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Almost Like Being in Love: Judy at Carnegie Hall. Does anyone come close to this brilliant performance? - Part 2

Momma was fabulous. Phlease continue...

replies 344Oct 22, 2017 10:50 PM +00:00

Judy was an incredible talent. I sometimes look at her early films, when she was a teenager, and wonder what might have been if she had not been hooked on drugs. She is amazingly strong, talented of course, and one has to wonder...what might she have accomplished if MGM had not forced her into taking drugs so early on?

replies 1Oct 22, 2017 10:56 PM +00:00

Discussion originated here:

Considered to be the benchmark of live performance. Through the years, my favorite songs have included Rock-a-Bye and Come and Rain or Shine. Lately, I've been astounded by Almost Like Being in Love. ...
the DataLounge
replies 2Oct 22, 2017 10:58 PM +00:00

I must pause to watch "A Star Is Born" whenever it airs. The studio recording of "The Man That Got Away" that she did for Capitol Records is one of the best recordings of all time.

replies 3Oct 22, 2017 11:01 PM +00:00

"The Man That Got Away' sequence in ASIB is one of the greatest moments of the film. She is incredible. One long take, only she could have done it.

replies 4Oct 22, 2017 11:02 PM +00:00

Gayest thread in datalounge history continues... carry on fuckers!

replies 5Oct 22, 2017 11:02 PM +00:00

Judy has always inspired wonderful threads here on DL.

replies 6Oct 22, 2017 11:08 PM +00:00

Remember her greatness. Let's try to post anyone from today that comes close to that level of talent. OK, I have no one, but GO!

replies 7Oct 23, 2017 4:24 AM +00:00

Except for Streisand, I can't think of anybody.

replies 8Oct 23, 2017 4:51 AM +00:00

That's the key. There's no one. Streisand is long past her vocal prime. No one can sing like Garland, even Streisand in her prime.

replies 9Oct 23, 2017 7:31 AM +00:00
Streisand is long past her vocal prime.

Yes, because she isn't a drug addict who committed suicide on a toilet.

replies 10Oct 23, 2017 8:43 AM +00:00

Vocally, Streisand, Eydie Gorme and Shirley Bassey were at least as potent as Judy. Maybe even better. What Judy had is hard to put into words. A sincerity and natural connection to her audience that the others don't have. It enabled her to rise above the quality of her performance.

replies 11Oct 23, 2017 9:25 AM +00:00
A sincerity and natural connection to her audience that the others don't have.

This really doesn't make much sense. Why did Streisand sell MANY more times the albums that Garland did if she didn't connect with her audience as well?

replies 12Oct 23, 2017 9:28 AM +00:00

Nobody here is bashing Barbra, r12 so stop getting your panties in a twist. We are just discussing the relative merits of their voices. Neither has to be 'better' than the other. They're both great in their own way.

replies 13Oct 23, 2017 10:36 AM +00:00

I'm speechless at this.

Pathe and Calamity Films have set Renee Zellweger to star in Judy, playing the legendary Judy Garland in the true story of the singer and actress’ final concerts in London. A February 2018 st…
replies 14Oct 23, 2017 10:52 AM +00:00

A dried up old hag to portray the greatest entertainer of the 20th century, or any century???!!!!!!

--Erna (world's number one Judy fan)
replies 15Oct 23, 2017 11:18 AM +00:00

R15 If the movie is about Judy's latter years, they will need to cast a "dried up old hag" to portray her.

replies 16Oct 23, 2017 11:20 AM +00:00

Something bad will happen to Mary r16

replies 17Oct 23, 2017 11:22 AM +00:00

A dried up old hag to portray a dried up, doped up, mentally ill entertainer, R15.

replies 18Oct 23, 2017 11:38 AM +00:00

R18 I hope you die in a grease fire. Everyone has their demons.

replies 19Oct 23, 2017 11:41 AM +00:00

Is Renee going to recreate the famous scene, singing Somewhere Over the Rainbow while gargling a mouthful of traveling salesman cum?

--June Gordon
replies 20Oct 23, 2017 11:44 AM +00:00

R20 it wouldn't be Datalounge without cunts like you.

replies 21Oct 23, 2017 11:46 AM +00:00

R19/R21 is not going to like this bio-pic!

replies 22Oct 23, 2017 11:48 AM +00:00

It'll never get made.

replies 23Oct 23, 2017 12:11 PM +00:00

I want to see a movie about Judy's MGM years, not about the very sad last year of her life. This depresses me.

replies 24Oct 23, 2017 1:11 PM +00:00

OMG eldergays fighting over who is the better vocalist between Judy Barbra, etc. OMG gayest thing I have ever witness. I need to leave now! So embarrassing! Its like the other embarassing gays fighting over who is better Celine vs Mariah... pathetic@

replies 25Oct 23, 2017 1:14 PM +00:00

I don't disparage Barbra, and maybe she was technically better. But, I cry when I see Garland sing Man That Got Away, or When the Sun Comes Out. I'm thrilled by Barbra, but she's never moved me to tears.

replies 26Oct 23, 2017 1:17 PM +00:00

R26 That probably has a lot to do with knowing how sad Garland's life was vs. Streisand's.

replies 27Oct 23, 2017 1:23 PM +00:00

What could have happened differently at MGM that would not have destroyed Judy at the studio? I think a key mistake was her marrying Vincente Minnelli. Unlike her first husband David Rose (who to my knowledge, never cashed in on Judy with books or articles), Minnelli was a diehard studio man who would try to instill in her the belief that MGM and Arthur Freed had only her best interests in mind. MGM thought he could control her and keep her in line.

If, following Rose, Judy had married a stronger man who was not beholden to the powers-that-be at MGM, she might have been spared Freeds slave-driving routine that ran her ragged and caused her to retreat even more into pills.

replies 28Oct 23, 2017 1:35 PM +00:00

I think Judy singing When The Sun Comes Up for the second time on her series is just pure light. Energy and sound. Pure feelings. She even sways as if feeling the electrocution of the moment that she's creating. Amazing.

replies 29Oct 23, 2017 1:38 PM +00:00

R28: I think she was doomed regardless. I suspect that she was bipolar and that was never treated.

replies 30Oct 23, 2017 1:53 PM +00:00

R30 that's rather universally accepted. There was little help then.

replies 31Oct 23, 2017 3:27 PM +00:00

I think if she'd had a different mother, a loving woman who looked out for her instead of a stage mother who was only interested in Judy's moneymaking abilities, we'd have had a different adult hood from Judy. She had been so damaged by her mother who helped Mayer push the drugs on her as a child, and then by the death of her father, that it was difficult for Judy to believe that anyone truly cared about her. People in that position rarely take care of themselves.

replies 32Oct 23, 2017 6:15 PM +00:00

Add to that all her talent, R32. What a recipe for a sad personal life.

replies 33Oct 23, 2017 7:20 PM +00:00

AA and/or NA were both alive, well, and saving hundreds of lives in LA starting in the 1940s.

And both were and are 100% free of charge.

Some make it, but most don't.

replies 34Oct 24, 2017 1:35 AM +00:00

R34 she was a major star by what, 1939. I am aware of AA/NA being present in LA, but they may have well been located on Mars. She could never attend these meetings publicly. Think of the times.

replies 35Oct 24, 2017 12:48 PM +00:00

No one matches Judy, and there are plenty of other singers I like. IMO it's in her eyes and flesh, the way she connects to the audience even through the camera. Very few people have that. I loved her as a child and still love her now. There's something unmistakable about her.

replies 36Oct 24, 2017 12:52 PM +00:00

Listen to her various recordings of "You Made Me Love You" (she was what, 14??) Every single one rings true, yet they're all different. How she does this is beyond me. It's as if she's improvising the whole thing, when she's not. She had a natural talent that very few people have. She simply gave it all, and what she had was plenty.

replies 37Oct 24, 2017 12:54 PM +00:00

r37 well said

replies 38Oct 24, 2017 1:05 PM +00:00

Judy Garland in 2017 is still relevant enough for Hollywood to be making a film about. That's enough to put a kibosh on those who've said, or doubted her relevancy to people who are under sixty and not gay men.

replies 39Oct 24, 2017 1:22 PM +00:00

No one will ever match this. Prove me wrong.

replies 40Oct 24, 2017 1:24 PM +00:00

The only one who can come close to Garland is not Streisand. It was Frank Sinatra at the height of his powers.

They both had an uncanny way of squeezing every drop of meaning from a lyric.

replies 41Oct 24, 2017 1:24 PM +00:00

Still relevant in 2017, yes, but what you need is footage and soudreels. No performer will be able to mimic what she had.

replies 42Oct 24, 2017 1:25 PM +00:00
Vocally, Streisand, Eydie Gorme and Shirley Bassey were at least as potent as Judy.

What about me?

--Vikki Carr
replies 43Oct 24, 2017 5:16 PM +00:00

r43 only Streisand. Gorme was loud and pedestrian. Bassey is overrated.

replies 44Oct 24, 2017 5:20 PM +00:00

Remember that Garland was performing since the age of 2. She grew up in the theater. In vaudeville, specifically. Which is why she was bigger than life and why Streisand, when she performs, is not. Vaudeville played to the last row of the house. Streisand is fabulous if you are in the first twenty rows. If you're in the balcony it's less compelling. Don't get me wrong, I love Babs and have seen her live numerous times.

replies 45Oct 24, 2017 7:42 PM +00:00


replies 46Oct 26, 2017 8:29 AM +00:00

Hey, what about me? Judy loved me, Streisand was in awe of me, Sinatra hated me!

