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Almost Like Being in Love: Judy at Carnegie Hall. Does anyone come close to this brilliant performance?

Considered to be the benchmark of live performance. Through the years, my favorite songs have included Rock-a-Bye and Come and Rain or Shine. Lately, I've been astounded by Almost Like Being in Love. The last 30 seconds of this song just freaks me out.

Since Carnegie is only audio, I'm attaching a version from her TV show just for the visual.

Here are a few comments from her peers. There are many more.

I don't remember what she sang. I just remember our jaws dropped. - Mike Nichols

Hedda Hopper was standing on her chair, crying, reaching out just to touch Judy Garland. Now I've never seen anything like that in my life. - Rex Reed

She had a force field around her that could reach the back of the house. She tore that audience up; I mean she ripped them to shreds. - Ann Miller

Judy Garland was soul personified -- she was in a class by herself. - Aretha Franklin

All she needed was a spotlight and a microphone...and that was optional. Just give her a stage and get out of the way. - Harold Arlen

There will never be another diva like Judy Garland. Ever. Judy Garland was the greatest singer of the century. - Tony Bennett

The world's greatest entertainer. - Fred Astaire

She didnt have to rehearse. She only had to watch a complicated dance number once and she could memorize it. - Gene Kelly

We'll all be forgotten. Never Judy. - Frank Sinatra

This is bittersweet, but late in her career one critic said:

Even half dead, she was better than everybody else.

The Judy Garland TV Show 1963
replies 600Aug 22, 2017 3:26 PM +00:00

I think that double album is the greatest live concert in recorded history. I got it as a kid, about twelve years old I think, I would sit mesmerized listening to it. I'd give anything to have been there. She must have been an astoundingly great live performer. Her tv show gives us some clues but I can't imagine how great it would have been to sit in the dark and watch her, alone on the stage with just an orchestra and a spotlight, belting her heart out. She gave it all when she sang.

replies 1Aug 22, 2017 3:32 PM +00:00

GOD help me.

replies 2Aug 22, 2017 3:36 PM +00:00

My parents went to that show at the Hollywood Bowl in 1961. When I was old enough to realize what it really meant, I told him(in jest) I hate you! Evidently it rained the whole concert, and im sure the tickets were $4!

replies 3Aug 22, 2017 3:40 PM +00:00

Is she still in that shit business?

--Deanna Durbin, tending my French rose garden
replies 4Aug 22, 2017 3:42 PM +00:00

No doubt about it. If I could go back in time, it would be April 23, 1961. Transcendent.

I've given a copy of this CD to everyone I know. It can change your life.

replies 5Aug 22, 2017 3:44 PM +00:00

I remember a friends of mine kind of good-naturedly ribbing me about liking Judy Garland, back when I was in college. One night, I made him sit down and listen to this. He sat, slack-jawed, and looked at me and said 'Man, she could REALLY SING!" Yeah, she could really sing.

replies 6Aug 22, 2017 3:46 PM +00:00
I think that double album is the greatest live concert in recorded history. I got it as a kid, about twelve years old

Me too.

replies 7Aug 22, 2017 3:47 PM +00:00

Was it I Could Go On Singing where she played a famous singer with issues who was in love with Dirk Bogarde? Those scenes of her singing to a crowd came pretty close to what Judy was like on stage according to TCM's mini film bio. She really was one of a kind.

replies 8Aug 22, 2017 3:49 PM +00:00

Was it union rules that prevented her from singing them all and them staying all night?

replies 9Aug 22, 2017 3:52 PM +00:00

The Carnegie Hall album is pure gold all the way through. She pours so much emotion into every single number. WHEN YOU'RE SMILING, those incomparable renditions of CHICAGO and SAN FRANCISCO (!!), the gorgeous DO IT AGAIN and I CAN'T GIVE YOU ANYTHING BUT LOVE, all perfection. Her talent was on full throttle at that concert, and THANK GOD it was captured for posterity.


--alone in her greatness
replies 10Aug 22, 2017 3:52 PM +00:00

Quote: I don't know why ANYONE would have booked her at Carnegie but not me, ASSHOLES!!! Yes, YOU, DL!!!!!

--Helen Law... Lisa Minnelli
replies 11Aug 22, 2017 3:54 PM +00:00

Love R10! Truly alone in her greatness!

replies 12Aug 22, 2017 3:56 PM +00:00

Or just alone r12......
replies 13Aug 22, 2017 4:00 PM +00:00

Did they save the toilet?

replies 14Aug 22, 2017 4:03 PM +00:00

Eldergay thread alert.

replies 15Aug 22, 2017 4:04 PM +00:00

Liza was interviewed on the Joy Behar show a couple of years ago.

Joy: Why do you think you and your Mother have such a large gay following?

Liza: Because they have good taste and know true talent when they see it.

Best reply ever.

--A gay woman who knows true talent
replies 16Aug 22, 2017 4:05 PM +00:00

Most talented performer of all time...

replies 17Aug 22, 2017 4:07 PM +00:00

We have reached a point in time where us eldergays are too young to have ever seen Judy live.

We know her as well as you do.

replies 18Aug 22, 2017 4:08 PM +00:00

Her version of SAN FRANCISCO is spectacular: the cute little Jeannette MacDonald intro, the uptempo version of the song, and then just plowing into that swingy version ("Perpendicular - hangin' on a cable car!") and then of course the big ending. The audience goes NUTS.

All those numbers, and she still has the energy to trot out the big guns - THE MAN THAT GOT AWAY and OVER THE RAINBOW. Nothing even comes CLOSE - no wonder jaws were dropping!

replies 19Aug 22, 2017 4:10 PM +00:00

You just might learn something, dear R15.

Or you could always go back to watching Nick at Night.

replies 20Aug 22, 2017 4:11 PM +00:00

Is Datalounge the only place left on this planet where people still talk about Judy Garland?

--Babe Paley
replies 21Aug 22, 2017 4:19 PM +00:00
All those numbers, and she still has the energy

Gee, wonder where she got THAT from..

replies 22Aug 22, 2017 4:21 PM +00:00

Attention must be paid!

--Linda L
replies 23Aug 22, 2017 4:22 PM +00:00

I think my favorite is "When You're Smiling." It's packed with so much pathos. She sings as if she's desperately trying to convince herself of the song's assertion.

No matter how bad a mood I'm in, this album will lift me out of it every single time.

replies 24Aug 22, 2017 4:28 PM +00:00

I saw her at the Boston Garden on October 27, 1961. Basically the same show as at Carnegie Hall but there were some program changes. People were literally (in the real sense) throwing their hats and programs in the air. It was pandemonium. And yet at other times ("Do It Again," for one), there was such a hushed stillness as if people. couldn't. breathe.

replies 25Aug 22, 2017 4:29 PM +00:00

I can't NOW, r25!

--Kelly O.
replies 26Aug 22, 2017 4:33 PM +00:00

I flew to NYC last summer to see Rufus Wainwright perform Judy at Carnegie Hall. Judy at CH is by far my favorite album, so I had to go even though my expectations weren't very high. The orchestra was great -- just hearing the Overture was worth it. Rufus W gave it his all, and it was a very enjoyable, nostalgic evening.

And randomly, Ann Wilson of Heart came out to sing the last two songs with RW. I love Ann Wilson. A really surprising thrill.

--Judy's talent was beyond
replies 27Aug 22, 2017 4:33 PM +00:00

Now hearing Ann Wilson sing the Judy Garland songbook would be interesting!

replies 28Aug 22, 2017 4:38 PM +00:00

I'd like to hear Justin Bieber sing the Judy Garland songbook.

replies 29Aug 22, 2017 4:42 PM +00:00

Did see Rufus do the Judy Carnegie Show at the Hollywood Bowl back in 2007. It was great fun. It was also the gayest event ever at The Bowl, and that's a compliment. Practically everybody was there. Next best thing!

replies 30Aug 22, 2017 4:48 PM +00:00

Yes, the Rufus Carnegie Hall performance NY 2016 had lots of us good gay folk AND also a mix -- I sat next to a straight woman who flew in from Ohio just to see the show like I did. We laughed and cried together throughout.

Glad you liked it. I did, too. Rufus has a great respect for Judy.

replies 31Aug 22, 2017 4:57 PM +00:00

Just loved it OP, thank you for starting this thread. It was a great mix of people.

replies 32Aug 22, 2017 5:01 PM +00:00

R24 and OP have some visceral reaction to the sound and swell of that album. Those two songs are far from her best vocals in that concert. I was born 20 years later and because I am in the arts and GAY I was exposed to this album. Way more than once. The whole thing.. Yes, she sure can sing and that orchestra was on fire and a bit too loud.

Garland was not known for perfection, but she was many times vocally thrilling and most important she was a great singer. I Can't Give You Anything But Love is perfection on that album. She was a fantastic singer on the downbeat. She had such lung power and resonance that her more reserved interpretations are often overlooked. She had a wonderful sense of time and phrasing. When she wasn't belting to the heavens her wayward vibrato was under better control. Garland had incredible power and control throughout the full range of her voice, but unlike Whitney, Garland seldom used her head voice. Her sound could become very heavy. Too rich but she had some swinging orchestrations to break that up and when she sang in half voice tenderness she proved herself just as musical and agile. She should have done more of that before she had to.

Great lung power and full dynamic abilities throughout her range made for the most amazing crescendos, demonstrated in Stormy Weather and Alone Together at Carnegie Hall. For a nostalgic song she sang the hell out of That's Entertainment and the Olio. Come Rain or Shine was a bit of a mess but the most ambitious mess you'll ever hear. She must have been hell a confident at that time because she sings it like she is gonna demolish the song and her voice has balls. If that song were better recorded people would be in awe of her abilities. She was very shaky on When You're Smiling and found her footing halfway through Almost Like Being in Love. The rest of the concert is great. It rises and pulls back from greatness over and over again. She never fails but she was worn out on Chicago. One song too many. The whole thing is kinda corny now. You wouldn't want your neighbours to hear. Historically it's a great recording of an amazing concert.

--Rufus is everything garland was not - pretentious and unmusical
replies 33Aug 22, 2017 5:01 PM +00:00

Young gays are not into Garland. She's losing relevancy as a gay icon, fast.

replies 34Aug 22, 2017 5:19 PM +00:00

r34 I hope not, for their sake.

replies 35Aug 22, 2017 5:28 PM +00:00

r35, the gays of today idolise Britney and Gaga. They perceive Judy as dated.

replies 36Aug 22, 2017 5:32 PM +00:00

R36, the difference is Britney and Gaga are talentless hacks.

replies 37Aug 22, 2017 5:46 PM +00:00

I never liked Judy as a young gayling because she seemed like the kind of thing seniors liked. Then, on a cross country plane when I had forgotten to bring my ipod, JG at Carnegie Hall was included as part of the plane's in-flight entertainment system, so I selected it to help me fall asleep. Well, by the time we landed, I was so knocked on my ass by her phenomenal talent that by the end of the week I had purchased Carnegie Hall, Alone Together, Star is Born soundtrack, Miss Show Business, Judy, Judy in Love, and I Could Go On Singing, along with a bunch of bootleg recordings. R5 is right.....this album is life-changing.

replies 38Aug 22, 2017 5:47 PM +00:00

"The Judy Garland Christmas Special" with her, children, Mel Torme and Jack Jones. Judy gives her blessing to Liza's first gay boyfriend. Jack Jones is too handsome for words and Mel Torme has to stand next to him and put up with it. Mel Torme wrote a book about "The Judy Garland Show" (he was the musical director) and what a trainwreck it was. The show will give you an idea what a live performance would be like.

In this charming live holiday TV special Judy is joined by her children, Liza Minnelli and Lorna and Joey Luft, and guest stars Jack Jones and Mel Torme. The...
replies 39Aug 22, 2017 5:49 PM +00:00

I've seen every Gaga tour, and Britney has some catchy tunes. Judy Garland has more talent in her little finger than both combined.

Little gays, feel free to idolize such gaga britney talent. We eldergays, so to speak, know both old and new music. It's true -- we've simply known and experienced more art than you have. We can compare with more breadth. No offense -- all is subjective, certainly. But really, do yourself a favor, put on headphones, and listen to Judy CH. Dated it is not. It is genius.

replies 40Aug 22, 2017 6:06 PM +00:00

I cannot think of anyone today who can sing anything like this, like Judy does. Just hits it out of the park 100%

replies 41Aug 22, 2017 6:09 PM +00:00

Where did you last see Gaga R40? Why even mention Britney, no one of any age would argue that she is a singer.

replies 42Aug 22, 2017 6:09 PM +00:00

Why do people always pull out that HORRENDOUS Xmas special?

The absolute low point of the series, and one of the low points of her career, imho. Judy is at her maudlin worst, the men are boring, even Liza gets on my nerves. Poor Joey looks and acts like a stuffed toy.

There are much better episodes out there, notably the two or three purely concert programs she did toward the end. The special she did with Dean and Frank is also pretty special, if you need guests, especially her mesmerizing "I Can't Give You (Anything but Love)."

replies 43Aug 22, 2017 6:10 PM +00:00

Not only was Judy a great singer, she was very animated in her bodily movements and her facial expressions. Perfection - she gave it her all. A born performer.

We were lucky to have her for 47 years.

replies 44Aug 22, 2017 6:11 PM +00:00

Show 25 of The Judy Garland Show is my favorite. She is OFF THE CHAIN. And she knew full well her show was done. A true pro.

replies 45Aug 22, 2017 6:12 PM +00:00

Someone above said Come Rain or Shine was a beautiful mess. It is. Exquisite.

This song had one of the most complicated arrangements ever; only Judy could really sing it. Rarely would anyone even attempt it.

A friend of mine knew her conductor, Mort Lindsey, very well. He also conducted and arranged for Barbra, Celine Dion, etc.

About Judy, he continually said, "No one comes close."

replies 46Aug 22, 2017 6:26 PM +00:00

Interesting that younger generations have not become aware as does take time.

Considering the childhood right of passage that is The Wizard of Oz.

I think I would prefer to see the uncut restored "A Star is Born" than "Magnificent Ambersons"

replies 47Aug 22, 2017 6:43 PM +00:00

Wizard of Oz is no longer a rite of passage.

People don't watch movies in the way they used to.

I like Judy Garland, but find her singing very affected.

replies 48Aug 22, 2017 6:51 PM +00:00

Holy shit, I've never seen that Come Rain or Come Shine before. Of course I've heard it on the album. That was fucking amazing. I don't know what I'd do if I saw that live. It's brilliant.

replies 49Aug 22, 2017 6:59 PM +00:00

If you can get beyond the blackface Franklin D Roosevelt Jones from Babes on Broadway is the most astounding musical performance by a teenager ever. Each movement and inflection are so beyond what even the best talents with decades of experience can do it's kind of frightening. It's amazing she lived as long as she did. She should have been burned out by 22.

replies 50Aug 22, 2017 7:04 PM +00:00

These two bitches.

I can never get enough of this duet so decided to share a higher quality than others online.... 'My most memorable moment from the 'Judy Garland Show' series...
replies 51Aug 22, 2017 7:09 PM +00:00

I thought Mort Lindsey's obit in in the NYT was lovely. For him, above all other artists, Judy was it.

Working with luminaries like Merv Griffin on television, Barbra Streisand in Central Park and Judy Garland at Carnegie Hall, Mr. Lindsey had a musical career spanning six decades.
replies 52Aug 22, 2017 7:30 PM +00:00

I wish I could enjoy Judy's talent, she just depresses me.

replies 53Aug 22, 2017 7:32 PM +00:00

R53 listen to Judy at Carnegie Hall, Capitol Records, April 1961. That's all you need. It's the opposite of depressing.

replies 54Aug 22, 2017 7:48 PM +00:00

The Rain or Shine is brilliant. It's a freaking daring orchestration... she has no medley line to sing with and it's all percussion, hummingbird fast drums for the longest time. And you can tell she loves it and builds the song as she sings the multiple key changes and complex rhythms and builds the vocal dynamics and she nails it all. That ain't easy. BUT it's one time when the orchestra being in another studio hinders her. She can't quite fly as high as she wants because the conductor cannot respond to her completely. Her voice is almost top notch there, I have never seen that clip before either. It's a very wild arrangement and a real breakdown of that song. Same as now, people either love it or hate it when songs are so dramatically altered. Folk didn't analyze voices back then the way we do now, but they knew she was great excitement and her voice hit the pit of your stomach and her singing made people lean forward and sit high on the edge of seats.

I stand by what I said earlier, her Carnegie Hall performance of Come Rain or Shine is rhythmic, operatic and something wildly unexpected. Her power, confidence and abandon on that recording showed a side to her singing that was never seen on television.

--that streisand duet is not a good day vocally for garland
replies 55Aug 22, 2017 7:52 PM +00:00

OP — Yes, re the last 30 seconds

That's when she ratchets herself up into the concert and takes off like a rocket.

--Edmond Halley
replies 56Aug 22, 2017 7:56 PM +00:00

Yes, Mr. Hailey, and the last 30 secs of those drums building up to a fever pitch combined with her last key change makes me levitate.

--Music makes the people come together
replies 57Aug 22, 2017 8:04 PM +00:00

Sorry to say it, but I have never been big fan of Judy. Even though I will admit she was a great performer, she could never affect me in the way Billie Holiday, Edith Piaf or even some of Streisand can. And whole Oz thing is such a bore. I must admit however, to absolutely loving her sense of humor, more so than her singing.

replies 58Aug 22, 2017 8:14 PM +00:00

My apology for the grammar above ... but English is not my native tongue and I'm on my 3rd Cosmo at 1:20 am.

--Judy is just not my cup of tea
replies 59Aug 22, 2017 8:21 PM +00:00

And not to forget "Just In Time"

The Judy Garland TV Show 1963
replies 60Aug 22, 2017 8:29 PM +00:00

The Oz thing is a bore to you? Do you mind telling us how old you are?

replies 61Aug 22, 2017 8:31 PM +00:00

I don't think you have to like everyone R59. When Garland was not belting she proved herself just as good and a much more nuanced singer. Listen to this. I don't like Streisand at all, but I won't argue that she can't sing:)

Performed by Judy Garland Music from the novel The Kestrel Waters by Randy Thornhorn
replies 62Aug 22, 2017 8:33 PM +00:00

Thanks, that song R62

replies 63Aug 22, 2017 8:37 PM +00:00
Is Datalounge the only place left on this planet where people still talk about Judy Garland?

Assisted living homes in Fort Lauderdale too, I suppose.

replies 64Aug 22, 2017 8:40 PM +00:00
[R35], the gays of today idolise Britney and Gaga.

"Britney and Gaga"???

Gramps, it's not 2007 anymore.

Try to catch up the teeniest bit.

--"Those whippersnappers! Mooning over Lesley Gore and Annette Funicello!"
replies 65Aug 22, 2017 8:45 PM +00:00

From the Judy, Frank, and Dean TV special in 1960.

This version of Rock a Bye is filmed in an odd technicolor, but wow who cares -- ino one does this like JG. Few others would even attempt this song except Judy. She was incomparable.

a second fiddle..

Judy Garland sings Rockaye on her 1962 special. Exceptional sound quality!
replies 66Aug 22, 2017 8:57 PM +00:00

I'm an elder who was born almost exactly one year after Judy died. And I'm now the age she was when she died.

All the gays who were kids in the '60s and '70 remember how special that yearly showing of The Wizard of Oz on CBS was. I think we were all taken with Judy, there was a vulnerability and strength there. And the way she sang. When I turned 14, I asked for Carnegie Hall on LP for Christmas. I'm sure my dad must've been thrilled.

As the years went on, I still liked her but started to think that Barbra was better. Then, one day in 2011, I got dumped. I was messing around on YouTube and came across her doing The Man That Got Away on her TV show. By the end, I had tears streaming down my face. Judy was reaching across the decades to comfort me. I soon realized that while Streisand may have been technically better, Judy sang the songs better. She had more expression, more passion- she was just a fucking powerhouse. For me, no one comes close.

