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Dan Savage meltdown

I admire what Savage has done with the "It Gets Better" project, but it's always been ironic because he's such a bully himself in real life. Finally Lindy West, one of the Stranger's writers, had had enough and called him out in public over his column comparing "fat marriage" to gay marriage ... which is either brave or stupid, considering how Savage reacts to any questioning of him, much less criticism. (And just when Dan's trying to get an HBO deal! Of all the bad timing.)

Savage is in full-on flailing meltdown, defending himself, going back through his archives to post previous writings that he thinks prove his point and generally acting like a cilantro-sensitive Michfest Amazon. (And closing comments so no one can contradict him.)

This goes on for thousands of words...

[quote]And finally-for-real-finallyfinallyfinally... if you had written to me at my column seeking my advice about all of this (and I realize you didn't and I realize that now I'm the one pretending that I can read your thoughts%E2%80%94but, hey, you pretended you could read mine, so looks like we're even), here's what I would have to said after reading your letter: [bold]It sounds like you're externalizing an internal conflict about being fat%E2%80%94you're projecting your anger and self-loathing onto to me, and seeing malice and bigotry where none exists, and perhaps that's useful[/bold] because that anger seems to be liberating and motivating. If having your own personal boogeyman on Slog helps you conquer your shame and love your body and this helps you break out of old, self-destructive patterns and habits (you can't be losing weight now just because your attitude changed), then I'm happy to be your own personal boogeyman. But honestly, Lindy, you don't need one. You're stronger than that...

Best passive-Savage line: "I'm not her boss. I could probably get her fired, I suppose, but I wouldn't try to do that, because she's brilliant and funny..."

by Anonymousreply 9303/22/2013

I'm having trouble following all this, OP. Could you post a link to the first column where DS offended the fat co-worker and said bad things about fat people?

He's not known for either weighing his opinions carefully before he fires them off, or for backing down easily when people disagree with him. Historically it usually takes him a while to realize he's made a mistake when he's made them (and he has made some doozies over the years).

by Anonymousreply 102/16/2011

Um....are we supposed to reply to this?

by Anonymousreply 202/16/2011

OP, you sound fat.

by Anonymousreply 302/16/2011

What is Savage's issue with fat people (beyond the typical snarky DL-ish type). He mentions fatness a lot, yet I don't think he was ever fat. So, it's not like he's a gay guy who was made fun of for being fat like a lot of kids are, got into shape, but still has issues.

by Anonymousreply 402/16/2011

I'm with Savage on this. And I don't really like him.

by Anonymousreply 502/16/2011

I have to say they both have good points- Lindy is much less windy about it- she gets right to the point. Dan is all over the place and truly- that post was boring, self indulgent and it was too long.

I am fat. I have lost weight when I actually tried to lose weight. I am in the camp that MOST people can do the same- its simply a matter of eating right and exercising. Some people for health or mobility reasons may not be able to lose.

Dan makes good points- he is hurtful about it but who gives a shit- I know what he says is mostly true. And Lindy is right in that its bullshit to say you care about someones health while you are really putting them down in a way. The overriding message is you aren't good enough- why can't you change? I don't know that this really helps a person who is having a problem self motivating with their self esteem.

by Anonymousreply 602/16/2011

r4 at the bottom of his post he includes some comments from his brother who mentions that Dan was a fat kid.

by Anonymousreply 702/16/2011

What exactly happened?

by Anonymousreply 802/16/2011

Sorry, r3 - fatter than Dan, less fat than Lindy.

His column wasn't even that bad, compared to some of the things he's done and written in the past (a dumb, clumsy attempt to equate prejudice against gay people with prejudice against fat people). But sweet Jesus, I can't stand Dan Savage, and watching this unfold has been pure Schadenfreude.

As for the link r1 wanted, it was this question:

[quote]Hey, Dan%E2%80%94so now that you're equating the stigmatization of fat people with the stigmatization of gay people, does that mean you're going to stop stigmatizing fat people on this blog?

by Anonymousreply 902/16/2011

Sorry - I misspoke - the HBO pilot went nowhere; he's on a college tour now that's being turned into a pilot for MTV. And his cred as a brash sex-advice columnist isn't going to be hurt when he talks about fisting or three-ways, but any hint that women don't like him is going to impair his earning ability.