Lena Horne - Love me or leave me Love me or leave me or let me be lonely You won't believe me but I love you only I'd rather be lonely than happy with somebo...
replies 47Oct 26, 2017 8:55 AM +00:00

Wow Part 2! Judy, Judy, Judy... it’s all for you.

R39 yes she is loved by all, including this female who is under 50.

Someone from Part 1 posted a TV version of The Man That Got Away and asked who directed it. It was Norman Jewison, from the Judy, Frank and Dean TV Special, 1962. The show’s star was definitively Judy; Frank and Dean were ornamental. Very appropriate. Love it.

Much later, in one of her televised biographies, Jewison said that he has worked with many talented people in the film and television industries, and when it comes to Judy Garland,

“Nobody. Comes. Close.”

Of course they don’t.

replies 48Oct 26, 2017 9:12 AM +00:00
Judy Garland in 2017 is still relevant enough for Hollywood to be making a film about. That's enough to put a kibosh on those who've said, or doubted her relevancy to people who are under sixty and not gay men.

It is never going to be made.

replies 49Oct 26, 2017 9:44 AM +00:00

Does anyone comes close to the brilliant Carnegie Hall performance? Answer: No

But I will say this. In live performance, one artist tries really hard to do what Judy did. It is not Barbra or Edye or anyone else already mentioned.

Bette Midler is absolutely captivating in concert. Her 1993 tour, Experience the Divine, was unforgettable. The audience was on a rollercoaster - she brought major energy to every song and had us soaring, then would beautifully caress a ballad and had everyone in tears. I mean it would go from total hysteria to silence and back all night. And she happens to be funny as shit a la Judy.

Bette has spoken of Judy’s incomparable greatness.

replies 50Oct 26, 2017 10:17 AM +00:00

r50 you are right about Bette. I saw her 1983 tour in Pittsburgh in a small theater. And I've seen her dozens of times since, recently in Dolly. She can make you laugh and cry in the same breath. But vocally, she's nowhere.

replies 51Oct 26, 2017 10:43 AM +00:00

I agree. Bette is the greatest live performer I've ever seen. I wish I could have seen Judy live.

replies 52Oct 26, 2017 7:54 PM +00:00

Everyone said Judy's live performances were earthshaking.

replies 53Oct 28, 2017 10:15 AM +00:00

I got soudreels once back in the '90s but found a terrif podiatrist who cleared it right up!

replies 54Oct 28, 2017 10:20 AM +00:00

Bette really is way better live than confined to a screen. She's just busting with the kind of theatrical energy that can come across as phony or ridiculous on screen, but thrilling in the back row of a theater. I've often wondered what her Gypsy would have been like on stage. On screen, it's abysmal and impossibly hammy, but maybe it would have worked on stage.

I've also noticed that performers with less traditionally pretty voices like Bette Midler, Liza Minnelli, Ethel Merman, Elaine Stritch, Carol Channing, etc. comes across brilliantly on stage. They're so alive and in the moment that you could care less if the sound coming out of their mouth is a bit harsh. On recordings and on film, it might bother you more. I've often wondered why this is. I saw Glenn Close in Sunset Boulevard last year and, while she clearly is far from the best singer to have ever sung that score, she was so alive and in character that I seriously didn't even notice one bit. The same thing happened when I saw Tyne Daly in Gypsy. She was so in character that it was almost as if she made her own vocal limitations disappear.

replies 55Oct 28, 2017 2:29 PM +00:00

r55 really great thoughts. I too saw Daly in Gypsy and was blown away. The voice didn't matter at all. Same with Bette, Cher, Liza etc. Judy Garland really had it all, the stage presence to command traditional stage work, film work, radio and TV. That's what sets her apart from anyone else, really.

--I know- MARY!
replies 56Oct 28, 2017 4:19 PM +00:00

R55 and R56, I agree with your assessment of Tyne Daly as a performer and here is proof - a wonderful performance of "Trouble" from "The Music Man" (please see link below).

Tyne Daly performs "Trouble" from "The Music Man" with the Boston Pops
--Gay Woman, loving this Judy thread
replies 57Oct 28, 2017 7:47 PM +00:00

Tyne's really great in that clip. She just has musicality in her bones, which I think is really the most important part of a great musical performer. I also saw her in Gypsy and, for my money, she's still the best Rose I've seen in my life (and I've seen 'em all). Hilarious, charming, terrifying, disturbing, and heartbreaking all at once.

replies 58Oct 28, 2017 8:39 PM +00:00

Judy would have been a lovely Marion the librarian

replies 59Oct 29, 2017 6:05 PM +00:00

God, I HATED Tyne Daly in Gypsy.

--The lack of a voice fucking mattered
replies 60Oct 29, 2017 6:23 PM +00:00

Speaking of GYPSY, I bet Judy would have been fascinating in that role. VERY different, but fascinating.

replies 61Oct 29, 2017 6:24 PM +00:00

yes. fascinating. and she'd have sung the score like nobody's business.

replies 62Oct 29, 2017 9:56 PM +00:00

I wish she had sung some of the GYPSY score on her television show.

replies 63Oct 30, 2017 2:48 PM +00:00

I could swear I've heard her sing "Some People." Must've dreamed it.

replies 64Oct 31, 2017 12:43 PM +00:00

If Judy had cleaned up her health in the 1950s she could have breezed through the 1960s doing the film versions of Gypsy, Mame and Hello Dolly. She would have been perfect for all three.

replies 65Oct 31, 2017 12:50 PM +00:00

R64, could it be that you're thinking of the fine version Liza did at Radio City Music Hall?

Liza Minnelli - SOME PEOPLE (from GYPSY) ? Music: Jule Styne ? Lyrics: Stephen Sondheim ? AZNAVOUR & MINNELLI - Live at PARIS' PALAIS DES CONGRÈS 1991 ? Some...
--Gay Woman
replies 66Oct 31, 2017 1:53 PM +00:00

Here's Some People from the TV show

The Judy Garland TV Show
replies 67Oct 31, 2017 3:03 PM +00:00

That's it, R67, thanks!

(I NEVER get Judy and Liza mixed up - please!)

With more rehearsal, a different director, in the context of a show, she would have been even better.

I don't really like it when Liza does her fake New Yawk accent.

replies 68Oct 31, 2017 3:34 PM +00:00

I bought this album as a young lad and had to hide it in my room so my father wouldn't discover it. He was horrified by my love of Judy Garland, Leontyne Price, and Marlene Dietrich and would remark that no son of his was going to listen to "that fag shit" while he was around.

God knows what he would've done if he'd found my copies of City of Night and The Occasional Man!

--Uncle Rupert
replies 69Oct 31, 2017 3:49 PM +00:00

Oops, R64, I stand corrected! I should have given you more credit than that :)

replies 70Oct 31, 2017 3:54 PM +00:00

I believe Jerry Herman is on record as having envisioned Garland for Mame from the beginning.

replies 71Oct 31, 2017 11:04 PM +00:00

r71 I'll ask him.

replies 72Nov 1, 2017 9:14 AM +00:00

FYI, Garland sang "When the Sun Comes Out" on her show after Streisand famously sang it on Ed Sullivan. Judy phrased the song and handled the dynamics almost exactly as Streisand did (first)!

No bashing of either here- both are vocal geniuses and I love both as well. Just an FYI-

For my money they are both in a class by themselves at the top of the great popular singer totem pole. I DO wonder what Garland might have sounded like (never mind the effect on her career) as well has sung as time went on if she had not been such an addict. Streisand was very much in her vocal prime at 47 which was the age of Garland when she died.

replies 73Nov 1, 2017 9:33 AM +00:00

R68, Judy didn't rehearse.

replies 74Nov 1, 2017 9:37 AM +00:00

She was never in a Broadway production either. Producers would have insisted.

replies 75Nov 1, 2017 9:50 AM +00:00

If the show was after 1950, she would never have passed the insurance physical.

replies 76Nov 1, 2017 11:12 AM +00:00

R71, Streisand didn't sing it first. Judy was singing it at the Cocoanut Grove in 1958--it's on that album.

replies 77Nov 1, 2017 11:44 AM +00:00

^ that should be R73

replies 78Nov 1, 2017 11:45 AM +00:00

r77 took the words right out of my mouth. Garland at the Grove 1958.

replies 79Nov 1, 2017 1:10 PM +00:00

Edie Gorme recorded it in 1957

But Helen O'Connell is the one who introduced it.

I love the swanky 1940s orchestration. It really milks the melody.

