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Speaking of Sharon Tate...

Which of the Manson Family was the worst? I've always thought Susan Atkins was the most despicable and evil.

by Anonymousreply 19711/09/2013

Ahem, dumbshit.

by Anonymousreply 104/07/2011

Obviously I meant besides Manson himself.

by Anonymousreply 204/07/2011

Squeaky Fromme

by Anonymousreply 304/07/2011

Mia Farrow.

by Anonymousreply 404/07/2011

Sorry, I mean, Ruth Gordon.

by Anonymousreply 504/07/2011

Tex, closely followed by Pat.

by Anonymousreply 604/07/2011


by Anonymousreply 704/07/2011

What R6 said

by Anonymousreply 804/07/2011

That's a tough call, since all of them were the scum of this earth. %0D %0D Atkins was certainly the most flamboyantly evil; during her trial she giggled and made faces and talked about killing people like it was the most natural thing in the world. She loved the attention.%0D %0D Krenwinkle was the most vicious in terms of killing; she stabbed Abigail Folger so ferociously that the knife broke. And she was the one who carved "war" on the stomach of Leno LaBianca; she also stuck a fork in his stomach and a steak knife in his throat. %0D %0D Tex was equal to Krenwinkle when it came to blood lust. An 18 year old boy saw named the Manson gang approaching Tate's house; his last words were "please don't hurt me, I won't say anything" before Tex pumped four bullets into him. Tex also shot Jay Sebring when Sebring told him to let Sharon sit down (Tex had told the eight months pregnant Tate to lie down on her stomach).%0D %0D Leslie Van Houten enthusiastically participated in the LaBianca murders. Afterwards, she and the rest of them fixed themselves a snack with food from the refridgerator of the couple they had just butchered. %0D %0D I don't any one of the Manson family can be singled out as "the worst." They were all as inhuman and monstrous as they come.

by Anonymousreply 904/07/2011

I thought Tex said he stuck the knife in Leno's neck.%0D %0D Not to quibble or anything.

by Anonymousreply 1004/07/2011

How many fucking Manson threads do we need a year, every year over and over and over again?

by Anonymousreply 1104/07/2011

[quote]How many fucking Manson threads do we need a year, every year over and over and over again? Three. And Tex was sexy trash.

by Anonymousreply 1204/07/2011

[quote]she also stuck a fork in his stomach She just wanted to see if he was done.

by Anonymousreply 1304/07/2011

While I get that the murders were gruesome, I wonder why the case fascinates America so. Is it because a victim was pregnant and beautiful? Is it because of the 'group of killers' aspect? Is it because it shattered America's innocence?

There are many horrible murders out there that we hear about all the time, body parts found in dumpsters, newborns abandoned, the torture and enslavement of people for years, etc. yet none fascinate like the Manson murders.

by Anonymousreply 1404/07/2011

The public is fascinated because the victims were almost all Hollywood folk, pretty, minor celebrities and rich and white. Isn't that how it always is? %0D %0D That's also why some of the killers who in any other case with the exact same circumstances would have been paroled after 20 years. The prison terms are going on 40 years now. This has become political.

by Anonymousreply 1504/07/2011

[quote]How many fucking Manson threads do we need a year, every year over and over and over again?

Perhaps you could set and enforce a rigid limitation on these matters for everyone else. We desperately need a hall monitor, and you seem so eager for the position.

by Anonymousreply 1604/07/2011

What a ridiculous statement, r15, and completely untrue. If you really think killers in any other case with the exact same circumstances would have been paroled after 20 years, you're a bigger idiot than you seem.

Please name a murder case of the savagery of the Manson case in which the killer was paroled after 20 years.

by Anonymousreply 1704/07/2011

I think the most fascinating thing about these murders is the mind control cult Manson created.

It's scary to think that people followed someone as obviously crazy as Manson, but none of them were overachievers going in.

From what I've read, Manson really understood how to use drugs and sex to break people's self-will.

by Anonymousreply 1804/07/2011

Some of them like Linda Kasabian (who didn't participate in the murders, and who broke with the group) were brainwashed, but I think others among them just really wanted a leader to bring out the rottenness within them.

I don't think Tex or Atkins or Krenwinkle were innocent of what they did. They did it happily and with great relish.

by Anonymousreply 1904/07/2011

It's not just that it was a group of killers. That happens all the time with drug deals gone bad, people "in the game", or something like that. This was a band of psychos who roamed around together torturing and killing ANYONE they felt like.

by Anonymousreply 2004/07/2011

Tex Watson and Steve Grogan (who has been on parole since 1985)were the worst, I think. Grogan beheaded Shorty Shea on Manson's orders and also was arrested at one point for child molestation, I think. %0D %0D

by Anonymousreply 2104/07/2011

I never completely bought Linda's innocent act. Bugliosi needed a sympathetic cooperator who looked "innocent" to the jury. Rather than question her convenient claims of just being an onlooker he was all too happy to accept them because it suited his purpose. %0D %0D Bugliosi didn't so blindly accept Leslie's consistent claims that she was reluctant to stab Rosemary and did so only after being repeately urged to do so and after she thought Rosemary was already dead. Leslie was of no use to Bugliosi because she wasn't ready to break with Charlie yet while Linda had already done so. Thus her equally plausible/implausible [take your pick] explanation for her behavior was disputed while Linda's was accepted.

by Anonymousreply 2204/07/2011

Linda was busted in the 90s as a meth dealer in New Hampshire.%0D %0D

by Anonymousreply 2304/07/2011

Linda Kasabian is from my hometown.%0D %0D Should I organize a parade in her honor??

by Anonymousreply 2404/07/2011

How many fucking Manson threads do we need a year, every year over and over and over again?

R11, some of us don't spend ALL OUR TIME on this site and perhaps are unaware of past threads on this (or any other) topic. Sounds to me like it is time for someone to get a life.

by Anonymousreply 2504/07/2011

Because the killings represent the end of the 60's and the zeitgeist turning in on itself into something very dark and cancerous. All the idealism and Dionysian ecstasy was used for the most sinister of purposes. It shook everyone's faith in the Age of Aquarius and ushered in the emotional bleakness of the 70's.

Also many DL posters were kids when it happened, so it made a permanent imprint on our psyches. It was everyone's worse nightmare come true.

by Anonymousreply 2604/07/2011

I agree with you R26. And so many other events contributed to the end of that era. The peace and love of Woodstock became legendary overnight. Almost as quickly, along come Altamont, reputed to be the mirror image, the evil twin that tarnished the summer of love.