Here's an article about the pilot. Interesting comments.

by Anonymousreply 1002/16/2011

METH.

by Anonymousreply 1102/16/2011

tl:dl

by Anonymousreply 1202/16/2011

But no one cares, r12.

by Anonymousreply 1302/16/2011

?

by Anonymousreply 1402/16/2011

A known whore judging others based in the health argument...that's rich.

by Anonymousreply 1502/16/2011

Dan Savage was in Canada last week speaking out against the anti-gay Conservative government

by Anonymousreply 1702/16/2011

BFD

by Anonymousreply 1802/16/2011

[quote]Dan Savage was in Canada last week speaking out against the anti-gay Conservative government

Nope. he was there pushing "It Gets Better" and, even in an interview with XTRA! (the gay and lesbian newspaper), he was pushing his own narrow worldview, with no room for any views other than his own, i.e., no recognition of his own privilege, and no political content.

by Anonymousreply 1902/16/2011

Spreading the message of hope and compassion while getting paid for it.

You. Better. Work.

by Anonymousreply 2002/16/2011

He's so mean, hateful and racist. It's ironic that anti-bullying has become his pet cause.

by Anonymousreply 2102/16/2011

Last year someone jokingly asked Savage his opinion of "vajazzling" (the stupid non-trend of women supposedly putting sequins or whatever on their vaginas). Savage said:

[quote]Asking for my opinion on vajazzling is like asking a vegan for her opinion on the wallpaper in a steak house. I%E2%80%99m simply too revolted by what%E2%80%99s on the menu to take much notice of the d%C3%A9cor.

I'm a gay guy and I thought that was just a nasty, hateful response to his women readers. If a straight male sex columnist said he was revolted by men's penises, Savage would have called him a homophobe and worse, and he would be right.

by Anonymousreply 2302/16/2011

I hate this racist.

by Anonymousreply 2402/16/2011

Maybe I can pencil in some time late next week to figure out what's at root in this craziness, because from a cursory look it would be easier to draw a timeline and series of Venn diagrams illustrating the key elements in Middle East tensions.

by Anonymousreply 2602/16/2011

This is his downfall. He's ovah.

by Anonymousreply 2702/16/2011

Dan's a good writer but I have heard he's a nasty little number in person. Then again most successful writers are awful people.

by Anonymousreply 2802/16/2011

My first post here - I dislike him very much. Savage is mean and self-centered. His first priority is self promotion.

by Anonymousreply 2902/16/2011

I think because eating is a natural and necessary part of being human, a lot of people have a hard time accepting that their relationship to food is externally conditioned (and often times disordered).

Also, the whole business of metabolisms is a real kick in the balls and just shows how unfair life is. Some people can eat whatever they want and do minimal exercise and remain thin, whereas other people's bodies just seem to want to be fat. It's a depressing and weirdly "unamerican" fact.

Finally, our popular culture constantly re-affirms the message (especially to women) that being thin is a necessary component of being beautiful and successful, and only rarely do we get the full story on how women on TV keep their figures. Do you remember when Mika Brzezinksi wrote that horrifying "this is what I ate this week" article for New York Mag (wasn't it during her ironic "eat healthy, get active" campaign on Morning Joe?) The woman seemed to consume nothing but spinach and mugs of hot water.

It's no wonder so many fat people are self-loathing and hyper-defensive.

by Anonymousreply 3002/16/2011

Interesting post R30.%0D %0D One comment- actually when you control for body composition in people (if you made all people equal in terms of muscle and fat as a percentage of total weight) there is less than 5% variation in metabolic rate. Where people differ radically is in activity and exercise, and of course the more active, the more muscle and the more energy required and visa vera for the inactive. Ergo, we are all pretty much the same metabolically- almost exactly in fact. No one likes to hear this- they want to believe that they get fat easily.

by Anonymousreply 3102/16/2011

Charlie is correct in this instance.

