I don't think the other members of the What's My Line panel liked Dorothy Kilgallen, Part 4

Previous thread.

Thanks, OP!

Two threads......which is the real one?

This one started first.

Gertrude Berg.

Am surprised she said she is primarily a dramatic actress.

Dorothy made the last safe flight across the Atlantic on the Hindenburg.

[quote]Two threads......which is the real one?

This is the real one. Accept no impostors. This ain't the "To Tell the Truth" thread.

[quote] Marilyn would never have got there on time. She was notorious for being late.

So was mama, but she made it in time.

Japanese trans policewoman.

Peter Gabel, son of Arlene and Martin.

Kudos to whoever closed the previous thread so cleverly.

See how Peter Gabel aged.

He looks a lot like his dad. Just enough Arlene in him to keep him from being a total fug. He was great in his twink phase though. The Martin genes just too over. Ugly genes are strong.

Oh, it got much worse.

[quote]Before Gloria Steinem told us it was bad, we used to be able to appreciate women’s looks. Can’t call them girls. Can’t call them ladies, either. Kind of tiresome.

BUT you can disparage women in rap music and hip-hop. And no one gives a shit.

And today you can have men invade women's spaces, women's sports. It's all ok.

The whistles in the studio of What's My Line ? were in fun and not disrespectful.

Way off topic but whenever I hear about the catcalling debate I think of the King of Queens episode when Carrie complains about that catcalling. Then it stops and she gets angry about that. Doug goes and pays the construction workers to start catcalling him again. Sorry for the disruption. I know that I didn't call for a conference.

Sue Lyon was 17 and wears an old lady dress.

The Japanese policewoman didn't get any catcalls or wolf whistles.

Quaint and yet annoying that Daly keeps saying Miss Dorothy and Miss Arlene (mostly the former) as if he's at a Southern cotillion.

R20 There's nothing annoying about it. It's genteel.

What did you want him to say? Yo bitch?

What about just Dorothy and Arlene?

Or maybe 2024 style: Queen Dorothy and Lady Arlene.

R20, how do you think you’d fare by the evolving standards of the next 60-70 years?

It was just Peter Gabel's long tresses that were fugly and silly. His face was perfectly handsome.

What about Bennett's sons Jonathan and Christopher? WEHT them?

WML alumna Lisa Lane merits a belated NYT obit.

Peter looks like a middle aged lesbian.

[quote] What about Bennett's sons Jonathan and Christopher? WEHT them?

Starting at 31:18, Jonathan speaking at Peter's memorial service last year.

i hate soupy sales.

R16 slips in the usual insulting slur while acting as if men (meaning people identifying as men) have not seen male spaces overridden by the voraciousness of women.

R31 Am I correct in assuming you are currently unemployed and living with your mom?

Would an audience of mostly middle aged people (I’m assuming) have gone wild for Elvis? More likely, Clark Gable.

That's something to ponder: what stars are you surprised did not appear as Mystery Guests?

I wouldn't expect Marlon Brando or Katherine Hepburn, but what about Sean Connery. on the release of the first Bond films? Dionne Warwick, Petula Clark? I wonder if there were celebrities they wanted on the show but couldn't get.

R12 thanks—that was me.

R30 He was the weakest part of the already-weakened format of the syndicated version of WML. Goodson and Todman seemed to always want one quick-witted comedian on the WML panel each week. Hence: Hal Block, Steve Allen, Fred Allen, Joey Bishop, Buddy Hackett, etc. Quick-witted didn’t necessarily mean witty; it meant getting a quick laugh based on what was just said. I think that was the intended purpose of Soupy Sales, but his comments misfired nearly all the time. Yet, he was on the panel for the entire 7-year, 5 days a week run of the syndicated version of WML. Perhaps they couldn’t get another comic to play that role as a permanent panel member.

Sean Connery was on.

1965.

Whole show.

R37 Oooops Thanks for that!

Milton really didn't like Dorothy.

I don't see Milton being mean to her. He is just always ON which is typical for a comedian. WTF is wrong with Oscar Levant?

Levant talked publicly about his neuroses and hypochondria. Levant became addicted to prescription drugs and was committed to psychiatric hospitals by his wife.

Peter Gabel was the spitting image of his father in later life.

Peter in 1967

Those glasses do him no favors.

Is it a four-legged animal?

I suspect Dorothy didn't like Miltie. He was undoubtedly too vulgar for her.

The Supremes.

Oscar Levant was a semi-regular member of the panel of Information Please, a radio institution in the 1930s and 40s. If the What's My Line panel was middle America's idea of urbane sophistication in their time, I think the Information Please panel was the same in prior years.

I loved Oscar Levant. Hugely talented and witty. He was the man who knew Doris Day before she was a virgin.

[quote] I suspect Dorothy didn't like Miltie. He was undoubtedly too vulgar for her.

R48 Then she must have HATED Hal Block!

Dorothy says she can smell something burning but no one tells her that Oscar is smoking.

The big necked bee keeper gets whistles.

John won't let go of her hand and then she goes to the wrong exit.

Part 4 of this thread, and no mention yet of the cute singing garbage collectors, who were allowed to do their singing shtick at the end of their segment? (Maybe I missed it.) I caught this last night on Buzzr, which shows B&W episodes of "What's My Line?," "To Tell the Truth" and "I've Got a Secret," including the original commercials, beginning at 4 a.m.

[quote] Buzzr ... shows B&W episodes of "What's My Line?," "To Tell the Truth" and "I've Got a Secret," including the original commercials, beginning at 4 a.m.

If only they weren't the same dozen or so shows.

What’s My Line was way before my time, but I’ve become familiar with it over the years thanks to you guys here. I kept avoiding these threads because I just didn’t think I’d be interested…boy, was I wrong! I started with the first thread on Saturday and now I’m all caught up and have been going down a you tube rabbit hole watching the old clips, and I’ve also been looking up all the celebrities that I didn’t know much about. Faye Emerson? Robert Monkhouse???

It’s been great fun, and I’m now throughly in love with Miss Arlene Francis. Dorothy was kind of annoying but I liked her, too. Everyone, mostly, even the “regular folk” guests, always looked so put together and classy. And I love when there is a handsome guest—that former football player turned charm school operator! What a hunk!

Thanks to you all who have kept these threads going!

whole show

Arlene loves meeting the boys.

We are your jolly "G" men,

We come around each day.

We pick your garbage up for you,

And haul it right away.

We bring a cheerful greeting,

To all you happy folks.

We brighten up your cloudy days,

With little songs and jokes.

And now your cans are empty,

The entertainment's through.

It's time for us to move along,

We bid you all adieu.

Rita Gam as panelist was very cool. I only knew her from King of Kings. Didn't know she was married to a publisher important enough to rival Bennett.

There's a girl in my soup...

R62 and she was one of Grace Kelly's bridesmaids, too.

She was only a panelist on one episode. January 29, 1961.

Rita Gam was Grace Kelly's roommate at The Studio Club when they were young actresses.

In that episode at R59, mystery guest Peggy King, a singer on George Gobel's TV show, is identified on screen as "George Gobel's girl Peggy King."

She was the vocalist on his TV show. But he was already married.

Peggy reminds me of Judy.

[quote]She was the vocalist on his TV show. But he was already married.

Nice job of missing the point, R68.

Pretty Perky Peggy King was her unofficial title.

Those 2 young garbage men were delightful and adorable! And led to some of the funniest questioning ever on the show.

[quote]In that episode at [R59], mystery guest Peggy King, a singer on George Gobel's TV show, is identified on screen as "George Gobel's girl Peggy King."

And performers like Kay Thompson would refer to their dancers as their boys.

And so?

Was Peggy King the girl on the TV show in Behind the Candelabra?

[quote]And performers like Kay Thompson would refer to their dancers as their boys.

These are my boys!

Where is that clip of Dick Kollmar's chorus boy??

skirt blower

The contestant at R77 may indeed be the best one they ever had. Arlene and Bennett's grins showed they knew it was something dirty.

Richard Kollmar.

Garry Moore looks like Daly.

^ Garry Moore hosted a “snoopy kind of show.”

Peter Lomagistro

Any info out there on Art Asquith, the hotter of the two hot singing garbagemen?

I recall that someone related to Art Asquith commented in the comments section of that YouTube video, R83.

More on Art Asquith, who appears to be still alive.

Why couldn't Daly say whether or not Lilly Dache was blonde? in R59.

I think this is finally winding down.

Like Martin Gabel after a hot night with Arlene.

Nothing on Find a Grave R83- so he may still be around.

His wife died, R88, leaving him a widower, in 2019. There's been no obituary for him since then.

If you could invite one, and only one, cast member of WML to dinner which one would you choose? I'm torn between Arlene and Bennett. Both would likely be witty and have stimulating conversation, and both would have a lot of tea to spill. For me, it comes down to which one would actually spill it?

Your thoughts?

An article from 2018 about the garbage collectors.

Ellen Weaver of Olean passed along to us a great story for today’s State & Union.

