

I'm not going to get into salaries, but if teachers are going to claim they have the most important job on the planet then they need to be held more accountable than they are currently held. No tenure, etc. Then again, they need much more control in the classroom...paddle anyone? Salaries should start out low and as they prove themselves should dramatically increase. Screw up and your fired. Of course, republican/conservative and cheap ass Americans would never approve paying more taxes to pay teachers more. I'd love to approve a 10% cut in military spending to pay for education....but those damn repugs/ocnservatives again.

by Anonymousreply 10107/06/2012

ha! i'd love to see you bitchy queens try to control a classroom of kids. you'd be crying in the principal's office when they called you phaggot!

by Anonymousreply 10207/06/2012

Everyone who complains about teachers not being held accountable and that it should be easier to get rid of bad teachers has never been a teacher.

School administrators are among the most political people I've ever seen and reward ass-kissers and punish independent competent teachers without being held accountable themselves.

Every school principal I've known has been the kind of person who would decide he or she wanted to get rid of a teacher and then proceed to make that person's life miserable until they left voluntarily. And it never has anything to do with whether the person is a good teacher or not, it's always about school politics and who's the best ass-kisser.

I'm not a teacher myself, but I've had teachers and administrators in my family and among my friends, and I can hardly stand to speak to some of my relatives who have been school principals, knowing how they have treated their teachers -- and bragged about it at family gatherings.

by Anonymousreply 10307/06/2012

My brother is smart - he wanted to get into teaching and chose math. Much easier grading, and teacher has the upper hand in that there is no subjectivity about what's correct/incorrect. He makes in the mid $70s but I will say he earns it. He is a sucker for needy kids who have a crap home environment (he is a married father of two, very "apple pie" home environment) and he has ended up being an ad hoc 1:1 tutor often, and social worker on more than one occasion. All in all when I see how hard he works during the school year but how he gets summers off, I think he gets paid fairly. I make more but I have to work in an office with adults. There is a certain life satisfaction, mission type thing he gets from being a teacher, that I do not get in my job. That is part of what attracts the good ones to the field.

by Anonymousreply 10407/06/2012

" I make more but I have to work in an office with adults. "

And that entitles you to more money?


by Anonymousreply 10507/06/2012

I wonder what district a teacher states that they work many hours. The reason our kids barely have time for lunch and feel like their day is a race is because teachers union's refuse to work a regular full time day. Most districts the school day is 7 hours or less. I know many of the teachers and they laugh and say they never ever work outside of school, ever. I think they do the first couple of yrs, and after that they use the same day after day, year after year. All of my kids have had the exact same worksheets, books, project, with no change at all. They get 3 months off plus tons of add'l days, so basically if you add it up by the day, they make much more. Our school is literally locked tight within 10 min of the bell ringing, with no one left at all. Parents who work private sector jobs get home 2 hrs later, and pay so much more for benefits. Also, why do teachers even make more than 12 month employees in the public sector? That part makes no sense. My brother works for the state, but makes less with more years in. Teachers make more than police officers and fire fighters, who work crazy hours and risk their lives, and work 12 months a year. Teachers in our district make over $70k after 12 yrs of teaching. Most people in the corporate environment don't make that, unless they are in management, and that means many many long hours. Teachers know they have a great deal, which is why they constantly try to tell everyone how much they work. I would like to see them put in a regular 8 hour day. and why when they do conferences do they get 2 days off following, because they had to work an evening. I work 2 evenings a week, don't get paid extra, and no one brings me dinner!

by Anonymousreply 10612/28/2012

Here's some Australian information:

by Anonymousreply 10712/28/2012

R106, i would love to put in an eight hour day. Most weekdays are ten to eleven hour days, though on the weekends I usually work closer to eight hour days.

Are you really so dumb that you think if kids are not in school at a certain moment teachers aren't working?

by Anonymousreply 10812/28/2012

I've always thought that school administrators take advantage of the fact that teachers, especially in the younger grades, are women. Nurturing women who will work extra hours, "volunteer" for committees and to be faculty sponsors of clubs, spend their own money on supplies, etc., rather than have the kids do without.

by Anonymousreply 10912/28/2012

Now I'm reconsidering and thinking teachers aren't paid enough now that they either have to put up with mad lunatics coming to schools and shooting them up or per the NRA have to come to school armed and get trained in crime prevention like they're trying out for the SWAT team.

Also some teachers pay for books and extras to give to the kids in their class. They have to deal with kids nutrition because for some , the only meals they get is the ones at school. They have to deal with sex education because parents are too embarrassed, lazy or crazy religious to deal with it. They have to know how to handle everything from depressed kids to bullying.

Some teachers also perform double duty and are coaches, homework aftercare workers, and supervisor of many after school clubs. So while their hours seem short, some are getting home very, very late at night. For example, for a band teacher, if they have an event then by the time they're done with the clean up you're talking after midnight. The same for any of the coaches on the sports team.

So when you see the teachers salaries, it's probably not a salary just for teaching that you're seeing and it's not just for the straight hours you imagine they're keeping but including all the overtime they have to put in to get the job done.

by Anonymousreply 11012/28/2012

Oh, shut up, r109. Some of the most self centered teachers I've had were women. They were always the ones to turn a blind eye to bullying and only interested in clocking their hours and leaving when the bell goes off.

by Anonymousreply 11112/28/2012

R103, thank you for your post. My current principal fits your description exactly.

by Anonymousreply 11212/28/2012

R7, full of costs without understanding the facilities costs, accountancy costs, administrative costs etc.

As for unpaid hours, you really aren't the only one.

by Anonymousreply 11312/28/2012

Who said we were the only ones with unpaid hours? The response was directed at the person who implied whenever kids arent in class teachers arent working.

by Anonymousreply 11412/28/2012

Why "shut up," r111? Is that how you respond during conversations in real life? Where is the civility?

by Anonymousreply 11512/28/2012

The vast majority of teachers went into teachers so they could work part time. If you calculate 65% time the teachers make way more than other professionals and I disagree that they work addl hours. Most do not work outside of school. Maybe high school teachers but not elementary. And they don't even work an eight he day. Nearly all professionals in the private sector work way more with same pay or less plus benefits are way less. How can any rational person believe that teachers should make more than police or other public workers who work year round? Forget comparing against private, fact is teachers make way more per year than other govt professionals with same education and yrs of service. Their pensions are also much higher. So why does a teacher make way more than an accountant, police, firefighter, or any other public employee whe they only work 65% time?

by Anonymousreply 11601/13/2013

"Most do not work outside of school."

Provide the corroborating link, Republican.

by Anonymousreply 11701/13/2013

I don't care if they work "part time", they deserve every penny and more. The problem in education, like every industry, the fish stinks from the head. Administrative pay is outrageously high, at the senior levels.

by Anonymousreply 11801/13/2013

Name one profession where its practitioners agree that they're paid fairly.

Most people who work think others are paid too much and they aren't paid enough.

by Anonymousreply 11901/13/2013

No kidding, R118. In NYC, Bloomberg's corporate deform DOE wasted $80 million on a computer program now being phased out. That is a lot of money that could have been used for smaller classes (the average NYC class size is over 30), supplies, computers, school aides, counselors, etc. Instead it went to IBM.

by Anonymousreply 12001/13/2013

[quote]Their salaries were listed in the newspaper for 2011.

