Hello and thank you for being a DL contributor. We are changing the login scheme for contributors for simpler login and to better support using multiple devices. Please click here to update your account with a username and password.

Hello. Some features on this site require registration. Please click here to register for free.

Hello and thank you for registering. Please complete the process by verifying your email address. If you can't find the email you can resend it here.

Hello. Some features on this site require a subscription. Please click here to get full access and no ads for $1.99 or less per month.

Lizzie Borden Murder Case Gets New Look With Discovery of Her Lawyer's Journals

The notorious 19th-century trial of Lizzie Borden, a wealthy New England woman accused of killing her parents with an ax, is back in the spotlight with the discovery of her attorney's handwritten journals, providing fresh insight into the relationship with her father.

Borden was acquitted in 1892, and much of the evidence in the case ended up with Andrew Jackson Jennings, Borden's attorney. The two journals, which Jennings stored in a Victorian bathtub along with other evidence from the case, including the infamous "handless hatchet," were left to the Fall River Historical Society by Jennings' grandson, who died last year.

The society received the fragile journals about a month ago but won't be exhibited until they are properly preserved, curator Michael Martins said.

Each journal is about 100 pages. One contains a series of newspaper clippings, indexed using a lettering and number system that Jennings devised. The second contains personal notes that Jennings assembled from interviews he conducted. Some of the individuals interviewed are people mentioned in the newspaper clippings Jennings retained.

"A number of the people Jennings spoke to were people he knew intimately, on a social or business level, so many of them were perhaps more candid with him than they would have been otherwise," Martins said. "But it's also evident that there are a number of new individuals he spoke to who had previously not been connected with the case."

Martins and fellow curator Dennis A. Binette published a book last year called "Parallel Lives" that included five photographs and 40 letters and documents in Borden's hand that had not been previously published.

Borden was imprisoned in Taunton, Mass., for 10 months pending her trial, and several of the letters published in "Parallel Lives" were written from her prison cell. Borden, who was 32 at trial, has been portrayed as a cold, stoic individual who showed no emotion, but the letters show a sensitive, grieving side of her.

Borden's father, Andrew Borden, became known as an evil man who did not provide for his daughters. But Martins says the journals and letters paint Andrew Borden differently.

"You have to create villains in order to justify the murders, and Andrew Borden is portrayed as evil, but he gave his daughters a lot more than some other fathers were giving theirs," Martins said.

Jennings' notes in his journals show he interviewed people who knew the Borden family intimately and were familiar with Andrew Borden's relationship with his daughters.

"Lizzie Borden cared for her father very deeply," Martins said. "There was a tremendous outpouring of grief in the letters, and that's a new side to the story."

Because the journals are so fragile, Martins has been unable to read them in their entirety, but he said it's unlikely they include a "smoking gun" that would prove Lizzie Borden killed her father and stepmother. Instead, they provide insight into the character of Lizzie Borden, who, despite her acquittal, was deemed by the public to be a brutal ax murderess, evident in the twisted nursery rhyme:

"Lizzie Borden took an Ax, And gave her mother forty whacks, When she had seen what she had done, She gave her father forty-one."

"Most of what is known about Lizzie Borden is based on legend, innuendo and outright lies," Martins said. "Fact has been suppressed by fiction, and the fiction is much more interesting to a lot of people."

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 172April 7, 2013 1:18 AM

I LOVE this case. Have read every book on the subject.

The two most convincing made different cases: one "proved" that Bridget, the maid, did it. The other proved that Lizzie's little known step-brother did it.

The one thing both books have in common: complete conviction that Lizzie herself was innocent.

And it sure does look like Lizzie was a lezzie. She spent most of her life with a female "companion."

by Anonymousreply 1March 14, 2012 7:27 PM

"The two most convincing made different cases: one "proved" that Bridget, the maid, did it. The other proved that Lizzie's little known step-brother did it."

Oh, give it a rest. ALL the evidence points to the guilt of Lizzie Borden. She had the motive. She had the means. The story she told the authorities about her whereabouts during the crime (in a sweltering hayloft looking for sinkers in order to go fishing and eating pears) was ridiculous. She burned a dress. SHE did it. It's just more interesting (and profitable) to put forth outlandish theories saying the maid did it, or a enemy of Andrew Borden did, or the step-brother did it, or Lizzie's poor mousy sister did it.

The "female companion" Lizzie spent almost her entire life with with was her sister. The sister moved out after Lizzie threw a big party for the theater troupe of a now forgotten actress named Nance O'Neill. Some people have said the Lizzie and O'Neill were lovers? Who knows? Or cares? The fact is that Lizzie Borden was a very strange woman who killed her father and stepmother in order to inherit her father's estate. End of story.

by Anonymousreply 2March 14, 2012 7:44 PM

[quote] The fact is that Lizzie Borden was a very strange woman who killed her father and stepmother in order to inherit her father's estate.

My hero!

by Anonymousreply 3March 14, 2012 7:47 PM

R2 may well be the stupidest DLer ever! Congratulations!

by Anonymousreply 4March 14, 2012 7:50 PM

R3 Is that you Eric? Or are you Lyle?

by Anonymousreply 5March 14, 2012 7:53 PM

R4 IS the stupidest DLer ever! Congrats!

by Anonymousreply 6March 14, 2012 7:58 PM

R2 -- there was a lady friend, but how friendly she might have been is pure conjecture.

by Anonymousreply 7March 14, 2012 8:06 PM

R2 and r4, you are both stupid. Now stop bickering before I have to pull this car over.

by Anonymousreply 8March 14, 2012 8:15 PM

The butler did it!

by Anonymousreply 9March 14, 2012 8:23 PM

O'Neill liked her because she did what he was too a'scared to do. Murder his parents. Course what would he write about?

by Anonymousreply 10March 14, 2012 8:27 PM

Oops. Wrong O'Neill. Sorry

by Anonymousreply 11March 14, 2012 8:28 PM

What do you mean "who knows, who cares?" R2? This case is almost 120 years old and is still discussed. People are fascinated by it. So yeah, people care.

by Anonymousreply 12March 14, 2012 8:28 PM

[quote]The two most convincing made different cases: one "proved" that Bridget, the maid, did it. The other proved that Lizzie's little known step-brother did it.

Complete bullshit. My god, that sounds amateur. You need to read the writing on the wall: Lizzie did it. The evidence is overwhelmingly. This is like the OJ trial. She got off because of her background. Anyone else would have been hanged. She was an ungrateful little brat.

by Anonymousreply 13March 14, 2012 8:32 PM

BTW, the most they'll find is that she was a dyke.

There's nothing new to be discovered, unless Lizzie went into the future and got a video game and filmed herself killing them.

