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They dug him up! Pope is one step closer to sainthood

Pope John Paul's body was exhumed today, they're going to put it on view as part of the beatification process.

by Anonymousreply 8401/11/2013

That's disgusting but what do you expect from people that worship a zombie.

by Anonymousreply 104/29/2011

Sainthood for a monster that allowed the molestations of thousands of children. Catholics are beyond fucked up.

by Anonymousreply 204/29/2011

Exactly, R2.%0D %0D For 20+ years, Catholics have known that priests have been molesting children, and that other priests, bishops, cardinals and the Pope himself have been protecting them. Not a single Catholic has demanded that anyone step down. Instead, it's business as usual as the Catholic sheeple live in abject fear of the Church hierarchy condemning them to hell for daring to question cleric's authority over them.

by Anonymousreply 304/29/2011

Time and worms can't but have been kind to that face.

by Anonymousreply 504/29/2011

R4, why condemn cheekster? What I said is, I am sure in your eyes, much worse.

But you can't handle the truth. Just like a blind hypocrite catholic.

by Anonymousreply 604/29/2011

I don't like to bad mouth other people's beliefs HOWEVER. . . you gotta be fucking kidding me.

by Anonymousreply 704/29/2011

W&W for r1; F&F for r4

by Anonymousreply 804/29/2011

Surely they're not going to open that coffin? I know they claimed he was not embalmed (which I believe to be a big fat lie). If he had not been embalmed his body would have shown marked signs of decay between his death and the day of his funeral. He would have stinking to high heaven unless they kept his ol' ass in a freezer. But I think they left his body out for 24 hr. viewing for days on end if I remember correctly. So ain't no way he was not embalmed. And if he wasn't embalmed then by now he'd be nothing but a skeleton in some vile vestments soiled by his own decomposition fluids.

by Anonymousreply 904/29/2011

I believe his body was treated in some manner, but not embalmed.%0D %0D Watched the services on TV and you could see that the skin on his face and hands had become discolored over the course of several days.%0D %0D I remember thinking that the body must be starting to smell.

by Anonymousreply 1004/29/2011

I eat old, dead, pope's excrement!

by Anonymousreply 1104/29/2011

Gross just gross, but what do you expect from a church that believes in flesh eating and blood drinking.

by Anonymousreply 1204/29/2011

"I believe his body was treated in some manner, but not embalmed."%0D %0D %0D %0D %0D %0D

by Anonymousreply 1304/29/2011

If this doesn't wake people up to how insane Catholics truly are, nothing will!

by Anonymousreply 1404/29/2011

It might as well be the Dark Ages as far as Catholics are concerned.

by Anonymousreply 1504/29/2011

They are putting a rotting corpse out for viewing. That's just disgusting.

by Anonymousreply 1604/29/2011

No, the Vatican is fucked up. Which is why most American Catholics ignore them. Which pisses the Vatican off even more.

by Anonymousreply 1704/29/2011

r17, people who support a fucked up organization, are fucked up themselves, thus, American Catholics are fucked up! How could you continue attending those churches and donating money to an organization filled with kiddy fuckers?

by Anonymousreply 1804/29/2011

RC is trying to turn their press around.%0D %0D Fact is they have a moral stain on them that they will neither expurge or acknowledge. The other fact is that they know that most of them are homosexual and still want it to be a sin.%0D %0D The RC church is a distillation of what can go wrong with human institutions and civility, and how wealth can stomp almost anything out.%0D %0D This particular Pope was good on Communism and a trogalodyte on all else- like most popes. He advocated tube feeding for those in a persistant vegetative state, but when he became terminally ill, had his tube feeding stopped. Nothing like practicing what you preach- and the Pope no less (I acknowledge he was not in a PVS far as we know, but he was in very much the same situation).

by Anonymousreply 1904/29/2011

Unless he was embalmed there would be nothing left but bones after 7 years in that coffin.

by Anonymousreply 2004/29/2011

r3, a lot of Catholics have been demanding that the Church stop providing safe haven for sexually abusive priests, the Voice of the Faithful and Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests being two of the more prominent organizations that have been doing this.