Why the fuck would a newspaper publish salaries??

by Anonymousreply 12101/13/2013

Still no o e has an answer. Why do teachers make more than other public employees and have higher paying pensions and then in addition are only 65% time workers, which is by choice. They could work summers but choose not to. Unions promote mediocrity an the teachers union is the biggest one. It is causing our country to go into bankruptcy. Why should a teacher receive full medical after retirement. That is unheard of and we can't afford it as a country. Because they make so much is why classes are so large. Their contracts clearly state that they already receive 2 or more hours a day for prep work. They don't work from home face it

by Anonymousreply 12201/13/2013

Here's an answer, [R122]: I worked in publishing through most of my twenties before becoming a teacher about fourteen years ago. There is NOTHING that I have ever done that is as physically, mentally, and emotionally demanding every single day as teaching. Some days it's downright draining. I work on my feet for at least five hours a day, then spend my "clearly stated" two hours of prep work time running around preparing lessons, making photocopies, returning emails, going to staff development meetings, filling out paperwork...oh, and grading essays, projects, and other assignments. In short, I spend that prep time doing more work than I ever did in an entire day in my previous career, then go back and teach some more. And sorry to disappoint you, but I frequently take work home to do in the evening or on weekends and holidays. Yes, after 14 years I'm finally making fairly decent money (for a single man), but that's also after more than two years with no raise, and after I earned a bachelor's and master's degree, and after I kept on with my education to earn 30 more graduate credits to move into a higher salary lane. Maintaining my certification requires that I continue my education with additional coursework every few years. I'll be the first to admit that my generous vacation time and a pension plan that will (hopefully) provide me with a decent retirement are very nice benefits that most workers in this nation do not enjoy--but that's not a reason to fight to take them away from teachers. We should be fighting to provide those kinds of benefits to all workers. Our schools are most certainly not the reason our country is "going into bankruptcy," easy though that knee-jerk reaction may be. Neither are our unions. Maybe you should look into some other explanations, [R122], starting with the stranglehold huge corporations seem to have gained on our political process....

by Anonymousreply 12301/13/2013

Teacher salaries vary GREATLY between states. A few states may pay around 60 thousand but in the majority of the states the salary is around 30-40 thousand a year.

by Anonymousreply 12401/13/2013

Not all teachers bitch about money or stress. I know several who love teaching.

by Anonymousreply 12501/13/2013

I don't have kids so I don't really have a dog in this fight but personally, I don't think teachers get paid enough. I've been around my nieces/nephews and their friend enough to know there's not enough money on this planet to become a teacher. Not to mention their parents (esp my sister) who think their kids are little angels who do no wrong. For all those who think teaching is such a cushy overpaid job, why aren't you applying?

by Anonymousreply 12601/13/2013

Demonization of teachers and unions is a way to get the middle and lower classes to blame each other for the heartache of bad salaries and unemployment.

by Anonymousreply 12701/13/2013

Maybe in the higher grades a teacher may from time to time do work above the regular work day but is is out of the norm and never ever happens in the lower grades. Teachers make more than most private sector workers and nearly all public workers but are only part time employees. And we all have stress at work but the rest of the workforce doesn't get a 3 month break and 2 over holidays another one in the spring. Most people get 3 weeks all year and do not have a guaranteed job. By having a guarantee and paid only on years of service there is no incentive to perform well And I disagree to say a teacher has more stress than police. Name one teacher who has ever worked a holiday, overnight, a weekend or risk their life everyday Name a teacher who works while on vacation. None. The rest of the world does And the rest of the workforce has also gone for years without raises also Still even if we think jobs are equally as demanding teachers make way more because they only work 65% time

by Anonymousreply 12801/25/2013

"Name one teacher who has ever worked a holiday, overnight, a weekend or risk their life everyday Name a teacher who works while on vacation. None."

What mendacious scum you are, R128. Many teachers plan during vacations and at night, and risk their lives teaching volatile, dangerous kids.

"Teachers make more than most private sector workers"

Data. Now.

by Anonymousreply 12901/25/2013

It's not the teachers who bitch about their salaries. As I said earlier I know several teachers and they love their jobs. They also love the time off. So lets not blame the teachers for the bitching. It's not them. They deserve and appreciate what they have.

by Anonymousreply 13001/25/2013

R128, there's more physical risk in teaching than you may realize.

A tiny woman I know took a job teaching English in an inner-city high school. She was hoping she could make a difference. She had been teaching about two months when a boy in one of her classes attacked her, hurting her badly enough she had to be hospitalized. When she went back to work, he was sitting there grinning at her.

She quit teaching that day and never went back.

You need to seriously reconsider what teaching entails. Not all teaching jobs are as cushy as those in places like Newtown where the principal and some of the teachers gave their lives to protect their students while others took enormous risks.

by Anonymousreply 13101/25/2013

Very few of the responses in this thread count in the pension and medical benefits. I live in NJ, and they are quite generous (as they are with the police & fire depts).

The other thing that's not mentioned is the job security.

The salient fact is that in the recent economic downturn, many down-sized corporate professionals were eager to try to get a teaching job. They did the math, and with the benefits, they were dying to get one of those jobs.

by Anonymousreply 13201/25/2013

I live in Denver. A friend of mine was an elementary school teacher in a wealthy suburb, and made about 45k a year. She was offered a job teaching middle school in a poor suburb (aurora) with a salary of $60k a year. She took it, and has been miserable ever since. The kids and parents are nightmares. She has been threatened and cursed out by parents and kids, because she disciplines their kids for acting out in school.

by Anonymousreply 13301/25/2013

"The other thing that's not mentioned is the job security."

Is that a New Jersey thing? It's definitely not that way in the South - the job security of a teacher is just like the job security of any other job.

The highest attrition rate in education comes from the 'slumming' ex-corporates... They leave after a couple of years, because they can't handle it.

by Anonymousreply 13401/25/2013

My sister got a Masters in Education, but only after she spent 6 years in undergrad to get the grades to get into a Masters program. All private colleges, all funded through loans. Now she has decided she cannot handle teaching and is working at Starbucks.

She has the emotional maturity of a teen, though she is well into her 30s. I think she thought it would be easy, but it is not.

by Anonymousreply 13501/25/2013

I am the child of a teacher in NY state. There are teachers in upper class counties making close to 100k there are also people risking there life for barely 30k to go the poorest neighborhoods in the inner city. You also have Cadillac health insurance plans with the best plans going to teachers in the cushy districts with higher property tax rates. I think the solution is salary cuts for the people at the top pay rates (especially superintendants and administrators in Albany)and raises for those on the lower scale but you will never see that happen because of the greed of the people with these salaries. Another dirty little secret no one will tell you in NY state workers can retire with nearly the same salary as when they were working if they stick around for long enough. I believe in Unions but they very well can be corrupt pretending no reform is needed is silly. I

by Anonymousreply 13601/25/2013

[quote] Name one teacher who has ever worked a holiday, overnight, a weekend or risk their life everyday Name a teacher who works while on vacation. None.

God, what a fucking idiot you are. Nearly every teacher spends a good portion of their weekends grading papers and preparing lessons (Do you think those papers just grade themselves?). If a teacher coaches a sport or advises a student club or organization, they may very well spend EVERY weekend during the school year working.

by Anonymousreply 13701/25/2013

Good thing R136's parent wasn't an English teacher.

by Anonymousreply 13801/25/2013

Teachers earning over 100K have put decades into teaching and earned degrees beyond the B.A. to move up the salary scale. Why is no one allowed to earn a decent living in this country except those on Wall Street?