Isn't it funny how so many of us of a certain age all have pretty much the exact same feeling about her? Such an interesting phenom. I'd love to have a definitive answer as to why.

replies 67Aug 22, 2017 9:26 PM +00:00

Any truth to the reports that the white supremacists in Charlottesville were goose-stepping to her version of "Swanee?"

replies 68Aug 23, 2017 5:49 AM +00:00

OP = Mary X 1000!!!

replies 69Aug 23, 2017 6:08 AM +00:00

This is probably my favorite clip. Watch her raw emotion at the end. She was amazing.

replies 70Aug 23, 2017 6:30 AM +00:00

She's not hip to the youth of today, i think because she was never sexy. She's like somebody's aunt. The gay youth seem to want icons who first and foremost have a ferocious sense of sexuality (correlating to the promiscuous of the gay community). That comes before talent.

replies 71Aug 23, 2017 6:36 AM +00:00

r27 Rufus Wainwright? God, even Even Helen Keller would have put her hands over her ears.

replies 72Aug 23, 2017 6:44 AM +00:00

Since we were 10 years old we have been able to sing by heart every word/note of the Carnegie Hall album plus the Judy at the Palace medley plus the Born in a Trunk medley!

--Erna (world's number one Judy fan)
replies 73Aug 23, 2017 7:01 AM +00:00

I like Foggy Day. Do you like Foggy Day? I like Foggy Day!

I was a stranger in the city…

replies 74Aug 23, 2017 8:22 AM +00:00

"Alone Together" is not in the same league as the other songs.

replies 75Aug 23, 2017 8:26 AM +00:00

As a small child we met Judy twice, for only a minute each time, and we shall cherish that memory forever.

replies 76Aug 23, 2017 10:34 AM +00:00

Even more than her voice, I'm always mesmerized by Garland's interpretation of the lyrics she's singing, her expressions, the flashes of thought that we see in her eyes, the elegant, absolutely stylish gestures she uses.

Note how she perfectly times her movements to the story she's telling....yet it all seems spontaneous.

No one, but no one, could do that like Garland.

replies 77Aug 23, 2017 11:20 AM +00:00

r76 Erna, God how I hate your fucking guts. Disgusting.

replies 78Aug 23, 2017 12:04 PM +00:00

I like You're Nearer and If Love Were All. Probably because I didn't know these songs until I heard the album.

replies 79Aug 23, 2017 2:11 PM +00:00

But you can get why the mass TV audiences would not make her TV show a success.

You can't have that kind of intensity every week which is why she was such a great movie star. And if she hadn't become such a wreck and died so soon she could have been making great movie musicals into the 70s.

I believe it was Cukor's friend Ina Claire who came to see filming of a musical number during Star is Born who said to him something to the effect of 'That girl is going to burn herself out!'

replies 80Aug 23, 2017 2:21 PM +00:00

As the poster noted above, the annual showing of The Wizard of Oz was something rare and special that I and all my friends looked forward to. It affected me like nothing else. I started watching it very young, I think I was around 4 or 5, and by the next year I already had determined I was going to lie to get out of going to church that night (it was shown on a Sunday night) so that I could see the beginning of the movie. So I pretended to be asleep and was left at home (yes, at age 6, by myself....parents did that then) and once I knew my parents were gone, I got up and turned on the television. Black and white, so I didn't know for years that the witch was green. But it was magical. Beyond words. And I loved Judy, instinctively and fiercely, even as a child.

replies 81Aug 23, 2017 2:39 PM +00:00

"You Go to My Head" flubbed lyrics and all is intensely good on the Carnegie Hall album. I too received it as a gift for my 12th birthday. I don't think I've played any record as often in my life. I guess everybody has something they just love.

replies 82Aug 23, 2017 9:12 PM +00:00

She was unstoppable. Unbeatable. Totally a one-off. Never see her quality and intensity again. Ever.

replies 83Aug 24, 2017 4:08 PM +00:00

And so chic. So chic. You can't stand it.

replies 84Aug 24, 2017 4:28 PM +00:00

r84 you must look nothing, NOTHING, like Judy Garland, nothing like yourself.

replies 85Aug 24, 2017 4:31 PM +00:00

I've always liked Liza better. So sue me.

replies 86Aug 24, 2017 4:54 PM +00:00

Judy didn't become Judy until she had her stage act. I don't see anything pertaining to Wizard of Oz as having anything to do with Judy. I just see a frightened little girl. The great power inside wasn't evident until she reached adulthood.

replies 87Aug 24, 2017 5:05 PM +00:00

It takes a tough performer to carry almost every scene in a movie like that, R87, and in the company of those seasoned performers.

You're reacting to her character, not the young actress, who by all accounts wasn't scared of much.

replies 88Aug 24, 2017 5:46 PM +00:00

There are TWENTY SIX songs in the Carnegie Hall concert, four of them are multi song medleys. She takes a break at #12 and then comes back and does FOURTEEN more. When you consider that it was just her and a mike, alone on that stage, it is really incredible.

And when she says she'd "stay all night an d sing'em all!" I really believe she could do just that. The greatest female entertainer of all time.

replies 89Aug 24, 2017 6:30 PM +00:00

r85 I look a LITTLE like Judy Garland.

It's a weird story that has a beginning and a middle but seems to have no proper ending.

replies 90Aug 24, 2017 9:46 PM +00:00

Shirley is quite good.

Shirley Bassey - Almost Like Being In Love
replies 91Aug 24, 2017 10:59 PM +00:00

As a young and disturbed teen we actually believed that we WERE Judy Garland!

replies 92Aug 24, 2017 11:08 PM +00:00

I am 74 now and 18 when I saw Judy perform in 1961 -- so in 10/15 years there will not be many left who saw her in 1961.

replies 93Aug 24, 2017 11:12 PM +00:00
And so chic. So chic. You can't stand it.

Paris chic.

replies 94Aug 25, 2017 3:25 AM +00:00

Judy Garland was a genius. Yes, a troubled genius. But the power of her performances, across the various stages of her career, is stunning. She's not to everybody's taste, which could be said of many great artists and performers. The fact that people are still watching and listening to her nearly fifty years after her death tells you something. I continue to be astonished by her abilities as a young performer with a crystal clear voice. as an ingenue in the movies with charm and an emotionally evocative voice, and as an adult performer with an incredible voice who knows how to engage her audience across the range of emotions.

replies 95Aug 25, 2017 3:30 AM +00:00

And I agree about "Almost Like Being in Love."

replies 96Aug 25, 2017 3:31 AM +00:00

She's no Nora Bayes or Al Jolson.

--Ancient beyond eldergay.
replies 97Aug 25, 2017 3:32 AM +00:00

The flubbed lyrics was a bit.

replies 98Aug 25, 2017 3:41 AM +00:00

Spitcurls, we used to call them in my day...anyway

replies 99Aug 25, 2017 8:19 AM +00:00

"The rest of us will be forgotten. Never Judy. - Frank Sinatra

(I think Frank may be right.)
replies 100Aug 25, 2017 8:24 AM +00:00

"The rest of us will be forgotten. Never Judy." - Frank Sinatra

(I think Frank may be right.)
replies 101Aug 25, 2017 8:27 AM +00:00

I don't want to see all of her movies yet - I want to savor them throughout my life as new discoveries. Right now I'm obsessed with the grace and delicacy she brings to this clip from PRESENTING LILY MARS.

replies 102Aug 25, 2017 9:11 AM +00:00
She was unstoppable.

Ur, no.

replies 103Aug 25, 2017 9:24 AM +00:00
The fact that people are still watching and listening to her nearly fifty years after her death tells you something.

And that something is that the SAME people are still listening to her. With few exceptions, younger people do no put on Judy Garland songs.

replies 104Aug 25, 2017 9:26 AM +00:00

r104 that's just not true

replies 105Aug 25, 2017 9:37 AM +00:00

R105 I know it's hard for every generation to face the fact that the music/singers they love will not be appreciated by younger generations, but 99.99% of Millennials (even the several generations before them) couldn't give a shit about Judy Garland.

replies 106Aug 25, 2017 9:40 AM +00:00

r106 - all people don't give a fuck about Millennials.

replies 107Aug 25, 2017 9:42 AM +00:00

R107 That is quite irrelevant.

The point isn't whether you care about Millennials; it is that they don't care about Judy Garland.

Yes, you can find exceptions, but your world full of people who swoon over Garland has already passed.

replies 108Aug 25, 2017 9:58 AM +00:00

R018, then go swoon over Taylor Swift and Beyonce. They're more your speed.

replies 109Aug 25, 2017 10:16 AM +00:00

And let us not forget that this woman's extraordinary power was generated from a body height of


Absolutely amazing.

"There will never be another singer who will surpass Judy Garland -- ever." - Tony Bennett

--Damn right
replies 110Aug 25, 2017 10:34 AM +00:00

Here is the audio of Dorothy singing Over the Rainbow while captured in the witch's castle.

It was deleted from the film because it was too sad, too affecting.


Judy Garland sang this reprise live on set, before director Richard Thorpe was replaced by Victor Fleming and the song was cut. Margaret Hamilton is the witc...
replies 111Aug 25, 2017 10:46 AM +00:00

I bet a lot more people are listening to Sinatra today than Garland and I love the woman. But I bet Sinatra's sales are still amazing in a way that Garland's are not.

I think there's an intensity to Garland's singing that unnerves most people today.

replies 112Aug 25, 2017 11:36 AM +00:00

"an intensity to Garland's singing that unnerves most people today."

Poor delicate things.

If you go on to YouTube to watch her, there are always 12, 13, 14-year-old kids who love her and want to be a singer because of her.

replies 113Aug 25, 2017 11:41 AM +00:00
I bet a lot more people are listening to Sinatra today than Garland and I love the woman. But I bet Sinatra's sales are still amazing in a way that Garland's are not.

I'm sure you're right about that.

But Garland was the star of "The Wizard of Oz".

She's the singer who sang "Somewhere Over the Rainbow".

For that she will be immortal in a way Sinatra will not.

replies 114Aug 25, 2017 12:46 PM +00:00

99% of millennials are not interested in Bach or Mozart or Verdi or Pavarotti. But that doesn't make them any less outstanding. Are there any singers that millennials listen to who will be remembered in 50 years? Hard to tell at this point, but I'm skeptical.

replies 115Aug 25, 2017 12:58 PM +00:00

Judy is made up and lit so beautifully in that Lily Mars closeup, she really could be competition for Lana Turner.

I think she looks prettier here than in any other of her films, also perhaps because she photographed better in black and white than color.

replies 116Aug 25, 2017 1:06 PM +00:00

"The Man That Got Away," Live - 1964

Not even a lifetime of pills, booze, cigarettes, or drugs could steal her power and strength.

(Don't flame me for saying this, but . . . shadows of Amy Winehouse.)

Another version of a Judy Garland original from 1954 film "A Star Is Born", music written by Harold Arlen (Over the Rainbow, Get Happy, Come Rain or Come Shi...
replies 117Aug 25, 2017 1:10 PM +00:00
a lifetime of pills, booze, cigarettes, or drugs

She started in the crib?

replies 118Aug 25, 2017 1:24 PM +00:00

She's also pretty, adorable and sexy in Girl Crazy but she already hits the wall and hard in St Louis.

Except for the Christmas scenes I don't know why she's so crazy about the way Minnelli filmed her in that.

replies 119Aug 25, 2017 1:29 PM +00:00

Jesus, that Over the Rainbow reprise is indeed heartbreaking. That genuinely made me tear up and without any visuals. Talk about talent.

replies 120Aug 25, 2017 1:30 PM +00:00

Pretty much, R118. Her lovely mother started her on Bennies (diet pills) when she was 10-years old. Her mother decided she was 'too fat' to photograph well.

replies 121Aug 25, 2017 1:33 PM +00:00

R66, that video is colorized.

replies 122Aug 25, 2017 1:42 PM +00:00

The term "stage mother" didn't exist until one Mrs. Ethel Gumm arrived on the scene with Baby Judy. She was the ultimate stage mother. She allegedly gave Judy uppers at a very young age.

Judy had zero parental protection from the MGM empire. She was the biggest MGM money maker for many years, and they exploited her relentlessly. Uppers to keep her filming for days at a time, then they'd knock her out cold for eight hours in the MGM onsite clinic.

--What a world, what a world
replies 123Aug 25, 2017 1:54 PM +00:00

I was born in1961 and naturally grew up with the annual Wizard of Oz showing. I am a musician with an excellent ear. I can sing anything. While I know Judy can sing and give her all in a performance I just can't stand to listen to her for more than a few moments. Its her tone and volume that turns me off. I find Karen Carpenter a more pleasing voice.

replies 124Aug 25, 2017 3:33 PM +00:00

Well I like Karen Carpenter too but...

replies 125Aug 25, 2017 3:36 PM +00:00

In my humble opinion, Judy's performance at Carnegie Hall is a testament to the hard work and dedication of four people. Judy, Sid, Mort and Kay.

Kay Thompson, Judy's best friend & mentor, for teaching Judy how to perform on stage as a mature adult. Watch videos of Kay with the Williams Brothers, and her boytoy Andy, and you will the same arm movements and carriage used later by Judy.

Sid Luft, even though he was a cad, for believing in her enough to get her out there on the road performing. And for calling in all of his markers to get access to the hall.

Mort, who saw inner talent despite the tortured mind of the star, who was a calm, steadying force for years to come.

Judy, with all of her inner demons, for pulling herself together enough to deliver one hell of a performance.

replies 126Aug 25, 2017 4:53 PM +00:00


replies 127Aug 25, 2017 5:40 PM +00:00

I love Judy, I love OZ, but I hate that Over the Rainbow reprise. It's sledgehammer maudlin. MGM was wise to cut it.

The big 'Return to the Emerald City' sequence with the reprise of 'Ding, Dong, the Witch is Dead' was a more serious cut. It's a perfect bookend to the Munchkinland jubilation. The cut from the witches castle to them slowly walking down the wizards corridor with the charred broomstick is very jarring.

replies 128Aug 25, 2017 5:55 PM +00:00

Listen to this quick studio outtake. She laughs and plays along at first, then quite seriously gets the producers in line and says,

"Let's gew."

And nails it.

This was during the recording for 'Swanee' (A Star Is Born) 1954. I think this may already be on youtube, but I thought it was really good so I will upload...
--A Force of Nature
replies 129Aug 25, 2017 6:07 PM +00:00

I agree R126. The brilliant Mort Lindsey, until his dying day, gave it up for Judy Garland. He said she was incomparable.

--Of course she was
replies 130Aug 25, 2017 6:25 PM +00:00
She was the biggest MGM money maker for many years, and they exploited her relentlessly. Uppers to keep her filming for days at a time, then they'd knock her out cold for eight hours in the MGM onsite clinic.

As much as I love Judy, none of that is true of course. You know the Screen Actor's Guild was alive and well in her day. Although she may not have gone to sleep, there exists all manner of MGM documentation reporting to the minute when Garland both arrived on set, and when she left. In her later years Judy made up all sorts of harrowing, fun-to-tell horror stories about her studio years.

--Betsy Booth or Bust!
replies 131Aug 25, 2017 8:25 PM +00:00

Rooney denied this was true but look at the La Conga number from Strike Up the Band on youtube. They act like they're on an amphetamine high.

replies 132Aug 25, 2017 11:19 PM +00:00

"GOOGLE 'EM!!! I want to see your EYES!!"

--Buzz, screaming
replies 133Aug 26, 2017 12:37 AM +00:00

Judy sounds great on the Carnegie Hall album, but she sounds like shit in OP's link. Embarrassing, even. Her voice really was shot by then.

replies 134Aug 26, 2017 2:01 AM +00:00
that video is colorized.

No it's not.

That TV Special was broadcast in color.

replies 135Aug 26, 2017 2:32 AM +00:00


God God, I just listened to that recording...well actually I stopped, not even half way through it.

Fortunately they had the good taste to cut it.

It would have ruined the film.

The Wizard of Oz never stoops to the cheap and maudlin. It never over does it. Even in the closing scene. It does everything with a light touch.

replies 136Aug 26, 2017 2:44 AM +00:00

I love Judy. I'm a huge fan. I love her film performances, live performances, recorded concerts.

But I've never cared for her as a recording artist.

I'd rather listen to so many others from the era. But not Judy. With Garland you need to see and hear her in action.

Her persona just doesn't work in the recording studio.

replies 137Aug 26, 2017 4:16 AM +00:00


It may have been but that doesn't mean that footage is the color print. Some color broadcasts only exist as black and white kinescopes. Some of those have been colorized.

replies 138Aug 26, 2017 4:26 AM +00:00



replies 139Aug 26, 2017 4:26 AM +00:00

I'm a big Judy fan, but I have to admit I find her twitchniness that manifested around the time of St. Louis, tough to watch, though I do love listening to her singing. With that said, in the clip OP showed, I'm pretty distracted by her singing through her bridgework which brings me out of the song. The voice still sounds terrific, but I'm very aware that she's singing with 'choppers'.

Also, thanks to the DL everytime I watch later day Judy perform, all I can think about is whether Lorna was getting molested backstage at that very moment.

replies 140Aug 26, 2017 4:50 AM +00:00
It may have been but that doesn't mean that footage is the color print. Some color broadcasts only exist as black and white kinescopes. Some of those have been colorized.

The entire show is available on YouTube. It is in color. It is not colorized.

By 1962 (when the show aired) the kinescope process had long been shelved. The show was taped in color. This is a bad copy of the tape.

replies 141Aug 26, 2017 5:04 AM +00:00

r141 learn your Judy history. It was taped in b/w, and colorized later.

replies 142Aug 26, 2017 5:12 AM +00:00

r101, Frank is more famous than Judy though. She's not as iconic as gay men think. When most people think of Judy, it's as Dorothy, not as Judy the stage singer of later years.

replies 143Aug 26, 2017 5:42 AM +00:00

What parent gives a 12 year old boy a Judy Garland CD I ask you.

replies 144Aug 26, 2017 6:12 AM +00:00

One with good taste r144.....

--one with good taste
replies 145Aug 26, 2017 6:15 AM +00:00

2017 Mother: "We gave 'her' sexual reassignment surgery."

1964 Mother: "We gave him a Judy Garland LP."

--Babe Paley
replies 146Aug 26, 2017 6:29 AM +00:00

Love you, R145

replies 147Aug 26, 2017 9:13 AM +00:00

As long as those Garland clips from her TV show are around, she will never be forgotten. The connection some of us feel to Judy isn't anything like what a person listening to Frank Sinatra feels. When she sings, its like she's taking her stand against the world, but still, no matter how powerful, she's losing.

It's interesting if you compare Barbara Walters' Garland interview with Diane Sawyer's Whitney Houston interview. Both Garland and Houston (who I'm not a huge fan of, btw) have this defiant, chip-on-their-shoulder attitude. Neither of them really understood how loved they were.

replies 148Aug 26, 2017 9:19 AM +00:00

If Judy had lived she would have been a Regan Democrat. Her daughter Liza is a big Trump supporter.

replies 149Aug 26, 2017 9:22 AM +00:00

Where did you hear that? Seems unlikely to me.

replies 150Aug 26, 2017 9:24 AM +00:00

r149 is a deplorable. Block and continue discussing the magic of Judy Garland.

replies 151Aug 26, 2017 12:44 PM +00:00


replies 152Aug 26, 2017 12:49 PM +00:00

I was molested.

--Lorna Luft
replies 153Aug 26, 2017 12:50 PM +00:00
As a young and disturbed teen we actually believed that we WERE Judy Garland!

The mind simply boggles.

replies 154Aug 26, 2017 12:51 PM +00:00
And yet at other times ("Do It Again," for one), there was such a hushed stillness as if people. couldn't. breathe.

It sounds marvellous. I feel those people were my kindred spirits.

--Kelly Osborne
replies 155Aug 26, 2017 12:53 PM +00:00

The connection older gay men feel to Judy is very different than what the older general public feels to Sinatra. Of course he lived much longer and was performing live almost to the very end. But he has a much wider public today. Also he has many great albums. He was both a great live artist and a great recording artist. There are a number of people on that list and Judy isn't one of them.

Also I'm like R137 I love watching Judy in her films and on youtube but the Carnegie Hall concert is the only recording of hers that I have while I have many of other singers. She really has no other classic albums the way other singers do and I don't know why that is for such a magnificent artist. None of the great recording producers took her on or knew what to do with her. Really unfortunate.

replies 156Aug 26, 2017 1:12 PM +00:00

You go to my headddd.... like an I forgot the gall darn words

Like a honey beesa booda bop BOW

Uh.. you intoxicate my soul with your EYES

--Still magic
replies 157Aug 26, 2017 1:14 PM +00:00

I like the Alone album. I think the suits were obsessed with having Garland re-record her greatest hits - the medleys, the London stereo recordings etc.

replies 158Aug 26, 2017 1:17 PM +00:00

In the "Alone" album, on a lot of the songs she does a plaintive vibrato thing that sounds corny and dated as if she's channeling Al Jolson at times.