by Anonymousreply 2104/29/2011

[quote]people who support a fucked up organization, are fucked up themselves, thus, American Catholics are fucked up! How could you continue attending those churches and donating money to an organization filled with kiddy fuckers?%0D %0D %0D It's like a game of "pass it on" to read this. For thirty years, Anita Bryant and her hate-mongering followers (many post at DL on a regular basis) have claimed that ALL GAYS are kiddy fuckers!!!! The pedo-accusations are hurled at the gay community almost daily at DL.%0D %0D OTOH, listening to NPR today, there are plenty of Catholics objecting to these rites being held for JP2. Let's hope they continue to voice their disapproval.

by Anonymousreply 2204/29/2011

That may be, r21, bit the pope was a complete and total monster in hiding the facts, moving and shielding priests and lying about. Like I said, he's a complete monster. Only fucked up catholics would make this guy a saint.

by Anonymousreply 2304/29/2011

"a lot of Catholics have been demanding that the Church stop providing safe haven for sexually abusive priests, the Voice of the Faithful and Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests." %0D %0D Complete and utter bullshit. Both of these organizations are mainly composed of abuse victims and their families. Rank and file Catholics are mute. %0D %0D R22 is deliberately trying to confuse the issue. The thrust of the argument at hand is that idiotic Catholics continue to support and donate money to the Church. That same money goes to lawyers defending the Church and to payouts. Cutoff the money and Church officials will be defenseless and end up in jail, WHERE THEY BELONG!!!!

by Anonymousreply 2404/29/2011

[quote]R22 is deliberately trying to confuse the issue. %0D %0D There is absolutely no confusion for anyone who has a modicum of intelligence. %0D %0D Just as you, r24 along with r18, continue to paint the entire Catholic church as being "filled with kiddy fuckers" and their enablers, YOU and every gay person have been painted as kiddie fuckers by the fundies. Your outlook toward a group with some bad apples is not much different from the hate-mongering fundies and rethuglicunts who attack us ALL on a daily basis. %0D %0D Yes, r24, you're playing [italic]Pass It On[/italic] with your hatred.

by Anonymousreply 2504/29/2011

I didn't realize that being gay meant choosing to be part of a world-wide super-wealthy religious body and that my contributions to this big gay corporation were being used to obstruct justice and keep criminals from being prosecuted. Thanks for clearing that one up for me R25.

by Anonymousreply 2604/29/2011

I love you R26.

by Anonymousreply 2704/29/2011

[quote]I didn't realize %0D %0D As I mentioned, it takes a modicum of intelligence to figure it out. Obviously, you're not up to it.

by Anonymousreply 2804/29/2011

Do embalmned remains decompose?

by Anonymousreply 2904/29/2011


by Anonymousreply 3004/29/2011

You're right R25/28. I'm not up to your level of false equivalences.

by Anonymousreply 3104/29/2011

R25 is obviously is a pedo, cause he/she/it keeps defending pedos and their protectors. %0D %0D Case closed.

by Anonymousreply 3204/29/2011

Brian Lambert on Saint John Paul II

Memo to Catholics: YOU ARE WEIRD.

OK. I was nice. I waited until just about the least holy day in the entire year to do this. It's another 51 weeks before the next Good Friday/Easter combo, so you should have your transubstantiation tanks topped off for at least nine months. But I gotta say it - Catholics are FUCKING WEIRD.

So they've got a Pope. And that's fine. You pick an old guy, you put a hat on him, he gets to be the infallible word of Catholic Jehovah on Earth for a decade or two until he croaks, lather, rinse, repeat.

There's only one Pope at a time, and during that time, he is King Shit of Gold-Plated Turd Mountain. Top dog. The Man to end all The Men. He waggles one eyebrow and hundreds of thousands of women get pregnant from unprotected sex out of pure guilt.

You would think that would be enough. But not for Catholics! Pope John Paul II died eight years ago, and now they're giving him a promotion. A post-mortem promotion. And it's the first of TWO post-mortem promotions he's eligible for!

First he gets beatified, which sounds like they're going to hang his body from a rope and hit him with sticks until candy comes out of him, but is in fact much less interesting. Then he's canonized, which again, sounds much more awesome than it actually is. He just gets to be a saint.

To be beatified, someone has to "prove" that JP2 performed one "miracle". Canonizing requires a second one. Since miracles don't actually exist, there's an elaborate, time-consuming process in place in order to create a convincing illusion that they're not just playing pretend.

