Ugh, why did they pick Walter Matthau for the male lead? He was so ugly and always looked like an old man, even when he was young.
|by Anonymous||reply 219||08/10/2013|
Sorry to hijack your thread but could you open a thread about ELLEN PAGE's outing? It makes quite the round on the Internet. ONTD is talking about etc.
|by Anonymous||reply 1||08/11/2011|
Is anyone surprised about Ellen Page. She's gives off a baby dyke vibe.
|by Anonymous||reply 2||08/11/2011|
Elaine Paige is gay?
|by Anonymous||reply 5||08/11/2011|
Yeah the Ellen PAge thread sounds like fun. Do it OP!
|by Anonymous||reply 6||08/11/2011|
What on earth are you talking about, r3? "Vandergelder" is Dutch, NOT German (if he'd been of german ancestry it would have been "von").
That said, Walter Matthau was just awful casting for the part of Horace. While he was the right age for the part (Horace is not a young man, and Dolly is actually a good twenty years older than Streisand was when the movie was made), he couldn't sing. Odd for a musical. And on top of that, he loathed and despised Barbra Streisand, and it shows. There is just NO chemistry between the two of them, no matter how good actors they might have been.
|by Anonymous||reply 7||08/11/2011|
Matthau killed Hello Dolly whenever he was on the screen. Who do we blame? Kelly? Barbra? Who hired him? Did you know the cute little blond guy was gay and was murdered?
|by Anonymous||reply 8||08/11/2011|
Why didn't Kelly play Vandergelder?
|by Anonymous||reply 9||08/11/2011|
[quote]he couldn't sing. Odd for a musical.%0D %0D Strange how that happens. Just sayin.
|by Anonymous||reply 10||08/11/2011|
Please. The role of Vandergelder was written for David Burns, who wasn't much of a singer himself - which is why the character doesn't do any of the legit singing in the show.
And Matthau didn't ruin Dolly - the egregious miscasting of Streisand did that. Too young and completely wrong for the part of Dolly Gallagher Levi (of course, they had to cut out her middle name to accommodate Streisand).
|by Anonymous||reply 11||08/11/2011|
Sorry, Charlie! I think she was superb in the role, miscast but superb. What a glamorous film that is much better appreciated today than when it first came out. It's rated 4 and 1/2 stars on cable these days.
|by Anonymous||reply 12||08/11/2011|
Hello, Dolly is one of the most beloved film musicals of all time, and it was nominated for Best Picture.
Streisand won't speak of it to this day.
Carol Channing tried to commit suicide when Streisand got the role.
|by Anonymous||reply 13||08/11/2011|
I didn't know Walter Matthau hated Barbra Streisand. Why?
|by Anonymous||reply 14||08/11/2011|
It was a huge financial flop. Because of the deal they had with Merrick - that it couldn't be released until it closed in NY - they had to delay the release a year.
The nomination for Best Picture was derided by most critics at the time as undeserved.
|by Anonymous||reply 15||08/11/2011|
Everybody loves Hello, Dolly. The hatred for this movie is contained to DL.
|by Anonymous||reply 16||08/11/2011|
Streisand was a total bitch on the "Hello, Dolly!" set, just as she had been on "Funny Girl."
The difference is that she knew "Funny Girl" inside and out. That wasn't the case with Dolly, and Matthau grew tired of her throwing her weight around with Gene Kelly and Michael Kidd, both experience makers of movie musicals.
|by Anonymous||reply 17||08/11/2011|
[quote]The hatred for this movie is contained to DL.%0D %0D The HATE TROLL is back at r16. She's unable to comprehend the meaning of "dislike."
|by Anonymous||reply 18||08/11/2011|
[quote]Miss Streisand's obvious youth and real sexuality obliterated any sense of nostalgia in the "Hello, Dolly!" number and add a curious ambiguity to other aspects of the role, including her speeches directed to Mr. Levi, her late husband. (I had the odd feeling that she must have been married to him at the age of 8 and lost him at 10). The star, a fine if limited comedienne, impersonates Dolly as a teen-age Mae West, circling around the role and finding laughs occasionally, but never quite committing herself to it.
That's the NY Times review.
|by Anonymous||reply 19||08/11/2011|
Let's not forget young Michael Crawford, who later on went to bigger fame as "The Phantom of the Opera". Couldn't believe it was the same guy!
|by Anonymous||reply 20||08/11/2011|
OP, you're crazy. Obviously you have never seen Walter when he was young.
|by Anonymous||reply 21||08/11/2011|
R20, that paradox inspired one of Forbidden Broadway's funniest numbers, "Put on Your Phony Voice."
|by Anonymous||reply 22||08/11/2011|
Mae West got very upset at Streisand, who she thought was copying her in Hello, Dolly.
|by Anonymous||reply 23||08/11/2011|
No one knew how good or bad she was on film when Dolly was in production because Funny Girl hadn't been released yet. %0D %0D She was The Star of Dolly, "a singer trying to be an actress." She had opinions, she was fussy and bitchy, and she acted like a star. Matthau couildn't handle it. That's why he hated her.%0D %0D I can't stand the movie, so it doesn't matter to me.
|by Anonymous||reply 24||08/12/2011|
Streisand may have been miscast, but the movie died whenever she was off-screen.
|by Anonymous||reply 25||08/12/2011|
One didn't notice, though, r25, because it was also dead when she was onscreen.
She was dreadful in the role, and miscast, and arrogant - but it WAS Hello, Dolly!, so it probably would have sucked no matter who did it.
|by Anonymous||reply 26||08/12/2011|
Gene Kelly was horrified that Carol Channing had beat out Barbra for the Tony that year. He did not appreciate Carol at all and he felt in general that the Broadway community was stuffy and rewarding the wrong people. It was a statement when he cast Barbra in the film. Walter was an old friend. Barbra did become friends with Michael Crawford during the shoot as they were the same age and had young children.
At the time it may have seemed inappropriate age casting with Barbra, but in hind sight the fact that she looked the same for over twenty odd years, thanks to her good skin and great bone structure, she could have been in her forties and she'd have looked the same. She doesn't read 28 in the film.
Walter was bad casting. And yes he did hate the way she challenged Michael Kidd and Gene Kelly.
|by Anonymous||reply 27||08/12/2011|
She was quoted as saying to someone "I'm being directed by a tap dancer!" Can you imagine? Gene had directed On The Town and the musical numbers in the greatest musical of all time: Singin' In The Rain, and Babs thought she had the wrong director.
Walter eventually became a friend and attended some of her later concerts.
|by Anonymous||reply 28||08/12/2011|
[quote]She doesn't read 28 in the film.
Right. She read even younger (She was 25 when filming of "Dolly" began - turned 26 two weeks into it).
Dolly Gallagher Levi is a middle-aged woman who has been a widow for many years and who has withdrawn herself from life and old friends and wants to be a part of it again(that's the point of "Before the Parade Passes By" and the title song).
Streisand was so wrong she distorted the piece completely to try to make it work, and it still didn't. Because she couldn't pull it off. It didn't matter that she's not a great actress, no one of that age could have pulled it off.
And I don't believe Gene Kelly was so ungentlemanly about Carol Channing. Don't believe he was "horrified" that Channing took the Tony.
|by Anonymous||reply 29||08/12/2011|
Oh please, r27, Gene Kelly would have taken anything he could have gotten to direct by 1968. He was directing the biggest Bway musical of the 1960s with the biggest musical star of the 1960s. And the film was staffed by loads of MGM has-beens. Such as Roger Edens and Lena Horne's drunken gay ex-husband and Dolly musical director.%0D %0D "She was quoted as saying to someone "I'm being directed by a tap dancer!" Can you imagine?"%0D %0D Arthur Laurents quotes Streisand as saying that in his autobio, r28. Laurents hated Gene Kelly, he could have made it up. Then again, no one said Streisand wasn't ignorant.
|by Anonymous||reply 30||08/12/2011|
They probably went with Matthau because at the time he was considered a big box office draw. The producers may have been hoping that he would draw an audience that Streisand could not.
|by Anonymous||reply 31||08/12/2011|
Matthau a BIG BOX OFFICE draw??? LOL. Guess it was The Odd Couple, hmmmm?
|by Anonymous||reply 32||08/12/2011|
R28: Streisand was wrong in the part, but she was right about being directed by a tap dancer. The direction in "Hello Dolly" is moribund.