Janis Joplin died.

Jimi Hendrix died.

Jim Morrison died.

The Beatles broke up.

All this big BOOMER events happened in a short span of a few years. Whether or not they should have been big events doesn't matter. They were.

by Anonymousreply 2704/07/2011

I was in college when this happened. It was pretty shockiong. Remember this was before we had breaking up to the minute news and entertainment reports. Anything we heard we got on the 6 PM newscasts or the newspapers.%0D Polanski had a big hit the previous summer with ROSEMARY'S BABY. Tate had gotten noticed after her role in VALLEY OF THE DOLLS. Prior to that, she had appeared in Polanski's film THE FEARLESS VAMPIRE KILLERS or: Pardon Me, But Your Teeth are in my Neck. She had posed for Playboy in a pictorial that was shot on the set of that movie.%0D The murders were high profile due to the horrific nature of the crimes. And after the LoBionco murders the next night, the people of%0D Los Angeles were freaking out.%0D Big news for months... and this was before the trial after the Manson family was caught.%0D Freaky stuff.%0D And to cash in on it all.. the next spring when the trial was going on 20th Century reissued VALLEY OF THE DOLLS on a double bill.. with PLANET OF THE APES.%0D %0D What R27 said...And let's not forget, Judy Garland died a few months before the Manson murders...%0D strange times, the times were a changin'

by Anonymousreply 2804/07/2011

[quote]Also many DL posters were kids when it happened, so it made a permanent imprint on our psyches. It was everyone's worse nightmare come true.%0D %0D TRUE!!

by Anonymousreply 2904/07/2011

I always found the Manson murders interesting because I think it's obvious that without Manson's influence, none of his "followers" would have ever killed anyone.%0D %0D What Manson did is reveal the capacity for evil that resides in way too many people. Nazi Germany was interesting for the same reason.

by Anonymousreply 3004/07/2011

I think Tex Watson was more of a driving force behind the murders than has been acknowledged. Manson took credit after the fact to retain control of the group (and went out the next night to assert his leadership.)

1975 interview with Manson girl Sherry Cooper. Scary level of detachment.

by Anonymousreply 3104/07/2011

Can't have a Sharon Tate thread without this...

by Anonymousreply 3204/07/2011

I was unworthy of Charlie's Love.

by Anonymousreply 3304/07/2011

The movie Shampoo is actually about Sharon Tate and Jay Sebring, with Goldie Hawn and Warren Beatty as characters based on them.

The morose vibe during the movie suggests something unfathomable is on the horizon.

by Anonymousreply 3404/07/2011

We still deal with these freaks because Boomers control the media and everything that happened in their lifespan was the BIGGEST and the FIRST and the MOST IMPORTANT.

by Anonymousreply 3504/07/2011

Diane Sawyer, by far.

by Anonymousreply 3604/07/2011

Another Sharon Tate story.

by Anonymousreply 3704/07/2011

When I get to the bottom I go back to the top of the slide. Still.

by Anonymousreply 3804/07/2011

Joanna Pettet had been there for lunch that day with another friend.%0D %0D But it's a Hollywood parlor game with all the celebs who claimed they were invited that night - and never were. John Phillips, Barbara Parkins, Elke Sommer, Jacqueline Susann, etc. Apparently Tate had only planned on Sebring coming over to swim, and later the foursome went to eat and right back to the house. There's been a weird pub crawl from the El Coyote restaurant they went to, and then a tour to Cielo Drive that is an offbeat tourist attraction. The house has been torn down though, so people just see the original gate to the new house on the property. %0D %0D

by Anonymousreply 3904/07/2011

I used to find the case interesting, but it proved to be a Datalounge obsession and I no longer have any interest in it because of the repetitiveness.%0D %0D It's like a movie you used to like, but saw one too many times.

by Anonymousreply 4004/08/2011

Yeah, this subject usually comes up here for its anniversary.

by Anonymousreply 4104/08/2011

The "party" supposedly held at the house that night is one of the big myths of the case. There was no party. But the in competent LAPD spent a lot of time investigating the non-event. %0D %0D It's hilarious how many celebrities claimed to have been invited to the house that night. They all say something like "I was invited to a party there that night, but I couldn't go because (fill in the blank)" or "at the last minute I decided not to go." Why would they say bullshit like that? For publicity? Why would anyone want to associate themselves with a ghastly murder? It doesn't make sense to me.

by Anonymousreply 4204/08/2011

Thats like asking "How many treads do we need about the Holocost a year". Maybe so people don't forget. When we have assholes who think the Manson clan are political prisoners and assholes who think the Holocost never happened it's important to remember.

by Anonymousreply 4304/08/2011

42 Years ago today. RIP Sharon, Jay, Voltek, Abigail, Steven and Baby P.

by Anonymousreply 4408/09/2011

There's a story in Helter Skelter about Manson wanting the Tate crew to kill someone else, who lived in an apartment building at the beach. Kasabian directed them to the wrong apartment, so no one got hurt, but as they were leaving, Sadie took a dump in a stairwell.

by Anonymousreply 4508/09/2011

I've always wondered about Kasabian..... I think she did more than she let on to. Ever seen her on TV? Very, very weird. Almost like she gets off on the fame. %0D %0D %0D Patricia is in the prison not far from my home. I wonder if she even knows what today is.

by Anonymousreply 4608/09/2011

This... Right here. Weird. %0D %0D %0D The entire part about Vincent having to say Linda is a nice girl. Freaky!

by Anonymousreply 4708/09/2011

Almost as many people were "supposed" to be at that house that night as there were "supposed" to be on Buddy Holly's plane.

by Anonymousreply 4808/09/2011

One of the Manson girls admitted, if she had the time, she would have cut Sharon's baby out.

These people were despicable.

Weren't they all on acid when they committed the murders, weren't they trying to use that as a defense? That they were unaware of what they were doing because of the acid and whatever other drugs they were on?

by Anonymousreply 4908/09/2011

I just watched several interviews and newscasts from 69-75 and they all claim it was the drugs. %0D %0D %0D Um, bitches, I've done every drug they mentioned in my 20s and I never killed ten people, let alone one. %0D %0D %0D Here is the newscast from that morning.

by Anonymousreply 5008/09/2011

The interesting character in all of this is Candace Bergen, rumored to be, with Terry Melcher, to be the true targets that night. Melcher was supposed to help Charlie get a recrd deal or something, and welshed.

