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More masculine gay men than stereotypical?

My dad, a former sociology professor, insists that there are more masculine gay men than there are stereotypical gay men. He says, it's just that the stereotypes are more apparent. I'm not exactly the most masculine of men, so, I feel like he's telling me I'm an anomaly. %0D %0D Is he right? And if so, where does he get this from? How does he know this? I have yet to meet a gay man who doesn't ping, at least, slightly.%0D %0D Anyone here familiar with sociology? Is this what they teach?

by Anonymousreply 26603/06/2015

I think Dad is telling you to butch it up a bit, Mary.

by Anonymousreply 109/07/2011

Sorry, OP, but your dad told you a butt-faced lie.

by Anonymousreply 209/07/2011

you'd be surprised how many butch gays are out there!

by Anonymousreply 309/07/2011

No doubt, R1. I just want to find out if he's pulling this out of his ass or if this is something they taught back in the 1930s.%0D %0D

by Anonymousreply 409/07/2011

Dad is right. Get out of the gay 'community' and see for yourself.

by Anonymousreply 509/07/2011

I'm inclined to agree with your father OP. I believe that there are far more gay men who are "undetectable" to the general public than those who most anyone would assume is gay.

by Anonymousreply 609/07/2011

I suppose there is a continuum from very effeminate to very masculine. Most gay men probably appear more masculine than feminine. Just an opinion- I think it is thoughful one comimg from the OP's Dad.

by Anonymousreply 709/07/2011

More denial from the effetes. You girls are EVERYWHERE.

by Anonymousreply 809/07/2011

Okay, I'm not asking for more ass-pulling. I'm asking if this was something that sociologists came up with back in the day.%0D My dad is 82-years old. He had me when he was 62, so, he's much older than me and I want to know if this is some kind of "old school" bullshit.

by Anonymousreply 909/07/2011

So many causal factors here like patriarchy, machismo and good old American internalized homophobia are at root. Poz roid monsters are another reason. Thanks to modern medicine instead of wasted few old fags, we have an endless ocean of bodybuilders as our mainstream ideal.

by Anonymousreply 1009/07/2011

r6 a lot of the straight public is blind to the sexuality of anyone slightly less camp than Richard Simmons, and would be fooled even by Richard if he paraded around a wife and kids. They don't assume gays are straight because of gay masculinity, they do it because their strong heternormative perspective and the popular myth that a wife and kids means a guy must be straight.

Liberace's fans thought he was straight, and he won a lawsuit against a journalist who implied he was gay. Clay Aiken's fans thought he was straight.

by Anonymousreply 1109/07/2011

One more thing. He brings up the "brown shirts" as an example. Nazis! %0D %0D So, for all of you who think he's sticking up for masculine queers, he's basically saying queers are either fems or homicidal maniacs.

by Anonymousreply 1209/07/2011

I have read that gay men are both - extremely effeminate and extremely butch, much more so that occurs among straights.

by Anonymousreply 1309/07/2011

R11 is right. We forgot that straights that aren't really familiar with gays usually don't consider someone could be gay unless it is flamingly obvious. So from their perspective yes.

To someone with a more attuned gay-dar, in general gay guys have a bit of effeminitity that distinguishes them from straights.

So yes, flamers are definitely the minority. But so masculine that even to another gay guy you aren't noticeably gay? That exists, but definitely is not the majority.

by Anonymousreply 1409/07/2011

How old is your mom, r9?

by Anonymousreply 1509/07/2011

Well, here's the rub. My dad has ZERO gaydar.%0D Unless someone is flaming, he can't see it, yet, he has this theory and it goes something like this.%0D %0D He's against gay marriage because, according to him, these masculine gays, of which there are so many, are not capable of love, only sex. They wouldn't know how to be in a relationship if their life depended upon it. Basically, they're oversexed machines who are so masculine they're only in touch with their physical desires, and aggressive natures.%0D %0D This, from a guy, who has eight kids. Who has had three wives, and god knows how many women on the side.

by Anonymousreply 1609/07/2011

I think masculine gay men are very stereotypical.

So shut up already or say, "hateful cliches of exaggerated effeminateness taken out of context of camp and in-gay situations."

by Anonymousreply 1709/07/2011

R9: this is off partner and I (we're both guys) just had a little girl last summer and he was 59 (I was 49) when she was born. I'm curious: how was it growing up with an older parent?

by Anonymousreply 1809/07/2011

How long ago was he a professor? I attended university in Canada so maybe it's different, but in my sociology classes I know any professor espousing those kinds of ludicrous, unsupported by science and offensive views would have been removed from teaching immediately amid apologies from the university.

by Anonymousreply 1909/07/2011

R9, my mom's 25 years younger than my dad.%0D %0D R17, I'm not all that effeminate. In fact, my dad had no idea I was gay until I told him. So, fuck your "hateful cliches of exaggerated effeminateness taken out of context of camp and in-gay situations"

by Anonymousreply 2009/07/2011

R18, I hope you have already given this some thought.

by Anonymousreply 2109/07/2011

We live in the US, and my dad taught for 50 years. I have no idea if he taught anything about homosexuality...I don't think he did. I know he was at John Jay College of Criminal Justice, years ago, so I think criminal justice was his primary focus.

by Anonymousreply 2209/07/2011

R16, when I came out to my parents, they both said that queers were incapable of love and were addicted to sex. My dad said he knew all about queers because he had talked once to a prison warden who told him about the men having sex in prison. Then they threw me out for good. %0D %0D This is a very old fashioned idea that probably is still spread widely by fundamentalist Christians, but no one else. %0D %0D Op, a serious question for you. Why do you really care what your 82 year old dad says about this topic? He may be a great dad, but at 82 he is speaking about a subject that has changed dramatically in even the last 10 years. %0D %0D Your life will have to be the exception to his out-of-date rule. Part of being an adult is forging your own path. You have to let daddy's opinion go, OK? %0D %0D Note: When I first read your first post and you said your dad "had you" at 62, my dirty mind thought it meant you two had first had sex together when he was 62. This is, afterall, Datalounge! LOL

by Anonymousreply 2309/07/2011

We did, Charlie. We thought about it a long time before we embarked on parenthood at our ages.

by Anonymousreply 2409/07/2011

Your dad would have been teaching Sosh about the time I majored in it. There was very little mention of homosexuality in those days. It was a minor thing - a single small-town homo, a cluster/community of underground types in the big cities along with the rumored sordid places. I would have been very interested in details like the type you mentioned, but there were none available.

by Anonymousreply 2509/07/2011

I think your Dad is right. All the gay guys I know are regular-guy types. Maybe that's because we're out here in the Midwest wilderness.

by Anonymousreply 2609/07/2011

R23, my dad's an agnostic or atheist, but I think he might get his ideas about over-masculinized gay men from studying prison behavior for so long that he assumes gay men are either hardened criminals or so girly they can hardly be called men. I think my coming out to him put a kink in his theory because I'm neither, although, now that I've come out, he seems to have put me in the "girly" category because, unlike my brothers, I wasn't a big jock.%0D %0D Don't get me wrong. I love my dad, and I know he loves me. If anything, he's overly protective of me and does not want me hooking up with one of these, what are in his mind, "monsters". I just hate his stupid theories.

by Anonymousreply 2709/07/2011

R23, I don't think that's so much a Christian idea as it is an "old fashioned" stereotype that was even promoted on TV.

by Anonymousreply 2809/07/2011

But you're right about the fundamentals continuing to promote that idea.

by Anonymousreply 2909/07/2011

Are gay snipers after your children?? LOL!

by Anonymousreply 3009/07/2011

Two dads basing their ideas of gay men on prison sex? Do they also base their ideas of what all women are like by looking at female criminals or what all black people are like looking at black criminals?

And shouldn't it be pretty obvious that a lot of the guys having in sex in prison probably are only having sex with guys because it's what's available? That's same sex sexual activity not gay sexuality.

by Anonymousreply 3109/07/2011

Dear R18: You and your partner or better people than I can ever hope to be. %0D %0D I'm 59 and an afternoon of baby sitting my 3 godchildren (all under the age of 6) leaves me totally wiped out. I can't imagine being a parent 24/7 at my age. God love you both.

by Anonymousreply 3209/07/2011

R31, don't worry, we get it. But some straight men don't. There's still some right wing psychologist (who has been reputiated by the medical profession) who goes around giving lectures to such straight people, claiming that gays seduce children, shove gerbils up their butts, and lead lonely alcoholic miserable lives. Is his name Cameron? I cannot remember, but he tells people what they want to hear and legitimizes it by claiming to be a psychologist. I think he is tied to the anti-gay group that Rick Perry has affiliated himself with.

by Anonymousreply 3309/07/2011

Your Dad is incorrect, this is his way of telling you how he would like you to act around him.

by Anonymousreply 3409/07/2011

Thanks for the kind works, R32. I don't think we any better than any one. We probably should have become parents a while back - but we weren't ready financially. We're pretty set now and we've made sure that our daghter will be safe financially as well.

by Anonymousreply 3509/07/2011

Did Michelangelo sashay?

Did Alexander the Great double snap 'Marys'?

Would Sir Ian McKellan shriek and prance?