But "Hello Dolly" is one of the stupidest musicals ever written. There is no story.
|by Anonymous||reply 33||08/12/2011|
Yes the Odd Couple and the Fortune Cookie were big hits and came out just prior to Hello Dolly
|by Anonymous||reply 34||08/12/2011|
Carol Matthau, who was the inspiration for Capote's Holly Golightly character in Breakfast at Tiffany's, was a HUGE fan of Streisand's, and she is credited for bringing them back together again. Barbra and Carol became good friends over the years.
|by Anonymous||reply 36||08/12/2011|
I remember reading a long time ago about the friction between Barbra and Walter. Then just a few days later, I was watching that HBO special with Barbra from her Malibu place that was considered her big comeback to live performing.
Before she made her fantastic entrance through the smoke machine, they had shown the loads of celebrities who had made it to the performance. There was Bette and Sally Field and Sheena Easton and oh look, there in the front row, all smiles and shaking hands ...Walter Matthau! Funny, I thought, he hates her but I guess he is still a fan.
|by Anonymous||reply 37||08/12/2011|
True, R37. It may disappoint her distractors to know that she doesn't have any lifelong enemies, which is very rare for Hollywood. She personally buried the hatchet with anyone who she might have had tension with earlier on in her career.
Barbra even called up Lainie Kazan a few years ago and asked how she was doing. Lainie was so touched by Barbra's phone call that she cried.
|by Anonymous||reply 38||08/12/2011|
I love the Barbra freaks. They spin such bizarre fantasies about her.
|by Anonymous||reply 39||08/12/2011|
It was a dated piece of middle-brow junk from the get-go, not some hallowed theater classic. %0D %0D Do you think anyone would have paid to see close-ups of Carol Channing's head for two hours? Shirley Jones'? Florence Henderson's?
|by Anonymous||reply 40||08/12/2011|
R38: Frankly, it would have meant more if she hadn't called collect.
|by Anonymous||reply 41||08/12/2011|
Matthau is pretty traditional casting for Horace in both the musical and the original play. Streisand was not traditional casting but she is a star, is funny and sings the score better than anyone else who has played it.
|by Anonymous||reply 42||08/12/2011|
R42: NAILED IT! and in just 2 sentences! BRAVO!
|by Anonymous||reply 43||08/12/2011|
R42 I agree. But I think Babs is excellent as Dolly Levi. I first saw it when I was 8, so I think only as Babs as Dolly. Though as an adult I realize she is miscasted. She is the best miscast in the world. You can't take your eyes off her. The screen comes alive with her real, and original self.%0D %0D And the great Louis Armstrong has a great bit.
|by Anonymous||reply 44||08/12/2011|
Elizabeth Taylor sums it all up right here....
|by Anonymous||reply 45||08/12/2011|
Are any of you actors who have been cast in the lead of a show that was clearly going to be crap from Jump Street? It's hell.
From the beginning, Gene Kelly was a lousy director, Matthau was a renowned depressed misanthrope with contempt for his role, the supporting cast was largely untalented and deadly dull, the screenplay was stodgy interminable and while all expectations were on Streisand to save it, all hopes were that she would fail.
There are about 20 minutes of the movie that work and they're all Barbra's and/or Luis Armstrong's. If Barbra had to be a royal bitch to get that 20 minutes, it's more than they would have got without her.
|by Anonymous||reply 46||08/12/2011|
Pauline Kael loved Barbra as Dolly, and she was not always a fan.
|by Anonymous||reply 47||08/12/2011|
first off, Horace was NOT written for David Burns. He auditioned and got the part and by all accounts, was splendid. And he sings like a fog horn.
Matthau was ideal casting. The role is supposed to be a rascaly curmudgeon. No, he doesn't sing like Howard Keel, but name me one Horace who does. He has zero chemistry with Streisand, but then, they didn't exactly have Billy Wilder as a director.
Kelly did not cast Babs. The studio did. He was lucky to get the gig, as his directing career, post-Stanley Donen was in the tank. And Donen turned it down, as did Gower Champion, who was desperate to have a career as a film director.
|by Anonymous||reply 48||08/12/2011|
Except that David Burns was adorable; Matthau was repellent.
|by Anonymous||reply 49||08/12/2011|
Wasn't one of the actors in this film murdered by a trick in the 1970's? I think it was the little blonde twink.
|by Anonymous||reply 50||08/12/2011|
r48: Donen would have been SO superior to Kelly.
|by Anonymous||reply 51||08/12/2011|
No, he died of AIDS. You might be thinking of Sal Mineo.
|by Anonymous||reply 52||08/12/2011|
Danny Lockin (Barnaby) was killed one night when he went home with a drunk from a bar. The guy flipped out and stabbed Danny 100 times. He bled out on the guys floor and the guy called the police claiming a robbery. Police found pornographic/torture materials in the guys house and yet he only served a couple of years in prison.
|by Anonymous||reply 53||08/12/2011|
The "kissy-kissy" Hollywood phoniness in the clip at r45 is hilarious!
|by Anonymous||reply 54||08/13/2011|
[quote]Do you think anyone would have paid to see close-ups of Carol Channing's head for two hours? Shirley Jones'? Florence Henderson's? LOL--Do you think they paid to see Barbra's? The film was considered a big flop. It cost $25 million to make and only cleared $13 million at the box office.
|by Anonymous||reply 55||08/13/2011|
Roz Russell should have played Dolly Levi in the film.
|by Anonymous||reply 56||08/13/2011|
In the youth-oriented world of Hollywood at the time, Roz Russell wouldn't have sold three tickets.
|by Anonymous||reply 57||08/13/2011|
"To answer your question, OP, they needed a Jewish leading man opposite Barbra Streisand."
WTF? Omar Sharif, Robert Redford - who played opposite Barbra Streisand, as both her Jewish and non-Jewish husbands, shortly before and after Funny Girl, both not Jewish. Anne Bancroft and Katharikne Ross who played opposite Dusting Hoffman in The Graduate - not Jewish. Carrie Snodgress who played Richard Benjamin's wife in Diary of a Mad Housewife - not Jewish. Ali McGraw who played Richard Benjamin's Jewish girlfriend in Goodbye Columbus - not Jewish.
And then there's Woody Allen who spent the entire period in question playing opposite Diane Keaton.
And many years earlier than that. Charlie Chaplin and Paulette Goddard. Charles Boyer and Hedy Lamar. Leslie Howard and Olivia De Haviland. John Garfield and Lana Turner. John Garfield and Joan Crawford. The history of Jews playing opposite non-Jews in Hollywood is quite old.
I think your theory needs some work.
Now to answer OP's question. Matthau plays opposite Barbra because Matthau was Hollywoods most bankable grouch. Horace Vandergelder is a grouch.
Matthau's being older and not particularly attractive are perfectly right for Horace. Barbra was, famously, not particularly attractive, it might be noted, so it's not surprising that handsome was not a quality they were hellbent on finding in Horace.
Finally, the question is not why Horace Vandergelder, a middle aged man, was played by a middle aged man.
The question is why Dolly Gallagher Levy, a middle-aged woman, was played by a woman in her 20s.
|by Anonymous||reply 58||08/13/2011|
The role of Vandergelder is supposed to be an older man -- he is widowed and raising a teenage niece (Ermengarde), and is not looking for love or a sexual partner when he engages Dolly LEvi to find him a wife -- he's looking for a cook and maid whom he doesn't have to pay! He is a cynical cheapskate. He is the musical theatre's equivalent to W.C. Fields. Matthau was a terrific choice -- if he'd been cast against an age- appropriate Dolly. I'm not sure who the age-appropriate character actor for Streisand might have been at the time.
|by Anonymous||reply 59||08/13/2011|
It was produced in Todd-AO!!!%0D %0D "You'll see ALL the show in Todd-AO!"
|by Anonymous||reply 60||08/13/2011|
R-50 is right - he was murdered - very sad story - yes it was a trick.
|by Anonymous||reply 61||08/13/2011|
[quote] I'm not sure who the age-appropriate character actor for Streisand might have been at the time.
