Or was the house chosen at random?
Did Charles Manson choosing to kill Sharon Tate have anything to do with "Rosemary's Baby"
|by Grace Cardiff||reply 49||04/25/2013|
Terry Melcher rented the house before Roman and Sharon did. Melcher had promised Manson a record deal, but Manson proved to be too crazy and he reneged. He was familiar with the house and knew Melcher wasn't there anymore. That house and it's occupants represented a facet of society Manson could not establish himself in... I really don't believe Rosemary's baby had anything to do with it.
|by Grace Cardiff||reply 1||04/12/2012|
Roman Polanski's "Rosemary's Baby" is really a true story.
|by Grace Cardiff||reply 3||07/04/2012|
There were faster ways to learn the answer to this question than posting on Datalounge, but the respondees have done an admirable job with it.
|by Grace Cardiff||reply 4||07/04/2012|
But there does seem to be some disagreement between r1 and r2 over whether Manson did or did not know that Melcher no longer lived there.
And if he knew Melcher wasn't living there anymore, did he know that it was Roman Polanski and Sharon Tate who were?
|by Grace Cardiff||reply 5||07/04/2012|
Manson thought Melcher was still living there. But the plan would have been carried out no matter who Manson's gang had found in residence. The LaBianca murders were just committed at random.
|by Grace Cardiff||reply 6||07/04/2012|
And what did the LaBianca family have to do with Manson's murderous rampage?
|by Grace Cardiff||reply 7||07/04/2012|
I can't believe you people know what Manson is thinking. How can anyone say what another person is thinking? We are all just as crazy as Manson but you all think he is the crazy one because someone told you to think that.
|by Grace Cardiff||reply 8||04/24/2013|
Doris Day was passed over for the role of Minnie Castevet and orchestrated the whole thing to get back at Polanski.
|by Grace Cardiff||reply 9||04/24/2013|
Charles Manson was nothing more than a home grown terrorist, before the media started using the term terrorist. Why to people glorify this nutcase so much?
|by Grace Cardiff||reply 10||04/24/2013|
It came out later that Manson had been to the house about two weeks before (looking for Terry Melcher) and he had seen Sharon there. The house was chosen because he was familiar with the layout.
|by Grace Cardiff||reply 11||04/24/2013|
[quote] The house belonged to Terry Melcher, who was a record producer (and Doris Day's son).
No, Melcher just rented it. The owner of the home was Rudi Altobelli, who owned (and later lived in) the home until it was sold in the early 90s.
|by Grace Cardiff||reply 12||04/24/2013|
I've wondered if the public thought the murders were karmic payback for the dark place Polanski had chosen to go by directing the movie? Like "Mess with the Devil, insult the Pope... and you'll get yours"?
Sharon had also played in movies with titles like "Eye of the Devil" and "The Fearless Vampire Killers".
|by Grace Cardiff||reply 13||04/24/2013|
There is a LOT of debate about Manson's real motive, but I am 99% certain the Manson Family knew Terry Melcher had moved out and Sharon Tate lived there. Ironically, Sharon Tate wasn't an intended victim. One of the killers, Patricia Krenwinkel, let is slip once that "she wasn't supposed to be there." The real targets were Voytek Frykowski, Jay Sebring and Abigal Folger and I believe the motive was drugs.
|by Grace Cardiff||reply 14||04/24/2013|
R13 = idiot.
|by Grace Cardiff||reply 15||04/24/2013|
Graphic photos of the Tate crime scene May not be for everyone, you have been warned.
|by Grace Cardiff||reply 16||04/24/2013|
The owner of the house, Rudy Altobelli, claimed that Manson visited the house after Melcher had moved out. He said his dogs were barking, so he looked out and saw a creepy, short hippie guy in the driveway. Altobelli was nasty with Manson, "What do you want?" Manson said he was looking for terry melcher. Altobelli said he told Manson that melcher no longer lived there and he was not welcome to just walk onto the property like that. So Manson knew melcher didn't live there.