Bergen has never said a word about the killings.

I was a little kid in Hollywood, but I remember the types of people many of the victims (and those who thought they could be victims) were. They really believed they were magical and anointed by Zeitgeist. They were no different from the similar types that followed -- now seen mostly on Wall Street. They wander around in clouds of self-love until a Charlie or something like him appears, and then they run screaming for cover. Next, they force their "plight" on the public as iconic and their self-importance blooms again.

by Anonymousreply 5108/09/2011

The Melcher connection is because of the time Manson spent living at Dennis Wilson of the Beach Boys' home. That is how he met Melcher. %0D %0D He showed up in March/April looking for Terry and they basically chased him away. He never forgot that and then went back in August to pay them back.

by Anonymousreply 5208/09/2011

I grew up in the 70s and the Mansons and the Zodiac killer - those were the true boogiemen of my nightmares. These vicious killers who attacked people without motive. That still makes me shuder. Random acts of complete cruelty for cruelty's sake.

by Anonymousreply 5308/09/2011

And when I say "shuder", I mean shudder.

by Anonymousreply 5408/09/2011

None of them were on drugs the nights of the murders. They were on a mission and were prepared to carry it out, and they knew in order to do it they could not be fucked up on drugs.%0D %0D It wasn't that Manson was such a charismatic, dynamic personality with the ability to change average young hippies into crazed killers. Oh no. The Manson family members were fucked up long before they met Charlie. Much is said about how "normal" Tex Watson and Leslie Van Houten and Patricia Krenwinkle were before they hooked up with Charlie. Tex had been a football star, Leslie was Homecoming Queen, Patricia was active in church. But they all degenerated into druggie, slovenly losers, and that was BEFORE they met him. In "Helter Skelter" Vincent Bugliosi said that all of the Manson family killers had "some inner flaw...apart from Charlie."%0D %0D And yes, it does state in Bugliosi's book that Susan Adkins took a shit on the landing of the building where they had gone to kill somebody.

by Anonymousreply 5508/09/2011

"None of them were on drugs the nights of the murders. They were on a mission and were prepared to carry it out, and they knew in order to do it they could not be fucked up on drugs."

IIRC, in Ed Sanders book "The Family", he said they were on acid. Then again, I read it so long ago.....

by Anonymousreply 5608/09/2011

Acid is groovy!

by Anonymousreply 5708/09/2011

John Waters included a chapter in his shit book "Role Models' that Leslie van Houten is reformed and should be given parole - of course, she wasn't

some crimes are unforgivable and he should be ashamed of himself for defending her

by Anonymousreply 5808/09/2011

Here is a pic just days before the murders. The pic is taken by one of the victims!

by Anonymousreply 5908/09/2011

R55... There is an interview with Susan from 1975 where she talks about what drugs they claimed to be on that night. Speed, Coke and Acid. %0D %0D Not that I believe it, but then again... you don't really know. Nobody knows but them.

by Anonymousreply 6008/09/2011

r58 You're missing the point. Did you even read Waters' book? She has long since served out the typical sentence for her crime. She has reformed herself in prison and done all she can to apologize for her crime. If it weren't for the unrelenting, exploitative media focus on this case, she would have been paroled a long time ago.

by Anonymousreply 6108/09/2011

some crimes are unforgivable and he should be ashamed of himself for defending her%0D %0D She has been in jail for 40 years for a crimne she committed as a minor. If the criminal justice system is about rehabilitation AND punishment then I don't think it shameful at all to suggest she should be paroled.%0D %0D

by Anonymousreply 6208/09/2011

[quote]She has long since served out the typical sentence for her crime

Remind me again what the typical sentence is for someone who participates in the torture-murder of two people?

[quote]She has been in jail for 40 years for a crimne she committed as a minor.

She wasn't a minor. She was two weeks shy of her twentieth birthday.

by Anonymousreply 6308/09/2011

[quote]She has been in jail for 40 years for a crimne she committed as a minor.%0D %0D %0D Leslie was 19, a few weeks away from being 20. She wasn't a minor.

by Anonymousreply 6408/09/2011

I do not get the folks that say they should be released... Let's just release Charlie. After all, he didn't kill anybody that we can prove. :rollseyes: %0D %0D %0D The fact is, they were sentenced to the death penalty. They should all be dead. Due to the death penalty being made illegal, it was commuted to life in prison. They have not served their time. If they want out, send them to the electric chair!

by Anonymousreply 6508/09/2011

[quote]Thats like asking "How many treads do we need about the Holocost a year"

Yes, the cost of the holo is increasing all the time.

by Anonymousreply 6608/09/2011

Puh-leeeze. Do you clowns actually think that one can really be brainwashed? What a bunch of maroons.

by Anonymousreply 6708/09/2011

dayuuum - check out Sebring's bulge at r59's link. You basically see his cock.

by Anonymousreply 6808/09/2011

Thank you, R68. I didn't want to to say it first. Sebring has a nice cock...Er, HAD a nice cock. What a waste.

by Anonymousreply 6908/09/2011

r51 stopped short of saying the victims deserved what they got but you can tell it's killing him/her.

I can't decide if you're scary or just contemptible but do seek professional help, r51.

by Anonymousreply 7008/09/2011

Didn't I read that the reason Linda was driving the car was because she was the only one who had a valid driver's license?

Tex fled to his hometown in Texas after the murders and they were very reluctant to extradite him back to California for trial. His family was very influential in his town and he was considered just a good ole boy there. He made the most of his incarceration, married, had several children and I believe, he has become some sort of preacher while in prison. He was a favorite sexual partner of the girls during their orgies.

by Anonymousreply 7108/09/2011

I should have read his Wiki entry before posting. He is now divorced. Not a preacher, but has convinced himself that God has forgiven him for his part in the murders.

by Anonymousreply 7208/09/2011

Tex was very hot

by Anonymousreply 7308/09/2011

I don't care how rehabilitated they've become or how sorry they claim they are, nothing can make up for what they did. None of them should ever walk free again. The fact that they have been allowed to get married and have sex with their spouses while in prison is outrageous.

by Anonymousreply 7408/09/2011

Yes, r68. I know it's hard to comprehend, but, yes, we had cocks back then too.

by Anonymousreply 7508/09/2011

they all should have been executed.

by Anonymousreply 7608/09/2011

John Waters is a fool and a jackass for lionizing van Houten. I'm glad she's a model prisoner. She can do a lot of good in prison. The idea that other people have gone free for crimes like hers is ridiculous. Most murders are crimes of passion in the heat of the moment. In her case, she was one of a bunch of freaks who plotted murders for fun, carried them out after torturing their victims, and then mocked everyone who tried to hold a mirror up to them to show what they'd done.