Steve McQueen IS Horace Vandergelder!
|by Anonymous||reply 62||08/13/2011|
LOL, r38. Typical delusional Streisand fan.%0D %0D %0D "Pauline Kael loved Barbra as Dolly, and she was not always a fan."%0D %0D Bull. Kael was positively QUEER for Streisand from day one.
|by Anonymous||reply 63||08/13/2011|
All these posts and no mention of "The Matchmaker" (play and movie). Paul Ford was a wonderful Vandergelder and Shirley Booth the perfect Dolly (just as perfect as Carol Channing). And what a cast - Shirley MacLaine, Robert Morse, Anthony Perkins, Wallace Ford.
|by Anonymous||reply 64||08/13/2011|
What is funny about the R45 link (other than the fake, kissy-poo show biz BS) is that even thought Elizabeth Taylor is complimenting Streisand she is doing it in a rather backhanded way.
She is basically saying, "Barbra, you used to be such an icy, unapproachable bitch that even I, one of the biggest stars in the history of Hollywood, felt as if I couldn't come up to you at a party without you snapping at me for blocking your light or addressing your bad side. Now that you are regularly getting pounded by Brolin's enormous dick, you are so much nicer. Kisses!"
|by Anonymous||reply 65||08/13/2011|
I can never get over how many threads have been given to the film version of "Hello, Dolly!" over the years on DL. It's a terrible film. But though I am not a Streisand fan (that kissy-poo nonsense Elizabeth Taylor indulges in at r45 nauseates me, and reminds me of that appalling moment at the Oscars fifteen years ago when she referred to the recently deceased Audrey Hepburn as "dear departed Audrey"--gag!), I think the best thing in the movie is Streisand.
There really was no one else at the time who could have played the part. Carol Channing just never translates well onto film because, like Zero Mostel, she always projects too insanely broadly and doesn't tone herself down for the camera. And though Angela Lansbury probably would have been a better choice overall, even though the film did flop it would have probably done worse with Lansbury since she was considered big film box office at the time. (Neother Shirley Jones nor Julie Andrews would have been right for the part, and Carol Burnett was not considered a big film star at the time and was the same age roughly as Streisand.) Streisand does come across as a woman in her thirties in "Hello Dolly!," and since she's going to marry Horace for his money, the age disparity between Streisand and Matthau doesn't bother me so much. It is conceivable she married her first husband in her twenties and lost him early and is looking to marry again.
About the only humor in the entire film occurs from Streisand's Mae West-like line deliveries, and so I appreciate them because otherwise the thing would be just be deadly. The problem with the film is not Streisand nor Matthau: it's the cutesiness of everything else. The musical already suffered greatly from that bane of so many American musicals (OKLAHOMA!, THE MUSIC MAN, etc.), which is rose-colored nostalgia, and the writers of the book greatly amplified it with such awful ideas as repeatedly referring to Vandergelder as "the celebrated half-a-millionaire" (has that line ever made anyone laugh? even once?). And Kelly has everyone SMILE BIG ALL THE TIME in all his dance numbers which is so unbelievably cheesy, and the supporting cast consists of the cheesiest, phoniest actors I can think of, each projecting as big as Carol Channing herself: Michael Crawford, Tommy Tune, E. J. Peaker, Joyce Ames, and the horrible Marianne McAndrew as Irene Molloy. They all roll their eyes when they deliver their lines and mince unconscionably when they dance... when you watch the film you just keep waiting for Streisand to come back to cut the treacle a little bit. The only other pleasure in the whole film are the multiple shots of Danny Lockin's ass: he's as sugary and as goggly-eyed as the rest of the supporting cast but as least he had a great butt.
|by Anonymous||reply 66||08/13/2011|
There's Louis Armstrong and Barbra's moment together, and there's the rest of it, which you can pitch into the garbage.
|by Anonymous||reply 67||08/13/2011|
You're the asshole, r63. Read the review of Funny Lady (among others). In FL, she called her "no longer human; she's like a bitchy female impersonator imitating Barbra Streisand."
|by Anonymous||reply 68||08/13/2011|
Ironically, Barbra could be a perfect Dolly today at age 70-whatever. %0D %0D But of course, now she's going the miscasting route in the other direction as the 40-something Rose in Gypsy.
|by Anonymous||reply 69||08/13/2011|
I couldn't stand it anymore and am watching this trainwreck as we speak. I saw it when it first came out and hadn't seen it since.%0D %0D What a mess. Overblown, interminably long and ridiculous.%0D %0D I love Barbra but she really does suck in this.%0D Horribly miscast. Matthau is only slightly better but the two of them with their Brooklyn accents are just awful on the whole. Don't even start me on everyone else. The direction, script, choreography...it's all just terrible.%0D %0D It's so bad we're actually enjoying it.
|by Anonymous||reply 70||08/13/2011|
Though credited with the whole mess, Irene Sharaff just designed Barbra's costumes. Her magic yardstick didn't touch Marianne McAndrew or EJ Peaker.
|by Anonymous||reply 71||08/13/2011|
[quote]You're the asshole, R63. Read the review of Funny Lady (among others). In FL, she called her "no longer human; she's like a bitchy female impersonator imitating Barbra Streisand."%0D %0D R68 AKA "Do your research, queen" - I'm not R63, but I want to defend him by saying Funny Lady came later on in her career, and that Kael did in fact love Streisand in her early movies.%0D %0D Re Funny Girl: "Barbra arrives on the screen, in Funny Girl, when the movies are in desperate need of her. The timing is perfect."%0D %0D Re The Owl and the Pussycat: "Though she doesn't sing in this picture, she's still a singing actress; she makes her lines funny musically, and she can ring more changes on a line than anybody since W.C. Fields."%0D %0D re The Way We Were: [H]er sass is defensive and aggressive in the same breath. But it's part of her gradual conquest of the movie public that this won't put people off. Even the unflattering photography and the forties makeup . . . don't damage her."
|by Anonymous||reply 72||08/13/2011|
I never understood how she can be completely accepted as both the 17 year old Fanny Brice and the 37 year old Fanny Brice at the end of Funny Girl but somehow her age in Hello Dolly becomes a HUGE issue. If she can be 37 year old Fanny in FG why can't she be 35-37 in HD?
Since when are people so married to this HD source material?
She read as a pushy but charming New Yorker. It's essential that the character be incredibly pushy, secure in her talents, yet amusing and able to switch gears at a moments notice. The character is persuasive and has incredible perseverance. That's what's important.
She was all of this. And she sang that score better than anyone before or after.
As for the show itself, well it ain't Sondheim. It's a confection, a nostalgic farcical bon bon. Silly and colorful and mindless and fun.
As for the source material, Wilder didn't create Dolly. She was a minor character in an old English play which he adapted for a farce which flopped and then he readapted it in order to expand on the Dolly character which was the character that was most successful in his adapted flop.
If he could expand on the character than why can't anyone else?
|by Anonymous||reply 73||08/13/2011|
[quote]Since when are people so married to this HD source material?
It's not a question of being married to the source material.
It's that the source material is farce. Farce deals in types. If you alter the types you alter the purpose of the farce.
The age issue is important because the characters' ages are relevant to their roles. Horace and Dolly are OLDER. They are "over the hill." It's 1890, there's no Viagra and Horace has a limp old dick. Dolly doesn't care. She doesn't want sex, she wants security. Horace is a rich old miser who doesn't know how to enjoy his money. Dolly will teach him how to have fun and they will live happily for a while until they die.
Irene is a young widow. She's not a virgin, She had a husband, she knows what sex is and she wants more. Horace can't give it to her. That's why Dolly is helping her by NOT letting her trade away a second chance at Young Love and good sex and settling for an impotent old fart with money.