You want to up your metabolism get off the couch.

But back to the column that caused the problem...can anyone link to it.

OP's mess is hard to follow.

by Anonymousreply 3202/16/2011

I'll defer to you on that, charlie. I have no scientific background.

I do, however, feel that I stay thin "easily". I'm 6 ft tall and 140-ish lbs. Granted, I do run 4 miles a day, but even at my most inactive, the biggest I've ever been has been around 155lbs.

I understand that its anecdotal, but I see people who eat and are active at similar levels to me, and they can't ever seem to get as thin as I am. Why is this?

by Anonymousreply 3302/16/2011

Maybe that 5% difference in metabolic rate is all you need? I'm in my 30's and still have a 32" waist and I have not been to the gym in months. My partner eats roughly the same as I do and gets the same amount of activity, yet he's heavier. He always has been.

I do think there is a genetic component, which people don't like to hear. As R30 says, it's difficult for an american mindset to accept that not everyone is created equal and we can't all achieve the same goals. Well, I'm sure that sounds great to a Objectivist.

Of course that's easy for me to say. It's been easy for me to stay thin.

by Anonymousreply 3402/16/2011

Dan Savage is a fucking moron and a terrible writer who was banished to Seattle years ago because of his addictions and unreliability. He's a serial cheater with zero credibility. His sex column is laughable and stupid.

He had ONE good viral youtube idea a few months ago which has now turned into a national parody.

He's worse than Andrew Sullivan, and that's saying a lot.

by Anonymousreply 3502/16/2011

What you see and what the reality is, are not equivalent.%0D %0D R34- I would have to know something about each of your body compositions (%lean, %C3%BAt) and what you think appears the same in terms of eating, probably is not at all the same. %0D %0D Most people who are overweight, do their most significant eating, alone. Also they also eat just a bit more than, say R39, each day, every day- and don't run. Just 250 calories in excess of need on a daily basis translates to about 20 pounds per year- and those years add up- 100 calories per day, 10 pounds per year can add up.%0D %0D I think the first point in R30's reply is where its at. The way you eat, and have learned how to eat is at the very core of who you are and how you live. It takes a huge event or change in your life (marriage, divorce, death scare, etc) to get you to alter your eating habits. We also think the solution to weight loss is easy and quick. To eat less and move more you have to change the way you live- change your lifestyle- not temporarily- but forever. It is that kind of commitment- and it means giving up something that comforts you perhaps. It is a tall order.

by Anonymousreply 3602/16/2011

R35 = nasty piece of santorum.

by Anonymousreply 3702/16/2011

more dirt on Dan, please. what's the deal with his cheating and addictions?

by Anonymousreply 3802/16/2011

Why are these people who profess to speak for "The Gay Community" so flawed? Milky Loads; Rosie... Thanks but no thanks.

by Anonymousreply 3902/16/2011

[quote]Why are these people who profess to speak for "The Gay Community" so flawed?

Because all humans are flawed and nobody's perfect? And what do you mean with SO (flawed)? None of them killed someone (well, maybe except Milky Loads).

by Anonymousreply 4002/16/2011

My comments%E2%80%94%E2%80%9CNo, you certainly can%E2%80%99t say that you%E2%80%99ll lose weight if you stop eating fast food, get more exercise, and eat more vegetables. It%E2%80%99s true, of course, but you%E2%80%99re not allowed to say it.%E2%80%9D%E2%80%94were meant to be read in the context of Ms. English%E2%80%99s admissions about her eating and exercise habits, not yours, Kate, or those of all overweight people everywhere. For the tiresome ol%E2%80%99 record: I do solemnly swear that I believe people come in all different shapes and sizes, and that not everyone can or should be a size 0, and further I believe that people can be healthy, relatively speaking, and large, and I believe that big people are attractive%E2%80%94to people who are attracted to big people.

