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Can a nursing home force you to pay?

If you put an elderly relative in there and she no longer has money? Asking for a friend.

replies 156Dec 6, 2017 7:06 PM +00:00

I think it depends on the terms of when you entered. Some say they will keep you even if you run out of money. You sign a deal and then they have to stick to that.

If it didn't have that policy upon entry then the state has to get involved and pay them welfare or have them moved to a state run facility.

replies 1Dec 6, 2017 7:11 PM +00:00

Of course not!

--They just have a nice lawn where they deposit the deadbeat.
replies 2Dec 6, 2017 7:13 PM +00:00

So I can’t just drop her off at the front? Do they make you sign anything? I’m not signing anything.

replies 3Dec 6, 2017 7:16 PM +00:00

There is more to this story - but I will tell you this. They will find a reason to have the resident admitted to a hospital. Once admitted they will say that they will not take the resident back. From there on it will be the social workers job to find a place that will accept the patient. With a history of non payment this will be difficult.

replies 4Dec 6, 2017 7:17 PM +00:00

Is thread about G?

replies 5Dec 6, 2017 7:18 PM +00:00

If they run out of money I believe it has to be a facility that takes Medicaid. Not all of them do. I assume then that person is moved to one that does. Your friend needs to find out if the home takes it . If not they're going to have to start looking for another place.

replies 6Dec 6, 2017 7:19 PM +00:00

Pitiful situation

replies 7Dec 6, 2017 7:19 PM +00:00

R3, drop her off on the porch, ring the doorbell, and run like a bat out of hell.

replies 8Dec 6, 2017 7:22 PM +00:00

I know someone who paid 90k to go into assisted living and then she will be taken care of for the rest of her life as she deteriorates and is moved down to nursing home etc. She doesn't have to pay them anything else from no on.

replies 9Dec 6, 2017 7:23 PM +00:00

90k for assisted living is nothing.

I have a friend whose mother got insurance years ago for elderly care. She has just put her mother in assisted living and is covered for 300k. She wonders what will happen after that insurance money is used up. Will it then eat up the money they got for her mother's house?

replies 10Dec 6, 2017 7:28 PM +00:00

Is the resident a candidate for long term placement? Or has she finished her rehab and is ready to go home? Has she run into co-pay days and cannot afford the co-pays? If she is a candidate for long term care, has the resident or the family completed an ICP (institutional care program) application? Does she not qualify for ICP because she has means?

--r4 has the family taken or is hiding her money, real estate....
replies 11Dec 6, 2017 7:29 PM +00:00

To qualify for Medicaid coverage of a nursing home you have to spend down your assets beyond a certain threshold, can't remember exactly how much. They do look at asset transfers in the years immediately preceding the Medicaid application, so you can't just sign over all your wealth to your children and hope to be covered.

replies 12Dec 6, 2017 7:35 PM +00:00

The nursing home can’t come after you unless you signed something making you legally responsible for payment.

But look into Medicaid eligibility; that’s what she needs.

replies 13Dec 6, 2017 7:38 PM +00:00

What is the time on moving assets? They look back at least 5 yrs or is it more now?

replies 14Dec 6, 2017 7:40 PM +00:00

It's worth it to spend a few bucks on an Elder Law attorney if you have to go through the Medicaid spend down process. They know a few tricks to protect as much as possible through careful use of certain types of trusts and such and what types of assets are exempt.

replies 15Dec 6, 2017 7:45 PM +00:00

An eldergay friend of mine, who was once wealthy, ran through all his money by the time he was 80. He got sick and the hospital social worker went to court to have him declared incompetent. Since he had been rich he had never paid into Medicare, and they put him into a long term care nursing home, and he's been there 8 years under Medicaid. I have his stuff stored at my house since his condo was sold by the attorney. I take him photos and things for him to talk about, pictures of cute young guys he hung out with, vacation snaps of Morocco in the early 60's with cute guys on the beach.

replies 16Dec 6, 2017 7:57 PM +00:00


replies 17Dec 6, 2017 7:59 PM +00:00

You’re fuckin screwed. Republicans are in charge now, bitches! Die, I don’t fuckin care.

--Paul Ryan
replies 18Dec 6, 2017 8:05 PM +00:00

The OP is hiding money and wants to suckle on Uncle Sam's teat.

replies 19Dec 6, 2017 8:09 PM +00:00

There are a few states that have laws from a century ago, that hold a family responsible for the care of their relatives. I recall Pennsylvania is, or was, one of them with these types of law in force. Basically what happened is the nursing homes are going after the families. But I'm unsure of how close a relation you must be.

replies 20Dec 6, 2017 8:10 PM +00:00

R19 fuck you asshole. Medicaid takes over when patients have exhausted their assets. However, the enormous Medicaid cuts in the tax bill (somebody's got to make up for those freebies to billionaires) are going to hit nursing homes hard. I hope every deplorable ends up having to take Granny back into his house and loses their job looking after her.

replies 21Dec 6, 2017 8:14 PM +00:00

The home will drive the deadbeat to a high remote mountain top and leave her there, as the Indians used to do.

--Nature's way
replies 22Dec 6, 2017 8:16 PM +00:00

The rules for Medicaid are different in every state, unlike Medicare which is fully federal. You will need to speak to someone in your state to get your questions answered. In general, you cannot enter a nursing home without a 'sponsor' who agrees to be responsible for your costs. If you have no assets, you can generally qualify for Medicaid for long term care expenses but your states Medicaid will determine the rules for your placement.

replies 23Dec 6, 2017 8:19 PM +00:00

twenty three threads and not a single mention of Shady Pines? DL is slipping.

replies 24Dec 6, 2017 8:21 PM +00:00

R16, he's lucky to have you.

replies 25Dec 6, 2017 8:42 PM +00:00

If you can’t pay Myrtle, sorry you’re out in the cold. We’re all heart though Hon, you can take your wheelchair. Sucker

replies 26Dec 6, 2017 8:43 PM +00:00

You need to make a distinction between a nursing home and an assisted living facility. Medicaid will cover the former, but not the latter. Medicaid will pay for a nursing home only if it's medically necessary.

replies 27Dec 6, 2017 8:45 PM +00:00

This makes me think Suze Orman is correct about buying Long Term Care Insurance.