Helen introduced this sexy torch song in 1941 and here sings the definitive version. Written by Harold Arlen of Blues In The Night, Stormy Weather, and Over ...
replies 80Nov 1, 2017 2:07 PM +00:00

R80, I knew Judy didn't introduce the song--but it seemed R73 thought that Streisand sang it before Judy got to it and implied that Judy copied her phrasing and dynamics.

replies 81Nov 1, 2017 6:41 PM +00:00

I love the sound of Judy's voice so much. And it's funny, I was immediately attracted to her as a child. I remember seeing her movies with Mickey Rooney when I was very small and I instinctively loved her.

replies 82Nov 1, 2017 9:23 PM +00:00

R82 me too. Maybe there was something boyish about her. I remember when I was a little kid having a big crush on Jodie Foster in those Disney movies she used to do. And Kristy McNichol.

replies 83Nov 1, 2017 9:31 PM +00:00

I'm still perplexed as to how ASIB could have lost money in that initial release. Garland hadn't made a film in four years and this was a big, sudsy melodrama with music. A sure-fire winner, I'd think. And wasn't. How did that happen?

replies 84Nov 1, 2017 10:05 PM +00:00

ASIB is kind of a chore to sit through. Too much focused on Judy. She has to carry the whole film on her shoulders. James Mason is a big nothing. "Meet Me in St Louis" works so well because of the sub plots and strong supporting characters.

replies 85Nov 2, 2017 2:19 AM +00:00

I agree, r85. As others have said, Mason and Garland have NO chemistry, so we don't really care what happens to him. His story should be as important as hers. We don't know WHY he became a washed up drunk - what did stardom do to him? - It just wallows in his degradation.

replies 86Nov 2, 2017 3:34 AM +00:00

Cary Grant wouldn't have worked either. I think that William Holden would have rocked it.

replies 87Nov 2, 2017 5:47 AM +00:00

Interesting. I hadn't considered Holden for the role but he certainly did play a drunk convincingly. And he was a great actor and very sexy at that time.

replies 88Nov 2, 2017 9:06 AM +00:00

A Star is Born can kinda be a slog at times. It has brilliant moments, but I think another 20 minutes removed would have helped it. Still, it's a masterpiece compared to that Streisand version.

replies 89Nov 2, 2017 9:46 AM +00:00

r89 you're right. It's just too much JUDY and a bad wardrobe does not help.

replies 90Nov 2, 2017 12:54 PM +00:00

I keep telling you, I COULD GO ON SINGING has none of those problems.

Find it, watch it, love it!

replies 91Nov 2, 2017 2:11 PM +00:00

Hmmmm...ASIB would have been good with William Holden. And Rosemary Clooney in the female lead.

replies 92Nov 3, 2017 3:40 PM +00:00

I think ASIB is a pretty terrific movie.

replies 93Nov 3, 2017 6:56 PM +00:00

Rosemary Clooney was a wonderful performer, but she didn't have the star power to carry a film like ASIB. And the truth is, she didn't photograph very well.

replies 94Nov 4, 2017 4:05 AM +00:00

I have mentioned before here about seeing Judy Garland a few months later in 1961. For me, the high points were "Come Rain or Come Shine" and "That's Entertainment." The later because Judy danced around the stage while the music is kept playing..

replies 95Nov 4, 2017 6:35 AM +00:00

Okay, R94, replace Clooney with Eartha Kit!

replies 96Nov 4, 2017 9:43 AM +00:00

Any other memories of seeing her, r95? I'm pea green with envy!

replies 97Nov 4, 2017 11:50 AM +00:00

On my seeing Garland perform in 1961: If you listen to the complete Judy at Carnegie Hall with earphones, it's the closest you can get to what she was like in person. Her voice had declined by the time her TV show started in 1963, The one essential TV special was Judy iwith Sinatra and Dean Martin, taped in 1961, but shown on TV in 1962. She at her peak there was well.

replies 98Nov 4, 2017 12:54 PM +00:00

R98 how did her voice decline? She sounds fantastic- especially in the concert shows. I think the decline happened after Hong Kong in 1964.

replies 99Nov 4, 2017 6:15 PM +00:00

R95 How lucky you are to have had your stereocilia vibrated by Judy's live voice. Cherish that memory. Hold it dear.

replies 100Nov 4, 2017 8:09 PM +00:00

Yes, the vocal decline came when she was put in an iron lung in Hong Kong. Her vocal cords were damaged.

replies 101Nov 4, 2017 8:32 PM +00:00

R95 I remember you posting about seeing Judy Live here. Didn't your Aunt take you to a concert in New York?

Listing to her live album as a child and adult, that had to have been so memorable. She held an audience like no other!

replies 102Nov 4, 2017 9:05 PM +00:00

Back in my student days in NYC, about once a year I'd turn off the lights in my bedroom, turn the stereo sound up loud and play the Carnegie Hall album, imagining I was there watching her. It was always a thrilling experience.

replies 103Nov 4, 2017 10:26 PM +00:00

Who is Hollywood should play Judy in the biopic that DL should produce?????

replies 104Nov 5, 2017 3:15 PM +00:00

Dame Shirley Bassey is an electrifying live performer. She is probably closest to Judy in terms of the devotion of her fans. She started performing as a headliner in the late 50s and only retired a few years ago. Her shows lack spontaneity but her vocal power and conditioning has always been staggering.

replies 105Nov 5, 2017 3:16 PM +00:00


replies 106Nov 6, 2017 11:32 AM +00:00

Shirley Bassey does not know subtlety - EVER. For that reason alone, R105, she doesn't serve to be mentioned with Garland, Streisand or any in the top echelon.

replies 107Nov 6, 2017 12:12 PM +00:00

Shirley Bassey is wonderful but she's her own thing.

replies 108Nov 6, 2017 12:26 PM +00:00


replies 109Nov 6, 2017 12:46 PM +00:00


replies 110Nov 6, 2017 6:10 PM +00:00


replies 111Nov 7, 2017 9:31 AM +00:00

Shirl has always acknowledged Judy (as well as Miss Dorothy Squires) as an influence.

replies 112Nov 7, 2017 9:34 AM +00:00

I listen to Judy a lot. I've concluded that she was sublime vocally until late '63. There were also some moments in '65 (The Music That Makes Me Dance), and some of the renditions on the Palace album are good- but by late '67 someone should have done something to help her. I know if I could have I would have.

replies 113Nov 7, 2017 12:10 PM +00:00

She sounds great at the Harold Arlen tribute in November 1968.

replies 114Nov 7, 2017 12:30 PM +00:00

r114 you're right I forgot that night! Imagine if it were Florence Henderson!

replies 115Nov 8, 2017 3:35 PM +00:00

I'd forgotten all about that story, R115.

replies 116Nov 9, 2017 11:33 AM +00:00


replies 117Nov 10, 2017 6:28 AM +00:00

One of the biggest theaters in Hollywood (the ARCLIGHT) is showing Meet Me In St Louis next week! How nice it would be to see it on the big screen.

replies 118Nov 12, 2017 4:13 PM +00:00

Judy's Presenting Lily Mars was supposedly her favorite among her films, according to daughter Liza. She certainly looked beautiful in it, that's probably why.

replies 119Nov 12, 2017 9:34 PM +00:00

"Presenting Lily Mars" is sort of a hodgepodge of story and song with two big bands thrown in. You can tell it is a Joe Pasternak production as it aims simply to be breezy, fun entertainment. Like Judy's other two Joe Pasternak films "In the Good Old Summertime", and the delightful "Summer Stock" it succeeds wonderfully at its goals.

"Lily Mars" approaches A-List only in its dazzling finale a lavish medley ending in "Broadway Rhythm" complete with extravagant choreography, perhaps Judy's best dancing on film, and her partner is future director Chuck Walters who also dances with Judy in "Girl Crazy". Judy is sublime in the number.

The finale replaces the original number filmed, a song called "Paging Mr. Greenbacks" which I'm not sure survives. Has anyone even heard the audio?

From Presenting Lily Mars (1943), starring Judy Garland and Van Heflin
replies 120Nov 12, 2017 11:34 PM +00:00

The audio of the "Mr. Greenback" number is on the essential Rhino double CD of most of her MGM musical tracks, including cut and fairly obscure early ones. It's energetic but meh. Stills exist of the completed number which was shot on the "Capitol Steps" set used in BABES IN ARMS. The "Broadway Rhythm" audio track on the Rhino CD is longer, with parts not in the film.

I like LILY MARS too. Judy is relaxed and funny and looks great.

replies 121Nov 13, 2017 3:36 AM +00:00

The film doesn't have the opening verse, thank god:

"Did you ever stop to think what a crazy world there'd be/ if we never had a song we could sing?/ Did you ever realize what a lovely melody/ can make a wintry world seem like spring?/When you hear d**k**s singing as they work and as they play/perhaps you'll understand when I say...."

replies 122Nov 13, 2017 5:01 AM +00:00

I think Judy's best dance number is in Summer Stock. There's a scene with Gene Kelly in which her dancing is out of this world.

replies 123Nov 13, 2017 9:01 AM +00:00

Oh, honey, do we have to censor "darkies"?

--everybody take a deep breath
replies 124Nov 13, 2017 1:27 PM +00:00

Judy did quite a few numbers in blackface in her day.

replies 125Nov 13, 2017 1:51 PM +00:00

I actually thought "I could go on singing" was a good piece of work showing Judy during these final good years.

If you haven't seen that film watch it. There is a scene that shows Judy's real persona perfectly. She's on the piano singing with her son's school friends. This little boy comes out of the crowd and starts doing the twist. It's so disjointed from the song and really funny. Judy turns to the little boy and says "You and I are the only ones doing any work around here". I'd be pretty certain all that was improvised and it shows how funny she was.

replies 126Nov 13, 2017 2:09 PM +00:00

Had Judy's 3 picture deal with Warners been fulfilled, what other two films do you think she'd have made? Carousel?

replies 127Nov 13, 2017 5:47 PM +00:00

She'd have been Julie in Showboat had she not been fired from MGM.

replies 128Nov 14, 2017 9:35 AM +00:00

She may not have wanted Julia. She may have thought the part was too maudlin. Julia's kind of a sad sack when you get right down to it.

replies 129Nov 14, 2017 10:24 AM +00:00

There really weren't a lot of 1950s musicals that would have been right for her.

