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Hello Dolly

Ugh, why did they pick Walter Matthau for the male lead? He was so ugly and always looked like an old man, even when he was young.

by Anonymousreply 21908/10/2013

Sorry to hijack your thread but could you open a thread about ELLEN PAGE's outing? It makes quite the round on the Internet. ONTD is talking about etc.

by Anonymousreply 108/11/2011

Is anyone surprised about Ellen Page. She's gives off a baby dyke vibe.

by Anonymousreply 208/11/2011

Elaine Paige is gay?

by Anonymousreply 508/11/2011

Yeah the Ellen PAge thread sounds like fun. Do it OP!

by Anonymousreply 608/11/2011

What on earth are you talking about, r3? "Vandergelder" is Dutch, NOT German (if he'd been of german ancestry it would have been "von").

That said, Walter Matthau was just awful casting for the part of Horace. While he was the right age for the part (Horace is not a young man, and Dolly is actually a good twenty years older than Streisand was when the movie was made), he couldn't sing. Odd for a musical. And on top of that, he loathed and despised Barbra Streisand, and it shows. There is just NO chemistry between the two of them, no matter how good actors they might have been.

by Anonymousreply 708/11/2011

Matthau killed Hello Dolly whenever he was on the screen. Who do we blame? Kelly? Barbra? Who hired him? Did you know the cute little blond guy was gay and was murdered?

by Anonymousreply 808/11/2011

Why didn't Kelly play Vandergelder?

by Anonymousreply 908/11/2011

[quote]he couldn't sing. Odd for a musical.%0D %0D Strange how that happens. Just sayin.

by Anonymousreply 1008/11/2011

Please. The role of Vandergelder was written for David Burns, who wasn't much of a singer himself - which is why the character doesn't do any of the legit singing in the show.

And Matthau didn't ruin Dolly - the egregious miscasting of Streisand did that. Too young and completely wrong for the part of Dolly Gallagher Levi (of course, they had to cut out her middle name to accommodate Streisand).

by Anonymousreply 1108/11/2011

Sorry, Charlie! I think she was superb in the role, miscast but superb. What a glamorous film that is much better appreciated today than when it first came out. It's rated 4 and 1/2 stars on cable these days.

by Anonymousreply 1208/11/2011

Hello, Dolly is one of the most beloved film musicals of all time, and it was nominated for Best Picture.

Streisand won't speak of it to this day.

Carol Channing tried to commit suicide when Streisand got the role.

by Anonymousreply 1308/11/2011

I didn't know Walter Matthau hated Barbra Streisand. Why?

by Anonymousreply 1408/11/2011

It was a huge financial flop. Because of the deal they had with Merrick - that it couldn't be released until it closed in NY - they had to delay the release a year.

The nomination for Best Picture was derided by most critics at the time as undeserved.

by Anonymousreply 1508/11/2011

Everybody loves Hello, Dolly. The hatred for this movie is contained to DL.

by Anonymousreply 1608/11/2011

Streisand was a total bitch on the "Hello, Dolly!" set, just as she had been on "Funny Girl."

The difference is that she knew "Funny Girl" inside and out. That wasn't the case with Dolly, and Matthau grew tired of her throwing her weight around with Gene Kelly and Michael Kidd, both experience makers of movie musicals.

by Anonymousreply 1708/11/2011

[quote]The hatred for this movie is contained to DL.%0D %0D The HATE TROLL is back at r16. She's unable to comprehend the meaning of "dislike."

by Anonymousreply 1808/11/2011

[quote]Miss Streisand's obvious youth and real sexuality obliterated any sense of nostalgia in the "Hello, Dolly!" number and add a curious ambiguity to other aspects of the role, including her speeches directed to Mr. Levi, her late husband. (I had the odd feeling that she must have been married to him at the age of 8 and lost him at 10). The star, a fine if limited comedienne, impersonates Dolly as a teen-age Mae West, circling around the role and finding laughs occasionally, but never quite committing herself to it.

That's the NY Times review.

by Anonymousreply 1908/11/2011

Let's not forget young Michael Crawford, who later on went to bigger fame as "The Phantom of the Opera". Couldn't believe it was the same guy!

by Anonymousreply 2008/11/2011

OP, you're crazy. Obviously you have never seen Walter when he was young.

by Anonymousreply 2108/11/2011

R20, that paradox inspired one of Forbidden Broadway's funniest numbers, "Put on Your Phony Voice."

by Anonymousreply 2208/11/2011

Mae West got very upset at Streisand, who she thought was copying her in Hello, Dolly.

by Anonymousreply 2308/11/2011

No one knew how good or bad she was on film when Dolly was in production because Funny Girl hadn't been released yet. %0D %0D She was The Star of Dolly, "a singer trying to be an actress." She had opinions, she was fussy and bitchy, and she acted like a star. Matthau couildn't handle it. That's why he hated her.%0D %0D I can't stand the movie, so it doesn't matter to me.

by Anonymousreply 2408/12/2011

Streisand may have been miscast, but the movie died whenever she was off-screen.

by Anonymousreply 2508/12/2011

One didn't notice, though, r25, because it was also dead when she was onscreen.

She was dreadful in the role, and miscast, and arrogant - but it WAS Hello, Dolly!, so it probably would have sucked no matter who did it.

by Anonymousreply 2608/12/2011

Gene Kelly was horrified that Carol Channing had beat out Barbra for the Tony that year. He did not appreciate Carol at all and he felt in general that the Broadway community was stuffy and rewarding the wrong people. It was a statement when he cast Barbra in the film. Walter was an old friend. Barbra did become friends with Michael Crawford during the shoot as they were the same age and had young children.

At the time it may have seemed inappropriate age casting with Barbra, but in hind sight the fact that she looked the same for over twenty odd years, thanks to her good skin and great bone structure, she could have been in her forties and she'd have looked the same. She doesn't read 28 in the film.

Walter was bad casting. And yes he did hate the way she challenged Michael Kidd and Gene Kelly.

by Anonymousreply 2708/12/2011

She was quoted as saying to someone "I'm being directed by a tap dancer!" Can you imagine? Gene had directed On The Town and the musical numbers in the greatest musical of all time: Singin' In The Rain, and Babs thought she had the wrong director.

Walter eventually became a friend and attended some of her later concerts.

by Anonymousreply 2808/12/2011

[quote]She doesn't read 28 in the film.

Right. She read even younger (She was 25 when filming of "Dolly" began - turned 26 two weeks into it).

Dolly Gallagher Levi is a middle-aged woman who has been a widow for many years and who has withdrawn herself from life and old friends and wants to be a part of it again(that's the point of "Before the Parade Passes By" and the title song).

Streisand was so wrong she distorted the piece completely to try to make it work, and it still didn't. Because she couldn't pull it off. It didn't matter that she's not a great actress, no one of that age could have pulled it off.

And I don't believe Gene Kelly was so ungentlemanly about Carol Channing. Don't believe he was "horrified" that Channing took the Tony.

by Anonymousreply 2908/12/2011

Oh please, r27, Gene Kelly would have taken anything he could have gotten to direct by 1968. He was directing the biggest Bway musical of the 1960s with the biggest musical star of the 1960s. And the film was staffed by loads of MGM has-beens. Such as Roger Edens and Lena Horne's drunken gay ex-husband and Dolly musical director.%0D %0D "She was quoted as saying to someone "I'm being directed by a tap dancer!" Can you imagine?"%0D %0D Arthur Laurents quotes Streisand as saying that in his autobio, r28. Laurents hated Gene Kelly, he could have made it up. Then again, no one said Streisand wasn't ignorant.

by Anonymousreply 3008/12/2011

They probably went with Matthau because at the time he was considered a big box office draw. The producers may have been hoping that he would draw an audience that Streisand could not.

by Anonymousreply 3108/12/2011

Matthau a BIG BOX OFFICE draw??? LOL. Guess it was The Odd Couple, hmmmm?

by Anonymousreply 3208/12/2011

R28: Streisand was wrong in the part, but she was right about being directed by a tap dancer. The direction in "Hello Dolly" is moribund.