Does anyone here have it? I think Suze says you should get it in your 50s. Does that sound right?

replies 28Dec 6, 2017 8:49 PM +00:00

Too expensive R28. It’s easier to die.

replies 29Dec 6, 2017 9:04 PM +00:00

OP Your mother is so lucky to have you.

--Just drop her off at the fire station.
replies 30Dec 6, 2017 9:40 PM +00:00

Paul Ryan’s America. Just push that old bitch off the cliff...

--That wheelchair comes in handy
replies 31Dec 6, 2017 9:43 PM +00:00

Here in Massachusetts, Mass Health will pay for nursing home care only after the patient's assets have been exhausted. If the patient owns a home, Mass Health will smack a lien on it and once it's value has been spent down to $0, they will assume the cost of care. Also, the patient is not allowed to have more than $2,000.00 in the bank.

replies 32Dec 6, 2017 9:50 PM +00:00

Blood sucking assisted living. Nice and clean but blood sucking vampires for sure.

replies 33Dec 6, 2017 9:53 PM +00:00

Are there any gay nursing homes yet?

replies 34Dec 6, 2017 9:54 PM +00:00

They should apply for Medicaid.

replies 35Dec 6, 2017 10:01 PM +00:00

If you don't pay, they'll pimp you out.

replies 36Dec 6, 2017 10:04 PM +00:00

R35 you can’t be serious! With this Repuke congress? Not gonnna happen Hon

replies 37Dec 6, 2017 10:27 PM +00:00

R28, This year I bought an insurance policy with an LTC rider. It cost me, at age 67, $100K up front.

If I need Long- or Short-Term Care the base $100K is first spent down, but then, if I need more time and money for care, the insurers pay the next $100K.

That's roughly two years. Then ye olde assets would be targeted.

replies 38Dec 6, 2017 10:28 PM +00:00

they haven't changed anything yet r37

r35 is right (for now)

replies 39Dec 6, 2017 10:38 PM +00:00

No wonder Sofia Petrillo burned down Shady Pines.

--Dot Dot what a girl I got
replies 40Dec 6, 2017 10:47 PM +00:00

I sure need to know more about nursing homes ...but why has no one mentioned the obvious? The nursing home receives your social security, all pensions, annuities etc that goes toward your monthly bill. OP doesn't mention whether this person has SS or other income. Of course, if you don't have these assets the nursing home can't receive them!

replies 41Dec 6, 2017 11:00 PM +00:00

Sign over all your shit to your gay nephew when you are in your 40’s. Boom! Done. Nothing to worry about.

replies 42Dec 6, 2017 11:14 PM +00:00

This should not be an issue at all in a wealthy, civilized society.

replies 43Dec 6, 2017 11:52 PM +00:00
This should not be an issue at all in a wealthy, civilized society.

The latter descriptor is your first mistake.

replies 44Dec 7, 2017 12:50 AM +00:00

So much misinformation on this thread. You all need to educate yourselves on how much it costs to be a senior in failing health and plan accordingly. Rules differ based on where you live but the bottom line is if you have sufficient funds you will be expected to pay for your care; you’ll also get to live in a decent environment. If you have few retirement dollars you can expect that the living choices available to you will be meager and depressing. I started my LTC insurance 6 years ago (at age 52);the cost is $140 per month for approx. $500,000 of coverage. My agent told me that statistically when LTC policies are maintained, 78% will be used to some degree by the insured.

replies 45Dec 7, 2017 1:08 AM +00:00

r14 In NJ, they do look back at the last five years for the transfer of assets.

replies 46Dec 7, 2017 4:11 AM +00:00

I’d rather suicide and leave my assets (if there are any) to my loved ones or a good charity than let those crooks get it. While I know there are good people caring for olds, there are many greedy fucks in charge.

Back in the late 80s my BFF’s step-grand was facing a terminal illness. He got his affairs in order and wrote beautiful letters to everyone, saying goodbye. Then he took a bunch of pills and went out before he got too sick to help himself. He left my friend a sum of money, which she used to travel to France. He wanted people to use the money for something special, not hospital bills.

--There are things worse than death.
replies 47Dec 7, 2017 4:32 AM +00:00

So my friend hasn’t signed anything. She doesn’t have any money and my friend isn’t going to pay. They haven’t had a good relationship. She had a stroke and is in the hospital. She’ll recover, but won’t be able to live by herself anymore.

The hospital wants him to take her home with him but he says no way. Can they put her out on the street? Can’t he just take her to a nursing home and drop her off or something?

replies 48Dec 7, 2017 6:19 AM +00:00

Take her to Shady Pines. Just leave her outside.

replies 49Dec 7, 2017 6:44 AM +00:00

They can't force her to pay but they'll probably slap her around a lot.

replies 50Dec 7, 2017 6:52 AM +00:00

r34 Not sure, but there are definitely gay retirement facilities.

replies 51Dec 7, 2017 6:54 AM +00:00

I considered buying LTC insurance, but it was ridiculously expensive, and they kept changing the premiums and the benefits. I don't have any immediate family (not even nieces or nephews) so I'm kind of on my own. But I don't care if I leave anything, and I have a good (six-figure) pension, as well as over $2 million in assets. So I figure I should be able to take care of myself. If not -- then hopefully I'll still have the ability to kill myself.

replies 52Dec 7, 2017 6:56 AM +00:00

My friend's mother bought her insurance many years ago when it was affordable. She said there would have been no way she could have afforded the comparable rates of today.