Manson was a drug dealer. That's how he got to know these Hollywood types. He'd sell them drugs at a reduced price when they listened to his songs. They humored him because of the dope.
They bought a lot of mescaline from Gary Hinman a PhD student, musician and drug dealer in Laurel Canyon. (reports sometimes call him a "part time chemist" which is the polite way of saying he manufactured drugs). Bobby Beausoliel went to the house to get money back from Hinman because of the bad drugs. The sorry also says that some Manson family members believed Gary had inherited money from his aunt. At any rate, drugs and money were involved and they ultimately killed Hinman. Bobby took Gary's car and the police caught him with the car a few weeks later and arrested him for murder.
Charlie knew a drug dealer named Bernard. Bernard claimed to be a Black Panther. The family wanted bail money for Bobby, so Tex Watson burned Bernard for $2500 in a pot deal. Bernard retaliated by taking Tex's gf hostage. Charlie and Tex went to get Tex's gf and Charlie shot Bernard. Charlie thought he'd killed Bernard. This is where Charlie got the idea of trying to implicate the Black Panthers in the murders. They tried to get the police to believe the Panthers had killed Gary Hinman, but the police freaking picked up Bobby B in his car -- they knew Bobby did it. So Charlie decided that they needed to do more murders and try to mark it look as if Black Panthers were killing people in drug deals gone bad.
It is very possible Charlie or another Manson family member had sold drugs to the occupants of the Polanski house. Voytek Frykowski was a HUGE drug user. Jay Sebring spent so much money on dope that his business was threatened. Abigail Folger did a lot of drugs along with Voytek. Sharon Tate did not do any drugs or alcohol after she learned she was pregnant. Voytek and Abigail were friends with Mama Cass and Mama Cass's drug dealing bf who was the father of her daughter.
Since Charlie knew the layout of the house from when Melcher owned it, he decided to kill people in that house and make it look like the Hinman murder, so that the cops would connect the dots and say, "Aha. Another drug slaying by the Black Panthers!" and let Bobby Beausoliel go free. Of course, the cops didn't connect any dots (they didn't even think the LaBianca murders were connected with Tate). So they did another murder.
Vincent Bugliosi claims Charlie used to party at a house on the LaBianca's block, a few doors down and that he mistakenly entered the wrong house. However -- both of Rosemary LaBianca's children had been in trouble with the law , as had Suzan LaBianca's bf. Suzan had stolen a credit card of Leno's and Frank had been arrested with several friends for grand theft auto. Frank's friends wound up in juvenile hall, but Frank did not. Suzan's bf Joe had been arrested for GTA several times, but had not spent one in jail. Leno did not like Joe nor did he like Frank's friends. Frank's friends believe that Leno had pull within the judicial system (Leno was a mafia guy as well as someone who embezzled from his own family) and that Leno pulled strings to get them sent to juvvy.
Seeing as all these kids had legal problems, it's not a stretch to imagine they may have partied with or bought drugs from Charlie or other family members at some time. So it's possible Charlie picked that house because he'd been inside. Leno and Rosemary were no saints -- Rosemary's "successful dress business" was a front for Leno's money.
|by Grace Cardiff||reply 17||04/24/2013|
So all this "helter skelter race war" bs was a fairy tale told by Bugliosi to hide the fact that these were basically drug crimes. Hinman's murder was about drugs. Bernard's shooting was about drugs. The Manson family were just a bunch of drug users, petty-to-hardened criminals, motorcycle gang members, drug dealers. They were just a criminal gang, that's all. They were larger than most criminal gangs and the hippie culture at the time gave them cover.
There was no race war. There were only copy cat crimes at the homes of drug acquaintances in order to set Bobby Beausoliel free and to implicate the Black Panthers. Bugliosi wanted to keep the drug use of many of the victims quiet. All of Hollywood was taking drugs at the time and buying from guys like Charlie Manson. I think it was Steve McQueen who said that the sewer system under Los Angeles the day after the Manson killings must have been full of expensive drugs, as everybody flushed their stashes, afraid they would get a visit from police during the investigation. But the police were too stupid to get very far in their investigation. It old have remained unsolved if Sadie hadn't talked in jail.