A graduate of Little Valley Central School, she attended the school’s 119th annual alumni banquet last weekend. The speakers at the event were Harold Sanders, who graduated from Little Valley in 1945, and Arthur “Art” Asquith, who graduated a year later in 1946.

“It was great to hear them,” Ellen says. “My interest was piqued since Art graduated with my late mother, Phyllis Leach Weaver.”

Harold and Art explained that in their college years they worked during the summer collecting garbage in Allegany State Park. Through that experience, they ended up being on an episode of the popular 1950s and ’60s TV show, "What's My Line,” which aired live Aug. 28, 1955, on CBS.

The men had made up a humorous song about being trash collectors and, in a rare move, moderator John Daly let them sing one verse when the panel members, Arlene Francis, Dorothy Kilgallen, Fred Allen and Bennett Cerf, were stumped about their occupations.

Harold and Art, in wonderful tone, sang:

We are two jolly g-men, we come around each day, we pick your garbage up for you and haul it right away.

We bring a cheerful greeting to all you happy folks, we brighten up your cloudy days with little songs and jokes.

And when all your cans are empty, the entertainment’s through, it’s time for us to move along, we bid you all adieu.

Of course, the crowd and panel reacted with delighted applause.

Meanwhile, Ellen tells us, “Those of us at last weekend's alumni banquet were treated to hearing them, in person, sing the other verses of the song in voices that remain strong and clear.”

The episode can be found on YouTube.

Why were they categorized as having a product? Shouldn't they be under performing a service?

I think I'f have to choose Bennett for dinner. Dorothy would spill gossip by the bucketsful, but Bennett hung out with Shaw, Joyce, Lawrence, etc. He tells a great story about George Gershwin, who led his friends (who had been nude sunbathing) to his piano to play excerpts from his latest score— still bare-assed naked.

Now that was a party!

It wasn't polite to speculate on a lady's real hair color.

Or a gentleman's hairline.

R96, Yes ... Bennett is the one to invite if you want gossip on intellectuals.

I, on the other hand, utterly superficial as am, want gossip on celebrities from popular culture. I'd choose Dorothy over Bennett - even though I like Bennett very much and think was was hot in his day - but I'd rather have Arlene to dinner. First of all, any dinner shared by a nobody like me and Bennett will be about Bennett. If ever there was a nice narcissist, it's he. Arlene seems very gracious and would probably take some pains to make me feel at ease. She would also provide a lot of interesting gossip, although I suspect she was quite discreet and would only spill info she wanted to spill. Arlene is also very Broadway, and I want the Hollywood tea. We'd have a great time, though, and would probably laugh ourselves sick.

If what you mainly want is lots of Hollywood and political gossip, Dorothy is your girl, although you'll have to exert a lot of effort to put her at ease and make her trust you. Dorothy is like the striver we all knew in high school - so anxious to be well-liked but also determined to show off. It must have been a constant struggle for her.

Does anyone know if either Bennett or Arlene or JCD were ever interviewed or publicly spoke about Dorothy and her mysterious sudden death? Knowing her somewhat well, I wonder if they were really spooked by her possibly being murdered?

Or did all those theories we've read about how it must have been murder come out many years after her death?

I think the rumors started very quickly, but I also think that if any of the WML people gave them any credence they were smart enough to figure out silence was the best defense.

You certainly wouldn't invite Dorothy if you wanted to have a chinwag.

lol - good one, R103

I don't think Dorothy would need much coercion to gossip. She was a notorious drunk.

Darryl F Zanuck

The big beard gold prospector can't prospect the chalkboard.

[quote] Arlene seems very gracious and would probably take some pains to make me feel at ease.

Arlene had the magic of charm!

Arlene ups her volume once we see that the bearded one is DEAF.

[quote]R62 Rita Gam as panelist was very cool… Didn't know she was married to a publisher important enough to rival Bennett.

She was married to Sidney Lumet, too.

... and was a bridesmaid at Grace Kelly's wedding

R111 meet R64

An old friend of mine who did summer stock with Arlene ages ago (1970!) said she was lovely and everyone just adored her but she had a funny habit of bumming cigarettes off of everyone. She never carried her own in an attempt to quit but.....it didn't work as everyone always obliged her.

I believe Bennett and Random House had a hefty contract with Dorothy on the new book she was writing about the JFK assassination at the time of her murder....um, death.

Can't imagine he wasn't contractually permitted to read any of the drafts but I don't think he ever commented on what she wrote.

^ There was no murder. The imagined global conspiracies of the right & left are just so tiresome.

Wiki says that Dorothy's book Murder One was rumored to have been written by someone else.

Imagine the questions they'd have to ask today to determine if it was a male or female.

According to the YouTube comments the deaf gold prospector is thought to be one of the funniest contestants but I have the feeling people were laughing at his deafness more than his eccentricity.

Mine's natural..

Who knew George Jessel was so popular? And Dana Andrews on the panel? I thought he was a drunk.

Re R106 - Zanuck...speaks...very...slowly

In 1964, Jessel reportedly sexually groped Shirley Temple. According to Temple, he invited her to his office under the guise of discussing a recent role. During their meeting, Jessel put an arm around Temple while taking off his pants. He then grabbed the 35 year-old Temple's breasts. She fought off his attempts by kicking him in the groin. (Wikipedia)

Zanuck! Zanuck! Zanuck! What, are you two having an affair??

Celebrity mystery guests were paid $500 for their appearance on the show in addition to whatever money they might win. They often donated their winnings to charity.

Bennett Cerf once said in an interview that he and his fellow stars were paid in scandalous amounts.

[quote] Bennett Cerf once said in an interview that he and his fellow stars were paid in scandalous amounts.

Well. someone got the money; the contestants certainly didn't.

Boy have you got a crazy sponsor.

Anita Ekberg.

What a rowdy crowd. When Miss Ekberg signed in they went wild.

I've never found Chuck Connors especially attractive, but he's charming and sexy as hell as a panelist on this episode.

R123 "What are you two, lovers?" was the line.

Take the beat, r131. "What are you two...lovers?

R132 I don't recall there having been a beat.

Janet knows.

I stand corrected.

John Daly and the News.

Madden has played John Reid in Rocketman and Ikaris in Eternals. He could be considered A-.

(wrong thread)

[quote]Madden has played John Reid in Rocketman and Ikaris in Eternals. He could be considered A-.

But has he appeared in the legitimate theater?

R139 Haha!

I've never understood - does "the legitimate theatre" refer to Broadway? Or to only straight plays on Broadway? Or to straight plays everywhere? Or to something else?

TIA!

The legitimate theatre.

If it weren't for Dorothy, I would never have known of "longhair" music.

Non-vaudeville, non-burlesque…Broadway or off-Broadway, play or musical.

Steve McQueen.

And you thought Fox News anchors got excited, R136! Daly's style of newscasting seems so strange to me. By the time I was seeing network news shows, well into the '60s, the anchors were as calm, matter-of-fact and unemotional as a typical New York Times news story of the era.

Now, please excuse me. I have to go take some Bisodol for the indigestion I got from Anacin and ReaLemon.

Why is he yelling?

R144 - I believe, for the purist, musicals were excluded as well.

“ Legitimate theatre[a] is live performance that relies almost entirely on diegetic elements, with actors performing through speech and natural movement.[2][3] Traditionally, performances of such theatre were termed legitimate drama,[4][2][3] while the abbreviation the legitimate refers to legitimate theatre or drama and legit is a noun referring both to such dramas and actors in these dramas.[4][5][6] Legitimate theatre and dramas are contrasted with other types of stage performance such as musical theatre, farce, revue, melodrama, burlesque and vaudeville,[1][2] as well as recorded performances on film and television.[1]”

Nonsense from wiki. In no world associated with Broadway would a musical be distinguished from a play on that basis. Pointedly, in the context of WML mystery guests, that pull quote literally makes no sense…nor do you.

Nonsense from R149. Musicals were not considered "legitimate" theater. Remember Noel Coward's famous cable to Gertrude Lawrence on opening in her first straight play: "Legitimate at last won't mother be pleased?"

Peter Gable actually died from complications of Amyloidosis.

More nonsense. The context is mystery guests on a game show. If Arlene asked Gertrude that question, posed to her as a mystery guest, the only possible answer would be “Yes.”

..don’t play stupid on this thread. Can you do that?

R142 How about the illegitimate theater?

Go back and watch every WML available online to see how often that question was asked. Track all of Broadway musical performers who answered that question, and count up Yeses and the Nos. Report back to us.

Hint;99.99% would have answered Yes.

By the time of What's My Line, R152, Gertrude would have been able to legitimately answer yes.

[quote]Now, please excuse me. I have to go take some Bisodol for the indigestion I got from Anacin and ReaLemon.

It's nice to know that all three of those brands still exist.

So, if "legitimate theatre" on WML referred to both straight plays and musicals on Broadway, what were the panelists distinguishing it from? I don't think they meant off-Broadway or regional theater.

Just how many sponsors did the show have over the years?

[quote] Just how many sponsors did the show have over the years?

I associate the early '60s shows with Kellogg's ... of Battle Creek.