Insurance companies have found out people are living longer than they expected and the premiums are not as profitable as hoped.

replies 53Dec 7, 2017 7:05 AM +00:00

Drop her off on Paul Ryan's door step.

replies 54Dec 7, 2017 7:49 AM +00:00

You pay the nursing home until your money runs out, and then at that point Medicaid kicks in and the government pays everything. You are allowed to keep your house while still alive, but they will put a lien on the house AFTER your death to recoup some of the money. They don't always go after the house if it's not worth much--some states are more lax than others. This is why older people will often put their house in their children's name as they get older in order to protect it should they go into a nursing home.

The house, and any money you have, has to be out of your name for at least 2 years prior to going on Medicaid to avoid recoupment by the government, so plan early to protect your assets if you want to pass them on to your heirs.

replies 55Dec 7, 2017 8:05 AM +00:00
Since he had been rich he had never paid into Medicare,


replies 56Dec 7, 2017 8:09 AM +00:00

Medicare is not like Social Security. It's like SSI. It doesn't matter if you ever paid even a dime - if you're elderly, broke, and it's medically necessary, you qualify for Medicaid. Same is true for the disabled. Not sure if it's true for all children (assuming the family has very low income/assets) but I think it is. If you're 18+ and not disabled, in many states you can't get it even with 0 income/assets. That's what Obamacare was trying to change (up to 130% or income or 138% whatever) but not all states took the deal.

But nevertheless, even states that didn't take the deal -- Medicaid still covers indigent elderly, disabled, and minors.

replies 57Dec 7, 2017 8:22 AM +00:00

Question is how much longer will there be Medicaid? Republicans and the wealthy overlords have wanted to get their hands on it since Reagan.

replies 58Dec 7, 2017 8:28 AM +00:00

I'm amazed at how many Americans don't know the difference between Medicare, Medicaid, SSI and SSD.

replies 59Dec 7, 2017 8:33 AM +00:00

Oh hell I got confused. I think if you never worked/paid in to Medicare, you can still get it but you have to pay a pretty small premium for Part A and for Part B.

IF you paid in, you pay just for Part B - like $130/month - something like that.

replies 60Dec 7, 2017 8:33 AM +00:00

The nursing home's vegetable garden is to die for!

replies 61Dec 7, 2017 8:37 AM +00:00

It's fucking confusing R59.

SSI: You never have to have paid in, but you must be declared disabled and have very low assets/income (if any). They usually let you keep your house, I think, maybe your care. This is disability benefits - currently about $730 a month I think.

Medicare: You paid in and just pay for Part B (doctor's visits and such) at about $130/month. IF you never paid in, you also pay hospitalization (Part A - less than $200/month I think.) Medicare doesn't pay for long-term care.

Medicaid: Varies by state but all states pay for elderly (including nursing homes) if they have almost no income/assets plus same deal for disabled, children, pregnant women (and a few weeks after giving birth). Some states (expansion ones mainly) pay for very poor able-bodied adults (Republicans really hate this).

SSDI: You paid in and you file on your own Social Security Record to get disability benefits. You can also file on your parent's if you were disabled under age 22 and they're either dead or retired and qualify/qualified for social security benefits. Amount varies - if it's less than SSI, then SSI will make up the difference.

Is that right R59?

replies 62Dec 7, 2017 8:39 AM +00:00

* 3rd line: maybe your CAR

replies 63Dec 7, 2017 8:40 AM +00:00

get on the computer and look up all the nursing homes in the area. Then check their gov't. ratings. you shouldn't look at any with less than 3 stars. go to the nursing home and discuss the problem. They will help. Ask to see their latest inspection papers to see what they were written up for so you know if there might be a problem.

my father went into a beautiful nursing home where he was very happy. He had no money as he had moved to Paris in the 60's so his SS was very little here as he worked most of his life in Paris. He came home and had to have his leg amputated so he couldn't go back to Paris and we couldn't take care of him. I think it took us all of 2 days to find the facility we wanted and we were very happy that he was so happy there until he died in 2010. it was all covered by Medicaid.

replies 64Dec 7, 2017 8:48 AM +00:00

The state has to pay for your care. Don’t bother with that LTC insurance bullshit.

replies 65Dec 7, 2017 8:57 AM +00:00

Once again, America demonstrates there are worse things than dying young.

replies 66Dec 7, 2017 9:03 AM +00:00
Medicare doesn't pay for long-term care.

I believe up to 30 days are covered if you require additional rehab/nursing care in an outside facility after being hospitalized. Typically, this might be after something like a hip replacement or a temporarily disabling stroke. If progress is made, you get to go home and finish recuperating. If not, the rest of the bill is on your dime.

replies 67Dec 7, 2017 9:23 AM +00:00

Nursing homes that take Medicaid are exactly what you'd expect for Medicaid--crap

replies 68Dec 7, 2017 9:34 AM +00:00

Congress had passed a long-term insurance law to work along with Medicare, but because the GOP riled up the base that it was some evil communist thing, Congress quickly repealed it. (Medicare Catastrophic Coverage Act (MCCA) of 1988)

Obama also signed the CLASS Act which would have helped pay for long term care. Problems with its financing led to its repeal

replies 69Dec 7, 2017 9:39 AM +00:00
R28: This makes me think Suze Orman is correct about buying Long Term Care Insurance.
Does anyone here have it? I think Suze says you should get it in your 50s. Does that sound right?

Yes, I’ve had it since about age 40 and employed at a really good job. The employer sponsored the plan. That was 17 years ago. I’m keeping it. As an eldergay, there’s nobody to take care of me and we unfortunately are really longed lived. If my former smoking habit doesn’t catch up to me, I could live to 90 like Pop. Ugh. I really don’t want that.

replies 70Dec 7, 2017 9:44 AM +00:00

Your state/situation may differ: My grandmother and grandfather entered a really nice senior home at 10K a month and lived there 15-20 years after which their savings were gone. My grandfather died. My grandmother was state supported for her last year there before she died.

They move you into the worst part of the rest home for that, btw. You share a room, then you have just a bed. That's how it works.