But you know what, Kate? There%E2%80%99s a difference between big or heavy or stocky and morbidly fucking obese. Ms. English weighs 392 pounds. That is unhealthy and unsustainable. Her health risks are legion. And by her own admission, Ms. English is making %E2%80%9Ceasier choices,%E2%80%9D i.e., fast food, no exercise, and she has a poor diet. And if Ms. English%E2%80%94a 400 pound woman%E2%80%94stops eating drive-through garbage, starts exercising, and eats a few more vegetables, she%E2%80%99s going to lose weight. Period. Is she going to be a size 0? Probably not, Kate, but I don%E2%80%99t think she needs to be a size 0, and I never said that she or you or anyone else had to be a size 0. Ms. English will, however, if she can resist the drive-through and get off her ass, be lighter and healthier than she is today.

And anyone whose eating and exercise habits are similar to Ms. English%E2%80%99s eating and exercise habits is going to lose weight and keep it off if he or she knocks off the fast food and gets a little more exercise%E2%80%94not as a temporary measure, not as a diet, but as a permanent lifestyle change. If you%E2%80%99ve already done that, Kate, and you%E2%80%99re still big, maybe you are at your body%E2%80%99s naturally %E2%80%9Cset weight%E2%80%9D or whatever it%E2%80%99s called. But Ms. English, at 400 pounds, has a weight problem, and a potentially life-threatening one.

Of course, if Ms. English is content at 400 pounds, and wants to assume the health risks that come with morbid obesity, and isn%E2%80%99t interested in making changes to her eating and exercise habits, that%E2%80%99s her absolute right. She shouldn%E2%80%99t be mocked or discriminated against or poked with sticks. But the rest of the world doesn%E2%80%99t have to pretend that eating and exercise habits don%E2%80%99t have an impact on weight just to make Ms. English feel better about the unhealthy choices she%E2%80%99s making now.

by Anonymousreply 4102/16/2011

I think I found it...

An Iowa state elected official%E2%80%94can you guess which party?%E2%80%94trots out a tired, false, and repeatedly debunked stat to justify banning gay marriage: gay people have lower life expectancies than straight people. And since we don't contribute as much to society as "normal people that do not enter into that kind of relationship," we clearly shouldn't be allowed to marry. (The haters use these false stats to argue against our right to be at all.)

First: those stats are bullshit. And second...

Even if it were true%E2%80%94even if gay people had lower life expectancies (which we do not)%E2%80%94and if that "fact" all by itself was a justification for banning same-sex marriage, why stop with gay people? Iowa should ban fat marriage. There are, according to the state of Iowa, more than 1.4 million obese people living in Iowa. That's nearly 30% of the state's population, and those numbers just keep rising. The social costs of Iowa's obesity epidemic are pretty staggering%E2%80%94and those costs include including premature death and lower average life expectancies for Iowans.

Since we know that obesity is "contagious"%E2%80%94someone with an obese spouse is 37% more likely to be or become obese%E2%80%94then we shouldn't permit the obese to marry. If an outright ban on fat marriage seems too draconian, then we shouldn't permit the obese to marry the non-obese. The odds that the skinny spouse will be ultimately be seduced into the risky obese lifestyle are simply too great and the potential health consequences too severe.

by Anonymousreply 4202/16/2011

[quote]I like him. Always have. He shoots from the hip. So what? Deal. The hate here is extreme and unjustified. You don't like him? Don't read him.

Such childish reasoning and justifying. No wonder you like him.

by Anonymousreply 4302/16/2011

damn

by Anonymousreply 4402/16/2011

[quote]For the tiresome ol' record: I do solemnly swear that I believe people come in all different shapes and sizes, and that not everyone can or should be a size 0, and further I believe that people can be healthy, relatively speaking, and large, and I believe that big people are attractive"to people who are attracted to big people.

But that's like when Tom Cruise asserts that despite what we might think he actually likes gay people and doesn't discriminate against them, Dan. Just saying a blanket set of platitudes doesn't correct the fact that in practice your column always inveighs against fat people as not only unhealthy but also morally failed, and that in practice you rarely distinguish between people who are somewhat overweight and people who are actually morbidly obese.