The Porpse's official beatification ritual involves a French nun who was diagnosed with Parkinson's disease in 2001, and "healed" in 2005 after two other nuns prayed to the recently-deceased Pope for help.

It appears that pretty much all miracles these days are healing miracles, for reasons you don't need to be James Randi to figure out.

What cracks me up isn't the transparent dubiosity of these "miracles". It's the elaborate play-acting that goes into it to make it look serious and scholarly.

They have a whole group of very official-sounding church people whose job it is to go around and ask questions and verify the alleged miracle, when at best all they're doing is auditioning fairy tales for a minimum level of plausibility.

And not even that high a level of plausibility. Just enough so that if anyone looks into it and suggests that maybe the nun isn't all that cured after all, the churchies can shout them down using tactics not dissimilar from the hue and cry of "liberal lamestream media" from America's superstitious power-brokers.

But fine. Whatever. If it were up to me, I'd come up with cooler miracles, like a time when the Vatican microwave was broken, and lo, John Paul II placed his hands over a frozen burrito, and when he took them away (five to seven minutes later, depending on the wattage of your Pope), the burrito was warm. And not just around the edges, all the way through, without even a couple of frozen beans in the center!

Boring old healing is one thing, but this part is creepy as fuck. ACTUAL QUOTE TIME!

"The Vatican said doctors had taken a quantity of blood from the pontiff while he lay dying, which had been sent in four containers to the blood transfusion centre at the Bambino Gesu hospital in Rome. Two 'remained at the disposal' of his private secretary, Stanislaw Dziwisz, who was later made a cardinal and the archbishop of Krakow.

The remaining two phials stayed in the hospital where they were 'devoutly safeguarded by the nuns' who work there as nurses. Both had been put into reliquaries: ornate relic containers that are usually made with precious metals and stones. One of the reliquaries was to be returned to the hospital. The other would be exhibited on Sunday and then be kept with other relics in the Vatican."

Dude. That's fucked up.


by Anonymousreply 3304/29/2011

Brian Lambert on Saint John Pope II

Do you remember how much shit Angelina Jolie got back in the day for wearing a vial of Billy Bob Thornton's blood around her neck? And he gave it to her while he was alive and healthy! And it was just a plain, ordinary vial!

This is four vials, taken from a dying old man, tarted up in gold and silver, and sent around for Catholics to line up and gawk at for hours. And Jolie was the weird one.

Catholics are just lucky they're grandfathered in. Try starting a religion with that much blood in it today and see what happens. Spontaneously bleeding hands, ritualistic drinking of stuff you're pretending is blood, keeping a jar of your dead leader's blood on the mantlepiece... Bill Donohue would be on Fox News denouncing your cult every fucking night, completely impervious to the irony.

Just saying.

-- Brian Lambert

by Anonymousreply 3404/29/2011

No fucking way?

by Anonymousreply 3504/29/2011

R30, I swear to God you made me laugh so hard I almost knocked a lung loose!

by Anonymousreply 3604/29/2011

Let's lay this out one step at a time so a moron like R25 and other boneheaded Catholics can understand. %0D %0D 1. Abusing children is a crime.%0D 2. Not reporting this abuse to authorities is a crime. %0D 3. Aiding and abetting criminals by attempting to cover up their crimes is a crime.%0D 4. Catholic church offices including priests, bishops, cardinals and probably numerous popes have been doing #2, #3 and #4 above for decades, more likely for centuries. %0D 5. Rank and file Catholics have known about this abuse for at least 20 years, and have done absolutely nothing about these criminals in their midst. %0D %0D As someone pointed out up thread, the only people demanding some action be taken and justice be done are the victims and their families. For years, Church officials and Catholics themselves denied anything was amiss, and when they begrudingly acknowledged the truth, insisted it was all a conspiracy against them, and like R25 keeps insisting, its bigotry and hatred of Catholics the keeps these actions moving forward, which couldn't be further from the truth. %0D

by Anonymousreply 3704/29/2011

I grew up in a liberal Catholic household and went to a Jesuit run parish and prep school -- my mother who converted after she married my dad still gets lady wood over the fact that all the priests at their church have graduate degrees "in real things, like social work and philosophy."