As for cushy benefits, why take away instead of fighting to get back? Why not fight to introduce single-payer or legislation to curb rampant premium increases so we can ALL have decent benefits?

by Anonymousreply 13901/26/2013

Let's be real here. I would have no problem with teachers getting paid more if they actually had to WORK for their degree. My dog could get a degree in education. If you went to college and took very difficult courses like I did (chemistry, biology, higher math, physics etc), and your roommate was an education major- the difference is laughable! I would agree to higher salaries for teachers if their coursework were a lot more challenging. As it is now, with the ease of obtaining the degree, the fact that most teachers teach the same thing year after year, and getting the summer off, weeks off at holidays etc... They are doing just fine.

by Anonymousreply 14001/26/2013

[quote]Maybe in the higher grades a teacher may from time to time do work above the regular work day but is is out of the norm and never ever happens in the lower grades

You are a douche.

by Anonymousreply 14101/26/2013

Seeing a teacher's actual lunch is, like, so depressing. Not to mention, her bra strap.

by Anonymousreply 14201/26/2013

It's not the degree that dictates respect, R140... It's the work that follows. Go placate and then inform 35 violent, unruly kids, and then get back to us.

If someone tells me that they have a degree in a natural science or math, I'm not necessarily impressed. Tell me what you're doing with it that changes people for the better, and I might be.

by Anonymousreply 14301/26/2013

Hey 143- ARE you my college roommate? Sound stupid enough to be... "Go placate and then inform 35 violent, unruly kids, and then get back to us." You are either an English or logic major, right? Your job description sounds like an ad for a prison guard- saving the world!

by Anonymousreply 14401/26/2013

That was barely intelligible, R144. I get the sense that your roommate routinely dumbed down his speech for you.

by Anonymousreply 14501/26/2013

143/145: no, my roommate was out getting drunk every night before his unbelievably lame ass classes the next day. I was studying every night for 6 years learning how to adjust your psych/dementia meds so you could babysit my kids all day and enjoy your long summers off.

by Anonymousreply 14601/26/2013

(R36) I am so tired of that rationale. I seem to remember some pretty crappy teachers I had in grade school. I tend to think a student does well because of the teacher and the student's personal drive. Now, the Nursing educators I had in college I can thank more directly for my career. In fact, in addition to working in a busy ER where I too, am always ON, I teach at the college I went to. But, I don't assume my contributions are the most important factor in a student's life. Get over yourself.

by Anonymousreply 14701/26/2013

Well, you deserve a medal, R146! Shoveling meds into small bags at CVS definitely makes your Republican self a better person than those useless teachers.

by Anonymousreply 14801/26/2013

Boy, some of you really hate teachers. You hate them so much that you make up shit and believe it.

1. I was a double major so I took all the advance classes and all the education classes. I also have my masters plus another 30 credits beyond that.

2. I have 170 students. How am I going to grade all their work in the 40 minutes i get as prep? The teachers I work with stay late all the time. We often leave several hours after school and then hours at home.

3. I haven’t had a raise in 5 years. My rent has gone up. Food prices have gone up...well, everything has gone up except my salary. I don’t teach because of the paycheck, but it would be nice to be able to pay off my bills and have some money left over for emergencies.

4. Health insurance? You don’t want me to have that while i’m surrounded by sick kids. Your compassion and kindness is overwhelming.

5. I’m not just not teaching my subject area, I’m making people. I have kids who live lives you wouldn’t wish on anyone and I have to help them succeed regardless of what their lives are like outside of school. I have to deal with their issues that can be illness, abuse, loved one’s death, and many other things. Again, I’m working with people, not robots.

I would write more but I know all these words are confusing to you.

by Anonymousreply 14901/26/2013

R146 is hilarious. Remember that he is the righteous barrier between those decongestants and the meth cooks. He's doing a great job!

by Anonymousreply 15001/26/2013

Hey 148- don't diss my friends who work at CVS- they routinely save your ass from mistakes made by overworked MD's who are careless. Oh, and sorry to disabuse you, but I work and teach at a large university hospital (and I'm a lifelong bleeding heart liberal).

by Anonymousreply 15101/26/2013

So R146 hates teachers and doctors... In R146's perfect world, only pharmacists would be recognized as pillars of society.

Give us a break, R146. You are clearly insecure about what you do, so you lash out at others who you feel are somehow beneath you. Classic covetous sociopath behavior.

by Anonymousreply 15201/26/2013

Teaching kids seems like an overwhelming, way too stressful job. I teach at the college level and get pissy b/c I have to attend a couple of meetings in the morning which cut into my gym time. I love my job but I deal with adults, thus, it's not bad. My friends and family members who teach grade school kids seem to constantly be under stress from principals/administrators, neglectful parents, damaged children, and inane school policies.

My sister in law in FL wakes up at 5am to get to her classroom by 6:30am to set up and prep, then she works until 3pm, comes home for a two hour nap and then wakes up to grade papers, email colleagues, attempt to reach uncaring parents who think their children are brilliant and don't deserve C's, and manage the ego of those around her. Then she goes to bed and the same routine the next day. She spends her summer taking workshops/development courses, learning about new rubrics, and dealing with administrative crap.

My best friend is teaching special ed kids in the Bronx and is told that she can't stay at her school after 4pm b/c it's against policy. Means that she must lug her student's workbooks to her home to imput grades b/c the principal doesn't want anyone in the school premises. This also creates a problem when she wants to meet with parents since she doesn't have free periods. At home she has to prepare for the next lesson, she takes two classes in the evenings and works weekends on more lessons and her own coursework. That on top of dealing with conduct disordered 10 year olds who have threatened her life and her student's life but apparently, due to policy, students parent isn't forced to transfer the darling to a new school with more appropriate services. Instead, my friend has to deal with the mini sociopaths who scare and bully the other 30 children in the classroom.

My sister in law has been teaching for 25 years and my best friend for one year. No way would I want their job, whether in the beautiful, warm, rich area in FL or in dirt poor the Bronx.

by Anonymousreply 15301/26/2013

[quote]As for cushy benefits, why take away instead of fighting to get back? Why not fight to introduce single-payer or legislation to curb rampant premium increases so we can ALL have decent benefits?

R139, We already have single-payer healthcare in this country -- it's called Medicare, and no one under the age of 50 is going to collect on it. Anyone over the age of 25 should know there was a Utopia where the government was in charge of everything & guaranteed all workers a wonderful life -- it was called the Soviet Union.

by Anonymousreply 15401/26/2013

[quote]Why do people say that teachers aren't paid fairly?

Because Republicans hate teachers who aren't conservative bible thumpers, which they generally tend not to be.

Because teachers inject too much hyperbole into their arguments about pay.

Because most people who went to public school remember their own teachers as a mix - some were great, some were burnt out, some were amateurs, some were just never fit for the job in the first place. They're not a homogenous group.

Because it's hard to measure success in easily quantifiable terms. Students aren't uniform personalities - they're humans with an incredible variety of personalities that makes them labor intensive to teach. In the same public school class, you can have the doctor's son as well as the kid who has meth head parents and who never eats a decent meal and is probably emotionally neglected. Oh yeah, standardized tests, because those two kids can be expected to perform exactly the same. *rolls eyes*

Because people who are *good* at something make it look easy, so the work that goes into what they do goes under-appreciated.

