Are you excited about “Shogun”?

I don’t see the point in this. It was already an epic, 10 hour miniseries. So what if it’s over 40 years old?

r1 Only a chronic eldergay would say something like that. No offence.

R1 the old Shogun is not available on streaming. I had to buy the CDs and dust off my CD player.

Let’s just hope that the new Shogun is not going to be an overwrought CGI disaster like Keanu’s “47 Ronin” trying to pander to all Asian cultures at once.

The old Shogun was indeed epic. Pity the young'uns who won't get to enjoy Richard Chamberlain in that role.

I wish Dick would post back here to let us know how he’s doing.

Shogun doesn't need to be remade. I'll take a look but I doubt it will be better than Chamberlain's version.

Remakes often reignite interest in the original, and can even make people appreciate the original more if they suck. I hope it's good, loved the Blue Eyed Samurai animated series.

I predict controversy over the amount of Japanese actors relative to white ones.

Now that you mention it, R7, this does make me want to re-watch the original. It's been years since I've seen it.

[quote]I predict controversy over the amount of Japanese actors relative to white ones.

Judge for yourself. Here is the cast.

I really loved the original and the book, too. I'll watch because I really, really, like Hiroyuki Sanada. It won't be the same, though that's true.

Trailer. Sorry, but no one can equal the majesty of Mifune.

I am. I'm interested if they're going to hew closer to the Japanese culture than the original.

Interesting, just as I posted at r13, I got an email from KCRW about a free screening for their members on Monday. I checked my membership, and my donations stopped in 2017 from an expired card.

I'm excited about hunky richard chamberlain

I am not.

Richard Chamberlain is still alive!

Who has had him (lately)?

r17 I have to say, those are some really nice teef, for that time period.

I wouldn't say I'm *excited* about the new version of Shogun, but I am looking forward to it. Several friends raved about the book back in the day, and I tried several times to read it but just couldn't get into it. Then one of the friends said to keep going, that the plot takes off around pg. 150. And what do you know, it did! I could barely put it down. Great literature? No. Great story? Yes.

I barely remember the Chamberlain miniseries (pity it's unavailable for streaming). But I do like the oddly handsome Cosmo Jarvis who's playing the Chamberlain role of Capt. Blackthorne. (You can see him the recent remake of Persuasion as Capt. Wentworth -- he's fine, the rest of it is awful -- and occasionally naked opposite Florence Pugh In Lady Macbeth.) I watched the most recent season of Fargo on FX, and every episode had at least one long ad for Shogun. The ads largely focused on the war/martial arts aspects of the story, and there's a lot more to it than that. So we'll see.

Honestly, I think the new one looks better than the original. I do remember it being a big television event in 1980. I wanted to read the book but all Clavell does is talk about Blackstone's penis in it.

Yes, I am excited! I've never read the book but have seen the Chamberlain version.

The production values look good, as per the trailer.

I’ll always remember the 1980 version because a lazy health teacher (aka a “coach”) showed us the whole thing in class, video taped from TV over several days rather than teach us about nutrition or VD or whatever he was supposed to be doing.

Another health/gym teacher showed an industrial film produced by Del Monte about the cultivation and processing of the Bartlett pear. “Those who can’t do teach. Those who can’t teach teach gym”. It’s real.

R2 only an idiot like you would make a statement like that. No offense.

It was a big deal in my fourth grade class in 1980 as one of the characters said something like, “I’ll piss on your country” on network TV. In 1980!

It was also something to watch in the interminable wait to find out who shot JR.

Not excited at all, makes me want to see the original again.

Just watched 13 Assassins -the 2010 version. It’s incredibly graphically violent.

I know ir's a puff piece, but it sounds promising:

Are they keeping the songs?

Strong review from Time as well.

[quote]Almost three years later, as the streaming landscape contracts and content spends shrink, Shōgun stands as more vital evidence that the medium can still achieve greatness – and that its splashiest, most cinematic efforts are just as capable of excellence as the talkier, more grounded dramas and comedies that critics often prefer. The factors common to all great serialized stories, regardless of scale, are simple: compelling characters, ingenious plots, universal themes. TV’s second Shōgun teems with all of the above. The costly embellishments are just a bonus. Call it a remake if you must, but few shows out there feel fresher.

Pretty in-depth for a puff piece, R28. Thanks for posting it. (I'd forgotten that the 80s series had no subtitles when the Japanese characters spoke their own language.)