Waters was drawn to her because she was glamorous and did evil things. He's a vapid idiot.

by Anonymousreply 7708/09/2011

Tex watson is more evil than Manson. krenwinkle was the most savage of the girls

by Anonymousreply 7808/09/2011

Krenwinkle looks like a man.

by Anonymousreply 7908/09/2011

I always thought Susan Atkins was the most savage.

by Anonymousreply 8008/09/2011

What is interesting is that Manson was quite well known to the LA music scene. Neil Young knew him--as did others. He was not someone who was unknown. %0D %0D Correct me if I am wrong--the Melcher theory was disporven years ago, iirc. I thought that Manson targeted the Tate group to take attention away from a killing he was involved in. The idea was that the LAPD would think that the killings had a racial motive. He chose the Tate place since he knew it.%0D %0D I could be wrong. I remember reading this so long ago.

by Anonymousreply 8108/09/2011

savage=flyover adjective du hour.

by Anonymousreply 8208/09/2011

[quote]Kristin Svege did divorce her husband, Charles, but it wasn't because she met another man, it was because of some of his actions in prison that wasn't becoming of someone who claimed to be what 'he' claimed to be. (Whether Charles is truly walking with God at this time is between him and God, details of what he did I won't mention out of respect for his ministry. Suffice it to say her reasons were well grounded in the word) Her reasons were those that the Bible would say were grounds for divorce. It wasn't an easy decision for her and she struggled with it for several years. She realized the impact it would be on the children and that made it difficult. At the same time she could not ignore the immorality and claim to be living her life in honesty as if everything was as it should be. %0D %0D %0D %0D %0D %0D I wonder what tex did that was so immoral? I mean, I would have thought murdering people was the first clue.

by Anonymousreply 8308/09/2011

Has anyone been to the spahn ranch location in chatsworth? talk about creepy!!!

by Anonymousreply 8408/09/2011

It is believe that there are bodies buried on the Spahn ranch that have yet to be discovered.

by Anonymousreply 8508/09/2011

Jay Sebring (real name: Thomas Kummer) explains it all for you!

by Anonymousreply 8608/10/2011

Patricia Krenwinkle looks just like Elaine Stritch.

by Anonymousreply 8708/10/2011

If anybody wants to watch a good lil' documentary about it. %0D %0D %0D I went on this guys tour. He does morbid little tours in LA. I've gone on a few. The Helter Skelter one was fascinating. The gentlemen in the video used to date Graham Norton.

by Anonymousreply 8808/10/2011

There is also a Ghost Hunters episode on the house where Sharon was killed with the ghost recordings of their voices, it's chilling.

by Anonymousreply 8908/10/2011


by Anonymousreply 9008/10/2011

r81, the alternate theory is this was a drug hit, pure and simple.

Manson and his followers were used by higher level traffickers because they were not traceable to them. Middle-class society was afraid of and despised 'hippies'.

The LaBianca murders were the same. In that case, I think it was the wife with the habit. The husband was also rumoured to have shady business connections.

BTW, that was also the reason Manson was known on the fringes of Hollywood.

Biker gangs with satanic elements (some authors claim the Process was involved) were the traffickers.

by Anonymousreply 9108/10/2011

Julie. She was such a cunt.

by Anonymousreply 9208/10/2011

r91 there is some truth to that, but the Manson family were heavily into santanism

by Anonymousreply 9308/10/2011

R89- I've seen that episode. Scared the shit out of me. %0D %0D %0D R91- Rosemary LaBianca had a side business dealing drugs. Rumor is that Volchek sold drugs too with Mama Cass' boyfriend. Additionally, Rosemary LaBianca sold wigs and so did Sebring. %0D %0D There are all sorts of weird connections between all of them... Rosemary LaBianca's boyfriend hung with Manson, etc. %0D %0D %0D I don't think we'll ever know the entire story or everything as to why these people were targeted.

by Anonymousreply 9408/10/2011


The only frightening thing about that episode is the fugly, hulking monstrosity the property owner built over the original home (which was a charming cottage-type house from the silent-film era).

by Anonymousreply 9508/10/2011

Why wouldn't have that come out in the trial r94? Or did it?

It puts a different spin on it if it was all about drug deals gone bad, instead of random murders and depravity.

by Anonymousreply 9608/10/2011

The house in the Ghost Hunters house isn't actually the house that replaced the Sharon Tate House, but a new one that was built a couple of houses down on Cielo Drive.

However, the Tate House replacement IS a monstrosity that no one still wants - I believe it's used as some kind of conference center now. The tree on the far left is the only part of the original property that's still there.

by Anonymousreply 9708/10/2011

So what did those ghost hunters hear there?

by Anonymousreply 9808/10/2011


Omg, that's even worse. What's wrong with people?

by Anonymousreply 9908/10/2011

Well they didn't top the atrocities committed 42 years ago at Cielo Drive but they sure tried with the new "house" they built on it.

by Anonymousreply 10008/10/2011

I would haunt that "conference center" too knowing that they had torn down my home for that thing.

by Anonymousreply 10108/10/2011

My guess is that they wanted to get as far away from the Tate house design as possible (which they did) - so no cottage design, or California ranch design, and they made it big and seemingly impervious to intruders.

But it didn't help. They still couldn't sell it. I mean, even if it were beautiful, would you want to live on that lot?

by Anonymousreply 10208/11/2011

I have a piece of the original fireplace from the prior house. I always wonder if there is any Sharon DNA on it.

by Anonymousreply 10308/12/2011

Spahn Ranch burned down in a wildfire in 1970.

Barker Ranch, where the Family hid out in the desert was searched in 2008 for additional bodies, Both Sharon's surviving sister Debra Tate and former Manon follower Catherine Gypsy Share believed that there were additional bodies there, but the search was kind of hamstrung by both the Inyo County Sheriff, who didn't want them there, and since parts of the Ranch are now part of Death Valley National Park, the National Park police drove them off when they appeared to find Native American artifacts there.