The stereotype your father is talking about is the straight's version of gaydar. The only way they can identify gay people is by the stereotypes, so they assume all gay people fit it. As to which group is larger, there's no way of knowing, but it could be entirely possible to have a majority who do not fit the stereotype.

by Anonymousreply 3609/07/2011

since many of the masculine gays go through life not coming out, I'm sure this could be the case.%0D

by Anonymousreply 3709/07/2011

OP, I'm sorry to tell you this, but your dad has dementia. He's 82 years old for fuck's sake. Nothing he says has any truth or value at this point. My parents are in their late seventies and I don't listen to their opinions on anything. They are hopelessly out of date and are now coming to me for advice on just about everything. They are like big, wrinkled children.

You are still quite young, so it would be great if you could find an older man you admire and respect to mentor you---someone who isn't old enough to be your great grandfather.

by Anonymousreply 3809/07/2011

[quote]I have yet to meet a gay man who doesn't ping, at least, slightly.

By "ping," OP evidently means something on the Liberace/Richard Simmons end of the spectrum. His opinion is shared by not a few here who rush to "claim" any public figure who evidences any gesture of mannerism that's the least bit mincing, flaming, nelly, effeminate, weak, milquetoast, fussy, "British," or not expressly "masculine."

Between hyper-"masculine" and hyper-"feminine" stereotypes, there's a world of people who don't especially stand (or scream) out.

by Anonymousreply 3909/07/2011

"They don't assume gays are straight because of gay masculinity, they do it because their strong heternormative perspective and the popular myth that a wife and kids means a guy must be straight."%0D %0D Or because most people are straight, so assuming someone you don't know is straight is reasonable until you learn otherwise or they are obviously gay.

by Anonymousreply 4009/07/2011

OP, your fathers statement is too finite a statement on such a wildly subjective an singularly undefinable trait. All men, gay and straight have their momemts when they'd be just fine in a gingham frock and others when boxing gloves might be the rule. I suspect your father is either personally repressed or making a passive aggressive comment to you.

This is no win situation and you might consider ignoring such silly rants. If you already have a challenging relationship with your father, you might ask him where that reseach was done so you might enjoy reading it. I'm sure he will bluster his way out of that with more baloney.

by Anonymousreply 4109/07/2011

R38 Can diagnose dememtia in a jam-packed football stadium.

by Anonymousreply 4209/07/2011

Just say these 3 words in a sentence and you de-gayed! "Nascar" "Chicks" and "F150"

by Anonymousreply 4309/07/2011

OP I have yet to read a single study that realistically measures masculine and feminine characteristics. How in the world would we even go about defining such characteristics without it being very culture and group specific -- to the point where the study itself would rely on negative stereotypes. In short, we really don't know the answer to your question except for personal anecdotes...much like the forever perpetuated myths that say Black men have longer dicks than all other men. But people buy into this kind of shit!

by Anonymousreply 4409/07/2011

I have yet to fill out a butch-survey, let alone a sissy-questionaire and I have been involved in many homo surveys.

I think your daddy is being a little hostile to you and wishes you were a little more butch.

Either that or he's trying to come out to you.

by Anonymousreply 4509/07/2011

[quote]... I'm not exactly the most masculine of men ...

"Well I'm not the world's most masculine man

But I know what I am and I'm glad I'm a man

And so is Lola!"

by Anonymousreply 4609/07/2011

There was a great episode of "All in the Family" years ago, way before the subject of gays became so openly discussed on tv. It dealt with Mike's friend, Roger, who was effeminate, wore a scarf and didn't like sports. Archie assumed that he was gay and make jokes about him. In the meantime, Mike's friend tells him that Archie's friend, a former macho football player, is the one who is actually gay. I thought it was a great way for Norman Lear to shed some light on this topic way before it was popular to do so. I always remembered this episode and used it to remember that you don't judge a book by its cover.

by Anonymousreply 4709/07/2011

R18, what is it like parenting a little girl?%0D

by Anonymousreply 4809/07/2011

Your dad is trying to come out to you.

by Anonymousreply 4909/07/2011

In the real world, the figure skaters are the gay ones and the truck drivers are the straight ones, 99% of the time......with males at least, with females this is reversed (there has never, ever been a lesbian female figure skater).

by Anonymousreply 5009/08/2011

R48: It%E2%80%99s pretty amazing, actually. We were both pretty nervous when we found out we were having a little girl %E2%80%93 as we had assumed we were having a boy (both of us come from several generations of %E2%80%9Call boys%E2%80%9D) and we don%E2%80%99t know ANYTHING about girls. She%E2%80%99s lovely and we wouldn%E2%80%99t have it any other way. Interestingly, we know a couple of other gay/lesbian couples whose kids are the opposite sex (e.g., a lesbian couple with twin boys and a gay couple with two girls) We%E2%80%99re fortunate to have lots of women friends (str8 and gay, married, single, young, old) so she has lots of good female role models.

by Anonymousreply 5109/08/2011

Where is this quote from? %0D %0D "I am more man than you'll ever be, and more woman than you'll ever have". %0D %0D This was said by a gay man to a homophobe.

by Anonymousreply 5209/08/2011

R52, it came from the movie "Car Wash" but it was "Honey, I am more man then you'll ever be and more women than you'll ever get"

by Anonymousreply 5309/08/2011

Most gay and bisexual dudes are not openly so. In fact, a huge percentage of bi and gay dudes do not even view themselves as such. So, yes, most bisexual and gay men are masculine, but most people don't even know they like dudes.

by Anonymousreply 5408/15/2012


by Anonymousreply 5508/22/2012

[quote](there has never, ever been a lesbian female figure skater

How can you say this with such certainty?

by Anonymousreply 5608/22/2012

You are validating a heterosexuals male opinion on Gays OP? How about asking some folks from India about life as an ice skater too?

by Anonymousreply 5708/22/2012

Fem gays that act like they are the 5th Golden Girl, creep the shit out of me. Man up, gays!!

by Anonymousreply 5808/22/2012

A lot of these non-stereotypical gay men are "non-scene" but in way have created their own alternate gay scene, it's sorta more like lesbian lifestyle but with gay men instead of lesbians - obviously.

by Anonymousreply 5908/22/2012

[quote] Man up, gays!!

This is what Nazis used to say.

by Anonymousreply 6008/22/2012

[quote]Most gay and bisexual dudes are not openly so. In fact, a huge percentage of bi and gay dudes do not even view themselves as such.

Which is why gay marriage gets banned, and four more states will ban gay marriage this November. Which is why Chick Fila's happen. Which is gay rights is nowhere.


by Anonymousreply 6108/22/2012

It doesn't make any sense. Think about it.

by Anonymousreply 6208/22/2012

I'm not sure "pinging" always refers to being less than masculine, OP. Quite the contrary.

Here are some example of men who "ping" without necessarily being feminine, and often just the contrary.

Scruffy guys. Butch bears. Well dressed, slim guys with short cropped haircuts. Any guy who flirts with you. Any guy who reminds you of other gay men you know. Any guy who reminds you any gay celebrity.

The list goes on.

by Anonymousreply 6308/22/2012

This is silly. Maybe a lot of gay men LOOK masculine (e.g., wear a beard, have hairy or muscular bodies). But when it comes to mannerisms and voice, forget about it. I would say that MOST gay men (the ones I personally have met) are somewhat effeminate. Some are more effeminate than others. But I would say it's actually rare to find a "I would never have guessed that he's gay" type of masculine gay man.

by Anonymousreply 6408/22/2012

What I've noticed in this thread is how a lot of straight people can't comprehend same-sex love so therefore they base the fact some people are gay/bi/les/etc. on sex only, especially men. At least that's what I gathered from how the OP described his dad. The majority of straight people, especially those over about 30, really have zero clue about most things gay, so their opinions are worthless on subjects such as these.

Anyway, most gay men are average. So they have some feminine characteristics, some masculine characteristics. Most people fall in the middle to a certain degree, male or female. Some gay men look more masculine but have more feminine characteristics than a guy who may look more average/fem. It really depends on what a person constitutes as being masculine.

I do think, though, that gay men have a different way of expressing their masculinity than straight men, by and large. Gay men have a natural disposition that separates them from straight men regardless of how masculine they appear. Doesn't make gay men any less or more masculine, just gay. Because Gareth Thomas, for example, I knew he was gay the first time I saw him in pictures, and that was like 2006 and I had never heard of him before then.

by Anonymousreply 6508/22/2012

Dunno, and care even less. Why on earth should I? I like both varieties of men equally butch and fem- ditto women.

by Anonymousreply 6608/22/2012

Gay men have loose neck.

by Anonymousreply 6708/22/2012

He's correct from a straight point of view. They tend to see the masculinity in men, even gay ones, with a blurrier lens. If it's not on fire, it's not "gay". Simple as that.

From a gay point of view, no way. We see the name brand underwear, the every two week haircut, the plucked eyebrows, the designer T-shirt that tries too hard to be vintage, the insane attention to diet and exercise, and a ton of other "tells" that the average straight "masculine" guy would never think of doing.

by Anonymousreply 6808/22/2012

In Los Angeles, most gay men are light on the loafers

by Anonymousreply 6908/22/2012

Ricky Martin and Matt Bomer are changing the views of many people on how gay men look - they're both masculine and hot

by Anonymousreply 7008/22/2012

LOL r70

by Anonymousreply 7108/22/2012

I think this article, posted on does a good job at exploring how churches use language to condition to be afraid of gays and lesbians. The author does a decent job of explaining the irrational fear these fundamentalist Christian types promulgate to make impressionable people terrified of gay people.