Because whining turns people off.

Because of bias - we've all encountered the bad city employee, barista, cop - or teacher. Those are the ones we remember, and *those* bad employees don't deserve more money. Bias punishes the good for the acts of the bad.

by Anonymousreply 15501/26/2013

r154 is that you Palin?

by Anonymousreply 15601/27/2013

In my state, high school teachers have to have 30 credits of their content area (basically, a major) and education coursework. Middle school teachers have to have at least 15. Elementary school teachers have to have special coursework in teaching reading and math.

by Anonymousreply 15701/27/2013

People that say other working people are paid too much, or have it too good are just assholes and jealous.

by Anonymousreply 15801/27/2013

[quote][R154] is that you Palin?

No -- believe it or not, some gay people can actually do arithmetic.

by Anonymousreply 15901/27/2013

I'm a first year, 5th grade teacher getting paid $34,000 a year before taxes. I'm single, and have no kids. By the time I pay for all of my necessary expenses each month I have maybe 400 dollars left over. I was given $250 from the state to set up my classroom. I easily spent $1500 getting the things I needed to have a working classroom, and I even inherited a bunch of stuff from the previous teacher who held my position. I'm at a charter school, so I'm not a part of any union, and do not think I am entitled to my job. I think I have to prove that I earn my keep.

Having that said, let me paint you a picture of my average day. I wake up at 5:30 am, get to school by 7 to 7:30 ready for school to start at 8:20. First thing I have to get my materials ready, answer emails from parents that were sent the last night, check schedules, get personal materials ready for my special ed students. Students arrive and I have to manage 24 eleven year olds. With each lesson I teach my plans are typed up, materials are copied and ready, any accommodations for particular students are easily accessible. I have to be energized, patient, caring, and motivating at all moments. I have drop in evaluations Shi can take a momentary snap shot of my room and give me a career-defining write up of my skills. I have 20 min (on a good day) to eat lunch, then I have to go monitor students in my room who have to make up work, can't be outside for health reasons, or are just avoiding the cold and I have to shew them out. After school I have 3 hours before I get kicked out to grade all student work and put it into the computer in a timely manner, go to meetings (of which i gave about 2-3 a week, wach lasting one to two hours) for professional development or IEPs or team planning or parent meetings or evaluation debreifing and so forth. I have to plan and prepare lessons which include individualized accommodations for various students. I have to clean and organize my room, and keep good files for each student. I spend about a half hour just answering emails from parents. Then once I'm home, I eat dinner, finish grading, answer more parent emails, and prepare for the next day. By the time that is all done it is 10 o'clock at night ANC I'm off to bed.

Then add in that I have to track personal achievement through NWEA testing and dibels testing, and math benchmarks. We set personal goals that I need to monitor. I was in charge of planning our school science fair with one other teacher. I tutor students after school who need more help. I have to prepare and hold parent teacher conferences three times a year. I have to know the latest research and data to back up why I teach the way I do. If a student is not performing well it's because I haven't done enough and I need to give more of myself for their education. I have to deal with the regular stresses of colleagues I don't see eye to eye with. I plan field trips and organize parent volunteer calendars, plan class parties, and activity days.

Oh yeah, and I teach.

I have never had a bad evaluation, never been late, missed one day the entire year (and it was more work to miss then to just go), and I have never had major disputes with parents or colleagues. My entire life is dedicated to my class and my job.

Now tell me...$34,000? Before taxes! About $2400 a month. Somedays I really wonder why I do it. I don't blame anyone for getting burned out after a few years. It takes over your life. If anyone thinks teachers get paid enough, or even too much, they are obviously ignorant and, forgive me, just plain idiotic. Spend a week with me and you will understand. Everyone thinks they know a teachers job because they have been to school. The teaching is about 5% of the job. You know nothing until you've walked the walk.

by Anonymousreply 16002/01/2013

r160 Bravo!

by Anonymousreply 16102/01/2013

How much do other professionals have that have multiple degrees?

What is educating the future of our country worth? What OP mentioned is the high-end of someone with 2 masters degree or a PHD. The new teachers make half that much.

It's not just teaching the time in school, it's lesson plans (a lot of the time for more than ONE class) and grading tests and papers. There is a lot of at home work also - and no overtime.

Also soon we will be expected to be armed and trained to use weapons and act as security guards and not just educators for the children.

by Anonymousreply 16202/01/2013

Public school teachers are greatly overpaid, as are all government employees. Look at the salaries at private and parochial schools to see what the job is actually worth.

by Anonymousreply 16302/01/2013

Boring, R163. There's no substance to what you've written.

by Anonymousreply 16402/01/2013

r163, you know when parent are paying for their child's education you already have a step up then in the public schools when parents aren't as involved or ready to give their kids consequences for their actions.

There are layers that block the actually teaching of students that exist in public school that don't in private schools. Starting with behavior and commitment to actually learning.

Also schools with money, also effect students morale. I teach in schools where ever kid doesn't even have a desk or their own textbooks. There are no lockers either.

by Anonymousreply 16502/01/2013

This thread makes my blood boil.

I'm in my eighth year of teaching in a small city in a flyover state. I work in a relatively well-paid district without strong union presence. I started out with an M.Ed. at 33K. This year was the first iI cracked the 40K salary mark after a four year salary freeze by the district so we would only have to lay off dozens of employees instead of hundreds.

I arrive at school at 7:00 most days and leave at 4:00 or 5:00 to work a second job so I can afford the heady luxuries of renting alone, paying off debt, and owning a smartphone. I almost own a 2007 POS car and have not taken a vacation in six years. During a typical day I have contact time with kids for six hours, meetings for 45 mins-1 hour, a 20 minute lunch break, and 45 mins. of extra car or bus duty. I have a 55 minute plan time each day, but I'm generally either tutoring kids or in a meeting.

This is an EASY teacher's schedule. I feel guilty because I'm a special area teacher and not a classroom. They generally are stuck at school from 7-6 and don't have the opportunity to take other jobs or work from home like I do.

Our summer vacations are nice, but they're primarily nice because it's a ten week opportunity to find a summer job and set aside some cash. We paint houses, work at Target, mow lawns...anything to stay busy and make a little extra money. Most of us wish school was year-round, so we could spend more time with our students and actually do our jobs.

For the critics who say teachers are unimaginative drones, u you're either old or are now ardent Libertarians. Education is vastly different than even when I started, and the motto of our district is "resign, retire, or relocate if you can't keep up". We have been given back our power as experts, but are expected tp show innovation and serious commitment to the kids in return.

Those of you with anecdotal "proof" of lazy, overpaid teachers live in isolated pockets of ridiculously unionized districts. Those of you who lambast teachers with no proof are the type of people who also probably don't tip service workers "for just doing their job" (i.e. super conservative dickbags). The truth is, teachers who care about teaching will continue to work for peanuts under harsh scrutiny from people who have no real idea what we do because we love our students and our jobs.

But we'd really like it if you'd get off our asses while we're tryinf to take care of your kids for you.

by Anonymousreply 16602/02/2013

Clarifying the previous post: by "work from home" I mean take extra work home.