It must have sounded awfully dated by 1957.

Judy´s recording from the album alone, 1957. The best interpretation of this Irving Berlin great song !
replies 159Aug 26, 2017 1:26 PM +00:00

Another one from the "Alone" album. The delivery is just not the sound of the day (Rosemary Clooney, Patti Page, Peggy Lee. .. )

It's very different from her 1960s singing style.

Judy Garland ~ ME AND MY SHADOW ~
replies 160Aug 26, 2017 1:39 PM +00:00

Blackfaced bitch!!!

I don’t think this number made it into the Ken Burns hagiography, but it’s from Babes on Broadway (1941) starring Judy Garland/Mickey Rooney and directed by ...
replies 161Aug 26, 2017 1:55 PM +00:00

Lol R161. She wearing a KFC bucket on her head?

replies 162Aug 26, 2017 2:00 PM +00:00

Unfortunately they messed up the syncing on the final note.

replies 163Aug 26, 2017 2:01 PM +00:00

--1937 Judy
replies 164Aug 26, 2017 2:06 PM +00:00

If Judy hadn't fucked up her voice for good in the Orient, I can imagine her having a bossa noca comeback, singing the likes of "How Insensitive".

replies 165Aug 26, 2017 2:09 PM +00:00

I can't watch any of those videos all the way thru.

I am in my mid 50's and watched the Wizard of Oz every year, in the 60's and 70's. In chicago. I always seem to remember it being thunderstorming when it was on. No matter. even as a kid, I knew Judy Garland in that movie was miraculous. Her vice so clear, so true. So BEAUTIFUL.

Then came the pills and the booze o mke her "pris chic" as some of oyu put it, but really to make her skeletal. And in every single one of those videos you all have posted,, I can see the amphetamines. So she may have been a great stylist and a great jazz interpreter, she destroyed her voice with the poison. It was nver beautiful any more. Here she was, finally what those stuido guys wanted her 18 yer old self to be, namely skinny and waif-like (you call it Paris chic), but hat she really was was burnt out, addicted and no voice left. and s desperately drien to style over substance. No wonder she needed the boose and the speed.

I just can't enjoy her later work. There is no beauty there for me.

replies 166Aug 26, 2017 3:27 PM +00:00

sorry about all the typos.

replies 167Aug 26, 2017 3:29 PM +00:00

Hey, you're only human.

--Frances G.
replies 168Aug 26, 2017 4:52 PM +00:00

Her voice was damaged by her suicide even then. She was, at her best, from those days onward, an entertainer. If you want a great voice, look for Ella Fitzgerald. I remember Judy on reruns from JackPaar or Johnny Carson, telling apocryphal stories from Vaudeville. She was a gifted entertainer but that's different from being a great singer.

replies 169Aug 26, 2017 5:32 PM +00:00

"Her voice was damaged by her suicide even then."

Nothing - NOTHING is worse for your voice than suicide.

replies 170Aug 26, 2017 5:41 PM +00:00

I'm actually pretty neutral when it comes to JG. She was before my time, but matched the period when my parents were moving from early adulthood to middle age. The reason I frame this the way I do is because the "attitude" my mother and father expressed about her was one of disappointment and something I guess they handed down to me..

They loved Ella, Sinatra, Tony Bennett, Count Basie, Nat King Cole and all of that bunch. But Garland presented them with a dilemma. They did think she was a great talent, but by the late 50s they perceived her decline as not only the sign of a lack of discipline, but also as one of erratic bravado covering up a damaged life. I really do remember them sort of rolling their eyes as she coiled herself in a mic cord on TV doing away with consonants.

I've been reading this thread, and my perceptions do come second hand in a way as I perceive Garland through the lens of my mother and father. But thinking back, it does make sense why everything from A Star Is Born on had the whiff of valiant failure. She was brilliant but couldn't get A Star Is Born to turn a profit. She was brilliant but her TV show was canceled after one season. She was brilliant but even with the triumph of her Carnegie Hall concert and its attendant tour found fewer opportunities and a smaller fan base.

It's hard, decades later, to understand why such a talent was ultimately met in her time with a lack of enthusiasm. But with perspective, the output of a popular artist is always conjoined with their public persona and reputation. In the case of Garland, her talent was eclipsed by the emotional turmoil and attendant gossip that was poison in her time.

--Addison DeWitt's grandson
replies 171Aug 26, 2017 6:36 PM +00:00

Another one who allowed her demons to destroy her was Rosemary Clooney. She lived much longer than Garland and though she made something of a half hearted comeback her voice was pretty much shot at that point.

She's somebody who should have been listed with those above and she's not for a reason.

And the one who made the deepest sharpest drop was Crosby. Outside of Christmas his fanclub must consist of 10 people. For some reason his singing has dated horribly though at one time he was the biggest of them all. I still love though his duets with Armstrong and Sinatra in High Society. Supreme musicianship.

Of course it doesn't help when you've turned out to be Daddy Dearest.

replies 172Aug 26, 2017 7:00 PM +00:00

It's too bad Carousel wasn't Frank and Judy as originally hoped for.

replies 173Aug 26, 2017 8:32 PM +00:00

Oh good grief, everyone agrees it was a brilliant piece of work. Was it the "BEST"? Who knows, I'm sure there are probably better things out there, but it was excellent.

replies 174Aug 26, 2017 9:56 PM +00:00
What parent gives a 12 year old boy a Judy Garland CD I ask you.

I'm 54, it was the double album set! Actually a man my mother worked for gave it to me. I had been at his house and he had an incredible collection of LPs, and knew I'd be waiting for my mother, so he said to put on whatever I liked, and I found the Carnegie Hall album, which I'd never heard of. I think I left it on the turntable, and he asked my mother if I had enjoyed it. She said, "He enjoyed it".

If Judy had lived she would have been a Regan Democrat. Her daughter Liza is a big Trump supporter.

HUH? Are you CRAZY??!

Judy was a true blue New Deal Democrat!
replies 175Aug 26, 2017 11:07 PM +00:00
The reason I frame this the way I do is because the "attitude" my mother and father expressed about her was one of disappointment and something I guess they handed down to me

My parents hated her.

They grew up with her and the Judy/Mickey movies. But by the 1960s they looked on her like you might a Lindsey Lohan today: someone who was spoiled and squandered their success. She was a drunk.

At that time, people outside of show-biz didn't know or understand the back story.

replies 176Aug 27, 2017 12:50 AM +00:00

"And the one who made the deepest sharpest drop was Crosby. Outside of Christmas, his fan club must consist of 10 people. For some reason, his singing has dated horribly though at one time he was the biggest of them all."

Even though Crosby was decades before my time, I still enjoy hearing a song of his. I'll admit his "sound" is dated, especially when we're taken back in time to the 1940s every Christmas with "White Christmas".

As far as his career is concerned, he lasted quite awhile. Basically from the late 1930s through his Christmas specials until his death in 1977. Music, radio, movies, television.

replies 177Aug 27, 2017 4:02 AM +00:00

Garland was never hailed on the level of Piaf, who was deemed 'art'. In comparison, Garland was relegated to 'show business' like her daughter.

replies 178Aug 27, 2017 4:43 AM +00:00

Nonsense. Rosemary Clooney's songbook albums of the late 70s to mid 80s are her best work. Her voice had declined some but it wasn't a ruin. Her interpretive powers had only increased.

Sinatra called her "the best friend a song ever had.

replies 179Aug 27, 2017 5:30 AM +00:00

Rosie at the height of her powers.

Rosemary performed this song on The Merv Griffin Show March 17, 1975. When Rosemary passed away Larry King played this clip as a tribute to her on his show. ...
replies 180Aug 27, 2017 5:32 AM +00:00

For me her voice became too husky, dry and labored even in that clip no matter how good her interpretations. In the 50s it was so effortless. Cook even after the alcoholism and weight gain kept a fresh effortless quality to the voice.

And though Crosby had a long career his drop was precipitous. He even had trouble selling tickets at the Uris I believe in the mid 70s even with Clooney on the bill. I don't even think any eldergays listen to him. Even the old women who loved him are for the most part dead at this point. I know there was an effort to resuscitate him but it didn't take hold.

replies 181Aug 27, 2017 5:48 AM +00:00

Rosie was at the peak of her powers in White Christmas. Her looks and voice... well that's a great talent at its peak.

I don't know how you can even compare that Merv clip to Love You Didn't Do Right By Me or Count You Blessings.

replies 182Aug 27, 2017 5:53 AM +00:00

Bing Crosby was popular from the EARLY '30s, not late.

replies 183Aug 27, 2017 6:29 AM +00:00

I never got Bing Crosby's appeal until I watched clips from his early films.

Although he wasn't actually handsome, there was a prettiness to his face.

Like Fred Astaire, there was an elegant sort of feminine quality about him, but unlike Astaire, Crosby was down right sexy, with a cocky attitude.

I can understand why women back then were crazy about him.

Crosby in 1933:

Professor Bing Crosby teaches a class of college students what they *really* need to know in College Humor (1933). He reprises the song later at a dance.
replies 184Aug 27, 2017 6:48 AM +00:00

R120 I grew up with TWoO once a year on teevee like a lot of 60s--70s kids did, then my adult friend's kids had it on VHS and watched it a lot so I watched it some more with them. I felt like there were no surprises left in TWoO. Many years later I was working with some 3 year olds who were obsessed with acting out the story, and listening to a wee kids book on tape that had someone doing a Judy Garland impression for her lines (no songs.) Well, come MLK holiday in January, school is closed and what is playing at the local movie palace of yore but a matinee of TWoO. So I sent out a note to the parents at school and about 40 (!) families showed up to the screening. We all sat together and the kids watched the full-length film on a big screen. It was AMAZING. I was blown away by JG and her limpid pool eyes, she was so beautiful and affecting. When I thought that movie had nothing left to give, seeing it on a movie screen surrounded by enrapt and dazzled children was one of the best movie-going experiences I can recall.

replies 185Aug 27, 2017 7:47 AM +00:00
I was blown away by JG and her limpid pool eyes


replies 186Aug 27, 2017 7:57 AM +00:00
No wonder she needed the boose and the speed.

Someone else needs spellcheck.

replies 187Aug 27, 2017 8:24 AM +00:00

R186 Mary is my mother, I will have you know! And I am a LadyWriter.

Any-who, really, JG's eyes are brimming with tears in so many scenes and seeing them 20 feet wide on the screen was mesmerizing.

She was like those sad-eyed Keene paintings 30 years ahead of time. Except her life was already so fucked up by then, it's sad in layered multitudes of ways. I have no doubt some bad shit happened to JG as a young, unprotected girl in the studio system. Pills and booze were only the outwardly visible effects exploitation had on her.

replies 188Aug 27, 2017 8:31 AM +00:00

While Piaf had a marvelous interpretive gift and repertoire the only reason she was adored by a certain class of Americans was because she was French and considered to be Bohemian chic. Her record sales in the USA were nowhere near as large as Garland's.

Piaf was every bit the addict JG was, of course, and their private lives mirrored each other in a number of ways - gay husbands, bisexual, etc.

replies 189Aug 27, 2017 8:35 AM +00:00

I adored Judy from the first moment I saw and heard her in TWoO. From then on, I was delighted if I ran across one of her old movies on television, especially the Judy/Mickey 'let's put on a show' movies.

replies 190Aug 27, 2017 9:48 AM +00:00

r171, you just described why Judy is a beloved gay icon, at least to men of a certain age. She had talent to burn, and she burnt it, and she begged for our understanding. And we were only too happy to give it. She met with adversity, and she fought against it, and she failed. And we loved her because she fought the good fight. Mary!

That microphone cord was more than a prop. It was her security blanket and she made it take on a life of its own. Miley can only wish she could make her wrecking ball talk, if only to comment on her sweaty twat.

replies 191Aug 27, 2017 1:33 PM +00:00

Nothing more au courant than a 4-year-old Miley Cyrus reference! Guess I should be relieved it wasn't Debbie Gibson?

replies 192Aug 27, 2017 3:15 PM +00:00

Seeing a classic movie in a cinema with a large audience is always a great experience.

My favorite movie experiences were seeing some classic films at Radio City and in the large Times Square movie palaces before they were all torn down in the redevelopment of midtown.

And then there was the closing night singalong Sound of Music at the Ziegfeld which was so amazing because I'm a purist about these things and found the idea obnoxious.

The entire audience was on a total high(I smelled no joints) and we all left exhilarated. It was pretty great.

replies 193Aug 27, 2017 3:22 PM +00:00

I love Judy but she was also known to be a user and dropped you when she was done with you. She also tried people's patience to the breaking point. You had to constantly tell her how wonderful she was when she inevitably came to you with her I'm so worthless sob story. Read Saul Chaplin's autobio where he pretty much says he refused to be drawn into her cycle of egotism and self pity.

Easter Parade was a glorious success but the ever gentlemanly Astaire never worked with her again and as far as I know didn't appear on her TV show though at that point he was doing a lot of television.

After she was fired from Barkeleys of Broadway and Royal Wedding he had had enough and was finished with her.

I believe even Charles Walters who directed Easter Parade said after he did Summer Stock, 'Never again.'

She lost her well deserved Oscar for Star is Born because she seems to have burned a lot of bridges. Sending that shaving mug to Rogers she found hilarious but it was really nasty and cruel.

replies 194Aug 27, 2017 3:46 PM +00:00

r194 I agree that she probably was a user, and cruel. One has to wonder how much of all that behavior was from drug use.

replies 195Aug 27, 2017 3:58 PM +00:00

This is the most interesting Judy thread on DL in a long time.

replies 196Aug 27, 2017 4:52 PM +00:00

r196 agreed

replies 197Aug 27, 2017 5:26 PM +00:00

I try to remember that dead or alive, famous entertainers don't owe me anything other than their performance should I choose to buy it (record, concert ticket, film). To me, listening to Ann Miller talk about Judy seems to get her general nature just right, and Ann was very fond of Judy.

replies 198Aug 27, 2017 5:28 PM +00:00

Do I really need these tunes in my head?

replies 199Aug 27, 2017 6:02 PM +00:00

One of the best things about Judy's voice IMO is that vibrato; she used it to great effect, even at an early age. And I'm not exactly sure what this might be called, but she could "slide" a single word down several notes and make it sound perfectly natural. One good example I can think of is when she sings "I Cried for You" in one of the Andy Hardy films: she sings, "I'll find two eyes a little bit bluer/find a heart a little bit truuuer..."

I have never understood the allure of Piaf. Screeching on a chalkboard. When that Dove chocolate commercial comes on with that caterwauling, it makes my head explode.

And I for one am able to separate Judy's personal life and habits from her voice - after all, that (and her film and TV performances) are really all that's left standing, right?

--diehard Judy fan
replies 200Aug 27, 2017 6:10 PM +00:00

Anyone remember this animated film starring JG and Robert Goulet as frisky French pussy cats? It's 1962's "GAY PURR-EE!" Like TWoO, this used be on tv once a year in the 60s and then kinda faded out. I cannot find the film online but here's a link to the trailer...MEWSWETTE!

Trailer to 1962's "Gay Purr-ee" starring the vocal talents of Judy Garland, Robert Goulet, Red Buttons, Hermoine Gingold.
--Miss Gulch
replies 201Aug 27, 2017 7:12 PM +00:00

Argh! Typo! It is MEWSETTE, merci beaucoup.

--Miss Gulch
replies 202Aug 27, 2017 7:13 PM +00:00

Of course, we remember "Gay Purr-ee"!!!

I've loved this movie since I was a kid. I, like others, first saw it on television in the 1970s.

I have the CD soundtrack. It's a limited edition so I'm not sure if it's still available. I've had the DVD for awhile.

Anyway, Garland stated that the song "Little Drops of Rain", from the movie, was one of her favorite songs.

Interesting factoid: the songs from GP were written by Harold Arlen and E. Y. Harburg, the guys who wrote songs for "Oz".

Provided to YouTube by Warner Music Group Little Drops of Rain (Remastered) · Judy Garland Gay Purr-ee O.S.T. ? 1962 Warner Bros. Entertainment, Inc. All Rig...
replies 203Aug 27, 2017 7:54 PM +00:00

I saw Gay Purree on TV when I was a kid. One of those things I loved that then mysteriously disappeared.

Remember that Judy started very young and actually had an extended film career by the time she was 30 years old. When she left MGM at the ripe old age of 28 (!) she had already been making movies for fifteen years. It's no wonder she was worn out at such a young age.

replies 204Aug 27, 2017 9:01 PM +00:00

She's so good, I've hated her for years.

--Barbra Joan Streisand Gould Brolin
replies 205Aug 27, 2017 9:43 PM +00:00

My mother loved Judy. She wants 'Over The Rainbow' played at her funeral.

On August 31, 1967, Judy gave a free concert on the Boston Common. It was Judy's largest audience ever estimated at 108,000 people. I was 12. I knew about the concert and wanted to go. My mother went with my aunts. I wish they took me with them.
replies 206Aug 27, 2017 9:55 PM +00:00

Was Judy a contralto? Her voice strikes me as deeper, lower, richer than a mezzo.

replies 207Aug 27, 2017 10:15 PM +00:00

Yes Garland was a contralto. Other famous contaltos are Annie Lennox, Karen Carpenter, Cher and Gladys Knight.

--anne murray, anita baker, rihanna too
replies 208Aug 27, 2017 10:36 PM +00:00

Kathleen Ferrier!

replies 209Aug 28, 2017 12:06 AM +00:00

Everybody loves Judy's thrilling belting show-stoppers, but my favorite among the Carnegie Hall songs is "Do It Again". It shows Judy's delicacy and tenderness as a singer. And the song is beyond intimate - it's downright carnal. And she sings it like someone who hasn't had 'it' for a VERY long time.....

replies 210Aug 28, 2017 1:57 AM +00:00

Ernestine Schumann-Heink!

replies 211Aug 28, 2017 2:07 AM +00:00

R210 -

One of the best things about CD box sets is discovering songs you had never heard before.

I first heard the song "Do It Again" on the box set "The One and Only", a 3-disc set released in late 1991. I had so many box sets and heard so many songs which I now love.

Another JG song, "Happy Days/Get Happy", the duet with Streisand from The JG Show, I first heard on the Streisand set "Just For the Record". Considering it was performed almost 30 years earlier, I can't believe I didn't know about it. What kind of gayling was I?

replies 212Aug 28, 2017 3:02 AM +00:00

That sort of thing was extremely hard to find for many years, r212. I had heard a bootleg copy of it when I was in college in the 80's, but you could not walk into a store and buy those things. For about 30 years or so, they were unobtainable.

Judy and Frank were in a class by themselves as far as interpreting a lyric. Here is Judy taking an old warhorse of a song and plumbing depths out of it that you didn't even know were there.

"That Old Feeling" is a popular song written by Sammy Fain, with lyrics by Lew Brown. It was published in 1937. The song first appeared in the movie Vogues o...
replies 213Aug 28, 2017 6:12 AM +00:00

That's no warhorse, R213 - that's a GREAT song! Both Judy and Frank do justice do it - it's on Frank's "Nice n' Easy" album.

Agree this is one of DL's best Judy threads ever - wherever her spirit is, it is shimmering with love today!

--thank you Judy!
replies 214Aug 28, 2017 6:16 AM +00:00

Here Judy gives us a taste of what might have been: Too Late Now from Royal Wedding.

replies 215Aug 28, 2017 6:26 AM +00:00

There were many songs that Judy "owned".

I know many people snicker at her look in Meet Me In St. Louis. But if you can look past all of that, she was wonderful in that movie. Nobody could touch Judy on "Have Yourself A Merry Little Christmas." She nailed the melancholy in the song. She nailed the hope in the song (Next year all our troubles will be miles away). I dare you to name one person that did the song better than Judy.

Plus, you know you wanted to own that head scarf she is wearing!