As for the stereotypes mentioned of hyper masculine butch bear/musclemen (oversexed and incapable of love or a relationship) and nellie femmes (overly emotional and extravagant with tendencies for flamming brighter than a thousand suns going supernova and perceived to be incapable of any masculine qualities) -- these are the only conceivable "types" of gays there are. Because people (especially str8 men) don't like to imagine themselves actually having gay sex. I believe it was Quinten Crisp who has a very succinct quote to this point.

The stereotypes just allow people to quickly categorize people and cast them into these easy categories and therefore be dismissive of those they perceive to be gay.

It's when they discover that someone who doesn't fit those stereotypes and comes across as just like them that it rocks their world and the Quentin Crisp "imagining themselves" aspect comes into play. Because they are processing in their minds, "Oh, that guy is a lot like me. I never figured he was gay. Oh, wow, he's not like so-and-so who is 'obviously' gay." And then they are forced to face their imagination and ponder that person they didn't peg for being gay -- actually engaged in the act and wonder themselves if they could be that way or do that.

It will be interesting to read feedback on the article -- because I think the imprinting of fear that churches employ is another type of stereotyping or shorthand for just dismissing people right off the bat and vilifying us further because it keeps them from actually engaging with or getting to know any gay people.

by Anonymousreply 7208/22/2012

R71 You wish!

by Anonymousreply 7308/22/2012

The whole streotype of gays like carson from queer eye. I've meant some very butch gays. More like a Rock Hudson than Liberace.

by Anonymousreply 7408/22/2012

Oh my god, you must be 900 years old, R74.

by Anonymousreply 7508/22/2012

[quote]But when it comes to mannerisms and voice, forget about it. I would say that MOST gay men are somewhat feminine. Some are more feminine than others. But I would say it's actually rare to find a "I would never have guessed that he's gay" type of masculine gay man.

I would agree, the latter type certainly exists but it is rare. Just as the super flamboyant queens are actually a pretty small minority also. Most gay men fall into the middle somewhere, with some stereotypically gay mannerisms.

However it is becoming harder to tell because more and mroe young straight guys these days also seem a bit gay, which kinda shows how meaningless the whole thing can be.

by Anonymousreply 7608/22/2012

There are some clarifications that need to happen here. For example, are we talking about people who self-identify as gay? We can't forget about gay men who may be married to/dating women.

by Anonymousreply 7708/22/2012

Self-loathing, closeted gay men you mean, R77?

by Anonymousreply 7808/22/2012

I've got news for R78. There are more closeted gays than out far. Self loathing or not.

by Anonymousreply 7908/22/2012

There's only two kind of gay me possible:

(1) masculine

(2) stereotypical

That's IT. No other exceptions! Everything in the entire world is black-and-white, especially gender and sexuality.

by Anonymousreply 8008/22/2012

[quote]Ricky Martin and Matt Bomer are changing the views of many people on how gay men look - they're both masculine and hot

And I am Mary... Queen of Scots.

by Anonymousreply 8108/22/2012

Your father is mistaken. At least 80% of gay men are spot-able by other gay men. And 95% of all gay men will betray some sign if you watch long enough. The remaining 5% are miracles of nature and such a nice surprise.

The pseudoscience of Sociology and its Practitioners alead the world in their lack of understanding of homosexuality.

by Anonymousreply 8208/23/2012

OP, high spottability - assuming you are correct - is not the same thing as comprising a specific stereotype of the effeminate man. Which was OP's father's point.

i can spot, presumably (for the sake of your argument) many men as gay, but that doesn't mean they are less than masculine. Actually, quite to the contrary. When I see a big guy walking down 8th Avenue with tattoos and a goatee, sure, I might assume - rightly or wrongly - that he's gay. But it has absolutely nothing to do with his not being masculine.

Just like with all subcultures, gay men have identifying features. But to argue that all of these identifying features qualify them as feminine guys as opposed to masculine guys, is completely ignoring the facts.

As well as completely misconstruing what OP's father's point was.

by Anonymousreply 8308/23/2012

Most men who are attracted to men are closeted, and very few people in their lives will ever know they are into men. Openly gay men tend to forget how many same-sex oriented guys are totally assimilated and integrated into mainstream culture because they mistakenly think that all gay guys are stereotypical or openly gay. White gay men tend to especially prone to think this because they are less likely to encounter the huge number of urban thuggish bisexual and gay guys who are on the downlow.

by Anonymousreply 8408/23/2012

r84- best thing I read on DL

by Anonymousreply 8508/23/2012

R84 I'm extremely depressed at the thought that, despite looking during every waking moment of every day for that past ~70 years, I have missed this gargantuan underclass of homosexual potential.

by Anonymousreply 8608/23/2012

R86, I fear you have missed them because they allowed themselves to be missed by you.

by Anonymousreply 8708/24/2012

To better understand disease prevention, a survey was made of 4,193 male New Yorkers consisting of 130 questions including sexual identification and sexual behavior. They found that 91.3% identify as straight, 3.7% as gay, and the rest as bisexual (1.2%), unsure (1.7%) or declined to answer (2.1%). These numbers are not significantly different from those the CDC published last year.

However, these identifiers did not align closely with actual sexual activity. For example, 9.3% of respondents indicated that they had sex with only men in the past year. Initially, we might assume that these are the gay, bisexual, unsure, etc. men. Not so.

Of the straight-identified men, 9.4% reported having sexual intercourse with at least 1 man (and no women) in the year before the survey.

[the numbers reflect a slightly different population, the second eliminates bisexuals and those who were not sexually identifiable as straight or gay and those who had sex with both men and women]

That seems like a large percentage of men who are “straight” but only doing it with guys. Our next assumption might be that these are men who don’t have an opportunity to have sex with a woman. Again, not so.

Approximately 70% of straight-identified men who have sex with men reported being married, which was substantially more than any other identity–behavior group: 54% of straight-identified men who have sex with women and only 0.2% of gay-identified men who have sex with men reported being married.

In other words, “straight” men who have sex with men (SMSM) are much more likely to be married than straight men who have sex with women.

by Anonymousreply 8808/24/2012

What percentage of masculine bisexual and gay guys never openly identify as such?

by Anonymousreply 8908/27/2012

r89, well if you use craig's list or manhunt etc you will see the word gay is taboo. They HATE being gay

by Anonymousreply 9008/27/2012

OP is the son of a former sociology professor, but doesn't know "what they teach"? Hmmmmm......

And how can OP say that he has "yet to meet a gay man who doesn't ping, at least, slightly"? This assumes that all men he has met who don't ping are straight. How would he know?

Perhaps there's a reason that the academic careers ended with the previous generation.

by Anonymousreply 9108/27/2012

[quote]Of the straight-identified men, 9.4% reported having sexual intercourse with at least 1 man (and no women) in the year before the survey.

It really is sad that we live in the year 2012 and this is still the case. The amount of closet cases out there is staggering.

by Anonymousreply 9208/27/2012

Masculine men value their masculinity more than just about any other thing, whatever their sexual orientation. They perceive gay identity and association as a threat to their masculinity identity. Therefore, there is no incentive to identify as gay and every incentive not to. Moreover, the word gay is associated culturally with so much that is not viewed as masculine, including musical tastes, lack of athletic interest/ability, girliness, weakness and campiness. As long as masculine dudes can pass as not gay, they will continue. This is the way it has always been in most places. Even in the most enlightened places, masculine males rarely identify as gay. Bisexual identity is less tainted with non-masculine perepttions, but it too has similar barriers to identity.

by Anonymousreply 9308/29/2012

Again, most men who are attracted to men will never identify as gay and publicly identify as straight. If a guy is even a little bit bisexual, he will likely suppress gay identity and interests and publicly validate his heterosexual bona fides.

by Anonymousreply 9411/17/2012

Are you a Gaybro?

by Anonymousreply 9503/21/2013

People on this board only focus on gayness as being openly gay, but in real life, most men who are attracted to men or have sex with men (infrequently or frequently) do not identify as gay, especially publicly. Most of these non-gay identified men are observably just as masculine as their heterosexual brethren and feel at home with mainstream males. Of course, they are hard to study and evaluate, but they are a large group of people.

by Anonymousreply 9603/29/2013

I wish he was right. All I ever see are flaming fairies. Turns my stomach.

by Anonymousreply 9703/29/2013

How do you back that up, R96?

How could you possibly know this?

by Anonymousreply 9803/29/2013

Here's a question:

Are the majority of gays out? How do you guesstimate how many are walking around in the closet?

I've suspected it could be around a majority.

by Anonymousreply 9903/29/2013

Seems to me, if you're masculine, you'd care less about what people think, so there would be fewer, not more.

by Anonymousreply 10003/29/2013

Personally, I'm butch on the streets, femme in the sheets. I present a pretty masculine facade, but when I'm alone with my mans, I like to be treated like a lady. I suspect a lot of guys are like me.

by Anonymousreply 10103/29/2013

Probably 3% of gay males are effeminite like the DL clique. The other 97% are natural males without gender disorders or other issues. They're attracted to guys. They have no interest in being girls with dicks.