I'm baffled as to why they still belong to the Catholic church -- there are plenty of comparatively less ridiculous religions around, a fact I point out to them quite often, but they go to mass every week, are deeply involved in various "Ignatian" small group communities, and the two of them co-ordinate and on-site manage a weekly soup kitchen and drop-in-centre in the most bombed out part of my hometown serving three course meals to the homeless, solvent-huffers and crackheads, street gang members and hookers (somehow, this task of organizing and funding this venture is the sole domain of the laity -- surprise, surprise.)

But they (baby boomers) are really the last generation of North Americans who seem willing to work within the structure of the Catholic church. After they are gone there will be no base left here.

Meanwhile, the Catholic church is busy digging up the dead pope in order to start another go-round of self-glorification.

by Anonymousreply 3804/29/2011

Damn and I thought I was screwed up!!! Seems now maybe I am in awesome shape!!! Thanks for making me feel sane

by Anonymousreply 3904/29/2011

"Rank and file Catholics have known about this abuse for at least 20 years, and have done absolutely nothing about these criminals in their midst."

That's because they *can't* do anything. The church isn't a democracy. It's a absolutist monarchy. I live in boston and it's amazing how all these vigil-ing catholics think their campouts amount to anything.

American catholics especially are so sadly deluded. They think they can vote, or have some kind of an effect, the way people in other religions do.

by Anonymousreply 4004/29/2011

Yikes! Death cult.

by Anonymousreply 4104/29/2011

If American Catholics had not been so hung up on papacy or lineage of authority from Rome, they could have been like the Episcopalians to the Anglican Communion. The Episcopalians choose their own Presiding Bishop, which is equivalent to an archbishop, and the current one is a female.

by Anonymousreply 4204/29/2011

Weird - some of the posts here are as hateful as any fundie argument against gays.

by Anonymousreply 4304/29/2011

Hating an organization, or people belonging to such an organization, is NOT THE SAME as hating someone for WHO they are. %0D %0D To say "I hate gays" is totally hateful because--guess what--I can't change being gay. I did not "choose" it regardless of what people may say.%0D %0D If one belongs to a hateful organization, that person has the ability to leave that hateful orgnization.%0D %0D So, R43, stop equating hating gays and hating catholics as the same, you shitstain.

by Anonymousreply 4404/29/2011

You know what would be cool? If they put him in the popemobile and drove him around Rome by remote control. They could hook his hand to a pully so he waves.

by Anonymousreply 4504/29/2011

Amen, R44. My very catholic family left the church in support of me.

by Anonymousreply 4604/29/2011

I hate Muslims.

by Anonymousreply 4704/29/2011

Not a catholic or intend to defend them. There are many types of catholics - catholics who vehemently defend the church's positions on sexuality or contraception, catholics who say "I just go to mass and then live my own life," catholics who go to mass and then go online to fight against the ridiculous positions the catholic church holds on sexuality and other issues, and catholics who go to mass and donate just because they use the facilities but then they go on to live their lives in anyway they see suitable. Some catholics do find their spiritual roots in the catholicism and decide to seperate their religious practice from other parts of their lives. And I respect that because I'm not sure if their spiritual roots are simply something like a choice of political affiliation seperable from their identity, or it's inseperable as sexuality. Unless it's clear to me by reason and science, I choose to respect them based on their individual merits.

by Anonymousreply 4804/29/2011

Not all catholics hate gays. Either you realize that or you don't. But it's a fact.

by Anonymousreply 4904/29/2011

Many corpses today fail to decompose due to the amount of preservatives in our daily diet. It wouldn't be impossible for a 7 year old corpse to be in-tact, as there have been in-tact corpses that were 25+ years old that have not decomposed.

Considering the topical applications that could be applied to an unimbalmed corpse that had beed on display for days prior to burial, it wouldn't be surprising to find an intact corpse.

by Anonymousreply 5004/29/2011

In what possible way will this beautify him?

by Anonymousreply 5104/29/2011

Preservatives in food have nothing to do with human decomposition. The climate the body is buried in would have an effect, though.%0D %0D I vaguely remember that one of the requirements for beatification is that the body of the person is incorruptible, ie, has not decomposed even after being dead a long time.

by Anonymousreply 5204/29/2011

There will be some official statement about how he's miraculously intact. It's one of the lame tricks the Curia has used in the past. They actually have crypts of 'miraculous' un-decayed saints that are clearly wax masks. Such unmitigated fraud.

by Anonymousreply 5304/29/2011

One reason, one that suffices to oppose the sainthood of that old man, is that many people who died because of his opposition to the use of condoms (along with other contraceptive measures.)