The business plan of these places involved basically leeching every last cent from people before they die and then having the state pic up the tab. They get really anal about who gets the last 15 K of the money when they have already taken millions, so if your relative or yourself wants to gift anyone the 13K a year, or have anything in the will, make arrangements BEFORE you get to the endpoint.

replies 71Dec 7, 2017 9:48 AM +00:00


replies 72Dec 7, 2017 9:49 AM +00:00

Fucking asshole Paul Ryan said today that 'to deal with the deficit' (yeah, that same deficit the GOP is exploding with their tax breaks to billionaires and which isn't a problem in that instance) by cutting Medicare and Medicaid. Anybody voting for the GOP is too fucking stupid to vote.

replies 73Dec 7, 2017 10:18 AM +00:00

This is a heart breaking thread. And country. What’s wrong with people?

replies 74Dec 7, 2017 10:19 AM +00:00

My aunt was in a nursing home for several years. She had been independently wealthy but they ate up all her savings and she ended up broke and on Medicaid. My sister used to visit her a lot and complained the staff were absolute idiots. I went with her once and we stood around at the reception for 10 minutes (no exaggeration) while half a dozen staff members chatted amongst themselves. Shocking. And given the low calibre of the people working there (they hire ex-cons), they weren't getting high salaries so somebody was making a fortune off these places.

replies 75Dec 7, 2017 10:25 AM +00:00

the thing i hate the most is cruelty to animals and elderly people. so many elderly people are slapped around in these nursing homes because they pooped in bed or whatever. then you have pissed off people cleaning up shit, and resenting the residents. awful people are out there hurting our loved ones. keep your eyes open for your family and other peoples family members. they don't realize if they hate their job they should quit and do something else, instead they push around old people. :(

replies 76Dec 7, 2017 11:54 AM +00:00

I wouldn’t want to clean up shit.

replies 77Dec 7, 2017 12:05 PM +00:00

So basically everyone wants great care but not pay for it. Good luck in your old ag3.

replies 78Dec 7, 2017 3:31 PM +00:00

To reiterate, my friend has always had a bad relationship with his mother and doesn't really care what happens to her at all. He just doesn't want to be stuck paying for anything. The hospital is trying to make him feel bad. It would've been better if she had just died, but she seems determined to linger. He's worried sick that he's going to end up being held responsible for her financially.

replies 79Dec 7, 2017 3:45 PM +00:00

OP, I don’t know; however, it’s unusual. Normally, you can’t be billed for a parent or anyone except for a legal dependent.

replies 80Dec 7, 2017 6:01 PM +00:00

No easy answer to this one.

replies 81Dec 7, 2017 6:17 PM +00:00

More info from Assisted Living Directory in the link. A friend is facing this problem. He mother was asked to leave her assisted living apartment when she showed signs of dementia. They did not have dementia care there. The place he found was double what she paid for the apartment. Now she has about one year of savings left. He's selling her home to keep her going another 3-4 years. She's 93 but has a 100 year old sister so could easily outlive her income. The hardest part comes when you run out of money and are still in somewhat good health. Her dementia is minor, state of mind actually improved when she moved in to the care home where she gets 24-hr a day care. It's a sad day when you hope your parent will die before they run out of money. A wealthy country like ours should make it easier for the frail elderly to have safe homes. Care giving is a tough job, Working adults with small homes can not always bring their parents home to live. My friends is in an upstairs unit, no elevator. His mother can't climb stairs.
replies 82Dec 7, 2017 6:24 PM +00:00

Thanks, R80. My friend has been dodging phone calls from the hospital. He’s afraid if he doesn’t return their calls they can have him arrested for abandonment or something. He’s very upset that he has to deal with this.

replies 83Dec 8, 2017 4:46 AM +00:00

Other than parents and minor children, and sometimes spouses, people generally cannot be held liable for another person's expenses. Even after death.

replies 84Dec 8, 2017 7:26 AM +00:00

There's no need for a nursing home to "force someone to pay". Once a nursing home resident runs out of money the nursing home will apply for medicaid coverage for the resident. Once approved the state will pay the nursing home's bill every month. If the resident has any monthly income all but $50.00 will go to the nursing home and the state will pay the rest of the bill. That $50.00 is all the resident is allowed to keep.

replies 85Dec 8, 2017 8:15 AM +00:00

They have to take care of you. The state pays for everything. Don’t believe that bullshit that you have to have money to go into a nursing home.

replies 86Dec 9, 2017 1:12 AM +00:00

R67, It's 100 days. But before that deadline the nursing home can claim to Medicare authorities that you cannot benefit further from their rehab, and then you have two choices: leave for elsewhere; or pay on your own.

This scenario happened to my mother. Because the facility's decision was sudden (Note: Discharge notice is always sudden.), I paid thousands for another week to get my house ready for her.

Between my husband and my mother, I am now familiar with our county nursing home and a corporate-owned one. Lack of staff, costs, cacophony, danger (rails to aid in walking in the tiled hallways are non-existent; no restraints are allowed to prevent falls from beds; etc.), pathetic options for entertainment; and indifference have convinced me to do whatever it takes to stay out of one.

replies 87Dec 9, 2017 1:48 AM +00:00

R86, Again, Medicare pays for 100 days of a prescribed medical stay. That's why they're called "nursing" homes. Medical authorities determine if the patient needs the full 100 days. Fewer, good-bye. More, pay up.

You have money? Pay.

You want Medicaid? It's for the indigent. AKA, sign your assets over to the facility. Married? Give over half of all assets, including all savings and investments, but for the shared domicile. Be prepared to provide 3-5 years of bank and tax records.

Medicaid also means no private nursing home. County home. Four to a "quad" room. Four televisions on simultaneously.

Many private places will not take dementia patients.

Getting old, as the saying goes, is not for sissies.