But go ahead, continue pretending. That seems to be all DL is about these days.

by Anonymousreply 10203/29/2013

You're the one fantasizing, R102.

by Anonymousreply 10303/29/2013

You're what's known as a lying sack of shit r103.

by Anonymousreply 10403/29/2013

It's true for men and women. Homosexual males and females who don't follow the gender-bender tendencies go undetected and create their own circles, either for convenience (if they're still comfortably in the closet to most people) or because they're pushed away by the most visible and detectable gay and lesbians as "conformists", which as a traditional feminine lesbian myself, I got the chance to verify personally.

by Anonymousreply 10503/29/2013

Nothing upsets the gender benders more than being confronted with the fact that they're a tiny insignificant fraction of same-sex attracted males.

Hiss my pretties! Hiss!

by Anonymousreply 10603/29/2013

Hmmm I dont know, but he may be on to something. Certainly the idea that the flamboyant and feminine men are the ones who will get the most notice is nothing new. Until recently, if one asked me, I would guess the mix is about 50/50. But last year a bunch of friends and I went to Key West for a weekend of drinking and debauchery. For the most part, we are just typical guys. Not overly macho, not overly fem. Just typical men. Except for one in our party, Michael. He is pretty flamboyant the most fem of the bunch. At one bar, my one friend confided in me that he admires Michael because, "it cant be easy for him." He went on about how because of his mannerisms, he probably gets a lot of static from people and has probably had more than his share of homophobia aimed at him. The admiration came from the fact that despite this, he refuses to change and be what others expect him to be. I agreed and said that at least times are changing and straight people are less prejudiced as they were in the past. "But its not straight people" my friend added. "Gay men too can be pretty hostile to someone like him." He then told me to look around the bar, look at the other men here. "This place looks like a lumber camp", and he was right. Nearly all the men there were the facial hair, shaved head, beefy and inked sort. I'm sure there were a few who once they opened their mouth the illusion was shattered, but for the most part, if anyone saw any of these men just walking down the street, it would not be easy to guess they were gay by the way they were dressed and carried themselves or acted. Sure, for some of us, (such as R83) a few bells may ring. But for most of the population, they would be clueless. Since that time I have taken notice whenever I am at gay bar or club or event. The majority of the men I see and meet are not what would be called "stereotypically gay". The number of men I have encountered who would be considered feminine is pretty low.

by Anonymousreply 10703/29/2013

You mad, R104?

by Anonymousreply 10803/29/2013

r106, I think that it is the result of the fact that birds of a feather flock together. Non-gender conforming gay guys hide together, often in dense Northeast/Pacific cities, partly out of necessity, partly out of choice. Like just about any group, they feel more comfortable around guys like themselves with similar interests. Therefore, they are less likely to hang with masculine bi and gay guys because there is a cultural disconnect. Likewise, masculine and bi guys tend to be more closeted and less likely to live apart from mainstream society, so they often don't understand non-masculine guys or have close ties to them.

by Anonymousreply 10903/29/2013

I agree with all that r109, except that I don't think the word "masculine" is the most accurate term. What you're really talking about is being natural and unaffected.

The speech of the "gender benders" is a sociolect. Their physical gestures are likewise aped and mimicked.

by Anonymousreply 11003/29/2013

Most MSM are closeted and fit within gender norms.

by Anonymousreply 11104/12/2013

Ravens linebacker Brendon Ayanbadejo spoke today about Jason Collins’ coming out. Ayanbadejo’s comments get to the heart of the problem with how homosexuality is viewed. While there are men like, say, Erwin “EJ” Johnson III who tends to be rather effeminate, gay men like Collins tend not to be.

Ayanbadejo appeared on Meet The Press, and one of the things he wanted to discuss was not only the need to reform the hyper-masculine nature of sports, but also the view that gay men are all effeminate.

Ayabadejo said: Brendon Ayanbadejo ‘Gayness Not About Femininity’

People think gayness has something to do with femininity when really we just need to erase that stereotypes from our minds. LGBT people come in all different types and shapes and forms. So I think that’s really what we’re fighting. But the beautiful thing about what Britney Griner did, it barely made a splash. That’s what we’re trying to do in men’s sports when people announce they’re gay. We don’t want it to change the climate in sports. We want everybody to be accepted and people can go out there and love who they want to love and be who they are so they cannot only be better people but they can also be better athletes.He also wanted other gay athletes to come out as well, and encouragingly said “When an athlete does come out they’ll have a supportive group around them.”

It has always been a common misconception that homosexual men are effeminate. Unfortunately, this has tended to make gay men coming out in sports difficult due to the tendency to perceive gay men as being weaker than straight men.

by Anonymousreply 11205/06/2013

[R50] Umm still here lacing up...

by Anonymousreply 11305/06/2013

Some of the most masculine, butch guys around are nothing but nelly queens trying to hide their femininity to fit in socially. Our community in and of itself is very hypocritical and judgemental about what constitites masculinity...hence the massive steroid use and the much sought after uber-masculine persona desired by the majority of gay men. They scream acceptance, but are the first to change themseves to conform to whats "acceptible and desireable".

by Anonymousreply 11405/06/2013

[R114] The most truthful response in this thread. Or perhaps I should say most HONEST response.

You win post of the day, but before you get your ribbon, you must remove the e from judgmental. No offense intended, but a professor once wisely told me that he could spot the rubes in a second by their spelling of the word. And you can bet I WAS one of the rubes!

by Anonymousreply 11505/06/2013 honest mistake...I also left the "l" out of mind works faster than my fingers !

by Anonymousreply 11605/06/2013

"They scream acceptance, but are the first to change themseves to conform to whats "acceptible and desireable".

Because they're young, stupid, immature and have the emotional development of middle school teen aged girls.

Grow the fuck up and be whatever you want to be and fuck what anybody else thinks. Or are you not man enough to do that?

by Anonymousreply 11705/06/2013

What's wrong with that R58?

by Anonymousreply 11805/06/2013

Your dad is spot on. The camp queens are just the gay men that are noticable and those stereotype are being enforced in movies and on tv as well. The camp sassy gay is more acceptable to the average straight audience because he's kind of amusing, non-threatening and asexual while a butch gay man would make straight guys more uncomfortable. Threatens the stereotypes they believe in, robs them of the illusions that they would be able to recognize gays while in reality any guy can be gay, might look too attractive and sexual...

by Anonymousreply 11905/06/2013

[quote] Fem gays that act like they are the 5th Golden Girl, creep the shit out of me. Man up, gays!!

Fascist assholes that insist everyone walk, talk and act like them to validate everything they think, say and do creep the shit out of me!

Spoiler alert: The world does not exist to validate everything you think or do! People are ***GASP*** not all exactly like you!

by Anonymousreply 12005/06/2013

I agree r117....however, theyre not all young. I myself am not "butch", but Im not a girl either...Im just a normal person. All of my life has been difficult because I was too "femme' to be str8, but too str8 to be gay (in a personality sense). Gay men are just as, if not more, judgmental of their peers than str8s.

by Anonymousreply 12105/06/2013

R121, I'm 61 and have been out since I was 19 so I've been around the gay block a couple of times.

A lot of the assholes proclaming their "masculinity" are anything but and lack the critical thinking skills necessary to do any careful analysis of the way they present themselves to the world.

It's kind of like the internet, where everybody claims to have a nine or 10 inch dick, but the sad reality is few do.

by Anonymousreply 12205/06/2013

The only place you'll find e-feminates are in the e-feminate cliques. 95% of same-sex attracted males have nothing to do with them.

by Anonymousreply 12305/06/2013

A good example of the asshole I refer to in my post at R122 can be found at R123.

Yeah, your shit don't smell, R122.

by Anonymousreply 12405/06/2013

Here is the thing I dont understand. If we accept that there are some gay men who are naturally feminine acting, why is it so hard for some to accept that there could be gay men who are naturally masculine?

by Anonymousreply 12505/06/2013

r124, stop lying. r123 said nothing about himself. Like always, the effeminacy propagandizers are left with nothing but projection. But then that's what you have to do when reality doesn't support your fantasy.

by Anonymousreply 12605/06/2013

r125...Its not hard at all to accept a "naturally" masculine gay...the problem is that most are NOT naturally masculine...its an act to make themselves more socially acceptable. I know multiple "men" that you would never in a million years guess are gay...but get them behind closed doors when nobody can judge them, and you might as well put a pink tutu on them and blast house music from the stereo as they prance around. Thats not "naturally" masculine. I also know many "closeted" macho men that are only closeted because they dont want to be percieved as femminine...regardless of how "butch" they are. Society in general percieves gay men as feminine. Alot of men would rather live a lie than be thought of as a feminine. Its the same with gay men. Its ok to be gay, but you better not appear feminine in public.

by Anonymousreply 12705/06/2013

[quote]I know multiple "men" that you would never in a million years guess are gay...but get them behind closed doors when nobody can judge them, and you might as well put a pink tutu on

Maybe that's why I am confused. I have never encountered a man like that.

by Anonymousreply 12805/06/2013

[quote].Its not hard at all to accept a "naturally" masculine gay...the problem is that most are NOT naturally masculine

And this is what's known as lying. Sometimes I think datalounge exists solely to spew this propaganda.

r123 is correct. I'd say the percentage is somewhere in the 90s and that fact really pisses off the ones here with an agenda to proclaim otherwise.

by Anonymousreply 12905/06/2013

r129...LOL I bet youre one of of those "naturally" masculine guys who claim to be metrosexual. A "naturally" masculine guy doesnt have a bathroom full of beauty products and a closet full of designer clothes. A "naturally" masculine guy is a MAN who doesnt give a damn what other people think about who he chooses to have sex with. The majority of "masculine" gay men spend endless hours in the gym, spend endless dollars to be seen in the right clothes and at the right places to attract other "masculine" men. Theres nothing "natural" about that.

by Anonymousreply 13005/06/2013

r130, the people you're describing are the datalounge set. You're right that they're not natural at all. But they are the 5% or less. They're the ones who go around making idiotic statements like the first sentence in r127, pushing the idea that gay males are just women with dicks.

r129 was right.

by Anonymousreply 13105/06/2013

An older gay man once told me that the idea that 2% of the population being gay is not true. In fact, he said, there are many,many more gay men that are married and not obviously gay. He said there are far, far more men who are gay/bi than what is reported.This is because you'd never know they are gay by their voice, interests, job, etc. He said there are more gay and bi men that are married than out.