Cornelius is a 28-year-old virgin. He needs an experienced woman to show him the ropes. He marries the young widow and they have a happy sex life that makes up for not having lots of money.
If Dolly and Irene are the same age then Horace might just as well marry Irene. Dolly ends up looking like a double-crossing money-grubber to insert herself between her clients.
Matthau was well cast as Horace but they should have aged him UP not down. They should have cast Betty Grable or Ginger Rogers as Dolly. If they had anticipated the "nostalgia craze" that struck just after this film was made they might have had a big hit by hiring one of those old-time movie queens in the title role. It might have even been a good movie.
|by Anonymous||reply 74||08/14/2011|
Ooh, good idea, r74. And both Rogers and Grable played Dolly onstage. Grable would have been warmer as Dolly. Rogers was such a cold bitch.
Betty Grable as Dolly. Perfect. And they could have gone with Ann-Margret (who screen-tested) for Irene Molloy for a little extra box-office clout.
Matthau was fresh off his Oscar win - and Dolly was filmed well after "Odd Couple," - so he actually had some cachet by the time Dolly was released.
Betty Grable, Walter Matthau, Ann-Margret. Fabulous! If they still wanted clout, they could have gotten some hot young star as Cornelius.
The right casting can make a lot of difference, even with indifferent direction. Stick Angela Lansbury into that dreadful movie of Mame, and it immediately would have been 100% better, with the same dreadful direction and costumes.
|by Anonymous||reply 75||08/14/2011|
Another reason it's important to observe proper casting with respect to age is that the principle conflict of the plot is that a dowdy middle-aged woman has to convince a horny old goat that he doesn't want a pretty young bride.
|by Anonymous||reply 76||08/14/2011|
R72, how about reading the post in question. R68 was contending that Kael was not always a fan of Streisand, which proved to be true, especially later in her career. She zinged Streisand in "Star is Born" and "Main Event" like never before but also liked her in "All Night Long." Kael appreciated Streisand's talent early on, even revered it. But she was also able to write critically about her, especially after Bette Midler had taken over Streisand's place in her affections.
|by Anonymous||reply 77||08/14/2011|
"Irene is a young widow. She's not a virgin, She had a husband, she knows what sex is and she wants more. Horace can't give it to her. That's why Dolly is helping her by NOT letting her trade away a second chance at Young Love and good sex and settling for an impotent old fart with money."
Well thanks for your in depth analysis R74! And all this time I thought that Dolly was ruining Irene's chances with Horace by setting her up with Cornelius because SHE wanted Horace for herself. Thank you for illuminating me that Dolly is really a grand champion for young widows sex lives.
Get a fucking grip. The point of the story is that the Matchmaker is making a match for herself.
The age difference between her and Irene Malloy is irrelevant.
And Dolly IS a double crossing money grubber coming in between her and her clients in order to favor herself. The thing is that in a farce like this, all's well that ends well.
|by Anonymous||reply 78||08/14/2011|
r78 you better open yourself up to r74's interpretation because it's actually a perfect analysis of the play/musical's intentions when cast properly. %0D %0D Your notion that the ages of the women is irrelevant is utter post-modern laziness.
|by Anonymous||reply 79||08/14/2011|
"Your notion that the ages of the women is irrelevant is utter post-modern laziness."
It's a musical, darling, not "Finnegan's Wake".
|by Anonymous||reply 80||08/14/2011|
"There's Louis Armstrong and Barbra's moment together, and there's the rest of it, which you can pitch into the garbage."%0D %0D Contrary to what most people seem to think, I think Streisand and Armstrong is a disaster -- he looks like he's bout to keel over after his dramatic weight loss. And there's absolutely no chemistry or connection betweem them. %0D %0D "Carol Burnett was not considered a big film star at the time and was the same age roughly as Streisand"%0D %0D NINE years is hardly the "same age roughly."%0D %0D God, R74, how old are you? Eighteen?%0D %0D Thanks R72.
|by Anonymous||reply 81||08/14/2011|
AND "contending that 'Kael was not always a fan' of Streisand, which proved to be true, especially later in her career."%0D %0D Yeah -- ONLY after she began to put out shitty movie and lousy performances. %0D %0D The inference was that Kael loved Streisand in Dolly and she had "not always been a fan" -- had, past tense. As if Kael finally came around and liked Streisand in Hello Dolly. Total bullshit. Kael loved her until she started to deliver shit. The shit started with Funny Lady in 1975. Kael did like Yentl, somehow.
|by Anonymous||reply 82||08/14/2011|
Another thing you've got to remember is the film was released in 1969: the Age of Aquarius. Betty Grable or Ginger Rogers would have made the film seem even squarer than it already was.
|by Anonymous||reply 83||08/14/2011|
Oh yes, the movie was SO hip because of Streisand's presence. Grable or Rogers would have elevated the whole piece because they would have been RIGHT for it (although if Matthau though Streisand was a bitch, he would have really hated Rogers).
|by Anonymous||reply 84||08/14/2011|
If I may intervene, I did not say Kael "had always been a fan." I said she "was not always a fan," which was true, as r77 interpreted perfectly. Thanks, r77! I owe you a drink.
|by Anonymous||reply 85||08/14/2011|
This is a great thread.%0D %0D Another thing with HELLO, DOLLY: The country had changed so radically between 1964 and 1969. When Fox bought the property in 1964, nobody thought it would run as long as it did. Merrick kept it going (a la the Weisslers and CHICAGO) with "Old Hollywood" star Dollys and the Pearl Bailey - Cab Calloway African-American version. Fox was stuck as they could not release the film till after the show closed on Broadway.%0D %0D HELLO, DOLLY was a perfect splashy Broadway show for 1964 (and had it been made as as a film in 1964 with Doris Day might have been a smash), but by the late '60s it was a relic from another era. The HAIR film had the same problem...it was made at least ten years too late.
|by Anonymous||reply 86||08/14/2011|
I agree with r 81: Neither Satchmo and Streisand are really in the groove with each other.%0D %0D Armstrong most have gotten a HUGE fee (his recording of the song was a smash hit) - He got 'co-starring' billing and his time on screen is exactly one minute.
|by Anonymous||reply 87||08/14/2011|
I shudda played it on screen! Charisma was my middle name!! Especially on screen!!!
|by Anonymous||reply 88||08/14/2011|
R85 is NOT me.
|by Anonymous||reply 89||08/14/2011|
WHO is the false r85, pretending to be r63? I nominate r74 to get to the root of the mystery.
|by Anonymous||reply 90||08/14/2011|
Shirley McClaine would have made a terrific Dolly Levi, and she and Matthau would have played off each other very well. Unfortunately, she couldn't have sung the score.
|by Anonymous||reply 91||08/14/2011|
[quote]Grable or Rogers would have elevated the whole piece because they would have been RIGHT for it
At this point in their lives, they each resembled nothing so much as a reluctantly aging cocktail waitress at the Topeka Ramada Inn. Their glory days--and they were both very talented--were long over.
|by Anonymous||reply 92||08/14/2011|
Shirley McClaine = Shirley MacLaine%0D %0D Did you know that Merrick offered the stage role to Lena Horne in 1970? She didn't want it.
|by Anonymous||reply 93||08/14/2011|
Even Doris Day was a few years past her sell-by date by the mid-60s. I doubt that she would have sold a lot of tickets then, much less by 1969. %0D %0D And frankly, Shirley McLaine was in between her wacky ingenue roles and former-past-lives bitchy lady parts in 1964. Not good timing for her either.%0D %0D
|by Anonymous||reply 94||08/14/2011|
Shirley MacLaine could have sung the score as written. It was written for Carol Channing's character voice, not for a Streisand-type voice.