R157. Vaudeville, burlesque, tv

A simple question to narrow things down. Similar to are you known for films. Or, if they knew the guest was in tv, they would ask if on the coast, etc. etc. This line of questioning isn’t too difficult to comprehend. Or is it?

[quote]So, if "legitimate theatre" on WML referred to both straight plays and musicals on Broadway, what were the panelists distinguishing it from?

Vaudeville and burly-Q.

[quote]Remember Noel Coward's famous cable to Gertrude Lawrence on opening in her first straight play: "Legitimate at last won't mother be pleased?"

Yes, r150, and I'm also familiar with Gertie's note to a certain Miss Carrington.

Can you imagine Dorothy and Arlene spritzing on some Stoppette?

Does it go under the arms?

[quote]Can you imagine Dorothy and Arlene spritzing on some Stoppette?

You didn't spritz, r164, you...poofed.

Mr Stopette had Man Power.

Shampoo With Egg

Stopette was pre-aerosol!

In the R145 show has Daly put on weight or is his jacket just bulky?

[quote]Peter Gable actually died from complications of Amyloidosis.

Who was he--Clark's son?

[quote]Vaudeville and burly-Q.

Somethin' wrong with STRIPPIN'?

I'd have thought Steve McQueen would have had his arm twisted mightily to drag his hot ass over to WML in 1966 to publicize The Sand Pebbles but he's actually quite game and eager to stump the panel and charm the audience.

Fun clip! Shows how WML was still bringing in the biggest stars of the moment in its final years.

Since he pretended to be Walter Brennan here's the real Walter Brennan.

Dr. Tom Dooley is ready to fly right outta there.

Walter Brennan 3 time Academy Award winner. Only 2 other male actors Daniel Day-Lewis and Jack Nicholson have won that many.

When I first watched that Dr. Tom Dooley WML clip years ago, it set me on a search for info about the man. Absolutely fascinating! Can't believe there hasn't been a film about him.

Or has there? Great gay American story that needs to be remembered.

Tom Dooley would be dead within 14 months of the airing of his appearance on WML.

I'm not sure it's as great a story as you think R177. He made a lot up. For instance:

In one long passage, he described a priest who, he said, had been hung by his feet and beaten for defying a Viet Minh order to stop saying Mass at night. When Dooley encountered him, he was “lying on a bamboo stretcher, writhing in agony, his lips moving in silent prayer. When I pulled away the dirty blanket, I found that his body was a mass of blackened flesh from the shoulders to the knees. The belly was hard and distended, and the scrotum swollen to the size of a football. I gave him a shot of morphine and inserted a large needle in the scrotum in an attempt to draw off some of the fluid.”

Dooley provided a compelling catalogue of horrors. But, as U.S. officials knew early on, the horrors were completely unsubstantiated. None of Dooley’s correspondence, official or personal, describes the atrocities, that, in his book, he attributes to the communists. There are no corroborating accounts in the war diaries kept by Navy commanders nor in anything Dooley wrote during the operation."

[quote]Fun clip! Shows how WML was still bringing in the biggest stars of the moment in its final years.

No other game show got the big names that WML was able to.

Password actually also did pretty well in that department but nothing compared to WML.

Not to go off track, but how's this for an odd game show guest:

If Dooley was a fake, it would make an even better movie.

What I like was how the country was so much less news obsessed. They could have high ranking politicians on and the panel still wouldn't recognize them.

[quote]I'm not sure it's as great a story as you think [R177]. He made a lot up.

Is that so wrong?

R182 I think you're making an incorrect assumption about the country having been less news obsessed.

Yes. Because during this period the nightly news wasn't just 15 minutes long. Plus I believe it was 1953 when CNN, FOX, MSNBC, ANN, The Drudge Report, and widespread use of the internet started. You are correct. I retract my statement. They did consume just as much news.

There were many sides to Dooley's story -I think it would make an excellent mini-series or limited cable show. Now, which handsome shirtless hunk should be cast in the role?

Timothee!

1953? I hope that was a typo and not what you really believe.....or maybe it's just the punctuation.....

Learn about sarcasm, r188.

Yeah, I think exploring Dooley's lies would only enhance his story.

r180, Sondheim barely even needed Lee's clues to guess the answers.

It also helped that they were extremely close friends, R191. At one point they even considered marriage (knowing his sexuality).

I love Sondheim's bohemian intellectual hair style and upper east side accent.

[quote]Password actually also did pretty well in that department but nothing compared to WML.

But they never got Ann Miller!

[quote]Asked what she was doing for Passover, Ann reportedly replied, “I don’t do game shows.”

There was already a song.

[quote]R122 During their meeting, Jessel put an arm around Temple while taking off his pants. He then grabbed the 35 year-old Temple's breasts.

Trivia (not related to grabbing)

David O. Selznick hired model Anita Colby to help style his female stars’ images. Assessing the grown Temple, she noted the actress had the most beautiful breasts in Hollywood. “Better than Monroe, better than anybody.”

You're kidding, right, r195?

He's only a century or so off R197

Anita Colby...

Rochester.

The Texan fire hydrant salesman is cute.

I'm not r195, but I remember as a child that Kingston Trio song coming out around the time of Dr. Tom Dooley's fame and thinking it was about the same person. I doubt I was alone.

Stephen Sondheim never met a shampoo he liked (or used).

These WML threads are so damned civilized we haven't even gotten to Arlene Francis' 2 murders yet.

R185 I'll try not to be as sarcastic as you were. In the 50's, everyone read newspapers. There were multiple newspapers in big cities, and there were multiple editions of most papers every day. There were also many popular news magazines, there were newsreel theaters, and there was radio. People were very well informed.

I always got him mixed up with Howdy Dooley.

A newsstand in the '60s.

[quote]What I like was how the country was so much less news obsessed.

True.

We got 2 different Philadelphia newspapers a day. And the weekly Look magazine and Life Magazine. That I think was pretty standard at the time.

You watched the nightly news, but it was brief and the presentation was dry.

It can't even begin to compare with what we have to today, how we are inundated with information 24 hours a day, and with easy reach...just take your phone out of your pocket.

R205 the younger, the more stupid...thus it ever was.

Especially on TTTT & IGaS, I've noticed that the panelists did not recognize lots of athletes, either current or from the past. I think their images - if not names - were not then as prominently on display.

R209 I was born in the '50s. If you mean me.

Personally I find younger people to be less well informed than my parents and relatives were. Maybe they weren't news "obsessed" but then I don't know too many people who are that, now. Just because it's there, 24/7, doesn't mean people are obsessed with it.

Dorothy Kilgallen surely wouldn't have been uninformed about current events. Otherwise you shouldn't make assumptions about "people" based on an actress, a publisher, and some actors and comedians on one network game show.

Arlene was framed, R204!

R211 my comment wasn’t diereted at you?! Put on your readers…

[quote]r204 we haven't even gotten to Arlene Francis' 2 murders yet.

Did she kill somebody when her trademark diamond heart pendant was ripped from her neck??

Her two “murders”? One involved a car accident on a slick road (leading her to sustain a concussion which may or may not have triggered her eventual Alzheimer’s). The other involved some heavy object that fell to the ground from her high-rise apartment while she was not home, killing a passerby tourist from Detroit in NYC to celebrate a milestone birthday.

Was Arlene the real JFK assassin??

If you can believe it, until the 1960s most major league athletes had other (non-sports related) jobs during the seasons their sports weren't in play. And I believe seasons and training time were somewhat shorter.

Not sure what this has to do with anything but it might interest the younger DLers and nelly queens here.

Trivia: At the time of Arlene's car accident, she was appearing on Broadway in "Tchin-Tchin." She and Jack Klugman were co-starring; they were replacements for originals Margaret Leighton and Anthony Quinn.

[quote] The other involved some heavy object that fell to the ground from her high-rise apartment while she was not home, killing a passerby tourist from Detroit in NYC to celebrate a milestone birthday.

The next day, June 23rd, which just happened to be his birthday, the couple decided to have lunch at the Le Pavillon restaurant at 111 E. 57th St, which is right off of Park Ave. It was about seven minutes walking distance away...

At around 2 PM in the afternoon, Mr. and Mrs. Rodecker finished their meal and exited the restaurant. “Holy cow, that was expensive,” Mr. Rodecker commented to his wife. He added, “But it was worth it. We’re really celebrating.”...

Those were the last words Alvin Rodecker ever spoke. Something fell from the sky and he was knocked out cold on the sidewalk and was bleeding badly.

...it was an 8-pound dumbbell. You know, the type that guys use to build up muscles to impress the ladies.

Mr. Rodecker was rushed to the hospital but, sadly, he didn’t make it...he succumbed to his injuries the very next day.

So where did the killer dumbbell come from? It turns out that the Le Pavillon restaurant was located on the ground floor of Manhattan’s ritziest apartment buildings – the aptly named Ritz Tower – the 41-story home to many people of fortune and fame. And eight floors directly above the exterior canopy of the restaurant was the apartment of actress Arlene Francis and her husband theatrical producer Martin Gabel. Both are virtually forgotten today but were very well-known back then.