If Comden & Green's Peter Pan had been made into a film instead of a TV spectacular, Judy would have been perfect for the role.

replies 130Nov 14, 2017 10:48 AM +00:00

I think she'd have been marvy in Oklahoma

replies 131Nov 14, 2017 10:50 AM +00:00

I agree, r130. 1950s musicals were all perky girl-next-door Debbie Reynolds, Mitzi Gaynor and Doris Day. Judy was too mature and 'knowing' for them. Even SOUTH PACIFIC would have been wrong for her. The only one that would have been perfect (which would have probably won her the Oscar) was GYPSY. (Duh)

replies 132Nov 14, 2017 3:52 PM +00:00

I don't think she was right for GYPSY either. She didn't do brassy, pushy, or inconsiderate. It would have been wrong on her. She was an amazing actress but everyone has a range to play, and that wasn't in hers.

replies 133Nov 14, 2017 4:39 PM +00:00

She would have been great in a kind of musical "Norma Rae" - the feisty union worker rebelling, the tiny person against the unfeeling monolith. And think of it ... 'Rae' is an easy word to rhyme for the title song!

Honestly, I think she'd have been well suited for the kind of movies Sally Field did; that is, if she'd lived a couple of decades later and been healthy.

But we can dream, right?

--Gay Woman
replies 134Nov 14, 2017 6:57 PM +00:00

R67 Jesus Christ, Judy Garland is so fidgety on uppers, it is exhausting to watch her bounce around the stage, flailing her hands and fidgeting her feet.

I do think she was very talented, but I find her insufferably hammy.

replies 135Nov 14, 2017 7:02 PM +00:00

Judy would have done a great GYPSY around the time she did I COULD GO ON SINGING. She was quite prepared to do bitchy in that film.

replies 136Nov 14, 2017 9:25 PM +00:00

R132 And I'm serious about Peter Pan. "Never Neverland" is as if it had been written for her.

replies 137Nov 15, 2017 3:58 AM +00:00

Had she lived she would have made a terrific Miss Hannigan, for reasons too numerous to list here.

replies 138Nov 15, 2017 4:37 AM +00:00

Had she been nine, she'd have made a terrific Annie.

replies 139Nov 15, 2017 9:09 PM +00:00

LOL it's true, she would have been a perfect Annie, maybe even saved that rotten thing from itself.

replies 140Nov 16, 2017 11:08 AM +00:00

While I don't think Judy would have played Rose in GYPSY in the typical brassy, bitchy Merman mold, I think she'd have brought something very different to the role. I can see her Rose being far more pathetic and disturbing than any of the others, because I feel like Judy would have played Rose like a dreamer - like someone with unrelenting optimism even in the worst of times. She genuinely feels like this dream is something realistic for her. I find that far more interesting than a bulldozer who yells every line. It would have probably worked well for a film version.

replies 141Nov 16, 2017 12:27 PM +00:00

I think that Garland would have slayed in Landsbury's role in The Manchurian Candidate.

replies 142Nov 16, 2017 5:51 PM +00:00

R128, when she didn't show up for the first week of shooting she WOULD HAVE BEEN fired all over again.

replies 143Nov 16, 2017 6:39 PM +00:00

I know there's dissent, but I think she'd have been terrific in South Pacific.

replies 144Nov 16, 2017 8:33 PM +00:00

If she hadn't gotten pregnant with Joey, I think we might have had another film out of her after ASIB.

replies 145Nov 16, 2017 9:56 PM +00:00

I think she'd have been lovely in Brigadoon

replies 146Nov 18, 2017 11:34 AM +00:00

She'd have been great in Shirley Jones' role in Elmer Gantry.

replies 147Nov 19, 2017 9:06 AM +00:00

She'd have been great in Shirley Jones' role in The Partridge Family.

replies 148Nov 19, 2017 9:09 AM +00:00

She'd have been great in Shirley Jones' role in Oklahoma.

replies 149Nov 19, 2017 11:11 AM +00:00

She'd have made an awesome Acid Queen in Tommy.

replies 150Nov 19, 2017 11:15 AM +00:00

She'd have been great in YENTL

replies 151Nov 19, 2017 11:17 AM +00:00

She would have been FABULOUS in "The Sound of Music".

replies 152Nov 19, 2017 12:00 PM +00:00

Judy would actually have been great in CABARET

replies 153Nov 19, 2017 12:10 PM +00:00

Actually, R151, although I guess you were kidding, I can picture young (around 25-year-old) Judy in YENTL, playing Hadass (the Amy Irving role). She was expert at projecting innocence and longing. She was small, physically shorter and more delicate than Streisand, who isn't very tall herself. That would have made the illusion of Streisand as a man more believable when they were onscreen together. Judy had those big dark eyes and the vulnerability necessary for the part. She would have looked beautiful filmed in the Rembrandt-painting-look cinematography Barbra used. She could also have added a trace of an accent with no trouble (think of Judgement at Nuremberg). There could have been one or two really fabulous duets of the intertwining inner thoughts of Anshel (Streisand) and Hadass, plus a solo for Hadass, for balance with all the Anshel inner-thoughts solos.

--Gay Woman again
replies 154Nov 19, 2017 1:13 PM +00:00

Judes would have been a hell of an Acid Queen.

replies 155Nov 19, 2017 3:25 PM +00:00

She'd have been great in The Godfather, in Marlon Brando's role.

replies 156Nov 19, 2017 6:30 PM +00:00

AND, R154, Judy's experience with her bisexual side would have worked *perfectly* for the role!

replies 157Nov 19, 2017 6:34 PM +00:00

LOL, R157, I forgot to mention that!

replies 158Nov 19, 2017 6:47 PM +00:00

If Judy had made GYPSY in 1963, wouldn't Liza have been old enough to play Gypsy Rose Lee? That would have been something. And Lorna could have played Baby June!

replies 159Nov 20, 2017 9:42 AM +00:00

Fantasy casting needs to be at least chronologically plausible, doesn't it? Judy couldn't have appeared with Barbra in Yentl because she was dead. Even if she wasn't, she wouldn't have been 25.

Besides, I thought Amy Irving was perfect as Hadass.

replies 160Nov 20, 2017 11:39 AM +00:00

No it DOESN'T have to be chronologically plausible, R160.

She'd have been great in the De Niro role in TAXI DRIVER.

--Yes, she would
replies 161Nov 20, 2017 3:42 PM +00:00

Love it hale yes Judy would’ve slayed it in those roles, including Brando and DeNiro.

She could’ve played EVERY part in The Color Purple.

replies 162Nov 20, 2017 3:53 PM +00:00

Even Nettie, R162?

replies 163Nov 20, 2017 3:56 PM +00:00

Lol yes even Nettie absolutely. She would have knocked Celie, Shug and Sophia roles out of the park.

Fuck it, she would’ve and should’ve knocked Spielberg out of his chair and taken over.

replies 164Nov 20, 2017 4:11 PM +00:00

The actual song from Carnegie Hall that inspired this thread has not yet been posted.

Here we go.

I pretty much levitate everytime.

replies 165Nov 20, 2017 4:26 PM +00:00

r161 I stand corrected. In that case, Judy should have played Mandy Patinkin's role instead. She could have sported her beard from Born in a Trunk. And you know r154 that you would have wanted a glimpse of that sweet, sweet Judy/Avigdor ass.

replies 166Nov 20, 2017 7:21 PM +00:00




replies 167Nov 21, 2017 4:31 AM +00:00

Judy would have done a smashing EVITA

replies 168Nov 21, 2017 10:17 AM +00:00

She'd have been great in the Peter Graves role in Airplane, only she's also be drunk flying the plane.

replies 169Nov 21, 2017 10:23 AM +00:00

she'd have been darling as Marion the Librarian

replies 170Nov 21, 2017 4:47 PM +00:00

the most exciting popular singer to ever walk the planet

replies 171Nov 21, 2017 11:23 PM +00:00

The best there ever was!

replies 172Nov 24, 2017 9:41 AM +00:00

I have never forgiven Mel Torme for that nasty, bitter tell-all he wrote. What a piece of shit he was.

replies 173Nov 26, 2017 10:26 PM +00:00

R173 he rots in hell

replies 174Nov 27, 2017 5:19 AM +00:00

Care to fill us in, r173?

replies 175Nov 27, 2017 5:42 AM +00:00

I loved Mel Torme's book, it was dishy, nasty and fun. Judy doesn't come off well, but we all knew she was a screw up at the time. Torme didn't mean it to be nasty, he was all over every talk show interviewing for the book. I bought it when it came out in 1970, still have it.
replies 176Nov 27, 2017 7:01 AM +00:00

He lives next door to me, R175

--Freddie Fields
replies 177Nov 27, 2017 10:49 AM +00:00

Judy Garland would have been over weight for Peter Pan in the 1950s, and the Peter was perhaps associate with Mary Martin (Broadway and TV).

replies 178Nov 27, 2017 11:08 AM +00:00

Judy should have played Stritch on Broadway.

replies 179Nov 27, 2017 12:58 PM +00:00

After seeing how long the first thread was, and now this one, I borrowed a copy of the album from the library and just listened to it, twice, and in a word, wow!

Now I will go back to the original thread and read all 600 comments, and then come read this one too.

DL is truly a treasure, thanks for the heads up...

replies 180Nov 27, 2017 1:18 PM +00:00

r180 you're in for a wild ride. Enjoy!

replies 181Nov 27, 2017 2:55 PM +00:00

"Torme didn't mean it to be nasty..."