In 2009, the ranch house, included the cabinet Charlie tried to hide from the cops in, burned to the ground.

All the interviews that I've seen, especially the History Channel's 40th anniversary special with interviews with Bugliosi, Debra Tate, Linda, and Gypsy, I came away thinking three things: I do believe Linda was telling the truth, because if she wasn't she's a much better actor that people give her credit for, Gypsy is the most penitent, and while I'm not much for Jesus, it's clear her conversion to Christianity helped her a lot (she even looked better), and while I don't blame Debra Tate for the way she feels, she will go to her grave hating each and every Family member.

There was one moving part where Linda confessed she still didn't understand why she wasn't punished too, and Debra viciously said the same thing.

by Anonymousreply 10408/13/2011

I sent Debra a rather harsh email. %0D %0D %0D She is supposedly a victim's rights advocate, but..... There she was on national television saying Roman Polanski didn't do anything wrong because sex with the 13 year old was consensual. %0D %0D Um, Pardon? %0D %0D A 13 year old cannot make that decision. Does this mean her sister's murder was consensual too because she did as her attackers asked and was killed? No. She can't have it both ways, she needs to stop being a hypocrite.

by Anonymousreply 10508/13/2011

A tot mom's life cut tragically short, before she even had the baby. She was white and she was a victim. That's all I need to get me through 4 shows....

by Anonymousreply 10608/13/2011

She was butchered and thrown away like a piece of trash! Triple bagged like garbage!

by Anonymousreply 10708/13/2011

I could swear that I read somewhere that the LoBianco killings were a "mistake." Charlie went to the wrong house. He was looking for the house next door, but he drove up the wrong driveway. The house next to the LoBianco's was a drug house and Charlie felt that he had been burned by the people who were renting it and went there to exact some kind of revenge.

Once he realized his mistake, it was too late and the murders took place anyway.

It might be in "Helter Skelter"...I'll have to try to find the book and check it out.

by Anonymousreply 10808/13/2011

Paraphrasing from something Paul McCartney said once, Leslie Van Houten should remain behind bars for as long as Rosemary and Leno LaBianca remain dead.

by Anonymousreply 10908/13/2011

Doris Tate confronted Tex watson at his parole hearing I will post the youtube vid. She rocked!

by Anonymousreply 11008/13/2011

here is Doris giving Tex a piece of her mind

by Anonymousreply 11108/13/2011

Wow. Doris Tate was a hell of a woman.

I remember reading that, in the days before metal detectors became just part courthouse life, the prosecutors and the bailiffs were afraid that Paul Tate was going to walk into the courtroom and start shooting.

I always find it....darkly amusing, I guess, that the bailiff in the Manson trial was Rusty Burrell, who was Judge Wapner's bailiff on The People's Court.

As I recall, it was due to Doris Tate's advocacy that the California Penal System changed its rules and forbade conjugal visits for convicted murders.

by Anonymousreply 11208/13/2011

yeah Doris also believed that sharon was not the intended target. someone tipped off manson or tex that she was not at home due to her car being in the shop

by Anonymousreply 11308/13/2011

But then who would have been the target? Terry Melcher had moved out, and Manson knew that. Rudi Altobelli was out of the country.

by Anonymousreply 11408/13/2011

Why didn't Larry Tate ask Darren Stevens if his wife could resurrect Sharon?

by Anonymousreply 11508/13/2011

[quote] Paraphrasing from something Paul McCartney said once, Leslie Van Houten should remain behind bars for as long as Rosemary and Leno LaBianca remain dead

Paul McCartney never said any such thing.

The only comments he has made regarding the killings is to scoff at the idea that there were coded messages in Beatles songs about drugs and/or racial murders. He said Helter Skelter is about a children's slide in a park. He has denied that Beatle music had anything to do with Manson's insane interpretations, thus the music was not to blame for the murders.

It was someone at a parole hearing for Manson family members who said they should be incarcerated for as long as the victims remain dead.

by Anonymousreply 11608/13/2011

He was talking about Mark David Chapman, R116.

by Anonymousreply 11708/13/2011

Interesting side note -- everyone who discovered the LaBiancas had had run-ins with the police.

Joe Doegan, the fianc%C3%A9 of Rosemary LaBianca's daughter Suzan Struthers, had been arrested for drug possession. Suzan Stuthers had been arrested and detained on suspicion of stealing and using someone else's credit card (while in the company of fianc%C3%A9 Joe Dorgan) but charges were dropped when Leno stepped in and made restitution to the victim.

Frank Struthers, Rosemary's 15 year old son, had been arrested while riding as a passenger in a stolen vehicle.

Rosemary LaBianca disapproved of Joe Dorgan and fought with her daughter about her relationship with him.

Police investigated several friends of Frank Struthers who had made statements of animosity towards the LaBiancas. Two of those friends were exonerated because they were incarcerated in juvenile hall at the time of the murders. Another two were exonerated after their fingerprints were discounted from the crime scene.

Kind of weird how Rosemary's kids, although quite well-off by the standards of the day, were in trouble with the law and hung out with lawbreakers.

by Anonymousreply 11808/13/2011

[quote]Kind of weird how Rosemary's kids, although quite well-off by the standards of the day, were in trouble with the law and hung out with lawbreakers.

I don't see how that's unusual at all, actually.

by Anonymousreply 11908/13/2011

There is a lot of misiinformation in this thread, but some good stuff as well. %0D %0D %0D I've been fascinated with this story for a while. I've no clue why. I wasn't born yet, I didn't find Miss Sharon a good actress, etc. Maybe it's because I've lived in SoCal my entire life and it's part of our history. I'm also a tad bit morbid, but a lot of us probably are just because death and such is quite an unknown..... the same reason somebody invented the idea of heaven. %0D %0D %0D %0D My other favorite murder to read about that is still not really solved is The Wonderland Murders. Probably because I've ran with people just like the folks involved in that one... drug dealers, drug users, a porn star (John Holmes in this case), etc. It's such a common LA thing, yet.... it's supposedly the bloodiest crime the LAPD ever dealt with. They don't call if "four on the floor" for nothing.

by Anonymousreply 12008/14/2011

Charles was definitely the worse! Charles Tex Watson that is, who did all the killing by his own admission! Manson wasn't at any crime scene and isn't responsible for anyone's death.