These idiots drum up these dead cases all the time with these supposed "new discoveries that'll shed new light on a case". 99% of the time it's all hype, and in this case, it is. They probably need funds.

by Anonymousreply 14March 14, 2012 8:33 PM

I beg to differ, R14.

by Anonymousreply 15March 14, 2012 8:35 PM

Lizzie was guilty as hell. If DNA testing had been around back then she would have been convicted and hanged in the town square, which was the punishment for murder in the Commonwealth of MA in the 19th century.

by Anonymousreply 16March 14, 2012 8:41 PM

"This case is almost 120 years old and is still discussed. People are fascinated by it. So yeah, people care."

I was referring to Lizzie's sexual orientation. Some people believe she was a lesbian. She did have a close "friendship" with Nance O'Neil and she wrote a letter to a friend saying she had dreamed of her "but I dare not put my dream on paper", which for some people is proof that that Lizzie was a lez. But it's pure speculation. But why should anybody care if she was a lesbian? What difference does it make if she was or wasn't?

All the theories exonerating Lizzie are also pure speculation. There has never been any definitive proof that firmly establishes her innocence. But people just love mysteries, so that's why there's been a spate of books claiming to have "solved" the murders. The fact is that despite all the evidence, the all-male jury that adquitted Lizzie Borden simply could not belive that a proper, church-going young lady could ax-murder her father and step-mother. That's how Lizzie got off. The jury just didn't want to believe she could do it.

by Anonymousreply 17March 14, 2012 8:45 PM

The burning of the dress has always been suspicious as was the laughter on the staircase and the fact that there were no imprints in the barn loft where she claimed she had been when the murders were committed.

by Anonymousreply 18March 14, 2012 8:50 PM

For those intereset in further details or a good introduction:

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 19March 14, 2012 8:51 PM

Why would anybody store journals in a bath tub of all places? Stupid.

by Anonymousreply 20March 14, 2012 8:54 PM

Lizzie had crazy eyes. She even looked like a whack job (haha).

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 21March 14, 2012 8:58 PM

Angry lesbians are truly scary.

by Anonymousreply 22March 14, 2012 9:01 PM

[quote]You need to read the writing on the wall: Lizzie did it. The evidence is overwhelmingly. This is like the OJ trial. She got off because of her background.

I agree. What's interesting is the endless debate it engendered: people still, 120 years later, can't believe a nice, young church going lady of means would take an axe to her dad and stepmom.

by Anonymousreply 23March 14, 2012 9:06 PM

I loved watching The Legend of Lizzie Borden starring Elizabeth Montgomery. The best TV drama I've seen in years. A remake was supposedly in the works starting Jennifer Love Hewitt.

by Anonymousreply 24March 14, 2012 9:23 PM

I've never doubted that Lizzie was guilty. I think that she was afraid that her skinflint father was going to leave his fortune to her despised stepmother, Abby; he'd already signed over a farm to her and was preparing to hand over more. Therefore, Abby and Dad had to go!

(Writer Florence King wrote a fascinating essay about this case. People always wondered how Lizzie's person had no blood on it, minutes after her father was murdered. King speculated that Lizzie wore one dress on top of another; after the murder, she hid the bloody one inside another one hanging in her closet, and burned it a few days later. Lizzie washed the blood off her skin with a rag and stuck it in a slop bucket--she was menstruating at the time and had a whole bucket of bloody rags in her bedroom.)

by Anonymousreply 25March 14, 2012 9:23 PM

[quote]I agree. What's interesting is the endless debate it engendered: people still, 120 years later, can't believe a nice, young church going lady of means would take an axe to her dad and stepmom.

It was unheard of during that century, that's why Lizzie got off.

by Anonymousreply 26March 14, 2012 9:25 PM

I agree about the Elizabeth Montgomery TV movie about Lizzie. It was very well-done.

by Anonymousreply 27March 14, 2012 9:29 PM

Yeah, Lizzie did it, but her cheapskate father made the family eat spoiled mutton on a sweltering, summer day. The wanker had it coming.

by Anonymousreply 28March 14, 2012 9:32 PM

If only Agnes Moorehead could have played the stepmother . . .

by Anonymousreply 29March 14, 2012 9:33 PM

The Agnes De Mille ballet, "Fall River Legend," is really discomforting to watch as "Lizzie" dances around the ax...

by Anonymousreply 30March 14, 2012 9:34 PM

In the movie, the family ate old spoiled soup with flies. That's just nasty.

by Anonymousreply 31March 14, 2012 9:36 PM

I love the way the asshole at r2 expounds on the whole thing without having read the two books in question. I haven't read the "Bridget Did It' book, but I did read the other one, and it was very convincing about Lizzie's half-bro being the killer. Lots of evidence, which r2/17 etc has none of - he just spouts his theories without any kind of back up.

There are Lizzie Borden scholars, and they know a hell of a lot more than r2/17.

by Anonymousreply 32March 14, 2012 9:37 PM

R28--somebody once claimed that that ghastly breakfast was the motive. Warmed-over mutton, bananas, cookies, pears--on a sweltering August morning. Also, Bridget (the maid) saw Andrew Borden dump out his overflowing slop jar by the pear trees in the back yard--then reach down, PICK UP SOME PEARS LYING THERE, and bring them in for breakfast. She spent a lot of the morning vomiting. (She also had to deal with Andrew brushing his teeth next to her as she washed dishes. Maybe Bridget did do it, after all.)

by Anonymousreply 33March 14, 2012 9:38 PM

R21--she had the Hillary/Chelsea pop-eyed thing going on. Terrifying!

by Anonymousreply 34March 14, 2012 9:39 PM

All the people who are spout the "Of course she did it, she was laughing, etc." fall prey to what I call the 'frau fallacy': people who don't act hysterical at crime scenes when they are involved there are *obviously* guilty.

Even the blood on the dress doesn't mean she actually committed the crime-she could have been an accessory, or come upon the scene afterwards.

Just because one is a psychopath does not make them a murderer.

I read a lot about the case years ago, and I think it's 50-50 as to her guilt.

by Anonymousreply 35March 14, 2012 9:49 PM

Even long before the murders took place, Lizzie Borden was not at all popular in Fall River, MA. People tended to avoid her because she was perceived to be "touched in the head" or "off." She was a very strange woman and not at all friendly or normal and quite reclusive, according to numerous accounts of people in Fall River who were acquainted with her.

by Anonymousreply 36March 14, 2012 9:50 PM

R33, wasn't a slop jar a sort-of bedpan? Am I correct about that? If so, that fucker was disgusting.

by Anonymousreply 37March 14, 2012 9:54 PM

R37--yes, it was a bedpan. Isn't that a lovely story?

by Anonymousreply 38March 14, 2012 9:56 PM

Guilty as sin. Please. Batshit crazy and the maid was in on it. Amazing that people believe the nonsense about her and quickly dismiss the idea that OJ is innocent.

by Anonymousreply 39March 14, 2012 9:57 PM

A slop jar is a metal bucket. Basically, a less elegant version of a chamber pot.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 40March 14, 2012 9:57 PM

[quote]The fact is that despite all the evidence, the all-male jury that adquitted Lizzie Borden simply could not belive that a proper, church-going young lady could ax-murder her father and step-mother. That's how Lizzie got off. The jury just didn't want to believe she could do it.