He knew that people, including catholics, were dying of AIDS in Africa. He knew it would help, but he refused to let go of his fanatic view of chastity and contraception. So, many people died. That's good enough of a reason that he WAS not saintly enough and will never be.

by Anonymousreply 5404/29/2011

They just could not stand around and watch the British put on a show without doing one themselves. %0D %0D They want to wear their hats, frocks, and robes to. %0D %0D %0D %0D %0D %0D %0D %0D

by Anonymousreply 5504/29/2011


Yeah, the feud that started with Henry VIII hasn't ended yet.

by Anonymousreply 5604/29/2011

Not so R43.%0D %0D Bennie didn't want to canonize him, since he knew him personally and knew what a shit he was, so Bennie actually CHANGED THE RULES by requiring two miracles (JPII had canonized half all the Catholic saints by reducing the miracle load to one). That he's going to canonize him now is a sign of serious desperation.

by Anonymousreply 5704/29/2011

I was shocked to read that they were taking a DNA sample to see if the Pervy Pope was a child molester. I guess no one should be surprised.%0D %0D And who knows what kind of kinky stuff goes on behind closed doors at the Vatican. The Catholic church is surely one of the strangest criminal organizations ever...a bunch of queeny, phony, creepy bizarros. %0D %0D Wait! I take it back, that's not fair to the rest of the queeny, phony, creepy bizarros.

by Anonymousreply 5804/29/2011

All of you are completely homophobic to go on about the Catholic Church the way you do. There is no other institution that employs more gays than the Catholic Church. Well, except maybe the marines.%0D %0D From the Pope on down...GAY GAY GAY!%0D %0D So shut up!

by Anonymousreply 5904/29/2011


by Anonymousreply 6004/30/2011

ha r45 and they could install a coin slot in the popemobile so children could get their fortune on a slip of paper that came out his mouth

by Anonymousreply 6104/30/2011

R25, 43, etc. - what's to protect. I grew up in a small town where the RC priest molested about 15 boys; one reportedly committed suicide because of it. You know where the priest ended up? He was 'exiled' to a monastery in the French countryside. Yeah, great punishment. Who would support that? He should have rotted in jail like the pedo he was. Why men like him were allowed to circumvent the judicial system is beyond me - does the Catholic church actually have that much power? I can't respect anyone who would support that. It has nothing to do with fundie arguments against gays, etc., it has to do with morals and values as they SHOULD be seen. I don't give a shit what anyone thinks of me being gay, because I know I'm right and better than ANY person who would protect pedophiles who fuck up young people's lives and not only get away with it, but get supported by millions of people around the world. But I can see why freepers like you don't get it.

by Anonymousreply 6204/30/2011

This is part of the catholic church's old pagan background. The corpse of a saint candidate ( saint -elect) has to show to be uncorruptable as a sign of his " holiness" ie he just dosn't rot like us sinners. When I was in Vatican World last Nov they had Pope John XXIII (died in 1963) "corpse" totaly exposed under glass like a pheasant, It was obviously a green very wax dummy. Just another example of religious wackiness.Even the commies closed Lenin's their Madame Tussauds wax museum in red square. BTW I got a picture with "Saint "Johnny 23.

by Anonymousreply 6304/30/2011

Well, this is a church which has had ithyphallic saints, whose bodies used to be dug up so they could pour wine over the dead saint's penis and drink it.

by Anonymousreply 6404/30/2011

Yes, I used to read about the ithyphallic saints years ago. I wonder why we never read about them today? Especially in France they used to cut off the penises of great men when they died and keep the penises stored someplace so they could pour wine over them, which they would drink for fertility or some such thing. My facts may be garbled since it's been decades since I read about this.