But MacLaine was only 34 when Dolly filmed - it wouldn't have been much of an improvement on age (although it would have been interesting, considering she played Irene Molloy in the movie of "The Matchmaker.")
|by Anonymous||reply 95||08/15/2011|
Grable as Dolly
|by Anonymous||reply 96||08/15/2011|
They should remake this with Katy Perry and Russell Brand as Dolly and Horace. Blockbuster, I tell you. Lines around the block.
|by Anonymous||reply 97||08/15/2011|
Considering all the fun but slightly tawdry period musicals Betty Grable made in the 30s and 40s, she must have been a wonderful Dolly.
With all the millions they pumped into it, it's too bad the film didn't capture the joy of the stage version. Gower Champion accomplished more with a company of fifty than Gene Kelly did with a cast of thousands.
|by Anonymous||reply 98||08/15/2011|
[quote]At this point in their lives, they each resembled nothing so much as a reluctantly aging cocktail waitress at the Topeka Ramada Inn. Their glory days--and they were both very talented--were long over
That's why they would have made perfect Dollies. Dolly Levi has gone to seed. She has nothing left but memories and old clothes that are going out of style.
Desperation is the energy that propels farce. Dolly is desperate to use the last of her fading looks to snare a husband before she's too old. Without the urgency that comes from racing against time, the story loses its steam.
|by Anonymous||reply 99||08/15/2011|
Why didn't they cast Mae West? At least we'd have been spared Streisand's impersonation of Miss West in the role and gotten the real thing instead.
|by Anonymous||reply 100||08/15/2011|
Geez, r99, it's Jerry Herman, not Weill-Brecht. You go for the tunes, the dancing, and a charming leading lady.
|by Anonymous||reply 101||08/15/2011|
Idiots like r78 and r101 keep insisting Hello Dolly is just a mindless musical but when intelligent posters like r99 explain what the film needed (and didn't get in Streisand's casting) they seem to forget the film was a dud.%0D %0D It's the very lightness and delicacy of the material that demands all the other elements to be handled properly.
|by Anonymous||reply 102||08/15/2011|
You're the idiot. What the film needed (as many have pointed out) was a decent director. And it is a "mindless" musical, but also a well-crafted, tuneful, delightful one. No one has ever had a catharsis when Dolly gets her man.
|by Anonymous||reply 103||08/15/2011|
DOLLY is a prime example of why the wide-screen format killed the musical. There was too much space to fill with empty choreography and prancing dancing. Not Michael Kidd's finest moment. OK, I do love the 'Put On Your Sunday Clothes' number (even as it is insanely over-the-top) as it is an homage to "The Trolley Song".%0D %0D Other things about DOLLY I love: the opening "Call On Dolly" concluding with the camera swinging around Streisand's enormous hat...."Love Is Only Love", where Kelly seems to do an homage to Alice Faye's "No Love, No Nothing". The luscious eye-popping DeLuxe color and the Hayton-Newman orchestrations.
|by Anonymous||reply 104||08/15/2011|
[quote]That's why they would have made perfect Dollies. Dolly Levi has gone to seed. She has nothing left but memories and old clothes that are going out of style.
The film should have opened with a scene of Ginger Rogers rooting through garbage cans looking for food and old mascara brushes.
|by Anonymous||reply 105||08/15/2011|
What a funny thread. Streisand knew she was miscast and has spoken a ton about it over the years and how she coped with the role. She has also made endless fun of herself for immitating Mae West- whose schtick she adored.%0D %0D This whole thing is a romp- Matthew is the weakest. Streisand is like a fire engine winking all over the place if you notice, singing the hell out of score. I am a fan and frankly when you see talent like that on display- either you like being in the tornado or you do not. But never will you hear a voice like that turning a score into something it is not remotely as good as.%0D %0D When she is off screen, it stops, when she returns, as Barbra playing at Dolly Levi- it's fun just to watch her mug and wink and work the accents and sing like no one else can or ever could- except perhaps Garland.
|by Anonymous||reply 106||08/15/2011|
"But never will you hear a voice like that turning a score into something it is not remotely as good as."
Where is the oh, dear troll when you need him?
|by Anonymous||reply 107||08/15/2011|
Mae West was furious when she saw the movie. She told the press that Streisand should stop impersonating her.
|by Anonymous||reply 108||08/15/2011|
R108, stupid Mae West, Barbra's imitating of West at the time was funny, and it was out of admiration. She conjured West the way Midler later conjured Sophie Tucker. It also stimulated more interest in West. Stupid Mae West. Also, I never heard West complain about it at the time.
|by Anonymous||reply 109||08/15/2011|
To be fair, in the time period of the movie, a 30 year old woman was over the hill. If she was unmarried, she was an old maid. Girls used to "come out" as teenagers. "Coming out" meant you were actively looking for a husband. %0D %0D A wealthy man of that era could have had his pick of 18 year old virgins. Even young girls were looking for a meal ticket. Vandergelder was looking for a thrifty housewife, not a young girl looking to spend money and live it up. That's why Dolly was even a possibility. Married couples with a 30 year age span between them were not uncommon then, if money was involved. Not too different from today.
|by Anonymous||reply 110||08/15/2011|
|by Anonymous||reply 111||08/15/2011|
[quote]Shirley McClaine would have made a terrific Dolly Levi, and she and Matthau would have played off each other very well. Unfortunately, she couldn't have sung the score.%0D %0D In those arrangements, maybe, but the original score was put over by Carol Channing, who was hardly a canary. Maclaine would've been fine.
|by Anonymous||reply 112||08/15/2011|
Mae West disliked all women, so her attacking Barbra was not out of the ordinary for her.
|by Anonymous||reply 113||08/15/2011|
At least we didn't get Kate Hepburn as Dolly. The mind boggles at the thought of Kate playing it as "A Connecticut Yankee in Yonkers".
|by Anonymous||reply 114||08/15/2011|
I have never seen an actress play Dolly as desperate. Streisand and Booth in the film versions don't. Channing didn't the many times I saw her on stage. Andrea Martin didn't play Dolly as desperate when I saw her in The Matchmaker either.
|by Anonymous||reply 115||08/15/2011|
I'm heartened to see that Hello Dolly is DL's favorite musical.
|by Anonymous||reply 116||08/15/2011|
[quote]It also stimulated more interest in West.
Really? How, exactly?
[quote]Stupid Mae West. Also, I never heard West complain about it at the time.
Then you must not have been reading the papers. At the time Dolly was released, Mae was very much in the press because she had just finished filming her "comeback" movie, "Myra Breckenridge."
|by Anonymous||reply 117||08/15/2011|
Oh, really, r 116?
|by Anonymous||reply 118||08/15/2011|
I still think Streisand's series of good-byes at the beginning of So Long Dearie is the funniest thing in the whole movie.
And I can't believe anyone is claiming that a show associated with Carol Fucking Channing requires subtlety
|by Anonymous||reply 119||08/15/2011|
Not subtlety - just the right actress. Streisand was the wrong actress.
|by Anonymous||reply 120||08/15/2011|
According to you, r120, but that is certainly not a consensus. Most people I know think the movie is only good when Barbra is onscreen.
In any case, "So Long, Dearie" is one of the most entertaining musical numbers Streisand ever put on film. "Before the Parade Passes By" is one of those iconic moments in the Streisand filmography, and "Hello, Dolly!" is so much fun, with Louis Armstrong, the dancing waiters, and that gorgeous gold dress.
|by Anonymous||reply 121||08/15/2011|
AS has been pointed out by others, Streisand has zero chemistry with Armstrong - she barely seems to know who he is, and he barely seems to know what he's doing there. That part of the "Hello, Dolly!" number is just embarrassing. The choreography is okay - probably better than any other number in the film - although Kidd kills the big pullback when they start singing again after the dance break.
The dress is gorgeous, though, and a really smart idea to not put her in red (as she is in the play).