And charlie, this is also my problem with you--you're such a know it all and believe one way is the correct way. You never think that what makes other people happy might differ from makes you happy. Everyone has to be the same weight ratio! Everyone has to do the same amount of exercise! Everyone has to like Barbra Streisand! (but that last one is a separate matter entirely...)

by Anonymousreply 4502/16/2011

Banned to Seattle? How was he banned to Seattle, that is where he came from and started out in the Seattle Free Press or whatever it's called.%0D %0D Addiction and promiscuity? How so? I am going to once again get steamed for this (because I know everybody), but someone very close to me is very close to him.%0D %0D From what I understand he is pretty middle class: partner, family, raising a kid, nice life, sex drugs rock and roll long gone in his life... kind of normal pleasant progessive member of his community (and neighborhood) so I am told.%0D %0D This person who is close to him is as down to earth, sweet and also bright as they come. She is not in habit of hanging with racist, promiscuous, drug addicted, mean, lying, self important, fools as described by people on this thread who I have a feeling have never met him.%0D %0D I suppose since he make his living with his opinions, and he IS opinionated, he draws lots of fire- particularly since he is successful. Kind of goes with the job. %0D %0D I don't find his views even remotely as nuts as Milky Loads who is, I think, nuts- at least his world view is, and some of his behaviors (being caught looking to bareback on line.)%0D

by Anonymousreply 4602/16/2011

R42, I do hope you realize his point there is to parody a ridiculous statment about life expectancy and the right to marriage. It has nothing to do with thinking obese people should have fewer rights, just the opposite in fact.%0D %0D R45 you are mixing up opinion and sometimes fact- the metabolic information is fact. We have reams of data to support it- My political views and my music tastes are opinion. When I site a statistic to support a political position, that is a fact in support of a point of view. I never have ever wanted people to be the same or all alike. I do not insist people be the same or think only as I do.%0D %0D But nevertheless, people are metabolically and biochemically almost identical when factors such as body composition and activity are controlled for. That is science. Sorry.

by Anonymousreply 4702/16/2011

Savage bragged about he and his partner fucking a waiter in a bathroom at a restaurant. I wonder if their kids were at the table with them...

by Anonymousreply 4802/16/2011

It still surprises me how much bitter animus an out gay man can engender on this supposedly gay-friendly website.

by Anonymousreply 4902/16/2011

"Savage bragged about he and his partner fucking a waiter in a bathroom at a restaurant."

link pls

by Anonymousreply 5102/16/2011

R19, he may have been promoting his own campaign, but he was also on CBC speaking out against the Harper government's position on gay rights. I saw it myself. He was on the show Power & Politics with Evan Solomon.

Shortly after Dan Savage was on the show, true to form Stephen Harper and his conservatives voted against the new Transgender rights bill, but it passed anyway because the left of centre parties supported it (Liberals, NDP & Bloc).

by Anonymousreply 5202/16/2011

[quote]It still surprises me how much bitter animus an out gay man can engender on this supposedly gay-friendly website.

Gays and lesbians don't have to support a gay jerk any more than blacks have to support a black jerk or Jews have to support a Jewish jerk.

I think Neil Patrick Harris is great. I think Barney Frank is awesome. I think k.d. lang is the best singer of standards in this generation. I think Cherry Jones is one of the finest actors of her generation. I think Jane Lynch is hilarious. I think Wanda Sykes is hilarious-er. I think Ricky Martin is a good role model for gay and lesbian parents.I think Bryan Batt is a nice guy who deserves his success.

And I know Dan Savage is an asshole and a bully. It has nothing to do with his sexual orientation. It has to do with his assholism.

by Anonymousreply 5302/16/2011

Proof is in the pudding, R53. Look at any thread on Datalounge about out gay celebrities. Nine times out of ten it will be dominated by the most vicious, hateful, anonymous sniping.

I swear, Free Republic could hardly be worse.

by Anonymousreply 5402/16/2011

Very well put, R53. With the exception of Barney Frank, I agree with your examples and reasoning.

by Anonymousreply 5502/16/2011

R53, obviously gays don't have to automatically support someone just because he is gay.

However, I think it's important to ask whether the good points outweigh the bad. Savage may be an asshole in his personal life for all I know - I don't know as I've never met him.