The couple was not in the apartment at the time of the incident. For the previous three weeks, they had been staying in their Mt. Kisco, NY home, which was a bit closer to the Westport, Connecticut summer stock play that Miss Francis was performing in.

Since they knew that their Ritz Tower apartment was going to be unused during this period, the couple decided to get their broken air conditioner fixed. It was a large window unit that left a gaping hole in the window frame when it was removed. To resolve this problem, a temporary screen was installed, but it didn’t sit well in the opening. As a result, two 8-pound dumbbells were wrapped in towels and propped against the screen to keep it firmly in place. Keep in mind that the dumbbells of this time period were all round – they weren’t the flat-sided polygons so commonly used today – that means that they can roll easily.

As you have probably guessed, some sort of action set one of these dumbbells in motion. Investigators quickly learned that Ms. Francis’ secretary Muriel Fleit decided that this particular screen needed cleaning and the maid Effie Turner started to remove it from the window.

As she did so, one of the dumbbells came unwrapped from its towel and rolled across the window ledge. Effie made a quick grab for it, but she was unable to stop its forward momentum. The dumbbell was now in a state of freefall – right down to the sidewalk below where it struck Mr. Rodecker with that fatal blow to his skull.

A few days later, Ms. Francis was scheduled to appear on the TV show “What’s My Line”, a show on which she was a regular panelist from 1950 to 1975...

In Ms. Francis’ 1978 autobiography, she writes “I was called in Westport, and I came to New York immediately, shattered and unbelieving and covered with guilt. The latter was not because anyone was trying to attach any blame to me, but it was my room, they were my dumbbells, and I couldn’t help feeling that, however inadvertently, I had been responsible for someone’s death.”

Two weeks after the accident, the district attorney’s office announced that after a thorough investigation, it was concluded that there was no evidence of criminal neglect. It was simply an accident stemming from a bizarre sequence of events.

While there was clearly no criminal guilt here, lawsuits certainly did follow. A suit was filed by Mrs. Rodecker in the New York State Supreme Court on January 11th of 1962 against Arlene Francis, her husband Martin Gabel, and the Ritz Towers Hotel for $500,000.

On June 20th, 1962 it was announced that an out-of-court settlement was reached. The couple agreed to pay Katherine Rodecker $175,000, which was covered by their insurance policy. The apartment building coughed up an additional $10,000, for a grand total of $185,000. Mrs. Rodecker’s lawyers took their cut of $41,000. At first glance, $185,000 may not seem like a lot of money for the death of a spouse, but that translates into about $1.4 million dollars in 2012 funds.

.....

[quote]At the time of Arlene's car accident

Fun fact: Arlene's car was a 1962 Oldsmobile 98 convertible

Does one regularly lift this at a gymnasium or reducing spa?

Didn't Arlene and Martin already feel bad enough about the tragedy without that "Both are virtually forgotten today but were very well-known back then," jab??

[quote]R220 Ms. Francis’ secretary Muriel Fleit decided that this particular screen needed cleaning and the maid Effie Turner started to remove it from the window.

I hope fuckin’ Muriel got her OCD ass FIRED… but we all know it was probably hapless Effie who was let go.

Arlene told Muriel - I'm not mad at you. I'm mad at the dumbbells.

Arlene was from Boston, and you can’t trust a Boston driver.

[quote]Didn't Arlene and Martin already feel bad enough about the tragedy without that "Both are virtually forgotten today but were very well-known back then," jab??

That was the real crime here! Arlene, forgotten? Not until the last DL-er has posted his last post.

Texas sheep and goat rancher.

[quote] Didn't Arlene and Martin already feel bad enough about the tragedy without that "Both are virtually forgotten today but were very well-known back then," jab??

Since the source was from 2013, I don't think either would have been aware of the slight.

And as everyone knows, Arlene Francis and Martin Gabel remain household names long after their death.

...or deaths.

Photos of Arlene's car accident and of Muriel Fleit, as well as dumbbell victim Alvin Rodecker.

"Homebound Senior Muriel Fleit enjoying a time of conversation with Kathleen Turner, actress, volunteer and friendly visitor to Muriel."

(Scroll down)

Gary Cooper

R223, but what color? Here's one in white.

Very snazzy car.

R173, the most unexpected people were WML fans. Last night, I saw Charles Laughton in a 1960 episode. At the end, he made a point of saying that he and his wife never missed the show and loved the panel. He was emphatic about it.

Maybe Steve McQueen watched – or had watched at some point – WML and liked it.

R237 It was a white convertible. There are two photos and descriptions of the cars in my post R234. The other car looked destroyed.

R181, I agree! It would be much more interesting that a hagiography, but in the current political climate any effort to portray Dooley as anything less than saintly – or, at a minimum, purely a victim of homophobia to explain his fakery – would fail. If it were made, a truly honest biopic of Dooley would be condemned by chorus of strident voices, including many here at the DL. Best to leave it alone.

Sadly, Dooley knew he was dying when appeared on WML. The surgery he had shortly before the episode had revealed advanced melanoma. He knew the prognosis was poor; being a physician, he would have understood better than most what that meant.

R205, all true. What we didn’t have was social media, so most people’s opinions stayed appropriately private. Also, the standards for public expression and the expectation of respect for public officials were much higher than today. People were interested in the news and kept up with it, probably in a better informed way than today, but the obsessive and one-sided discussion of political minutiae and public expression of rude, ugly and violent opinions were impossible because there was no mechanism for such things.

It was truly a more civilized time, even with all the faults of the era.

Her right arm in a cast, Arlene returns three weeks later after her deadly car accident.

Being informed does not equal news cycle obsessed.

R237 Actually I'm wrong about the model.

It is a 1962 Oldsmobile convertible but judging from the photo at the link at R234 it is not a 98, it's a Starfire.

The Starfire was meant to compete with the Chrysler 300 letter series and the Pontiac GrandPrix. It was a top-of-the-line luxury/sports model.

Olds was the sponsor in 1962 of the Gary Moore Show (as well as the Miss America Pageant). Florence Henderson was spokesperson for the car, had been since the late 1950s.

Here's Gary, Florence and the Starfire.

[quote] All very true. Although, instead of the "public square" of social media, there was literally the public square. I remember being a kid and seeing people making speeches and having political arguments on the Boston Common. There was a tree stump where people would just get up and start making a speech. That doesn't happen any more.

Arlene Francis is gay and bright on camera, but in private life tragedy pursues her.

For R249 ^^

R247 = Sybil the soothsayer.

R236 - the bearded whaling captain is handsome.

Kitty fills in for Arlene the day of her deadly accident. John announced "the unhappy news" that Arlene was "hurt" that day in an automobile accident. He added that "I'm sure that you all will join us in hoping that her place on the panel will very soon find Arlene sitting there." I guess "thoughts & prayers" weren't in the common vernacular in 1963.

and he nods to the panel as he exits as if they are royalty.

What does a helicopter stewardess...do?

R248

?

Sybil the Soothsayer is a reference to the 1976 film, Network. It's a great film and well worth seeking out. Back when it was released it was absurdist theater. Now, we look back on it as prescient!

R254 I've seen it. The reference isn't familiar. But anyway, what does it have to do with my post?

R252 based on the wolf whistles she is very accommodating.

R247, your post references a post not yet then in existence.

It's not like a helicopter has an aisle for a beverage cart, r256.

[quote]The other car looked destroyed.

The other car is a 1963 Rambler, no match for Arlene's huge Oldsmobile.

Arlene was driving her agent's car.

No match for Arlene's agent's huge Oldsmobile.

C'mon kids, Arlene would want us to remember the good times.

Arlene can show you FOUR GAY NEW IDEAS!

She would shill for anything!

A gal's gotta eat.

I sent that out as a Christmas card one year, r263.

R250 - Is it a coincidence that Kitty Carlisle has a ballpark resemblance to Arlene?

I don't see it, R267.

There is so much about WML that would make an incredible multi-part documentary. There could be episodes devoted to Arlene, Bennett, Dorothy and JCD, one to all the mystery guests, one to the funniest occupations, etc. All the material is already out there . Bennett and Dorothy's children could be interviewed. I wonder if Netflix could see the potential and if it would be popular?

Well, it would certainly be popular with Dataloungers!

Yeah a resemblance if Arlene got hit in the face with a ball from the park.

Contrast & compare...

R272 Thanks! That was cool.

Arlene looks more face-lifted than Kitty and seems older

there was a contestant who was a fitness trainer but she was as big as a house. Wish I could find that episode.

Patrice Munsel and her little dog.

I think it was Patrice Munsel who my mom disliked. Yeah, because she was always doing summer stock musicals in our area. I mean she was the one I was thinking of.

As an eldergay I'd have to admit Patrice Munsel's fame would probably be very difficult to explain to younger folk watching that WML clip, but she was an enormously popular celebrity in the 1950s. Though a Metropolitan Opera star, she had a reputation as an earthy and funny woman, who often sung popular music and also appeared in theater, TV and night clubs, a rare combo back then and perhaps still today.