From the movie "Meet me in St. Louis" (1944). Con Subtitulos en Español
replies 216Aug 28, 2017 6:31 AM +00:00

Tony Bennett made a miraculous live recording at Carnegie Hall, as well.

replies 217Aug 28, 2017 6:34 AM +00:00

A new and wonderful Judy thread. I had forgotten about the wonderful GAY PuRREE. Young Eldergay, who stole this record from a neighbor. Years later she told me she knew, but didn't have the heart to take Judyaway from a 10 year old gayling. Bless her, bless Judy. If there is a heaven, I will get to thank her, and that sometimes keeps me going.

--proud MARY!
replies 218Aug 28, 2017 6:55 AM +00:00

I think Judy is absolutely gorgeous in MMISL!! And photographed with love by her soon-to-be husband.

replies 219Aug 28, 2017 7:24 AM +00:00

r212: The "Happy Days/Get Happy" duet is deservedly a classic, but I prefer the "Plaid Shirts" duet. It's the first time Streisand really relaxes with another performer and she and Judy are clearly having a blast breaking each other up, ad-libbing. But here Judy has the upper hand - Her smooth "After You've Gone" makes Barbra hum "Pretty pretty!" and when Judy shows Barbra "You're the new belter, kid, but I still got it!" with "You and The Night and the Music" Barbra "AAAAGGH"s in delight and awe and leans into Judy and says something I've never been able to make out. And the finish of "It All Depends on You" sends shivers up my spine.

Streisand was supposed to follow the Garland show with a Bing Crosby special, but her manager Martin Ehrlichman cancelled it, telling her "That's it. No more guest spots where you sing with the host. It would be a come-down after you've sung with the greatest singer there is."

replies 220Aug 28, 2017 8:56 AM +00:00

I fell in love for the first time watching MMISL. Yes, it was Judy, I was 10. She is beautiful in that. But I love her in most anything. My favourite entertainer bar none.

replies 221Aug 28, 2017 10:51 AM +00:00

Interesting because at that time Crosby was considered among the cream. It wasn't as if she was going to sing with Jack Jones.

replies 222Aug 28, 2017 11:26 AM +00:00

One of my favorites by Judy from her CBS show

replies 223Aug 28, 2017 12:15 PM +00:00

A fave of mine.

Show # 18. I've Heard That Song Before (Judy & Martha) Moonlight Cocktail (Judy & Martha) Pennsylvania 6-5000 (Judy & Martha) Elmer's Tune (Judy & Martha) At...
replies 224Aug 28, 2017 1:27 PM +00:00

Y'all have reminded me that it's almost time for "St. Louis".

I consider it an autumn picture, as it also has a Halloween bit.

It's like "Holiday Inn", you watch it before the traditional Christmas movies.

It just seems like a "getting ready for fall/winter" type of movie.

replies 225Aug 28, 2017 3:51 PM +00:00

Never considered that, R225. I do Universal monster movies in the fall, obviously.

replies 226Aug 28, 2017 4:01 PM +00:00

Judy to the Rescue

Judy Garland decides that Ann Miller needs an intervention in this reality show parody. Voices of Judy, Liza, and Ann performed by Jeff Marquis. Written by C...
--Hollywood Hoarder
replies 227Aug 28, 2017 4:10 PM +00:00

Judy's Groceries.....

Take a humorous shopping trip with Judy Garland and Liza Minnelli. Voices of Judy, Liza, and Ann performed by Jeff Marquis. Written by Chris Tassin and Jeff ...
replies 228Aug 28, 2017 4:14 PM +00:00

Her vibrato was a problem, not an asset. It was wide and slow and wobbly. Garland was emotive and inconsistent. Sometimes within one phrase, often within a single song. For sure within a concert. She was the queen of the vocal build up with her amazing use of crescendos and series of belts and the clarion last note. Her quieter song renditions are gold and show what a wonderful interpreter of music she could be. Her voice is quite remarkable and very expressive for someone with barely more than a two octave range who seldom used her head voice. It's the resonance that thrills, her beautiful dynamics and power a great sense of musical timing. The belting was over utilized and often highlighted her vocal flaws (uncontrolled vibrato on extended notes, too loud) to be honest. On a song like Stormy Weather at Carnegie Hall, she used every part of her talent to express the song beautifully. She keeps the consonants and caresses the lyrical and musical build of the song. Small jazz fall aways, dark drama singing with one good and one a m a z i n g crescendo, the staccato belts and the drawn out pause all build the performance into something magnificent. The last line is not a strident belt but a purposefully husky, emotional diminuendo trail away. Keeps raining all the ti..iiiime. She was in control of that great big song from start to finish.

Picking songs apart bothers some older DL posters but some of us know more about singing and vocal production. Garland had a very good voice and was a good singer. Don't listen to those who, in embarrassment for their gay adoration downplay her real talent. Singing. LIVE. She fucked that all up of course eventually and was never a great recording artist. Her exuberant vibrato and gorgeous dynamic powers worked on a song like Danny Boy though. Who wants to listen to that record?

Judy Garland sings the classic Irish Folk-Song, "Danny Boy" during a Capital Records recording session in 1955. This track was featured in the 1955 Album, "M...
replies 229Aug 28, 2017 4:45 PM +00:00

R229= Michael Feinstein

replies 230Aug 28, 2017 4:57 PM +00:00

I believe that song should be sung by an Irish lass r229.

The iconic,legendary Irish film actress and singer,Maureen O'Hara singing the iconic.legendary 'Danny Boy' is a terrific mix.In August 2014,Maureen was accor...
replies 231Aug 28, 2017 5:07 PM +00:00

r231 Judy had loads of Irish heritage.

replies 232Aug 28, 2017 5:16 PM +00:00

I anticipated your response R230. I am a classical pianist and accompanist, but much younger than Michael Feinstein. I'm surprised you didn't call me Seth. You could learn something about Garland from my post or be an old grandpa & keep cursing Britney Spears as you did in your previous posts. Good luck to you. Garland is worth discussing but not worth holding onto. She doesn't stand the test of time with her nervous wreck of an approach to singing + only one good recording.

replies 233Aug 28, 2017 5:29 PM +00:00

R233 blocked her pompous ass.

replies 234Aug 28, 2017 5:30 PM +00:00

R233 doesn't know what she's talking about. If Garland didn't stand the test of time, how come I bought 2 CD cases + The Wizard of Oz in 2013??? Already had Easter Parade bought about a year or two before. We are talking 60+ years after these films were made. And I was born two decades after she died.

replies 235Aug 28, 2017 6:11 PM +00:00
Spitcurls, we used to call them in my day...anyway
all people don't give a fuck about Millennials.
then go swoon over Taylor Swift and Beyonce. They're more your speed.
blocked her pompous ass.

Ancient gay @ R234 sure has a lot to say. Still he can't converse with this younger man of musical experience and expertise, so he had to feminize me with pronouns? I thought you old fags were against that? Nah, you invented calling men she and her. The ones who wouldn't fuck you. Blocking a man with my attributes and contribution from a Judy Garland thread takes some very fragile hysteric thinking. Best take care of yourself gramps. Your Britney and Taylor Swift references slayed. Like people compare them to Garland? Bet you have a lot to say about Beyonce too. The world's greatest entertainer, ha. Do you call Whitney a caterwauler? Nah, you have bit more sense than that.

--R235 - look at the counts on Garland performances on Youtube - she has few fans
replies 236Aug 28, 2017 6:16 PM +00:00

R235, No one, other than a subset of gay men (who identify with her) listen to Garland. I bet a number of them that do, trash other "druggie" female singers too, but for some reason she gets a pass.

replies 237Aug 28, 2017 6:19 PM +00:00

R237 you couldn't be more off base.

replies 238Aug 28, 2017 6:21 PM +00:00

I am not a gay man and mostly listen to her recordings from the 1930s and 1940s, but especially watch (or rather re-watch) her movies. My favourite is Easter Parade, followed by Wizard of Oz and MMIS.

The first time I ever saw Garland was around 1988.

replies 239Aug 28, 2017 6:25 PM +00:00

Agree with just about everything you say, R229, except I find that vibrato very unique and endearing; I think she had more control over it than you think and used it to great effect. For a small woman, a smoker, (and let's not enough start on alcohol and other substances), Judy had great breath control, even near the end. She was never off pitch; and she often used a crack in her voice, small sob, or even spoken words with great timing. And she could always provide the big boffo finish, again sometimes remarkably for a small and impaired woman. Her personal history and emotional status, good or bad, clearly impacted her live performances, but overall I think for the better. I too wish she had just remained a live concert performer, moving on to studio recording or perhaps even cabaret, and then gracefully retiring, popping up once in awhile like Streisand.

Clearly I am a total Judy devotee, however there is one small thing that irks me: I never liked any of the clown schtick, with the costume and makeup and wigs and all. I always felt it was beneath her, and at its worst, maudlin, giving her an excuse to go sit on the edge of the stage, pull the wig off, and sing some slow number. It always felt kind of manipulative and vaudevillian in a Bert Wheeler kind of way. All she really needed was an audience and a mike.

replies 240Aug 28, 2017 6:31 PM +00:00

R218 I love your GP album thieving story! What a cool neighbor to let you keep it because it was needed.

R203 I am thinking about buying a DVD of this movie for my niece, but I want to watch it and make sure it's not terrible in some way I do not recall.

Chuck Jones of Looney Toons made this movie, which explains why it reminded me of Pepe Le Pew cartoons when I was a kid. Voices by Mel Blanc and Morey Amsterdam (!)

Gaaaah I really want to watch this now.

--Miss Guch
replies 241Aug 28, 2017 6:46 PM +00:00

who was her girlfriend?

replies 242Aug 28, 2017 6:56 PM +00:00

Thank you DataLounge for celebrating the incomparable Judy Garland.

Too often attention is paid to her personal struggles, but that only distracts from her absolute brilliance as a performer.

Judy at Carnegie Hall is a triumph. No one can touch it.

replies 243Aug 28, 2017 7:54 PM +00:00

Is there no film footage of the Carnegie Hall appearance?

replies 244Aug 28, 2017 8:34 PM +00:00

Who is this insufferable jackass who gets on these threads and posts simply as an excuse to toot his own horn about what an erudite, educated musician he is and what exquisite taste he has and how dare anyone here question his (extremely questionable) conclusions that he has drawn about Judy's talent, vocal gifts, and interpretive gifts? Whoever you are cunt, GET LOST. No one wants you here. You are a fucking idiot and don't know one tenth of what you think you know. Judy Garland possessed more talent in the fingernail of her pinkie finger than you can ever even imagine having. Now be gone with you, before somebody drops a house on you, too!

replies 245Aug 28, 2017 9:40 PM +00:00

Thanks for the compliments R245. I know a lot it's true. More than any singer - Garland's fans need to be educated about the quality or her vocal production vs the discrepancies of her vocal reputation. It would take many pages to deconstruct her vocal gifts and trajectory. Most of her fans are hysterical old fags who vacillate from weepy to bitter feelings about her talent, depending on what kind of pudding they got for dinner. Older gay men seem to possess the most narrow range of feeling from weepy to rage. No matter the subject.

Garland has one album worth playing and celebrating. I participated in discussing and dissecting her fascinating talent. You're welcome R245. But don't call me or anyone else a cunt gramps. This subject may be old as you, but it's a new world here on Datalounge. You can't pass off your attitude as expertise and you don't speak for everyone. nOw Shoo. I can smell you from here.

replies 246Aug 28, 2017 10:22 PM +00:00

You are absolutely full of shit. You know much less than you think you know and Garland fans do not 'need to be educated' you insufferable twat. CUNT.

replies 247Aug 28, 2017 10:27 PM +00:00

"you can't pass off your attitude as expertise"

but that's exactly what YOU'RE doing, r246.

replies 248Aug 28, 2017 10:28 PM +00:00

Cannot fucking believe the idiot @ R246 etc. When a performer outlasts their lifetime, there is true talent, even genius, somewhere. Audiences are not that stupid or tasteless. The one who will be forgotten is you, not JUDY.

replies 249Aug 28, 2017 10:52 PM +00:00

Are you that poster who posted at length about Whitney Houston?

replies 250Aug 28, 2017 11:06 PM +00:00

Y'all sound like the youtube posters under the Garland videos. This not forgotten performer gets about two thousand views on most of her clips. Pitiful amounts with straggling comments. The same posters quote over and over again -

" The rest will be forgotten, but never JUDY."

"She was the world's greatest entertainer"

"this is real music"

"taylor swift and britney spears take note"

"she gave all she had to give every time"

By the way you suffocating old frauds, Tony Bennett went on to say that Whitney Houston was the greatest singer he ever heard and that KD Lang was the greatest singer he ever sang with. Then he said that Amy Winehouse was the greatest drug addicted singer he ever heard and finally that Lady Gaga was the greatest singer he had ever heard, in his ear, that day. Garland was not the greatest singer even when she was alive, but she was spectacular in some ways. No ancient fag is gonna call anyone a c^nt. Not me gramps. My culture will see you dead R247.

replies 251Aug 28, 2017 11:16 PM +00:00

Thank you for recommending Do It Again, R210 and the other two posters upthread.

replies 252Aug 29, 2017 1:14 AM +00:00

I appreciate the comments and analyses of r229, even if one vehemently disagrees, The raw, unembarrassed emotion of Garland's concert performances is something that either repels or grabs listeners. I adore Garland but I can only listen to Carnegie Hall in sports. Garland is thrilling, but she can also be exhausting, which is why I increasingly refer the quieter, more intimate moments (like "Do It Again" and "That Old Feeling")

r240: I cannot tell you how much I also loathe the "sad clown' /'tramp' shtick. I wince at the cutesy "A Couple of Swells" number in EASTER PARADE.

replies 253Aug 29, 2017 2:19 AM +00:00

This Garland chitchat will doubtless be in full flow as the North Korean missiles strike and only cease with the encrispment of the posters or the destruction of the datalounge server.

replies 254Aug 29, 2017 2:24 AM +00:00

Agree with r50. r161's clip of "Franklin D. Roosevelt Jones" from BABES OJN BROADWAY is one of her most thrilling moments in any of her films.

replies 255Aug 29, 2017 2:24 AM +00:00

I love "Alone Together" on the Carnegie Hall album. Talk about a "coded gay" song! That was a perfect example.

replies 256Aug 29, 2017 2:49 AM +00:00
If you can get beyond the blackface Franklin D Roosevelt Jones from Babes on Broadway is the most astounding musical performance by a teenager ever.

We got beyond it.

--Datalounge's eldergay contingent
replies 257Aug 29, 2017 4:11 AM +00:00

This is a small amount of Carnegie Hall footage with vocals from the record synched up. Oh, to have been there!

Using rare home movies, radio interviews and stills, Steve celebrates the anniversary of what has been called the greatest concert ever given by one of our m...
replies 258Aug 29, 2017 9:40 AM +00:00

I'm not having this sacrilege. Leave Judy Alone you bully.
replies 259Aug 29, 2017 9:48 AM +00:00

Worst thing that ever happened to gay male culture.

replies 260Aug 29, 2017 10:40 AM +00:00

Gay male culture exists because of Garland so what the hell are you talking about?

Henry James novels?

replies 261Aug 29, 2017 10:52 AM +00:00

I'm aware that the album was recorded from a single concert, but was this concert one night of several or was there just the one?

replies 262Aug 29, 2017 10:52 AM +00:00

That Little Miss Muffet who thinks so much of her musical erudition and analytical powers is quite the doozy.

replies 263Aug 29, 2017 11:11 AM +00:00

Our Miss Muffet went to the Sheboygan Conservatory of Music.

replies 264Aug 29, 2017 11:12 AM +00:00

r264 Excuse me, I believe it's spelled Chez Boigonne. And watch your vibrato while saying it.

replies 265Aug 29, 2017 11:15 AM +00:00

This thread went off the rails faster than the Trolley.

--Lucille Bremer
replies 266Aug 29, 2017 11:24 AM +00:00

Well I guess Pasadena just isn't your town Lucille.

replies 267Aug 29, 2017 11:26 AM +00:00

R251 etc also needs to be called out on her blatent ageism.

R251, you're an ageist cunt of the lowest order. Yes, you may bury us, but you will contribute nothing to the happiness of the world while you're here.

Now get off my fucking lawn.

replies 268Aug 29, 2017 12:02 PM +00:00

Before she buries us we will stifle the ageist pedantic tendentious twat with a sofa pillow.

replies 269Aug 29, 2017 1:30 PM +00:00

This has been the most shocking thread on DL for a while, if not ever. We have been overrun by trolls. Which reminds me, we don't hear so much about our severely depressed posters anymore. I wonder who drove them away. Assholes.

replies 270Aug 29, 2017 2:10 PM +00:00


Mrs. Garrett teaching the girls the real facts of life.
replies 271Aug 29, 2017 3:43 PM +00:00

JUDY GARLAND 1961 work schedule

January 9 Miami (Deauville Hotel) February 12 The Catskills (Concord Hotel) February 21 Dallas (State Fair Auditorium) Official start of the concert tour February 23 Houston (City Auditorium)


April 6 Buffalo (Kleinhans Music Hall) April 9 Washington, D.C. (Constitution Hall) April 11 Birmingham (Municipal Auditorium) April 13 Atlanta (Municipal Auditorium) April 15 Greensboro (Coliseum) April 17 Charlotte (Coliseum) April 23 New York (Carnegie Hall) April 19 Philadelphia (Academy of Music)

May 2 Newark (Mosque Theater) May 6 Chicago (Civic Opera House) May 8 Dallas (Music Hall) May 10 Houston (Sam Houston Coliseum) May 12 Detroit (Masonic Auditorium) May 14 Cleveland (Music Hall) May 21 New York (Carnegie Hall return)

July 1 Forest Hills, NY (Forest Hills Stadium) July 3 Newport (Newport Jazz Festival) July 30 Forest Hills, NY (Forest Hills Stadium return)

August 4 Atlantic City (Convention Hall Ballroom)

September 3 Atlantic City (Convention Hall Ballroom return) September 13 San Francisco (Civic Auditorium) September 16 Hollywood (Hollywood Bowl) September 20 Denver (Coliseum) September 29 White Plains, NY (Westchester Country Club)

October 1 Hartford (Bushnell Auditorium) October 7 Newark (Mosque Theater return) October 13 recorded "Comes Once in a Lifetime" and "Sweet Danger" single.

October 17 Rochester (War Memorial) October 19 Pittsburgh (Civic Auditorium) October 21 Haddonfield (The Arena) October 27 Boston (Boston Garden) October 29 Montreal (The Forum)

November recorded GAY PURR-EE

November 20 Los Angeles (Beverly Hills Hotel) November 25 Miami Beach (Exhibition Hall) November 28 Jersey City (Stanley Theater)

December 3 Toronto (O'Keefe Center) December 5 Toronto (O'Keefe Center) December 9 Washington D.C. (Armory)

January 1962 rehearsed and shot her TV special with Frank Sinatra and Dean Martin and then began filming A CHILD IS WAITING.

replies 272Aug 29, 2017 5:15 PM +00:00

With that kind of a work schedule, why was Judy always broke? I'm not being snarky, I'm genuinely curious as to where all the money went. She should've been quite well-off.

replies 273Aug 29, 2017 5:35 PM +00:00

From Wikipedia:

In 1993, a book by Coyne Steven Sanders, Rainbow's End: The Judy Garland Show (Morrow 1990), about the history of Judy Garland's CBS Television series The Judy Garland Show (1963–64), devoted a chapter to possible embezzlement of Garland's funds by Begelman. Garland's estranged husband at the time, Sid Luft, hired an attorney to audit her income from the time Begelman began representing her with fellow agent Freddie Fields. It was discovered that several hundred thousand dollars were missing, much of it written in checks to "Cash" and endorsed by Begelman at various casinos in Las Vegas. Other entries in her accounts showed large sums paid for "protection" with no authorization, all approved by Begelman, though Garland had no personal security. In addition, a 1963 Cadillac convertible, given to Garland as partial payment for appearances on Jack Paar's television program, was titled to Begelman. Garland never knew the car was part of her compensation for her appearance.

In addition, Begelman told Garland a photo existed of her, partially nude, having her stomach pumped in a hospital emergency room after a drug overdose in London, and that blackmailers were demanding $50,000 to turn over the picture and all negatives. As she was in negotiations with CBS at the time for her new TV series, Garland paid rather than face the adverse publicity and potentially damaging the deal's prospects. Luft's attorney eventually determined that the check went to a holding company with a business address in New York City owned by Begelman, and was further traced to a personal account of Begelman.