"Parade" is fun for its sheer bigness - we'll never see the likes of that again without CGI'ed crowds and backgrounds - and So Long Dearie is fun but twisted from the way it's written to suit Streisand's "Don't Rain on My Parade" style.
|by Anonymous||reply 122||08/15/2011|
I hate musicals!!!
|by Anonymous||reply 123||08/15/2011|
I don't agree that Barbra and Louis had no chemistry. They liked each other very much. Barbra, who had immense respect for him, was very worried that Armstrong was being used by the filmmakers just to garner extra publicity. In the end, though, I think it's great that we actually have a moment captured onscreen of the two of them together. Barbra's awe of Armstrong's talent is clear as is his respect for her. I think it's a lovely moment, myself.
|by Anonymous||reply 124||08/15/2011|
Supposedly, Streisand thought Armstong was a cheap gimmick and was not happy about it.
But she ended up being in a good mood the day that was shot and enjoyed doing the scene.
|by Anonymous||reply 125||08/15/2011|
Why was Barbra better off in a gold dress than a red one? Just because the stage Dollys wore a red dress? There are other red dresses, you know!%0D %0D That particular metallic and beaded gold dress always seemed way over the top and frankly unaffordable by a woman of uncertain means.%0D %0D Oh yes, I know...it's only a musical, after all.
|by Anonymous||reply 126||08/15/2011|
A bit off-topic but...%0D %0D I can vouch for the fact that Hollywood Area queens went ballistic when "Oliver!" beat "Funny Girl" to the Best Picture Oscar.%0D %0D Such a fuss.%0D %0D Fun thread, even tho it gets repeated every few years.%0D %0D Did anyone mention "corn"?%0D %0D Just for the record, I disliked the movie. I never even watched it until it came out on VHS, as I couldn't envision anyone except Channing or Shirley Booth in the lead.%0D %0D I saw Carol Channing on closing night of the tour (in the 70's or 80's) in San Francisco. She did a very lengthy curtain call for "the home-town crowd."%0D %0D Later, in the 90's, I saw her opening night of the last tour - in Denver. At the curtain-call (huge audience response) she turned to the cast and said "I told you they'd love us."%0D %0D What a woman, warts and all! :-))%0D %0D Have a good nite.
|by Anonymous||reply 127||08/15/2011|
That gold beaded gown weighed a ton and Barbra had a heluva time dancing in it. It also made her look "hippy," in my opinion (and I am not the only one) and was not flattering to her. Debbie Reynolds owned the gown as part of her collection that was recently auctioned off.
|by Anonymous||reply 128||08/15/2011|
[quote]I have never seen an actress play Dolly as desperate
It's her situation that is desperate. It's not in the playing of the part. It's the back-story of the character. Dolly and her late husband lived high and frittered away all their money and now she has none. She does a little bit of everything to get by but one day she'll be too old to do fend for herself. She desperately NEEDS a man with money so she can enjoy her old age and help him enjoy his old age too. If she fails to snag Horace it's not likely she'll find another man who needs a woman like her to help him learn how to enjoy life.
Desperation is the essence of farce.
|by Anonymous||reply 129||08/16/2011|
Does Jerry Herman have a deal with DL that once every few months, either "Mame" or "Dolly" has to have its own thread debating the merits of the movie?
I would say by next February we'll be due for the next "Mame" thread - why was Lucy so awful? Why didn't Angela get to do it? Wasn't Lucy a bitch to have Madeline Kahn fired?
|by Anonymous||reply 130||08/16/2011|
[quote]Barbra, who had immense respect for him, was very worried that Armstrong was being used by the filmmakers just to garner extra publicity.
She was probably just pissed that they were bringing him in to sing what should have been HER number.
And it WAS just to garner extra publicity - he had the hit record, so he was in the movie. It was a really tacky moment - her instincts were right, and since she had no compunction about throwing her weight around that set, she should have put her foot down about the shoehorned "cameo" for Armstrong.
|by Anonymous||reply 131||08/16/2011|
Gee, r129, now explain to us the darker sub-text of Whoop-Up.
|by Anonymous||reply 132||08/16/2011|
Go back to listening to your ""Legally Blonde" cast album, r132.
|by Anonymous||reply 133||08/16/2011|
Barbra is also the only "watchable" aspect of On a Clear Day.... but it still doesn't make her performance very good nor does it save the movie.%0D %0D Why doesn't that film get the bi-annual DL treatment? It's far gayer than Dolly or Mame.
|by Anonymous||reply 134||08/16/2011|
Ha! Legally Blonde is one of the only cast albums I don't have!
|by Anonymous||reply 135||08/16/2011|
R128, she may have looked hippy in gold, but if they went with the red, she'd have looked like the side of a BARN.%0D %0D I believe Streisand had only a vague idea of who Louis Armstrong WAS aside from his hit single of "Hello Dolly." %0D %0D She was quoted as saying that using Armstrong was a "gimmick," yes, so? How about giving him the job in the movie? Does she ever think of anyone except herself?
|by Anonymous||reply 136||08/16/2011|
[quote]That gold beaded gown weighed a ton and Barbra had a heluva time dancing in it.%0D %0D Don't blame it on the dress. She could never dance. For christ's sake, at least admit that little flaw in your goddess.
|by Anonymous||reply 137||08/16/2011|
She was quoted as saying that using Armstrong was a "gimmick," yes, so? How about giving him the job in the movie? Does she ever think of anyone except herself%0D %0D Of course he was- she was not saying this to put him down but to acknowledge how he was being used as a beloved musician having a late life hit with the title song. By the way, she was a contracted actress for the film and had no creative or production power on this movie- or Funny Girl or Clear Day. She did the movie as part of a three picture deal (with Funny Girl) in order to become a movie star.
|by Anonymous||reply 138||08/16/2011|
"Hello, Dolly" is one of those filmed musicals like "The Pajama Game" and "Damn Yankees" and "1776" and the Rosalind Russell "Gypsy" that musical theater purists just can't stand. They certainly aren't definitive versions and deserve to be readapted until someone gets them just right as musicals and as cinema. But I enjoy watching them anyway. But then I enjoy watching "Star!" which even I will agree is neither a good musical or a good film.
|by Anonymous||reply 139||08/16/2011|
Sorry R129, I have never seen an actress, even Channing, play all that desperation even as subtext. In the musical version, Dolly discovers that she really wants Horace, not just his money, after the Dancing number and it is her lead in to Before the Parade Passes By which is one of the few human moments in the stage musical. But most actresses I have seen as Dolly pay the fact that Horace will be hers in a matter of fact way. Dolly is amusingly manipulative in the way I have seen it played.
R139, musical theater purists love the fim versions of Damn Yankees, Pajama Game and 1776 because they are faithful to the stage versions, include much of the original casts and were dire Ted by the original directors. I don't know any true musical theater fan who has ever eagerly awaited the often threatened Damn Yankees remake.
|by Anonymous||reply 140||08/16/2011|
Louis Armstrong was the best part of this mess.
|by Anonymous||reply 141||08/16/2011|
"Of course he was- she was not saying this to put him down"%0D %0D DUH. She was protecting the "integrity" of the film, LOL. I still say she knew very little about Louis.
|by Anonymous||reply 142||08/16/2011|
[quote] Armstrong was a "gimmick,"%0D %0D He was also a "gimmick" in "High Society" and did a good job as a gimmick in both.
|by Anonymous||reply 143||08/16/2011|
[quote] I enjoy watching "Star!" %0D %0D %0D Also produced in Todd-AO!
|by Anonymous||reply 144||08/16/2011|
Barbra looks fantastic in the Harmonia Gardens dance scene in HD. She's not an attractive woman but that dress, the mark-up and the feathers are amazing. She does look hippy - but that was the right body shape for the period. Those close-ups of Barbra on the stairs are ok - I know they were highly criticized at the time for their diva, self-indulgent quality.
I think the Michael Kidd choreography for the guys is too angular with the straight arms and kicking legs.