Apologies for the odd typos. I'm typing on my phone, and the keyboard does funky things.

by Anonymousreply 16702/02/2013

Thanks r166, you speak the truth. If there is anyone overpaid in public education, it isn't the teachers.

by Anonymousreply 16802/02/2013

First, let's clear up some of the glaring mistakes about teaching that have permeated this thread: 1) teacher contracts vary not just from state to state but from district to district. Things like prep time, lunch, etc. are negotiated, if there is a teachers' union, or they are set by the state.

2) teachers do not receive vacation pay. Their salaries are based on the number of days they work in a school year. There are some districts that allow the salaries to be spread over 12 months, just as there are districts that only issue teacher paychecks during the school year.

3) administrators are NOT part of the teachers' unions. Their salaries and benefits are negotiated by their own associations.

4) pension and health care benefits upon retirement were negotiated items, usually put forth by districts at the urging of school board associations, as a means of deferring costs in school budgets. Teachers receive these benefits in exchange for lower salary settlements.

5) teachers contribute to their own pensions. The amount they pay and the amount the individual district pays for them is, again, a negotiated item or one mandated by the state.

6) tenure is NOT a lifetime job guarantee. All it entitles a teacher to is due process before job termination. It is incumbent upon administration to identify and terminate substandard teachers. This can be done without due process before a teacher acquires tenure, usually three years. Afterwards, a case must be made by the administration showing a pattern of substandard performance. Admittedly, this is a time-consuming process; however, isn't that what the administrator's job is? Incidentally, tenure came about at the insistence of school boards and administrators to prevent teaching positions becoming part of the political "spoils system" and to insure continuity of instruction.

Before anyone can ask, yes, I was a teacher and union rep and negotiator for my district for 30 years. My starting salary was $10,200 in 1979. After 20 years of teaching, I was still not making $30,000. No, I did not teach in a poor state, but rather in the "affluent" Northeast. Things changed rather drastically in the last ten years of my career, with salaries rising to become more competitive with other professions as well as the demands for more accountability from both the state and federal level. Did I enter the teaching profession expecting to become wealthy? No, I was never that stupid; however, I didn't think that becoming a teacher meant I had to take a vow of poverty, either.

by Anonymousreply 16902/02/2013

Agreed each district is different with some being much more difficult, however in our district and at our schools our children go to, there is absolutely not one teacher in the building within 15 min of release of children, ever. We also have many friends who say they do not bring work home. After 12 years they reach the top, which is $75,000 for elementary. Whether a teacher receives pay for 9 months or 12 is irrelevant, the fact remains is that they make $75k for working 65% of the days from a normal full time job. If you take 76/.65 it is like making well above $100k per year. This is much higher than average and the stats show that less than 2% o teachers lose their jobs vs 8% in private schools I wonder why then there is such discrepancy between districts. And in our district they could all do summer school (pay is over $50hour) but no one wants to. The teachers we know have nice homes take great vacations and live a very comfortable low stress life. They can coach and do many other things and pay nearly nothing for health coverage. They also make much more than our friends who work full time jobs in the public sector- reason is teachers union is the biggest so they receive an unfair advantage over other public and most private sector people. They know how good they have it

by Anonymousreply 17002/13/2013

What district is that, R170? Fucking Republican Lie ISD?

by Anonymousreply 17102/13/2013

"...and live a very comfortable low stress life."

You clearly have an agenda, R170. Studies have consistently shown teaching to be one of the top 10 most stressful jobs out there. We know you're a plump frau with a football-worshipping husband... This is a gay board, hon.

by Anonymousreply 17202/13/2013

Did you go to college to learn to swear. I agreed there must be many differences and not all districts are so easy and stress free. I assume there must be some that have many demanding stresses but most private sector jobs are full of stress long hours lousy benefits worry about constant lay offs and most people get 3 weeks off all year. Teachers get 3 months plus 2 at Christmas plus another at spring break plus many other misc days. I am just saying in some districts they are making a lot Didn't you hear about gym teachers in Chicago making $90k? That is reality. You can easily look up averages by state

by Anonymousreply 17302/13/2013

"...but most private sector jobs are full of stress long hours lousy benefits worry about constant lay offs and most people get 3 weeks off all year."

If private sector jobs are so rotten, why don't people agitate to make them better, R173? I'll never understand why some people bitch about other jobs, yet never lift a finger to make their own better.

"Teachers get 3 months plus 2 at Christmas plus another at spring break plus many other misc days."

Your kids must attend one amazing district! Where I live, teachers get 2 months off for summer, 1 week off for Christmas, and 1 week off for Spring Break.

by Anonymousreply 17402/13/2013

I don't believe there are any districts that only take 2 months in the summer or one week at Christmas. Never heard of it. Fact is nearly all districts are 65% of the days as a normal full time job. Fact is also that teachers make more than other government employees with same education level and this has nothing to do with anyone liking football or not

by Anonymousreply 17502/13/2013

Why is it so hard to grasp that some teachers are well compensated while others are paid insultingly low salaries? It's very clear that there are wide regional variations in salaries and teaching conditions. I teach at the junior college level, and in some respects, it's much easier than previous jobs, which might demand putting out a report in three days' time. There's never that level of accountability in my classes. In other respects, getting people to focus and open themselves up to learning can be the most difficult thing you've ever done.

It's a mixed bag, folks.

by Anonymousreply 17602/13/2013

Perhaps the most important fact in this discussion is that R175 is terminally incapable of ending her sentences in a period...

If you're bitter against one of your English teachers, don't take it out on all teachers, dear.

by Anonymousreply 17702/13/2013

"two months off in the summer" yes, while that is a long time and all, teachers don't just jump right back into work on the first day of school for the students. Teachers go back to their classrooms earlier, in some cases, weeks earlier to set up their room.

by Anonymousreply 17802/13/2013

R170 you do realize you have no clue about math, right? Jesus.

by Anonymousreply 17902/13/2013

LAUSD teacher get tenure, amazing benefits, and it's almost impossible to get fired. See Miramontes Elementary.

The Los Angeles Unified School Dist. is aghast in waste and mismanagement. Yet every year asks taxpayers for more money.

No one in LA city limits who wants their kid to get a good education sends their kids to any LAUSD school. Those kids are all in private schools.

by Anonymousreply 18002/14/2013

This is all you need to know:

by Anonymousreply 18102/14/2013

There are swings and roundabouts. They get paid less but their perk is shorter working days and lots and lots of holidays. I really don't think that Teachers appreciate how lucky they are with holidays especially if they have done nothing else but school, College, University and then Teaching. They will never know how difficult it is to work extremely long hours and have to get by on about 20 - 25 days annual leave a year. No time at all for re-charging your battery.

Also in the UK Teachers like all other public sector workers get a pension and get to retire at 60 whilst the rest of us slog on until at least 68 or until we keel over and die.

by Anonymousreply 18202/14/2013

r182, you have no business commenting on a thread about American teachers. The situation here is MUCH worse. Did you even look at the link above your post! ?

by Anonymousreply 18302/14/2013

@ R183 I was giving my opinion. It is also my opinion that people should not just leave University and go into teaching, they should do something else in the real world first then enter a teaching career with some life experiences.

Ever heard the saying those who can do, those who can't teach.

It's the same thing in the UK with politicans you are getting people straight out of University trying to get into politics and become a local Councellor or an MP. Bullshit they have no life or career experience so they do not have a clue what they are talking about ot doing.

by Anonymousreply 18402/14/2013

[R184] is still mad that his third grade teacher never treated him like the special snowflake his mommy told him he was.