Wow.

She was the Casey Anthony of the 19th century.

by Anonymousreply 41March 14, 2012 9:58 PM

Book recomendations?

by Anonymousreply 42March 14, 2012 9:58 PM

estrogen kills

by Anonymousreply 43March 14, 2012 10:05 PM

If the jar has no shit, you must acquit.

by Anonymousreply 44March 14, 2012 10:07 PM

I LOVED the Elizabeth Montgomery movie "The Legend of Lizzie Borden."

Whoever built the interior sets for the movie really did their homework -- the rooms match exactly the layout of the actual Bordon house.

Favorite camp moment from the movie: "If I were not a lady...I should twist your arm, Mrs. Bordon, right out of its socket!"

See the clip, starting at about 2:58

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 45March 14, 2012 10:10 PM

It *was* a particularly good TV movie.

by Anonymousreply 46March 14, 2012 10:13 PM

Thanks R45

Katherine Helmond, pre nose job

by Anonymousreply 47March 14, 2012 10:14 PM

Liz went full nude in that movie, for the version that was released theatrically in Europe. It's the scene when Lizzie takes off her clothes to commit the murders (which is just a supposition scene, I think). On TV here, you only see her shoulders and legs, but you got to see her full body from behind over there.

by Anonymousreply 48March 14, 2012 10:19 PM

I'd suggest that anyone interested in this case read Florence King's chapter on the subject -- I believe that it's in "WASP, Where Is Thy Sting?" She describe's Lizzie's killings of her father and step mother as the ultimate silent gesture.

by Anonymousreply 49March 14, 2012 11:53 PM

"I love the way the asshole at [R2] expounds on the whole thing without having read the two books in question. I haven't read the "Bridget Did It' book, but I did read the other one, and it was very convincing about Lizzie's half-bro being the killer. Lots of evidence, which [R2]/17 etc has none of - he just spouts his theories without any kind of back up.

There are Lizzie Borden scholars, and they know a hell of a lot more than [R2]/17."

I happen to know quite a bit about this case, you cunt. And the evidence proves Lizzie Borden did it. You sound like an ignorant fucker who believes every half-assed book about Lizzie Borden that says she didn't do it. You WANT to believe she didn't do it, just like the idiot jury who let her off. You're as brain-dead as they were. Now piss off!

by Anonymousreply 50March 15, 2012 12:28 AM

[quote]"You have to create villains in order to justify the murders, and Andrew Borden is portrayed as evil, but he gave his daughters a lot more than some other fathers were giving theirs,"

He diddled them?

by Anonymousreply 51March 15, 2012 12:35 AM

But r50, at least he provided a bit of "facts" of what he read. You didn't. You just came on with an attidude of "just believe me cause I said so, idiot".

I too would like to know more and appreciate OP trying to mention some books, even if its without a complete title. There's nothing wrong with a different take on it.

by Anonymousreply 52March 15, 2012 12:35 AM

Here it is, R49:

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 53March 15, 2012 12:36 AM

R50 is clearly on a smoke break from her court ordered anger management therapy group.

by Anonymousreply 54March 15, 2012 12:37 AM

Lizzie Borden, The Legend, The Truth, the Final Chapter, by Arthur Brown, is the book that makes a convincing case for her half-brother being the killer.

Forty Whacks by David Kent doesn't offer a solution, but does a very convincing job taking apart the flimsy evidence against her.

And r50, how is WANTING to believe she didn't do it any different that your WANTING to believe she DID it? You aren't going to believe different because you're invested in the idea that she was guilty.

by Anonymousreply 55March 15, 2012 12:44 AM

OJ has announced from his prison cell that he will look for the killer of Lizzy Borden's father and stepmother.

by Anonymousreply 56March 15, 2012 1:03 AM

There's a truly amazing play about Lizzie called "Blood Relations." It made the LORT circuit several years back.

It's Lizzie in her later life with Nance ... and Nance forces her to relive the murders. Really incredible writing.

And what's up with the Lizzie hate. Please, it was a 150 years ago and it's all become an abstraction. From some of the frothing in this thread you'd think it happened yesterday. True, the level on misogyny on this board sometimes rises to stunning levels, but give it a rest, huh?

by Anonymousreply 57March 15, 2012 1:27 AM

"Lizzie Borden, The Legend, The Truth, the Final Chapter, by Arthur Brown, is the book that makes a convincing case for her half-brother being the killer."

You must be Arthur Brown's publicist, because THAT is a lot of horseshit.

This is from an informed article in Yankee Magazine called "Did Lizzie Borden Really Take an Ax and Give Her Mother 40 Whacks?" by Edgar Beem:

"Most Borden buffs regard "Lizzie Borden: The Legend, the Truth, the Final Chapter" as just a fascinating piece of fiction. In reviewing Brown's book for "The Fall River Historical Society Quarterly Report," Fall River attorney John C. Corrigan Jr. writes that it is "long on legend, short on the truth, and not destined to be the final chapter at all."

In his defense, Arnold Brown argues that "I have set up a premise of what could have happened."

"A premise of what could have happened." Yep, that sounds like he solved the murders once and for all alright (rolls eyes)!

by Anonymousreply 58March 15, 2012 1:33 AM

Elizabeth Montgomery gave the performance of a lifetime as Lizzie Borden. It is positively criminal that she didn't win the Emmy for her extraordinarily layered and bone-chilling work.

by Anonymousreply 59March 15, 2012 1:36 AM

I could be wrong r59, but they may not have given Emmys for TV movies back then.

by Anonymousreply 60March 15, 2012 1:40 AM

Wow, r2 is really invested in this, isn't she?

by Anonymousreply 61March 15, 2012 1:41 AM

[quote]I could be wrong [R59], but they may not have given Emmys for TV movies back then.

They did. She was nominated, but lost to Katharine Hepburn.

by Anonymousreply 62March 15, 2012 1:44 AM

This guy thinks Lizzie's stepmother Abby caught Lizzie in flagrante with the maid. Interesting, and plausible, theory.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 63March 15, 2012 1:58 AM

Lizzie is innocent.

by Anonymousreply 64March 15, 2012 2:41 AM

Elizabeth Montgomery always said she hated playing Lizzie Borden. Borden has no magic powers.

by Anonymousreply 65March 15, 2012 2:48 AM

"Angry lesbians are truly scary."