Years ago (1970) I was an apprentice at a summer stock theater where she came through in a touring production of I Do! I Do!, billed alone above the title, even though it's a two hander. I remember her as a real trouper, very friendly and accessible and actually quite wonderful in the show., Her co-star was the handsome B movie star Kerwin Matthews who had delighted me as a gayling in the film The 7th Voyage of Sinbad the Sailor. He wasn't so bad either.

[quote]Patrice Munsel and her little dog.

Her little dog too?

I saw Patrice Munsell on B'way in the 1970s in a musical revue with John Raitt, Tammy Grimes, Dick Shawn and Lillian Gish. How's that for a line-up.

Not a pretty face.

Never mind, I think it was Roberta Peters my mom didn't care for.

On ed Sullivan.

Don't care for her dress and she doesn't quite make the high note at the end.

I have to laugh when she pauses before the end as if to say - what till you hear this!

...wait...

[quote]Never mind, I think it was Roberta Peters my mom didn't care for.

Could it have been Anna Moffo?

Miss Munsel's bus and truck MAME came through town and I helped out backstage as a dresser. Say what you will, but that gal was a trouper. Also she seems to have been a good fit for Carlotta.

Roberta seemed like a nice lady.

[quote]Could it have been Anna Moffo?

Or Florence Foster Jenkins?

What about Helen Traubel and Eileen Farrell? They were all over early TV variety hours, Miss Farrell well into the 1980s.

[quote]Her co-star was the handsome B movie star Kerwin Matthews who had delighted me as a gayling in the film The 7th Voyage of Sinbad the Sailor. He wasn't so bad either.

Kerwin was gay too, ya know.

Don't think I knew that at the time, r291. I was a teenaged apprentice and he never came onto me.

Did he show you his sword, r292?

No, it was Roberta Peters...I got them mixed up. Peters did do some summer theater after her opera career.

I saw Peters in Detroit in what might be the worst opera ever written, Menotti's THE LAST SAVAGE. Not sure if it's ever performed these days.

Roberta Peters hit me in the head with a fondue pot.

When Kerwin Mathews died at age 81 in 2007, he was survived by his partner of 46 years, whom he had met in 1961. Mathews ran an antique shop after retiring from acting.

Antique store in the front, tearoom in the rear.

What would have been the harm in giving Kerwin Matthews billing over the title in I Do! I Do! with Munsel?

It would've implied that he was a top.

....

Roberta Peters > Roberta Sherwood

Gordon looking jowly.

Gordon had started packing on pounds after "Oklahoma!" and didn't have time to slim down before being called at the last minute to replace Frank Sinatra in "Carousel."

R277, thank you for the explanation. I am an eldergay (born 1957), but I guess not elder enough to have seen Miss Munsel on television during my childhood. My mother, who liked opera and followed adult popular culture closely right through the ‘60s, would have known who she was, but apparently the occasion to “introduce” me to her never came up. Neither her name nor her face rang even the faintest bells for me when I saw her episode, unlike the other opera stars mentioned above, all of whom are at least somewhat familiar names. Patrice Munsel seemed very nice, funny and down-to-earth person; no wonder she was well-liked by the public.

My introduction to Patrice Munsel was when she sang around the campfire with the Campfire Girls.

Gordon my be jowly there but Yul Brynner never sang those pretty notes in "Shall We Dance?"

For that matter, neither did Gertrude Lawrence.

I didn't need to, r308, I was incandescent on stage.

[quote]R234 Photos of Arlene's car accident and of Muriel Fleit

Was she heiress to the vast Fleet Enema empire?

The congressional pageboy wears fruit loops.

I don't know why Daly is so astounded that Dorothy guesses Peter Lawford. He uses his own speaking voice and it is quite distinctive.

We're you born on the continent?

Miss Universe 1963, hosted by John Daly and Miss Arlene Francis!

MC on stage: it’s Gene Rayburn

For someone who fancied himself a serious newsman, John certainly did a lot of slumming.

[quote]Miss Universe 1963, hosted by John Daly and Miss Arlene Francis!

"Does the service you provide involve wearing a tiara?"

A direct line from Arlene to Trump ;)

Bennet Cerf and Kitty Carlisle were judges for the Miss America pageant, back when it was a big deal.

Hard to believe today, but the 1962 Miss America pageant is still ranked as one of the most highly watched TV broadcasts of all time.

R318. John Daly hosted the first televised Miss America, won by Miss California-Catwoman Lee Meriwether.

The highest rated pageant in Nielsen history

Ex-c-u-u-u-s-e me, r319, you mean Lee *Ann* Meriwether.

Lee Ann *Cat* Meriwether

Pat was the merriest widow of all at Lincoln Center.

And unlike other ladies, when you hear Pat belting, it's not because her voice dropped or she'd lost her upper register. She'd go back and forth between the two registers pretty seamlessly, even post-menopause.

There was obit on her somewhere that mentioned she had a pet ocelot that she'd take on tour with her and she liked nude sunbathing. I'm sure she'd have loved the DL.

Pat has interviews with Betty Rogge AND Bobbi Wygant on YouTube. She was on the road a LOT.

The Miss America video reminded me what an important event that was in many households, including mine in suburban Detroit. We CARED who won and took so much of that cheesy grandeur seriously. When Miss Michigan won in 1961, it was just about a holiday in our home. We even stood in line months later when she appeared in Cobo Hall, just to walk pass her on her throne to bask in her smile. Yikes. And the winner was always a celeb. Look how often they appeared on WML, especially if one of the cast members was a judge. Do they even broadcast the ceremony now?

Arlene tells the Statue of Liberty Elevator Operator to loosen up, boy!

Just for R324. The future Mrs. Jim Lange, Miss Michigan is the winner—one of the you youngest-ever winners.

She went hippie, sort of…got her teaching credential from Berkeley in the 60s. ;)

R324, At the end of every year, Variety would publish the top rated 100 television shows of the year.

The top 5 would always include the Academy Awards, the Miss America Pageant, a World Series game, a Bob Hope Special and the Super Bowl.

Another eldergay who religiously watched the Miss America pageant as a tiny gayling and really thought the winner was the female counterpart to the POTUS.

I'm watching Mission: Impossible. Lee Ann Meriwether is in a cell and Cinnamon has to pretend to be her. So from what I can tell, Cinnamon has a Lee Ann Meriwether mask on and a Cinnamon mask over that.

R324, I have similar memories. My parents didn't care much about Miss America, but my grandparents did, and I watched at their house, with the bonus that they had a color TV before we did. Miss America in color! I would get excited and look forward to watching for days ahead of time. The Miss America pageant was right up there with the Academy Awards and Christmas Eve as red-letter nights in my childhood life.

Are there any comparable televised events today besides the Super Bowl? I think the SB is the only remaining national TV event, which is why I think it should move to Monday and be made a national holiday. We need as many unifying experiences as possible in our fragmented and fractious society.

Thanks, r330. I used to get teary when Bert Parks sang that theme song.. This isn't to say my family wasn't sensitive to the camp appeal of the how. Some of the talent portions were hilariously bad.

[quote] I used to get teary when Bert Parks sang that theme song.

Yeah, me too. It still makes me a little moist-eyed because of the nostalgia.

As for the camp appeal, you had to know my grandmother. She would have been right at home on the DL in that there was nothing and no one she wouldn't mock except her own family; we were exempt. Her harsh and hilarious judgments of the various Miss America contestants were a highlight of the ceremony for little me.

Bert Parks was the host of the pilot episode of Hollywood Squares.

I would watch the pageants with my parents as a kid. I recall that each year my individual pick from the first presentation of the candidates would end up either the winner to the runner up. My mom picked up on my strange talent after a few times and would applaud when my choice would wind at the top at the end.

[quote]Another eldergay who religiously watched the Miss America pageant as a tiny gayling and really thought the winner was the female counterpart to the POTUS.

LOL. True!

R333, Bert Parks replaced Robert Preston in The Music Man on Broadway.

Actually, r336, it was Preston, Eddie Albert, Preston (again) and then Parks.

[quote]Yeah, me too. It still makes me a little moist-eyed because of the nostalgia.

Ok if you want to get teary eyed watch the clip below.

1971 gave us Follies but over at the Miss America Pageant in 1970 they did a segment that eerily echos a theme of that show's story.

Go over to 5:09 of the video and be sure to watch to the end at 9:34.

It is a scene right out of Follies' "Beautiful Girls"

Hmmmm......Bess Myerson and Marilyn VanDebur were most noticeably absent form that lineup.

Bess did host the show many times though, however in 1969 she became head of the NYC Department of Consumer Affairs. She probably no longer wanted to be associated with pageants and game shows.

Did Bess Myerson or Betsy Palmer ever appear on WML on the panel or as a mystery guest?

The Betsy

Betsy as panelist.

Post IGaS, Bess & Betsy together again, joining forces in 1970 in opposition to the Vietnam War.

R318 People always watched Miss America. I mean, what was there to watch? YouTube, Netflix? If we didn't want to watch what little there was on TV, we had to play the radio, or a record - or read.

Red buttoned.

I probably watch at least 50 episodes of WML over the last several months. It's entertaining, at times educational and somewhat nostalgic.

Handsome Arnold Palmer.

Wally Bruner the host of the syndicated WML from 1968-72 married one of the contestants.