It seems to me some men get married because it is the manly thing to do!They may be bi, or just plain old closeted.

I would say that sexuality is on a continuum from 100% gay to 100% straight.

by Anonymousreply 13205/06/2013

I think R129 is on to something. I'm trying real hard to think of any gay man I know that fits into what so many here are saying about most or the majority of guys who are not feminine. Maybe its just a case of "we attract what we are" but I know no gay man who has a bathroom full of beauty products or who obsesses over what they wear. Pretty much all of them are like me, the shampoo is whatever was on sale, the clothes are whatever they first pulled out of their closet (or in my case, pulled out of the clothes dryer) I'm not saying the sort of men R130 described dont exist, but in my experience, I have never met them.

by Anonymousreply 13305/06/2013

[all posts by tedious troll removed.]

by Anonymousreply 13405/06/2013

My experience is just like r133. Guys who like guys and are just natural. They don't use terms like "butch" or even "masculine." They don't have prissy or macho affectations.

People who do have those affectations are generally in small urban cliques/scenes where they reinforce each other with that behavior, attitude and jargon. Sometimes it seems like DL is the world headquarters for those cliques. But out in the real world, gay guys are not like that.

by Anonymousreply 13505/06/2013

How about those countless "masculine" down-low straight guys that hook up off of Craigslist, bathhouses, cruising areas? Usually married or partnered with a woman, and by all appearances straight to the normal world, but constantly having gay sex? Sadly, I think this type of man outnumbers "out" gay men. But they are gay themselves and in denial, no?

Therefore, I think most gay men (or men who have sex with men) are masculine but just fly under the radar. The ratio of out gay men to closet-case cocksuckers is like 1:5.

by Anonymousreply 13605/06/2013

R135 I never really thought about it before, but the more I do and the more I read things like what you wrote, I'm beginning to think that is the case. The gay guys I know are just that, guys. None of them are macho lug heads, but they also are not flamers. We really dont go to gay clubs that much but its thats because we dont like club music, not because we dont like being around other gay people.

by Anonymousreply 13705/06/2013

I'd say at least 90% of homosexual males are not out. I don't agree with r136, that a lot are married. They're just single guys that everyone wrongly assumes are straight.

by Anonymousreply 13805/06/2013

[all posts by tedious troll removed.]

by Anonymousreply 13905/06/2013

Well the "identify as" thing is kinda silly. Sexual orientation is about what you're attracted to, nothing more, nothing less.

by Anonymousreply 14005/06/2013

r138, if they are married to women, they are more likely bi than gay.

by Anonymousreply 14105/06/2013

R139, from my many countless sexperiences with such DL men, I doubt that the majority even properly enjoy pussy. Sure, there were some true-blue bisexuals in there, but I got the sense that most were partnered up with women for appearances and straight privilege. Whatever reason it was, being married to her certainly didn't stop them from hooking up with men over and over and over again..

by Anonymousreply 14205/06/2013

Do you think the percentage is that high r138? I would say slightly above 50%, and some might say that is too high.

by Anonymousreply 14305/06/2013

I don't know about that r141. Many guys get married because of expectations, not desire. You can argue that this is unwise, but it does happen (though much less often than it used to).

by Anonymousreply 14405/06/2013

r143, you are delusional. Out gays probably comprise less than 5% of all homos. Almost every gay guy I know is not out.

by Anonymousreply 14505/06/2013

[quote]Almost every gay guy I know is not out.

Wow. That's incredible. Every gay guy I know is out.

by Anonymousreply 14605/06/2013

r146, you must hang around a lot of femmy types. Are you sure they are actual homosexuals, or do they just have gender issues and find it convenient to call themselves gay because it gives them something they think is supportive to identify with?

by Anonymousreply 14705/06/2013

R147 LOL hardly. In fact you couldn't be more wrong. I think its probably more a case of how I dont hang around with phoneys and liars.

by Anonymousreply 14805/06/2013

For every gay man that's out and open in NYC/LA, there are tons more gay-porn-watching, hooking-up-with-men-online "straight dudes" in flyover land.

by Anonymousreply 14905/06/2013

r148, the "phoneys" are the people described in r147.

by Anonymousreply 15005/06/2013

Your dad would have been teaching Sosh about the time I majored in it. There was very little mention of homosexuality in those days. It was a minor thing - a single small-town homo, a cluster/community of underground types in the big cities along with the rumored sordid places. I would have been very interested in details like the type you mentioned, but there were none available.

Incidentally, he's incorrect.

by Anonymousreply 15105/06/2013

r149, using the term "flyover land" screams loudly that you're in some tiny urban clique where gender confusion is the issue that brings you together. But I get what you mean - which is that in the real world guys who like guys are everywhere, and they're natural unaffected guys.

by Anonymousreply 15205/06/2013

[all posts by tedious troll removed.]

by Anonymousreply 15305/06/2013

R152 A person does not need to live in an urban area to use the phrase "fly over land". Even people who live in Oklahoma use the term to describe themselves. You would be very well served to not assume and make generalizations without first having facts to back up what you claim.

by Anonymousreply 15405/06/2013

stark raving mad

by Anonymousreply 15505/06/2013

R152 and his biddies sure are pushing that "urban clique" meme real hard.

Almost like rabid Chrisitians speaking about the "gay agenda."

Paranoid much?

by Anonymousreply 15605/06/2013

A lot Northeast/Pacific urban guys are isolated from the rest of mainstream society and tend to think their way of life and environment is typical. Even in NYC, a lot of openly gay men are oblivious to the huge Down Low scene in Queens, the Bronx, Washington Heights, Harlem. Openly gay men tend to be unaware of the huge underground of men who are into men but don't identify as gay. The DL bros have their own networks that are usually hidden from most openly gay men.

by Anonymousreply 15705/06/2013


by Anonymousreply 15805/07/2013


by Anonymousreply 15905/14/2013

Your dad was telling you what you want to hear and believe.

by Anonymousreply 16005/14/2013

Are lesbians more accepted than gay men?

Saturday, May 18, 2013 9:51 PM EDT

By MARTHA IRVINE Of The Associated Press

CHICAGO (AP) — It may be a man’s world, as the saying goes, but lesbians seem to have an easier time living in it than gay men do.

High-profile lesbian athletes have come out while still playing their sports, but not a single gay male athlete in major U.S. professional sports had done the same until NBA basketball player Jason Collins announced he was gay in a April 29 essay in Sports Illustrated. While television’s most prominent same-sex parents are the two fictional dads on “Modern Family,” surveys show that society is actually more comfortable with the idea of lesbians parenting children.

Scouting debate

And then there is the ongoing debate over the Boy Scouts of America proposal to ease their ban on gay leaders and scouts.

Reaction to the proposal, which the BSA’s National Council will take up next month, has been swift, and often harsh. Yet amid the discussions, the Girl Scouts of USA reiterated their policy prohibiting discrimination based on sexual orientation, among other things. That announcement has gone largely unnoticed.

Certainly, the difference in the public’s reaction to the scouting organizations can be attributed, in part, to their varied histories, including the Boy Scouts’ longstanding religious ties and a base that has become less urban over the years, compared with the Girl Scouts’.

Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell

But there’s also an undercurrent here, one that’s often present in debates related to homosexuality, whether over the military’s now-defunct “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” policy or even same-sex marriage. Even as society has become more accepting of homosexuality overall, longstanding research has shown more societal tolerance for lesbians than gay men, and that gay men are significantly more likely to be targets of violence.

That research also has found that it’s often straight men who have the most difficult time with homosexuality — and particularly gay men — says researcher Gregory Herek.

“Men are raised to think they have to prove their masculinity, and one big part about being masculine is being heterosexual. So we see that harassment, jokes, negative statements and violence are often ways that even younger men try to prove their heterosexuality,” says Herek, a psychologist at the University of California, Davis, who has, for years, studied this phenomenon and how it plays out in the gay community.

That is not, of course, to downplay the harassment lesbians face. It can be just as ugly.

But it’s not as frequent, Herek and others have found, especially in adulthood. It’s also not uncommon for lesbians to encounter straight men who have a fascination with them.

“The men hit on me. The women hit on me. But I never feel like I’m in any immediate danger,” says Sarah Toce, the 29-year-old editor of The Seattle Lesbian, a daily online news magazine. “If I were a gay man, I might — and if it’s like this in Seattle, can you imagine what it is like in less-accepting parts of middle America?”

One of Herek’s studies found that, overall, 38 percent of gay men said that, in adulthood, they’d been victims of vandalism, theft or violence — hit, beaten or sexually assaulted — because they were perceived as gay. About 13 percent of lesbians said the same.