Oh yes, he most certainly did. There are people named in the book who disavowed it and said he lied and made up stories that never happened, all of which made Garland look bad. Lena Horne was one of them. After the book came out she said that she and Judy had always been friends and that the scenes he describes in the book never happened. Torme was a pariah for a while after this book came out, btw. Many felt it was in extremely bad taste for him to write and publish the book immediately after Garland's death.

replies 182Nov 27, 2017 9:08 PM +00:00

And btw, on a much later edition I noticed Torme finally wrote a forward in which he tries to excuse his vicious portrait of her by saying something like "No one knew about or understood addiction at that time." Bullshit. He was just a mean, nasty man who tried to make a buck off Judy's death.

replies 183Nov 27, 2017 9:11 PM +00:00

How old are you, r180? Just curious.

replies 184Nov 27, 2017 11:01 PM +00:00

The Coyne Sanders book on the Judy Garland Show is essential reading. It doesn't make light of Judy's problems, but it shows how CBS' cavalier attitude to the show undermined the stability Garland so desperately sought and needed. It's also a great early example of the media "dumbing down" a performer in a misguided attempt to "appeal to the masses". Judy was too "sophisticated", so they had assholes like Jerry van Dyke insult her with "You used to be fat!" and "whats a little old lady like you doing on television?"

replies 185Nov 28, 2017 3:55 AM +00:00

Coyne is dead, you know.

replies 186Nov 28, 2017 1:18 PM +00:00

R182, you're entitled to your opinion, but Lena Horne most definitely DID NOT EVER comment on Torme's book or ever say what he wrote was false. Don't lie to try to make a point.

The part about Lena in Torme's book that wasn't true was that she "was a good friend" of his. Period. She didn't say that, I did.

--R176, Lena fan
replies 187Nov 28, 2017 1:52 PM +00:00

Lena was a control freak perfectionist, and working with Garland in '63 had to have been a nightmare.

And, from Lena's 1965 autobiography, page 93:

"Florence Mills, I like to think, must have been a little like Judy Garland. A waif they could cry over and pity sometimes, perhaps feel a little superior to, but also kindly toward."

replies 188Nov 28, 2017 2:03 PM +00:00

I absolutely did read, years ago, a refutation by Horne of Torme's portrayal of her in his book. It stuck in my head because it was in that moment that I realized that much of Torme's book was possibly grossly elaborated or entirely made up.

Oh, and thanks for calling me a liar. Nice.

replies 189Nov 28, 2017 9:39 PM +00:00

Produce a link or a source, R189. It doesn't exist, regardless of what stuck in your head.

replies 190Nov 29, 2017 6:03 AM +00:00

Not everything is on the Internet, R190.

replies 191Nov 29, 2017 4:32 PM +00:00

Nice try, R191.

replies 192Nov 29, 2017 6:38 PM +00:00

Why don't you STFU about Lena and watch her and Judy in action. Glorious.

replies 193Nov 30, 2017 3:34 PM +00:00

Just as an aside, I'd like to put a word in for another great live concert recording, Lena Horne's The Lady and Her Music. Wonderful singing from beginning to end, peppered with some funny stories about her career. If you've never heard of Light Egyptian before, this is where you find out.

replies 194Nov 30, 2017 3:51 PM +00:00

FYI, Streisand's current Netflix concert is just. plain. wonderful. Elegaic but joyful in tone, it's one of her finest live shows.

replies 195Nov 30, 2017 4:02 PM +00:00

I wish PBS or TMC would take all her television specials and show them, one after the other, maybe on her birthday. That would be fun.

replies 196Dec 1, 2017 10:26 AM +00:00

Nice try, again, R193.

--Calling out liars
replies 197Dec 1, 2017 2:42 PM +00:00

^^ fucking loser asshole ^^

replies 198Dec 2, 2017 4:14 PM +00:00

R198 = trying so desperately :(

replies 199Dec 2, 2017 4:19 PM +00:00

Judy's been derailed before, she always comes back long after you bickering queens have gone.

replies 200Dec 2, 2017 4:44 PM +00:00

Thanks for that, R200 :) . The whole song's just great - Judy sounding and looking vibrant and charming as I remembered. But I'd forgotten how great the part is when Judy's singing a duet with the trombone, which (unusually for the times) was being played live in that scene. Wonderful.

--Gay Woman yet again
replies 201Dec 2, 2017 5:41 PM +00:00

Ever notice how dark the makeup is in Easter Parade? They all look like they've been lying out at the beach all day. I wonder why the makeup was applied to dark and heavy?

replies 202Dec 2, 2017 7:12 PM +00:00

I never noticed that before, r202, and you're right.

In most of her Technicolor Films (MMISL, THG, W&M, TTCRB, TP), Judy looks extremely, almost unhealthy pale. In the EASTER PARADE makeup they perhaps took notice and overcompensated a bit.

--Natalie Kalmus
replies 203Dec 3, 2017 11:47 AM +00:00

She looked her best in Girl Crazy. Healthy, strong and in control.

replies 204Dec 4, 2017 9:22 AM +00:00

R113, she was long past help.

As for Torme's book being over the top- if anything, undercooked. I know of first hand stories about how out of control Judy was at all stages of her life. Her story is harrowing. That said, she was a genius, no doubt about it. Both Streisand and Garland are show business geniuses- the vocal talents of all time for my money. Difference is that Streisand has been in total control of her life and career since the very beginning of it. It's reflected in their voices and musicianship. What they have in common is the ability to sing big, I don't mean just power. Rather to express the full range of emotions from joy to sorrow and everything else in song, phrasing and vocal color and to get to the core of almost anything better than anyone else.

replies 205Dec 4, 2017 10:18 AM +00:00

Totally agree, r204. I don't know why, but GIRL CRAZY seems to be somewhat underrated in her film canon.

replies 206Dec 5, 2017 3:49 AM +00:00

Girl Crazy has an incredibly stupid plot, but she looks great and her singing is gorgeous.

replies 207Dec 5, 2017 9:42 AM +00:00

The Pirate was well before its time.

replies 208Dec 5, 2017 6:09 PM +00:00

'I think if she'd had a different mother, a loving woman who looked out for her instead of a stage mother who was only interested in Judy's moneymaking abilities, we'd have had a different adult hood from Judy. She had been so damaged by her mother who helped Mayer push the drugs on her as a child, and then by the death of her father, that it was difficult for Judy to believe that anyone truly cared about her. People in that position rarely take care of themselves.'

All of what you said is total bullshit. Ethel Gumm was ambitious for her daughters, she wanted them to succeed in show business, but she was not the monstrous evil harridan Judy Garland portrayed her as, and she did NOT help "Mayer push drugs on her." Nobody stood over poor little Judy Garland, pouring pills down her throat. Everybody at MGM was given drugs but very few of them became hopeless, insatiable drug addicts like Judy Garland. One biographer said this of her: "Judy seems to have the kind of metabolism that welcomes foreign agents and transforms them into hungers that can never be satisfied. "

Judy Garland told a lot of lies. Drug addicts are like that. She was also probably bi-polar. She blamed everybody but herself for her troubles: she blamed her mother, she blamed Louis Mayer, she blamed MGM, she blamed Sid Luft. Everything she said had to be taken with a large grain of salt, and that includes her tales of abuse by practically everybody.

replies 209Dec 5, 2017 6:37 PM +00:00

"All of what you said is total bullshit." Fuck off, cunt. You have no idea what you're talking about. I've read every JG biography there is and nearly all of them agree that her mother was a bitch and a ruthless stage mother. She stood by while Mayer molested Judy and she stood by while Mayer forced Judy to take drugs to sleep and wake up. So go fuck yourself.

replies 210Dec 5, 2017 7:09 PM +00:00

Saw 2ncdcast of Norma at Met this evening. Angela Meade and Jamie Barton, the big cast. Barton minimum 250 pounds to Meade's 300. Rivals indeed. Anybody have better info or guestimate on this topic?

replies 211Dec 5, 2017 7:42 PM +00:00

Oops, wrong thread.

replies 212Dec 5, 2017 7:43 PM +00:00

R210, you are a fucked up idiot Judy Garland queen. I don't think you can read at ALL, because the better written and researched biographies of Judy Garland ALL make note of the fact that she was a liar and that her depiction of her mother was insane bullshit. I think you take Gerald Clarke's (he's a REAL big ol' Judy queen) "Get Happy: The Life of Judy Garland" as the gospel truth, but he gets a lot of his information from the ramblings of poor dear drug addicted fucked up insane Judy herself. She spend her life dissing her mother, Mayer, Sid Luft, etc. and Clarke laps it all up, not being bright enough to look at the facts and being a worshipful Judy queen.

Read (that is, if you can read) "Rainbow: the Stormy Life of Judy Garland" by Christopher Finch. It will relieve your ignorance. Now go fuck yourself, you deluded cunt. Judy Garland "molested" by Louis Mayer, who called her a "hunchback! Yeah, Louis Mayer was really hot for short, plain, barrel-chested hunchbacks. He wouldn't have touched Judy Garland with a barge pole, you ass.

replies 213Dec 6, 2017 6:19 AM +00:00
If Judy had made GYPSY in 1963, wouldn't Liza have been old enough to play Gypsy Rose Lee? That would have been something. And Lorna could have played Baby June!

I could have played a blue costume. Or a chair.

replies 214Dec 6, 2017 6:41 AM +00:00

r213, you are mentally ill. please, get help. you are a danger to yourself and to anyone around you.

replies 215Dec 6, 2017 8:01 AM +00:00

I blocked r213. What was said?

replies 216Dec 6, 2017 8:10 AM +00:00

R210, you were describing yourself, not Judy. Projecting onto and weeping over your favorite star is very typical. Boo hoo.