Richard Dawson also married a Family Feud contestant.

Wally Bruner resembled Charlie Gibson of GMA/ABC News fame.

Those are my random thoughts about old gameshows for today.

[quote] Wally Bruner the host of the syndicated WML from 1968-72 married one of the contestants.

Is the episode where they met on YouTube? I don't think it is.

R348 second player is Michael Jackson! No, not him. This is a cutie rock'n'roll disc jockey.

[quote]Wally Bruner the host of the syndicated WML from 1968-72 married one of the contestants.

[quote]Richard Dawson also married a Family Feud contestant.

Exactly how did that happen? The contestants don't really get one on one time with the host..

This Michael Jackson? Any L.A. eldergay knew him from talk radio…

Family Feud contestants swapped spit with Richard Dawson. All that kissing was disgusting. He actually stopped kissing the contestants after he married the contestant at his contestant wife's request.

I'm sure both Wally and Richard would have had no problem getting contact info for a contestant that sparked their interest.

R246

[quote] Red Buttons

That cunt

That's OSCAR winner Red Buttons!

Do you do this near or in water?

R354 that kissing was gross and who knows what got transmitted

[quote]R340 Bess did host the show many times though, however in 1969 she became head of the NYC Department of Consumer Affairs. She probably no longer wanted to be associated with pageants and game shows.

Maybe THEY didn’t want to be associated with a shoplifting jailbird?

—————

[italic]”Myerson allegedly stole $44 worth of nail polish, batteries, earrings and shoes from a department store in Williamsport in May while she was going to visit her boyfriend, Carl Capasso, who is imprisoned for tax fraud.”

That was many, many years later. Duh.

Can that dog Dotty play the piano? I didn't think so.

Betsy...

Has there been a Bess Myerson biopic? There should be. She lived at least four lives.

Frank Fontaine.

I just know if I had finally gotten a ticket to attend a taping of What's My Line?, instead of a Sofia Loren or a Bette Davis as Mystery Guest, I would have gotten Frank Fontaine.

The Crazy Guggenheim character was one of my earliest memories.

Dorothy stands for the 77 year old chiropractor in R364

R364, back then people in their 70s & beyond were afforded a level of respect that is no longer displayed.

Frank Fontaine was a big fella. And 11 children!

If I had gotten tickets I would have gotten that nobody her brought her little dog with her.

Especially in the early years, the mystery guests seemed to enjoy not being identified. That seemed to change.

Maybe that's because in the early years the mystery guests sometimes weren't that famous.

I was thinking about that. If a celebrity wanted to be identified or not. I think I'd be insulted if they didn't get me. LOL

In Gil Fates book, he wrote about Bob Hope being pissed because the panel pretended not to recognize who he was, thereby limiting the time he had to promote his upcoming project.

There were some celebrities that were just hysterical as mystery guests. There voices were just so distinctive. Bette Davis, Joan Crawford, Lucy, John Wayne, some others too. Lucy was the most obvious.

The syndicated show had to scrape the bottom of the barrel at times to fill the mystery guest slot. And then, because of the contestant demonstrations John would never allow, the panel often only had a couple of minutes to guess the identity of the “celebrity.”

Re R348 can see why Dina Merrill was said to be the new Grace Kelly.

Dina Merrill was well on her way to being A list. Then she just gave up. She was pretty honest about having too much money to be as hungry as other actresses in getting parts. She didn't have to put up with the crap. About two years ago she was my internet obsession.

That bow on Arlene's dress in R348 looks like it's attacking her.

Do you have change for the pay phone?

R369, Frank Fontaine is buried in a Medford, MA cemetery in the same row as my aunt.

R378, Dina Merrill lived to 93 and still remained attractive.

Her husband.

People magazine

So. Are you all done?

Who thought this was a good idea?

Did I ever meet you in a bar in Tijuana?

I pass.

I pass.

I endorsed.

Are you currently a favorite of the bobby-soxer crowd?

Was Barbara Eden ever on the show? Saw a great interview with her today that was done on her 92nd birthday. She still looks fabulous and shows no signs of mental loss.

No.

At least in the earlier years, WML played up the contestants trying to fool the panelists - & win their meager cash prizes. As the years went by that aspect of the game, like the walk by & free guess, that went by the wayside.

R394, Those were time saving eliminations.

R394, $50.00 in 1955 would be $575.00 in 2024.

[quote] $50.00 in 1955 would be $575.00 in 2024.

Not exactly the competing $64,000, though.

Yeah, you have to remember that WML smartly rode out the huge quiz show scandals of the mid-1950s, so even if (supposedly) Steve Allen might have been given some hints about his line of questioning to make things funnier, the show stayed on the up and up and survived.

Aha found the chubby dietician at a reducing farm.

[quote]Was Barbara Eden ever on the show? Saw a great interview with her today that was done on her 92nd birthday. She still looks fabulous and shows no signs of mental loss.

Not that there was much to lose.

R392 . . .

R399 - followed by the curvaceous stockbroker.

No Vivian Vance?

You rang?

The makeup man seems to have over-powdered Arlene in R399

The shortie lighthouse keeper reminds me of William Shatner.

"Does your service bring pleasure to people in one of the large theaters on Broadway?"

Thanks, r404!

[quote]"Does your service bring pleasure to people in one of the large theaters on Broadway?"

"Yes. It's called the Gaiety."

Would I get strange looks if I carried your product down 5th Ave.?

What about Amsterdam Ave. ("shudder")?

Fellow murderer, Robert Blake, preceded him by one year!

Are we wearing blindfolds because one or more of us would recognize you instantly?

The lyrics to Sammy Davis's version of The Lady Is a Tramp includes a nod to our Dorothy.

R392: Why must people bring a relative nobody like her into this. "I Dream of Jeannie" was generations ago and a cheap knockoff of "Bewitched".

Do you live in a bottle?

R415 And is it bigger than a bread box?

Have you recently, say within the last six months, played a manicurist on The Andy Griffith show?

How very dare you, R414!?! My god! Barbara Eden was a guest star on I Love Lucy. Doesn't that entitle her to a modicum of respect on DL? She was in classic films like Will Success Spoil Rock Hunter, Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea, Five Weeks in a Balloon, The Wonderful World of the Brothers Grimm, The Brass Bottle... Those films are much loved (or at least talked about) here. Not to mention Harper Valley PTA or the camp classic The Stranger Within! Hell, she was even in a TV version of Kismet where she got to snuggle up to DL fave George Chakiris. What's My Line certainly had mystery guests with fewer IMDB credits and/or less popular appeal.

Climb down off your high horse, bub.

Don't forget Jeannie's Fifty Load Weekend.

Did a famous red head once bedazzle a piece of your wardrobe?

R418 WML didn't a lot of sitcom actors unless they were previously stars in film or theatre.

[quote][R418] WML didn't a lot of sitcom actors unless they were previously stars in film or theatre.

LEGITIMATE theatre!

"Didn't [get] a lot of sitcom actors" is not the same as "Never had," R421. The point is, they did have TV people on. Barbara Eden could easily have been on the panel for an episode. She was a familiar TV face, even in those pre-Jeannie days. I am not suggesting she would have been a brilliant player (who knows?) -just that her appearance on the show in one form or another would hardly have raised eyebrows.

Barbara Eden would have been the first mystery guest they didn't need a blindfold for.

I recall this ABC Movie of the Week earning a huge rating in 1971.

The Edenites have landed.

Was Grace Kelly ever a guest?

No.

Thanks, r428.

But Grace was alluded to several times because of the Royal Wedding, one of that era's biggest events. I remember the news coverage vividly, Dorothy attended, of course. Did Arlene? If not, she must have been pissed.

[quote] She was a familiar TV face, even in those pre-Jeannie days.

No she was not.

Not enough of a star to be a household name or a Mystery Guest on WML?

There were no movies starring Barbra Eden. No B'Way plays or musicals. There was a sitcom before Jeannie but it was in syndication not a network show and it made zero impact.

Millionaire...

[quote]Barbara Eden reflects on her classic TV series "How To Marry A Millionaire?" - documentary interview

It wasn't a "classic" tv series.

It was not a network show and was never even shown in most markets. It was short lived and never even shown in reruns.

It was aired on the NTA Film Network...have you ever even heard of it?

Hey, r433, chill. I never called it a classic and only posted it because it's an enjoyable interview. Oh, and by the way...yes I was familiar with it.

R378 Grace Kelly could act.

I am so freaking impressed that you whores managed to get 4 about to enter 5 threads out of this topic. Bravo!!!👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏

Actually, How to Marry a Millionaire only ever seemed to be shown in reruns. I can remember watching it on many Sunday afternoons in my long ago misspent youth. But I agree, it was never a hit show, lasted only one season, and Barbara Eden only became a TV star with I Dream of Jeannie.

I agree with the upthread poster who said that WML mystery guests were never (well, very rarely) TV stars unless they'd previously been movie or radio stars, like Ann Sothern, Lucy, Walter Brennan, Robert Young & Jane Wyatt, Ozzie & Harriet, Anne Jeffreys & Robert Sterling. Even when Richard Chamberlain appeared he did so with his Dr. Kildare co-star Raymond Massey.