But "Hello Dolly" is one of the stupidest musicals ever written. There is no story.

by Anonymousreply 3308/12/2011

Yes the Odd Couple and the Fortune Cookie were big hits and came out just prior to Hello Dolly

by Anonymousreply 3408/12/2011

Carol Matthau, who was the inspiration for Capote's Holly Golightly character in Breakfast at Tiffany's, was a HUGE fan of Streisand's, and she is credited for bringing them back together again. Barbra and Carol became good friends over the years.

by Anonymousreply 3608/12/2011

I remember reading a long time ago about the friction between Barbra and Walter. Then just a few days later, I was watching that HBO special with Barbra from her Malibu place that was considered her big comeback to live performing.

Before she made her fantastic entrance through the smoke machine, they had shown the loads of celebrities who had made it to the performance. There was Bette and Sally Field and Sheena Easton and oh look, there in the front row, all smiles and shaking hands ...Walter Matthau! Funny, I thought, he hates her but I guess he is still a fan.

by Anonymousreply 3708/12/2011

True, R37. It may disappoint her distractors to know that she doesn't have any lifelong enemies, which is very rare for Hollywood. She personally buried the hatchet with anyone who she might have had tension with earlier on in her career.

Barbra even called up Lainie Kazan a few years ago and asked how she was doing. Lainie was so touched by Barbra's phone call that she cried.

by Anonymousreply 3808/12/2011

I love the Barbra freaks. They spin such bizarre fantasies about her.

by Anonymousreply 3908/12/2011

It was a dated piece of middle-brow junk from the get-go, not some hallowed theater classic. %0D %0D Do you think anyone would have paid to see close-ups of Carol Channing's head for two hours? Shirley Jones'? Florence Henderson's?

by Anonymousreply 4008/12/2011

R38: Frankly, it would have meant more if she hadn't called collect.

by Anonymousreply 4108/12/2011

Matthau is pretty traditional casting for Horace in both the musical and the original play. Streisand was not traditional casting but she is a star, is funny and sings the score better than anyone else who has played it.

by Anonymousreply 4208/12/2011

R42: NAILED IT! and in just 2 sentences! BRAVO!

by Anonymousreply 4308/12/2011

R42 I agree. But I think Babs is excellent as Dolly Levi. I first saw it when I was 8, so I think only as Babs as Dolly. Though as an adult I realize she is miscasted. She is the best miscast in the world. You can't take your eyes off her. The screen comes alive with her real, and original self.%0D %0D And the great Louis Armstrong has a great bit.

by Anonymousreply 4408/12/2011

Elizabeth Taylor sums it all up right here....

by Anonymousreply 4508/12/2011

Are any of you actors who have been cast in the lead of a show that was clearly going to be crap from Jump Street? It's hell.

From the beginning, Gene Kelly was a lousy director, Matthau was a renowned depressed misanthrope with contempt for his role, the supporting cast was largely untalented and deadly dull, the screenplay was stodgy interminable and while all expectations were on Streisand to save it, all hopes were that she would fail.

There are about 20 minutes of the movie that work and they're all Barbra's and/or Luis Armstrong's. If Barbra had to be a royal bitch to get that 20 minutes, it's more than they would have got without her.

by Anonymousreply 4608/12/2011

Pauline Kael loved Barbra as Dolly, and she was not always a fan.

by Anonymousreply 4708/12/2011

first off, Horace was NOT written for David Burns. He auditioned and got the part and by all accounts, was splendid. And he sings like a fog horn.

Matthau was ideal casting. The role is supposed to be a rascaly curmudgeon. No, he doesn't sing like Howard Keel, but name me one Horace who does. He has zero chemistry with Streisand, but then, they didn't exactly have Billy Wilder as a director.

Kelly did not cast Babs. The studio did. He was lucky to get the gig, as his directing career, post-Stanley Donen was in the tank. And Donen turned it down, as did Gower Champion, who was desperate to have a career as a film director.

by Anonymousreply 4808/12/2011

Except that David Burns was adorable; Matthau was repellent.

by Anonymousreply 4908/12/2011

Wasn't one of the actors in this film murdered by a trick in the 1970's? I think it was the little blonde twink.

by Anonymousreply 5008/12/2011

r48: Donen would have been SO superior to Kelly.

by Anonymousreply 5108/12/2011

No, he died of AIDS. You might be thinking of Sal Mineo.

by Anonymousreply 5208/12/2011

Danny Lockin (Barnaby) was killed one night when he went home with a drunk from a bar. The guy flipped out and stabbed Danny 100 times. He bled out on the guys floor and the guy called the police claiming a robbery. Police found pornographic/torture materials in the guys house and yet he only served a couple of years in prison.

by Anonymousreply 5308/12/2011

The "kissy-kissy" Hollywood phoniness in the clip at r45 is hilarious!

by Anonymousreply 5408/13/2011

[quote]Do you think anyone would have paid to see close-ups of Carol Channing's head for two hours? Shirley Jones'? Florence Henderson's? LOL--Do you think they paid to see Barbra's? The film was considered a big flop. It cost $25 million to make and only cleared $13 million at the box office.

by Anonymousreply 5508/13/2011

Roz Russell should have played Dolly Levi in the film.

by Anonymousreply 5608/13/2011

In the youth-oriented world of Hollywood at the time, Roz Russell wouldn't have sold three tickets.

by Anonymousreply 5708/13/2011

"To answer your question, OP, they needed a Jewish leading man opposite Barbra Streisand."

WTF? Omar Sharif, Robert Redford - who played opposite Barbra Streisand, as both her Jewish and non-Jewish husbands, shortly before and after Funny Girl, both not Jewish. Anne Bancroft and Katharikne Ross who played opposite Dusting Hoffman in The Graduate - not Jewish. Carrie Snodgress who played Richard Benjamin's wife in Diary of a Mad Housewife - not Jewish. Ali McGraw who played Richard Benjamin's Jewish girlfriend in Goodbye Columbus - not Jewish.

And then there's Woody Allen who spent the entire period in question playing opposite Diane Keaton.

And many years earlier than that. Charlie Chaplin and Paulette Goddard. Charles Boyer and Hedy Lamar. Leslie Howard and Olivia De Haviland. John Garfield and Lana Turner. John Garfield and Joan Crawford. The history of Jews playing opposite non-Jews in Hollywood is quite old.

I think your theory needs some work.

Now to answer OP's question. Matthau plays opposite Barbra because Matthau was Hollywoods most bankable grouch. Horace Vandergelder is a grouch.

Matthau's being older and not particularly attractive are perfectly right for Horace. Barbra was, famously, not particularly attractive, it might be noted, so it's not surprising that handsome was not a quality they were hellbent on finding in Horace.

Finally, the question is not why Horace Vandergelder, a middle aged man, was played by a middle aged man.

The question is why Dolly Gallagher Levy, a middle-aged woman, was played by a woman in her 20s.

by Anonymousreply 5808/13/2011

The role of Vandergelder is supposed to be an older man -- he is widowed and raising a teenage niece (Ermengarde), and is not looking for love or a sexual partner when he engages Dolly LEvi to find him a wife -- he's looking for a cook and maid whom he doesn't have to pay! He is a cynical cheapskate. He is the musical theatre's equivalent to W.C. Fields. Matthau was a terrific choice -- if he'd been cast against an age- appropriate Dolly. I'm not sure who the age-appropriate character actor for Streisand might have been at the time.

by Anonymousreply 5908/13/2011

It was produced in Todd-AO!!!%0D %0D "You'll see ALL the show in Todd-AO!"

by Anonymousreply 6008/13/2011

R-50 is right - he was murdered - very sad story - yes it was a trick.

by Anonymousreply 6108/13/2011

[quote] I'm not sure who the age-appropriate character actor for Streisand might have been at the time.