A separate study of young people in England also found that, in their teens, gay boys and lesbians were almost twice as likely to be bullied as their straight peers. By young adulthood, it was about the same for lesbians and straight girls. But in this study, published recently in the journal Pediatrics, gay young men were almost four times more likely than their straight peers to be bullied.

Code of behavior

At least one historian says it wasn’t always that way for either men or women, whose “expressions of love” with friends of the same gender were seen as a norm — even idealized — in the 19th century.

“These relationships offered ample opportunity for those who would have wanted to act on it physically, even if most did not,” says Thomas Foster, associate professor and head of the history department at DePaul University in Chicago.

Today’s “code of male gendered behavior,” he says, often rejects these kinds of expressions between men.

We joke about the “bro-mance” — a term used to describe close friendships between straight men. But in some sense, the humor stems from the insinuation that those relationships could be romantic, though everyone assumes they aren’t.

Call those friends “gay,” a word that’s still commonly used as an insult, and that’s quite another thing. Consider the furor over Rutgers University men’s basketball coach Mike Rice, who was recently fired for mistreating his players and mocking them with gay slurs.

If two women dance together at a club or walk arm-in-arm down the street, people are usually less likely to question it — though some wonder if that has more to do with a lack of awareness than acceptance.

“Lesbians are so invisible in our society. And so I think the hatred is more invisible,” says Laura Grimes, a licensed clinical social worker in Chicago whose counseling practice caters to gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender clients.

Grimes says she also frequently hears from lesbians who are harassed for “looking like dykes,” meaning that people are less accepting if they look more masculine.

Still, Ian O’Brien, a gay man in Washington, D.C., sees more room for women “to transcend what femininity looks like, or at least negotiate that space a little bit more.”

O’Brien, who’s 23, recently wrote an opinion piece tied to the Boy Scout debate and his own experience in the Scouts when he was growing up in the San Diego area.

“To put it simply: Being a boy is supposed to look one way, and you get punished when it doesn’t,” O’Brien wrote in the piece, which appeared in The Advocate, a national magazine for the gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender communities.

Joey Carrillo, a gay student at Elmhurst College in suburban Chicago, remembers trying to be as masculine as possible in high school. He hid the fact that he was gay, particularly around other athletes. As a wrestler, he says he never wanted to hear someone say, “Oh, THAT’S why he wrestles.”

In fact, though more gay and lesbian athletes are coming out in college, gay male professional athletes in major sports have waited to do so until they have left their sport, one of the more recent being Robbie Rogers, an American soccer player who played professionally in England. There have been reports that gay male athletes who are currently playing may be on the verge of going public.

But women have already done so with little backlash.

U.S. soccer star Megan Rapinoe, for instance, came out right before she played in last year’s Olympics. WNBA star Seimone Augustus and the league’s No. 1 draft pick, Brittney Griner, are some of the more recent female athletes to follow suit.

Hollywood effect

In Hollywood in recent years, both openly gay men and lesbians have had successful careers. And when it comes to television and movies, it appears there are more high-profile gay male characters.

Still, while many see the two dads on the “Modern Family” sitcom as groundbreaking, others have a sense that the societal discomfort with gay men as parents is at the root of many of the jokes.

“A good portion of that is for comedic effect,” says Don Todd, a 32-year-old father in a two-dad family in Orange, Calif. He doesn’t think most people would think it was as funny if the characters were two moms.

Herek, the researcher at UC-Davis, has, in fact, found in surveys that heterosexuals think lesbians would be better parents than gay men.

Nancy Dreyer, a mother in a two-mom family, has noticed this in her own life.

“With gay male friends of ours who have kids, people will say, ‘My gosh, who takes care of this baby?’ — as if they’re not capable,” says Dreyer, whose 57 and lives in suburban Boston.

The assumption, she says, is that men aren’t nurturing. And if they’re too nurturing, she says, people get suspicious, noting that no one has ever questioned her and her partner about their ability to raise their son, who’s now in college.

She’s noticed the different ways society treats gay men and lesbians, partly because she has a brother, Benjamin Dreyer, who’s gay. The Dreyer siblings say it’s difficult to compare their experiences because Benjamin came out in college, and Nancy in her early 30s.

So he was the first to tell their parents. “They yelled at me. They took you to dinner,” Benjamin Dreyer, who’s 54 and works in publishing in New York City, now jokes with his sister.

Truth was, as a young gay man coming of age as the AIDS epidemic took hold, his parents simply worried, and with good reason, his sister says.

There’s little doubt, they both say, that AIDS influenced the perception of gay men.

Benjamin Dreyer says he dealt with societal bias by avoiding it, and surrounding himself with people he knew would be supportive, including his parents, eventually.

But he’s also realizing how quickly the need to do that is disappearing. He was surprised and pleased, for instance, when he attended his nephew’s high school graduation last year. There, he saw a gay male graduate with his boyfriend, open and accepted by all his peers.

“It’s mind-boggling,” Benjamin Dreyer says. “It’s wonderful.”

Carrillo, too, decided to live openly when he arrived at Elmhurst College. He joined a fraternity and even painted a rainbow — a common symbol of the gay community — on his fraternity paddle. To his surprise, there was some backlash from a couple of his straight fraternity brothers who feared people would think their fraternity was the “gay fraternity.”

“There’s a long way to go,” says Carrillo, who graduates next month. But he still feels hopeful.

“Honestly, I see it — everywhere there’s progress.”

by Anonymousreply 16105/18/2013

Most masculine gay and bi men will never come out as such.

by Anonymousreply 16206/12/2013

I wish more masculine gay dudes came out to eradicate the negative stereotype that being gay is associated with femininity.

by Anonymousreply 16307/01/2013

I really don't understand why people are so afraid to be defined feminine or whatever. You're gay, that's what counts, you like other men in your own particular way and there are different ways of being gay.

by Anonymousreply 16407/01/2013


by Anonymousreply 16507/02/2013


by Anonymousreply 16607/27/2013

Almost all truly masculine bi and straight dudes are closeted or identify as non-straight. They tend to be the ones who really reject gay identity,

by Anonymousreply 16708/07/2013

The overwhelming majority of masculine gay and bi dudes never will identify as gay. They view their masculinity as evidence that they are not "gay," although they may engage in same sex activity. They are also much less likely to be in a relationship with a male, so they tend to think of their same sex activity as fleeting, trivial, and not central to their identity. They tend to have an attitude that their interest in other dudes should not mean anything significant or different from the mainstream.

by Anonymousreply 16808/29/2013

[quote]The overwhelming majority of masculine gay and bi dudes

All three of them?

by Anonymousreply 16908/30/2013

The compulsive use of the word "dude" in this thread is funny but sad. It's obvious that too many gay men just have no idea at all what it means to be a man, so they just try to use the right words, adopt the right voice and facial expressions, etc., and conversely put constant pressure on each other to embrace femininity. But you can't force people to find something attractive if they don't. That isn't self-loathing; it's human nature.

by Anonymousreply 17009/21/2013

R170, I grew up around only males and "dude" or "bro" were hardly ever used. There is a hyper-masculine façade I notice. It's not natural. I just see it as a desperation to fit in.

by Anonymousreply 17109/21/2013

Most, if not all, gay men are this:

by Anonymousreply 17209/21/2013

more closeted masculine gay men than stereotypical

by Anonymousreply 17309/27/2013

Most masculine will never publicly identify as gay. The feminine ones tend to have no choice.

by Anonymousreply 17410/06/2013

Most masculine gay/bi dudes are in the closet. They blend in with mainstream dudes. The fem ones and guys into stereotypical things (music, fashion, Bravo, not watching ESPN) have no choice but to be out because people assume they are gay.

by Anonymousreply 17510/13/2013

I have always preferred slightly-swishy men. Overly butch men do absolutely NOTHING for me.

by Anonymousreply 17610/14/2013

[quote]The overwhelming majority of masculine gay and bi dudes never will identify as gay. They view their masculinity as evidence that they are not "gay,"

Untrue. What you're saying is "if you can pass as straight, you'll stay in the closet." Reminds me of the gay ads after AIDS hit: "Straight Acting/Looking searching for same." Bull.

I came out when I was a teen. Sometimes I tell people because I'm afraid they'll assume I'm straight. It happens. I know a lot of masculine gay men who came out.

by Anonymousreply 17710/14/2013


by Anonymousreply 17810/18/2013


by Anonymousreply 17911/20/2013


by Anonymousreply 18011/26/2013


by Anonymousreply 18112/18/2013

r130 You can be masculine and still care about grooming yourself. Yikes. You are describing a Neanderthal-- not a masculine man.

by Anonymousreply 18212/18/2013

R182 There is a difference between grooming yourself and what R130 described.

by Anonymousreply 18312/18/2013

Gay men run the gamut in stereotypes from Liberace (effete) to Michael Michaud, the Congressman from Maine that Barney Frank didn't realize was gay.

Where is the tipping point between stereotypical and masculine. Roosevelt Grier, the NFL football star, goes needlepoint and no one thinks he is gay

Can't we enjoy each other's company and find what each of us wants in a relationship.