Come to think of it, Vince Edwards, star of TV's Ben Casey was one of the rare TV star exceptions.

"Grace Kelly could act."

Sez you

Laurence Harvey primping his hair is funny.

a pity nothing else he does is funny.

Not only that, R440, it’s not his hair.

I'm amazed (well, not really... this is DL) at how a simple question about whether Barbara Eden ever appeared on What's My Line has devolved into so much bitterness. By the time of the syndicated version of the show she certainly could have been on as either a panelist or mystery guest. Since she evidently never did, it's not really a point worth fighting over. Even on Datalounge.

Was there ever a Mystery Guest who was the star of a syndicated TV show on an independent network? No.

R443, Not during the original run, 1950-1967.

What is considered an independent network?

Robert Taylor hosted and sometimes starred in Death Valley Days, a syndicated show.

(Taylor hosted 1966-69, during the syndicated run.)

[quote]Was there ever a Mystery Guest who was the star of a syndicated TV show on an independent network?

There was no such thing as an "independent network" in the '50s. And arguably there has never been. If it's a network, it's not "independent."

When Reagan ran for Governor, he was replaced by others including Rosemary DeCamp, who had done 20 Mule Team Borax commercials on the show.

The biggest syndicated shows during WML's run were probably "Highway Patrol" with Broderick Crawford, who had had featured roles in films and "Sea Hunt" with Lloyd Bridges, who had had small roles in films and starred in some Grade Z features. Neither seems to have appeared on WML.

[quote] There was no such thing as an "independent network" in the '50s. And arguably there has never been. If it's a network, it's not "independent."

There was the DuMont network.

R437, Raymond Burr also appeared; ditto Richard Chamberlain and Raymond Massey (linked below because I think the Burr episode has been linked already in one of the threads). Even so, you're right that there were relative few television actors compared to other media. I don’t think it was entirely anti-TV snobbery. What was Arlene, after all, but a TV star? Without her television work, nobody outside New York (and few New Yorkers, for that matter) would have had the slightest idea who she was. And Bennett became the household name he was – enabling all those lecture tours – because of WML. Otherwise, he would have been no better known than any other big-time publisher.

One reason for the lack of TV people was probably geographic. By 1960, nearly all TV shows were filmed in Los Angeles, and they generally didn’t require the splashy promotional tours that movies did. Fewer TV stars would be in New York. I don’t get the feeling that the WML producers went out and solicited people from any medium to come to NY to appear on the show, so there were fewer TV stars as potential mystery guests.

But the producers, or whoever booked the guests, did not shy away from television. If James Arness (for example) had been in NY and willing to appear on WML, I think the show and the panel would have been happy to have him.

“WML?” especially catered to performers on CBS programs for mystery guests.

I'd also add that in the 1950s, most stars of TV series were former movie stars (or at least actors familiar to the public from their movie careers) because the new medium required big and /or familiar names to get people to buy television sets and tune in. Thus, most TV stars were older in the 1950s, too. There were few shows that starred actors under 30. Night time TV was not aimed at teenagers and children.

In the early 1960s, New York was still broadcasting lots of TV shows, dramatic series and variety hours and series were still shot in NYC. It wasn't until Johnny Carson moved The Tonight Show to the West Coast - was that in 1965? - that things started changing.

R450 B Crawford had a Best Actor Oscar.

I always giggle at how much Dorothy futzes with her hair and false eyelashes after removing her mask.

I got the distinct impression that JCD wasn't very enamored with Laurence Harvey.

[quote] It wasn't until Johnny Carson moved The Tonight Show to the West Coast - was that in 1965? - that things started changing.

The move didn't take place until 1972.

R457, Daly was ready to strangle Salvador Dali.

Did they ever have Pandora Spocks on?

R457 - I didn't notice any problem between Daly and Laurence Harvey. I did bristle when he called Arlene dear but then he kissed her on the way out so hopefully it was meant as a term of enDEARment.

Laurence Harvey was a fag.

Horst Buchholz was on What's My Line in 1962 when he was at his most gorgeous.

It's my hair. I paid for it.

Wasn't Laurence Harvey notoriously difficult to work with?

[quote]Wasn't Laurence Harvey notoriously difficult to work with?

He hit Stanwyck in the head with a fondue pot during the filming of Walk on the Wild Side.

She got away lucky. He hit Angela with a dildo while filming The Manchurian Candidate.

He said kissing me was like kissing a bottle of beer......I told him to kiss my ass he might like that better.

Of course, Horst B. co-starred with our Arlene in Billy Wilder's One, Two, Three!

They seemed to adore each other. He was bisexual, you know.

^^^

Yeah, but that shiny suit & beautiful beaded choker are the bomb.

No wonder Dotty was so sour faced.

Horst was hot, as well as bisexual. And you got to see a lot of him in One Two Three!

Was Buddy Hackett likes a second-rate Jerry Lewis?

...like...

I liked Buddy. He was the only buffoon who filled the spot that didn't ruin the episode. He was good on Hollywood Squares too. I don't know anything else he's done.

[quote]I don't know anything else he's done.

Shipoopi, r474.

The Love Bug?

Jerry Lewis and Lou Costello.

He starred in a Broadway musical, "I Had a Ball."

Never found Buddy funny.

I found the mushroom picker more entertaining than the Horst.

Why is that Billy Wilder film called One Two Three? I remember liking the film but can't remember the meaning of the (awful) title.

R481 . . .

“It is based on the 1929 Hungarian one-act play Egy, kettő, három by Ferenc Molnár, with a "plot borrowed partly from" Ninotchka, a 1939 film co-written by Wilder.”

Thanks, r482, but I still don't get the meaning of the title no matter what it's based on. Also, don't remember any similarities to Ninotchka.

I liked One Two Three when Horst was going on a political rant while he was in his underwear and James Cagney said: 'Put your pants on, Spartacus!'

And the Communists tortured a guy by playing "Itsy Bitsy Teeny Weeny Yellow Polka Dot Bikini" off center on a little record player.

And the guy looked in the closet and saw a dress with balloons in it and told his friend there was a girl in there with blue tits....

HA! And closing gag was great!

In the film, “one, two, three” is Cagny’s way of saying “right now!” or “ASAP!”

The entire movie is performed at a breakneck pace and hinges on Cagny’s unmatched proficiency with rapid fire dialogue.

. . .

Shirley Booth praises Arlene’s performance in “One, Two, Three” @ 22:45.

Where's Elaine Stritch?

Laurence Harvey was supposed to have been a prick.

And liked them, too!

Except for calling the WML producer fat, Shirley Booth was so darn gracious!

Throughout the film, Cagney's character barks out orders at breakneck speed, usually calling out lists for people to do. He repeatedly says, "One: Two: Three: ..." so the title refers to the main character's catchphrase. The play it's based on has instructions in the script that dialogue should be delivered rapidly, and director Billy Wilder clearly took that to heart.

He didn’t have to take it to heart—all he did was cast(ed) Cagney.

Did Johnny Carson have his ears done since 1962 and R487?

Arlene seems delighted by all the Navy pilots. Maybe because Martin is not on the panel.

Those navy boys mmmm mmmmm

short clip of Arlene in One, Two, Three

The full one two three if you want..

Booth in 1953.

I would have happily held onto young Johnny Carson's ears from 1962 onwards.

I wonder why bread boxes went out of style. I know they still exist, but decades ago, every home kitchen had one. They were very practical.

Because bread is mass processed and produced now. I'd rather not take up the room and if 1/2 or less of a loaf a bread goes bad I don't care. They take up a lot of space. Sort of like the cookie jar.

Booth 3

^ Dorothy looks thinner here.

And she and Dorothy both stand for Hedda Hopper.

she and Arlene i mean.

Hedda Hopper 2

Dorothy just back from Grace Kelly's wedding to Prince Rainier.

Dorothy stands for Hedda.

Most people just stick their bread in the fridge these days, don't they? I do, anyway.

A fridge is bad for fresh bread.

Why, r510?

Figure it out

If you're going to toast it, there's nothing wrong with putting it in the fridge, for me, anyway.

I purchase an extra loaf and freeze it so I never run out of bread.

I didn't think I need to watch a third Shirley Booth appearance but that entire episode at r503 is quite marvelous, including the young lady maker of nose warmers. Shirley is more delightful than ever, especially chatting about her White House encounter with JFK.

And Hedda Hopper's foot high hair-hopper hairdo is only outmatched by Dorothy's most curious wiglet sitting precariously atop her head. I can only imagine what Bennett must have thought of it.

R501 I still own a bread box, it's wooden with a roll top slats.

Here's a cute clip from WML of a guest who actually manufactures bread boxes.

Just in case anyone was wondering:

"Breadboxes are about 16 inches wide by 8 to 9 inches high and deep."

I always understood that bread boxes started to go away when bakeries adopted airtight plastic bags that kept the bread fresh (while taking up far less space on the kitchen counter). It makes so much sense that it's probably apocryphal, but that doesn't lessen the "rightness" of it.