You have to admit, Bugliosi did a genius job of portraying the case as a hallucinatory racial war plotted by Charlie so he could rule the world. His disturbed and drug-addled molls helped make the case look so very fucked up. But it was no more about causing a helter skelter race war than it was about any other drug-induced stories Charlie used to tell around the campfire.
|by Grace Cardiff||reply 18||04/24/2013|
The name is an anagram!
|by Grace Cardiff||reply 19||04/24/2013|
|by Grace Cardiff||reply 20||04/24/2013|
Weren't they going after Barbra Streisand next and didn't she have to go into hiding?
|by Grace Cardiff||reply 21||04/24/2013|
Can't believe the Manson murders are close to 50 years old.
They really butchered those poor people for no good reasons.
|by Grace Cardiff||reply 22||04/24/2013|
Why has Manson never been released? Do they really think he's still a threat? Is there something else we dont know in this regard? At the end of the day he was a drug dealer and a pimp. We have worse trash coming in and out of our prison systems these days. I always found the way he was treated in the media fascinating. Can you call him a serial killer, even though he didn't kill anyone directly?
|by Grace Cardiff||reply 23||04/24/2013|
Who found the bodies? What a scence to walk in on
|by Grace Cardiff||reply 24||04/24/2013|
[quote] Why has Manson never been released?
Because of the circus of a trial he and his followers put on.
Oh, and because he had one of the defense lawyers murdered
|by Grace Cardiff||reply 25||04/24/2013|
[quote] Who found the bodies?
There is no way of knowing.
There are no books or internet pages devoted to the killings. It's a shame, really.
|by Grace Cardiff||reply 26||04/24/2013|
[quote] Who found the bodies? What a scence to walk in on
The bodies at the Tate house were found by the housekeeper.
|by Grace Cardiff||reply 27||04/24/2013|
All of them bitches!
|by Grace Cardiff||reply 28||04/24/2013|
[quote] However -- both of Rosemary LaBianca's children had been in trouble with the law , as had Suzan LaBianca's bf.
Sorry, Suzan's last name was not LaBianca. She was Rosemary's daughter from her first marriage. Suzan's last name at the time of the murders was Struthers. Her bf was named Joe Dorgan, who had been arrested for drug possession and grand theft auto a few times. She and Joe stole and used someone's credit card, but charges were dropped because Leno made restitution to the victim. Suzan was living with Joe at he time of the murders because her mother and stepfather strongly disapproved of the relationship due to Joe's criminal record and Suzan's criminal behavior with Joe.
|by Grace Cardiff||reply 29||04/24/2013|
Rosemary LaBianca was quite a dame. She supposedly didn't know where she was born, but believed it was Mexico. She was somehow separated from her parents and wound up in an AZ orphanage until the age of 12, when she was adopted by a family named Harmon.
She lived with a lesbian for a few years and had a lot of lesbian friends. One lesbian friend named Ellen (seriously) when interviewed by police, claimed that rosemary did not have a sexual relationship with the woman, but others said that rosemary and the woman were lovers.
Rosemary met a man named Martin who fell in love with her. Martin was wealthy. While he and Rosemary dated, rosemary started an affair with a man named LaBerge. Rosemary left Martin for LaBerge and later contacted Martin, telling him she was pregnant with LaBerge's child. LaBerge was married to another woman. Martin took rosemary in and they "lived as man and wife." rRosemary gave birth to her daughter Susan.
Martin went to Alaska on business. When he returned, Rosemary had cleaned him out. Furniture, money, a coin collection and 2 cars. She took off for Mexico with LaBerge and her daughter. She and LaBerge "got married" in Mexico, but LaBerge was still married to the other woman.