You're just easily scared.

by Anonymousreply 66March 15, 2012 2:52 AM

[quote]All the people who are spout the "Of course she did it, she was laughing, etc." fall prey to what I call the 'frau fallacy': people who don't act hysterical at crime scenes when they are involved there are *obviously* guilty.

Hear Hear !

by Anonymousreply 67March 15, 2012 3:24 AM

R53, Thanks, that Florence King Article is a a very good read and summary of the case that was presented.

by Anonymousreply 68March 15, 2012 4:03 AM

Lizzie was an odd duck. Her lawyer got her off, in part, because he was connected to the judge who presided over the case. She alienated the friends she later had by shoplifting from their homes. All the credible evidence points to her. She was exonerated because, as someone else pointed out here, no one could believe that a woman could ever commit such a heinous crime. Sexism actually saved her.

by Anonymousreply 69March 15, 2012 4:14 AM

Thanks for the Florence King link, r53. LOL

"Something had to be done, but what? Lacking lady-like poison, Lizzie did what every overcivilized, understated Wasp is entirely capable of doing once we finally admit we're mad as hell and aren't going to take it any more: She went from Anglo to Saxon in a trice."

by Anonymousreply 70March 15, 2012 4:51 AM

" Lizzie washed the blood off her skin with a rag and stuck it in a slop bucket--she was menstruating at the time and had a whole bucket of bloody rags in her bedroom.)"

Most disgusting post ever posted on DL.

by Anonymousreply 71March 15, 2012 5:14 AM

[quote]It is positively criminal that she didn't win the Emmy for her extraordinarily layered and bone-chilling work.

All those years later the Emmy voters were still unable to shake off the horror of seeing Montgomery as Cousin Serena singing "I'll Blow You a Kiss in the Wind" on Bewitched.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 72March 15, 2012 5:44 AM

Oops, correct link here.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 73March 15, 2012 5:55 AM

I remember being a young gay lad and begging my parents to let me watch the Lizzie Borden movie Samantha from Bewitched was in even though they said I would be too scared. They finally relented after a mini-tantrum and TO THIS DAY I remain traumatized by some of the scenes, including the breakfast and that damn effective, but creepy musical score. And Montgomery was brilliant.

by Anonymousreply 74March 15, 2012 5:59 AM

R71, you're a newbie, right? Because that post was tame by most DL bloody-cunt-rag-bucket standards. Not one maggot-infested steaming cat turd being pulled out of the slop for a rape tool in the whole post!

by Anonymousreply 75March 15, 2012 5:59 AM

R2/50 is a lunatic.

by Anonymousreply 76March 15, 2012 6:09 AM

A slop bucket is a receptical for nasty left overs and other food items that are later fed to pigs.

by Anonymousreply 77March 15, 2012 6:20 AM

R76 sounds like a clueless idiot who wants to believe Lizzie Borden was innocent, despite all the evidence pointing to her guilt. No doubt the poor, gullible sap believes OJ and Casey Anthony are "innocent" too.

As for Lizzie Borden...well, just look at pictures of her. Look at her eyes. Those are not the eyes of a sane person.

by Anonymousreply 78March 15, 2012 2:05 PM

Lizzie inherited the crazy eyes from her mother.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 79March 15, 2012 2:13 PM

ILoved the elizabeth montgomery tv movie. I would agree with the dress burning and lying she did it.

by Anonymousreply 80March 15, 2012 2:24 PM

Liz was a lez is certain.

Liz and Maggie, which wasn't even her name, were lez lovers.

If Liz didn't do it, then she knew who did and kept silent. There's no way if she didn't do it, then she could not have known who did it.

The leading theory is that Liz's step mother wet her pants and Liz was giving her a spanking and shook her too hard. Then she axed her to cover up the death. The father walked in and she had to axe him too.

by Anonymousreply 81August 25, 2012 8:20 AM

I really want to see this movie everyone is talking about, The Ledgend of Lizzie Borden. Not on Netflix or amazon...anyone have any ideas where I might pick it up?

by Anonymousreply 82August 25, 2012 9:24 AM

R82, did you try searching for it on Google? It's on YouTube. Do you know how to use Google?

by Anonymousreply 83August 25, 2012 9:37 AM

There is no dispositive evidence either way in this case. If there was it was never proffered. Unless there is we will never know if she was guilty or not. As it is, she stands acquitted and therefore not guilty.

I remain open minded and willing to be convinced one way or the other. Though I must say I'm rather tired of this case since I've read about it since I was a child.

I hope there are no attorney client privileged communications or other attorney work product within these papers because anything like that remains privileged forever and no one at this point has a right to see them without a court order.

by Anonymousreply 84August 25, 2012 9:40 AM

R83, what is google? Is it a game? What does it have to do with Lizzie Borden? What is tube?

I'm sorry, I am new to the Internet.

by Anonymousreply 85August 25, 2012 9:44 AM

R85 = Davida-Rochelle

by Anonymousreply 86August 25, 2012 9:52 AM

Brenda fucking Dickson had the video of r45's link deleted?

WTF?

by Anonymousreply 87August 25, 2012 10:04 AM

R87, just search youtube, it's up, do you know how to search? Have you just been released from a 30 year prison sentence?

by Anonymousreply 88August 25, 2012 10:23 AM

I was just commenting how it says Brenda Dickson had the clip deleted you dope. Before I read your post r88 I was watching full movie on youtube but its too late and I need sleep...

So far EM's performance is not as good as I remember she's acting guilty as sin ....

by Anonymousreply 89August 25, 2012 10:34 AM

I think Daddy diddled her.

by Anonymousreply 90August 25, 2012 1:35 PM

I think she's fabulous!

by Anonymousreply 91August 25, 2012 1:51 PM

Lizzie didn't do it. It's obvious that a man did it.

by Anonymousreply 92August 25, 2012 2:17 PM

I have heard that Lizzie's father sexually abused her and her sister and Lizzie had a lot of anger built up against her father and snapped. Also, back in the late 1800's, it was very chic for very wealthy American women to take a tour of Europe, which was very expensive. I think it was called the Grand Tour.But, her father wouldn't give her the money so that pushed her over the edge as well.

by Anonymousreply 93August 25, 2012 2:26 PM

Obviously there was nothing to prove her guilty. And if she really did kil her parents (which I doubt) they probably deserved it...or the father did.

by Anonymousreply 94August 25, 2012 2:29 PM

Some psychic said the father abused the girls. Beat the mother, liked to watch the girls have sex with each other. Maybe just a psychic with a dirty mind?

by Anonymousreply 95August 25, 2012 2:34 PM

[quote]Some psychic said . . .