--R87 in PA
replies 88Dec 9, 2017 2:01 AM +00:00

But to answer the original question:

No unrelated (neither blood nor marriage) person can be held financially responsible for nursing home fees. And only some states have it on their books that adult children are responsible.

replies 89Dec 9, 2017 2:05 AM +00:00

Euthanasia is always an optia!

replies 90Dec 9, 2017 2:18 AM +00:00

Shady Pines Ma! Dorothy abused Sophia by threatening her all the time.

replies 91Dec 9, 2017 5:09 AM +00:00

So my friend found out he might be responsible for her. He’s considering bringing her into his home now, but wouldn’t he have to keep her there for a while so the death wouldn’t look suspicious? And he supposes he’d half to hire a nurse. Can you find one on Craigslist?

replies 92Dec 9, 2017 5:13 AM +00:00

There’s a black market for nurses. She can make it look like a matural death.

replies 93Dec 9, 2017 5:16 AM +00:00

After a certain age illicit and fun drugs should be made available to the elderly so they can speed the decline in an enjoyable way.

I hope this happens by the time I need it.

replies 94Dec 9, 2017 5:17 AM +00:00

R94, I smoked and did coke for much of my 20s. Plan to pick it up again in my 80s.

replies 95Dec 9, 2017 5:57 AM +00:00

R92, Exactly what is the relationship? Mother/son? Aunt/nephew? Older sister/younger brother?

Because only the former would carry even a remote chance of responsibility.

replies 96Dec 10, 2017 4:13 AM +00:00

Medicare will pay 100% for 20 days of rehab in a nursing home that offers a rehab program. That's all they'll pay directly to a nursing home.

replies 97Dec 10, 2017 4:23 AM +00:00

First you have to find a nursing home that accepts Medicaid and Medicare. Everyone over 65 gets Medicare.. It pays for a limited amount of time in a "rehab" or skilled nursing facility. Medicaid is for people in financial distress. It pays for all your healthcare needs and nursing home care too. Now the other thing that kicks in is your state's laws. Because in many places the state can "recover" it's Medicaid costs to the extent possible, from a person's "estate" once they die. If the person is not dead, and you are legally responsible for the person, they can certainly come after you for any costs incurred from care. If the person is mentally competent and you are not legally responsible, then no worries.

In my mother' s case she was mentally alert and fit. She went into a "rehab" long term care facility and Medicare paid for it for two months. Then all her savings had to be liquidated except for burial costs, and she went on Medicaid. So Medicare paid for part of her medical care Medicaid paid the rest and her social Security and pension checks were signed over to the Nursing facility. So if her income was like $3,000 a month, and the monthly tab for her care was $6000, then Medicaid picked up the tab for the balance. Since my mother was not a home owner and left no estate, the state couldn't recover any costs.

I will say that the average stay for an elderly person in a nursing home is less than 3 yrs. They usually die by then.

replies 98Dec 10, 2017 4:29 AM +00:00

Actually, the average stay in a nursing home is 9 months.

When you sign up for Medicaid, they are required tell you that you must agree to return home if you don't need nursing care anymore. Of course, that never happens, unless you went there temporarily to recover from surgery, etc. It's strictly a formality, so don't freak out by thinking that your aged relative will have to return home one day.

replies 99Dec 10, 2017 8:51 AM +00:00

I started taking care of my mother 5 years ago in her home which she mostly owns and now she can hardly walk is wheelchair bound, incontinent and has worsening dementia. Medicare will not pay for a home attendant. Her Pension which I thought was decent barely lasts the month after paying for a home attendant a grand total of 12 hours a week. I started taking care of her full time a few years ago. I have to do something called a Pooled Income Trust to get Medicaid to pay for a full time attendant. It has been agonizing. She had me late and I have virtually no family left to help or even give a damn. I am in my 40s my mother is in her 90s and I feel like my life is over. Go see a social worker OP and do it as soon as possible.

replies 100Dec 10, 2017 9:03 AM +00:00

R100, your life is not over. Start looking into services that might be free. or shred. In our church there is a group that exchanges services instead of money. If you're willing to provide a service for someone they will provide services for you. This is short term stuff like babysitting for a couple hours so you can take a class or go to a movie or shop. There's also such a thing as respite care or adult day care which might be able to assist you.The fact is you do need someone to come in to help. What I'm suggesting would be in addition to that, more to help you because being depressed and feeling isolated is very typical for caregivers. Happens all the time. I went through this about 7 years ago with my mother.

replies 101Dec 10, 2017 9:50 AM +00:00

It’s my friend’s mother. He’s not interested in seeing a social worker or putting forth any effort or money on her. She was a horrible mother and a horrible person. He can’t believe he got away from her for all these years, and now she’s sucking him back in.

The hospital is breathing down his neck because they want to discharge her. He wonders if he can just drive somewhere far away and leave her somewhere, then say “Oh she wandered off.”

He’s beside himself and not thinking clearly at the moment. He just can’t believe he’s being saddled with this.

replies 102Dec 10, 2017 2:02 PM +00:00

OP/R102, I take it this "friend" is you. It's a safe bet that abandoning an elderly woman in the wilderness will get you into a lot of trouble. So, tell the hospital that you refuse to take her. They're a hospital, they've seen this before. If they feel that they can sue you, or that you can be reported to the local authorities for this, they will let you know.

replies 103Dec 10, 2017 2:27 PM +00:00

Just leave the old bitch somewhere. It’s not your responsibility!

replies 104Dec 10, 2017 10:55 PM +00:00

My friend finally relented and came and got her. The hospital was very nasty and threatening when he got there and he is very upset.

He has taken the old bitch into his home, and for now she is doped up in the bed. Hopefully she stays that way until he can figure out what to do. He is very upset and angry.

replies 105Dec 11, 2017 6:28 AM +00:00

"Don’t bother with that LTC insurance bullshit."

YES, bother with it. And the younger you get a policy, the cheaper it will be.

Most people want to be at home when they become disabled, not a nursing home. My father had 24/7 home health care - half was paid by her insurance. That means $7,200/month instead of $14,440/month. I'd buy it for myself in a heartbeat, but because of existing medical conditions, I'm UNINSURABLE. That's another problem for any of you thinking of buying LTC insurance, and the longer you wait, the more odds that you'll become uninsurable too.

replies 106Dec 11, 2017 7:37 AM +00:00

Make sure before you buy LTC insurance that the policy has a sliding scale cost of living clause. If you but it when you're in your 40's or 50's and don't draw from it until you're 80 the cost of living will not be the same so look at other things. Google "What you should look for when buying LTC insurance. " Inform yourself.