People who like to quote "Those who can't, teach." are generally the same narcissist losers who constantly get fired from jobs they believe they're too good for. A lot of them try to substitute teach to pass the time, make it to recess before they realize they're getting eaten alive, and then magically have nothing bad to say about teachers ever again after they clock out in defeat.


by Anonymousreply 18502/14/2013

I'm no loser and I have never been fired from a job in my life, I have however, been head hunted many times.

I would love to enter the teaching profession, now that I have made my money. It would be nice to kick back and relax and spend several weeks every summer travelling.

by Anonymousreply 18602/14/2013

So what's stopping you R186?

by Anonymousreply 18702/14/2013

R187, I pray an administrator and an interview committee stops him. Can you imagine the kind of damage someone who wants to teach solely for the vacation days would do to a classroom of kids?

by Anonymousreply 18802/14/2013

R!86 It's not that difficult if you already have a college degree. You need some additional education credits and you're good to go. You can begin by working as a substitute teacher.

However teaching is incredibly hard physical work. You have to stay on your feet all day and can't just leave the room to go to the bathroom. You have to be "on" the whole time you're at the school. It will also take hours to prepare lessons for a beginning teacher. (This will get better with time).Being a beginning teacher is really a 24/7 job.

If you teaacher older kids be prepared for kids to tell you to go fuck yourself on a daily basis. Have fun!

by Anonymousreply 18902/14/2013

@ R188 I'm not going to say that to an interview committee am I. I know how to interview and tell people exactly what they want to hear when I have to.

Current teachers are not doing such a good job, I'm having a hell of time trying to find suitable kids to employ straight from school.

by Anonymousreply 19002/14/2013

Oops I mean teach obviously.

Teaching can be a great job or a nightmare. It depends on the students and the administration. Salaries vary tremendously.

If you think teaching is a scam, no one is stopping anyone from becoming a teacher. Of course the job is so hard no one who does it because it's easy, actually lasts. That's one reason why so many people quit their first year.

by Anonymousreply 19102/14/2013

Teaching is HARD work. I never realized it until I volunteered in my son's school. Keeping a class of 20-25 elementary school kids focused and on task is a real talent. Damn, I couldn't get out of there fast enough.

by Anonymousreply 19202/14/2013

R190 I'm already laughing at your post about how you'll ace the job interview!

So what. Once you actually step into a classroom you're going to die at how the job actually is. Teachers have to like the kids and be there for the right reasons. The kids will know right away that you're there because it's such an "easy" gig.

by Anonymousreply 19302/14/2013

Read for comprehension, R190. I didn't say you'd explicity say that in an interview; I said that was your primary reason for teaching.

I'm rapidly running the risk of becoming the Teacher Troll, so here's the last I'll say about the whole mess: Education is not only a gigantic industry, but also a public one, so its successes and failures are everyone's business. And with any large industry, we attract both successful, hardworking professionals as well as selfish, irresponsible users who get into it because they think it's easy. When they find out it's not easy they either (ideally) quit, or dig in their claws, collecting a paycheck and blaming everyone but themselves for why they failed.

R190 seems to me be to selfish and narcissistic, based on his messages so far. You want to get into teaching so you can have the free time to travel and because "you just can't find good help these days"? Fuck you. Seriously.

The ONLY acceptable reason to become a teacher is becausw you care deeply for children and their academic and emotional progress. If you arent willing to work beyond your contract hours, use those supposedly luxurious weeks off to pay for training and professional development (usually at your own exoense) wipe tears, tie shoes, attend sporting events, weddings, graduations, drive with your principal to get a kid out of jail or a homeless shelter, testify in court as a first responder in child abuse cases because you saw the bruises first, then fuck off . Your selfishness will fail those children, and that's unforgiveable in my book.

Teaching is not easy, just like a lot of jobs aren't easy. It's a deeply flawed industry in a great deal of places in the world. Teachers aren't saints or martyrs, but most of us aren't monsters either. Stop shitting on a profession you only presume to understand, and please never, ever try to teach unless you legitimately care about students.

by Anonymousreply 19402/14/2013

thank you, r194.

by Anonymousreply 19502/14/2013

I know several people who switched careers to teaching, solely for the reduced hours and increased vacation time. Also, many actors/artists/musicians who teach school as a last resort.

This "teaching because you love it" is such bullshit. We all had psycho teachers who hated kids, and guess what! That still describes a good number of them.

by Anonymousreply 19602/14/2013

I had to do a 7 am conference call this morning, then be in for a 8:300 am staff meeting, even though my hours are officially 9 - 6. Techinically I am supposed to have an hour unpaid lunch break, but the last time I took a "lunch break" was last year when I scheduled a dentist appointment during the day. Last night I worked until 8 pm, and I spent all last weekend catching up on work. Monday is a holiday, but I'm working, because my largest client, a global company, doesn't recognize the holiday, and expects me to be available. I am lucky to get 4 weeks vacation, but I can't take more than a week at a time and am constantly checking in while on vacation. This is a normal corporate environment. Most people I know live like this.

The median salary in my school district is $68,410. The 90th percentile earns $104,540. They are compensated for field trips, coaching, any time they put in for official school business. They work a 37.5 hour week and work 180 days a year. I work 229 days a year. I earn less than the average teacher in my district.

I could never be a teacher because I don't like being around children, and I would probably hate their parents. I know it's an important job, and somebody's got to do it. I don't begrudge them a thing. But they need to know what's going on in the real world and that they have it pretty damn good.

by Anonymousreply 19702/14/2013

There are more bad teachers who are in it for themselves and because they couldn't cut it in the real world than there are good teachers who care. That's a fact.

As someone who has spent a lot of time in education through school, college and University including postgraduate I have experienced a lot of teachers. I can count the good ones on one hand. Yes I will admit they changed my life and I will never forget them.

I can recall one teacher telling is that he had no favourites and that he hated us all equally. Believe it or not he was a good teacher.

by Anonymousreply 19802/14/2013

R197 is correct about current corporate culture. There is no 9-5 anymore. Anyone who even dares to try to work those hours is looked upon as a clock watcher with a factory worker mentality. Those people are the first to go in a layoff and the last to be given raises and promotions because they are seen as less committed. In today's climate you can not put your own needs above those of the company or clients and expect to be rewarded--especially when the guy sitting next to you IS willing to give 110%.

by Anonymousreply 19902/14/2013

The only reason people are angry with teachers is because the corporate world treats workers like scum. Teaching is one of the only professions with defined pensions. When teachers inevitably lose that, people won't be as angry. Their benefits will still suck but they won't be as jealous.

It'll be win/win.

by Anonymousreply 20002/14/2013

Nothing "win" about it.

by Anonymousreply 20102/14/2013

Win/win for the oligarchs that run the country. Since no one workers will have good benefits or a defined pension, they'll be more people competing for the crumbs the corporations throw out.

by Anonymousreply 20202/14/2013

R 197 sums up the real world and how it is. In the UK teachers and other public sector workers complain about the cuts and the way they are being treated and they look to the private sector for sympathy, it's just so annoying. We in the private sector have been treated like shit for years.

Many years ago it was a well known fact that public sector workers got paid less than their private sector counterparts but in turn were compensated with shorter working hours, long holidays, great pensions and an early retirement age.