I just finished the (endless) book, not knowing it was such a classic. And now I am learning of entire films and miniseries! I have lots to catch up on…

Hope you're caught up, Dutchie, less than a week till Shogun airs (Feb. 27 on FX).

R20 great. Just great.

Now you've made me want to the damn book!

Whenever I read the book, I've always wanted sushi after.

This might sound problematic, but I want a kaftan version of the garment seen here.

We watched the original series last year since i remembered it fondly but I was surprised to find it a little stodgy and very, very Western-centric. The Japanese are kept at arm's length.

The remake is said to be broader in scope and offers more of an immersion in Japan's culture and characters. It sounds very epic which is exciting and unusual for a television series. Definitely watching.

I haven’t seen the original. I’ll try an episode or two on Hulu this time around. It doesn’t look like my kind of thing, really. How battle-centric is the story?

It received an absolute rave today in the Washington Post. It sounds really interesting--they're retaining the Richard Chamberlain character, Blackthorne, as a major character, but the story is no longer told from his point of view, so it doesn't make the white perspective the central perspective.

I remember in the mid 1970s everyone was reading the James Clavell novel--it was the #1 bestseller for months and months. It was really a phenomenon, and it garnered high reviews for its "grippingness" and readability as well as for its overview of a historical time period in a culture many Americans did not know much about. Apparently they asked undergraduates who were taking Japanese studies or languages classes @1980 how many of them had read the novel and an astonishingly high percentage had and said it was responsible for their course of study.

[quote] I don’t see the point in this. It was already an epic, 10 hour miniseries. So what if it’s over 40 years old?

There aren't many people who remember the original because it was so long ago.

Moreover, there are all kinds of other novels that get re-made as movies or TV series much, much, much more frequently than this: Frankenstein, Jane Eyre, Wuthering Heights, Vanity Fair, Les Miserables, Great Expectations, The Count of Monte Cristo...

To be honest, I see absolutely no point in your bitching (other than that it is a Datalounge tradition). What is it to you if they re-make it as a new miniseries? How does it hurt you or anyone in any possible way?

I LOVED this series when it came out. The book, too. Richard Chamberlain as Blackthorn, and he did Centennial and The Thornbirds around the same time.

Well, having neither read the book nor seen the mini-series I am looking forward to this epic production.

It looks awesome!

I was ten in 1980 so this didn’t hold an interest for me. I of course knew of it but I’ve never seen it.

Can’t wait.

Me also! Omg, I love the star in this new one.

Wouldn't matter if I was ecstatic over the very thought of it. I will never pay another streaming anything.

Shogun is excellent!

Ok it’s good but not excellent. Some stupid clichés on Japanese mentality and history.

Golden showers and decapitations in the first episode!

Plus a slow boiling of a man alive! Fun!

It was surprising to see Nestor Carbonell show up as Rodrigues. He's lost his looks, but he's a welcome presence.

R49 He looks fine. He stopped dyeing his hair. Jarvis has some dreamy blue eyes tho.

The Richard Chamberlain replacement has a nice ass.

I liked the first episode a lot, will be watching the second later today. Great production values, and I especially love the textiles.

I posted this comment under the WaPo review: Toranaga is based on historical figure Ieyasu Tokugawa, one of Japan's unifiers. He was played by J-pop idol Jun Matsumoto in a year-long weekly Japanese TV drama. This was a different take on the character--kinder, gentler, conflicted. There are fan-made subs out there. Great series.

No I’m not at all excited

r54, what if the lead guy shows his "gun"?

Not one bit

Were there really incredibly deadly ninja maids in 1600 Japan? That seemed hard to believe.

Fucking subtitles. I don’t have the attention span to focus on the screen the entire fucking time. Why can’t they speak English? I’m constantly rewinding to figure out what I missed.

Maybe take a Ritalin? Some shows you just have to sit and pay attention to.

Maybe not watch a series set in Japan?

I don’t care if it’s set in East Jabip, they can still speak English. Guarantee every goddamn one of these actors speaks perfectly fine English.

When this shit flops, maybe they’ll learn a lesson. Americans don’t want to watch anything with bullshit ass subtitles.

I was going to joke, “Prob filmed in Canada.”

But it actually was. The 1980 miniseries was filmed on location in Japan.

Yes! I love Japan.

This series was filmed in Japan as well as in British Columbia.