Steve McQueen IS Horace Vandergelder!

by Anonymousreply 6208/13/2011

LOL, r38. Typical delusional Streisand fan.%0D %0D %0D "Pauline Kael loved Barbra as Dolly, and she was not always a fan."%0D %0D Bull. Kael was positively QUEER for Streisand from day one.

by Anonymousreply 6308/13/2011

All these posts and no mention of "The Matchmaker" (play and movie). Paul Ford was a wonderful Vandergelder and Shirley Booth the perfect Dolly (just as perfect as Carol Channing). And what a cast - Shirley MacLaine, Robert Morse, Anthony Perkins, Wallace Ford.

by Anonymousreply 6408/13/2011

What is funny about the R45 link (other than the fake, kissy-poo show biz BS) is that even thought Elizabeth Taylor is complimenting Streisand she is doing it in a rather backhanded way.

She is basically saying, "Barbra, you used to be such an icy, unapproachable bitch that even I, one of the biggest stars in the history of Hollywood, felt as if I couldn't come up to you at a party without you snapping at me for blocking your light or addressing your bad side. Now that you are regularly getting pounded by Brolin's enormous dick, you are so much nicer. Kisses!"

by Anonymousreply 6508/13/2011

I can never get over how many threads have been given to the film version of "Hello, Dolly!" over the years on DL. It's a terrible film. But though I am not a Streisand fan (that kissy-poo nonsense Elizabeth Taylor indulges in at r45 nauseates me, and reminds me of that appalling moment at the Oscars fifteen years ago when she referred to the recently deceased Audrey Hepburn as "dear departed Audrey"--gag!), I think the best thing in the movie is Streisand.

There really was no one else at the time who could have played the part. Carol Channing just never translates well onto film because, like Zero Mostel, she always projects too insanely broadly and doesn't tone herself down for the camera. And though Angela Lansbury probably would have been a better choice overall, even though the film did flop it would have probably done worse with Lansbury since she was considered big film box office at the time. (Neother Shirley Jones nor Julie Andrews would have been right for the part, and Carol Burnett was not considered a big film star at the time and was the same age roughly as Streisand.) Streisand does come across as a woman in her thirties in "Hello Dolly!," and since she's going to marry Horace for his money, the age disparity between Streisand and Matthau doesn't bother me so much. It is conceivable she married her first husband in her twenties and lost him early and is looking to marry again.

About the only humor in the entire film occurs from Streisand's Mae West-like line deliveries, and so I appreciate them because otherwise the thing would be just be deadly. The problem with the film is not Streisand nor Matthau: it's the cutesiness of everything else. The musical already suffered greatly from that bane of so many American musicals (OKLAHOMA!, THE MUSIC MAN, etc.), which is rose-colored nostalgia, and the writers of the book greatly amplified it with such awful ideas as repeatedly referring to Vandergelder as "the celebrated half-a-millionaire" (has that line ever made anyone laugh? even once?). And Kelly has everyone SMILE BIG ALL THE TIME in all his dance numbers which is so unbelievably cheesy, and the supporting cast consists of the cheesiest, phoniest actors I can think of, each projecting as big as Carol Channing herself: Michael Crawford, Tommy Tune, E. J. Peaker, Joyce Ames, and the horrible Marianne McAndrew as Irene Molloy. They all roll their eyes when they deliver their lines and mince unconscionably when they dance... when you watch the film you just keep waiting for Streisand to come back to cut the treacle a little bit. The only other pleasure in the whole film are the multiple shots of Danny Lockin's ass: he's as sugary and as goggly-eyed as the rest of the supporting cast but as least he had a great butt.

by Anonymousreply 6608/13/2011

There's Louis Armstrong and Barbra's moment together, and there's the rest of it, which you can pitch into the garbage.

by Anonymousreply 6708/13/2011

You're the asshole, r63. Read the review of Funny Lady (among others). In FL, she called her "no longer human; she's like a bitchy female impersonator imitating Barbra Streisand."

by Anonymousreply 6808/13/2011

Ironically, Barbra could be a perfect Dolly today at age 70-whatever. %0D %0D But of course, now she's going the miscasting route in the other direction as the 40-something Rose in Gypsy.

by Anonymousreply 6908/13/2011

I couldn't stand it anymore and am watching this trainwreck as we speak. I saw it when it first came out and hadn't seen it since.%0D %0D What a mess. Overblown, interminably long and ridiculous.%0D %0D I love Barbra but she really does suck in this.%0D Horribly miscast. Matthau is only slightly better but the two of them with their Brooklyn accents are just awful on the whole. Don't even start me on everyone else. The direction, script, choreography...it's all just terrible.%0D %0D It's so bad we're actually enjoying it.

by Anonymousreply 7008/13/2011

Though credited with the whole mess, Irene Sharaff just designed Barbra's costumes. Her magic yardstick didn't touch Marianne McAndrew or EJ Peaker.

by Anonymousreply 7108/13/2011

[quote]You're the asshole, R63. Read the review of Funny Lady (among others). In FL, she called her "no longer human; she's like a bitchy female impersonator imitating Barbra Streisand."%0D %0D R68 AKA "Do your research, queen" - I'm not R63, but I want to defend him by saying Funny Lady came later on in her career, and that Kael did in fact love Streisand in her early movies.%0D %0D Re Funny Girl: "Barbra arrives on the screen, in Funny Girl, when the movies are in desperate need of her. The timing is perfect."%0D %0D Re The Owl and the Pussycat: "Though she doesn't sing in this picture, she's still a singing actress; she makes her lines funny musically, and she can ring more changes on a line than anybody since W.C. Fields."%0D %0D re The Way We Were: [H]er sass is defensive and aggressive in the same breath. But it's part of her gradual conquest of the movie public that this won't put people off. Even the unflattering photography and the forties makeup . . . don't damage her."

by Anonymousreply 7208/13/2011

I never understood how she can be completely accepted as both the 17 year old Fanny Brice and the 37 year old Fanny Brice at the end of Funny Girl but somehow her age in Hello Dolly becomes a HUGE issue. If she can be 37 year old Fanny in FG why can't she be 35-37 in HD?

Since when are people so married to this HD source material?

She read as a pushy but charming New Yorker. It's essential that the character be incredibly pushy, secure in her talents, yet amusing and able to switch gears at a moments notice. The character is persuasive and has incredible perseverance. That's what's important.

She was all of this. And she sang that score better than anyone before or after.

As for the show itself, well it ain't Sondheim. It's a confection, a nostalgic farcical bon bon. Silly and colorful and mindless and fun.

As for the source material, Wilder didn't create Dolly. She was a minor character in an old English play which he adapted for a farce which flopped and then he readapted it in order to expand on the Dolly character which was the character that was most successful in his adapted flop.

If he could expand on the character than why can't anyone else?

by Anonymousreply 7308/13/2011

[quote]Since when are people so married to this HD source material?

It's not a question of being married to the source material.

It's that the source material is farce. Farce deals in types. If you alter the types you alter the purpose of the farce.

The age issue is important because the characters' ages are relevant to their roles. Horace and Dolly are OLDER. They are "over the hill." It's 1890, there's no Viagra and Horace has a limp old dick. Dolly doesn't care. She doesn't want sex, she wants security. Horace is a rich old miser who doesn't know how to enjoy his money. Dolly will teach him how to have fun and they will live happily for a while until they die.