The curtains in the Harmonia Gardens bother me, too. They seem prissy and cheap.
|by Anonymous||reply 145||08/16/2011|
I thought Babs' four picture deal was with Ray Stark's production company, Rastar. She did "Funny Girl", "Owl and the Pussycat", and "The Way We Were" as part of this contract, but she refused to do the fourth film until Stark threatened her with a lawsuit. Which, of course, resulted in the mess that was "Funny Lady".
|by Anonymous||reply 146||08/16/2011|
What's that got to do with this movie????
|by Anonymous||reply 147||08/16/2011|
Louis Armstrong was far better, younger, and in much better health, in "High Society."%0D %0D He's also superb and used very well in a tiny part in the 1961 movie "Paris Blues" on TCM tonight:
|by Anonymous||reply 148||08/16/2011|
The Louis Armstrong 45 rpm record of "Hello, Dolly!" was the top-selling single in the USA of the 1960s.
Casting Barbra was as much of a gimmick as casting Louis.
|by Anonymous||reply 149||08/16/2011|
It seemed old and out-of-date as an art form and in casting (dated "stars) even as it came out. It reads like a cross between historical piece and a freak show now. There, I said it!
|by Anonymous||reply 150||08/16/2011|
That's because it should have been on a TV variety show, not in a film.%0D %0D Good one r149!
|by Anonymous||reply 151||08/16/2011|
Correct on both counts, r140.
|by Anonymous||reply 152||08/16/2011|
Barbra looks great in the gold dress. The color, and the feathers, really soften her. If she'd been in the traditional red, it would have made her look garish and ugly.
She was very well-dressed in "Dolly," to maximum effect.
In fact, the "Dolly" gowns were much more flattering to her than those little mini-skirts in "Clear Day."
|by Anonymous||reply 153||08/16/2011|
bump this broad
|by Anonymous||reply 154||08/16/2011|
How much longer till it's time for the next MAME thread?
|by Anonymous||reply 155||08/16/2011|
The Mame thread.
|by Anonymous||reply 156||08/16/2011|
No "Dolly" thread has ever died at less than 400 posts....it's shameful that no one has anything else to say.
|by Anonymous||reply 157||08/17/2011|
Am I the only one who enjoyed Barbra's Mae West schtick in the film? Most of the movie is a mess, but her scene with Matthau at the restaurant is a hoot.
|by Anonymous||reply 158||08/17/2011|
[quote]Am I the only one who enjoyed Barbra's Mae West schtick in the film?%0D %0D No, you're not the only one. There were five others. One in San Diego, two in Brooklyn, one in Jacksonville, NC, and one in Chicago.
|by Anonymous||reply 159||08/17/2011|
Did Mae West and Streisand get into a fist fight at a Hollywood party right after Dolly was released?
|by Anonymous||reply 160||08/17/2011|
Mae cut Babs with a shiv. They had to delay filming on "Clear Day" while her face healed.
|by Anonymous||reply 161||08/17/2011|
Pauline Kael, bless her, often a great critic, but often an inexplicable one, championed Babs in Dolly and Pussycat, where she's execrable.
|by Anonymous||reply 162||08/25/2011|
"I never understood how she can be completely accepted as both the 17 year old Fanny Brice and the 37 year old Fanny Brice at the end of Funny Girl but somehow her age in Hello Dolly becomes a HUGE issue. If she can be 37 year old Fanny in FG why can't she be 35-37 in HD?"
Because there's a huge difference between a role that ages from youth to middle-age in a biopic in a cinderella coming of age love story which the actress in question was born to play and originated to great acclaim on the one hand
and the very famous character of a middle-aged widow coming back into the prime of her life from the sidelines, "coming back where she belongs," that had already been associated in the public's imagination with the many beloved big name veteran show biz legends who had popularized it: Shirley Booth, Carol Channing, Pearl Bailey, Ethel Merman, Eve Arden, Dorothy Lamour, Betty Grable, Edie Adams, Martha Raye and Ginger Rogers, on the other
Especially when the actress in question decides to imitate Mae West in her performance.
|by Anonymous||reply 163||08/25/2011|
All of you... say what you want about the musical. The alltime greatest scene in films is Louis Armstrong and Streisand's duet. Loved it!!!
|by Anonymous||reply 164||07/11/2012|
Satchmo's appearance is exactly sixty seconds.
|by Anonymous||reply 165||07/11/2012|
R163 is right on target.
|by Anonymous||reply 166||07/11/2012|
Matthau made Streisand look a whole lot closer to pretty by comparison.
|by Anonymous||reply 167||07/11/2012|
Fuck off. I loved the movie and Streisand. The opening number JUST LEAVE EVERYTHING TO ME is so much better than that lame ass stop and start I PUT MY HAND UP MY ASS. But the big issue for me was who the hell was that no talent who was Irene Molloy? She was dubbed and acted like crap. I guess she was banging tap dancer Gene Kelly who directed it for shit.
|by Anonymous||reply 168||07/11/2012|
Had the movie been made ten years earlier, Roz Russell would have been a fabulous Dolly. Shirley MacLaine would have made a fun Dolly, and would have played well with Matthau. For Barbra, I think Jack Lemon would have been a better choice for Horace Vandergelder. He would have been funnier, he's more attractive, and I think they'd have had better chemistry. And Dolly doesn't have to be 38, does she? Dolly could have married at 18 or even 16 and been married ten or twelve years and still have only been thirty. I think Barbra is terrific in the part. The problem was the extremely weak direction and the co-starring of Matthau.
|by Anonymous||reply 169||07/11/2012|
R80, darling, it's "Finnegans Wake," not "Finnegan's Wake," for that matter!
|by Anonymous||reply 170||07/11/2012|
The choreography was more appalling than the rest of the direction. For Kelly, of all people, to have lines moving left and right across the bottom of the stage was unforgivable.
It might be noted that Shirley Booth was a musical star on Broadway. (Okay, she sang some songs -- but well. She had refinement.) She could have done the role.
|by Anonymous||reply 171||07/11/2012|
Maybe they'll remake this movie with Bette Midler. As Dolly, not Horace.
I'm also hoping that someone will finance Heather Mills' musical debut in Maim.
|by Anonymous||reply 172||07/11/2012|
Why do we have all these Dolly threads but never discuss South Pacific or Mame.
|by Anonymous||reply 173||07/16/2012|
I'm delighted to see that our Hello, Dolly! has become Datalounge's most beloved movie.
|by Anonymous||reply 174||07/16/2012|
For THAT reason he was the perfect Horace Vandegelder. Matthau and Streisand got on so badly that she must have relished every second of "So Long Dearie", especially that operatic "GOODBYE" intro. You can hear that she does.
I was so unhappy before I moved out of NYC that I called myself "more Horace Vandegelder than Walter Matthau".
|by Anonymous||reply 175||07/17/2012|
Attention NYC Queens!
This Sunday, July 22 at 2:30 pm!
Hello, Dolly! Gene Kelly, 1969 USA | 146 minutes
Restored 70mm print!
An extravagant cinematic interpretation of the Tony Award-winning Broadway musical by Jerry Herman and Michael Stewart, Hello, Dolly! is lavish and large. As Dolly Levi, Barbara Streisand plays a well-known matchmaker in 1890âs New York City who is supposed to help the rich and grumpy Horace Vandergelder (Walter Matthau) marry. Along the way, she not only unites other young couples, including Horaceâs niece, but also, unsurprisingly, herself. Throughout this highly colorful and resplendent film, the fluid camera glides and soars in a choreographed manner, seeming to dance itself. The musical numbers, choreographed by the brilliant Michael Kidd, have sensational energy and force. Director Gene Kelly staged âRibbons Down My Back, âIt Only Takes a Momentâ and the famous parade scene. Already experienced in the directing process with films like On the Town and Singinâ in the Rain, Kelly garnered a Golden Globe nomination for directing and a nod for Outstanding Directorial Achievement in a Feature Film from the Directorâs Guild of America. Nominated for seven Academy Awards including Best Picture.
Series: Invitation to the Dance: Gene Kelly @ 100
Venue: Walter Reade Theater, Lincoln Center
|by Anonymous||reply 176||07/17/2012|
Walter got the part because he was super hairy and hung. Ask his wife if she's still alive, which I doubt.
|by Anonymous||reply 177||07/17/2012|
Michael Crawford at 60 years old was not a very good Barnaby.
|by Anonymous||reply 178||07/17/2012|
From the character description of Horace Vandergelder, the part Matthau played:
Vandergelder is sixty years old and is described in the stage notes as "choleric, vain, and sly." He is stingy with money and rude to everyone he talks to. He is displeased with practically everything around him. He does not approve of the man his twenty-four-year-old niece intends to marry and so sends her away to ruin the engagement. He does not like the clerks who work at his hay, feed, and provisions store because he thinks that they should work more than fifteen hours a day, six days a week.