But he has spoken up for equality on many political and legal panels I have seen, and I think that's the most important thing.

by Anonymousreply 5602/17/2011

"And I know Dan Savage is an asshole and a bully. It has nothing to do with his sexual orientation. It has to do with his assholism."%0D %0D %0D %0D %0D He hasn't done anything to be labeled an asshole. %0D %0D %0D Some people here just love attacking out gays because it makes them feel better about themselves.%0D %0D

by Anonymousreply 5802/17/2011

"He hasn't done anything to be labeled an asshole."

You mean, other than behaving like an asshole?

by Anonymousreply 5902/17/2011

There are lots of assholes out there who have done many good things to advance civil and equality rights.

Why does it matter if they are assholes sometimes?

by Anonymousreply 6002/17/2011

Because everyone who is an asshole deserves to be called out on being an asshole.

It doesn't mean that people are negating the good deeds Dan Savage does (at least, I am certainly not). He is just a big asshole sometimes, and when he is, he deserves to be called out on it.

Gandhi didn't treat his wife very well; neither did Martin Luther King. That doesn't diminish the great things they did, or prevent them both from being celebrated for their great achievements; even so, they still deserve to be called out for being assholes to their wives.

by Anonymousreply 6102/17/2011

Fair enough, I guess, R61

by Anonymousreply 6202/17/2011

hmmm

by Anonymousreply 6302/17/2011

I just read their entire exchange, and I think, on the whole, both Lindy and Dan made good points and that Dan actually (in the written word anyway--he might secretly bitch & moan to his bfriend differently) did well in his "final" response.

And I say that as an overweight woman.

by Anonymousreply 6402/17/2011

I love how the "Free Republic" line is only brought up when it's a white gay male that is getting criticized. %0D %0D I've seen far worse stuff posted on Jodie Foster, Rosie, Melissa Etheridge, etc. And no one comes rushing to their rescue every other two posts. %0D %0D And don't even get me started on the all the racist trolls that dominate black-centered threads.%0D %0D But let a white gay male get criticized, and we're suddenly a bunch of Nazi's. %0D %0D Savage said stupid shit. I don't care whether he's gay or not. He deserves to be called out on his bigotry and hatred. End of discussion.

by Anonymousreply 6502/17/2011

For all those claiming that he isn't racist, go ahead and google his blog on the day right after prop 8 passed. Not the one that is searchable through his website, the one that has to be viewed via google cache because it was taken down due to his rant attracting hundreds of Gay-KK racist trolls.

And I'll never forget when that smug little shit did the talk show circuit and made jokes about being "under" black men sexually when people called him out on his racism.

He leaves a very bad taste in my mouth.

by Anonymousreply 6602/17/2011

Link?

by Anonymousreply 6702/17/2011

Now even the google cache is gone but you'll get the gist of it...

by Anonymousreply 6802/17/2011

Oh sure it has. There have been WAY worse threads in terms of pointless bitchery!

by Anonymousreply 7102/17/2011

Reading this thread, it seems most of the posters stridently calling Dan Savage an asshole can be real assholes themselves.

by Anonymousreply 7202/17/2011

[quote]I've seen far worse stuff posted on Jodie Foster, Rosie, Melissa Etheridge, etc. And no one comes rushing to their rescue every other two posts. And don't even get me started on the all the racist trolls that dominate black-centered threads.

Gee, not to confuse the issue or anything.

And what about that Armenian genocide in the former Ottoman Empire at the beginning of the 20th century? Nobody's rushing out here to defend the poor dead Armenians either.

by Anonymousreply 7302/17/2011

DS barely stopped short of calling for lynchings. He's a racist and Charlie is a known bigot himself.

by Anonymousreply 7402/17/2011

[quote]DS barely stopped short of calling for lynchings.

Link please.

by Anonymousreply 7502/17/2011

[quote]I agree with you [R53]- just being famous is a reason to knock someone down on DL. I guess that is the pointless bitchery. It has never been more alive on this thread.

Oh, for God's sake, charlie. If you really think this - of all threads - is the ne plus ultra of Pointless Bitchery, then you really haven't been paying attention at all.