Then comes the Labour government or the Liebor government as I like to call them who increased public sector pay tenfold. Which meant that not only do they have all the perks but they have more money as well

by Anonymousreply 20302/14/2013

The thing that really annoys the shit out of me about teachers is how they complain about the cost of holiday because they are going peak time. They then tell you that it's ok for you as you can go anytime. Well no I can't because I only have 25 days annual leave a year (yes teachers that means that you have more time off in the summer than I do all year), my boss is a workaholic who thinks because he pays me a salary he ownes me.

I haven't had a two week holiday in about 7 years. I can afford one, and I have had opportunities to go but guess what there is no way in a million years that I could get 2 weeks off work in one go. I can't even get a week.

I too go at peak time. In the UK we have Good Friday and Easter Monday off so I book two days either side of that for a city break and of course I pay double for that because its Easter but guess what I don't give a shit how much I have to pay because a holiday is that important to me.

by Anonymousreply 20402/14/2013

Wah, wah, wah. Find another job R204; you're the one allowing your boss to own what should be your personal time.

by Anonymousreply 20502/14/2013

No, let him keep ranting. He's getting crazier by the post. In a few hours we'll be party to a complete breakdown where he admits (as I originally suspected) he didn't win a science fair when he was 12 and that's caused him to be a failure at life.

I especially like the first post where he says "now that I've made my money..." compared to the last one where he's now admitting he doesn't make much money and isn't allowed to take time off.

Cue the "I live in Mother's basement" confession in 3...2...

by Anonymousreply 20602/14/2013

He won't confess, but you are likely correct.

by Anonymousreply 20702/14/2013

[quote]Most teachers spend at least an additional two hours prepping for their work every day designing lesson plans and an additional two hours every day grading papers and entering grades. That's a 12 hour day.


Local High School = 8am-2:30pm = 6.5 hours (including lunch).

Teachers are not grading papers EVERY DAY.

Teachers are not entering grades (for 2 hours?) EVERY DAY.

When people hear you spout such complete bullshit, they tune out and won't believe anything you say.

by Anonymousreply 20802/14/2013

When I was in elementary school, the teachers would have us kids exchange our work and we'd grade each others papers.

As for having to prepare lesson plans, having a substitute meant the day was a free for all! Unless the teacher was planning to be out, there was never a prepared lesson plan just waiting.

by Anonymousreply 20902/14/2013

Teachers and other union workers who still earn decent salaries and have decent benefits are not the enemy. You should have what they have and they should not have to give anything up. Stop buying into the corporate bullshit.

by Anonymousreply 21002/14/2013

Public school employees are among the most overpaid government workers in the country. And the product they put out gets more ignorant every year. Here in the South, it has been years since high school graduates knew how to wear pants that fit, and they walk around with their pants between their knees and their underwear showing. Maybe teachers up North are doing their jobs, but the people I see coming out of the schools are uneducated beyond belief.

by Anonymousreply 21102/14/2013

Would you blame a doctor if a patient didn't take a prescribed medicine? Teachers are important but they are not the only cog in the wheel. We need involved parents, a supportive community, supportive governments, and a supportive society. Teachers cannot and should do it alone.

by Anonymousreply 21202/14/2013

Dear r211

Maybe PARENTS should do their job!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I don’t buy my students' clothes and I don’t control what they wear.

I get them for 40 minutes a day, parents get them for 18 years... Stop blaming teachers for things parents should be doing.

I also can’t control when they go to bed, what they watch on TV, their internet/phone usage. I don’t control their free time, drinking, drugs, sex.

When I ask a parent to check to see if their kid does their HW, I get silence. When I call about another issue, I get silence or no response. Maybe if the adults who are raising these kids did their job, I could do mine better.

by Anonymousreply 21302/14/2013

It's all Rahm's fault.

by Anonymousreply 21402/14/2013

"This is a normal corporate environment. Most people I know live like this."

How sad for you, R197. You let someone abuse you, and you take it out on others. You hate how long you supposedly work? Stop licking Republican asshole, and do something about it.

by Anonymousreply 21502/14/2013

You know corporate America has truly taken over when we tell our fellow underlings that they are overpaid, yet both of our salaries combined is only a fraction of what one-percent-ers get.

We should be supporting each other. Call me a Mary! if you want, but it's true.

by Anonymousreply 21602/14/2013

I see arguments on both sides here. The only people who can truly comment are those who have done both jobs. Those who have worked in the corporate world who switched to teaching and vice versa.

However, my sister is a primary school teacher in the UK. She has to arrive at work before 8.30 a.m. as they receive children for their parents to work, classes start at 8.50 a.m. and she done for the day by 4.00 p.m. at the latest. She gets a full day out of the classroom every week, her classes are taken over by a part time teacher who is close to retirement and only works a few days a week. My sister spends this day out of the classroom productively. She does are her marking or grading as you call it. Therefore, she does not have to spent her evenings doing paper work. Other teachers at her school are not so organised and they are the ones who are always complaining about the work.

My sister also teaches the same age group year in year out therefore once she has prepared the lesson plans she just repeats it year after year.

by Anonymousreply 21702/15/2013

@ R 205 you really are on fantasy island aren't you. Yeah right find a another when we are in a recession which is likely to be triple dip recession in the UK.

Most employers are instilling fear into their employees now, making them feel very fortune that they have a job at all. There are no pay rises and workers no matter how skilled or qualified are made to feel worthless.

I bet R 205 is either a benefit claimant who has never done a days work in their life and lives of rich parents and a trust fund.

by Anonymousreply 21802/15/2013

I agree with R213 - parents need to do their job. I think a teachers job is not a difficult one but its becoming more difficult as time goes by. Lack of discipline and stuff.

In British schools we have had breakfast clubs at school for years. This is nuts why is the British tax payer having to fund childrens breakfast. Why can't parents do the basics like give their kids breakfast in the morning before taking them to school.

I know teachers and they and their teaching assistants have to ensure that children spend time reading. Again isn't this something parents and children could do together.

There is a new plan in the pipeline at British schools to deal with childhood obesity. They want it to be the job of teachers to ensure that all children under the age of 5 can swim. Again that is the parents job.

by Anonymousreply 21902/15/2013

[quote]I see arguments on both sides here.

Oh fuck off, R217, everyone can *see* them.

[quote]The only people who can truly comment are those who have done both jobs. Those who have worked in the corporate world who switched to teaching and vice versa.

You then went on to comment, at length and stupidly. You are as dumb as a box of rocks.

by Anonymousreply 22002/15/2013

this is not about Britain.

by Anonymousreply 22102/15/2013

Teachers and public servants are my pet hate but my biggest pet hate are working mothers, whatever sector they work in. Before you start calling me a women hating gay man I am actually a woman.

I have a lot of working mother colleagues and they want it all. They get to dominate all the summer with their annual leave so that no one else gets any time off, summers are not what they used to be.

They get to stroll in 30 minutes late everyday because they drop their children at school, even though they could have dropped their children off at 8.30 a.m. and still made to work by 9 like everyone else.

They get to pick their hours to suit themselves and get to finish early which means that everyone else has to cover their work for the rest of the day.

Christmas holidays are on a first come first served basis. I like Christmas off work so I put my request form in January in advance. One of the working mothers left hers late and then kicked of stating "that she had to have the time off because she has children". Well I say if its that important to you get your form in first.