If people want to debate a fairy tale go ahead but if you want to intelligently debate the facts, try using something other than Helter Skelter as a reference.

by Anonymousreply 12105/16/2012

The Candy Mossler trial was another headline-maker, although it's mostly forgotten today.

by Anonymousreply 12205/16/2012

R120 The Wonderland murders was the first time the police used videotape to catalog a crime scene.

My ex and I drove by there a few years ago. She was from out of town, so I took her to all the Hollywood crime scenes, i,e., Tate, Bugsy, Melendez, etc.

by Anonymousreply 12305/16/2012

I read yet another weird theory that the LAPD lagged on doing anything about the Manson family at Spahn Ranch due to drug dispersement, or even using the family as a 'booby trap' for the Age of Aquarius kids. Fear of and respect for 'authority' was at an all-time low, and the powers that be assumed those Manson kids would soon be fucking up and fucking up big. The theory goes the cops assumed they would be killing other hippies, not famous, rich public figures. Considering everybody's synchronistic involvement with black magic/Satanism (Sammy, say it isn't so!) in Los Angeles at the time, I sometimes consider 'unseen forces' as a guiding factor.

by Anonymousreply 12405/16/2012

[quote]Tex was very hot

This reminds me of an old joke:

Two gay guys are standing on a bridge over a river.

First guy: "Look down there, that guy, he's DROWNING?

Second guy: "Is he hot?"

by Anonymousreply 12505/16/2012

anyone ever been to the location of spahn?

by Anonymousreply 12605/16/2012

Tex and Bruce dAVIS WERE way more evil than manson

by Anonymousreply 12705/16/2012

Ever see this chick Emily Procter on CSI Miami? She looks so much like Sharon Tate.

by Anonymousreply 12805/16/2012

Of the three female co-defendants, Patricia Krenwinkel was definitely the worst. Susan Atkins was all talk, no action. People remember Susan's grand jury testimony where she confessed to stabbing Sharon Tate, although in reality, it was Tex Watson who did. Patricia Krenwinkel benefited from Atkins taking all of the attention, because it was she who was the most vicious and most involved in the violence. She butchered poor Abigail Folger, helped stab Rosemary Labianca, and mutilated poor Leno Labianca with a dinner fork. Charles Manson was the closest to her of all the women, and she stayed loyal to him for years and years.

The Manson murders were all about drugs, drugs, drugs.

by Anonymousreply 12905/16/2012

Also, it's ironic that people remember the Manson murders as the "Charles Manson and Susan Atkins" crimes, when in reality, they were the Tex Watson and Patricia Krenwinkel murders.

by Anonymousreply 13005/16/2012

Yep also a satanic connection too. Sharon and Steve parent were not the targets, jay, abigail and voytek were

by Anonymousreply 13105/16/2012

So R131, I know Jay was seen at a Satanic style orgy by Sammy, but how were Abigail and Voytek allegedly involved in it?

by Anonymousreply 13205/16/2012

gibby and voytek were heavily involved with drugs

by Anonymousreply 13305/16/2012

bruce davis is the zodiac killer

by Anonymousreply 13405/16/2012

How, R133? I mean selling or heavy use?

by Anonymousreply 13505/16/2012

R131 is correct. Jay, Voytek and to a lesser extent, Abigail, were the true targets of the Cielo Drive butchery. All of them were extensively into using drugs, and both Jay and Voytek were starting to deal (huge shipments of MDMA, pot, etc.).

Poor little Steven Parent. Truly at the wrong place at the wrong time. 18 year old gay boy just trying to hook up with the Cielo Drive houseboy (William Garretson) . . . oops, I mean sell him a "clock radio" at 11:40 p.m. I've always felt the worst for him.

by Anonymousreply 13605/16/2012

Thanks for this data. So they were dealing drugs and the Process church or Charlie himself wanted to settle a score after a bad deal or something? I read when Charlie and the girls stayed at Dennis Wilson's house, the bills for the grocery deliveries had grown extremely high and he abandoned the house to them. They sound pretty gross. I think the beauties showed up for the trial.

by Anonymousreply 13705/16/2012

R134, I'm not sure I believe that Bruce Davis is the Zodiac killer, but there are scary, undeniable links between the Manson Murders, the Zodiac, the Process Church of Final Judgment, satanism and [later on] the Son of Sam.

Manson himself quiets down whenever the Process Church has been mentioned to him.

It is as if the gates of hell had opened up in California in '68, '69.

by Anonymousreply 13805/16/2012

Were these organized rituals or just crazy shit happening at once? I try to think of The Source Family as the antidote to the Process/Manson Family. Relatively speaking.

by Anonymousreply 13905/16/2012

r136 and sharon tate!

by Anonymousreply 14005/16/2012

R139, my theory is that they were organized (orders given). Read the "Ultimate Evil" by Terry Maury. It is mostly about the Son of Sam murders (and how David Berkowitz did NOT act alone), but it definitely explores connections between the Manson Murders/Zodiac and the SUPER creepy murder of Arlis Perry in a Stanford University chapel.

Lots of satanism/occult activity in those 60's/70's years. In fact, in Los Angeles (the occult capital of the Americas) there still is. There are areas of the Angeles forest and other canyons that I will simply dare not go to.

by Anonymousreply 14105/17/2012

Charles Manson has a couple of kids. One of whom lived near my small town in Wisconsin. This is also where Phil Hartman's kids went to live after their mother killed their father. Jeffrey Dahmer's mom also lived in the area. Chippewa Falls/Eau Claire.

by Anonymousreply 14205/17/2012

Weird r142

by Anonymousreply 14305/17/2012

[quote]Charles Manson has a couple of kids. One of whom lived near my small town in Wisconsin.

Was that Pooh Bear, the son he had with Mary Brunner?

by Anonymousreply 14405/17/2012

yes and by all accounts he was a really nice guy. He seems pretty together here.

by Anonymousreply 14505/17/2012

Oh and that's Harvey Levin interviewing him. Classy as always.

by Anonymousreply 14605/17/2012

I had read that Sharon Tate's home was haunted before their tragic murders, and that she would walk down her stairs and see ghosts in the living room.

She spoke of these hauntings to a friend, and felt as if they were some sort for forewarning.

by Anonymousreply 14705/17/2012

r147, you are almost correct, except it was Jay Sebring's home she saw ghosts and herself dead at the end of the stairs

by Anonymousreply 14805/17/2012

R141, the danger is mostly in gangs who roam the canyons making drug deals, hiding out, spraying graffiti, and other nefarious activities. The gangs are enough to scare any weirdo satan worshippers out of their wits. And there are helicopter patrols over the canyons. It's always interesting to hear of pot being grown within the state parks. How they get away with it is amazing.