R61, shut your ignorant mouth, you don’t speak for everyone. And with today’s media streams, the whole world can watch.

My guess is that they're trying to market it overseas as well as in the USA.

[QUOTE] shut your ignorant mouth, you don’t speak for everyone.

You’re right R65, I don’t speak for everyone. I just speak for America.

It took me watching the first episode to realize how little I actually pay attention to a TV show I watch.

Because most of it is in Japanese, I am 40 minutes in (as I type) and I have no idea what's going on. My attention waned. I scrolled DL. Checked my email. Etc.

I need to focus dammit!!

Haha. I just read the rest of the thread. While I don't harbor the anger and bitchiness of R61, I get what he means.

The biggest difference between him and me? I know it's not the show's fault I didn't pay attention. It's mine. I mean, I knew it was going to have Japanese subtitles.

The remake does look interesting. Good production values, as mentioned. Actual Japanese actors and actresses.

The original Shogun aired when I was little. All I remember was Richard Chamberlain.

I remember Thorn Birds more than Shogun.

[quote] When this shit flops,

It’s getting absolute rave reviews.

R67, I am American, you don’t speak for me.

I'm having trouble telling the difference between the bitchy mother of the Heir (who is the Queen cersei of this story, apparently) and the conflicted female translator. I hope I can tell them apart more easily in time.

I want all the kimonos and robes, painted screens and lacquer boxes. (I read fast and don’t do anything else while I watch TV so I have time to look at the production values, too.)

Oddly enough, I have never had a problem with subtitles.

My eldergay eyes really don’t like the yellow subtitles.

Then quickly learn Japanese.

I enjoyed the first episode, but it’s hard to follow who is who and what their significance is to the story. I like Cosmo.

Was the leper guy in the book? Or did they steal that from Braveheart?

I gave up. I can do subtitles for a movie no problem. I can do periodic subtitles in an ongoing TV show.

But it turns out I can't do 90% subtitles for ten, ninety minute episodes of a TV series. Even one I really wanted to watch.

I blame my mother for this weakness in me.

Loved the first two episodes so much. Could not be more intrigued by the politics of it all, especially the Catholic vs. Protestant aspect. Exquisitely photographed by the handsome Jonathan Van Tulleken, who will also be directing the first two episodes of the new Blade Runner series. There were so many instances where I paused to take a screenshot, I eventually just gave up.

So glad they gave Cosmo a nice wig, he was balding like hell in his wonderful turn on Raised by Wolves in 2020, which is when I saw him for the first time. I find his big head coupled with narrow shoulders quite attractive, makes him look like a cute teddy bear. Shame they shaved his torso as much as they did, though. Would have been an even better contrast with the Japanese if they kept his full bush.

Actress playing Mariko is an absolute standout for me so far, she's magnetic. It always irks me when movies and TV shows use the term "translator" when they actually mean "interpreter", but I think there wasn't yet this clear distinction between the two back in the 1700s, so I give them a pass.

Father Martin can GET it. This is him on a beach some years ago.

[QUOTE] I gave up. I can do subtitles for a movie no problem. I can do periodic subtitles in an ongoing TV show. But it turns out I can't do 90% subtitles for ten, ninety minute episodes of a TV series. Even one I really wanted to watch.

The subtitles will doom this series with American audiences. I didn’t even finish the pilot episode, and I have no desire to. There’s too much other stuff I can watch.

r83 I don't know exactly how to break this to you but gurlfriend, you are not America.

r61/r83 is the stereotypical close-minded dumb gringo that the rest of the world makes fun of. Just embarrassing.

No American will watch this sort of show any more than they would watch some dumb show about dragons. Actually Shogun is getting much better initial reviews than some show with dragons did .

I really like this version. It feels so much more real than the original series. And much closer to the book

The research the production people did is Masters of Air like. Although they dd change a few historic details like the wives of the samurai having painted black teeth. And I for one would have found those black teeth distracting so I approve of that change.

Also they spent a lot of time trying to be accurate as to how people sat.

I can’t wait for the rest of the episodes .

Yes filmed in Canada because they could jot find enough open space in Japan that would have worked.

R79

Not only is the leper character in the book the character is based on a real historic person who also had the disease.

Virtually all the main characters are based on real people.

Just watched the first episode last night - can somebody PLEASE tell me why they boiled that poor guy?? It wasn’t explained at all and just seemed random.

He was the token sacrifice.