Nothing heralds complete bullsit quite as effectively as those three words.

by Anonymousreply 96August 25, 2012 3:51 PM

[quote]how friendly she might have been is pure conjecture.

The rumors about Lizzie being a lezzie were unusual because they're a bit more realistic than most. Frequently when people speculate about gays from that time it's based on florid letters or old maids living together, which didn't necessarily indicate a sexual relationship.

With Borden, there were actually contemporaries who thought she way gay, not just speculating historians. The actress she lived with was a known lesbian.

Most damning, a husband divorcing his wife on charges of lesbianism named her as the respondent.

Circumstantial evidence: her religious fundie sister turned away from her and made cryptic remarks about her scandalous living.

The accounts from contemporaries of her schooldays also sometimes paint a picture of a slightly butch, unpopular girl.

[quote]We find her at the Morgan Street Grammar School when 14. Then she was a stout, blooming, strapping lass. Her great characteristic was keeping to herself. She had one and only one chum, a girl about her own age, who is now married and lives in Rhode Island.

I saw a picture of the best friend (not the Linda Tripp-esque old biddy Alice Russell), and gayface for days.

by Anonymousreply 97August 25, 2012 4:24 PM

Elizabeth Montgomery wuold've one the Emmy, even though the category was hyper-competitive at the time during the golden age of tv movies. She just had the misfortune of being nominated the same year Katherine Hepburn decided to start slumming on tv.

[quote] In the movie, the family ate old spoiled soup with flies. That's just nasty.

The point being that the father was an extreme skinflint. He did live in house well beneath his level of wealth. Being forced to eat rotten soup could probably drive anyone to murder.

The upper floor also had no hallway, they had to go through each other's bedrooms to get to their own. Increasing the already high level of tension. The hated step-mom, the asshole skinflint father. And yes there's also speculation he molested her.

I think she did it, but I don't think it was just a case of a spoiled brat who wanted the money.

by Anonymousreply 98August 25, 2012 5:19 PM

Between Bewitched and her movies, Montgomery was nominated and lost the emmy 8 or 9 times. I saw an interview with her probably a few years before she died where she joked she and Susan Lucci could make a movie together, both get nominated and both lose.

I am a little surprised she did not win for Bewtiched considering how big of a hit it was the first few years, but I suppose in the early years she was up against Mary Tyler Moore as Laura Petrie and Bewitched became less sharply written and more of a broadly written cartoon in the later years.

I read her Case of Rape movie was pretty cutting edge for the time in presenting a more realistic view from the victim's perspective.

It's too bad she did not win for either Bewitched or one of her movies. She has always been a favorite of mine.

by Anonymousreply 99August 25, 2012 5:38 PM

I enjoyed reading the book that argued the maid Bridget did it, but in the end I didn't find it completely convincing.

There are two books I loved. One was written I think in the early 1970s by a retired judge - I want to say a retired Supreme Court justice, but I'm not sure. (I did a google check and couldn't find it.)

The other is [italic]A Private Disgrace: Lizzie Borden by Daylight[/italic], written by Victoria Lincoln in 1967.

Lincoln grew up in Fall River and knew Lizzie - thereby providing a really good feel for the community in general and the family in particular. And she’s a pretty good writer on top of that, which makes the book even more entertaining.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 100August 25, 2012 5:41 PM

if Lizzie was alive in 2012, she would have carved some messages on the victims, stripped naked and used some cable ties to bind her ankles and wrists and hopped over to the neighbor's house to report a "hate crime".

by Anonymousreply 101August 25, 2012 5:52 PM

Accusing the poor Irish maid was ye olde New England's version of "a black guy did it".

So even if you don't study the facts of the case, you can tell the prosecutors knew they had the right person, if they were willing to accuse the rich wasp over the maid.

The most convincing thing for me is, having read the wacky theories about outsiders, or the maid, doing the murder, is the hoops the authors have to go through to keep Lizzie out of the vicinity of the murders during the relatively long period between and during.

by Anonymousreply 102August 25, 2012 5:53 PM

r2 should have been a crib death

by Anonymousreply 103August 25, 2012 6:00 PM

R103 = poor mentally retarded cunt

by Anonymousreply 104August 25, 2012 6:05 PM

There was no way Lezzie didn't do it.

Mr Borden was generous with his mooching daughters. He gave them property and what did the sisters do? They sold it.

The sisters had an easy nice life, the problem, while Emma thought she should just be lucky to get anything, (Though she was a bitch about the property she got too), Lizzie thought she was above it.

In fact both the sisters called Bridget Sullivan, the maid, Maggie, because they felt they couldn't be bothered to learn the new name of the "help." Maggie was the old housekeeper that quit.

Bridget had no complaints and was paid, standard wages by Borden. She only did the bottom floors and her own attic room. Lez and Enema were supposed to keep their own rooms cleaned while Mrs "Fake" Borden kept her room and the guest room clean.

Basically it would be like Bill Gates moving into a working class neighborhood today and his kids thinking they should live in Beverly Hills.

by Anonymousreply 105August 25, 2012 6:29 PM

Did you ever look at Bridet's picture.

LEZ FACE.

Her and Lezzie were lovers and Mr. Borden said, "OK enough of that."

So Lezzie axed him to mind his own business. Lez took the rap, and only afterwords did the two despondent Sisters of Sappho realize they could never be seen together or it would confirm their guilt.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 106August 25, 2012 6:33 PM

You have a fine memory, r105.

by Anonymousreply 107August 25, 2012 6:35 PM

r103 = has the same anal cancer Farrah had

by Anonymousreply 108August 25, 2012 7:06 PM

r104 = eats out both dead grandmothers maggoty filled cunts.

by Anonymousreply 109August 25, 2012 7:08 PM

r105

So you're saying Lizzie and Emma just sat around all day? Didn't they have jobs?

by Anonymousreply 110August 25, 2012 7:13 PM

R110, I was JUST coming to ask that same question. I am not an expert on unmarried 19th century women, but they were both in their thirties at the time of the murders. Why were they forced to eat spoiled mutton? Did either of them have paying jobs?

After the Bordens paid off Abby's family, did they really have enough money to live on for the rest of their lives?

by Anonymousreply 111August 25, 2012 7:19 PM

Lizzie and her sister did not have jobs. Women of their social class in that time did not work at all. If a woman of that class didn't get married, she was dependent on male relatives like a father or brother for the rest of her life. It was a dreary, miserable existence.

As soon as Lizzie inherited her money, she sold the family home and moved to a nice house in the fashionable district of Fall River, where she lived for the rest of her life. She inherited enough money to live quite comfortably.

by Anonymousreply 112August 25, 2012 7:29 PM

Wow, R110, you must have a pretty limited history education.

What do you think was half the point feminism came about?