Irene is a young widow. She's not a virgin, She had a husband, she knows what sex is and she wants more. Horace can't give it to her. That's why Dolly is helping her by NOT letting her trade away a second chance at Young Love and good sex and settling for an impotent old fart with money.

Cornelius is a 28-year-old virgin. He needs an experienced woman to show him the ropes. He marries the young widow and they have a happy sex life that makes up for not having lots of money.

If Dolly and Irene are the same age then Horace might just as well marry Irene. Dolly ends up looking like a double-crossing money-grubber to insert herself between her clients.

Matthau was well cast as Horace but they should have aged him UP not down. They should have cast Betty Grable or Ginger Rogers as Dolly. If they had anticipated the "nostalgia craze" that struck just after this film was made they might have had a big hit by hiring one of those old-time movie queens in the title role. It might have even been a good movie.

by Anonymousreply 7408/14/2011

Ooh, good idea, r74. And both Rogers and Grable played Dolly onstage. Grable would have been warmer as Dolly. Rogers was such a cold bitch.

Betty Grable as Dolly. Perfect. And they could have gone with Ann-Margret (who screen-tested) for Irene Molloy for a little extra box-office clout.

Matthau was fresh off his Oscar win - and Dolly was filmed well after "Odd Couple," - so he actually had some cachet by the time Dolly was released.

Betty Grable, Walter Matthau, Ann-Margret. Fabulous! If they still wanted clout, they could have gotten some hot young star as Cornelius.

The right casting can make a lot of difference, even with indifferent direction. Stick Angela Lansbury into that dreadful movie of Mame, and it immediately would have been 100% better, with the same dreadful direction and costumes.

by Anonymousreply 7508/14/2011

Another reason it's important to observe proper casting with respect to age is that the principle conflict of the plot is that a dowdy middle-aged woman has to convince a horny old goat that he doesn't want a pretty young bride.

by Anonymousreply 7608/14/2011

R72, how about reading the post in question. R68 was contending that Kael was not always a fan of Streisand, which proved to be true, especially later in her career. She zinged Streisand in "Star is Born" and "Main Event" like never before but also liked her in "All Night Long." Kael appreciated Streisand's talent early on, even revered it. But she was also able to write critically about her, especially after Bette Midler had taken over Streisand's place in her affections.

by Anonymousreply 7708/14/2011

"Irene is a young widow. She's not a virgin, She had a husband, she knows what sex is and she wants more. Horace can't give it to her. That's why Dolly is helping her by NOT letting her trade away a second chance at Young Love and good sex and settling for an impotent old fart with money."

Well thanks for your in depth analysis R74! And all this time I thought that Dolly was ruining Irene's chances with Horace by setting her up with Cornelius because SHE wanted Horace for herself. Thank you for illuminating me that Dolly is really a grand champion for young widows sex lives.

Get a fucking grip. The point of the story is that the Matchmaker is making a match for herself.

The age difference between her and Irene Malloy is irrelevant.

And Dolly IS a double crossing money grubber coming in between her and her clients in order to favor herself. The thing is that in a farce like this, all's well that ends well.

by Anonymousreply 7808/14/2011

r78 you better open yourself up to r74's interpretation because it's actually a perfect analysis of the play/musical's intentions when cast properly. %0D %0D Your notion that the ages of the women is irrelevant is utter post-modern laziness.

by Anonymousreply 7908/14/2011

"Your notion that the ages of the women is irrelevant is utter post-modern laziness."

It's a musical, darling, not "Finnegan's Wake".

by Anonymousreply 8008/14/2011

"There's Louis Armstrong and Barbra's moment together, and there's the rest of it, which you can pitch into the garbage."%0D %0D Contrary to what most people seem to think, I think Streisand and Armstrong is a disaster -- he looks like he's bout to keel over after his dramatic weight loss. And there's absolutely no chemistry or connection betweem them. %0D %0D "Carol Burnett was not considered a big film star at the time and was the same age roughly as Streisand"%0D %0D NINE years is hardly the "same age roughly."%0D %0D God, R74, how old are you? Eighteen?%0D %0D Thanks R72.

by Anonymousreply 8108/14/2011

AND "contending that 'Kael was not always a fan' of Streisand, which proved to be true, especially later in her career."%0D %0D Yeah -- ONLY after she began to put out shitty movie and lousy performances. %0D %0D The inference was that Kael loved Streisand in Dolly and she had "not always been a fan" -- had, past tense. As if Kael finally came around and liked Streisand in Hello Dolly. Total bullshit. Kael loved her until she started to deliver shit. The shit started with Funny Lady in 1975. Kael did like Yentl, somehow.

by Anonymousreply 8208/14/2011

Another thing you've got to remember is the film was released in 1969: the Age of Aquarius. Betty Grable or Ginger Rogers would have made the film seem even squarer than it already was.

by Anonymousreply 8308/14/2011

Oh yes, the movie was SO hip because of Streisand's presence. Grable or Rogers would have elevated the whole piece because they would have been RIGHT for it (although if Matthau though Streisand was a bitch, he would have really hated Rogers).

by Anonymousreply 8408/14/2011

If I may intervene, I did not say Kael "had always been a fan." I said she "was not always a fan," which was true, as r77 interpreted perfectly. Thanks, r77! I owe you a drink.

by Anonymousreply 8508/14/2011

This is a great thread.%0D %0D Another thing with HELLO, DOLLY: The country had changed so radically between 1964 and 1969. When Fox bought the property in 1964, nobody thought it would run as long as it did. Merrick kept it going (a la the Weisslers and CHICAGO) with "Old Hollywood" star Dollys and the Pearl Bailey - Cab Calloway African-American version. Fox was stuck as they could not release the film till after the show closed on Broadway.%0D %0D HELLO, DOLLY was a perfect splashy Broadway show for 1964 (and had it been made as as a film in 1964 with Doris Day might have been a smash), but by the late '60s it was a relic from another era. The HAIR film had the same problem...it was made at least ten years too late.

by Anonymousreply 8608/14/2011

I agree with r 81: Neither Satchmo and Streisand are really in the groove with each other.%0D %0D Armstrong most have gotten a HUGE fee (his recording of the song was a smash hit) - He got 'co-starring' billing and his time on screen is exactly one minute.

by Anonymousreply 8708/14/2011

I shudda played it on screen! Charisma was my middle name!! Especially on screen!!!

by Anonymousreply 8808/14/2011

R85 is NOT me.

by Anonymousreply 8908/14/2011

WHO is the false r85, pretending to be r63? I nominate r74 to get to the root of the mystery.

by Anonymousreply 9008/14/2011

Shirley McClaine would have made a terrific Dolly Levi, and she and Matthau would have played off each other very well. Unfortunately, she couldn't have sung the score.

by Anonymousreply 9108/14/2011

[quote]Grable or Rogers would have elevated the whole piece because they would have been RIGHT for it

At this point in their lives, they each resembled nothing so much as a reluctantly aging cocktail waitress at the Topeka Ramada Inn. Their glory days--and they were both very talented--were long over.

by Anonymousreply 9208/14/2011

Shirley McClaine = Shirley MacLaine%0D %0D Did you know that Merrick offered the stage role to Lena Horne in 1970? She didn't want it.

by Anonymousreply 9308/14/2011

Even Doris Day was a few years past her sell-by date by the mid-60s. I doubt that she would have sold a lot of tickets then, much less by 1969. %0D %0D And frankly, Shirley McLaine was in between her wacky ingenue roles and former-past-lives bitchy lady parts in 1964. Not good timing for her either.%0D %0D

by Anonymousreply 9408/14/2011

Shirley MacLaine could have sung the score as written. It was written for Carol Channing's character voice, not for a Streisand-type voice.