This thread is actually a lot more meaty than some of the threads that aren't much more than "Hate him!" It's a controversial topic about a controversial person, and both the Savage admirers and detractors are making good points and actually making me think about some of these issues.

But I've noticed people tend to complain bitterly about the "pointless bitchery" when it's someone THEY like getting gored here. Say what you want about DL, but it's remarkably nonpartisan and all-encompassing when it comes to flaying the famous.

by Anonymousreply 7602/17/2011

His comments on Prop 8:%0D %0D "I do know this, though: I%E2%80%99m done pretending that the handful of racist gay white men out there%E2%80%94and they%E2%80%99re out there, and I think they%E2%80%99re scum%E2%80%94are a bigger problem for African Americans, gay and straight, than the huge numbers of homophobic African Americans are for gay Americans, whatever their color."%0D %0D Typical swarthy remark. Yeah, us whites are just as bad but we're a lower number so we're really not. Repub speak. Any gay should know better than to do this.%0D %0D "This will get my name scratched of the invite list of the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force, which is famous for its anti-racist-training seminars, but whatever."%0D %0D The man is an idiot. And he had to print a retraction after people bitched and moaned about him excluding the mormon influence. Not an apology by any means, but a nasty reply.%0D %0D "And I was asked why I didn%E2%80%99t go after, say, the Mormon Church, which bankrolled this thing: I have written numerous posts slamming the Mormon Church and the Catholic Church, as any regular reader of Slog would be aware."%0D %0D

by Anonymousreply 7802/17/2011

Full disclosure: I'm a white gay male.

Is your argument that because there are racist gay individuals all gay people must be denied equality under the law? Because that it what we are talking about with gay marriage rights. Gay people are unequal to the straight peers in the eyes of the United States government - - a whole class of people. The United States government explicitly discriminating against a class of citizens, is to my mind more dangerous than individual bigotry.

And frankly, R78, I don't understand what the problem is with identifying the inconsistent social conservatism that is prevalent in the African American community. I certainly have no problem identifying the knee-jerk racism prevalent among many white people (both gay and straight).

The truth of the matter is that anti-black and anti-gay prejudices are exploited by the Republicans (super rich assholes who are almost invariably straight and white) to get stupid people to vote against their own best interests. The Republicans encourage white people (again both gay and straight) to think that they are being taking advantage of by the lazy, shiftless and violent urban poor, who get money for nothing and will likely be promoted (though grossly unqualified) above our heads to satisfy PC hiring practices and affirmative action quota systems. They also encourage straight people (both black and white) to think that gay people are a bunch of treacherous perverts whose ultimate goal is to outlaw religion, destabilize western society and have disgusting sex with their kids.

The fact of the matter is, white gays still overwhelmingly vote for the non-evil party when it comes to the issues that matter to African Americans. Just as straight African Americans overwhelmingly vote for the non-evil party when it comes to gay rights. That being said, Prop 8 showed that as a voting bloc they weren't in favor of gay equality when it came to a direct vote.

We (thankfully) don't live in an era wherein African Americans can be explicitly discriminated against by the government-- though of course we live still live in an era wherein issues of race affect public policy, but we do still live in an era where gay people can and are discriminated against and treated unequally under the law.

by Anonymousreply 7902/17/2011

The point R79 is that he claims the number of racist white gay men aren't as big as the homophobic black population? Where are the statistics and facts to back that up? He's so willing to say black homophobia is rampant because of what went down in California, yet he's so quick to diminish the racism of gay white men, because allegedly, there are only "a handful"? %0D %0D Furthermore, his rant mentioned nothing about all the prominent black celebrities who voiced their support for abolishing Prop 8. And nothing about how all the white celebrities whom many gay white men adore did nothing for the cause.%0D %0D Or the fact that the anti Prop 8 campaign was one of the worst ever organized in American history. A flat out embarassment beyond belief. %0D %0D And you're going to tell me that no African American voted against Prop 8?! You couldn't guess it by reading Savage's diatribe.%0D %0D Racism isn't and should never be reduced to comparisons. If we're going to start comparing, then you can't tell me that there weren't more than a few white gay men who had something to do with maintaining slavery, seperate schools and waterfountains and other discriminatory bullshit towards blacks. %0D %0D Many blacks in the Civil rights movement were publicly for gay rights, FYI. %0D %0D We need to stop with the pissing "You're worse than I" contests and start working towards solutions. %0D %0D %0D %0D %0D

by Anonymousreply 8002/17/2011

So far I have yet to see anything that proves "DS barely stopped short of calling for lynchings."