OP, as for your friend, if he has such a horrible mother, then for his own sake he doesn't need to have her in his house. He needs to find a place for her. he need not be financially responsible. He should just get her placed. Actually, if she is hospitalized again, a different hospital, ask a social worker to arrange for her care and make sure they know it would be solely based on her own finances not yours. They cannot hold you legally responsible if you are not. But work it through the hospital. So what if they think you're a bad person. Fuck them. It's not like you have them in your life. Jus tell them you have no relationship with her aside from the fact she is your birth mother. Who cares what they think. In fact, fine, let them feel sympathetic for her and place her somewhere. Good luck.

replies 107Dec 11, 2017 8:23 AM +00:00

Good article

A MUST, MUST, MUST read that appeared in New York Magazine by Michael Wolff On the way to visit my mother one recent rainy afternoon, I stopped in, after quite some constant prodding, to see my ins…
My Demented Mom
replies 108Dec 11, 2017 8:39 AM +00:00

Why are you all worrying about this stuff? The state, with help from the feds are going to take care of you. They HAVE to!

replies 109Dec 11, 2017 8:46 AM +00:00

I never knew how hard routine things like shopping and laundry can be. My Gram lived alone until she was 95 or so. Then she got a crew of full time attendants. I hope opium is freely available by the time I’m that age,

replies 110Dec 11, 2017 8:56 AM +00:00

R109, the US does not HAVE to. They should, one could argue, but I don’t think they have to.

replies 111Dec 11, 2017 9:10 AM +00:00

OP here. It really is a friend, not me. He’s worked up because the people at the hospital were nasty to him and he’s been reading about “filial laws” online. Apparently there are cases where nursing homes and hospitals are using these (which are on the books in 40 states) to go after children for unpaid monies after a patient dies.

I have just spoken with him and think I have calmed him down somewhat. She is not a physical danger to him, and she isn’t able to communicate well. Anyway, I told him that he needs to investigate her financial situation and get a lawyer.

She is on Medicare and gets at least one pension. He might even be able to take out a life insurance policy on her. I told him to find a cheap nurse on Craigslist. My friend has plenty of money, that’s not the issue. He just resents having to spend it on her.

I told him that there’s a possibility of a big financial payoff and he shouldn’t be so quick to want to get rid of her. It could help make up for the hell she put him through.

replies 112Dec 11, 2017 9:13 AM +00:00

r110 opium binds up your bowels tighter than a snare drum.

replies 113Dec 11, 2017 9:24 AM +00:00

just stuff that nasty old crone in that red donation box at the sally anne!

replies 114Dec 11, 2017 9:26 AM +00:00

my mom always joked: "if i ever turn up missing, (pointing at me) check his trunk!"

replies 115Dec 11, 2017 9:27 AM +00:00

Now that I know the whole story OP fuck you and fuck your friend. You have not how idea what a repulsive person you are do you ? May you never be old and at the mercy of cold heartless fucks such as you and your friend.

replies 116Dec 11, 2017 9:30 AM +00:00
Nursing homes that take Medicaid are exactly what you'd expect for Medicaid--crap

More bullshit and lies. Most nursing homes are terrible, they aren't country clubs!

Most ppl in nursing homes, with or without money, are being subsidized by Medicaid so they can remain longterm. My dad was on Medicaid for the nursing home, yet he continued to pay for this Medicare and secondary private health insurance. There was no alternative, his secondary health insurance only paid for 100 days in the nursing home, after that, Good Luck!

I was able to do this by transferring my parents assets to my mom. Then there's a legal document which my mom signed, showing she refused to pay for his nursing home stay, which would have cost $400 a DAY. $400 for what? There wasn't even a doctor at this dump. Private nursing homes screw people over everyday, yet the government does NOTHING. These places turn people into paupers. There is legal way to get around this and if a person know how to do it, they can keep pretty much all of their assets.

The other alternative is to give all your assets to one of these dumps or to take out a third health insurance for longterm care. Another alternative, is to give the nursing home your social security check and your pension, if you get one, that is.

replies 117Dec 11, 2017 9:36 AM +00:00
He just can’t believe he’s being saddled with this.

He sounds like an idiot.

replies 118Dec 11, 2017 9:38 AM +00:00

At her age and medical condition no insurance company on earth is going to write a life insurnace policy on her. He can put that right out of his mind without further thought.

replies 119Dec 11, 2017 9:45 AM +00:00

Look up "Miller Trust." A lawyer can draw it up -- the trust takes all the elder's money and pays it to the nursing home. Then Medicaid makes up the rest because techically, the person would have no assets other than a trust. If that person has a house he or she shares with a spouse or disabled child, it's exempt. If not, I think it has to be sold with the money going to the nursing home.

Look up the states that have "filial responsibility" laws. They're almost never enforced -- but just in case the state comes after you under one of these laws to pay for your elderly parent, then move to a state that doesn't have the law and you won't be responsibility. I'll try to look up "filial resposibility" states and come back with a list.

You do NOT have to pay unless the state prosecutes in one of those states -- which, at the moment, is rare but some states are looking to enforce the laws to make money.

replies 120Dec 11, 2017 9:51 AM +00:00

There's a loophole I believe - if the elder had a house and a caretaking relative lived in that house with the old person, taking care of them for some amount of time, a couple years maybe? -- then the house can become theirs and be exempt. A lawyer could advise on that.

replies 121Dec 11, 2017 9:52 AM +00:00

Currently, thirty states (Alaska, Arkansas, California, Connecticut, Delaware, Georgia, Idaho, Indiana, Iowa, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maryland, Massachusetts, Mississippi, Montana, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Jersey, North Carolina, North Dakota, Ohio, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Dakota, Tennessee, Utah, Vermont, Virginia, and West Virginia) have passed filial (due from son or daughter) responsibility laws. In a nutshell, these laws require adult children to financially support their parents if they are not able to take care of themselves. This includes food, clothing, shelter, and medical needs. The laws vary from state to state, but in general, the following is what you need to know if this may apply to you.