Rather than confront Begelman at a time when he was playing such a pivotal role in her show business re-emergence, Garland decided to eat the financial losses based upon the promise of millions coming from the deal with CBS. Once her show was cancelled, however, she and Luft sued Begelman for the hundreds of thousands he had allegedly stolen as well as $1 million in punitive damages. Due to her dire financial situation at the time, Garland was forced to settle the suit for royalties owed her by Capitol Records that Begelman and Fields, as her agents, had collected but were holding because of the lawsuit.

replies 274Aug 29, 2017 5:39 PM +00:00

I've never heard anyone belt as beautifully as she does in The Man That Got Away. It is utter perfection. The power balanced by the beauty of tone and the heartrending interpretation is moving almost beyond words.

replies 275Aug 29, 2017 9:58 PM +00:00

The bad part of being so vulnerable is that assholes take advantage of you, as Begelman did Garland. She lost a great deal of money that she had worked very hard for. No security for her old age.

replies 276Aug 29, 2017 10:04 PM +00:00

No liver or brain cells left for her old age either. Like Whitney and Elvis, Garland died right on time for her legacy, if a few years too late for her reputation.

replies 277Aug 29, 2017 10:10 PM +00:00

Begelman is a shitstain, and I hope he died as one.

replies 278Aug 29, 2017 10:26 PM +00:00

He died very happily(for us) a suicide.

He had such a long career of embezzlement, lying, and forgery all other Hollywood agents and producers look like pikers.

And considering all this was known for a very long time by everyone in the industry his victims deserved to be ripped off by him.

replies 279Aug 30, 2017 1:05 AM +00:00

That asshat who analyzes Judy's vocal ability upthread needs to...wait for it.... die in a grease fire.

replies 280Aug 30, 2017 4:53 AM +00:00

I recently saw an interview where Mel Brooks was speaking of Begelman in glowing terms. I thought "What the fuck, Mel?"

R275 I totally agree about The Man That Got Away. I could tear up every time I see her sing it. She feels every second of it, and her plaintive wail happens to be exquisite. And Rock A Bye Your Baby or When the Sun Comes Out are just vocal powerhouses, and can lift you out the the blues in a second.

The fact that she was robbed of the money from the CBS shows is such a tragedy. Its those tapes that have been viewed millions of times on YouTube, and comforted and entertained us for years on end.

replies 281Aug 30, 2017 5:18 AM +00:00

R280, Why? Did you read what they wrote? It was very complimentary.

replies 282Aug 30, 2017 8:01 AM +00:00

Not really, R282. The problem with the Analyst is he thinks the rules of classical music apply somehow to people like Garland. Ironically, the earliest Judy roles were meant to highlight that difference, and her swinging qualities.

via YouTube Capture Judy Garland gets expelled from school.
--Mr. Mendelssohn
replies 283Aug 30, 2017 8:15 AM +00:00

And I can't post that without posting this:

--Mr. Mendelssohn
replies 284Aug 30, 2017 8:18 AM +00:00

Yes. It's rather silly to talk about a pop singer "only" having over two octaves. A two and a half octave vocal range is fine for most musical theatre roles, never mind "popular music".

replies 285Aug 30, 2017 8:31 AM +00:00

Looking around the internet even frickin Taylor Swift has a 2 octave range. Big deal.

replies 286Aug 30, 2017 8:47 AM +00:00

Mama wash the greatesht shtar! *hic*

--Lizsha with a Zshee
replies 287Aug 30, 2017 11:59 AM +00:00

R274 that is absolutely dreadful and dire. Most artists really don't have time and a head to make sense of their finances and booze and dolls compound the vulnerability. I mean, fuck that shit.

replies 288Aug 30, 2017 12:27 PM +00:00

Having talent doesn't excuse being stupid. She couldn't add and subtract?

replies 289Aug 30, 2017 4:01 PM +00:00

Supposedly Garland was some sort of mathematical genius. She also looking at a musical number once would know immediately all the choreography.

Doesn't mean she was smart with money or with the men who handled her finances.

replies 290Aug 30, 2017 6:25 PM +00:00

Garland grew up having everything handled for her by Metro and by her mother or Vincent Minnelli. Once she left Metro, she was easy prey for the greedy, the dishonest, the grifters.

replies 291Aug 30, 2017 9:28 PM +00:00

Love that number, R284 (boy she was cute... lesbian here...) Anyway when I first heard Mendelssohn's Lieder Ohne Wörter, it was fun to recognise the song.

replies 292Aug 30, 2017 10:15 PM +00:00

Judy Garland is quite possibly the greatest talent ever to come out of Hollywood.

replies 293Aug 31, 2017 10:35 PM +00:00

Judy was a great artist practically from day one. The Wizard of Oz is an astonishing performance from a 16 yr old.

replies 294Sep 1, 2017 9:36 AM +00:00

How I adore Swanee and Rock A Bye Your Baby. I'm a liberal who hates Trump, but I'm wondering if these so are so un-PC at this point to be seen as problematic. They are two of the greatest American songs ever written.

replies 295Sep 1, 2017 9:55 AM +00:00

Judy was also a great raconteur. He story about Marlene Dietrich is deliciously bitchy.

replies 296Sep 1, 2017 6:08 PM +00:00

She was very funny. She and Paar were great together.

The 3 hams from WOZ were still alive when she told that funny story about them. I wonder what they thought of that.

replies 297Sep 1, 2017 6:24 PM +00:00

r297: Haley was very hurt. He was quoted in the Harmetz book on "The Making of The wizard of Oz" saying something about it.

r284: I love EVERYBODY SING. It's great silly fun and its nice to see a frisky, conniving Judy. Her Rooney movies are often excuses for her to be a sad poor-me doormat.

replies 298Sep 1, 2017 9:20 PM +00:00

omg that Dietrich story lol. how did Judy get away with that? she and Dietrich were friends at one time.

replies 299Sep 1, 2017 10:10 PM +00:00

You don't let being friends keep you from telling a great story at their expense.

replies 300Sep 2, 2017 2:12 AM +00:00

R294, I would contend that TWOO was the high point of her career, vocally and performance-wise, and I don't mean that as a knock on the rest of her career.

replies 301Sep 2, 2017 2:22 AM +00:00

Dietrich must've been furious with Garland for telling that story. She had no sense of humor about herself.

replies 302Sep 2, 2017 2:25 AM +00:00

R300 Judy mostly made up that story, patched together from the things her drunk gay drinking buddies said all the time about Dietrich's applause albums.

replies 303Sep 2, 2017 2:50 AM +00:00

Judy was a brilliant, intuitive woman - she knew that when you tell a story, it is more important to be entertaining than it is to be accurate.

replies 304Sep 2, 2017 3:26 AM +00:00

Lucille Ball continually praised her writers. She could act what they wrote for her, and she famously used to say, "I don't think funny."

Lucy also said, "You want to know the funniest woman in Hollywood? Judy Garland."

replies 305Sep 2, 2017 7:27 AM +00:00

Everybody who knew her says Judy was hilarious and a highly prized guest at parties.

replies 306Sep 2, 2017 9:19 AM +00:00

I completely believe Lucy. I think Judy must have been hysterical in private. But she never really thought about telling those stories in a public forum. If you watch the two Paar appearances, he really drags them out of her.

The Dietrich story does seems like it was worked on with a comedy writer, but I don't think it was. I think with all those years in vaudeville, on the stage, and in movies, she had an innate sense of what the listener (or an audience) would respond to. Her timing on "I don't mean this HARSHly..." and the "what are we gonna say? 'Naaah we don't wanna hear your record'" is quite brilliant.

She had a very Irish sense of humor.

When my interview with Elaine Stritch aired on "So What Else Is News?" -- my Air America Radio show back in the day -- someone wrote me saying I laughed ...
replies 307Sep 2, 2017 9:49 AM +00:00

We like the one she did with Jose Iturbe, brilliant

--Erna (world's number one Judy fan)
replies 308Sep 2, 2017 10:19 AM +00:00

When she says, 'I hope there isn't another side' she very subtly gets Coward's delivery and timing.


replies 309Sep 2, 2017 11:25 AM +00:00

God Judy is the funniest.

replies 310Sep 2, 2017 11:39 AM +00:00

Whatever happened to the Punchy Players? They did a whole slew of great Judy-Ann Miller-Liza videos but their best is still Judy's Cream of Wheat.

Breakfast time parody with Judy Garland and Liza Minnelli. This skit is intended as a humorous celebration of Judy, Liza, and Cream of Wheat. Facebook fan pa...
replies 311Sep 2, 2017 12:41 PM +00:00

I miss the Punchy Players too! I don't know why they stopped.

--Ann Miller's Glamour
replies 312Sep 2, 2017 1:59 PM +00:00

There have been better Carnegie Hall performances.

Compositor: Bach, Johann Sebastian [Eisenach, Alemanha, 21/03/1685 - Leipzig, Alemanha, 28/07/1750] Compositor: Schumann, Robert Alexander (Zwickau, Alemanh...
replies 313Sep 2, 2017 2:05 PM +00:00

"Lucy also said, "You want to know the funniest woman in Hollywood? Judy Garland."

Gary Morton advised her against saying that.....

--And now he's dead.
replies 314Sep 2, 2017 2:14 PM +00:00

Judy and Barbra............

replies 315Sep 2, 2017 2:43 PM +00:00

I think their best is the Mary Poppins screen tests with Garland doing a medley of Poppins tunes. Pretty uncanny right down to the orchestral arrangements.

They really hit it out of the park with that one. It's also worth it to hear Audrey Hepburn say Admiral Boom.

replies 316Sep 2, 2017 3:39 PM +00:00

I wonder if it bothered Fanny Brice that Snooks is what she was best known for, after years and years of being considered a brilliant comic.

replies 317Sep 2, 2017 7:55 PM +00:00

Barbra never did Snooks in either movie, did she?

replies 318Sep 2, 2017 7:56 PM +00:00

There is a scene in FG that suggests Baby Snooks.

replies 319Sep 2, 2017 9:23 PM +00:00

A Snooks routine was cut from FUNNY see Brice still in her Snooks costume being questioned by a group of reporters about Nick.

At the end of FUNNY LADY, Barbra-Brice is doing a Snooks routine in a studio for a radio show.

replies 320Sep 3, 2017 1:30 AM +00:00

Aunt Fanny's Ice Cream.....

Judy, Julie, and Lucy visit the ice cream parlor and meet some familiar faces on their day out. Voices of Julie, Judy, Lucille, and Ann performed by Jeff Mar...
replies 321Sep 3, 2017 9:39 AM +00:00

R321 great great great

replies 322Sep 3, 2017 10:26 AM +00:00

Judy was a beautiful child and preteen; her face and eyes are so arresting. Unfortunately, with a few exceptions, she never benefitted from any of the costumers, wardrobe and hair people she worked with. She was tiny, with great legs, but busty. Early on, Louis B Mayer perceived her not only as fat, but as the "pal" who never gets the guy. She's very beautiful in some of the Andy Hardy films, but is dressed to look younger, taking a back seat to Ann Rutherford and Lana Turner. She gets the shittiest costumes in ZIEGFELD GIRL, despite the beauty of all the other costumes in that film; and let's not even talk about SUMMER STOCK, where she actually had to wear COVERALLS! Oddly enough, she looked her best in this same film, in the GET HAPPY getup: the short jacket showed off her legs and the hat helped cover that hair. She was never well served by those tight curls and short 50s hairstyles. She looked good in jackets and with longer, more loosely curled hair, which a lot of her peers had, like Lana Turner, Hedy Lamarr, etc. Strange how one man's early perception of her basically molded her entire film career (not to mention her personal life and physical health). She was a good actress, and it's a shame she was never offered more straight drama or comedic roles.

But as a vocal artist she really had no peer. Even Streisand, with the benefit of many more years of recording, IMO, does not eclipse Judy's vocal artistry. Dissect her technical aspects of her voice all you want, but IMO her voice sort of parallels her physical beauty: while certainly not traditional in any way, it is unique and interesting in its own way.

I'm rambling, aren't I? Sorry - just polished off a little something I found in my desk drawer. But I as a superfan, enjoy talking about all things Judy. We are a vanishing breed.

replies 323Sep 3, 2017 11:49 AM +00:00

We don't want to know what you're polishing off, r323!

replies 324Sep 3, 2017 1:42 PM +00:00

R315 Jesus Christ, Fanny Brice was an annoying ham.

replies 325Sep 3, 2017 2:07 PM +00:00

Fanny Brice is terrific in her one scene in Ziegfeld Follies with of all people in a comic sketch Hume Cronyn.

replies 326Sep 3, 2017 2:12 PM +00:00

r323 I love you. More, please! What's your take on early '60's Judy?

replies 327Sep 3, 2017 4:19 PM +00:00

Thank you, R323. Obviously the early 60s included the Sid Luft years (married in '52, divorced by '65). This was the longest marriage she had, although in the long run I think it did her far more harm than good. She had an abortion in 1951, then two pregnancies (Lorna in 1952, Joey in 1955). During this time she went through the whole STAR IS BORN saga, and the heartbreaking Oscar loss, which I think really hurt her deeply. By 1959 she was fat, seriously ill with hepatitis, and was told by doctors that not only would she never sing again, but that she could be dead in six months.

However, she clearly had rebounded by the Carnegie Hall concert, which was April 1961, slimmed down and in glorious voice. I think she was clearly at her peak that night, and things began to slowly erode from there. She made JUDGMENT AT NUREMBURG in 1961, while still heavy, and A CHILD IS WAITING in 1963, which would be her final film. The TV show, which ran one season, 1963-64, was a total disaster. It was scheduled opposite BONANZA, the most popular show in the country at the time. The show was constantly being revamped, and she was clearly uncomfortable doing anything but singing. It didn't help that her guest stars tended to be throwbacks from her earlier days, like Ray Bolger and Donald O'Connor, although there was the one Streisand appearance. She was close to JFK and was devastated by his death; fights with the network and with Luft, divorcing him in 1965. I think the TV show followed by the divorce exhausted her personally, financially and professionally. She had 3 kids, although Liza flew the coop the first chance she got. She was at loose ends, and vulnerable to VERY bad management.

Judy did not seem to transition easily into the '60s zeitgeist, with the exception of taking drugs. It's a shame she did not simply continue recording the way Sinatra did - bad, bad management. Also a shame she did not do more film work or transition into character roles that did not require her to sing and dance. I think by '64-'65 she had had it, while only in her early 40s. Is there any point in mentioning her failure as Helen Lawson in VALLEY OF THE DOLLS in '67?

I once saw Jackie Cooper on some documentary talking wistfully about her last years and early death, saying that if only there had been more rehabs and openness about drug addiction back then, that she might have gotten clean and healthy, resumed her career in some way and earned the respect her talent demanded. But the '60s weren't exactly the best time to do that, and circumstances ate her alive at 47. I love her anyway; it is remarkable that she had the career she did have. I think it would please her to know that she is still venerated by so many of us.

replies 328Sep 3, 2017 7:40 PM +00:00

Liza and Lorna said the same thing Cooper did in various interviews, Lorna especially. Rehab as we know it today did not exist back then but if it did Judy would've had a chance at recovery. If wasn't until a decade or more after her death that effective treatment for addiction became common.

replies 329Sep 3, 2017 8:04 PM +00:00

The Judy Garland Show has since been re-evaluated. What did not work then was the network's insistence that they 'bring her down a notch' and try to make her into June Allyson. Judy was never that and the Jerry Van Dyke bits, where he calls her a little old lady and insults her, are painful to watch. But all the filmed musical numbers are, almost without exception, treasures. She did some great, great singing on that show. It gave us the greatest extant version of "A Cottage for Sale" for one absolutely stunning moment of quiet simplicity that is absolutely heartbreaking. Then she turn around and powerhouse her way through "As Long As He Needs Me" and be equally stunning. She sang that number twice on the show, and both times are great. The differences between them are fascinating. Her Come Rain or Come Shine which was posted above is, I think, the best singing of that song she ever did.

replies 330Sep 3, 2017 9:35 PM +00:00

I recently turned 47 myself, and I'm not sure how much longer I want to go on.

But when I listen to Judy, all that sorrow and pain goes away, for a the that time.

replies 331Sep 3, 2017 9:56 PM +00:00

47 is nothing.

Try the utter empty horror of 60 when no matter how hard you've tried that essential spark of luck isn't there.

Judy will make you even sadder.

Like why the fuck was I ever born to experience such anguish, pain and exhaustion. Why was anybody?

replies 332Sep 4, 2017 1:09 AM +00:00

Among the many problems with the Judy Garland show is the relaxed, engaging and funny lady of the Pair interviews is seldom seen. She seems uncomfortable and on-edge for a lot of the non-singing moments, and I think American audiences could sense it and were uncomfortable watching it.

replies 333Sep 4, 2017 1:21 AM +00:00

Jack Paar made her comfortable and taken care of. There was no one like that on her TV series. She was the one in charge on screen but with other people puling her down off screen.

R328, I COULD GO ON SINGING was her final film.

When Judy was in decent health, her voice was fine. Listen to her ease and power singing those four Harold Arlen songs at that November 1968 Lincoln Center tribute.

Who knows if more effective drug treatment would have helped Judy? It's possible, but it didn't work so well for Liza.

replies 334Sep 4, 2017 1:30 AM +00:00

Oops, you're right. My bad.

And to you, my friend at R332: Forget your troubles, c'mon, GET HAPPY!

replies 335Sep 4, 2017 7:15 AM +00:00

I'm in my 70s, R332, and I share your feelings of hopelessness. Listening to wonderful music and seeing wonderful performances (including Judy's) helps me.

replies 336Sep 4, 2017 9:18 AM +00:00

In 1959 at the height of her health problems she was 37 years old.

After years of pills (since childhood) and drinking, even with the best rehab, I doubt that you can ever truly recover your health. I would imagine that your brain, nerves and liver would be irreparably damaged.

replies 337Sep 4, 2017 12:29 PM +00:00

She could have been save in the 40's, had MGM agreed to time off. They wouldn't.

replies 338Sep 4, 2017 8:33 PM +00:00

She had a contract and I believe she was MGM's most successful money making star. She couldn't keep up the pace. Who could?

When TWOO opened at the Capitol theater where the Gershwin now is she was doing 5 shows a day 7days a week between movie showings.

How does even a teenager keep that up without some 'help'? Especially someone so emotionally fragile at such a young age. And I'm sure having a gay father who was caught in a scandal where the family had to leave town and a gorgon mother did not help matters. Desperately needing the love of gay men certainly seems to have been a refrain throughout her life. Even Liza. I wonder why.

replies 339Sep 5, 2017 12:04 AM +00:00

A Star Is Born was produced by Sid and Judy's production company, Transcona. They counted on Judy's bankability for the film's success and to bankroll their future together. As it turned out, the film lost money. This must have shaken Judy's confidence in herself as a movie star to the core. And when she lost the Oscar, she became convinced that Hollywood hated her as well. It's no wonder that the last half of the 50's were a dismal time for Judy, or that she got fat, or that she became ill. She was by all accounts seriously depressed.

replies 340Sep 5, 2017 8:19 AM +00:00

Judy's Carnegie Hall performance is pure magic - no idea how she did it. Was Dr. Feelgood backstage?

Newer technologies applied to the original recording actually made the quality much better over time which is a treat. I still like to blast this album throughout the house as I vacuum and straighten up. Makes cleaning a pleasure.

replies 341Sep 5, 2017 8:23 AM +00:00
A Star Is Born was produced by Sid and Judy's production company, Transcona. They counted on Judy's bankability for the film's success and to bankroll their future together. As it turned out, the film lost money.

It should have. I know this is DL blasphemy, but I think A Star is Born is an awful film. She is far too old and frumpy to play an ingenue. And the "Born in the Trump" vanity in the middle totally derails what was left of the story after it was stuck in a Vitamix by the editors.

--Babe Paley
replies 342Sep 5, 2017 8:31 AM +00:00

r342 take your Metamucil and shut the fuck up. It's a very flawed film, but gorgeous nonetheless.

replies 343Sep 5, 2017 10:28 AM +00:00

It's a big unwieldy mess. Kind of like a Verdi French grand opera.