Another of my colleague kid is usually sick and she has to leave early, funny thing is it always seems to be on Fridays.

We have a car park for employees but there are not enough spaces for everyone which means it first come first served. The working mothers complain it's unfair on them as they have to do the school run so they cannot get a space in the car park.

So not only do they want to dominate what hours they work, and holidays, they want control of the car park as well

by Anonymousreply 22202/15/2013

Are you a teacher?

Are they teachers?

If not, stop your whining.

by Anonymousreply 22302/15/2013


by Anonymousreply 22402/15/2013

R210 speaks the truth, we should all be fighting for the perks and salary teachers get, not complaining about it. However it does get my goat when teachers complain about how overworked they are.

by Anonymousreply 22502/15/2013

R225 fight for your own perks. If there is one thing I have learned it look out for No 1 and don't worry about anything else.

by Anonymousreply 22602/15/2013

The same douche wads that complain about teacher pay are the ones moaning about USPS pay.

Without a strong middle-class, the USA is doomed to fail.

by Anonymousreply 22702/15/2013

You're right 227/

by Anonymousreply 22802/15/2013

(rep 178). All the teachers I know spend one day setting up their classroom. not weeks. that is not true. The reason that teachers constantly complain about what they make is because they actually know they have it better than everyone else and that they are overpaid. Why should teachers make more than pretty much everyone who works full time and then retire earlier. In our district the teachers pension is set apart than any other public employees at a higher rate. really, why should they get more than a cop? When a teacher says they work late not true. They have time during the day to grade papers, or have the kids do it. They are trying to cover up their good deal. Yes, corporations are demanding more and more, but it does impact us when teachers are overpaid...means we pay more in taxes, and it also means that because they are so strong, they don't have to put in any effort, ever. They get paid based on years of service and credits. That's it. Not performance.

by Anonymousreply 22902/15/2013

I have worked in both the 9-5 office world and as a teacher. My office life included all the usual drudgery so many people (rightly) hate: poor benefits, little vacation time, a long and boring day.

I honestly feel I work much harder as a teacher. With my office job, I left it at work when I went home and over the weekend. I am always bring stuff home as a teacher. I spend every Sunday, from about 10 to about 4, getting ready for the week. Maybe I don't have grading to do every day but I do need to prepare for my lessons. That could involve making handouts, writing tests and quizzes, putting together a PPT presentation, etc. And on that note, don't assume a teacher who doesn't bring work home is lazy. They may simply be good at their job. Many new teachers dedicate hours and hours to planning because they don't really know what they're doing. I say this as a new teacher, by the way.

Do I enjoy my summer vacation? Yes, very much. But I think most Americans deserve more vacation time than they currently get. Do I enjoy the decent (for now) benefits? Yes. But I think you should have those same benefits. Frankly, I think national union groups would help themselves if they engaged in some PR and reminded people that they used to have benefits but they've been stripped away so others could profit.

As a final note, although I think I work much harder as a teacher, I find this job far more enjoyable and rewarding.

by Anonymousreply 23002/15/2013

I, too, transitioned to teaching from the corporate world. I was in product development at a software company and made my money during the dotcom boom. I retired in 2001 and raised our three sons (my partner still worked). I decided to go into teaching, because I really wanted to have some sort of job that actually helped people and could make a difference. I think I do, but the difference I make is incremental, not what I envisioned.

I'm in my third year of teaching now, and while teachers don't work as hard as I did in software development, they work harder than any other typical office job. (In software development at a startup-turned-IPO-turned-success, you work 18 hour days for at least a year and 12-14 after that -- but it's worth it, because you have the chance to make millions on your stock options -- of course a lot of people working in startups never make that kind of money, which makes those long hours even more painful).

There are a few teachers who teach electives who don't work long hours (the chorus, band and drama elective teachers work their asses off, though), but most of the core courses work a lot. Those on this board who say they teach the same thing for years are remembering back to their own school experience (mine was like that, too), but these days, lessons change on an almost yearly basis, and you have to basically write your own tests and such, so there is significant investment of time.

By the way, the actual number of days I'm required to work is 203. Students in my district are in school 192 days (I think it was 180 when I was in school). I have one week of pre-plan (but usually come in the week before that) and six teacher work days throughout the year. You must be there contractually (we even have to sign in on teacher work days). In addition, I have to do a lot of prof. development in the Summer. I wind up doing at least two weeks; last Summer I did 4 weeks and this Summer I'm already sign up for 4 weeks plus a 3-day seminar. It's local, so you don't even get the perks of a per diem.

I chose this profession, so I'm not complaining, just trying to show some perspective. I can afford to have a starting salary of 37,500, because my family doesn't have to live off that salary.

I get to school at 7:30 every day, since I have meetings virtually every day beginning at 8:15. School starts at 9:15 and schools out at 4. I teach 6 periods and have one period for planning and a half hour for lunch. When my partner's home, I stay at school to work until 6-6:30, sometimes later, grading and planning for the next day. If he's traveling, I'm home for my boys at 4:30 and then do the grading after they've gone to bed or when they're watching TV.

It's a time-consuming process and even the most burned out teacher in my school works more than 40 hours a week (with 25 years of service, these teachers are making slightly more than 50k). I used to be a judgmental prick about teachers until I became one. I really thought I was going to go in and show them how it should be done. Instead I learned that I didn't know what I was talking about.

(Oh, you don't get extra for going on field trips, but you do for coaching a sport). You make at $900 for a sport that takes 2 afternoons a week and 3-4 Saturdays for about 14 weeks. Basically, you make less than $10/hour. Most of the coaches do it because they love coaching; those who do it for the money are obviously trying to live on meager salaries and not making it. As far as Summer School, nationwide Summer School is almost non-existent. Schools that used to have summer school curriculum that would employ 4-5 teachers now have one teacher who teaches a course designed simply to move 20 or so kids up to the next grade level, because failing a kid results in a lower ranking and less funding for a school.

To Be Continued

by Anonymousreply 23102/16/2013


I teach middle school in a Title I school (I wouldn't send my kids here even though I have the option when they reach this age), and behavior problems are rampant. That doesn't bother me so much, because I realize these kids are the result of awful, disengaged parents, and nothing has ever been expected of these kids. I used to want to change the world. Now I care about the 1-2 kids per class that I know I make a difference with. As a guy, I don't get as much shit as some of the other teachers, and I also know I can always leave, so the horrible behavior and disrespect just doesn't stress me out.

(Oh, and to the poster who said they could grade each others' papers: 1. they can't because they cheat; even honors students cheat now, so I grade everything myself; 2. Even if they could grade some work, most of my time grading is spent grading short essays, dense paragraphs and longer essays. I teach English, but even in other areas, like social studies and science, there is a lot more writing being done. While worksheets still exist, most of them have a heavy short essay component.

I probably haven't changed any minds. Those who sneer at teachers will continue to sneer, and those who respect teachers will continue to be respectful. I just couldn't go on reading the rantings of people who haven't been in middle school for 10, 20, 30 or even 40 years. Schools are dramatically different, students are dramatically different, and, yes, even teachers are dramatically different.

Apologies for going on so long. I had a lot to say, but I'm sure that some datalounge bitches will be happy to sling their shit now. Have at it.

by Anonymousreply 23202/16/2013
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