Very broadly, the following criteria need to be met in order for filial responsibility laws to apply:

Your parent is accepting financial support from the state government. Your parent has a medical or nursing home bill, acquired in the state which has a filial responsibility law, which they cannot pay. Your parent is considered indigent, meaning the cost of their care is exceeding their Social Security benefits. Your parent does not qualify for Medicaid, which would typically be used to cover such expenses. The caregiver has reason to believe the patient’s child has the money to pay the bill, and chooses to sue the child for what is owed.

If you are sued and a court of law holds you accountable for the bills, you risk stiff penalties for not paying them, including possible jail time. In some states, judges have the discretion to garnish your wages or place a lien on any property you owe in an attempt to collect the money. Having either of those things happen to you will result in your credit rating being lowered.

The positive news is that judges also have the discretion over deciding to enforce filial responsibility laws. If you can demonstrate that you do not have the financial means to pay for your parent’s bills, the court system is generally not inclined to impoverish you by making you responsible for them. Additionally, if you can show that you have significant family expenses you are dealing with otherwise, such as medical bills of your own, or even college tuition, a judge may exempt you from having to pay your parent’s debts as well.

Finally, if you can demonstrate that your parent abused or abandoned you as a child, the law typically considers that individual to be undeserving of your support. (Some states do require a certain number of years of abandonment prior to age 18 in order for the abandonment rule to apply.)

If you live in one of the states mentioned and fear that you may be sued under filial responsibility laws, your best course of action is to seek out an elder care attorney in your state for further advice. Alternately, you may wish to consult with an elder care attorney if you would like to put a plan in place to make sure your parent will be provided for in the event they need long term care in the future.

replies 122Dec 11, 2017 9:54 AM +00:00

Why are you all so god damned dumb? Just leave the old witch outside a police station. You know, safe haven crap. They’ll find a place for the old bitch and you won’t be responsible for anything.

replies 123Dec 11, 2017 12:30 PM +00:00

I was my mother's primary caregiver for the last two years of her life at her home to keep her out of a nursing home. It wasn't until after she died last year at 97 from Alzheimer's that I learned that I could have been receiving a salary check from Mass Health(Massachusetts) for my efforts.

replies 124Dec 11, 2017 12:56 PM +00:00

"Find a cheap nurse on Craigslist"

There's no such thing as a cheap nurse.

True to a point, R117. Hebrew Home for the Aged in Riverdale is really nice, almost country club-like. They take Medicaid. Get on the waiting list now.

replies 125Dec 11, 2017 1:03 PM +00:00

In my state a person entering a nursing home is allowed to have a maximum of $2000.00 in monetary assets. You can set up a "burial account" with a bank for up to $10,000.00 and that money can not be touched by the nursing home or the state. Each month when the resident pays their share of their monthly nursing home bill they are allowed to keep $50.00 cash and Medicaid pays the rest.

replies 126Dec 11, 2017 1:09 PM +00:00

Pity climate change has diminished the number of ice floes.

replies 127Dec 11, 2017 1:19 PM +00:00

Asking for a 63-year old friend on a (somewhat related basis). She's on SSI (& thereby also gets Medicaid). She recently inherited the home in which she lived with her now-deceased Mother. The house is an exempt asset, so that shouldn't have an impact on her benefits. But she's considering selling the house (& it may sell in the $200,000 range), and moving to a subsidized apartment or buying a small condo & pocketing the rest of the money. Will the sale of the home, followed by either of the above scenarios potentially disqualify her?

replies 128Dec 11, 2017 1:22 PM +00:00

When it comes to nursing homes, I think living in a small community is best. Just about every single patient in a small town nursing home is on Medicaid. Since they're all on Medicaid, there's no discrimination and they all get the same treatment.

replies 129Dec 11, 2017 1:25 PM +00:00

I want her brass bed!

replies 130Dec 11, 2017 1:27 PM +00:00

OP, your friend, for his own peace of mind, and for her comfort, should get her out of his house. If he can afford to, just put her in subsidized apartment if she is income eligible, otherwise get her in a small apartment with around the clock care or conversely, put her in a nursing home and pay the cost or as much of it as you have to, and just resolve it! Out of sight, out of mind.

replies 131Dec 11, 2017 2:01 PM +00:00

Most nursing homes have a separate wing for the Medicaid folks but if you ask they will swear up and down that those folks aren't treated any differently.

I'm moving to a state that has euthanasia before I get to that point. Nursing homes are hell on earth.

replies 132Dec 11, 2017 2:18 PM +00:00

This sounds like a job for Dr. Kevorkian.

replies 133Dec 11, 2017 4:14 PM +00:00

I’m advising my friend to look into getting power of attorney before anything else. Maybe he can sell her house before putting her in a home? That way he’ll get the money and not the nursing home.

replies 134Dec 11, 2017 4:42 PM +00:00

R134 Don’t be so ignorant. He will have to disclose the sale of her home. The state will get the $$.

replies 135Dec 11, 2017 4:44 PM +00:00

That is complete bullshit R132. In the vast majority of nursing homes almost every resident who stays long enough ends up on Medicaid paid residency. The few nursing homes for the very rich notwithstanding, few can afford to pay between $5000 - $10,000 a month to stay in a nursing home for long. Medicaid residents are not placed into special wings. Whoever told you that is a fool. If that was the case there would be maybe 1 or 2 residents in their own "rich wing" because all the rest would be in the Medicaid wing.

replies 136Dec 11, 2017 4:57 PM +00:00

R97, It is 100 days of rehab that Medicare pays for.

replies 137Dec 11, 2017 5:01 PM +00:00

R135, what if he spends it all?

replies 138Dec 11, 2017 5:03 PM +00:00

R134, a power of attorney doesn’t authorize you to steal from someone. Also: see R12 and the other replies concerning asset transfers and Medicaid eligibility.

replies 139Dec 11, 2017 5:06 PM +00:00

It sounds like the best course of action would be to hire a private nurse and avoid the nursing home BS. If he gets power of attorney, then he’d control all her money and leave Medicaid or nursing homes out of it.