And glorious just the same.

replies 344Sep 5, 2017 10:42 AM +00:00

Judy fans are so touchy!

replies 345Sep 5, 2017 10:42 AM +00:00

R345, Judy fans are very intelligent, sensitive people. We get her. We appreciate her.

replies 346Sep 5, 2017 11:01 AM +00:00

How many big Broadway stars were lookers? A miniscule amount. The Ginger Rogers types were whisked away to Hollywood where they really made their names, while the Ethel Mermans and John Raitts came back to New York by return post.

replies 347Sep 5, 2017 11:06 AM +00:00

No doubt a great night and she was one of a kind. But there have been one or two others since- who generate the same kind of superlatives from peers. Judy had the (tragic) advantage somewhat like Monroe, Dean etc of dying young and of course tragically. If she had been healthy I am not so sure the myth would be quite the same- she would be more or less a great star- maybe of much longer duration, like Streisand or Sinatra (who I did not like myself).

This album is something else. I don't even think she is necessarily in her best voice. But the excitement of the night is caught and all the great songs are here. And do they get any better?

replies 348Sep 5, 2017 11:14 AM +00:00

Raitt was good looking but has zero impact on film for some reason.

They missed a big opportunity not casting somebody like Keel in the role. Day pretty much has to do all the heavy lifting.

replies 349Sep 5, 2017 11:15 AM +00:00

R321 thanks for that. Broderick as a bonus! Yum.

replies 350Sep 5, 2017 11:22 AM +00:00

My problem with A STAR IS BORN is Mason. He just comes off as too smart and strong to be believable as a shattered has-been.

As magnificent as "Born in a Trunk" is, it seems like a thrilling 11-O'clock number stuck in the middle with hours to go. None of the latter numbers, as terrific as they are have that impact.

That said, "Its A New World" is one of Garlands greatest moments.

replies 351Sep 5, 2017 1:56 PM +00:00

r351 agreed that Trunk is misplaced and somewhat driven by Judy's vanity.

replies 352Sep 5, 2017 2:13 PM +00:00

Agreed that Keel had it all over Raitt.

--Howard Keel
replies 353Sep 5, 2017 2:48 PM +00:00

Except for the singing.

replies 354Sep 5, 2017 4:20 PM +00:00

I love Britney's tuned or not I just love it. Judy is a master. Fuck Gaga Tho. Too much tuna

replies 355Sep 5, 2017 4:47 PM +00:00

The 2007 joke is wack as fuck. Britney is still out there making hits and money and Gaga is singing about her aunt. Nobody cares about These new bitches. Flash in the pan. Stop.

replies 356Sep 5, 2017 4:54 PM +00:00

I love Judy because she touches my heart and soul. I don't know how or why, and I don't care if it's dated or laughable or whether that makes me dated and/or laughable, either. She had IT and I'm so glad we had her.

--Gay Woman; yes, women can also be called "Mary"
replies 357Sep 5, 2017 5:17 PM +00:00

A Star Is Born is a woman's picture--that's what they called them in the 50's. Douglas Sirk was a master at making them. And so was Cukor That's what he was going for and had the picture not been wrested from his hands, re-edited and the tedious BIAT sequence added, it would have been a great film.

replies 358Sep 5, 2017 8:57 PM +00:00

R358 is a communist.

--Jack Warner
replies 359Sep 5, 2017 9:09 PM +00:00

Liza and Lorna did a great interview together about Momma.

Great Documentary! It aired in 2004 only in the UK! Lorna and Liza talk about life growing up and being the daughters of the great Judy Garland. As sisters, ...
replies 360Sep 6, 2017 3:01 AM +00:00

Fascinating interview. I've never seen them together being so chummy like that. Or talking about Judy. Why does Liza always act as if she is nothing like Judy when in fact she is very much like Judy?

replies 361Sep 6, 2017 10:34 PM +00:00

Liza seems to be about 20 IQ points lower than Judy, who was very smart in many different ways one can be smart.

replies 362Sep 6, 2017 11:05 PM +00:00

The thing with Liza is that her entire universe is show biz and when she communicates, everyone feels like her references are from the show-biz world view. Judy was all show biz but she communicated from a human world view which is why she connected/connects with people so intimately as an artist.

replies 363Sep 6, 2017 11:07 PM +00:00

Interesting that Lorna was the caretaker with Judy, I suspect that seeing as how Liza is now living out west that she's probably her sister's as well.

replies 364Sep 6, 2017 11:34 PM +00:00

I like Rufus but could never get into his appropriation of Judy at Carnegie Hall. He's a showman but a different kind of showman and, as much as he clearly admires her, couldn't deliver vocally. Listening to him drawl through that set list wasn't very engaging.

replies 365Sep 7, 2017 3:07 AM +00:00

I really have never liked Liza that's why I must be the only person on the planet who doesn't like Cabaret. And then you've got a nihilistic Fosse so you've got a tedious pretentious art musical. Shit.

Love the obc and the original opening on the Tonys.

Certainly in the top ten original Broadway productions to see if I could go back in time.

Liza though is very funny in that Christmas bit she does with Cyril. He must have been like 'What is that poor girl ON?'

replies 366Sep 7, 2017 3:28 AM +00:00

The US military should air-drop thousands of Judy's Carnegie Hall Album over the Muslim countries in the Middle East..

It just might convert them.

replies 367Sep 7, 2017 4:07 AM +00:00

Convert them to what?

Broadway show queens?

replies 368Sep 7, 2017 6:10 AM +00:00

R368, Lol. It'd be easy to convert their robes to caftans

replies 369Sep 7, 2017 8:52 AM +00:00

r363: That is an extremely astute observation. Thank you for that.

replies 370Sep 7, 2017 9:11 AM +00:00

Judy is forever.

replies 371Sep 8, 2017 10:27 PM +00:00

The heartbeat in Judy's vibrato just grabs you by the balls. She is one of a kind.

replies 372Sep 10, 2017 1:56 PM +00:00

r371 she is forever! I love that sentiment.

replies 373Sep 10, 2017 2:30 PM +00:00

"Judy Garland As A Force Of Nature" by Camille Paglia

replies 374Sep 10, 2017 2:34 PM +00:00

That's a fascinating article. I'd never read it.

replies 375Sep 10, 2017 9:11 PM +00:00


"Follies of God" by James Grissom (Alfred A. Knopf)
replies 376Sep 10, 2017 9:14 PM +00:00

That's an interesting way to look at it. Everyone who saw her live speaks of her as if it was an overwhelming experience.

replies 377Sep 10, 2017 9:38 PM +00:00

It's a shame the Carnegie Hall concert wasn't filmed. Dammit, that should've happened!

replies 378Sep 11, 2017 3:07 AM +00:00

Best album in recording history. Period.

replies 379Sep 11, 2017 9:42 AM +00:00

I keep hoping that film will pop up from somewhere, that maybe some crazed collector has had it all along, buried in his basement, not allowing anyone else to see it.

replies 380Sep 11, 2017 3:38 PM +00:00

r379, I agree.

replies 381Sep 11, 2017 3:53 PM +00:00

When I lived in NYC, every once in a while I'd turn out the lights and listen to this complete concert, imagining myself in the audience. It was quite a trip. Judy really is spectacular.

replies 382Sep 11, 2017 9:52 PM +00:00

When you watch Judy as a child---pre OZ--it's interesting how sure of herself she seems, and strong. Slowly that begins to change as she gets older until ten years later, around HARVEY GIRLS, she's already a jittery mess. So sad.

replies 383Sep 13, 2017 7:05 AM +00:00

This NYT article is from April 2001, right after the re-mastered Judy at Carnegie Hall 40th Anniversary CD was released. It was written by Douglas McGrath (who also happened to co-write the Bullets Over Broadway screenplay with Woody Allen in 1994).

He describes it as "...the all-time master class."

Offsite Link
replies 384Sep 13, 2017 9:40 AM +00:00

Your link is no good, R384, could you find a different one?

Because you're divine!

replies 385Sep 13, 2017 3:49 PM +00:00

Do we prefer the Capitol 2001 or the DCC?

replies 386Sep 13, 2017 3:55 PM +00:00

The Capitol 2001. The DCC is very harsh and listening to it with headphones was difficult.

replies 387Sep 13, 2017 4:25 PM +00:00

Thanks R384 I can't wait to see you again're divine.

I thought the link might be bad -- weird, but apparently you can't post a link with more than 255 characters, DL style. Anyway...yada yada. Google article. It's worth it.

...and she's not chubby, she's not plump, she's fat!

R386 Capitol 2001 is the definite preference!

--Oh Pea
replies 388Sep 13, 2017 4:27 PM +00:00

Interesting. I don't find the DCC harsh at all. I like the more natural sound - much less reverb. And the audience are never competing with those onstage. Judy's voice could perhaps do with being a litlle more "in the mix" but that's quibbling.

replies 389Sep 13, 2017 4:31 PM +00:00

I love Capitol 2001 recording -- I get a total rush from the audience's reaction.

replies 390Sep 13, 2017 4:45 PM +00:00

op gayest post in Datalounge history.

Who is this Dinosaur? God elders are utterly embarrassing. Give me some decent lyrics and an indie rock band over this Broadway, musical gay as hell elder nonsense.

replies 391Sep 13, 2017 4:54 PM +00:00

Cry me a fucking river R332. Joey, stay away from the stove. God dammit Liza, is that another cigarette burn in my carpet?

--Lorna L.
replies 392Sep 13, 2017 6:02 PM +00:00
I wonder if it bothered Fanny Brice that Snooks is what she was best known for, after years and years of being considered a brilliant comic.

Gawd, I know Brice was popular as fuck, but that number in "Everybody Sing" is PAINFUL. I am DL's biggest Judy fan, but even her being in it won't make me enjoy it. My eighty year-old mom tells me she loved the Baby Snooks character on the radio as a kid, so I guess it was a character who worked only on radio.

I had no idea people didn't like the "Born in a Trunk" sequence in ASiB! I LOVE it! It ends with "Swanee" which I love and all of the songs in it are fun! We are supposed to see just WHY Vicky Lester is a huge star. It ends with that iconic scene of Judy sitting on the stage singing "In PO-cotello EYYYE-DAAAAAAAH-HOOOOOOOOO" crescendo!!! Magic!

"A Star is Born" was butchered by Warner's, but the 180 minute roadshow edit received excellent reviews and the fact is, it is a lavish melodrama with a fun score and JUDY in EVERY frame! I think it is more that the then traditional melodrama style is harder for people today to enjoy, but I love it. It was the second most expensive film made by Hollywood after "Gone With the Wind", and that's why it didn't break even. It's an endlessly entertaining film, and I love enjoying how wonderfully produced it is.

--First Night Fanny
replies 393Sep 13, 2017 8:55 PM +00:00

FNF, Even in 1938, critics who were big Brice fans thought "Why? Because!" was a lousy number, totally unworthy of Fanny (and certainly Judy).

Fanny and Judy originally were slated for a swing "Russian Dolly Sisters" number that is lost. Stills of Judy in Russian costume survive, and one was used on the VHS cover of EVERYBODY SING!
--Little Lord Fauntleroy
replies 394Sep 14, 2017 4:28 AM +00:00

threads like this one are such treasures. Love the posts about Fanny Brice/AsiB.

--<3 you all, except R391 and friends
replies 395Sep 14, 2017 4:52 AM +00:00

Star is Born was never a road show film.

Opened on Broadway at both the Victoria and Paramount neither road show houses.

Continuous performances from day 1 after opening night which was a problem and caused the cuts. Exhibitors couldn't get enough showings in a day.

replies 396Sep 14, 2017 4:54 AM +00:00
threads like this one are such treasures.

All this and Corelle too.

It's like Christmas!

replies 397Sep 14, 2017 7:05 AM +00:00

Won't SOMEONE send a filthy flannel shirt to the (tone-deaf, ageist and homophobic) poster at R391?!?

replies 398Sep 14, 2017 10:19 AM +00:00

I found a link that works for [R384]'s post: "Acting as She Sings, She Makes Each Song a Drama" by Douglas McGrath:

Douglas McGrath hails new CD of July Garland's 1961 Carnegie Hall performance as the most conclusive document of her talent and a master class for actors; photo (M)
--Gay Woman
replies 399Sep 14, 2017 1:54 PM +00:00

Again, R399, you're divine.

--And so chic I can hardly stand it!
replies 400Sep 14, 2017 1:56 PM +00:00

Why, thank you, [R400]! Just for that, I'll sing 'em all and we can stay all night!

--Gay Woman
replies 401Sep 14, 2017 4:32 PM +00:00

None of the CDs have the sound quality of the original LP.

replies 402Sep 14, 2017 9:03 PM +00:00

Eh... aren't there euro public domain releases that are straight from the LP? The mono version, I think. Ticket stub cover.

replies 403Sep 14, 2017 9:16 PM +00:00

that's a fantastic article, r399

replies 404Sep 14, 2017 9:28 PM +00:00

Divine and soulful.

replies 405Sep 16, 2017 8:44 AM +00:00

I listened to the Carnegie Hall album decades ago as a young men. Because of this thread I decided to listen to it again after all this time.

OMG. "Come Rain or Come Shine"! It is insane what she does with that song. It is a complete reinterpretation of the lyrics and is so right. It left me breathless.

replies 406Sep 16, 2017 9:23 AM +00:00

Mama wash the world'sh greatesht shinger and entertainer. *hic*

replies 407Sep 16, 2017 9:57 AM +00:00

That CROCS arrangement by Nelson Riddle was really history making, as much as his I've Got You Under My Skin arrangement was for Sinatra. And Garland makes the most of it.

replies 408Sep 16, 2017 10:18 AM +00:00

Rosemary Clooney said that Nelson Riddle wrote that arrangement for her.

replies 409Sep 16, 2017 11:49 AM +00:00

Rosemary Clooney should shut the fuck up.

--She has.
replies 410Sep 16, 2017 3:09 PM +00:00

Rosemary Clooney was a great singer and her recording of "Come Rain or Come Shine" has pretty much the same Nelson Riddle arrangement as Judy Garland.

replies 411Sep 16, 2017 4:00 PM +00:00

But Judy never pushed paper towels.

replies 412Sep 16, 2017 4:14 PM +00:00

No, Judy pushed Benzedrine.

replies 413Sep 16, 2017 4:39 PM +00:00

The arrangement is similar although Judy's is faster and more frenetic while Rosemary's is smoother and slower. But the bones are the same. Riddle admitted he took Clooney's arrangement and re-arranged it for Judy to use because he was pressed for time.

replies 414Sep 16, 2017 8:52 PM +00:00

I wish Judy hadn't had all her money stolen/spent by a succession of leeches and thieves. Her life might have been much easier.

replies 415Sep 17, 2017 9:10 PM +00:00

It would have been nice if Judy had done a couple of newer songs for the Carnegie Hall concert.

She does songs the she introduced as well as other classics from the 30s and 40s but nothing contemporary. I guess the latest was "The Man That Got away" but that was 1954.

replies 416Sep 17, 2017 11:05 PM +00:00

Thats a wonderful article, but I'm not sure I agree with the author about "San Francisco" and "Come Rain or Come Shine" as ultimately being about fucking. ' Though Judy did enjoy it, bless her. There is a late '40s quote from her (I think it was about Sinatra): "All he wants are blowjobs. That's all very well and good, but a girl's gotta get fucked once in a while!"

replies 417Sep 18, 2017 12:43 AM +00:00

For me, the biggest problem with "A Star Is Born" was the casting of James Mason. Don't get me wrong, he's a fine actor and gives a good performance. But there is absolutely no chemistry between him and Judy. Zero. It would have been interesting to see, perhaps, Jimmy Stewart cast against type as an alcoholic has-been. Certainly would have made the character more sympathetic. Or Clark Gable. Judy wanted Cary Grant, who I love, but I'm not at all sure how that would have worked out. I think Grant was probably wise to pass on it.

replies 418Sep 18, 2017 8:45 AM +00:00

Mickey Rooney?

replies 419Sep 18, 2017 10:19 AM +00:00

You know, at first I thought that was a joke post, but the more I think about it, Mickey Rooney in 1954 would have been fascinating casting.

replies 420Sep 18, 2017 8:46 PM +00:00

Mickey Rooney would have been perfect.

replies 421Sep 18, 2017 10:52 PM +00:00

A Star Is Born would have been a better film if it had been made at MGM.

replies 422Sep 21, 2017 8:30 AM +00:00

It would have loved to have seen Jack Carson instead of Mason. Jack Carson was usually "the stars best friend", but he could do anything. He's a much warmer actor than Mason as well.

r422: i see your point...but we wouldn't have those great Ray Heindorf arrangements.

replies 423Sep 21, 2017 9:07 AM +00:00

Judy Garland. No one has come close to her on-stage performances. If so, who?

replies 424Sep 21, 2017 1:52 PM +00:00

I wike bwue.

replies 425Sep 21, 2017 1:54 PM +00:00

No comment from Lorna?

replies 426Sep 21, 2017 2:17 PM +00:00

Still raped over here, buddy boy.

replies 427Sep 21, 2017 5:11 PM +00:00

The Man That Got Away is such a thrilling performance in ASIB. Gotta hand it to Cukor for the way he filmed that.

replies 428Sep 21, 2017 6:21 PM +00:00

I was molested.

--The Real Lorna
replies 429Sep 22, 2017 12:26 PM +00:00

"The Man That Got Away" is more thrilling for me to listen to than to watch. The film shows all the trademark Judyisms (the othat became drag queen staples it kind of takes me out of the scene. And her hair and dress are hideous (she's much more attractively styled and dressed in the alternate versions) . Maybe Cukor wanted her to look 'pre-glamorized'?

replies 430Sep 22, 2017 2:47 PM +00:00

"The Man That Got Away" is more thrilling for me to listen to than to watch. The film shows all the trademark Judyisms (the expressive, theatrical hand and arm gestures) that became drag queen staples it kind of takes me out of the scene. And her hair and dress are hideous (she's much more attractively styled and dressed in the alternate versions) . Maybe Cukor wanted her to look 'pre-glamorized'?

replies 431Sep 22, 2017 2:48 PM +00:00

I couldn't disagree more. I think Judy looks quite frumpy in the alternate takes and that Cukor was wise to reshoot it with new coloring, new costumes and a trimmer Judy. The whole scene, shot in one long take, is breathtaking.

replies 432Sep 24, 2017 4:56 PM +00:00

Are the ASIB tracks only available on CD in stereo?

replies 433Sep 25, 2017 5:56 AM +00:00

This CD has the monaural tracks from the LP:

Film Musicals: a Star Is Born
replies 434Sep 25, 2017 6:28 AM +00:00
"The Man That Got Away" is more thrilling for me to listen to than to watch. The film shows all the trademark Judyisms (the othat became drag queen staples it kind of takes me out of the scene. And her hair and dress are hideous (she's much more attractively styled and dressed in the alternate versions) . Maybe Cukor wanted her to look 'pre-glamorized'?

I have to say, I agree.

Although it would not have been correct for the film, I much prefer Judy's performance of the number on her TV show.

There's much more depth in her interpretation, and her look is très chic.

The song becomes a stand-alone theatre piece, a dramatic monologue.

From "The Judy Garland Show", 1962.
replies 435Sep 25, 2017 6:29 AM +00:00

WOW! I agree with you. Gut-punching powerful. Who directed that? It was genius to put the camera on Judy's expressive face for a tight close-up and specifically control her by-now trademark hand-gestures and have her walk away into darkness at its close.

Thank you very much for that.

replies 436Sep 25, 2017 7:09 AM +00:00

I studied acting with Uta Hagan. She considered Judy Garland among the greatest actors well as Frank Sinatra and Lucille Ball (during the "I love Lucy" era). Both Garland and Sinatra are mentioned in her book "Respect for Acting".

replies 437Sep 25, 2017 7:30 AM +00:00

Orson Welles called Lucille Ball "Hollywood's greatest actress" during the ILL years.

replies 438Sep 25, 2017 8:16 AM +00:00

Just watch Judy's performance of A Cottage For Sale if you want to see brilliant acting.

replies 439Sep 25, 2017 8:45 AM +00:00

We know Judy's best musical is TWOO and the next best is MMISL. But what is the third best? If you were going to rank Judy's musicals from 1-10, what would go where? Personal preference for me, I think, would be Easter Parade 3rd.

replies 440Sep 25, 2017 8:36 PM +00:00

1. MMISL 2-The Pirate 3- Easter Parade 4- Harvey Girls 5- ASIB 6- (n the Good Old Summertime 7-Babes in Arms 8-Summer Stock 9-TWOO 10-ICGOS (Not technically a musical, I know)

replies 441Sep 26, 2017 4:45 AM +00:00

The Wizard of Oz at 9? Even below "Summer Stock"?

