WOW, I didn't know that!?
Larry Kramer "George Washington and Abraham Lincoln were gay"
|by Anonymous||reply 37||10/09/2011|
Then you're a newbie to datalounge.
|by Anonymous||reply 1||10/08/2011|
Kramer's publisher is releasing his book as fiction, because Kramer can't be bothered to verify anything in his "history".
There's nothing wrong with speculation, as long as you don't call it something else. It's hilarious for Kramer to rag on historians like Doris Kerns Goodwin for claiming Lincoln was straight, when he's too lazy to do any of the scholarly work demanded of serious historians.
Apparently he thinks he can insist on being taken seriously based only on his finely tuned gaydar.
If it ever gets published, I'm betting on it being a laugh riot.
|by Anonymous||reply 2||10/08/2011|
John Wilkes Boothe was a thespian
|by Anonymous||reply 3||10/08/2011|
What's the evidence for Washington?
|by Anonymous||reply 4||10/08/2011|
John Wilkes Boothe was a Thespian - a militant one at that
|by Anonymous||reply 5||10/08/2011|
The same "evidence" there is for Lincoln: he had close friendships with other men in his military camps such that other people made teasing references to how close they were.
And he was good-looking and tall, and Martha never had any children with him. (Never mind the fact that Kramer uses this as evidence when he completely discounts the inconvenient fact that Mary Lincoln had four sons with her husband.)
|by Anonymous||reply 6||10/08/2011|
So who do we suppose was the top--Hamilton or Washington?
|by Anonymous||reply 7||10/08/2011|
John Quincey Adams -- gay as brunch.
|by Anonymous||reply 8||10/08/2011|
Jefferson also had a very interesting relationship as a young stud with his political mentor, the bachelor George Wythe.
|by Anonymous||reply 9||10/08/2011|
"The same "evidence" there is for Lincoln: he had close friendships with other men in his military camps such that other people made teasing references to how close they were.
And he was good-looking and tall, and Martha never had any children with him."
That can be explained as: Martha was married to George Washington, NOT Lincoln!
|by Anonymous||reply 10||10/08/2011|
Young George Washington had a very close relationship with Lord Fairfax for many years. Washington married a widow and they had no children. Each had their own bedroom at Mount Vernon. During the War, there was Hamilton, Laurens, and Lafayette. Baron von Steuben kept his eye out for hunks who could serve on Washington's staff.
|by Anonymous||reply 11||10/08/2011|
Why, the entire First and Second Continental Congresses were nothing more or less than gay PNP orgies, with a meth-addled John Hancock brazenly presenting his hole to every taker present from Benjamin Franklin to Button Gwinnet!
|by Anonymous||reply 12||10/08/2011|
Buchanan was the only verifiable gaybe. we have his love letters and he never married
|by Anonymous||reply 13||10/08/2011|
Please, let's not get into a discussion about Button Gwinnett. That would not end well.
|by Anonymous||reply 14||10/08/2011|
Historical speculation is fine, but always requires filtering archaic social conventions through a 21st century sensibility. Many historical figures had emotionally intimate relationships with other men, and in some cases there may even have been some physical intimacy. None of them, however, were "gay" in the modern meaning of the word, the "lifestyle," "orientation," "affectional preference," whatever, as we understand it didn't exist in their societies.
|by Anonymous||reply 15||10/08/2011|
I have two words for Larry Kramer: ..
|by Anonymous||reply 16||10/08/2011|
What about Ben Franklin? Curious, scientific, eclectic scholar, with a sense of humor & great sexual appetites. Well-known pursuer of women, but why stop there?
|by Anonymous||reply 17||10/08/2011|
Larry Kramer: "I am an insane troll who needs to shut the fuck up, since I never provide any documentation for my claims and besides that I'm one of the most unpleasant people on the planet, great social leader that I am."
|by Anonymous||reply 18||10/08/2011|
I think people are split about Lincoln being gay, I had no idea Washington was gay.
|by Anonymous||reply 19||10/08/2011|
There's an episode of Funny or Die (die, please, if that's the choice, since it's rarely funny) with a dream sequence featuring a smitten Honest Abe drooling over a hunky, shirtless Geo Washington who is chopping kindling and pouring a pitcher of water over his torso.