How would it be stealing? At least some of it would be used to pay for the nurse. Besides, doesn’t he deserve something for his trouble?

replies 140Dec 11, 2017 5:07 PM +00:00

Wishful thinking, r109. BTW, you know the US of A has elderly homeless people, right?

replies 141Dec 11, 2017 5:11 PM +00:00

He probably isn’t going to keep her in his house. I suggested renting a small apartment for her and the nurse. She’s old and sick. Chances are she’ll be dead in a year or two.

replies 142Dec 11, 2017 5:14 PM +00:00

R134, What about "providing 3-5 years of bank and other financial records" to apply for Medicaid help do you not understand?

The Feds are 10 steps ahead of you. And then they'll want re-payment.

replies 143Dec 11, 2017 5:15 PM +00:00

R121, That was exactly my friend's brother's situation. Elderly infirm mother on Medicaid whom he cared for in her home (he is ten years younger than his sister, who has Parkinson's, so she could not help).

After her death, Medicaid asked for $47,000 re-payment, requiring him to sell the house. He got a lawyer and appealed, the debt was forgiven, and he was allowed to keep the house.

replies 144Dec 11, 2017 5:25 PM +00:00

R134, I’m going to advise him to not bother with Medicaid. It sounds like a racket.

replies 145Dec 11, 2017 5:28 PM +00:00

OP, when looking into a nursing home, be sure you know which ones accept Medicare and/or Medicaid. When my sister was helping me to locate a nursing home for my Dad, we had a guide that was available in the lobby of the local hospital. The guide had the information about which local nursing homes accepted one or the other or both. I couldn't get my sister to stop wasting time scheduling tours of places that didn't accept either of them. If a nursing home doesn't accept Medicaid, they can force you to leave, and then the search begins all over again. A nursing home will help the patient's family file for Medicaid if necessary (which is pretty often).

Private duty nursing can be a great option for many people. I wish I would have opted for that, instead of having my Dad admitted to a nursiing home after my Mom's death. He only survived her by a few months after he was admitted to a nursing home.

replies 146Dec 11, 2017 5:41 PM +00:00

I believe there's a 5-year look back on asset transfers (it used to be 3 years.) So if your elderly relative gives you his/her house or other assets, it's ok if they don't need Medicaid for the next 5 years. But if it's less than that, that disqualifies the applicant for Medicaid, for a period of time (I'm not sure what they make you do - give the property back or wait till the amount that was transferred would paid for Medicaid, and then you can get in.)

If you're on SSI, you must report all change in income so you can't sell your house, buy another, pocket the difference, etc. It would disqualify you. Check with an attorney to see if there's any kind of workaround but I don't know of any. It's for people of very limited resources and income, period.

replies 147Dec 11, 2017 5:44 PM +00:00

This whole issue is going to explode as baby boomers get older and older - and that generation had fewer children. Plus in our culture, many of those children don't want to take care of their parents in their home, as is the custom is some cultures. So as the Repugs seek more and more cuts to Medicaid, a disaster is looming. It is, anyway, but they're making it worse with this tax cut and focus on cutting Medicare and Medicaid (and Meals on Wheels, probably home health (what little there is), food stamps, etc.)

replies 148Dec 11, 2017 5:50 PM +00:00

WHY do you need a Registered Nurse? That costs as much as a nursing home!

replies 149Dec 11, 2017 5:59 PM +00:00

They'll cook her up and serve her as lunch to the other inmates.

replies 150Dec 11, 2017 6:09 PM +00:00

R146 Wow you must have loved your dad. I'm always astounded by people who truly love their parents. My parents and the parents of so many I know have been complete nightmares and they do nothing in terms of getting long term insurance or transferring assets in a timely manner.

Like OP's friend's mother they're miserable people who then cause their children more trouble when they're elderly.

OP Did your friend have to get her? Was he legally obligated? Now that he has her he might be legally obligated.

replies 151Dec 11, 2017 8:04 PM +00:00

You can do one of two things: Gt power of attorney, or get the title to the property changed so you both own it. Once you have clear title to the proerty you can sell it and bypass anything resembling probate and the state cannot touch "your house " or the money you get from the sale.

replies 152Dec 11, 2017 8:20 PM +00:00

R152 - unless the elder person whose property you get needs Medicaid (or SSI). They look back 5 years and if there was a transfer of assets, he or she can't get Medicaid. (SSI doesn't count your home UNTIL you sell it but they count the transfer of that home so its value then counts against the person who tries to get Medicaid.)

And get it in YOUR name only, not in both names -- otherwise, the elderly person is an owner and the value of property (or half of it) counts towards their assets, unless you're his/her caretaker for a number of years.

replies 153Dec 12, 2017 4:02 AM +00:00

The bottom line is that a person's assets need to be out of their name for 5 years prior to applying for Medicaid. If you have an elderly parent, you need to start planning for this before it's too late.

Same goes with any cash assets they have, but they'll need to trust you to hold on to that money should they need it.

replies 154Dec 12, 2017 7:49 AM +00:00

R137, Medicare will pay up to 100 days of rehab only as long as the patient's rehab hasn't plateaued before then.

replies 155Dec 12, 2017 1:35 PM +00:00

A 3rd. party who has signed an elderly relative into a nursing home can be held responsible for payment, but the agreement that was signed would have to name the 3rd. party and not the patient as the responsible party.

If payment is not possible, contact your state adult protective agency or adult Medicaid agency immediately. I found that there are programs such as a Miller Trust that may be able to preserve a portion of their assets, such as a home.

Good luck, OP.

replies 156Dec 12, 2017 4:01 PM +00:00