We all hope you're not serious.

replies 442Sep 26, 2017 7:02 AM +00:00

1) Wizard of Oz 2) Meet Me In St Louis 3) Easter Parade 4) A Star Is Born 5) Babes In Arms 6) In The Good Old Summertime 7) The Harvey Girls 8) Summer Stock 9) The Pirate 10) Girl Crazy

replies 443Sep 26, 2017 8:13 AM +00:00

r442 I am serious. I find the film as a whole hackneyed and moon-eyed. Judy is marvelous, as is the rest of the cast.

replies 444Sep 26, 2017 3:15 PM +00:00

Thank you, r443 for mentioning GIRL CRAZY. I'd rate it much higher myself, if only for this number alone.

replies 445Sep 26, 2017 3:23 PM +00:00

Judy has some wonderful moments in Girl Crazy. But Not For Me is gorgeously beautiful.

replies 446Sep 26, 2017 9:20 PM +00:00
I find the film as a whole hackneyed and moon-eyed.

Hackneyed? Do you even understand the word? TWOO was unlike any film before it. It was a fresh, original take on a well known story. The special effects and the use of color alone make it anything but hackneyed.

Moon-eyed? TWOO even treated the element of a child's wonder in a new way.

For contrast, take a look at how most popular entertainment for children had been presented before TWOO. See the films of Shirley Temple.

replies 447Sep 27, 2017 1:25 AM +00:00

r447 I appreciate Judy in the movie. Maybe because I've seen it so many times, who knows. But it's my 9th fave.

replies 448Sep 27, 2017 4:00 PM +00:00

r448: I find the last 1/4th of OZ a real slog from the 'rescuing Dorothy' scene on. There is no music in it. One misses the musical reprise of "Ding Dong, the Witch is Dead" when Dorothy and her friends return to the Emerald City in triumph.

replies 449Sep 27, 2017 4:06 PM +00:00

r449 yes, agreed. Great insight. I think r447 is Miss James Gavin.

replies 450Sep 27, 2017 4:09 PM +00:00

Thank you, r450. After I learned the number was there and cut, I find the snap transition between Dorothy presented with the broom by the grateful Winkies and the slow walk down the hall towards the Wizards chambers to be harsh and annoying.
replies 451Sep 27, 2017 4:52 PM +00:00

Best entertainer ever, best live recording ever, best hairdresser story ever.

replies 452Sep 27, 2017 4:57 PM +00:00

I love to hear her sing, but I hate to watch her perform in her last fifteen ears of life, like in the OP's video. She was so ridiculously mannered and twitchy. It's so much nicer just to hear the voice alone.

replies 453Sep 27, 2017 5:01 PM +00:00

My Mom died in March.

Reading this thread and hearing Garland sing "Have Yourself A Merry Little Christmas" and "Danny Boy" is overwhelmingly bittersweet, especially on this early Autumn evening.

replies 454Sep 27, 2017 5:21 PM +00:00

Sorry about your Mom, Della. Was she a Judy fan? In 1961, I went with my late parents to see Judy in concert. They were big fans.

replies 455Sep 27, 2017 5:26 PM +00:00

Thanks, r455. Yes, she was and so am I.

I know it's on Johnny Carson instead of the Carnegie recording, but a few years ago, someone here posted her performance of "After the Holidays."

It's exquisitely depressing. I may have to listen to it now....

replies 456Sep 27, 2017 5:43 PM +00:00

Barbra's voice is far far superior

replies 457Sep 27, 2017 6:28 PM +00:00

Streisand fan here - that's a troll post above.

Someone posted here that they preferred Judy's black-and-white films to her Technicolor ones - I do as well. She looks healthier and is not as jittery as she got from THE HARVEY GIRLS on (exception: IN THE GOOD OLD SUMMERTIME, where she is relaxed and funny).

One thing I cannot abide in the Judy - Mickey films BABES IN ARMS and STRIKE UP THE BAND is that usually she is a total masochist doormat for the obnoxious Rooney - she even refers to herself as an 'ugly duckling' in BABES. In BABES ON BROADWAY and GIRL CRAZY, she is evenly matched and looks gorgeous.

replies 458Sep 27, 2017 6:39 PM +00:00

Barbra: Smarter, more talented, more awards and lasted much much longer because she is not weak willed when it comes to drugs and alcohol.

replies 459Sep 27, 2017 7:03 PM +00:00

And not nearly as moving.

replies 460Sep 27, 2017 7:25 PM +00:00

This isn't a thread about Streisand. You want to talk about Barbra, start your own thread.

replies 461Sep 27, 2017 8:44 PM +00:00

R461 you are right! This is for Garlandiana!

replies 462Sep 28, 2017 3:40 AM +00:00

I have to say I think from MEET ME IN ST LOUIS on, Judy looks slightly 'off' in MGM Technicolor. Many times she appears unnaturally pale which is only accentuated by her dark hair and red lips. She comes off much better with lighter hair - she looks great as a dark blonde in TILL THE CLOUDS ROLL BY and with lighter brown hair in IN THE GOOD OLD SUMMERTIME. (Sydney must have had an off day when the cut "Last Night when We were Young" was shot - those roots!)

She doesn't have that pale look in A STAR IS BORN - Warners' Dell Armstrong's makeup for her gives her a nice healthy glow.
--Dot Ponedel's cold coffee mug
replies 463Sep 28, 2017 5:43 AM +00:00

I still say she's just about perfect in I COULD GO ON SINGING. She's playing a character very much like herself, she doesn't have to pretend to be an ingenue, the story is not some goddamn "Let's put on a show in the barn" nonsense and she finally is able to stop pretending to give a fuck about her hair.

replies 464Sep 28, 2017 9:21 AM +00:00

I agree with you, r464. I actually prefer her in I COULD GO ON SINGING than in A STAR IS BORN.

replies 465Sep 28, 2017 12:46 PM +00:00

She's pretty darn beautiful in Presenting Lily Mars

replies 466Sep 28, 2017 8:59 PM +00:00

When she turns around in that red dress in ICGOS to reveal that not only does she have no waist, she has no ass - it's disconcerting. The costume designer should have given her a jacket or something. Disguise disguise disguise.

replies 467Sep 28, 2017 9:10 PM +00:00

"In the Good Old Summertime" gets better and better with every viewing. A relaxed, gorgeous Judy in fine voice and top comic form, a fine foil in Van Johnson, a brilliant supporting cast of Spring Byington, S.Z. "Cuddles" Sakall, and Buster Keaton complete the fun.

The best moment? The "Put Your Arms Around Me Honey" scene and number in the music store. Judy at the very top of her game!

replies 468Sep 28, 2017 9:52 PM +00:00

I've posted this before, but the person who killed off Judy's career at MGM was Arthur Freed.

SUMMERTIME was made by the less-pressured, lower-budgeted Pasternack unit. When June Allyson got pregnant, Joe P. asked Freed to "borrow" Judy for it. Judy walked into a friendly, supportive, warm set, helmed by Robert Z. "Pops" Leonard, with no Freed (and presumably no Minelli) hovering over everything. In this atmosphere, Judy blossomed. She was a dream to work with - on time, no problems, had a blast with the cast (Van Johnson adored her, no surprise there). And the film wrapped early and under-budget. Afterwards, Freed approached Leonard in the MGM commissary. "I heard the stories about Garland - not late to the set, in a cheerful mood, no problems did you do it?" "Simple, Arthur. We treated her like a human being."

Freed's ANNIE GET YOUR GUN was next for Judy. So what does he do? "Hmmmm...Let me use a directer whom Judy CAN'T STAND. I mean, REALLY LOATHES. Someone she's worked with before who left her a wreck. Someone who'll SCREAM at her and make her feel like a machine. I got it! I'll get BUZZ! She'll be in Mennenger's in a snap!"

replies 469Sep 29, 2017 3:57 AM +00:00

I meant to add, all the qualities noted by r468 came about by her atmosphere. You can tell Judy really enjoyed making it, and she shines more than any of her late Freed Unit films. She's wonderful in those of course but she has a bit more 'snap' in SUMMERTIME. She should have done more straight comedies.

replies 470Sep 29, 2017 4:04 AM +00:00

And I've always gotten a kick from this poster with pin-up Judy flashing her gams in red pumps, giving the impression the film is set in 1949 instead of the turn-of-the-century.
--r469 - r470
replies 471Sep 29, 2017 4:11 AM +00:00

I like Summertime a lot, also. Did you know it was originally supposed to be Gene Kelly co-starring? Would have been interesting.

replies 472Sep 29, 2017 10:34 AM +00:00

How did Judy and Van Johnson get along with each other?

replies 473Sep 29, 2017 12:06 PM +00:00

R473 they became thick as thieves. Interesting at r469, I hold a similar opinion of the Freed Unit.

replies 474Sep 29, 2017 12:08 PM +00:00

Thanks, r474. I figured a big old queen like Van would've adored Judy!

replies 475Sep 29, 2017 12:11 PM +00:00

DL fave Dolores Gray maintained that went Judy was taken off the picture, Arthur Freed tried to have Dolores replace her. Gray was playing the role in London but the producer, Emil Littler wouldn't let her out of her contract. She ended up playing the role in London longer than Merman did on Broadway. Freed eventually put Gray under contract at MGM.

Betty Hutton seems to have been quite a compromise in the role. She was a Paramount star and had been quite vocal about Paramount "allowing" the film rights to go to MGM. She was not warmly received at MGM, unsurprisingly.

Dolores Gray Performing "You Can't Get A Man With a Gun" from Annie Get Your Gun on a television special, "The Music of the West" from October 23 1959.
replies 476Sep 29, 2017 12:21 PM +00:00

I think Judy was so brilliant, and shone so brightly, that no one can top her, or equal her. Ever.

replies 477Sep 29, 2017 6:04 PM +00:00

Betty Hutton talked about this extensively with Robert Osborne during his interview with her. She said she was not welcomed on the set because everyone wanted Judy. "I wanted Judy, too," she said. "I loved Judy as much as everyone else did." It seemed like a very sad story and it clearly bothered her still that she was shunned after being loaned out from Paramount to 'save' the picture. Which she did; the film was a big hit. It was never right for Judy although had she been in good health she could have been amusing in it. I think Royal Wedding and The Barkleys of Broadway are the two big losses from that period.

replies 478Sep 29, 2017 9:26 PM +00:00

R445 - so MANY fuckable adorable young men.

replies 479Sep 30, 2017 1:52 AM +00:00

And how, r479! I'd love to know who's the stunner whom Judy hugs at 1:33.

replies 480Sep 30, 2017 4:46 AM +00:00

Apparently, it's just I who feels this way, but I never considered "Oz" to be a musical. Yes, I know there's a lot of singing and dancing, but it always seems more like a kid's movie or a fantasy. as opposed to a standard musical.

Is "Funny Girl" considered a musical? Is "Meet Me in St. Louis" considered a musical?

I don't know.

replies 481Sep 30, 2017 7:40 AM +00:00

Yes, and yes R481. Just different.

replies 482Oct 1, 2017 4:07 PM +00:00

"I know many people snicker at her look in Meet Me In St. Louis."

I don't know why so many on Datalounge think she looked bad in "Meet Me In St. Louis." Film critics (and Judy herself) thought that she never looked better. In fact, Judy marveled at how Vincent Minnelli had managed to make her look "beautiful" for the first time in her film career. I myself thought she did look very good in that movie.

replies 483Oct 1, 2017 4:50 PM +00:00

Judy was beautiful in MMISL and anyone who says otherwise is just being a bitch. She was also gorgeous in Lily Mars and Girl Crazy. This was around the time she was dating Tyrone Power, I believe.

replies 484Oct 5, 2017 10:56 AM +00:00

She was getting good dick, R484

replies 485Oct 5, 2017 5:18 PM +00:00

what hollywood star isn't?

replies 486Oct 5, 2017 9:08 PM +00:00

Everytime I see these late in life clips of Judy Garland it amazes me that how after 20+ years of booze and pills her voice only seemed to get better. Yet with Whitney Houston 20+ years of booze and pills ruined her voice. Amazing how it affects everyone so differently.

replies 487Oct 6, 2017 12:20 AM +00:00

R487 It's true. Her early 1960s singing voice and performances are so much better than her 1950s performances in my opinion.

replies 488Oct 6, 2017 2:01 AM +00:00

r484: Not being a bitch. It's that long red wig. It doesn't flatter her and LOOKS looks like a wig. When her hair is up, she is indeed lovely. I know that she thought she was beautiful in MMISL, but I think she was more beautiful in LILY MARS and especially GIRL CRAZY. When she drives her jeep in the sunshine with her loose hair and in a simple blouse and jeans she's a knockout. (Nice location shooting, too).

But the time of THE HARVEY GIRLS she's still lovely but getting too thin.

replies 489Oct 6, 2017 3:56 AM +00:00

I think the opening song in Harvey Girls is extremely lovely indeed.

replies 490Oct 6, 2017 9:17 AM +00:00

Yes, Judy look lovely in Lily Mars and Girl Crazy. They should have left her eyebrows as they were in those films. She looks sort of draggy in St Louis, and had lost too much weight.

replies 491Oct 6, 2017 9:43 AM +00:00

Judy's vocal damage was clear on Carnegie Hall. Think of the opening of Over the Rainbow. She often sounds rough at parts requiring softer, head tones. That makes her full throttle belts all the more impressive. She wills her voice to soar when it was already fraying. It's the willpower that's superhuman at times.

replies 492Oct 6, 2017 9:48 AM +00:00

Tyrone Power was just another one of Judy's gay boyfriends. Why did so many gay men want to fuck Judy Garland? What was it about her that attracted them? And why was SHE attracted to them? I could never figure that out.

replies 493Oct 6, 2017 2:43 PM +00:00

r490: "In The Valley When The Evening Sun Goes Down" is enchanting, and inexplicably forgotten. One of Judy's loveliest MGM songs.

Introduced by Judy Garland in the film The Harvey Girls, 1946. This is a High Quality closeup. Words by Johnny Mercer, music by Harry Warren. When white clou...
replies 494Oct 6, 2017 3:43 PM +00:00

I absolutely love that and think it's one of the most beautiful openings to any Garland film.

replies 495Oct 6, 2017 7:06 PM +00:00

Yesterday, October 6, was actually the 54th anniversary of the Garland-Streisand episode of the Judy Garland Show. Barbra tweeted about it. She always speaks very lovingly about Judy.

replies 496Oct 7, 2017 7:24 AM +00:00

“Afterward, she used to visit me and give me advice,” Ms. Streisand says. “She came to my apartment in New York, and she said to me, ‘Don’t let them do to you what they did to me.’ I didn’t know what she meant then. I was just getting started.”

Judy hanging out with Barbra .... wow........

replies 497Oct 7, 2017 3:59 PM +00:00

And it's interesting to me that Barbra apparently really liked Judy, and they continued their relationship past the television show. Judy visiting Barbra in her NY apt....just fascinating

replies 498Oct 7, 2017 10:20 PM +00:00

Interesting tidbits from "Rainbows End" the excellent Coyne Steven Sanders book about "The Judy Garland Show":

Very late in her life, Judy appeared at the National Film Theater in London and had a question-and-answer session with the audience. Someone made a comment that people were comparing Barbra to Judy which was greeted with derisive hoots. Judy shushed them: "She's marvelous, she's marvelous. You cant deny the fact that she's a star. No one will be able to deny the fact that Barbra Streisand is a great talent. There doesn't have to be a competition. She has her way of singing, I have mine. Theres enough room for all of us. She's splendid ....and very nice."

Tonight Show, December 1968: Carson asked Judy who were her favorite singers. Judy replied "Barbra Streisand and Liza Minnelli.

For her guest spot, Streisand received an Emmy nomination in competition with Judy, and Barbra was embarrassed: "I should have been put in a different category. Its silly to put me up against people who had a weekly show like Judy, Perry Como, Andy Williams and Danny Kaye. I'd hate to do a weekly show. How can you get good material every week?" (Kaye won)

The most tantalizing tidbit, from the Hollywood Reporter, May 1964: "Barbra Streisand is eager to split a fall special right down the middle with Judy Garland, so grateful is she that her first Emmy nomination was pegged on her guesting on the Garland show."

(Judy was in Europe for most of the rest of the year, and suffered a dramatic decline of her health. But wow....that would have really been something)

replies 499Oct 7, 2017 11:45 PM +00:00

Can you imagine a full hour of those two doing solos and duets? My gosh. Tantalizing is right.

replies 500Oct 8, 2017 12:06 PM +00:00

It's interesting Judy didn't get any love from the Emmys. Or the Oscars (except for the juvenile Oscar for OZ). Lauren Bacall said that after Judy didn't win for ASIB, that's when she really went downhill. It's so sad that her peers 'punished' her for her perceived 'bad behavior' rather than recognizing a musical genius at work.

replies 501Oct 9, 2017 10:31 AM +00:00

Not to mention Van's helium shoes r471.....

--just thought I'd mention them
replies 502Oct 9, 2017 10:52 AM +00:00


replies 503Oct 9, 2017 5:48 PM +00:00

I heard the original cast for "Summertime" was June Allyson and Frank Sinatra! I don't think that would have worked at all. Judy and Van are wonderful.

I love how Buster Keaton was hired originally just to stage the leads' "meet cute" scene with physical business which is very good, but decided to cast him as one of the music store employees. I'm glad they did.

replies 504Oct 9, 2017 9:01 PM +00:00

wow, I wonder why they didn't use Judy and Frank together? That would have been lovely having them in a movie.

replies 505Oct 9, 2017 9:25 PM +00:00
It's so sad that her peers 'punished' her for her perceived 'bad behavior' rather than recognizing a musical genius at work.

Her bad behavior was indeed bad behavior. It wasn't "perceived".

replies 506Oct 10, 2017 7:26 AM +00:00
For her guest spot, Streisand received an Emmy nomination in competition with Judy, and Barbra was embarrassed: "I should have been put in a different category. It is silly to put me up against people who had a weekly show like Judy, Perry Como, Andy Williams and Danny Kaye. I'd hate to do a weekly show. How can you get good material every week?"

That seems like a rather sly put-down of their shows.

replies 507Oct 10, 2017 7:46 AM +00:00

No, she's right. It's impossible to get good material every week. That's why so much of weekly variety shows was ho hum.

replies 508Oct 10, 2017 9:16 AM +00:00

Re: Judy's behavior. Some of it was bad and some of it was a reaction to being treated poorly and worked like a dog with no consideration for her well being. Arthur Freed treated her badly and she behaved badly in turn. Busby Berkeley screamed at her and overworked her and she behaved badly in turn. She did not behave badly when she was treated like a human being and a valued artist.

replies 509Oct 10, 2017 9:20 AM +00:00

R509 There is no excuse for holding up an entire set for hours. That just doesn't work in the business.

Garland's behavior was not calibrated to how she was treated. She was mentally ill and an addict.

For example, she was treated very well on the set of Valley of the Dolls, but she got drunk and passed out on a pool table, flashing everyone who talked by, and was fired.

replies 510Oct 10, 2017 9:32 AM +00:00

By that point, Judy was no longer in control. You are judging harshly someone who was driven into addiction by the studio she worked for. There was a period--when she was at MGM--when she could have been saved from her fate, but MGM didn't want to help her, claiming "she's at the top of her box office right now!" The idea of giving her a year off to dry out was beyond comprehension to them, no matter the disastrous effect it would have on Judy's health.. By the time of VOTD, she was beyond help.

replies 511Oct 10, 2017 9:39 AM +00:00

"The business," lol.

Mr. Insider.

replies 512Oct 10, 2017 11:03 AM +00:00

Lots of people took uppers/downers back then and didn't wind up like Garland.

I think she had other issues. She may have been bipolar.

replies 513Oct 10, 2017 11:09 AM +00:00

It's hilarious how some of you will give a pass to Garland, but other drug addicts are laughed at and made fun of.

replies 514Oct 10, 2017 3:29 PM +00:00

R513, I've wondered if she might have been bipolar, too.