I think the biggest problem area is within the San Gabriel mountains.

by Anonymousreply 14905/17/2012

I just watched the video with Mrs. Tate, which was great. Thanks for the link.

I would like to speak to those who are interested as to why this particular case holds - and continues to hold - such interest (and I don't believe this is true only for the DL community).

Yes, many of us who post and write here were children at that time, and it WAS the worst nightmare to consider, so to repeat a comment already mentioned, I think there is an element of this being forever marked within our brains.

Yes, the whole Hollywood connection.

Yes, the beautiful Sharon Tate who was pregnant and the back and forth comments about the gruesome death and whether or not her baby was cut out (it wasn't, but what a great thing for a kid to wonder about).

But then there is the fact that Charles Manson was the first person in California (perhaps in the US) who was ever convicted for a murder that he was actually even present at - he didn't even physically show up at the Polanski/Tate residence.

And my final point regarding the interest - I think the book that Vincent Bugliosi wrote: "Helter Skelter" (along with - obviously - "In Cold Blood" by Truman Capote)is one of the great all time true crime books. I had the opportunity to hear him talk some years after the OJ trial, and he was absolutely fascinating. He was very honest in his disdain for the shoddy work/antics the DA did in handling OJ's case, and his work ethic - and his determination to find justice was very moving. That determination and personal interest is very apparent throughout the book, and I believe the book still holds up today. It's a fascinating story.

As for the worst of the killers: my vote goes to Susan Atkins, who told Sharon Tate she didn't have any mercy for her (as she begged for her life and the life of her unborn son) and who orgasmed at her death. They were all sadistic freaked out killers, but I think her actions were particularly gruesome.

by Anonymousreply 15005/17/2012

Squeaky was the worst. Can you imagine MISSING Ford?

by Anonymousreply 15105/18/2012

They interviewed Charles Manson about a couple of years ago. He said that he was at party once ,and Jane Fonda, Peter Sellers, and Yul Brynner came in carrying a camera asking if anyone wanted to join Peter and Yul to screw Jane on camera.

by Anonymousreply 15205/18/2012

WHET Zezozose Zadrack Glutz?

by Anonymousreply 15305/18/2012

The Process Church or whatever they were called had very disturbing graphics. Nothing 'faux' or 'hipster' about it. I'm not exactly sure what Charlie had to do with them. Los Angeles has always had witchy underpinnings.

by Anonymousreply 15405/18/2012

R55. it almost sounds as if Mittens would fit in that crowd.

And a judge Wapner connection?!

by Anonymousreply 15505/18/2012

Impeccable face

by Anonymousreply 15601/13/2013

It's unfair to put Charles Manson in jail when he didn't kill anyone.

by Anonymousreply 15701/13/2013

R157....are you serious?

by Anonymousreply 15801/13/2013

"R157, are you serious?"

Probably not. There are a lot of dumb trolls who say stuff like that just to get a rise out of people. There are several of them on this thread.

by Anonymousreply 15901/13/2013

R159 yes, i see...

What a pity, though.

by Anonymousreply 16001/13/2013

It's incredible that a woman killed Sharon Tate. That thought chills my heart, i can't understand it.

by Anonymousreply 16101/13/2013

Sharon was not even a bitch. She wasn't stuck up with people. She just got murdered because she was famous and breathtakingly beautiful.

by Anonymousreply 16201/13/2013

Some people's fate is so unpredictable

by Anonymousreply 16301/13/2013

My dear DataLoungers, you want to know what people who knew Sharon Tate thought of her?

by Anonymousreply 16401/13/2013

Well why is he in jail? Who did he kill? If I tell you to kill someone and you're stupid enough to do it, why should I go to jail. Maybe he was joking.

He didn't actually kill anyone. How many other people were put on death row without killing anyone? Name them dumb asses, name them.

by Anonymousreply 16501/13/2013

"He didn't actually kill anyone. How many other people were put on death row without killing anyone? Name them dumb asses, name them."

By your reasoning Hitler (I presume you've heard of him? Perhaps not.) also "didn't actually kill anyone." So I assume you also regard him as not guilty of any crime.

You are a retard. Case closed.

by Anonymousreply 16601/13/2013

"Jay, Voytek and to a lesser extent, Abigail, were the true targets of the Cielo Drive butchery. All of them were extensively into using drugs, and both Jay and Voytek were starting to deal (huge shipments of MDMA, pot, etc.).

Poor little Steven Parent. Truly at the wrong place at the wrong time. 18 year old gay boy just trying to hook up with the Cielo Drive houseboy (William Garretson) . . . oops, I mean sell him a "clock radio" at 11:40 p.m. I've always felt the worst for him."

You are such an insane retarded asshole. It's been documented many times that Frykowski and Sebring simply recreational drug users. Frykowski was just a dumb clod who liked to get high a lot; Sebring did drugs but to no great extent. You must also believe in the mythical "Jamaican hip to voodoo" who supposedly slaughtered everyone in the house "during a ritual mock execution that got out of hand during the glare of hallucinogens." Yeah, I'm sure you believe that, you dumbass.

As for Steven Parent...well, he worked two jobs. One of them was part-time, EVENINGS, as a salesman for a stereo shop. He didn't stop by Garretson's place for a quickie butt-fuck; he went there to sell a piece of electronic equipment. "Poor little Steven Parent", indeed. Slandered by a fucktard douchebag on a gossip site.

by Anonymousreply 16701/13/2013

I have no idea why some insane nutjob is saying that Steven Parent was gay and had a sex hookup with William Garretson. This is what William Garretson had to say about the night Stephen Parent came over:

"About a quarter of twelve or something like that, Steve came up and, you know, he brought his radio with him. He had a radio, clock radio; and I didn't expect him or anything, and he asked me how I'd been and everything..." Parent plugged in the radio, to demonstrate how it worked, but Parent wasn't interested.

Then "I gave him a beer...and he drank it and then he called somebody, somebody on Santa Monica and Doheny, and he said that he would be going there, and so then he left, and, you know, that's when...that's the last time I saw him."