Note: Garland's older sister Suzy was an alcoholic suicide five years before Garland's. She wasn't ruined by Mother or Mr Mayer. The truth is that whole family is a bi-polar mess, regardless of environment.

replies 217Dec 6, 2017 10:24 AM +00:00

R216: It's just a homophobic, misogynistic rant by some deranged sociopath who thinks Judy should be held responsible for everything except possibly Roy Moore. You didn't miss anything.

It's the same worthless skank who shows up in every Garland appreciation thread.

Meanwhile, to get the taste out of my mouth, I'll take Judy's advice from the opening of Summer Stock. And watch her make the bed. I like watching her do homely things like that.

A fine song for in the shower. Give it a try! Copyright is acknowledged and belongs to Warner Bros., so, if you love this - buy the DVD.
--Hopeless fan
replies 218Dec 6, 2017 10:33 AM +00:00

Just block the Judy hater. She's waiting for her colostomy bag stew.

replies 219Dec 6, 2017 10:33 AM +00:00

R215 you are a deranged Judy Garland worshipping loony who can't stand to hear the truth about her. It tears you to pieces to hear anything bad about her. Maybe you should talk to someone about that. You've very ill. Worshipping a dead celebrity like that is very unhealthy.

replies 220Dec 6, 2017 11:54 AM +00:00

"It's just a homophobic, misogynistic rant by some deranged sociopath who thinks Judy should be held responsible for everything except possibly Roy Moore. You didn't miss anything."

"Homophobic?" What an imbecile you are. What's "homophobic" or "mysogynistic" about telling the truth about Judy Garland? And that doesn't constitute being a "deranged sociopath", either, you insane twat. Sounds to me like you're the one suffering from derangement. You're one of those nutj ob Judy Garland fans who are so insane with love for her that any hard truths about her make you have a hissy fit. Boy, are YOU fucked up.

replies 221Dec 6, 2017 12:01 PM +00:00

R219 seems to have a preoccupation with...feces. People like that are called coprohiliacs. They like to talk about shit and they like to touch it and it. I think if Judy were alive he would want to eat her shit. Yes, I'm pretty sure he'd love to eat the shit of his beloved.

replies 222Dec 6, 2017 12:05 PM +00:00

Am I the only person who can't block people while using Safari? On Chrome it's fine, but I usually use Safari and those options don't pop up.

replies 223Dec 6, 2017 10:42 PM +00:00

r223 I use Safari and I get those round icons at the end of each post, including the block icon.

replies 224Dec 6, 2017 10:48 PM +00:00

I wonder why I don't? I have them on Firefox.

replies 225Dec 6, 2017 10:50 PM +00:00

R225 Ad blocker?

replies 226Dec 7, 2017 7:52 AM +00:00
Judy would actually have been great in CABARET

Well, Cabaret was based on the 1954 play "I Am a Camera". And that play was based on "Goodbye to Berlin" written in 1939.

So actually, if Judy had been healthy and slim in the 1950s it could have been a great vehicle for her and Mickey Rooney.

Of course it would have been very different musical ... all cleaned up for the times. But the material was there.

replies 227Dec 7, 2017 8:12 AM +00:00

And I forgot to mention the 1955 film:

I AM A CAMERA (1955) Julie Harris.mp4 #2017 I AM A CAMERA (1955) Julie Harris.mp4
replies 228Dec 7, 2017 8:28 AM +00:00

Some people cannot accept that she was a very troubled person- probably bi-polar and an addict in her teens. He behavior at times was such that those closest to her would cease going near her, and at the end of her life all had, completely- her children, everyone. That's the end game of untreated addiction usually. That said she was a genius and her music and voice are for the ages.

replies 229Dec 7, 2017 9:13 AM +00:00

I do have ad that it?

replies 230Dec 7, 2017 11:41 AM +00:00

r230 Try disabling it on Hard to say if that's the culprit since different ad blockers work differently. Good luck. You need to be able block a whole bunch of posters around here or you'll go crazy!

replies 231Dec 7, 2017 1:54 PM +00:00

you are right! and thank you.

replies 232Dec 7, 2017 6:26 PM +00:00

that was it! I disabled it and the block feature is back. Glory.

replies 233Dec 7, 2017 6:27 PM +00:00

Cheers. Now let's get back to Judy!

replies 234Dec 7, 2017 7:08 PM +00:00

One of the Judy holy grails for me would be audio from her concert at the Robin Hood Dell sometime in the 1940's. I love Judy's voice in that period and I think a concert performance must have been astoundingly great.

replies 235Dec 7, 2017 7:53 PM +00:00

Whats great about the Robin Hood Dell concerts is after her concert comeback in '51, she mostly had one playlist. She sang material in the earlier concert she only rarely performed later.

I love the name Robin Hood Dell. Need to Google and see how long it lasted.

replies 236Dec 8, 2017 3:46 AM +00:00

The Mann Center for the Performing Arts was founded in 1935 under the name Robin Hood Dell Concerts, as the summer venue for the concert presentations of the world famous Philadelphia Orchestra (known from 1935-1976 as The Robin Hood Dell Orchestra in the summer). The Center moved into its present outdoor facility in 1976, and subsequently was designated the Mann Music Center in honor of Fredric R. Mann, a Philadelphia businessman who supported the cause of summer musical performances in Fairmount Park. In 1998, the facility was renamed to “The Mann Center for the Performing Arts” to reflect the Center’s plans to broaden its programming and service to the overall community.

--Googled it
replies 237Dec 8, 2017 4:17 AM +00:00

What was the impetus for her singing there, does anyone know? Why this one-off in the 40s and then nothing else?

replies 238Dec 8, 2017 8:12 AM +00:00

She sang at a deli??!!

--R. Rosannadana
replies 239Dec 8, 2017 9:39 AM +00:00

R239, Judy supplied the ham

replies 240Dec 8, 2017 2:28 PM +00:00

I used to have this on vinyl.

A classic show from the long-running radio series.
replies 241Dec 8, 2017 2:34 PM +00:00

"The Man I Love", "Do, Do, Do", "Someone to Watch Over Me" were some of the Gershwin songs Judy period at the Dell.

I recently got this from a brand new friend of mine in Canada, after doing a small post on Craig's list that I was looking for Judy Garland ...
replies 242Dec 9, 2017 5:32 AM +00:00

WOW! Why in the world wasn't that recorded?? Judy and Kostelanetz? Divine.

replies 243Dec 9, 2017 11:13 AM +00:00

Anybody like the precursor to the Carnegie Hall album, the concert in Paris from 1960?

replies 244Dec 11, 2017 9:56 PM +00:00

I love it r244. It's a very fine rehearsal to the big night in New York!

replies 245Dec 12, 2017 12:06 AM +00:00

There's also the 1960 Amsterdam concert which is the complete concert unlike the abridged Paris recording. She is in better voice in Amsterdam than at Carnegie Hall but her performance has been honed to goosebump perfection by the time of the Carnegie concert.

replies 246Dec 12, 2017 1:16 PM +00:00

The Paris, Amsterdam and Carnegie Hall recordings are priceless and I'm so glad we have them to listen to. OVER and OVER again.

--I know-- MARY!
replies 247Dec 12, 2017 4:28 PM +00:00

It's interesting to note the change in her voice from the Paris concert to the Carnegie Hall concert (I haven't heard the Amsterdam). In Paris, she sounds more like the 50's Judy, by Carnegie Hall she is definitely 60's Judy.

replies 248Dec 12, 2017 4:30 PM +00:00

R248 that's true. I think a lot of it is the arrangement is new to Judy.

replies 249Dec 12, 2017 5:01 PM +00:00

was Amsterday before or after Paris?

replies 250Dec 13, 2017 7:46 PM +00:00

Amsterdam was December 10, 1960; Paris was October 28, 1960.

replies 251Dec 14, 2017 1:03 PM +00:00

ah very cool. I need to listen to the Amsterdam concert.

replies 252Dec 15, 2017 4:44 PM +00:00

Comments? I think most of these are no-brainers, but one could certainly argue about the rankings. I do have to say that I have never seen, or even heard of, The Clock. (I know. Shame!)

If you love musicals then there is a pretty good chance that you are a fan of Judy Garland. No female star of classic Hollywood shown as brightly in musicals as Judy, who often held her own against (or out-shown) co-stars such as Gene Kelly, Fred Astaire, and Van Johnson. They called her “the little
Mark Robinson Writes
replies 253Dec 15, 2017 5:42 PM +00:00

"No female star of classic Hollywood shown as brightly in musicals as Judy, who often held her own against (or out-shown) co-stars such as Gene Kelly, Fred Astaire, and Van Johnson."

He thinks "shone" is "shown."

replies 254Dec 15, 2017 6:06 PM +00:00

Who was it who said that Judy was the only co-star of Kelly and Astaire who made you watch her instead of them? It's so true.

replies 255Dec 15, 2017 6:35 PM +00:00

That article is rubbish. I never read that Astaire did not enjoying working with Judy.

replies 256Dec 16, 2017 1:26 PM +00:00

From all reports Astaire loved working with Judy and was thrilled when they were cast together again in Royal Wedding and The Barkelys of Broadway.

replies 257Dec 17, 2017 10:29 AM +00:00
was Amsterday before or after Paris?

It was, apparently, after your second barbiturate, Judy.

--Babe Paley
replies 258Dec 17, 2017 10:31 AM +00:00
That article is rubbish. I never read that Astaire did not enjoying working with Judy.

I read that he refused to work with her again.