It sounds bizarre but it was real. I don't know if it still goes on today.

by Anonymousreply 6501/06/2013

A huge percentage of the people in Italy believe that Pope John Paul I was murdered, and many believe that John Paul II was probably a part of the murder. Read Murder in the Vatican.

by Anonymousreply 6601/06/2013

I hope they have a lot of Febreeze handy.

by Anonymousreply 6701/06/2013

I wouldn't be surprised r66 -- with JPII, the Western World started in the same downward rightwing spiral, soon joined by Reagan/Thatcher

by Anonymousreply 6801/06/2013

Disgusting. The double agent (Nazi and Communist) pig whose assassinations destroyed the Catholic church to be honored by the fake church he set up in its stead.

by Anonymousreply 6901/06/2013

Meanwhile, who can say why a vicious mobster has been given a special burial place in a Vatican church?

by Anonymousreply 7001/11/2013

Pope John XXIII was the only liberal pope in a very, very long time. And he obviously would not have been elected pope if the college of cardinals (as opposed to the St.Louis Cardinals) realized whom they were getting.

Pope John Paul II was one of the most conservative popes of the 20th/21st century, so we are not talking about two men who shared many of the same beliefs.

by Anonymousreply 7101/11/2013

[quote]Unless he was embalmed there would be nothing left but bones after 7 years in that coffin.

Not if it was made by Tupperware. But if they didn't "burp" him properly. Ewwww.

by Anonymousreply 7201/11/2013

post a pic or it didn't happen

by Anonymousreply 7301/11/2013

I can't believe all the vile and disgusting comments on this thread about the Holy Father.

by Anonymousreply 7401/11/2013

I can't believe the vile and disgusting comments by the supposed religious.

by Anonymousreply 7501/11/2013

[all posts by right wing shit-stain # a removed.]

by Anonymousreply 7601/11/2013

And their conmtributions support a homophobic hierarchy R48

by Anonymousreply 7701/11/2013

[quote] used to read about the ithyphallic saints years ago. I wonder why we never read about them today?

Perhaps in the future there may be some invention called Google that will show us where to read about them. That would truly be a miracle.

by Anonymousreply 7801/11/2013

Saint Foutin was a syncretic amalgam of Priapus with Pothinus, a figure of uncertain historicity alleged by Irenaeus to have been the first bishop of Lyon. The similarity of the name Pothinus and the Old French verb foutre led to linguistic assimilation; the name Saint Foutin is roughly equivalent in modern English to Saint Fuck.

St. Foutin was immensely popular. He was believed to have a wonderful influence in restoring fertility to barren women and vigor and virility to impotent men. It is related that, in the church at Varages, in Provence, to such a degree of reputation had the shrine of this saint risen, it was customary for the afflicted to make a wax image of their impotent and flaccid organ, which was deposited on the shrine. On windy days the beadle and sexton were kept busy in picking up these imitations of decrepit and penitent male members from the floor, whither the wind wafted them, much to the annoyance and disturbance of the female portions of the congregation, whose devotions are said to have been sadly interfered with.

At a church in Embrun there was a large phallus, which was said to be a relic of St. Foutin. The worshippers were in the habit of offering wine to this deity, as a libation (the wine was poured over the head of the organ); a sacred vessel underneath caught the wine, which was then called holy vinegar, and believed to be an efficacious remedy in cases of sterility, impotence, or want of virility.

His worship continues in the canyon of Ollioules, in the department of the Var, where a lot of small caves contained inscriptions and wax statues related to him. Young people from the little villages around, like Le Beausset, Ollioules, La Cadière-d'Azur, Evenos, Le Castellet, Var, Le Broussan, Signes, Var and even from the city of Toulon, come in that canyon, where the source of the Destel (Reppe) flows from automn to spring, when they want to increase there chances in love or sexuality.

by Anonymousreply 7901/11/2013

They need a new hit - the Vatican Top 40 fell out of favor eons ago....

by Anonymousreply 8001/11/2013

[quote] I can't believe all the vile and disgusting comments on this thread about the Holy Father.

I can't believe how many people still follow a religion that has been hideous and hateful to women and gays for thousands of years, and whose heinousness is matched only by its hypocrisy. If I want to follow an example of faith, light and ethics, it won't be from an outlaw band of boytouchers, thanks.

by Anonymousreply 8101/11/2013

[quote]the name Saint Foutin is roughly equivalent in modern English to Saint Fuck.

Perhaps Saint Fuck should be declared the patron saint of DataLounge.

by Anonymousreply 8201/11/2013

He's a better choice than the undeclared prior sacred patron of DataLounge, St. Poutine.

by Anonymousreply 8301/11/2013

Certainly not R83. The vile old Pole helped spread HIV and may have had a role in its initial spread.

by Anonymousreply 8401/11/2013
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