It's starting to look like we may need a Part 5 of this thread. I never expected it to go beyond a Part 2.

^I think we need to have compulsorily viewing of each episode, with corresponding posted reviews.

The guy at R517 looks like Daniel J. Travanti.

Peggy Cass is really enjoying herself. And you can see that John and the panel like her a lot.

I got distracted by Hedda in R503 and her necklace. Trying to work out whether it was all strands or some bunched up skin....

Or a little neck tie?

This thread needs some revitalizin' and here it is!

*Frances Day* aka *Gale Warning

[quote]In the 1950s she made only four films but found a new career as a regular panelist on the British version of What's My Line?, which ran from July 16, 1951, until May 13, 1963.

I don't know why I've never heard of Frances Day.

I think this thread can be divided into those who had a breadbox on the counter as a child and those who have to be told what a breadbox is and what the measurements are.

As for Shirley, "Booth was age 54 when she made her first movie, but she had successfully shaved almost a decade off her real age, with her publicity stating 1907 as the year of her birth. Her correct year of birth, 1898, was announced at the time of her death."

Here's the whole episode that Salvador Dali was on.

R529 Lillian Roth, or "I'll Cry Tomorrow" fame.

*...of

John says they'll have Mr. and Mrs. Kilgallen on the show next week. Is that correct?

The bread box maker is a great example of how men's grooming was rather barbaric or non-existent pre-1960s. If that gent were alive at that age today he'd be quite hot, I'd bet.

Dorothy’s father was a famed newspaperman in his day.

Lillian Roth was adorable! She sort of reminded me of a cuter version of Tyne Daly.

Lillian Roth went through hell and back and then her hairdresser put her in hell again.

R532 - Yes.

I've ben trying to find the chorus boy who was in Dorothy's husband's Broadway show (Dick was a producer) but I can't locate it/him. Help!

[quote]The bread box maker is a great example of how men's grooming was rather barbaric or non-existent pre-1960s.

In what way is his grooming "rather barbaric or non-existent "? Compared to what?

He looks fine. Dapper. Men were much more careful about their grooming back then than they are today. Also, he wasn't some TV celebrity, just a regular guy.

Remember too, the lighting on those early shows is gruesome.

Breakfast With Dorothy and Dick.

Direct from their apartment on 66th

Barbaric grooming- hair slicked down and back with Brylcreem or Vaseline. Sleazy pencil thin mustache. Shiny cheap suit badly tailored. He looks 50 and was probably barely 30.

Tab was a sweet man.

[quote]Tab was a sweet man.

And none of the calories!

[quote]hair slicked down and back with Brylcreem or Vaseline. Sleazy pencil thin mustache.

It was a style, just as styles today will seem strange 65 years from now too.

The breadbox guy was cute as hell. No wonder so many of you will die alone with bedsores.

R528, my grandparents had a breadbox when I little. I remember my father explaining its purpose to me; he did so in a distinctly “this is old-fashioned” tone. It would have been around 1963 or so.

I do think bread boxes went away because of the plastic bread bags that appeared in … the ‘50s? They keep bread much fresher than a wooden box ever could.

Meanwhile, real bakery bread goes stale in a couple of days if you don’t freeze it - breadbox, plastic bag or not. It’s possible that breadboxes help prolong the life of bakery bread a bit longer than leaving them on the counter. By the WML era, though, average American households were buying supermarket sliced bread (Wonder Bread and Sunbeam in those days; Arnold and Pepperidge Farm a bit later) that keeps a long time in plastic. No need for space-wasting breadboxes.

R533, I hate to disagree in such a pleasant thread, but the breadbox-maker – Fred Burg is his name – is hot exactly as he is. Maybe the Boston Blackie mustache is a bit much, but it suits him. His hair is well-barbered and neatly dressed, and his face is shaven smooth. What more grooming would you want?

With almost every episode of WML, I’m struck by how much better looking men were in those days. For one thing, they look like grown men, not sloppy or rebellious adolescents.

Peggy Cass was manic.

It's Frances!

Hedda 3

You can still buy bread boxes and even though my mother was "thrifty", we never bought that awful Wonder bread-type stuff.

Alessi

Bread boxes also kept the cockroaches and ants from eating your bread.

I like Hedda in her jewels asking us to make a donation.

R537 I meant, shouldn't John have said, "Mr. and Mrs. Kollmar" (not Kilgallen)? He did say "Mr. and Mrs. Gabel."

The purpose of breadboxes has already been explained in one of these threads.

Here- you don't even need to click on the link, it's all there under the photo.

As I remember it bread loaves back then were not packaged in plastic as they are today. The packaging was paper, a waxy paper.

In the Feb 3 show R537 he introduced Dorothy as Mrs Kollmar.

Oh that was Martin who did.

Where do people keep their loafs of bread if they don't have a breadbox? In the fridge? In the cupboard? In a pantry? I'm assuming many keep their loafs always outside on a counter. Kinda of tacky.

My mother made my school lunches with frozen bread. It never tasted as good as fresh bread and I refused to eat them.

My mother loved me, R560. She always used fresh bread.

I was talking about R529 when John says (at @ 23:30) that next week "we're going to have a kind of family party. We're going to have Mr. and Mrs. Kilgallen with us, and Mr. and Mrs. Gabel - Mrs. Gabel being Miss Arlene Francis." Should he not have said "Mr. and Mrs. Kollmar"?

If I'm wrong, I'll shut up.

Did he mean Dorothy's parents?

Is it loafs or loaves?

loaves

Lurves.

Baguettes

Bajour!

Don't let your meat loaf.

R562 - Maybe he thought if he said Mr. and Mrs. Kollmar nobody would know who that was,

Hedda 4

Wasn't Hedda sort of a competitor to Dorothy? And did any of the other gossipeuses of the day show up -- Lolly, Winchell, et al.?

R571 Whoa...Dennis Weaver is incredibly handsome. What an entrance.

Winchell

Yeah. Dennis Weaver cleaned up nice.

Wow that Hal Block is lucky the frog catcher didn't punch him for all those fat jokes.

R572 . . .

R572 . . .

Louella Parsons seemed to have an advanced case of resting bitch face.

Hedda 5

New thread.

Hedda as panelist

Daly smoked on the show in 1951.

Dorothy’s father outlived her by 17 years.

Dennis Weaver was dreamy!!!

Art Linkletter is a good example of the rare TV star who appeared as a mystery guest in the 1950s.

Dennis Weaver was a TV star but he only ever appeared as a panelist, I think.

Dennis Weaver’s character “Chester” on “Gunsmoke” was enormously popular.

Art Linkletter reminds me of Edith Head, who he regularly had as a guest on his afternoon TV program House Party. Art would bring up 3 women from his studio audience, always housewives in those days, and Edith would analyze their clothes and tell them what they were doing wrong and how they might improve their look. Does anyone else remember that? With those TV appearances, Edith became the most famous costume designer in the world, far more famous than others with more talent.

Was Edith ever a MG on WML?

Art also had a "funny" segment where he would go through a woman's purse in his audience and thoroughly embarrass them by revealing the contents.

Kids say the darnedest things.

Weaver left "Gunsmoke" well before it was cancelled because he felt he was typecast. he never became a big star but at least he had the opportunity to do other things.

R590 He became a bigger star than he had been on Gunsmoke.

R586 Nanette Fabray was a TV star who appeared as a mystery guest. From '54 to '57 she was the co-star of Sid Caesar on Caesar's Hour.

R538 go to the Internet Broadway Database and put in the title of the show. There's usually a list of the cast on opening night and then later replacements.

Here's Kollmar's page.

Maybe TV stars appearing as mystery guests wasn't all that rare in the '50s. Liberace, Robert Sterling & Anne Jeffreys (Topper), Eve Arden, Danny Thomas, Jackie Gleason, Sid Caesar, James Garner, Allen Funt, Rosemary Clooney (had a show in the '50s), Johnny Carson, Lawrence Welk, George Burns, Red Skelton, Audrey Meadows, Phil Silvers, Jimmy Durante, Buffalo Bob Smith, Raymond Burr...even Alfred Hitchcock and Walt Disney were TV stars in the '50s.

Everyone was on TV in the 50s. The movie business was desperate to avoid collapse due to 👀s

Nanette Fabray was a big Broadway star before she ever appeared on TV. High Button Shoes, Make a Wish, Love Life, etc.

Eve Arden, Robert Sterling, George Burns & Gracie Allen, Red Skelton, Phil Silvers, Jimmy Durante were all established movie stars before they appeared on TV. And Rosemary Clooney was, of course, a big singing star with many hit records.

R597 So? In the '50s, almost all TV stars came from other media first. What's your point? Either they were TV stars in the '50s or they weren't.

Yes—since National commercial TV was new, by definition people came from some other part of the entertainment industry. Duh.

Also, many of the TV stars on WML were on CBS, the network WML was on. Silvers, Gleason, Meadows, Skelton (by the mid-'50s), Lucy & Desi, Burns & Allen, Eve Arden. And several like Silvers, Gleason & Meadows, Arden, Lucy & Desi were bigger on TV than they had been in their earlier careers.