But MacLaine was only 34 when Dolly filmed - it wouldn't have been much of an improvement on age (although it would have been interesting, considering she played Irene Molloy in the movie of "The Matchmaker.")

by Anonymousreply 9508/15/2011

Grable as Dolly

by Anonymousreply 9608/15/2011

They should remake this with Katy Perry and Russell Brand as Dolly and Horace. Blockbuster, I tell you. Lines around the block.

by Anonymousreply 9708/15/2011

Considering all the fun but slightly tawdry period musicals Betty Grable made in the 30s and 40s, she must have been a wonderful Dolly.

With all the millions they pumped into it, it's too bad the film didn't capture the joy of the stage version. Gower Champion accomplished more with a company of fifty than Gene Kelly did with a cast of thousands.

by Anonymousreply 9808/15/2011

[quote]At this point in their lives, they each resembled nothing so much as a reluctantly aging cocktail waitress at the Topeka Ramada Inn. Their glory days--and they were both very talented--were long over

That's why they would have made perfect Dollies. Dolly Levi has gone to seed. She has nothing left but memories and old clothes that are going out of style.

Desperation is the energy that propels farce. Dolly is desperate to use the last of her fading looks to snare a husband before she's too old. Without the urgency that comes from racing against time, the story loses its steam.

by Anonymousreply 9908/15/2011

Why didn't they cast Mae West? At least we'd have been spared Streisand's impersonation of Miss West in the role and gotten the real thing instead.

by Anonymousreply 10008/15/2011

Geez, r99, it's Jerry Herman, not Weill-Brecht. You go for the tunes, the dancing, and a charming leading lady.

by Anonymousreply 10108/15/2011

Idiots like r78 and r101 keep insisting Hello Dolly is just a mindless musical but when intelligent posters like r99 explain what the film needed (and didn't get in Streisand's casting) they seem to forget the film was a dud.%0D %0D It's the very lightness and delicacy of the material that demands all the other elements to be handled properly.

by Anonymousreply 10208/15/2011

You're the idiot. What the film needed (as many have pointed out) was a decent director. And it is a "mindless" musical, but also a well-crafted, tuneful, delightful one. No one has ever had a catharsis when Dolly gets her man.

by Anonymousreply 10308/15/2011

DOLLY is a prime example of why the wide-screen format killed the musical. There was too much space to fill with empty choreography and prancing dancing. Not Michael Kidd's finest moment. OK, I do love the 'Put On Your Sunday Clothes' number (even as it is insanely over-the-top) as it is an homage to "The Trolley Song".%0D %0D Other things about DOLLY I love: the opening "Call On Dolly" concluding with the camera swinging around Streisand's enormous hat...."Love Is Only Love", where Kelly seems to do an homage to Alice Faye's "No Love, No Nothing". The luscious eye-popping DeLuxe color and the Hayton-Newman orchestrations.

by Anonymousreply 10408/15/2011

[quote]That's why they would have made perfect Dollies. Dolly Levi has gone to seed. She has nothing left but memories and old clothes that are going out of style.

The film should have opened with a scene of Ginger Rogers rooting through garbage cans looking for food and old mascara brushes.

by Anonymousreply 10508/15/2011

What a funny thread. Streisand knew she was miscast and has spoken a ton about it over the years and how she coped with the role. She has also made endless fun of herself for immitating Mae West- whose schtick she adored.%0D %0D This whole thing is a romp- Matthew is the weakest. Streisand is like a fire engine winking all over the place if you notice, singing the hell out of score. I am a fan and frankly when you see talent like that on display- either you like being in the tornado or you do not. But never will you hear a voice like that turning a score into something it is not remotely as good as.%0D %0D When she is off screen, it stops, when she returns, as Barbra playing at Dolly Levi- it's fun just to watch her mug and wink and work the accents and sing like no one else can or ever could- except perhaps Garland.

by Anonymousreply 10608/15/2011

"But never will you hear a voice like that turning a score into something it is not remotely as good as."

Where is the oh, dear troll when you need him?

by Anonymousreply 10708/15/2011

Mae West was furious when she saw the movie. She told the press that Streisand should stop impersonating her.

by Anonymousreply 10808/15/2011

R108, stupid Mae West, Barbra's imitating of West at the time was funny, and it was out of admiration. She conjured West the way Midler later conjured Sophie Tucker. It also stimulated more interest in West. Stupid Mae West. Also, I never heard West complain about it at the time.

by Anonymousreply 10908/15/2011

To be fair, in the time period of the movie, a 30 year old woman was over the hill. If she was unmarried, she was an old maid. Girls used to "come out" as teenagers. "Coming out" meant you were actively looking for a husband. %0D %0D A wealthy man of that era could have had his pick of 18 year old virgins. Even young girls were looking for a meal ticket. Vandergelder was looking for a thrifty housewife, not a young girl looking to spend money and live it up. That's why Dolly was even a possibility. Married couples with a 30 year age span between them were not uncommon then, if money was involved. Not too different from today.

by Anonymousreply 11008/15/2011

nump

by Anonymousreply 11108/15/2011

[quote]Shirley McClaine would have made a terrific Dolly Levi, and she and Matthau would have played off each other very well. Unfortunately, she couldn't have sung the score.%0D %0D In those arrangements, maybe, but the original score was put over by Carol Channing, who was hardly a canary. Maclaine would've been fine.

by Anonymousreply 11208/15/2011

Mae West disliked all women, so her attacking Barbra was not out of the ordinary for her.

by Anonymousreply 11308/15/2011

At least we didn't get Kate Hepburn as Dolly. The mind boggles at the thought of Kate playing it as "A Connecticut Yankee in Yonkers".

by Anonymousreply 11408/15/2011

I have never seen an actress play Dolly as desperate. Streisand and Booth in the film versions don't. Channing didn't the many times I saw her on stage. Andrea Martin didn't play Dolly as desperate when I saw her in The Matchmaker either.

by Anonymousreply 11508/15/2011

I'm heartened to see that Hello Dolly is DL's favorite musical.

by Anonymousreply 11608/15/2011

[quote]It also stimulated more interest in West.

Really? How, exactly?

[quote]Stupid Mae West. Also, I never heard West complain about it at the time.

Then you must not have been reading the papers. At the time Dolly was released, Mae was very much in the press because she had just finished filming her "comeback" movie, "Myra Breckenridge."

by Anonymousreply 11708/15/2011

Oh, really, r 116?

by Anonymousreply 11808/15/2011

I still think Streisand's series of good-byes at the beginning of So Long Dearie is the funniest thing in the whole movie.

And I can't believe anyone is claiming that a show associated with Carol Fucking Channing requires subtlety

by Anonymousreply 11908/15/2011

Not subtlety - just the right actress. Streisand was the wrong actress.

by Anonymousreply 12008/15/2011

According to you, r120, but that is certainly not a consensus. Most people I know think the movie is only good when Barbra is onscreen.

In any case, "So Long, Dearie" is one of the most entertaining musical numbers Streisand ever put on film. "Before the Parade Passes By" is one of those iconic moments in the Streisand filmography, and "Hello, Dolly!" is so much fun, with Louis Armstrong, the dancing waiters, and that gorgeous gold dress.

by Anonymousreply 12108/15/2011

AS has been pointed out by others, Streisand has zero chemistry with Armstrong - she barely seems to know who he is, and he barely seems to know what he's doing there. That part of the "Hello, Dolly!" number is just embarrassing. The choreography is okay - probably better than any other number in the film - although Kidd kills the big pullback when they start singing again after the dance break.

The dress is gorgeous, though, and a really smart idea to not put her in red (as she is in the play).