by Anonymousreply 8302/17/2011

indeed

by Anonymousreply 8402/18/2011

The Mormon community spent countless amounts of money on pro Prop-8 propaganda R82. They were the group that supported it the most. %0D Fact. Deal.%0D %0D And maybe if we had an actual anti Prop 8 campaign orgainzed by our supposed leaders, it would have helped. We had nothing. A anti Prop 8 letter from the President was completely ignored, in spite of the fact that many thought he was for it. Aside from Adam Bouska, no one did a damn thing. And Bouska's glamour shots of drag queens and porn stars with tape over their mouths was hardly going to get those who already had mixed feeling about gays on our side.%0D %0D

by Anonymousreply 8502/18/2011

Sorry..I don't listen to someone whose education consists of a degree in theater and history

by Anonymousreply 8603/21/2013

First of all, that was 70% of African Americans that lived in the state of california on November 4, 2008...the only ones that were eligible to vote on Prop 8. (and there has been some doubt thrown about that particular poll

You cannot extrapolate from the black California vote to African Americans all over the country...there are regional differences among African Americans...just as there are regional differences among gays.

I like Dan because he's passionate about gays but that passion also brings out his assholiam (among other -isms that he's infected with).

by Anonymousreply 8703/21/2013

Clearly you do, Wanda, since you bumped this ANCIENT thread which no longer matters.

by Anonymousreply 8803/21/2013

Oh dear, gots to be more careful, here.

by Anonymousreply 8903/21/2013

Also: Lindy West is batshit crazy Women's Studies 101 cunt. Check out her latest work if you have any doubt.

by Anonymousreply 9003/21/2013

r69 has it right.

To lament blacks who vote against gay rights is not to absolve white voters who do the same, but to point out the irony of one disfavored minority voting against the rights of another.

This was commented on far more by straight white progressives and the mainstream media, who were shocked and baffled by those Prop 8 stats, than by gay men (gay people weren't so shocked imho).

So anyone shrieking about Dan Savage pointing this out and wanting to discuss it should've taken on some of the many, many other news sources and pundits who pointed out this exact same thing in the exact same way.

Fortunately, with time, and likely with Obama's endorsement, the stats have evened out by race imho, and this is all pretty much moot now.

by Anonymousreply 9203/21/2013

Savage claimed in his book that he wanted to get married and have a family because he was afraid of getting fat, and that all his birth family in Illinois are fatties, and I think that he was a fattish kid.

To you stupid "eat less, exercise more" people, metabolism is the key to the whole thing. To say 5% is negligible is nonsense. 5 pounds a year over 10 years is obesity. Most people take in 5 pounds of food and drink in one or two days (no not calories, actual weight. Your body has to eliminate the whole weight of what you eat and drink, not just the "calories"). And the key to doing that successfully is not exercise. It is eating a little every couple hours to keep the metabolism up. Which however is bad for your budget and your teeth. And your body fights whatever you do to its established habits with every resource at its command.

How is it that you realize how hard it is to quit smoking and quit alcohol but you don't get how difficult food is given that people cannot quit it? The key fact of the debate on obesity, aside from the hysterical tone of some and junk science about its medical effects, is that pretty much everyone involved with it has an unnatural and broken relationship to food.

Savage became a gay publishing success for the same reason Sullivan did: he represented the right and not the community. But he has done much more than Sullivan to atone with his "It Gets Better" campaign and the general tone of his sex advice column. So he's not as bad as Sullivan, whatever his defects on issues outside his competence. He really is a good guy trying his best. Sullivan is not.

by Anonymousreply 9303/22/2013
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