Women couldn't really get jobs, unless they were lower class with absolutely no alternative and wanted to scrub windows for little pay. Possibly teaching (which Lizzie did a little of on a volunteer basis I believe).

The only expected life path was getting married, or in the case of women like Lizzie and Emma that had money and wouldn't marry, do a bunch of charity shit. They wouldn't have been permitted to take over a business like their father's.

by Anonymousreply 113August 25, 2012 7:30 PM

R103, R108 and R109 are all the same pathetic, demented, dickweed troll (trolldar never lies) with a crush on Lizzie Borden. Lizzie Borden! Poor bastard. The nasty little mental defective is obviously up for a pissing contest (it would brighten up his barren life) but he's just a pitiful loser not worth the time of day. No doubt everyone who comes in contact with him wishes he were dead. He'll die a virgin, alone in his lonely one-room apartment and nobody will notice until an unpleasant smell starts to prevade the hallway.

by Anonymousreply 114August 25, 2012 9:49 PM

Unmarried middle-class women of that era led a miserable existence. They couldn't get jobs, and they couldn't live on their own, they had to be dependent on some relative, and bear all the indignities of dependence and low status. They were regarded as worthless and treated like unpaid servants. They had to obey the master and mistress of the house in all things, do any median work they were told, and accept spoiled mutton while the master and mistress ate steak and lobster.

There were probably a lot of familial murders in those days. Why this one got more press than most, I don't know.

by Anonymousreply 115August 25, 2012 10:48 PM

[quote]There were probably a lot of familial murders in those days. Why this one got more press than most, I don't know.

I've always wondered this. In Lizzie's case it got a lot of press because the murders were committed with an axe. Women have always preferred using poison. Even today, a woman killing with a weapon is uncommon. I suspect there were other old-maid spinsters (in the 19th century you were an old maid in your 30's) who used arsenic to kill and therefore were never caught. I'm sure Lizzie wasn't the only one who did it to get at an inheritance.

by Anonymousreply 116August 25, 2012 10:55 PM

Oh yeah I'm masturbating to Lizzie Borden's crazy lezzie eyes as I type FAP FAP FAP FAP FAP FAP FAP FAP FAP FAP FAP FAP FAP FAP FAP!

r103/8/9

by Anonymousreply 117August 26, 2012 12:03 AM

So was Katharine Hepburn any good in "Love Among the Ruins"? Or did they just give her an Emmy 'cause she was Hepburn?

by Anonymousreply 118August 26, 2012 12:30 AM

The murders got press because the family was high society. And it made good reading.

The same way FOX News is criticized today, that is how newspapers were back then. They had newspapers that were pro-Lizzie and those that were anti-Lizzie.

The fact that Lizzie was from a family with money and status made for scandal. It put the rich with the commoner. The fact that Mr. Borden was not really in society also played into it.

Borden had the family name, but he actually made his own wealth. He didn't have it handed to him. He COULD HAVE been in society but chose to stay out of it.

This was Lizzie's problem with him. Much is made how cheap he was but he was only cheap compared to other men with his money.

If I said, "Bill Gates, rides the bus because he is too cheap to buy a car."

Mr. Borden for instance, refused to put in modern flush toilets.

It's often said that the Borden house was a railroad flat, but the design was worse, it was a shotgun flat. It's rooms connected directly, there were no hallways (see link for floor plan)

This created issues like there was no way to get to Emma's bedroom without going through Lizzie's room first.

After Lizzie was suspected of stealing from her father, the dad sealed the upstairs doors so the only way to enter the parent's suite was through the back stairs on the first floor.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 119August 26, 2012 5:16 AM

I may be wrong, R119, but I think the main reason the case got so much press was the sheer novelty of a woman being tried as an ax-murderer.

by Anonymousreply 120August 26, 2012 7:58 AM

spoiled mutton

by Anonymousreply 121August 26, 2012 8:06 AM

That's because it wasn't just for the inheritance, r116. It was overkill, and overkill is always about a raging hatred of the victim. The money was probably a contributing factor, but hatred was the primary motivation. And that's why many suspect Liz had been molested.

by Anonymousreply 122August 26, 2012 8:09 AM

Yes, these murders weren't not done professionally such as one shot and that was that. These were murders , which were obviously an act of tremendous anger and rage taken out on these two people. There is no doubt it had to be a relative who had suppressed anger against the two victims,who flipped off the handle. That journal that was found recently, documented by Lizzie's lawyer, is still questionable because Lizzie could have put on a show for him to believe her. She could have been a psychopathic liar which psychopaths can turn on one behavior ,and turn it off within a snap. They can manipulate people into believing their lies.

I still think the father must have had a lot of control over his two daughters because both of them were unmarried and they were still tending to their parents needs. If he wasn't controlling, at least one of the sister would have married I'm sure. Back then it was automatic expectancy for the children to respect their parents and you were not allowed to clash with them. Whatever they told you to do, you did it. I'm surprised that Lizzie was put on trial because they believed in those days that the wealthy did not commit murders, especially wealth women.They thought only the lower class were capable of crime back then. Its not surprising that Lizzie got away with it because money because she was in the arena of high society and wealth.

I agree that back then there was extreme limitation for women to play a role in society. A job that was open to women back then were, being a teacher, nurse, secretary, telephone operate, and a librarian. Also, women who came from wealth, were able to receive a college education. However, jobs were for single girls or women. Married women never ever worked outside of the home. Not all women were happy in their lives ,but there were some who were content with their lives because it was just an automatic expectation.

Now, pioneer women had much more independence back in the 1880's verses women in the East Coast and the South. Women had to learn how to take things in their own hands very many times because it was the center of survival in so many ways.

by Anonymousreply 123August 26, 2012 8:55 AM

Michael Martins, the Fall River Historical Society curator, was soooooo cute on the "American Justice" program on A&E. You can catch glimpses of him here:

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 124August 26, 2012 9:57 AM

"In fact both the sisters called Bridget Sullivan, the maid, Maggie, because they felt they couldn't be bothered to learn the new name of the 'help.'"

Ugh.

by Anonymousreply 125August 26, 2012 11:00 AM

I doubt the molestation angle, and although people treated Irish domestics like dirt, it didn't sound to me like the sisters were that bad for the times. She (the maid) supposedly said later in life that she liked Lizzie. Maggie was a nickname.

I think the father was a skinflint, but some of the info in the case actually paints Lizzie as having a daddy's girl type relationship with her father, if sometimes strained. The molestation stuff sprang from the imagination of modern writers.

There were a bunch of pressures that could have made Lizzie a powderkeg. She was socially awkward with few friends, possibly lesbian in a time when that alone could drive you crazy, she had a mentally ill biological mother (and her same crazy eyes). She had a suffocating life, a grown woman stuck all day with a stepmother she despised. It must have been a great existence for a woman who should have been married and off in her own life, life consisting of doing chores, going to church to repent her sins, etc...