To the OP, I hope that you love your father and that he loves you. I sure miss my Dad, who loved me very much

by Anonymousreply 18412/18/2013

If a masc gay or bi man can "pass for straight" he's going to. It's so easy to cheat on the side- why would he forfeit all the benefits awarded to a Normal Married Heterosexual Husband and Father?

by Anonymousreply 18512/18/2013

A lot of stupidity on this thread. Are some of you so without any personal integrity that you really believe most other people are as cowardly and dishonest as you come off?

by Anonymousreply 18612/18/2013

[quote]a Normal Married Heterosexual Husband and Father


by Anonymousreply 18712/18/2013

Years ago when I broke up with my partner, I decided I wanted to just have some no-strings-attached-but-safe fun for a while. I really didn't care if people were married or partnered and didn't ask. I couldn't believe the number of married guys I'd never guess in a million years were gay. I hooked up with many very masculine men.

I personally think gay men run the gamut from very effeminate to very masculine. I think most are somewhere in the middle. If everyone came out, I think you'd see a lot more out masculine men. The truth is, many of them who can pass for straight do so and live the lie because it's easier.

by Anonymousreply 18812/18/2013

Most gay men I know are not stereotypical at all and would never been recognized as gay if they didn't tell you or saw them with their partner. The only stereotypical gay men I have met were either working at musical productions or spend a lot of time in the gay scene.

Yes, there are both gay and straight men who are stereotypical, as in a bit feminine. They are born like that. But the flaming queens, extremely stereotypocal "gay" mannerisms are trained behavior, just like having a certain accent, behaving and talking like your friends, your gang etc.

So yeah, I agree with your father, definitely way more non-stereotypical gay men out there. You simply don't know they are there because you can't recognise them as gay. The stereotypical gay men are the ones that stand out.

by Anonymousreply 18912/18/2013

[quote]The stereotypical gay men are the ones that stand out.

Good for them. As they should.

by Anonymousreply 19012/18/2013

R190 What exactely do you mean? As they should because they are difficult to not notice or as they should because they have to put up with more crap? In my opinion, as long as you are not naturally feminine, the super camp trained behavior is ones personal choice and can be un-trained again. So if a gay men who behaves like that doesn't like the negative attention he gets, just don't act like that. Simple. It's like women acting super prissy and bitchy because they picked up this behavior from their circle of friends. Many people will react negatively so their choice if they don't like the reactions.

by Anonymousreply 19112/18/2013

[all posts by pathetic racist, sexist, anti-semitic, homophobic flame bait troll removed (but you might want to not encourage it in the future because it will be back because you keep giving it what it wants and it really does not believe any of the things it types), ISP notified with full text of all posts.]

by Anonymousreply 19212/18/2013

Is R191 or R192 Steve Fleshing, GOProud?

by Anonymousreply 19312/18/2013

[all posts by pathetic racist, sexist, anti-semitic, homophobic flame bait troll removed (but you might want to not encourage it in the future because it will be back because you keep giving it what it wants and it really does not believe any of the things it types), ISP notified with full text of all posts.]

by Anonymousreply 19412/18/2013

R192 and I are not even the same person. And do you dispute that overly camp stereotypical behavior is learned behavior? Lets face it, certain behavior is unpopular with most people. If for example don't like affected, prissy behavior that looks like people are putting on a show all the time and I don't like it whether women, straight or gay men do it. Most people don't because they feel like they are watching an actor instead of an honest person.

by Anonymousreply 19512/18/2013

Are most guys at this site MARY!s?

by Anonymousreply 19612/18/2013


by Anonymousreply 19712/18/2013

R192, you make me hate you.

by Anonymousreply 19812/18/2013

[quote] certain behavior is unpopular with most people.

Yeah. Most douches.

People who reject someone for not adhering to a strict rigid gender role are, in the long term, actually doing a favor by withdrawing their company.

Most people are so facile and stupid! I would never change something about myself simply to try to please other people, and especially I would not do so for the dumb ones.

by Anonymousreply 19912/18/2013

R199, you make me like you.

by Anonymousreply 20012/18/2013

R184, good points. :-)

by Anonymousreply 20112/18/2013

R199 Gender role? You don't get it, do you? At what point did I mention gender roles? I said that most people dislike a certain type of prissy, bitchy behavior that makes them feel like that person is acting. No matter of that person is female or a straight or gay male. Get it? This behavior is just as fucking annoying when women do it. And whenever these kind of people get into a situation where they natural behavior shows and they just react and have no time to act they suddenly switch back to normal behavior (or their natural mild feminine behavior in case of slighly feminine straight and gay men because that is just how the unconsciously, naturally behave) which shows it's just learned behavior.

Most people don't like affected, artifical behavior because they feel like that person is acting and being fake and it is completely irrelevant if that person is a straight or lesbian woman or a straight or gay man.

Get it?

Affected, prissy, bitchy, artifical = associated with fake, acting

Natural masculinity or femininity, unaffected = associated with honesty, realness, unsophistication

by Anonymousreply 20212/18/2013

Oh, and I would like to act that a man can be naturally masculine or feminine and a woman can be naturally feminine or masculine. But that is not the same as super affected, artifical, camp, flaming behavior which is learned and that goes for both men and women, regardless of their sexual orientation and of course the same goes for super butch masculine behavior of some women. At the point where you intentionally lower your voice and scratch your imaginary balls it's just fucking acting.

by Anonymousreply 20312/18/2013

are rural dudes more masculine than urban dudes?

by Anonymousreply 20412/18/2013

[quote]At what point did I mention gender roles?

AYFKM, R202? Read what you write. Trolldar yourself. Your concepts of gender roles ooze out of your pores. You're so steeped in them you don't even see them anymore. It's all there is to you.

by Anonymousreply 20512/18/2013

I think the uber-masculine guys hide it more often and -- let's face it -- more easily.

by Anonymousreply 20612/18/2013

R202 sounds like a reichtard describing homosexuality. "It's a choice they make. A CHOICE."

by Anonymousreply 20712/18/2013

OP, your father is a ding-dong diddy daddy!

by Anonymousreply 20812/18/2013


by Anonymousreply 20912/24/2013

The large majority of bi men are closeted. ONly a few are open.

by Anonymousreply 21002/06/2014

I can always tell a gay. It's like looking at Obama and thinking he's all black. You can always tell a queer. The way they lisp and mince and flit about.

I love when a gay gets mad and says you can't tell he's gay and then swishes off in a huff, lisping under his breath.

by Anonymousreply 21102/06/2014


by Anonymousreply 21202/08/2014

The flamers stand out like a nuke bomb!!

by Anonymousreply 21302/08/2014

I wish the non gays would get the fuck off this site, it would be so much more fun.

by Anonymousreply 21402/08/2014

How about bisexuals?

by Anonymousreply 21502/08/2014

It's hard to know from daily observations, since, walking down the street we only typically notice more stereotypical gays. But I would say that in the past few years, I've noticed an increasing number of "masculine" gay guys, out and proud in gay bars and on apps like grindr. Which makes me think that there's a much bigger number than most would have assumed.

by Anonymousreply 21602/08/2014

Your dad is right about that

by Anonymousreply 21702/09/2014

Bisexual men tend to be masculine, but they tend to adopt a heterosexual identity in public.

by Anonymousreply 21802/09/2014

So many self-hating homophobic trolls on this thread.

by Anonymousreply 21902/18/2014


by Anonymousreply 22003/13/2014

I've lived next door to the same people for over fifteen years. We all are relatively close, we usually do an afternoon beer together and chat about local stuff every couple weeks. Recently, I had them over for a gallery exhibition, I'm an artist. I paint abstract portraiture and a variety of other subjects. One of the neighbor men asked why I didn't do more female nudes. I replied, "I guess that I prefer doing men because I'm gay", he and the other neighbors were dumbfounded. They had no idea! After 15 years of living next to me, they had not a clue. They were totally cool, and thanked me for telling them something they didn't know about me. I was dumbfounded because they were so clueless.

Anyway, my point is that most gay men fall into the 'regular guy' category.

I realize the importance of 'coming out', because now when the anti-gay, hate machine is spinning these neighbors have a different viewpoint on who is gay, and what being gay really is about; honesty.

by Anonymousreply 22103/13/2014

[quote]If a masc gay or bi man can "pass for straight" he's going to.

Not true. This isn't 1971. I came out to my folks in 1972. Because I'm not stereotypical as far as my behavior and mannerisms go, I will let people know in some way that I'm gay, either by coming right out and telling them, or by speaking out when someone makes a "fag" joke. (Doesn't happen much anymore.)

by Anonymousreply 22203/13/2014

We need more openly gays masculine dudes in society

by Anonymousreply 22303/30/2014

Masculine gay/bi men will never come out en masse. They love their masculine male privilege more than gay/bi identity. Who blames them?

by Anonymousreply 22404/30/2014


by Anonymousreply 22505/10/2014


by Anonymousreply 22606/24/2014

Almost all masculine gay and bi dudes are closeted or in denial

by Anonymousreply 22707/23/2014


by Anonymousreply 22809/13/2014

The biggest nellies I know are vicious tops. So throw your stereotypes out the window.

by Anonymousreply 22909/13/2014

But since no one wants a nellie they can only masturbate R229.

by Anonymousreply 23009/13/2014

No one likes a tea room queen!

by Anonymousreply 23109/13/2014

My partner and I both fall into that "I'd never know if you hadn't told me" category. I don't honestly know where people get their impressions - I've always been out, always been open, and always been touchy with my partner, but people constantly are floored when I tell them - and don't get me wrong, we're not studly stud types or anything, just regular joes. My best friend is the nelliest thing on the planet.

by Anonymousreply 23209/13/2014

I've had guys walk up and say, "Do you realize you're in a gay bar?" At other times, some thought I must be an undercover cop sent in to spy on the gays. Maybe I should be like Aaron Schock and wear a pink gingham shirt and turquoise belt on white trousers.

by Anonymousreply 23309/15/2014

[quote]I've had guys walk up and say, "Do you realize you're in a gay bar?" At other times, some thought I must be an undercover cop sent in to spy on the gays.