Vandergelder, a widower, plans to marry again, explaining to the audience in a soliloquy that a woman who marries into a household will keep house better than one who is hired to do so. He originally plans to marry Mrs. Molloy, but his interest in her is so feeble that he is willing to postpone his proposal when Dolly Levi tells him another woman is interested in him.
Throughout the play, other characters spend their time either trying to avoid Vandergelder because of his fearsome temper or plotting to get their hands on the money that he has hoarded by living a miserly existence. In the end, though, he becomes a warmer person. Dolly Levi tricks him into marrying her, and he goes along with it good-naturedly; he consents to the marriage of Ermengarde and Ambrose, which he had violently opposed in the first scene; and he agrees to make Barnaby a partner in his business. The sudden transformation implies that Vandergelder was a good-natured person all along but just did not know how to show his softer side.
Now, who would have been a BETTER choice than Walter Matthau?
|by Anonymous||reply 179||07/17/2012|
"You'll see ALL the show in TODD-AO!!"
|by Anonymous||reply 180||07/17/2012|
In an interview with Paul O'Grady of the BBC, Barbra talked about Louis Armstrong. She said that although making the film was not a great experience, she was happy to have spent whatever time she had with Louis on set. She found him to be an extremely nice man, and just being around him helped.
|by Anonymous||reply 181||07/24/2012|
Angela Lansbury as Dolly would have coaxed the Blues right of Satchmo's horn.
|by Anonymous||reply 182||07/24/2012|
Somebody, anybody, who could sing R179.
|by Anonymous||reply 183||07/24/2012|
[quote]Now, who would have been a BETTER choice than Walter Matthau?
|by Anonymous||reply 184||07/24/2012|
R184, it's a very good suggestion, but I'm pretty confident that Gordon MacRae was down at the bottom of a whiskey bottle at the time. How fitting it would be, though, for him to star in the movie musical that killed the old style movie musical -- or at least served as the obituary.
("Mame" doesn't count, because it was DOA, a misguided vehicle for a TV star)
|by Anonymous||reply 185||07/25/2012|
Why not Robert Preston?
|by Anonymous||reply 186||07/25/2012|
Even as a mere child the extended dance sequences with the waiters embarassed me. Too queeny to be believed, and self indulgent.
Other than that, I kind of love this movie. They should've cut Ribbons Down My Back- almost nobody can make that song interesting. Oh and they could have tried to do something about the enormous gap between songs in the first quarter of the film.
I found Michael Crawford to be strangely hot. Even moreso in "A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum". Am I alone in this?
|by Anonymous||reply 187||07/25/2012|
Frank Sinatra would have made a great Horace.
|by Anonymous||reply 188||07/25/2012|
Robert Preston is a great idea. That would have been a memorable pairing.
|by Anonymous||reply 189||07/25/2012|
While Robert Preston would have been great in the part, he would have needed a decent Dolly for the female lead.
|by Anonymous||reply 190||07/27/2012|
Almost afraid to post this, because I found her so thoroughly revolting much of the time, but I saw Robert Preston and Mary Martin in "I Do, I Do," and even to a child (I was one, really!) their chemistry seemed obvious. I think that in 68 or 69 she could have been a terrific (if not very photogenic) Dolly.
|by Anonymous||reply 191||07/27/2012|
[quote]I found Michael Crawford to be strangely hot...Am I alone in this?
You need to ask?
|by Anonymous||reply 192||07/27/2012|
[quote]I found Michael Crawford to be strangely hot.
If you're into "strange" then you're at the right place but he was far from hot.
|by Anonymous||reply 193||07/27/2012|
Can we discuss Best Little Whorehouse in Texas for once? We seem to pick over Hello, Dolly!, Gypsy, or Mame, every other week.
|by Anonymous||reply 194||07/27/2012|
[quote]Can we discuss Best Little Whorehouse in Texas for once?
Why don't you start a thread on it, r194?
|by Anonymous||reply 195||07/27/2012|
|by Anonymous||reply 196||02/10/2013|
I could see finding Barnaby hot, but never Michael Crawford (or worse, Tommy Tune).
|by Anonymous||reply 197||02/10/2013|
There can never be enough threads about Hello Dolly
|by Anonymous||reply 198||02/10/2013|
You know how many of us have that ONE guy who we are inexplicably sexually attracted to?
Well, I would have totally let Walter Matthau(at least the way he looked in this movie) fuck my butt into 1970 had he been into it.
Must be the sideburns.
|by Anonymous||reply 199||02/10/2013|
r199, I cannot think of a man I would less want to fuck than Walter Matthau at any age.
|by Anonymous||reply 200||02/10/2013|
[quote]I found Michael Crawford to be strangely hot.
I found Michael Crawford to be strangely awful in that role.
|by Anonymous||reply 201||02/10/2013|
It would be nice if they could use some CGI process to remove a few hundred extras from most of the scenes. Sometimes less can be better.
|by Anonymous||reply 202||05/17/2013|
Was Gower Champion trying for some world record for the number of extras in a musical scene?
|by Anonymous||reply 203||05/18/2013|
This video of Carol Channing and cast performing Hello Dolly! at the White House is a historical gem. Enjoy...
|by Anonymous||reply 204||05/18/2013|
It's on TCM right now.
|by Anonymous||reply 205||07/29/2013|
Michael Crawford's whole manner in that movie - his way of speaking, and singing, and moving - I find completely repulsive, sexually. Like, there are women I think I find more sexually attractive than Michael Crawford in that movie (and I'm 100% homo!)
|by Anonymous||reply 206||07/30/2013|
R178 What the hell kind of name is Barnaby????? Stupid stupid name.
|by Anonymous||reply 207||07/30/2013|
I've never really understood the hate for this film. I found it pretty entertaining in an old fashioned way. It's like comfort food. It just happened to be released at the wrong time. Musicals were already dead in the late 60's. Barbra might have been too young, but she sang the shit out of the score and did a great job anyway.
Another surprisingly good one that was released around the same time was Fosse's Sweet Charity with Shirley MacLaine. She's quite good in the film. Surprised no one's tried to remake that one. Great score!
|by Anonymous||reply 208||07/30/2013|
Comes from St. Barnabas.
|by Anonymous||reply 209||07/30/2013|
r203- I'm not sure what Gower Champion's motives were for using so many extras since Gene Kelly directed the film.
|by Anonymous||reply 210||07/30/2013|
Was matthau a alcoholic? He had such an alcoholic face.
|by Anonymous||reply 211||07/30/2013|
Danny Lockin was picked up in a gay bar in L.A. and brutally murdered. Many people think his murder was part of a snuff film.
|by Anonymous||reply 212||07/30/2013|
Any actor other than Matthau would've been better looking than Streisand, and she never would've allowed it. I like Louis Armstrong, but jeez louise, he was on film for what, 90 seconds? He got thrown a bone, I'm happy for him,so why did Streisand wax so rhapsodically about him?
|by Anonymous||reply 213||07/30/2013|
Dolly is a very heavy and boring film, and i like musicals;
Give me Easter Parade any time of day.
|by Anonymous||reply 214||07/30/2013|
Horace Vandegelder isn't supposed to be an attractive man.
And Babs has played with many actors far prettier than she.
|by Anonymous||reply 215||07/30/2013|
Too bad that can't rework it with some type of CGI to eliminate about 2,000 extras from the production numbers.
|by Anonymous||reply 216||07/30/2013|
R213 So was Jay Eglin.
|by Anonymous||reply 217||08/10/2013|
Didn't Walter Matthau make Babs look pretty by comparison?
|by Anonymous||reply 218||08/10/2013|