After killing the stepmother and lying in wait for her father, it must have really hit her that she'd have to kill her him, and what she had done. People use the fact that she annihilated his face with an axe as reason to believe she was molested, but when a murderer attacks a face like that psychologists also say it can indicate shame and subconsciously wanting to "close their eyes" from seeing the killer.

by Anonymousreply 126August 26, 2012 11:30 AM

r124

No he WAS so cute. That is a very old program

by Anonymousreply 127August 26, 2012 11:32 AM

Here's the full Elizabeth Montgomery movie:

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 128August 26, 2012 11:56 AM

The YouTube Link above is copyrighted. I have reported it as a violation to YouTube

Please do not post links to things you do not own.

This is stealing.

by Anonymousreply 129August 26, 2012 2:13 PM

Oh my god 129, I do hope that you are kidding. Calm the fuck down.

by Anonymousreply 130August 26, 2012 2:30 PM

[quote]I happen to know quite a bit about this case, you cunt.

There's nothing quite so thrilling as scholarly debate, is there?

by Anonymousreply 131August 26, 2012 2:44 PM

Fuck you, R129. Get off your high horse. Now that peson will lose their Youtube account.

by Anonymousreply 132August 26, 2012 5:30 PM

R129 is an asshole.

by Anonymousreply 133August 26, 2012 6:36 PM

what do you think is the best biography of the story. Just the facts please: no random alternative theories.

by Anonymousreply 134August 26, 2012 8:37 PM

[quote] She (the maid) supposedly said later in life that she liked Lizzie. Maggie was a nickname.

No, Maggie wasn't a nickname. It was the name of the Borden's previous maid and the family never bothered or cared to learn the new maid's name and always just called her by the name of their former maid.

by Anonymousreply 135August 26, 2012 9:12 PM

What the fuck r129?

by Anonymousreply 136August 26, 2012 9:24 PM

It's fucking stupid to post youtube movie links on DL - you do know who reads this stuff, right?

by Anonymousreply 137August 26, 2012 9:34 PM

Oh yes, there was a lot a rage against her cold, skin-flint father, but Lizzie also adored her father. She just plain hated her stepmother. Remember, it was the stepmother who was murdered first. That was sheer blind hate and rage. But then Andrew came home earlier than expected and lay down on the couch downstairs to take a nap. Lizzie was trapped. She had no way to get out first and establish an alibi without him knowing she had done it. She couldn't bear him knowing what she had done. She had to kill him as he lay napping on the couch. The autopsy revealed that the blows that killed Andrew were weaker than the ones that killed the stepmother.

This is the best book about Lizzie Border: A Private Disgrace: Lizzie Border by Daylight by Victoria Lincoln. You can probably find it at the library. Victoria Lincoln grew up in Fall River, was a child back when Lizzie was still living there. She understands the social structure and people and the small household details of life back then. She goes over the evidence very carefully and thoroughly. After reading it you'll believe Lizzie did it. It's also a very good read. This thread makes me want to re-read the book.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 138August 26, 2012 10:05 PM

That's speculation people have made R135 (that they just just didn't care to learn her name), it never came out why she was called Maggie. The only other record of a previous Borden maid was a "Mary".

There have been other theories.

I've seen sources state her middle name was Margaret and that's what family and friends called her. Some claim it was just the stereotypical Irish maid name, and it was used in that way.

by Anonymousreply 139August 26, 2012 10:11 PM

I think she did it, too.

by Anonymousreply 140August 26, 2012 10:16 PM

No, R137, I don't know who reads the links -- what do you mean?

The only person/entity with a legal right to protest to YouTube is the holder of the copyright. Anyone else is just a tattletale, & I doubt that YouTube pays any attention unless the tattler purports to hold the copyright.

by Anonymousreply 141August 26, 2012 11:16 PM

My spoiled mutton stinks.

by Anonymousreply 142August 27, 2012 12:47 AM

R138, thanks for the link. Sounds interesting.

by Anonymousreply 143August 27, 2012 8:00 AM

R131, at least I don't plaster on the makeup like a trollop, you cunt!

by Anonymousreply 144August 27, 2012 12:01 PM

Man, this Lizzie case has enough psychic residue left upon it to make people crazy NOW.

by Anonymousreply 145August 27, 2012 4:08 PM

can someone please find the scary lizzie borden troll and give her 40 whacks with an axe? she's fucking frightening.

by Anonymousreply 146August 27, 2012 5:03 PM

The maid Bridget had it the worst- she lived in the attic garrett. In the 100 degree heat and humidity that weekend long before the advent of a/c, she must have felt like she was dying. She had an upset stomach and then Abigail Borden had her washing all the outside downstairs windows.

by Anonymousreply 147August 27, 2012 5:54 PM

Lizzie's home Maplecroft today. Rather non-secript but at the time she bought it, was a sign of wealth.

And it is much better than then Borden homestead which I hear is now in a rough area and across from a bus station.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 148August 27, 2012 5:56 PM

R147, not to mention the layer of clothing and long hemlines and corsets women wore in those days.

by Anonymousreply 149August 27, 2012 6:18 PM

[quote]Elizabeth Montgomery wuold've one the Emmy

Oh, dear.

by Anonymousreply 150August 27, 2012 6:34 PM

[quote]BTW, the most they'll find is that she was a dyke.

Yes, she was quite fond of the gash.

by Anonymousreply 151August 27, 2012 6:57 PM

Shut the door and lock and latch it, here comes Lizzie with a brand new hatchet!

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 152August 27, 2012 9:06 PM

Mmmm me loves slop on me pears!

by Anonymousreply 153August 27, 2012 9:15 PM

Lizzie had the crazy eyes. Wouldn't want to meet her on a dark night.

I've wondered why Lizzie chose to stay in Fall River for the rest of her life and didn't move somewhere like Boston or wherever - she certainly had the money to live wherever she wanted. Her reputation in Fall River was destroyed and people shunned her for the rest of her life.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 154August 27, 2012 9:46 PM

I knew Lizzie was innocent, always knew it!

by Anonymousreply 155August 27, 2012 10:00 PM

Fuck you R138. She wasn't guilty and there is no evidence. There would have been blood all over her. Do you have any idea how hard it is to clean blood off yourself, out of her hair...not to mention her clothing. You are simply ignorant.

by Anonymousreply 156August 27, 2012 10:07 PM

R156, you silly boy. Lizzie was the only person with motive, means and opportunity. Of course she did it. You cannot fault anyone for trusting common sense in this case.

by Anonymousreply 157August 28, 2012 5:51 AM

"there is no evidence. There would have been blood all over her"

Didn't she burn the dress she'd been wearing, immediately after the murders?

by Anonymousreply 158August 28, 2012 7:54 AM

Lizzie absolutely did not do it. Her crazy half brother did.

by Anonymousreply 159August 28, 2012 7:56 AM

Someone mentioned a theory that the stepmother found Lizzie and Bridget together, in flagrante delicto. It's intriguing, but when was this supposed to have happened? It couldn't have been the morning of the murders, when everyone had food poisoning and was suffering from the heat...