The above info is from the polygraph examination Garretson went under after the murders. It was determined he was telling the truth.

by Anonymousreply 16801/13/2013

Sharon Tate was so beautiful and sensual

by Anonymousreply 16901/15/2013

Natural beautiful

by Anonymousreply 17001/15/2013

Sharon Tate with Mia Farrow

by Anonymousreply 17101/15/2013

During the sentencing phase of the trial, Susan Atkins testified that she stabbed Tate. She stated that she had stabbed Tate because she was "sick of listening to her, pleading and begging, begging and pleading".

The word "PIG" was written in Tate's blood on the door. Prosecutors said Atkins did that and also tasted the actress's blood.

"She was the scariest of the Manson girls," said Stephen Kay, a former Los Angeles County deputy district attorney who helped prosecute the case and argued against Atkins' release at her parole hearings. "She was very violent."

by Anonymousreply 17201/15/2013

Sharon Tate was one of the most beautiful and sexy actresses ever.

by Anonymousreply 17301/15/2013

She should be remembered as a great great beauty and not as a victim of a wicked murder.

by Anonymousreply 17401/15/2013

No more wicked thoughts! Sharon was alive and most promising once and incredibly, incredibly beautiful, that's what matters and a murder cannot annihilate what existed once. There are memories of her before that murder took place.

by Anonymousreply 17501/15/2013

Atkins was incredibly unattractive.

by Anonymousreply 17601/15/2013

Okay, seriously, Sharon Tate troll don't you think you've spammed us with plenty of ST pics?

by Anonymousreply 17701/15/2013

You don't like them R177?

by Anonymousreply 17801/15/2013

Hon, I quit looking a long time ago. I think you have some serious fangurl issues. If she were still alive I would worry about you stalking her.

by Anonymousreply 17901/15/2013

Stop quitting...

Open your eyes to everything.

Flow with them

by Anonymousreply 18001/15/2013

No thanks ST troll.

by Anonymousreply 18101/15/2013

Open yourself to the past, drag it to your present and have wild and positive dreams for the future!

by Anonymousreply 18201/15/2013

She was so beautiful and those photos have a very timeless look.

by Anonymousreply 18301/15/2013

Entrancing Sharon Tate

by Anonymousreply 18401/16/2013

Totally natural in the photo below

by Anonymousreply 18501/16/2013

She was eight and a half months pregnant when she was killed

by Anonymousreply 18601/16/2013

Do any of you out their ever had any ghostly experiences?

by Anonymousreply 18701/16/2013

Don't see the photo below if you are not ready to see this beauty murdered, dead. It's an appalling photo, a contrast to the previous ones.

I warned you.

by Anonymousreply 18801/16/2013

Why did the AIDS infested homo cross the street?

Everybody on his side already had the AIDS

by Anonymousreply 18901/16/2013

I don't believe that a person should be stigmatized because they were murdered. It is shocking when we read about this kind of death and when we see that terrible photo of death, but Sharon Tate lived a part of her life and she was so beautiful and alive before that happened. We must remember her being alive. It's important.

We must resist. Crimes happened, terribly crimes will continue to happen. Keep a safe place in your heart for what once existed and don't be afraid to admit (at least to yourselves) that death is not and should not be the end.

by Anonymousreply 19001/16/2013

ST Troll, you're creepy. Leave that poor girl alone.

I'm surprised that there have been all these posts and all this speculation without any mention of Bobby Beausoleil. Supposedly, Bugliosi's theory of the crime was a hodge-podge of Manson ravings cobbled into a "motive" that didn't quite make sense.

Beausoleil hooked up with the Manson crowd, bringing his own bunch of girls. More attractive than Charlie, he also exerted control over "his" girls and shut Manson out. Some of Manson's girls were interested in Bobby, which infuriated Manson.

Beausoleil killed someone (Hinman) over a drug deal gone bad. He was in jail at the time of the Tate-LaBianca murders. Some of what Beausoleil did in the Hinman killing was repeated at the Tate-LaBianca crime scenes. Supposedly, Manson's plan was to take full control of the group and put Beausoleil in debt to him by staging copycat murders to free him. Obviously it didn't work but Beausoleil, who remains in prison doing life for murder, is a fascinating character in the whole Manson saga.

As for the Manson girls, I can't tell them apart and I don't really care. Lock them all up, throw away the keys, and throw away the keys for Charlie, Tex and Bobby while you're at it. Fucking maniacs.

by Anonymousreply 19101/16/2013

Beauty transcends death

by Anonymousreply 19201/16/2013

There were quite a few people killed by the Manson "family" Tate Troll.

You seem to think only Sharon Tate's death mattered and only she deserves to be remembered. I hope the rest of the murder victims haunt you.

by Anonymousreply 19301/16/2013

R193 Sharon was carrying a baby. You are cruel and sarcastic. I didn't imply that only Sharon's death mattered or she only deserves to be remembered. I happen to know some things about her and not about the other victims, that's why i paid this tribute to this beautiful woman. Stop twisting my intentions, please.

by Anonymousreply 19401/16/2013

[R168] Whether there was a hot summer midnight fling between William Garretson and Steve Parent will remain a mystery. This would have been shortly before the Manson gang arrived. Garretson in his polygraph exam admits to gay sex with an unidentified man. The property owner Rudi Altobelli, who rented the main house to the Polanskis, moved the unemployed drifter from Ohio from the Sunset Strip into his personal residence, which was the guest house at the back. Garretson was a good looking 19 year old with a nice smooth body. His pics from 1969 are on Images. It all may have been perfectly innocent with Parent trying to sell him a Sony Digimatic clock radio. Remember those with the flip over numbers? After a beer and saying good night his young life came to an end by those creeps, who caught him about to drive away. If he would have left ten minutes earlier he would have been through the gate and drove past the killers hiking up the hill. Fate.

by Anonymousreply 19503/22/2013

Oh right, a teenage Steven Parent (who is on record as having "homosexual tendencies" in a juvie report) drove all the way from El Monte to the Hollywood Hills to sell a clock-radio to another 19 year-old boy who also admitted to gay experiences near midnight on a Friday night. Talk about what a naive idiot R168 is.

William Garretson was basically Rudi Altobelli's (the owner of Cielo Drive) kept "houseboy." Mr. Altobelli was definitely an out and proud gay man. Do you also really think Mr. Altobelli let a 19 y/o boy stay in a Hollywood Hills guesthouse for free just to water plants, be a pool-boy and feed the dogs? Naive R168 probably thinks so.

by Anonymousreply 19611/09/2013

Julie Bowen is the worst.

by Anonymousreply 19711/09/2013
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