"Parade" is fun for its sheer bigness - we'll never see the likes of that again without CGI'ed crowds and backgrounds - and So Long Dearie is fun but twisted from the way it's written to suit Streisand's "Don't Rain on My Parade" style.

by Anonymousreply 12208/15/2011

I hate musicals!!!

by Anonymousreply 12308/15/2011

I don't agree that Barbra and Louis had no chemistry. They liked each other very much. Barbra, who had immense respect for him, was very worried that Armstrong was being used by the filmmakers just to garner extra publicity. In the end, though, I think it's great that we actually have a moment captured onscreen of the two of them together. Barbra's awe of Armstrong's talent is clear as is his respect for her. I think it's a lovely moment, myself.

by Anonymousreply 12408/15/2011

Supposedly, Streisand thought Armstong was a cheap gimmick and was not happy about it.

But she ended up being in a good mood the day that was shot and enjoyed doing the scene.

by Anonymousreply 12508/15/2011

Why was Barbra better off in a gold dress than a red one? Just because the stage Dollys wore a red dress? There are other red dresses, you know!%0D %0D That particular metallic and beaded gold dress always seemed way over the top and frankly unaffordable by a woman of uncertain means.%0D %0D Oh yes, I know...it's only a musical, after all.

by Anonymousreply 12608/15/2011

A bit off-topic but...%0D %0D I can vouch for the fact that Hollywood Area queens went ballistic when "Oliver!" beat "Funny Girl" to the Best Picture Oscar.%0D %0D Such a fuss.%0D %0D Fun thread, even tho it gets repeated every few years.%0D %0D Did anyone mention "corn"?%0D %0D Just for the record, I disliked the movie. I never even watched it until it came out on VHS, as I couldn't envision anyone except Channing or Shirley Booth in the lead.%0D %0D I saw Carol Channing on closing night of the tour (in the 70's or 80's) in San Francisco. She did a very lengthy curtain call for "the home-town crowd."%0D %0D Later, in the 90's, I saw her opening night of the last tour - in Denver. At the curtain-call (huge audience response) she turned to the cast and said "I told you they'd love us."%0D %0D What a woman, warts and all! :-))%0D %0D Have a good nite.

by Anonymousreply 12708/15/2011

That gold beaded gown weighed a ton and Barbra had a heluva time dancing in it. It also made her look "hippy," in my opinion (and I am not the only one) and was not flattering to her. Debbie Reynolds owned the gown as part of her collection that was recently auctioned off.

by Anonymousreply 12808/15/2011

[quote]I have never seen an actress play Dolly as desperate

It's her situation that is desperate. It's not in the playing of the part. It's the back-story of the character. Dolly and her late husband lived high and frittered away all their money and now she has none. She does a little bit of everything to get by but one day she'll be too old to do fend for herself. She desperately NEEDS a man with money so she can enjoy her old age and help him enjoy his old age too. If she fails to snag Horace it's not likely she'll find another man who needs a woman like her to help him learn how to enjoy life.

Desperation is the essence of farce.

by Anonymousreply 12908/16/2011

Does Jerry Herman have a deal with DL that once every few months, either "Mame" or "Dolly" has to have its own thread debating the merits of the movie?

I would say by next February we'll be due for the next "Mame" thread - why was Lucy so awful? Why didn't Angela get to do it? Wasn't Lucy a bitch to have Madeline Kahn fired?

by Anonymousreply 13008/16/2011

[quote]Barbra, who had immense respect for him, was very worried that Armstrong was being used by the filmmakers just to garner extra publicity.

She was probably just pissed that they were bringing him in to sing what should have been HER number.

And it WAS just to garner extra publicity - he had the hit record, so he was in the movie. It was a really tacky moment - her instincts were right, and since she had no compunction about throwing her weight around that set, she should have put her foot down about the shoehorned "cameo" for Armstrong.

by Anonymousreply 13108/16/2011

Gee, r129, now explain to us the darker sub-text of Whoop-Up.

by Anonymousreply 13208/16/2011

Go back to listening to your ""Legally Blonde" cast album, r132.

by Anonymousreply 13308/16/2011

Barbra is also the only "watchable" aspect of On a Clear Day.... but it still doesn't make her performance very good nor does it save the movie.%0D %0D Why doesn't that film get the bi-annual DL treatment? It's far gayer than Dolly or Mame.

by Anonymousreply 13408/16/2011

Ha! Legally Blonde is one of the only cast albums I don't have!

by Anonymousreply 13508/16/2011

R128, she may have looked hippy in gold, but if they went with the red, she'd have looked like the side of a BARN.%0D %0D I believe Streisand had only a vague idea of who Louis Armstrong WAS aside from his hit single of "Hello Dolly." %0D %0D She was quoted as saying that using Armstrong was a "gimmick," yes, so? How about giving him the job in the movie? Does she ever think of anyone except herself?

by Anonymousreply 13608/16/2011

[quote]That gold beaded gown weighed a ton and Barbra had a heluva time dancing in it.%0D %0D Don't blame it on the dress. She could never dance. For christ's sake, at least admit that little flaw in your goddess.

by Anonymousreply 13708/16/2011

She was quoted as saying that using Armstrong was a "gimmick," yes, so? How about giving him the job in the movie? Does she ever think of anyone except herself%0D %0D Of course he was- she was not saying this to put him down but to acknowledge how he was being used as a beloved musician having a late life hit with the title song. By the way, she was a contracted actress for the film and had no creative or production power on this movie- or Funny Girl or Clear Day. She did the movie as part of a three picture deal (with Funny Girl) in order to become a movie star.

by Anonymousreply 13808/16/2011

"Hello, Dolly" is one of those filmed musicals like "The Pajama Game" and "Damn Yankees" and "1776" and the Rosalind Russell "Gypsy" that musical theater purists just can't stand. They certainly aren't definitive versions and deserve to be readapted until someone gets them just right as musicals and as cinema. But I enjoy watching them anyway. But then I enjoy watching "Star!" which even I will agree is neither a good musical or a good film.

by Anonymousreply 13908/16/2011

Sorry R129, I have never seen an actress, even Channing, play all that desperation even as subtext. In the musical version, Dolly discovers that she really wants Horace, not just his money, after the Dancing number and it is her lead in to Before the Parade Passes By which is one of the few human moments in the stage musical. But most actresses I have seen as Dolly pay the fact that Horace will be hers in a matter of fact way. Dolly is amusingly manipulative in the way I have seen it played.

R139, musical theater purists love the fim versions of Damn Yankees, Pajama Game and 1776 because they are faithful to the stage versions, include much of the original casts and were dire Ted by the original directors. I don't know any true musical theater fan who has ever eagerly awaited the often threatened Damn Yankees remake.

by Anonymousreply 14008/16/2011

Louis Armstrong was the best part of this mess.

by Anonymousreply 14108/16/2011

"Of course he was- she was not saying this to put him down"%0D %0D DUH. She was protecting the "integrity" of the film, LOL. I still say she knew very little about Louis.

by Anonymousreply 14208/16/2011

[quote] Armstrong was a "gimmick,"%0D %0D He was also a "gimmick" in "High Society" and did a good job as a gimmick in both.

by Anonymousreply 14308/16/2011

[quote] I enjoy watching "Star!" %0D %0D %0D Also produced in Todd-AO!

by Anonymousreply 14408/16/2011

Barbra looks fantastic in the Harmonia Gardens dance scene in HD. She's not an attractive woman but that dress, the mark-up and the feathers are amazing. She does look hippy - but that was the right body shape for the period. Those close-ups of Barbra on the stairs are ok - I know they were highly criticized at the time for their diva, self-indulgent quality.

I think the Michael Kidd choreography for the guys is too angular with the straight arms and kicking legs.