He was told old to be paired with her. Until she caught up with him in looks.

replies 259Dec 17, 2017 10:34 AM +00:00

Too old.

replies 260Dec 17, 2017 10:40 AM +00:00

Astaire's movies following Easter Parade paired him with women just as young as Judy.

replies 261Dec 18, 2017 1:58 PM +00:00

Does TMC ever show The Wizard of Oz?

replies 262Dec 19, 2017 3:55 PM +00:00

Yes R262

replies 263Dec 19, 2017 5:47 PM +00:00

I think Garland really stands the test of time, as we see Gaga playing Vegas so young, and clearly her career is done. Garland was NEVER done, even through March 1969. She may have been an addict, but she was gifted and so immensely talented. We'll never see that again.

-- Mariah Carey
replies 264Dec 21, 2017 4:09 PM +00:00

It's true. It is a great regret of mine that I never saw her live.

replies 265Dec 21, 2017 6:55 PM +00:00

Happy Judy Christmas!

In this charming live holiday TV special Judy is joined by her children, Liza Minnelli and Lorna and Joey Luft, and guest stars Jack Jones and Mel Torme. The...
replies 266Dec 22, 2017 9:37 AM +00:00

It's really a shame that Joey turned out to have AFS. I wonder if he'd have been a performer as well? He was very cute when he was young.

replies 267Dec 22, 2017 3:04 PM +00:00

I'm r264 and I should qualify my statement. When I saw Sarah Vaughn in concert at Carnegie Hall, 1985, I knew I was in the company of a genius. Much like Judy Garland in presence and depth of talent.

replies 268Dec 22, 2017 5:28 PM +00:00

I'm r264, and I must qualify my statement. When I witnessed the greatness of Sarah Vaughn, live at Carnegie Hall in 1985, I knew I was in the presence of a genius, an original. Much like Judy Garland.

replies 269Dec 22, 2017 5:30 PM +00:00

r255: I'd say Judy .....and Rita Hayworth. You barely notice Gene when he dances with Rita in COVER GIRL.

Cover Girl is a 1944 American Technicolor musical film starring Rita Hayworth and Gene Kelly. The film tells the story of a chorus girl given a chance at sta...
replies 270Dec 22, 2017 6:48 PM +00:00

Wow, R270, never saw it.

She had so much life and enjoyed it so much. Maybe there were dancers with more refinement, but Rita had IT in spades.

replies 271Dec 22, 2017 8:17 PM +00:00

I wonder what the Christmas Concert on the other side sounded like last night! I hear Judy was swingin!

replies 272Dec 25, 2017 7:00 AM +00:00

I hear Liza wanted to join her, but just didn't rehearse enough.

replies 273Dec 25, 2017 9:04 AM +00:00

r273 is that you, Bruce Vilanch?

replies 274Dec 26, 2017 9:28 AM +00:00

What I love about Judy is that she reportedly loved singing at parties. That's how you know that she loved what she did---she got up and did it for no pay, just for friends, and had a ball. Barbra would never do that.

replies 275Dec 26, 2017 10:57 AM +00:00

There are many stories of impromptu singing. One I remember is one that took place in the late '60's. Judy was staying somewhere with gay friends, and they were all partying. It was a hot summer night and the windows were open. Someone at the party put on Carnegie Hall and Judy sang the whole show along to the record. It was like 2am, and a neighbor awoke and followed the music to the house where Judy was singing. She knocked on the door, someone let her in. She made her way to Judy, who welcomed her to sit down. She sat and Judy continued. And all the while, the woman kept muttering "no one will ever believe me" over, and over.

replies 276Dec 26, 2017 2:44 PM +00:00

R276, Did the woman follow the screams of Garland saying "Faggot, faggot, faggot"?

replies 277Dec 26, 2017 3:36 PM +00:00

R277 blocked

replies 278Dec 26, 2017 4:15 PM +00:00

that's an incredible story, do you think it's true? I adore Judy.

replies 279Dec 26, 2017 4:48 PM +00:00

R279 I like to believe that it is.

replies 280Dec 26, 2017 5:47 PM +00:00

Oh poor R278, can't handle the fact that Garland only sucked up to the Gays because by the end that's all that was left. Her own daughter showed what Judy felt about gay men. Lorna Luft on her mother, "I didn't hear the word 'fag' from the kids at school. I heard it from my mother."

replies 281Dec 26, 2017 6:34 PM +00:00

I've heard that Liza, too, likes to sing at parties

replies 282Dec 26, 2017 10:51 PM +00:00

R282 Michael Feinstein's twitter feed has recent performances of he and Liza at the piano.

replies 283Dec 27, 2017 8:46 AM +00:00

I adore Judy...but.........really!

Provided to YouTube by The Orchard Enterprises Lady in the Dark (1953) · Judy Garland The Best Of The Radio Years ? 2010 Screenland Records Released on: 2011...
replies 284Dec 27, 2017 8:50 AM +00:00
What I love about Judy is that she reportedly loved singing at parties.

I heard that, while she did sing at parties, she often resented being asked. It was like asking an architect to draw a building after dinner. It was work.

replies 285Dec 27, 2017 12:52 PM +00:00

She probably didn't like being expected to sing at parties but sing when she wanted.

replies 286Dec 27, 2017 3:32 PM +00:00

R286 that's how I view it.

replies 287Dec 27, 2017 3:48 PM +00:00

I have read that not only didn't she mind singing at parties, she did it gladly and willingly simply because she loved to sing. Judy also understood the power she had over an audience, and bringing her Hollywood colleagues to their knees through her private performances must have given her more than a little satisfaction.

replies 288Dec 27, 2017 4:02 PM +00:00

"Do you think you can make me sing? I sing for me. ME."

~or something like that ~ in her greatest post-studio achievement, I COULD GO ON SINGING.

--The ICGOS Troll
replies 289Dec 27, 2017 6:23 PM +00:00

Her ""Come Rain or Come Shine" to the bongos is incredible. Youtube has her TV version.

replies 290Dec 27, 2017 7:38 PM +00:00

"What I love about Judy is that she reportedly loved singing at parties. That's how you know that she loved what she did..."

During my parent's party I was a kid in the 1960s (NYC suburbs), I heard adults talking about how Judy would come and sing at your party for $200 cash. She was that broke, and they thought it was pathetic.

replies 291Dec 28, 2017 7:42 AM +00:00

Judy died before I was born, a lot of her later in life singing is just too sloppy. She seems so different in films, so very anxious and PEPPY then later kind of slurry and bad tempered. When she sings there is a thrilling star and a great communicator though. That's what she was born to do. I don't think she was a great actress. She was an hysteric.
replies 292Dec 28, 2017 11:52 AM +00:00

r292 take my advice. Watch her films. Listen to her recordings. Watch The Judy Garland Show. Listen to her radio performances. READ about her. Then get back to us with your nonsensical reply.

replies 293Dec 28, 2017 11:55 AM +00:00

What r292 said was not dissimilar to how Arthur Freed described her: "Talent? The Best. But it's a hysterical talent."

Which only re-inforces my thought that Freed was basically a cold-hearted bastard. Many people consider that Roger Edens was the one with the artistic sensibility that made the Freed Unit the gold-standard of the Hollywood Musical.,

Judy had her problems for sure, but had Freed been a sensitive caring individual, I have no doubt Judy would have never left MGM.

replies 294Dec 28, 2017 12:59 PM +00:00
She seems so different in films, so very anxious and PEPPY

Hmmmm.... I wonder why .....

replies 295Dec 28, 2017 1:24 PM +00:00
Judy had her problems for sure, but had Freed been a sensitive caring individual, I have no doubt Judy would have never left MGM.

You can't help a damaged person who refuses to help herself.

replies 296Dec 28, 2017 1:26 PM +00:00

There is nothing nonsensical about my post, except to sad old men who worship outdated emotional excess in a performer they identified with in their long ago youth. Happy Holidays.

--R292, I gave Garland her due. Not more.
replies 297Dec 28, 2017 1:42 PM +00:00

Freed was wrong: it wasn't a "hysterical" talent, it was a daemonic talent. Big difference.

replies 298Dec 28, 2017 1:49 PM +00:00

R298 her talent was chaotic yet overwhelmingly terrific!

replies 299Dec 28, 2017 1:51 PM +00:00

r292 why be a cunto? Are you menstruating? BITCH.

replies 300Dec 28, 2017 2:04 PM +00:00

R294, I think the arranger Conrad Salinger was also very influential. And Kay Thompson worked on other films in addition to Judy's, IIRC. To the twerp who made snarky comments about "old men": go listen to Taylor Swift.

replies 301Dec 28, 2017 2:08 PM +00:00

You have over 60 posts on this thread R300. I never use the word cunt. Gay men of my age try to avoid being THAT gay AND misogynist. What's wrong with putting Garland in some modern perspective? The guy who analyzed her voice was similarly attacked though his posts were correct and largely complementary. I am educating myself about her, but I have my own ears and observations. Nothing I said was disrespectful, though the same can't be said of your many posts R300. I'm a man. I don't menstruate.

replies 302Dec 28, 2017 2:13 PM +00:00

r302 go drink some coffee and discuss Proust in Williamsburg. Fraud.

replies 303Dec 28, 2017 2:24 PM +00:00

I have no idea how all of this Judy being addicted to pills crap started. It's absolutely poppycock. Judy's exuberant energy was solely a by-product of her high-fiber diet.
replies 304Dec 28, 2017 2:30 PM +00:00

Who the fuck talks about Proust? Nobody wastes time on that old gay shit in or out of school. Ancient Judy Garland fanatics do I guess. Why are y'all so effeminate?

