Just watched “Raging Bull” and I’m glad “Ordinary People” won Best Picture over it

I’m glad you watched both.

Ordinary People is an underrated classic like Kramer v. Kramer. They both tackled tough issues in an honest way.

Raging Bill is brilliant but one of those movies you can only watch once. DeNiro was great and Cathy Moriarty was also very good .

I’m not crazy about either film, but Raging Bull is beautifully photographed. Cathy Moriarty and Joe Pesci are really good. Robert DeNiro is kind of (accomplished) one note, but that’s the way the character’s written.

I don’t know what the point of the movie is. That a dumb, uneducated meat head is only good for physical combat?

(As a side note, I had a coworker in NY whose mom was LaMotta’s first wife. She said that Robert DeNiro came to their house before filming to discuss the marriage with her.)

I often like this podcast. Maybe their discussion will enlighten me, as I don’t feel like watching Raging Bull again.

[quote] Ordinary People is an underrated classic like Kramer v. Kramer.

Both films were highly critically celebrated in their day, and both won Best Picture at the Oscars.

"Underrated" they are not.

OP went to the ER when "Silence of the Lambs" won.

I rewatched both during the pandemic and liked Ordinary People a lot more than I did when I saw it in the theater a million years ago. Raging Bull on the other hand just didn’t hold up. And agree with R2–not sure what the point of the movie was.

R1 claims two winners of the Oscar for Best Picture are under appreciated.

R1 is ridiculous. About as much as the fact that those two movies won the Oscar for Best Picture.

[Quote] Ordinary People is an underrated classic like Kramer v. Kramer.

I like Ordinary People, but KvK is overrated, dull and forgettable. You feel that Dustin Hoffman and his son have only known each other for about 5 minutes before the picture begins.

I think Raging Bull is even less popular among Scorcese fans while Taxi Driver and Goodfellas have risen in esteem.

It is too self-consciously arty. The material doesn’t call for it to look like a European art film.

OP The Elephant Man is as good as Raging Bull and Ordinary People and David Lynch, Scorsese and Richard Rush (The Stunt Man) were more deserving of the Best Director Oscar than Redford.

[quote]R9 I think Raging Bull is even less popular among Scorcese fans

Robert De Niro found the property and loved it, then gave it to Martin Scorsese to read. He wasn’t attracted to the material.

I think over time the actor basically twisted Scorsese’s arm into making Raging Bull. Maybe that’s why it feels like it doesn’t have a solid center.

WHY must everything be a CONTEST???

My aunt knew LaMotta, she said the depiction was very accurate.

[quote]Jake LaMotta was a pig and a wife beater.

What does this have to do with whether the movie was well acted, directed, scored, edited, or filmed?

Buck would never hit a woman.

Both films are good but quite overrated, but at least Ordinary People doesn’t have the film bro cult behind it in the same ways Raging Bull does. I wish there was more Cathy Moriarty in the film. Funny you say you reason for disliking it is because Jake is a bad person - I feel the movie dehumanizes him to some degree by making him a cartoonish asshole rather than the human asshole he was, which is why I can’t fully get on board with what it’s attempting as a “life story when it’s really making all these people into 1940s boxing movie cliches retooled for 1980. Pauline Kael had a really great critical review that focused on that aspect. Favorite quote: “I know I'm supposed to be responding to a powerful, ironic realism, but I just feel trapped. Jake says, "You dumb fuck," and Joey says, "You dumb fuck," and they repeat it and repeat it. And I think. What am I doing here watching these two dumb fucks?”

Best films of 1980 (for me) were: Out of the Blue, The Shining, Cruising (yes, really), Dressed to Kill, The Elephant Man, The Long Good Friday, Gregory’s Girl, Death Watch, Bad Timing, and Altered States. Most of these wouldn’t be sniffed at by the Academy, sadly.

They both "hold up" in different ways. Both have their share of campy sparks and stark despair.

R14, because why build an entire film around such a creep? It’s beautifully shot and well-directed but he’s scum.

And how does Scorsese get away with these Italian-American stereotypes? Jesus, they’re like cartoon characters.

[quote]OP The Elephant Man is as good as Raging Bull and Ordinary People...

WOW talk about a movie that sticks with you even after 44 years. I've seen it only once, on release, and remember so much. Even Bancroft's performance remains a touchstone for Gilded Age heroines.

R4, all people not born when a good movie came out always claim it was underrated.

[quote]R16 Pauline Kael had a really great critical review that focused on that aspect. Favorite quote: “I know I'm supposed to be responding to a powerful, ironic realism, but I just feel trapped. Jake says, "You dumb fuck," and Joey says, "You dumb fuck," and they repeat it and repeat it. And I think. What am I doing here watching these two dumb fucks?”

Yes. That Kael quote’s read aloud by film critic Amy Nicholson in the R2 podcast analyzing Raging Bull.

[quote]And how does Scorsese get away with these Italian-American stereotypes? Jesus, they’re like cartoon characters.

That is a perfectly valid criticism of the movie - that the characters are cliches.

[quote]because why build an entire film around such a creep?

This is not. If it were purely fictional, as opposed to a dramatized version of a real (awful) person's life, would you feel differently. It would be one thing if it were a documentary that purported to tell the "real" story, but ended up aggrandizing terrible person and glorifying his bad behavior.

The short answer to your question about why make an entire film about a creep is that happy, good people rarely have sufficient conflict in their lives - a cornerstone necessary for a good screenplay, movie, or book.

Conflict is what drives storytelling.

'Ordinary People' is a great movie, but so painful to watch I never want to see it again.

'Sophie's Choice' is like that, too.

Didn’t like the main character, R22. And I fucking hate domestic abuse.

[qupte]And how does Scorsese get away with these Italian-American stereotypes? Jesus, they’re like cartoon characters.

Italian-Americans tend to revel in and celebrate their stereotypes, if it's done by another Italian American.

[quote]And how does Scorsese get away with these Italian-American stereotypes? Jesus, they’re like cartoon characters.

Italian-Americans tend to revel in and celebrate their stereotypes, if it's done by another Italian American.

[quote]And I fucking hate domestic abuse.

Uh... no one likes domestic abuse, or the Holocaust, or war, or slavery, or all kinds of subjects... but fortunately for us, artists tackle them.

Tony Bennett didn’t care for the stereotypes.

Unlike war or slavery or the Holocaust, LaMotta’s story had no urgency. It’s just there.

The movie I remember most fondly from that year is "Melvin and Howard," one of my all time favorites. It's very funny, but also sadly perceptive about aging, dreams, and delusions. Paul Le Mat wasn't even nominated, which says a lot about Oscar's distaste for great comic performances.

Melvin and Howard did win for Best Original Screenplay and Supporting Actress