Maybe Kramer just saw the show and got things a little mixed up.
|by Anonymous||reply 20||10/08/2011|
Now i can't stand this Kramer guy. He gets bitter each day. A total bitch.
|by Anonymous||reply 21||10/08/2011|
r21 = Babs
|by Anonymous||reply 22||10/08/2011|
Lincoln is a verified gay, Washington and Buchanan presumptive ones. Neither Doris Kearns Goodwin nor any other "respectable" historian has established Lincoln's heterosexuality. Some, like the prissy little self-loathing queen Carl Sandburg, tried to hide with evidence-free speculations about Ann Rutledge.
|by Anonymous||reply 23||10/08/2011|
James Buchanan was "verified" gay, and I'm the girl who can prove it!
|by Anonymous||reply 24||10/08/2011|
The other thing is that military rivals also get very envious when someone else rises very quickly through the ranks because they've been mentored by someone of the same sex and of great fame or genius. So there are always envious claims these men only rose to prominence because they were willing to let their male mentors fuck him. So this should be taken into consideration in Washington's case.
I'd be more willing to take Kramer's claims seriously if this book ever came out and people could verify the documents he's said he's found that prove Washington and Lincoln were gay; but he's been sitting on the book for 25 years and refuses to finish it. (He had the nerve to bitch about Streisand never getting around to film his awful play, when he himself is a terrible procrastinator who promises much and delivers little.)
|by Anonymous||reply 25||10/08/2011|
[quote]Lincoln is a verified gay,
|by Anonymous||reply 26||10/08/2011|
I think the problem lies with trying to see them as completely one thing (straight) or another (gay). I thing Lincoln was bisexual and engaged in a male/male relationship while living with Joshua Speed and later, again with Charles Derickson.
I don't find that hard to believe in any way.
|by Anonymous||reply 27||10/08/2011|
But there are NO SUCH THINGS as bisexual, r27! All men are gay and gay only!
|by Anonymous||reply 28||10/08/2011|
They were lesbian lovers!
|by Anonymous||reply 29||10/09/2011|
[italic]Lincoln is a verified gay
Neither Doris Kearns Goodwin nor any other "respectable" historian has established Lincoln's heterosexuality.p[/italic]
They don't have to establish anything, when the evidence is right there. Lincoln was not gay. Get over it.
You sound like blacks who swear that Cleopatra was black, and won't hear any evidence to the contrary.
This laughable shit just makes gays look ridiculous.
What was socially acceptable at one time in terms of friendship, is not the same as it is today. You're looking at history through a 21st century prism.
Lincoln was Bipolar. The man had many problems, and was near suicide on more than one occasion. He had a genetic illness. I doubt very much that he was a "people person".
|by Anonymous||reply 30||10/09/2011|
r15, I think we mean "gay" as in "likes to touch other men's cocks."
|by Anonymous||reply 31||10/09/2011|
This Larry Kramer's claims are nothing but a delusion. He acted like he knows everything and getting on people's nerves. Now he's becoming an embarassment to gays instead of hero.
|by Anonymous||reply 32||10/09/2011|
I have no idea if Lincoln or Washington were gay but r30 has a point.
[quote]What was socially acceptable at one time in terms of friendship, is not the same as it is today. You're looking at history through a 21st century prism.
I think the situation then was similar to what goes on in Muslim societies. Sex out of marriage was taboo so I'm sure men/boys played with eachother a lot whether gay or not. That said, obviously gay men (and women) aren't a new invention and there's no reason to assume the % of gays has changed so 1 out of 10-20 people was gay even then, the problem is assuming that about a specific person based on how we think today.
|by Anonymous||reply 33||10/09/2011|
[quote]Lincoln was not gay. Get over it.
Everyone pay attention to the historian at R30. She knows that men in the 19th century ALWAYS slept two in a single bed, even when an empty bed was available nearby.
|by Anonymous||reply 34||10/09/2011|
What about Lincoln's letter to Joshua Speed where he makes reference to "jelly babies" (or something like that)?
|by Anonymous||reply 35||10/09/2011|
Well and everybody knows (knows!) that there was no such thing as men fucking each other before 1969. It just didn't happen. Nosireeebob! "Gay" did not exist and you people are just making it all up!
|by Anonymous||reply 36||10/09/2011|
[quote]Young George Washington had a very close relationship with Lord Fairfax for many years. Washington married a widow and they had no children. Each had their own bedroom at Mount Vernon. During the War, there was Hamilton, Laurens, and Lafayette. Baron von Steuben kept his eye out for hunks who could serve on Washington's staff.
On top of that, Washington's political enemies routinely called him "The Mother of Our Country."
|by Anonymous||reply 37||10/09/2011|