--w126 and Amsterdam
replies 305Dec 28, 2017 3:11 PM +00:00

That was a very cold assessment from Freed, considering that the cutthroat atmosphere he cultivated on his movies was precisely what drove Judy to pills in the first place.

replies 306Dec 28, 2017 10:04 PM +00:00
Judy's exuberant energy was solely a by-product of her high-fiber diet.

Tell me 'bout it, luv!

--Woman on Set of "I Could Go on Singing" Who Emptied Her Trailer Wastebasket
replies 307Dec 29, 2017 5:59 AM +00:00

Old Judy was not a nice person and her phrases trailed off musically and otherwise....she had frontal lobe shrinkage. That's why she always wore a hat.
replies 308Dec 29, 2017 1:42 PM +00:00

Barbra would beg to differ on that. She speaks lovingly of Judy and she only knew 'old' Judy, not young Judy.

replies 309Dec 29, 2017 3:02 PM +00:00

What's "speaks lovingly of Judy" got to do with JG's mental illness?

replies 310Dec 29, 2017 4:36 PM +00:00

r3-8 you're a real piece of work. I bet you're a hit at parties. Parties in your mind, because your 800 pound ass can't get out of your mother's basement door.

replies 311Dec 29, 2017 4:55 PM +00:00

you have reading comprehension issues, r310?

replies 312Dec 29, 2017 5:44 PM +00:00

Comprehension issues? Yes Judy had that too. Mercifully they lowered the key here. And the toilet seat.

From The Mike Douglas Show, aired in August of 1968. (Part 4 of 4) In the final part of the interview Judy talks about some of her movies, her children's rea...
replies 313Dec 29, 2017 7:37 PM +00:00

I've blocked a poster or two on this thread and it's funny how many gaps are between replies. R103 then R109 etc. Ha what a nutjob.

replies 314Dec 30, 2017 4:03 PM +00:00

Ariana Grande just posted this New Year's message to her followers.

Judy's message is as timely and relevant now than ever.

“Ariana via her instagram Story (December 31)”
replies 315Dec 31, 2017 11:52 AM +00:00

Ah Ariana is not such a snot after all. I posted this today and I am not even a Garland fan. The deep existential beauty of the song was unusual for her. Sinatra did it best but on New Years Eve, Garland brings the emotion.

replies 316Dec 31, 2017 12:05 PM +00:00


Judy Garland sings Kurt Weill and Maxwell Anderson's "Lost in the Stars" from Episode 24 of The Judy Garland Show.
replies 317Dec 31, 2017 1:02 PM +00:00

I always loved Madeline's version......

Madeline Kahn performing on SNL.
replies 318Dec 31, 2017 1:11 PM +00:00

r318 is a thread killer.

replies 319Jan 1, 2018 1:01 PM +00:00

It's lovely, R318. Never heard it.

R319, you can't kill Garland threads. This is really just a continuation of the first one created - most likely on the day Datalounge opened for business.

As long as there are sensitive people with eyes and ears, there will be Judy Garland fans.

replies 320Jan 2, 2018 9:38 AM +00:00

I'm actually somewhat moved that Ariana Grande would post a Judy Garland video. I'm so glad that young singers are into Garland. Gives me hope.

replies 321Jan 2, 2018 10:39 AM +00:00

Yes totally! It's a beautiful thing.

replies 322Jan 2, 2018 12:24 PM +00:00

Judy...the best there ever was.

replies 323Jan 4, 2018 5:17 PM +00:00

It's fascinating to think of how Judy would have been in The Three Faces of Eve. They wanted her for it, didn't they?

replies 324Jan 8, 2018 10:43 AM +00:00
Barbra would beg to differ on that. She speaks lovingly of Judy and she only knew 'old' Judy, not young Judy.

What do you expect Barbra to say in public?

Elliot Gould says that when Barbra appeared on Judy Garland's show, she was not nervous at all. She thought that Judy was a has-been and she was the bigger star, better singer.

replies 325Jan 8, 2018 10:52 AM +00:00

Link, or you're full of shit.

replies 326Jan 8, 2018 11:38 AM +00:00

Barbra wasn't nervous; she's said as much. She says that back then she was young and was trying to show what she could do. Her stage fright would begin later. She was surprised that Judy was so nervous and held on to her "with cold, cold hands". She says she was too young and inexperienced to understand why that would be. But just watch this clip. Watch Barbra's reaction to and interaction with Judy. It's full of joy and respect and admiration. Take special note of Barbra being blown away by Judy's singing at 4:50 through 5:02. Then see if you still have the impression that Barbra thought of Judy as a has-been. The admiration went both ways. They elevated each other and they both understood that. The whole connection between them and entirety of their performance that evening is close to miraculous, in my opinion.

From 'The Judy Garland Show',here is the complete musical sequence. Judy begins with a 'Howdy Neighbor' skit - including Jerry Van Dyke - that leads to Barba...
--Gay Woman
replies 327Jan 8, 2018 11:55 AM +00:00

R327 They are professional performers ON CAMERA. They are performing.

It's silly to infer any genuine feelings from what you see.

--Babe Paley
replies 328Jan 8, 2018 12:02 PM +00:00

R328, no, instead of trusting your own eyes watching the actual performance ON CAMERA (and Barbra turned out to be a pretty good actress, but even I don't believe she's good enough to fake that reaction that spontaneously or convincingly) or believing what Barbra herself has said ON CAMERA and over and over in interviews, by all means infer Barbra's genuine feelings from what her ex-husband may or may not have actually said about what he felt she herself may or may not have actually said or maybe he only felt she felt and didn't actually say in so many words. Yup, it makes so much more sense to go with that. Real clear-cut evidence. Good thinking.

--Gay Woman again
replies 329Jan 8, 2018 12:21 PM +00:00

Barbra: "I touched her hand and it was ice cold. I thought all the pills would make you hot, but I guess not."

replies 330Jan 8, 2018 12:25 PM +00:00

Don't try to reason with someone who is obviously unable to believe anything good or positive about anyone.

replies 331Jan 8, 2018 1:53 PM +00:00

Thank you for that, r327. There is no question Barbra was blown away by Judy. Barbra had appeared with a lot of stars during her early TV "Guest Star" appearances, and Judy was the only star she was in awe of. And the two ladies sparked off each other. "Mmm, Pretty, Pretty!" says Barbra as Judy begins "After You're Gone" and she laughs and says something to Judy when Judy slips in "Gershwin OR ARLEN tune" (Arlen was a close friend to both) Their voices blended uncannily and gloriously.

Right after the show was taped Marty Erlichman told Barbra. "That's it. No more guest star spots for you. No reason for you to perform with others. You've sung with the best there is." (Streisand was supposed to appear with Bing Crosby and Danny Kaye on their shows and Erlichman cancelled her appearances)

I would have loved to hear Barbra and Judy sing "Happy Harvest"!

replies 332Jan 8, 2018 3:25 PM +00:00

"She was surprised that Judy was so nervous and held on to her "with cold, cold hands".

Youngster Barbra didn't know that Judy was in a dry drunk.

R332, it's amazing how green Streisand was on the Garland show compared to how she was a year later (when it was taped) as the haughty new star of her own TV special.

replies 333Jan 8, 2018 6:31 PM +00:00

Judy was amazing with Babs.

replies 334Jan 8, 2018 6:40 PM +00:00

haughty? she was starring in her own broadway show at the age of 21 and taping a television special on her days off.

replies 335Jan 8, 2018 11:55 PM +00:00

DUH, R335. One of the criticisms of Streisand in 1965 was that she "had too much confidence" for a 23 year old. It was needed and it worked because she was a star. However, on the JG show, Streisand was a green kid on camera.

replies 336Jan 9, 2018 8:34 AM +00:00

I think it was the slimeball Mel Torme who said that BS AT FIRST did come across as seeming as though appearing with Garland was no big deal for her.

Garland was a real fan and she and Liza played her early albums constantly. (You can hear that in some of Liza's records and TV appearances from that period.)

Judy herself was the one who was nervous about having Streisand as a guest and watched her rehearsals like a hawk and the night of the taping was the first and loudest to whoop and holler and whistle and stamp her feet at Barbra's performance. (All in the Torme book.)

Judy pulled out all the stops when they performed together - she was an extremely competitive performer- and was relieved when it went over so well and proud she had held her own with the hot new powerhouse.

And then I guess she went out and had a cheeseburger and got loaded, but that's our Judes.

replies 337Jan 9, 2018 9:33 AM +00:00
And then I guess she went out and had a cheeseburger and got loaded, but that's our Judes.

Oh, with all those uppers, I couldn't eat a bite. I just COULDN'T!

replies 338Jan 9, 2018 9:37 AM +00:00

"She was just a green kid on camera"


replies 339Jan 9, 2018 10:58 AM +00:00

She sure is great in The Portland Fancy number in Summer Stock.

replies 340Jan 9, 2018 5:30 PM +00:00

If Torme was such a slimeball, R337, why do you quote his book? Or do you "like" the parts that you like?

replies 341Jan 9, 2018 5:30 PM +00:00

Do you have to like somebody to quote his book?

Huh. Thanx for the info!

replies 342Jan 12, 2018 3:14 PM +00:00


replies 343Jan 21, 2018 1:26 PM +00:00

Sorry Judy, nobody wants to talk about you anymore. Maybe there's nothing left to say.

replies 344Jan 28, 2018 4:45 PM +00:00