Rosemary called Martin and apologized, and he took her back. They lived together for a year. She continued to see LaBerge while living with Martin. She also started an affair with Frank Struthers at this time
Rosemary married Frank Struthers in 1952 and gave birth to Frank Jr in 1954. She continued to see LaBerge during her marriage to Struthers.
LaBerge claimed that Rosemary had an affair with a business partner of Leno's named Hynatt. He said that Hynatt told LaBerge about the affair. Hynatt denied having an affair with Rosemary, but claimed that Rosemary was still seeing her former husband Frank Struthers while married to Leno. Frank Struthers denied this.
Whew. She was quite the hotsy totsy.
|by Grace Cardiff||reply 32||04/24/2013|
R18/32 speaks the truth. Yeah, the Labiancas were rather shady people; totally not the middle-aged, middle-class married couple next door. Also of interest is that both Rosemary Labianca and Tex Watson owned "wig businesses" and Tex, at one point, lived in the same apartment complex as her daughter, Suzanne. Things that make you go hmmmm.
|by Grace Cardiff||reply 33||04/25/2013|
Yes, OP. He was a huge Mia Farrow fan and wanted to be sure she was cast.
|by Grace Cardiff||reply 34||04/25/2013|
[quote]Why has Manson never been released?
It's hard to imagine, given the lightness of his crimes!
|by Grace Cardiff||reply 35||04/25/2013|
...and the fact that he has stated so many times how sorry he is-not to mention how normal he comes across in even recent interviews. Yeah, release that guy, he won't hurt anybody else
|by Grace Cardiff||reply 36||04/25/2013|
Did Manson have sex with the male members of his clan, too? Like handsome/sexy Tex Watson?
|by Grace Cardiff||reply 37||04/25/2013|
R37, I get the sense that Manson preferred the pretty boys in his family to any of the girls. He certainly enjoyed having young, cute Paul Watkins fellate him.
|by Grace Cardiff||reply 38||04/25/2013|
44 years ago. The man is 79 years old and should be long dead. Instead, after all this time he is a subject of fascination and still good for 30+ drooling posts on a slow Wednesday night.
Support your local "End the Death Penalty Now" chapter, so people like Chuck can stay in the culture for our amusement and fascination forever!
|by Grace Cardiff||reply 39||04/25/2013|
[R18] [R32] et al., great posts. What do you think of Ed Sanders' "The Family"? I read it years ago and found it explored the more realistic motives fairly well and was a good compliment to "Helter Skelter". Any other book recommendations?
|by Grace Cardiff||reply 40||04/25/2013|
r18, have you read The Ultimate Evil by Maury Terry?
I wonder what happened to him.
|by Grace Cardiff||reply 41||04/25/2013|
He was in and out of jail from an early age. The diminutive Manson surely encountered the mansex many times:
"In October 1951, on a psychiatrist's recommendation, Manson was transferred to Natural Bridge Honor Camp, a minimum security institution. Less than a month before a scheduled February 1952 parole hearing, he "took a razor blade and held it against another boy's throat while Manson sodomized him." Manson was transferred to the Federal Reformatory, Petersburg, Virginia, where he was considered "dangerous."
|by Grace Cardiff||reply 42||04/25/2013|
I'm surprised it hasn't excited Datalounge to know that Rosemary LaBianca was bisexual.
The second police report on the LaBianca killings was quite in-depth. Bugliosi glossed over everything in order to portray the victims as sweetly innocent people who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. He barely mentioned Voytek and Abigail's drug use, basically saying that they "experimented." They were hardcore. They invited Pic Dawson and some other hardcore dealers to Roman and Sharon's house and Roman threw them out during a party.
He never mentioned Frank Jr and Susan's run-ins with the law or looked deeply at Rosemary's million dollar "dress business'(it was 1969 people. Nobody had a million dollar dress business except top designers). Bugliosi was adamant his "helter skelter" would be the whole reason for the crimes and the drug and criminal backgrounds of victims and their families were covered up.
|by Grace Cardiff||reply 43||04/25/2013|
#43, are you Leslie van Houten by any chance?