Whatever the cause, she found she needed the pills to function, to cope. Of course, it was her undoing, but she was just trying to struggle through her life and make the most of it, just like we all do. In her case, the highs and lows, the triumphs and crashes were all exaggerated, maybe caused equally by the pills and an underlying mental illness or weakness.

She was like Halley's Comet, a bright star blazing through the sky that we're privileged to witness once in a lifetime if we're lucky. We hardly could take the intensity of her; how could she handle it herself?

--Gay Woman, but go ahead and call me Mary :)
replies 515Oct 10, 2017 4:21 PM +00:00

True. She is thrilling in the Carnegie Hall Concert but can you imagine that intensity on a day to day basis?

replies 516Oct 10, 2017 7:14 PM +00:00

That's just it r516. Nobody could.

replies 517Oct 10, 2017 7:20 PM +00:00

One of the shows that was never made (in favor of the cheaper concert episodes, which Judy favored after she heard the show was being cancelled) was supposed to have Ella Fitzgerald as a guest. I'm really sorry that one never happened.

replies 518Oct 11, 2017 8:52 PM +00:00

Let me start by saying that I love hard rock. From Led Zeppelin, KISS, Faith No More to Rolling Stones, Jefferson Airplane, Pink Floyd BUT the Judy Carnegie Hall album is FUCKIN' AWESOME.

Give it a listen.

**NO COPYRIGHT INTENDED. I DO NOT OWN RIGHTS TO THIS ALBUM, BUT I DID PURCHASE IT** Act 1 of 2 of Judy Garland's live performance at Carnegie Hall in 1961 Re...
replies 519Oct 11, 2017 9:29 PM +00:00

Other shows that were never made were with Betty Grable and Alice Faye (it would have been fun to see Judy goofing with her Fox rivals) and most annoyingly Steve & Eydie. Judy and Eydie duetting would have rivaled Judy & Streisand - they would have blown the roof off the studio.

replies 520Oct 12, 2017 5:45 AM +00:00
most annoyingly Steve & Eydie

I agree. They were most annoying.

replies 521Oct 12, 2017 6:30 AM +00:00

Maybe Steve, but Eydie sang like a dream.

replies 522Oct 12, 2017 8:11 AM +00:00

I know Eydie was very popular around this time, but I never got her. Her voice does nothing for me.

replies 523Oct 12, 2017 8:12 AM +00:00

Wasn't Eydie always regarded as a second-rate lounge singer?

replies 524Oct 12, 2017 8:14 AM +00:00

No, I think she sold a lot of records at one time.

replies 525Oct 12, 2017 8:15 AM +00:00

R525 So did Pat Boone. Your point?

Her only hit was the gimmicky "Blame It On the Bossa Nova."

She was never put in the same league as Barbra, Judy, Ella, Peggy, etc.

replies 526Oct 12, 2017 8:28 AM +00:00

She should have been.

So perfectly refreshing! Songs: Piel Canela, Sabor a Mi, Granada. Fantastic blend with the legendary Trio and marvelous versatility from Gorme.
replies 527Oct 12, 2017 12:20 PM +00:00

r521: I meant it was annoying that Steve & Eydie were NOT on Judy's show. Steve was a pretty good singer, and Eydie was a great one. (Thank you for that clip, r527. One of my favorites!)

replies 528Oct 12, 2017 12:30 PM +00:00

R528 Garland would have greased her up and mopped the floor with her carcass. Eydie sucked.. Balls.

replies 529Oct 12, 2017 3:20 PM +00:00

Eydie was cheese! It's like the people on here who love Connie Francis and Neal Sedaka!

It's pretty hilarious how low-brow some of your tastes are.

replies 530Oct 12, 2017 3:26 PM +00:00

I figured out who the annoying poster upthread -- the one who fancied himself god's musical gift to the world & complained about her vibrato -- reminded me of: Mel Torme.

replies 531Oct 12, 2017 5:38 PM +00:00

R531 Even people who love Judy Garland are apt to comment about her untamed vibrato.

replies 532Oct 12, 2017 5:41 PM +00:00

You people are nutty! Eydie Gorme was sensational!

Eydie really nails that song to the wall, followed by a solid 25 seconds of applause... Taped off air on an early home reel to reel video recorder.
replies 533Oct 12, 2017 6:23 PM +00:00

Eydie was fun on the Carol Burnett show. It might have been fun seeing her and Garland together, something like Judy's funny duet with Martha Raye, the difference being that Eydie actually could sing well.

replies 534Oct 12, 2017 9:47 PM +00:00

Amen, r533! I love that Carson clip. And this has to be in every thread that mentions Eydie.

Fabulous Eydie sings a song from the Broadway hit "Mame"...
replies 535Oct 13, 2017 4:10 AM +00:00

If you listen carefully to very early Barbra Streisand, and Liza Minnelli, it is quite clear that they were both largely influenced by Eydie Gorme and her style.

replies 536Oct 13, 2017 2:45 PM +00:00

My body is covered in goosebumps from watching R435

replies 537Oct 13, 2017 5:25 PM +00:00

I think Eydie was imitating Barbra.

replies 538Oct 13, 2017 5:44 PM +00:00

Eydie was recording 10 years before Streisand started at the Bon Soir.

replies 539Oct 14, 2017 10:54 AM +00:00

Eydie was so brassy. Yes, she had talent, but her voice was very harsh.

replies 540Oct 14, 2017 11:21 AM +00:00

r540 that's it. Harsh and brassy. No intimacy.

replies 541Oct 14, 2017 4:50 PM +00:00


replies 542Oct 14, 2017 7:19 PM +00:00

Is there any documentation on how Judy and Burt Lancaster got along while filming together? I seem to remember that Judy didn't like the director. He was a replacement for Stanley Kramer, who she did like.

replies 543Oct 14, 2017 9:11 PM +00:00

A Child Is Waiting is difficult to sit through though it does have its moments. I wish Judy had a more dramatic part, I'd love to have seen her and Lancaster really go at it.

replies 544Oct 15, 2017 8:48 AM +00:00

Eydie's and Judy's duet was rehearsed, but Eydie was unhappy with Judy's sense of humor.

EYDIE: What did I have that I don't have?

JUDY: Your own hair?

EYDIE: What did he like that I lost track of?

JUDY: Do you really want me to say it. We have an audience!

EYDIE: What did I do that I don't do the way I did before?

JUDY: The CBS censors won't let me say!

EYDIE: What isn't there that once was there?

JUDY: The "there" is now around your waist!

EYDIE: What have I got a great big lack of?

JUDY: It looks twice as big to me!

EYDIE: Something in me that he could see

JUDY: Sooooobriety?

EYDIE: That beckons to him no more

replies 545Oct 16, 2017 7:56 AM +00:00

Edie was a bit like Christina A, Kelly Clarkson et al are now- great pipes- big voice, but somehow not quite "it". It's about musicianship, artistry with a bit of craftsmanship in song.

replies 546Oct 16, 2017 8:06 AM +00:00

R546 makes a really valid point.

replies 547Oct 16, 2017 8:19 AM +00:00

I agree very much. Something is

replies 548Oct 16, 2017 8:20 AM +00:00

Never once in her film career did Judy get male co star that she really had sexual chemistry with. As young adults, she and Mickey Rooney had good chemistry, but she was always cast as the "best friend" while he romanced Ann Rutherford or Lana Turner.

Her big chance for a romantic pairing would have come along in MEET ME IN ST LOUIS, but alas, however she was paired with no talent gay blob Tom Drake. After that it was gay/fey men all the way: Van Johnson, Gene Kelly, Fred Astaire. Or too old, like James Mason in A STAR IS BORN. I really think that if Sinatra had taken that role that he and Judy could really have sizzled and if produced differently could have netted Oscars for both of them.

replies 549Oct 16, 2017 9:58 AM +00:00

Judy Garland had no sex appeal.

Even in real life, the men may have used her, but always went for the prettier girls to marry.

replies 550Oct 16, 2017 10:07 AM +00:00

One of Judy's biographers said this about her, and I think it's true: "Judy seems to have had the kind of metabolism that welcomes foreign agents and transforms them into hungers that can never be satisfied." I think she was also bi-polar, which also contributed to her life long, hopeless addiction to drugs and booze. Liza Minnelli said of her" If she was happy, she wasn’t just happy, she was ecstatic. And when she was sad, she was sadder then anyone." That is so typical of people with bi-polar disorder; they to to extremes. For them, there's rarely a middle ground.

replies 551Oct 16, 2017 12:04 PM +00:00

Interesting , r551: One of the bad (!) original reviews of OZ describes Judy's performance thusly: "When she is merry, the whole house shakes and when she cries, everyone gets wet."

replies 552Oct 16, 2017 2:26 PM +00:00

It shows in her singing. It's part of her brilliance.

replies 553Oct 16, 2017 4:28 PM +00:00

Listen to "When the Sun Comes Out" in one of the early Judy Garland TV shows. The last portion is devastatingly powerful, as she uses her ability to trail a note downward -- used carefully, to great effect. You will never hear or see anything like it. We are so lucky it is preserved on film.

replies 554Oct 16, 2017 5:24 PM +00:00

We're going to make 600! HAIL JUDY!!!!!

--never forgotten
replies 555Oct 16, 2017 5:42 PM +00:00
never forgotten

Until Datalounge goes offline.

replies 556Oct 16, 2017 6:04 PM +00:00

I started a Judy thread once that got over 900 responses, back when threads went that long. We love our Judy.

replies 557Oct 16, 2017 8:51 PM +00:00

It's all about The Man That Got Away for me.Peerless.

replies 558Oct 17, 2017 12:07 AM +00:00

Sorry but nothing can top Babs' original recording of when the sun cones out

replies 559Oct 17, 2017 2:50 AM +00:00

We can just appreciate them both, can't we?

replies 560Oct 17, 2017 8:23 AM +00:00

I have to agree with the old scat queen R559 on this one thing: Streisand's version of "When the Sun Comes Out" is amazing. I'm sure Judy thought so, too, if begrudgingly.

When The Sun Comes Out, The Second Barbra Streisand Album, 1963
replies 561Oct 17, 2017 8:47 AM +00:00

Judy and Barbra both have a "sound" that captures excitement, and every kind of emotion, both subtle and huge. And although very different in sound, their voices are beautiful- a sustained note with vibrato- Streisand's shimmers or throbs and Judy's throbs almost like an engine. They both tend to phrase like they are speaking to you, although they are always singing. They both deliver simple songs quietly sung as well as the big numbers. Ever heard Streisand sing Some Day My Prince Will Come in concert? It's almost heart breaking- ditto Auld Ang Syne in 2000. Judy does exactly the same.

I cannot pick. What I do know is that no one comes close aside from some great stylists such as Ella and Aretha (and others)- or some of the great singer-song writers like Joni and Judy Collins- If Amy Winehouse had not succumbed to substance abuse I think she might have been an artist at the level of some these women. KD Lang is damn fine, but her output is kind of disappointing. Whitney never got to material equal to her voice and talent- don't exactly know why aside from the obvious. But then Judy died of the same thing, about the same age.

replies 562Oct 17, 2017 9:04 AM +00:00
Whitney never got to material equal to her voice and talent

She had the voice but not the talent. She simply did not know how to interpret a lyric. And of course, most of her songs were pop crap.

And the material was out there....even if it meant doing an album of jazz standards or classics from the Great American Songbook. But Whitney would have needed a mentor, heavy direction to do it right.

replies 563Oct 17, 2017 9:59 AM +00:00

R563 In fairness to Whitney, almost everything Streisand recorded after the '60s was pop crap, too.

Garland didn't live long enough to do her "Judy Does Disco" album.

replies 564Oct 17, 2017 10:01 AM +00:00

R564 That's an extent. Barbra at least did a B'way album.

Whitney couldn't even do that. She had plenty of opportunity to do great songs...they're out there. But that's not what her career was about.

replies 565Oct 17, 2017 10:10 AM +00:00

Judy and Burt Lancaster got along fine. It was a dragged out eleven week shoot, as I believe Judy had some concert dates during the shoot, and she was drinking heavily. I understood director John Cassavetes earned Judy's trust and she liked him. I recall reading he wanted to edit Judy's performance using her more restrained takes, but UA decided on later more tear-jerking "all out" takes Cassavetes also shot, and that it weakened the film overall. It's a grim film, but not poorly constructed, and well worth seeing the excellent lead performances. It was very "of its time".

I always wondered why Kramer didn't offer Judy a role in his "It's a Mad Mad Mad Mad World" he did at that time as well. Judy would have been hilarious in the Merman role, and it would have reunited her with Rooney.

replies 566Oct 17, 2017 6:48 PM +00:00

What a great idea! I wish that had happened. Judy is wonderful in comedy.

replies 567Oct 17, 2017 8:13 PM +00:00

I'm glad Judy and Burt got along. I like and respect them both.

replies 568Oct 17, 2017 9:47 PM +00:00

It was Judy Carne and Burt Reynolds that didn't get along.

replies 569Oct 18, 2017 7:20 AM +00:00
I always wondered why Kramer didn't offer Judy a role in his "It's a Mad Mad Mad Mad World" he did at that time as well.

What was she like to work with at that time? Maybe he didn't like holding up the crew for hours.

I heard that she would poop in trash cans on her last movie to show her anger at not being given a toilet in her trailer, which was very rare in England at the time.

A lot of people decided she wasn't worth the trouble working with, regardless of talent.

replies 570Oct 18, 2017 7:40 AM +00:00

She was no trouble at all on Judgment at Nuremberg. She and Kramer got along great, which is why he tapped her for A Child Is Waiting. Kramer then had to bow out and Cassavettes took over.

replies 571Oct 18, 2017 8:54 AM +00:00
She was no trouble at all on Judgment at Nuremberg.

Meanwhile, in the real world . . .

Garland did exhibit some of her old behavior later when she was required to do some retakes on the same day she was scheduled to perform at the Hollywood Bowl. The prospect of ruining her voice before the concert terrified her, and she became hysterical. Kramer rescheduled her scenes, but it still took her friends and handlers four hours to calm her down.
Judgment at Nuremberg
Turner Classic Movies
replies 572Oct 18, 2017 10:06 AM +00:00

Judy was singing "When the Sun Comes Out" before Barbra got to it. It's on her 1959 Cocoanut Grove recording.

replies 573Oct 18, 2017 11:51 AM +00:00

R573 And? Eydie Gorme recorded it in 1957. Are you claiming that that makes Judy's recording derivative or inferior?

replies 574Oct 18, 2017 11:57 AM +00:00

Absolutely not, R574. I was replying to R561 who might not have known that Judy had been singing the song before Streisand recorded it.

replies 575Oct 18, 2017 12:21 PM +00:00

R575 Given their enormous age difference, I think most people understood that Garland probably sang EVERYTHING first.

replies 576Oct 18, 2017 12:39 PM +00:00

Yes, R576, but probably more people know Garland's "When the Sun Comes Out" from her TV series and not her Grove album.

replies 577Oct 18, 2017 12:47 PM +00:00

It seems that of those few people who own any Garland albums, it is always the Carnegie Hall one.

She wasn't known for recording good albums.

replies 578Oct 18, 2017 1:32 PM +00:00

R578, "those few people who own any Garland albums?" What? Are you just a simpleton.

replies 579Oct 18, 2017 3:30 PM +00:00

R579 You don't really think MANY people own Judy Garland albums in 2017, do you?

You really need to get out more.

No one straight or under 60 (with a few exceptions) owns them -- or knows about them.

--Truth Fairy
replies 580Oct 18, 2017 4:42 PM +00:00

Uh, I know a lot of people in their 20s who adore Judy Garland, and I don't mean just gay men. I know of quite a few women who revere her both as a singer and as an actress. I am in the arts, so perhaps it's different for me, but Judy Garland pops up on my FB timeline more often than you might imagine and it's usually women posting it.

replies 581Oct 18, 2017 9:26 PM +00:00

There was Garland, and there was Streisand. There has been no one since then, though, to pick up the torch. It's not Whitney and it's not Beyonce. Neither are great artists.

replies 582Oct 19, 2017 10:14 PM +00:00

R582 - Though I know it solidifies my status as an old fogey, I agree with you completely. I'd love to add someone new to my list of true greats but so far, no luck. Garland and Streisand, each spectacular in her own way. Musicality to the bone, emotional connection, "it". Moments of magic. Still hoping there's another one out there, though!

--Gay Woman
replies 583Oct 20, 2017 5:35 PM +00:00
I know a lot of people in their 20s who adore Judy Garland
replies 584Oct 20, 2017 6:02 PM +00:00

Cute, but I'm not kidding or exaggerating. I am a teacher and I know a lot of students in their 20s. There are a lot of Garland fans. Undoubtedly because of the Wizard of Oz.

replies 585Oct 20, 2017 10:10 PM +00:00
I know a lot of people in their 20s who adore Judy Garland

Of course they do. Just about every kid sees the the Wizard of Oz and Judy Garland's performance still speaks to kids even today. It's a truly memorable film experience, something that stays with you.


Though I know it solidifies my status as an old fogey, I agree with you completely. I'd love to add someone new to my list of true greats but so far, no luck. Garland and Streisand, each spectacular in her own way. Musicality to the bone, emotional connection, "it". Moments of magic. Still hoping there's another one out there, though!

True. There have been a number of very good entertainers since, some with "Diva" status, but none on the level of Garland and Streisand.

replies 586Oct 21, 2017 1:51 AM +00:00

Percentage of 20-Year-Olds Who've Seen The Wizard of Oz: 73%

Percentage of 20-Year-Olds Who Will Ever Own a Judy Garland CD: 0.02%

replies 587Oct 21, 2017 7:58 AM +00:00

R587 May I correct that for you?

Percentage of 20-Year-Olds Who've Seen The Wizard of Oz: 99%

Percentage of 20-Year-Olds Who Will Ever Own a CD: 0.02%

replies 588Oct 21, 2017 9:36 AM +00:00

I didn't say they were buying her CDs. I said they love her talent, adore her, talk about her, post clips of her, and watch her movies on TV.

replies 589Oct 21, 2017 3:23 PM +00:00

Most 20 year olds aren't buying CDs at all. They're buying "vinyls" to frame on their walls.

replies 590Oct 21, 2017 3:30 PM +00:00

It's adorable when old queens think 20 somethings are Judy Garland fans.

She's not exactly burning up Spotify.

replies 591Oct 21, 2017 3:48 PM +00:00

It's not adorable when some haughty queen thinks she knows more than she knows. I'm telling you from personal experience. If you want to lie and pretend it's not true it's up to you. What an awful, vacuous life you must lead.

replies 592Oct 21, 2017 4:40 PM +00:00

R592 Whatever you say. Bless your heart.

replies 593Oct 21, 2017 4:59 PM +00:00

FACT: With very few exceptions, the only Judy Garland fans are gay men over 60.

--The Truth Fairy
replies 594Oct 21, 2017 5:01 PM +00:00

FACT: you are utterly and absolutely wrong

replies 595Oct 21, 2017 5:19 PM +00:00

"I always wondered why Kramer didn't offer Judy a role in his "It's a Mad Mad Mad Mad World" he did at that time as well. Judy would have been hilarious in the Merman role, and it would have reunited her with Rooney."

Judy Garland as Mrs. Marcus in "It's A Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World?" That's pretty ridiculous. I think that role was created with Ethel Merman in mind. But Judy Garland screeching and screaming at the top of her lungs and behaving abominably? Nobody would have liked to see sweet little Judy doing that. And no film goer would have wanted to see dear little Judy Garland turned upside down and shaken and dumped in a garbage can and falling on her ass after slipping on a banana peel. Slapstick comedy was not something Judy Garland was cut out to do.

replies 596Oct 21, 2017 5:24 PM +00:00

You're right.

replies 597Oct 21, 2017 5:34 PM +00:00

I don't really give a fuck who her fans are. Fact is she has fans, millions of them. Undeniable.

replies 598Oct 22, 2017 2:27 PM +00:00

She is the greatest talent ever to come out of hollywood

replies 599Oct 22, 2017 9:16 PM +00:00

Extraordinary that a Judy Garland discussion made it to 600 replies in late 2017. She must be really swell. Keep it going...

replies 600Oct 22, 2017 9:53 PM +00:00