I'm scratching head at both of these. Is this true or not?

by Anonymousreply 23409/15/2014

Before I started dating guys, I thought most homosexual guys were effeminate. That's what I always saw on TV and what people usually say about homosexual guys. I felt frustrated because being a homosexual guy means you are generally attracted to mannerisms associated with men. It really made me feel frustrated and angry that I would never be able to meet a guy like the avegare guy on the streets.

However, as soon as I met other homosexual guys I noticed that about 98% of them were not affeminate but average masculine like most guys. I took me about 2 years to finally comprehend that most homosexual guys behave like the avegare guy you see on the streets because stereotypes are so encrusted in your mind.

I once met a very effeminate guy who was very kind to me as a friend.

The problem is that the media and heteronormativity promote the false and wrong notion that masculinity is a heterosexual trait.

There are heterosexual men who are affeminate yet no one seems to notice they are heterosexual. In fact, in ancient times, effeminacy was associated with heterosexual men.

by Anonymousreply 23510/15/2014


by Anonymousreply 23610/16/2014

r235, why do you use the term "homosexual?" Just wondering.

by Anonymousreply 23710/16/2014

Homosexuality: the sexual, emotional and romantic attraction to the same sex.

Homosexual: a person who is sexually, emotionally and romantically attracted to the same sex.

Homosexuality --> Homosexual

Not rocket science.

by Anonymousreply 23810/16/2014

Yeah, most masculine gay or bisexual dudes never identify as bisexual Or gay. They don't want to give us their masculine male privilege with is seriously threatened by gay identity.

by Anonymousreply 23911/02/2014

I have noticed that some tend to have a homogenizing discourse when it comes to homosexuality as if being homosexual meant that all of us have the same personality, preferences, behaviour, etc.

The homogenizing dicourse is very common to hear: "WE gay men are..." "WE gay guys like to..." and many other "WE gays..." phrases.

I think this homogenizing discourse is reinforced by the fact that the only very visible spectruum of homosexual men is that of the effeminate subgroup. Some sort of conformation bias. The average homosexual guy whose behaviour doesn't classify as "peculiar" then is simply not considered gay until he either changes his behaviour to fit in the stereotype expected or if he publicly confirms his sexual orientation.

by Anonymousreply 24011/03/2014

[quote][R235], why do you use the term "homosexual?" Just wondering.

Because he's talking about homosexuals?

And before you ask another similar questionm, he used the term "heterosexual" to refer to heterosexuals.

by Anonymousreply 24111/03/2014

"Homosexual" is a correct word to use in all senses.

Reappropirate the word and don't let religious fundamentalists to take it and give it a negative connotation.

by Anonymousreply 24211/03/2014

Stereotypical gay men are a minority? Yes. Stereotypical masculine heterosexual men are a minority? Yes. Most men, regardless of their sexual orientation are not stereotypical.

by Anonymousreply 24312/04/2014

Probably like 2 months ago I read a forum were gender non-cmforsmist heterosexual people gather and talk about their life experiences regarding not being stereotypically masculine in the case of heterosexual men.

by Anonymousreply 24412/10/2014

R244, I can only imagine how homophobic that forum was. "I'm not gay!" was probably on every thread.

by Anonymousreply 24512/10/2014

R245 Not really. There was even a section for crossdressers.

Not homophobic at all, just heterosexual poeple telling discrimination and bullying they have experienced for not adjusting to what society expects from them.

This very much confirms that both masculine anf feminine behaviour are for the most part learnt/acquired.

by Anonymousreply 24612/10/2014

That's interesting, R246. I don't agree with your last statement though. I believe that feminine and masculine personality traits are biological for a lot.

by Anonymousreply 24712/10/2014

R247 To some extent they are, but most of it is learnt. Have you ever met someone that made a positive impact on you so you subconsciously ended up taking some of that person's behaviour, probably they way he/she talked, moved, etc. That's basically the way we acquire masculinity and femininity. They are more of a social construct.

Also, what masculine here is not masculine there and so on.

by Anonymousreply 24812/10/2014

That's interesting, R248. Maybe, but what about little boys who are feminine?

by Anonymousreply 24912/10/2014

Nah. All gay men are more fem. Hyper butch is a role, a fetish, a role.

by Anonymousreply 25012/10/2014

R249 As I said, to some extent, masculinity and feminity are natural in all humans being. Some are more on the feminine side while other are more on the masculine side regardless of sexual orientation and biological gender.

However, most of what we call masculine and femeninine is a social construct that varies accordind to country, society, culture, etc.

For example, there is this documentary on a heterosexual woman who is disabled, she lost the lower half of her body to a life threatening disease. She talks about her father and how he was a very inspiring image in her life that when you see her you can see how masculine she is. She is also a car mechaninc, married and has a kid.

by Anonymousreply 25112/10/2014

I hate it when gay guys use the term "butch." Sounds so feminine just to say it like that.

by Anonymousreply 25212/10/2014

We are in the Era of the Dude bros, the ubermales. Dude bros and jocks are the most sought after guys, whether by women or by men. Anyone who fits into that ideal will be desired and exalted by the most people.

by Anonymousreply 25312/11/2014

For obvious reasons, effeminate gay men stand out in the crowd and so do heterosexual effeminate men, however, since patriarchy says that "heterosexual men are all masculine" they will be classified as "gay".

Reasons for men, especially homosexual men not to make display of a more masculine behavior? One cause is lack of identification with masculinity, probably from the fact that heterosexual masculinity is presented to us in a threatening way because it basically abhors homosexuality so you might not identify with something that threatens you.

Now, if you look into the past you will find that the association of effeminacy with homosexuality is relatively recent. Homosexual boys who were born in homophobic societies feeling outcast from an early age, feeling less of a man for not being attracted to women. Society strongly associate masculinity with liking women so certainly a portion of homosexual men grew up thinking of themselves as less of a man for this reason, they didn't connect with their masculinity, people's prejudice indirectly encouraged this detachment.

In a way, heterosexist societies monopolized masculinity making it their own possession even though masculinity, in no way, is a heterosexual trait. The proof is that there are as many masculine homsoexual guys as there are masculine heterosexual guys.

How masculine a man will be has nothing to do with sexual orientation; it has to do with how it is presented to you. Certainly, heterosexual masculinity opposes homosexuality, can you identify with something that mistreats you? Obviously not. You feel constantly rejected by it so you cannot embrace it because it doesn't embrace you either.

This is what happens to some homosexual guys but it also happens to some heterosexual guys.

by Anonymousreply 25412/11/2014

Heterosexuality, Homosexuality and Masculinity.

by Anonymousreply 25512/11/2014


by Anonymousreply 25601/27/2015

We need more openly gay masculine dudes

by Anonymousreply 25703/06/2015

[quote]Have you ever met someone that made a positive impact on you so you subconsciously ended up taking some of that person's behaviour, probably they way he/she talked, moved, etc. That's basically the way we acquire masculinity and femininity. They are more of a social construct.

I've always thought that Freud was just a little bit right. I think most boys do go through something like an Oedipus complex and most girls go through something like an Electra complex, and this is how they learn their gender roles. But for homosexual children that gets flipped and the girls go through an Oedipus complex and the boys go through an Electra complex, and for them gender roles becomes a little confused. I really think children do feel their sexual orientation on a subconscious level far earlier then we feel comfortable acknowledging.

by Anonymousreply 25803/06/2015

I think that as homosexuals we need to embrace our femininity & that we are the third sex.

God didn't make me special to try to pretend I'm straight.

He made me a homo so u could be fabulous & artistic.

All you who want to be "straight" acting, get over your internalized homophobia

Get on you knees suck a dick or back that ass up and live a little. As a gay man it's my right to be sexual & different, I don't want to try to be someone else & adopt the horrific repressive lifestyle of a straight man!!

by Anonymousreply 25903/06/2015

R259.. Oy! The wand. The wings. The scepter. You rule a very small kingdom, queenie!

by Anonymousreply 26003/06/2015

R259 for utter truth and brilliance (American brilliance, not British).

by Anonymousreply 26103/06/2015

[quote]Get on you knees suck a dick or back that ass up and live a little. As a gay man it's my right to be sexual....

Which has NOTHING to do with acting prissy/bitchy. I respect your right to have sex, but not a right to annoy others and avoid being called out for how annoying it is.

by Anonymousreply 26203/06/2015

The "social construct" troll is beyond tiresome. It insists on flogging its freshman psych cliches and understands nothing.



by Anonymousreply 26303/06/2015

R262, Huh, wtf you saying

by Anonymousreply 26403/06/2015

I don't feel like I belong is a third gender. I feel like a man and very comfortable with it. My attraction for guys is in no way in conflict with my gender identity.

by Anonymousreply 26503/06/2015

I think you are sex negative, against the full enjoyment of your sexuality & accepting as a gay man, it's your birthdate, to have several partners & to anally dominated is something to revel in and be Proud of experiencing

by Anonymousreply 26603/06/2015
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