The curtains in the Harmonia Gardens bother me, too. They seem prissy and cheap.

by Anonymousreply 14508/16/2011

I thought Babs' four picture deal was with Ray Stark's production company, Rastar. She did "Funny Girl", "Owl and the Pussycat", and "The Way We Were" as part of this contract, but she refused to do the fourth film until Stark threatened her with a lawsuit. Which, of course, resulted in the mess that was "Funny Lady".

by Anonymousreply 14608/16/2011

What's that got to do with this movie????

by Anonymousreply 14708/16/2011

Louis Armstrong was far better, younger, and in much better health, in "High Society."%0D %0D He's also superb and used very well in a tiny part in the 1961 movie "Paris Blues" on TCM tonight:

by Anonymousreply 14808/16/2011

The Louis Armstrong 45 rpm record of "Hello, Dolly!" was the top-selling single in the USA of the 1960s.

Casting Barbra was as much of a gimmick as casting Louis.

by Anonymousreply 14908/16/2011

It seemed old and out-of-date as an art form and in casting (dated "stars) even as it came out. It reads like a cross between historical piece and a freak show now. There, I said it!

by Anonymousreply 15008/16/2011

That's because it should have been on a TV variety show, not in a film.%0D %0D Good one r149!

by Anonymousreply 15108/16/2011

Correct on both counts, r140.

by Anonymousreply 15208/16/2011

Barbra looks great in the gold dress. The color, and the feathers, really soften her. If she'd been in the traditional red, it would have made her look garish and ugly.

She was very well-dressed in "Dolly," to maximum effect.

In fact, the "Dolly" gowns were much more flattering to her than those little mini-skirts in "Clear Day."

by Anonymousreply 15308/16/2011

bump this broad

by Anonymousreply 15408/16/2011

How much longer till it's time for the next MAME thread?

by Anonymousreply 15508/16/2011

The Mame thread.

by Anonymousreply 15608/16/2011

No "Dolly" thread has ever died at less than 400 posts....it's shameful that no one has anything else to say.

by Anonymousreply 15708/17/2011

Am I the only one who enjoyed Barbra's Mae West schtick in the film? Most of the movie is a mess, but her scene with Matthau at the restaurant is a hoot.

by Anonymousreply 15808/17/2011

[quote]Am I the only one who enjoyed Barbra's Mae West schtick in the film?%0D %0D No, you're not the only one. There were five others. One in San Diego, two in Brooklyn, one in Jacksonville, NC, and one in Chicago.

by Anonymousreply 15908/17/2011

Did Mae West and Streisand get into a fist fight at a Hollywood party right after Dolly was released?

by Anonymousreply 16008/17/2011

Mae cut Babs with a shiv. They had to delay filming on "Clear Day" while her face healed.

by Anonymousreply 16108/17/2011

Pauline Kael, bless her, often a great critic, but often an inexplicable one, championed Babs in Dolly and Pussycat, where she's execrable.

by Anonymousreply 16208/25/2011

"I never understood how she can be completely accepted as both the 17 year old Fanny Brice and the 37 year old Fanny Brice at the end of Funny Girl but somehow her age in Hello Dolly becomes a HUGE issue. If she can be 37 year old Fanny in FG why can't she be 35-37 in HD?"

Because there's a huge difference between a role that ages from youth to middle-age in a biopic in a cinderella coming of age love story which the actress in question was born to play and originated to great acclaim on the one hand

and the very famous character of a middle-aged widow coming back into the prime of her life from the sidelines, "coming back where she belongs," that had already been associated in the public's imagination with the many beloved big name veteran show biz legends who had popularized it: Shirley Booth, Carol Channing, Pearl Bailey, Ethel Merman, Eve Arden, Dorothy Lamour, Betty Grable, Edie Adams, Martha Raye and Ginger Rogers, on the other

Especially when the actress in question decides to imitate Mae West in her performance.

by Anonymousreply 16308/25/2011

All of you... say what you want about the musical. The alltime greatest scene in films is Louis Armstrong and Streisand's duet. Loved it!!!

by Anonymousreply 16407/11/2012

Satchmo's appearance is exactly sixty seconds.

by Anonymousreply 16507/11/2012

R163 is right on target.

by Anonymousreply 16607/11/2012

Matthau made Streisand look a whole lot closer to pretty by comparison.

by Anonymousreply 16707/11/2012

Fuck off. I loved the movie and Streisand. The opening number JUST LEAVE EVERYTHING TO ME is so much better than that lame ass stop and start I PUT MY HAND UP MY ASS. But the big issue for me was who the hell was that no talent who was Irene Molloy? She was dubbed and acted like crap. I guess she was banging tap dancer Gene Kelly who directed it for shit.

by Anonymousreply 16807/11/2012

Had the movie been made ten years earlier, Roz Russell would have been a fabulous Dolly. Shirley MacLaine would have made a fun Dolly, and would have played well with Matthau. For Barbra, I think Jack Lemon would have been a better choice for Horace Vandergelder. He would have been funnier, he's more attractive, and I think they'd have had better chemistry. And Dolly doesn't have to be 38, does she? Dolly could have married at 18 or even 16 and been married ten or twelve years and still have only been thirty. I think Barbra is terrific in the part. The problem was the extremely weak direction and the co-starring of Matthau.

by Anonymousreply 16907/11/2012

R80, darling, it's "Finnegans Wake," not "Finnegan's Wake," for that matter!

by Anonymousreply 17007/11/2012

The choreography was more appalling than the rest of the direction. For Kelly, of all people, to have lines moving left and right across the bottom of the stage was unforgivable.

It might be noted that Shirley Booth was a musical star on Broadway. (Okay, she sang some songs -- but well. She had refinement.) She could have done the role.

by Anonymousreply 17107/11/2012

Maybe they'll remake this movie with Bette Midler. As Dolly, not Horace.

I'm also hoping that someone will finance Heather Mills' musical debut in Maim.

by Anonymousreply 17207/11/2012

Why do we have all these Dolly threads but never discuss South Pacific or Mame.

by Anonymousreply 17307/16/2012

I'm delighted to see that our Hello, Dolly! has become Datalounge's most beloved movie.

by Anonymousreply 17407/16/2012

For THAT reason he was the perfect Horace Vandegelder. Matthau and Streisand got on so badly that she must have relished every second of "So Long Dearie", especially that operatic "GOODBYE" intro. You can hear that she does.

I was so unhappy before I moved out of NYC that I called myself "more Horace Vandegelder than Walter Matthau".

by Anonymousreply 17507/17/2012

Attention NYC Queens!

*************************

This Sunday, July 22 at 2:30 pm!

Hello, Dolly! Gene Kelly, 1969 USA | 146 minutes

Restored 70mm print!

An extravagant cinematic interpretation of the Tony Award-winning Broadway musical by Jerry Herman and Michael Stewart, Hello, Dolly! is lavish and large. As Dolly Levi, Barbara Streisand plays a well-known matchmaker in 1890’s New York City who is supposed to help the rich and grumpy Horace Vandergelder (Walter Matthau) marry. Along the way, she not only unites other young couples, including Horace’s niece, but also, unsurprisingly, herself. Throughout this highly colorful and resplendent film, the fluid camera glides and soars in a choreographed manner, seeming to dance itself. The musical numbers, choreographed by the brilliant Michael Kidd, have sensational energy and force. Director Gene Kelly staged “Ribbons Down My Back, “It Only Takes a Moment” and the famous parade scene. Already experienced in the directing process with films like On the Town and Singin’ in the Rain, Kelly garnered a Golden Globe nomination for directing and a nod for Outstanding Directorial Achievement in a Feature Film from the Director’s Guild of America. Nominated for seven Academy Awards including Best Picture.