Oh, never mind. This was pages ago, and I don't even have the R? number. Go ahead and call me a cunt, already.

by Anonymousreply 160August 29, 2012 2:12 AM

What if it was something that stepmom held over Lizzie's head for awhile r160? It could have been a slow boil that lead to the planning and murder.

by Anonymousreply 161August 29, 2012 6:26 AM

Maybe Lizzie flipped out, and got angry at her father when he married the stepmother because Lizzie saw the stepmother as a threat to her inheritance?Children in wealthy families usually have issues with their stepmothers when it comes to money and inheritance.

On the flip side of the coin, I used to work at an antique store, and I would get into many conversations with many customers who consistently said, that when their fathers died, their stepmothers took everything.

by Anonymousreply 162August 29, 2012 7:35 AM

Yes, R162, supposedly Lizzie's father intended to draw up a new will leaving almost everything to the his wife. Lizzie and Emma would have got only $25,000 apiece which was a lot of money in 1892. But it was really only enough for a generous dowry, not enough for a woman of 32 to retire on in anything but penury. Presumably Lizzie's father felt she and her sister would be better off marrying after he died. The inheritance would have made them attractive to many upstanding men within their social sphere.

by Anonymousreply 163August 29, 2012 7:44 AM

I have never seen a picture of Lizzie in her later years - apparently none exist. I would like to know what she looked like then.

by Anonymousreply 164August 29, 2012 7:47 AM

[quote]Lizzie and Emma would have got only $25,000 apiece which was a lot of money in 1892. But it was really only enough for a generous dowry, not enough for a woman of 32 to retire on in anything but penury.

$25,000 in 1892 is like having almost $600,000 now. It'd certainly be enough to live on for the rest of your life if you were careful what you spent it on.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 165August 29, 2012 8:36 AM

"She wasn't guilty and there is no evidence. There would have been blood all over her. Do you have any idea how hard it is to clean blood off yourself, out of her hair...not to mention her clothing. You are simply ignorant."

Oh shut the fuck up, you retard. There's plenty of evidence to support her guilt, shit-fer-brains.

One plausible theory is that she stripped naked, killed Abby and her father, cleaned up and put her dress back on. In the tv movie with Elizabeth Montgomery that's exactly what she did. Perhaps wondering if she had any blood on a dress, she burned it. She BURNED A DRESS.

I suppose you think there's "no evidence" to support O.J. Simpson's guilt, either. Dumbass.

by Anonymousreply 166August 29, 2012 2:17 PM

If you read even the worst book about Lizzie Borden all of them solidly agree on one point. As soon as Lizzie dispatched Bridget to get the doctor across the street, it was was complete mess and total chaos.

Everyone and their brother was going in and out of that house without any regard to anything. They were handing things, throwing things, moving things. It was a classic example of the police losing control over a scene.

If I'm not mistaken, the murders happened on the day of the police picnic, which is why the police that did show up, were unqualified to handle such a crime. They were just fill ins.

Lizzie did not hate her parents. She was plain old stuck up. She called Abby "Mother" up until a few years before the murder. Why did she stop? Because Mr Borden gave Abby's relatives property and BOTH Emma and Lizzie thought that was wrong and demanded property in their names. Emma was ten years older than Lizzie so always called Abby by her first name, having known her real mother, but Lizzie was only around two years old when her real mother died.

Shortly afterwards, Lizzie got to go on a trip to Europe and by all accounts came back insufferable. She went first class all the way and developed an insatiable taste for "the good life." She and Emma even got into quarrels about Lizzie demanding Emma's money too.

What made it worse was the fact Lizzie saw she COULD have the good life, but her father wasn't letting her. It wasn't like she was "OK I'm poor, I'll accept it." She felt like she should be living larger and her father should indulge her.

Much was made of the fact it was determined Abby was killed first. If Mr Borden was killed first the money would've (mostly) went to Mrs Borden and then to her relatives, leaving Lizzie and Emma out.

Though some say the methodology used back then to determine who died first was flawed, it was probably weighted heavily in the girls favor by favoritism of the town. It also gave Emma a reason to back Lizzie up. If she didn't and the money went to Mrs Borden's kin, Emma would be out in the cold, and she was in her 40s by then

by Anonymousreply 167August 29, 2012 2:59 PM

I believe Andrew had been married to Abby for many years, since the girls were young. She was not a new presence in their life.

You never hear anything about what she was like.

by Anonymousreply 168August 29, 2012 3:57 PM

R167, I read through your post. At first I thought it was an excellent analysis. Then I read this:

[quote] If Mr Borden was killed first the money would've (mostly) went to Mrs Borden and then to her relatives, leaving Lizzie and Emma out.

I lose all respect for people who don't know even the basics of grammar. You grew up and now live in a trailer park, I assume.

by Anonymousreply 169August 29, 2012 4:05 PM

Lizzie would look at half the posters in this thread and say "what a bunch of psychopaths".

Someone asked about the stepmother. I believe she was well regarded as a practical, humble woman. However, I think those accounts seem to have come from women in her age group, so she may have been a bitch who complained about "that bitch of a stepdaughter" to the local fraus.

She was supposedly a little more lower class than the Bordens, and obese, so certainly bagging Andrew Borden was step up for her, even if she was basically functioned as another maid and had to deal with the daughters.

by Anonymousreply 170August 29, 2012 10:12 PM

[quote]I lose all respect for people who don't know even the basics of grammar. You grew up and now live in a trailer park, I assume.

He sounds no worse than former president George W. Bush, a man who attended both Yale and Harvard.

by Anonymousreply 171August 29, 2012 10:25 PM

This is so It was all about money not molestation. She hated her stepmother and wanted that money . Therefore the reason she killed her father,who she loved very much was because she couldnt handle the disappointed he would have with her. I have one of the rare extra printings of the trial by robert flynn autographed .. YOU wanna talk the real lizzie ?? let me know :)

by Anonymousreply 172April 7, 2013 1:18 AM
Loading
Need more help? Click Here.

Yes indeed, we too use "cookies." Take a look at our privacy/terms or if you just want to see the damn site without all this bureaucratic nonsense, click ACCEPT. Otherwise, you'll just have to find some other site for your pointless bitchery needs.

×

Become a contributor - post when you want with no ads!