Who cares what the victim's "morals" were?
|by Grace Cardiff||reply 44||04/25/2013|
Wow, what a lot of "blaming the victim" on this idiot thread.
So Frykowski and Sebring and Folger were all drug-crazed addicts and dealers. And the LaBiancas were "shady" people, involved in all sorts of criminal activity. So it's their fault they were murdered; they did DRUGS! They were EVIL PEOPLE! Who the fuck are you assholes, anyway? Are you relatives or fangurls of Charles Manson, Tex Watson, Patricia Krenwinkle, Leslie Van Houten and Bobby Beausoleil? You sure seem to be.
I'm surprised none of you shitheads have mentioned 18 year old Steven Parent. After leaving his evening job (he worked two jobs) he paid a visit to the goofus caretaker William Garretson. While driving away from the property he had the bad luck to run into The Family. Tex Watson confronted him with a buck knife in one hand and a gun in the other. His last words were "please don't hurt me, I won't say anything." Parent held up his hand to protect his face as Tex swung the knife at him; it sliced through his palm, severing tendons and cutting through his watchband. He then pumped four bullets into him. On one of these such threads some crazy weirdo said that poor Steven Parent went to Garretson's house in hopes of getting some homosex! No testimony or statement or evidence of any kind exists to substantiate THAT particularly insane idea.
The slander of the victims of the Manson family is sickening. It started right after the murders. Poor Sharon Tate was called "the queen of the Hollywood orgy scene" and "a dabbler in the Satanic arts." Of course both accusations were untrue. It's strange that even now people are stupid enough to believe the crazy nonsense about how "bad" the victims were.
|by Grace Cardiff||reply 45||04/25/2013|
Did they not kill William Garretson in the caretaker's house because he had a dog with him? I wonder what kind of PTSD he suffered after learning that he was the only survivor.
|by Grace Cardiff||reply 46||04/25/2013|
Off Topic: If you get a chance, Vincent Bugliosi's book "And The Sea Will Tell" is really good. It's about a murder on the uninhabited atoll Palmyra.
|by Grace Cardiff||reply 47||04/25/2013|
Stephen Parent also had a criminal record and spent time in juvenile jail.
The murders were about 2 things
1.) copycat killings to free Beausoliel
Manson was a drug dealer. That he was a drug deale, and that people who were murdered. or were close family members of the murdered, had drug and criminal histories is relevant. Bugliosi crafted an idiotic theory about Manson bringing about a race war to win his case. Drugs were a thread that ran through all the murders, not some stupid made up story about Manson almost supernaturally controlling his criminal gang members in order to bring about the apocalypse.
Some people claim Rosemary LaBianca was a dealer in a drug ring and that's where her "dress" money came from. Leno was a heavy gambler and was deeply in debt. He could no longer embezzle from his family because they were removing him from his position in the family business. Where would there money come from to pay for the houses, the boat, the cars? Leno was buying a ranch at the time of the killings. Where was he getting the money for a ranch when he was more than $30,000 in debt and needed to make restitution to his family for the money he'd stolen from them?
Susan Struthers/LaBerge became one of Tex Watson's biggest supporters after he went to jail.
|by Grace Cardiff||reply 48||04/25/2013|
MOTIVE is one of the most important parts of a murder case. And Helter Skelter was not the motive. Period. Bugliosi made it up to get convictions. His star witness was a hardcore drug user and thief. She abandoned her baby with the Manson family. She made a deal to help win the case. She was at both murder scenes, did not try to stop the murders and did not go to police about the murders afterwards, though she had plenty of opportunity.
Bugliosi didn't want people to know about the drug part of the motives because the jury might not convict the killers of first degree or second degree murder if they knew victims and killers were acquainted and had done business with each other in the drug trade. It was a huge case and Bugliosi made his bones on it.
|by Grace Cardiff||reply 49||04/25/2013|