Series: Invitation to the Dance: Gene Kelly @ 100

Venue: Walter Reade Theater, Lincoln Center

by Anonymousreply 17607/17/2012

Walter got the part because he was super hairy and hung. Ask his wife if she's still alive, which I doubt.

by Anonymousreply 17707/17/2012

Michael Crawford at 60 years old was not a very good Barnaby.

by Anonymousreply 17807/17/2012

From the character description of Horace Vandergelder, the part Matthau played:

"Horace Vandergelder

Vandergelder is sixty years old and is described in the stage notes as "choleric, vain, and sly." He is stingy with money and rude to everyone he talks to. He is displeased with practically everything around him. He does not approve of the man his twenty-four-year-old niece intends to marry and so sends her away to ruin the engagement. He does not like the clerks who work at his hay, feed, and provisions store because he thinks that they should work more than fifteen hours a day, six days a week.

Vandergelder, a widower, plans to marry again, explaining to the audience in a soliloquy that a woman who marries into a household will keep house better than one who is hired to do so. He originally plans to marry Mrs. Molloy, but his interest in her is so feeble that he is willing to postpone his proposal when Dolly Levi tells him another woman is interested in him.

Throughout the play, other characters spend their time either trying to avoid Vandergelder because of his fearsome temper or plotting to get their hands on the money that he has hoarded by living a miserly existence. In the end, though, he becomes a warmer person. Dolly Levi tricks him into marrying her, and he goes along with it good-naturedly; he consents to the marriage of Ermengarde and Ambrose, which he had violently opposed in the first scene; and he agrees to make Barnaby a partner in his business. The sudden transformation implies that Vandergelder was a good-natured person all along but just did not know how to show his softer side.

Now, who would have been a BETTER choice than Walter Matthau?

by Anonymousreply 17907/17/2012

R176--

"You'll see ALL the show in TODD-AO!!"

by Anonymousreply 18007/17/2012

In an interview with Paul O'Grady of the BBC, Barbra talked about Louis Armstrong. She said that although making the film was not a great experience, she was happy to have spent whatever time she had with Louis on set. She found him to be an extremely nice man, and just being around him helped.

by Anonymousreply 18107/24/2012

Angela Lansbury as Dolly would have coaxed the Blues right of Satchmo's horn.

by Anonymousreply 18207/24/2012

Somebody, anybody, who could sing R179.

by Anonymousreply 18307/24/2012

[quote]Now, who would have been a BETTER choice than Walter Matthau?

Gordon MacRae

by Anonymousreply 18407/24/2012

R184, it's a very good suggestion, but I'm pretty confident that Gordon MacRae was down at the bottom of a whiskey bottle at the time. How fitting it would be, though, for him to star in the movie musical that killed the old style movie musical -- or at least served as the obituary.

("Mame" doesn't count, because it was DOA, a misguided vehicle for a TV star)

by Anonymousreply 18507/25/2012

Why not Robert Preston?

by Anonymousreply 18607/25/2012

Even as a mere child the extended dance sequences with the waiters embarassed me. Too queeny to be believed, and self indulgent.

Other than that, I kind of love this movie. They should've cut Ribbons Down My Back- almost nobody can make that song interesting. Oh and they could have tried to do something about the enormous gap between songs in the first quarter of the film.

I found Michael Crawford to be strangely hot. Even moreso in "A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum". Am I alone in this?

by Anonymousreply 18707/25/2012

Frank Sinatra would have made a great Horace.

by Anonymousreply 18807/25/2012

Robert Preston is a great idea. That would have been a memorable pairing.

by Anonymousreply 18907/25/2012

While Robert Preston would have been great in the part, he would have needed a decent Dolly for the female lead.

by Anonymousreply 19007/27/2012

Almost afraid to post this, because I found her so thoroughly revolting much of the time, but I saw Robert Preston and Mary Martin in "I Do, I Do," and even to a child (I was one, really!) their chemistry seemed obvious. I think that in 68 or 69 she could have been a terrific (if not very photogenic) Dolly.

by Anonymousreply 19107/27/2012

[quote]I found Michael Crawford to be strangely hot...Am I alone in this?

You need to ask?

by Anonymousreply 19207/27/2012

[quote]I found Michael Crawford to be strangely hot.

If you're into "strange" then you're at the right place but he was far from hot.

by Anonymousreply 19307/27/2012

Can we discuss Best Little Whorehouse in Texas for once? We seem to pick over Hello, Dolly!, Gypsy, or Mame, every other week.

by Anonymousreply 19407/27/2012

[quote]Can we discuss Best Little Whorehouse in Texas for once?

Why don't you start a thread on it, r194?

by Anonymousreply 19507/27/2012

bump

by Anonymousreply 19602/10/2013

I could see finding Barnaby hot, but never Michael Crawford (or worse, Tommy Tune).

by Anonymousreply 19702/10/2013

There can never be enough threads about Hello Dolly

by Anonymousreply 19802/10/2013

You know how many of us have that ONE guy who we are inexplicably sexually attracted to?

Well, I would have totally let Walter Matthau(at least the way he looked in this movie) fuck my butt into 1970 had he been into it.

Must be the sideburns.

by Anonymousreply 19902/10/2013

r199, I cannot think of a man I would less want to fuck than Walter Matthau at any age.

by Anonymousreply 20002/10/2013

[quote]I found Michael Crawford to be strangely hot.

I found Michael Crawford to be strangely awful in that role.

by Anonymousreply 20102/10/2013

It would be nice if they could use some CGI process to remove a few hundred extras from most of the scenes. Sometimes less can be better.

by Anonymousreply 20205/17/2013

Was Gower Champion trying for some world record for the number of extras in a musical scene?

by Anonymousreply 20305/18/2013

This video of Carol Channing and cast performing Hello Dolly! at the White House is a historical gem. Enjoy...

by Anonymousreply 20405/18/2013

It's on TCM right now.

Still awful.

by Anonymousreply 20507/29/2013

Michael Crawford's whole manner in that movie - his way of speaking, and singing, and moving - I find completely repulsive, sexually. Like, there are women I think I find more sexually attractive than Michael Crawford in that movie (and I'm 100% homo!)

by Anonymousreply 20607/30/2013

R178 What the hell kind of name is Barnaby????? Stupid stupid name.

by Anonymousreply 20707/30/2013

I've never really understood the hate for this film. I found it pretty entertaining in an old fashioned way. It's like comfort food. It just happened to be released at the wrong time. Musicals were already dead in the late 60's. Barbra might have been too young, but she sang the shit out of the score and did a great job anyway.

Another surprisingly good one that was released around the same time was Fosse's Sweet Charity with Shirley MacLaine. She's quite good in the film. Surprised no one's tried to remake that one. Great score!

by Anonymousreply 20807/30/2013

Comes from St. Barnabas.

by Anonymousreply 20907/30/2013

r203- I'm not sure what Gower Champion's motives were for using so many extras since Gene Kelly directed the film.

by Anonymousreply 21007/30/2013

Was matthau a alcoholic? He had such an alcoholic face.

by Anonymousreply 21107/30/2013

Danny Lockin was picked up in a gay bar in L.A. and brutally murdered. Many people think his murder was part of a snuff film.

by Anonymousreply 21207/30/2013

Any actor other than Matthau would've been better looking than Streisand, and she never would've allowed it. I like Louis Armstrong, but jeez louise, he was on film for what, 90 seconds? He got thrown a bone, I'm happy for him,so why did Streisand wax so rhapsodically about him?

by Anonymousreply 21307/30/2013

Dolly is a very heavy and boring film, and i like musicals;

Give me Easter Parade any time of day.

by Anonymousreply 21407/30/2013

Horace Vandegelder isn't supposed to be an attractive man.

And Babs has played with many actors far prettier than she.

by Anonymousreply 21507/30/2013

Too bad that can't rework it with some type of CGI to eliminate about 2,000 extras from the production numbers.

by Anonymousreply 21607/30/2013

R213 So was Jay Eglin.

by Anonymousreply 21708/10/2013

Didn't Walter Matthau make Babs look pretty by comparison?

by Anonymousreply 21808/10/2013
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