Really R89? I didn't read it as any sort of religious or mystic kind of sacrifice. I don't even really think of the Japanese as the sacrificial types.

It was punishment for being the pirates. They just executed one. We don’t know what happened to the others.

R88

That poor sailor they boiled to death got boiled for two reasons.

It was an inexpensive way to satisfy the Jesuits who wanted the pilot dead. Right from the start the pilot had a lot of value. The Japanese were not the ones demanding a pirates death.

But the guy that ordered the boiling had a hobby or scientific study ongoing. He was studying what people said and how they sounded at the moment of death.

You can see him sitting alone listening to the screams

He complains after that this one was just like all the rest. Nothing but gibberish.

Thanks R92 -

Another question if anyone wants to ponder/ruminate on it: How have the Japanese identified the sexy pilot as having value to them so suddenly? Because he's just so talented piloting ships? Because they figure he'd know how to use the weapons on the ship which they clearly hadn't seen before?

R93

This is an IMO.

First off he was the head sailor the pilot. Rank. They had a lot of experience with other european pilots that brought value. That storm at sea in epi two as an example.

But he really is seen as valuable as soon as they realize he hates the Catholics. Then he becomes a valuable chip to play against those other Europeans

Just as the pilot hopes to use his captors in his fight against the Catholics..

R93

They had seen weapons cannon and rifle before. And we know that because one of the Japanese characters makes that point early on .

R88, it's clear in the novel that Yabu got off on the boiling--put him in the mood for a 3-way with a boy and a courtesan.

That slow boiling sure got ME in the mood!

I wonder if we will see pissy Omi again?

The leper thing reminded me of Braveheart. Mariko is just all mixed up with the lady in Dances With Wolves, interpreter love interests, it all blends together.

And as far as the weapons from the Dutch ship. It was also mentioned in epi #1 that is was the Catholic Lords allied with the Europeans that had weapon support like this. Toranoga not being Christian did not have these. So the ship and its cargo was a big get for him.

R93, Blackthorne knows what the Portuguese are up to: they intend to colonize and exploit Japan.

The guy who plays Blackthorne has such an annoying whiskey voice. He's handsome, but not very likable.

The show is very exciting and beautifully filmed, although it's hard to remember who is who among the characters since there are so many of them.

Looks like the Erasmus must have had a gym on board, and some kegs of protein powder, damn…..

It is nothing to get excited about.

They screwed up the casting for Blackthorne. Should have gone with Pine.

Thank you, producers, for the long, nearly naked diving scene at the end of this episode. Anjin is built. (Oh, and thanks for all the beautiful costumes, too.)

Third episode was just as good as the two before, I love this show already. Makes me forget how depressed I am for that one glorious hour a week.

Ratings are encouraging as well.

I am glad for Nestor Carbonell that he's finally been given a very good role. He always mostly played eye candy for decades and decades.

Yeah, he's great in this. I'm also really glad he's finally ditched the shoe polish black hair, which bugged me even back on Lost.

Is he laying off the eyeliner?

I can’t wait for epi 4. 1 was really good, 2 was better, 3 was the best yet. And if you really want to know what’s going on rewatch epi or read good recaps.

It’s going down as one of the best ever.

r110, I've seen both Nestor and Billy Zane in person, and they don't wear eyeliner, they're lucky to have what Liz Taylor had- double row of inky black eyelashes.

I like it, though it does feel like a rehash

R113

I noticed that as well. They follow the same exact story as the book and the original series. Much different than the previous series but the same dam story. No thinking outsiders de the box.

The seres would have been better if they could have introduced the US Navy fleet and the French and some other shit that was never in the book..

in 1600 there would have been no US navy.

I like it hewing closely to the authentic historical events. But, yeah, one can almost recall scenes, line for line (even in japanese!) from the original

If they thought outside the box, people would be complaining that they were disrespecting the original story. There's no winning for the showrunners.

[quote]The seres would have been better if they could have introduced the US Navy fleet

That would have been completely ahistorical, are you fucking kidding me? Gurlfriend, you need to brush up on American history, stat.

[quote]line for line (even in japanese!)

That's not entirely true. The writers sent the English script over to Japan to be translated into Japanese, then sent it to another expert who changed it so it would be closer to Japanese spoken in that time period. So the similarity is coincidental.

[quote]in 1600 there would have been no US navy.

The show takes place in 1700. But yes, even in 1700, definitely no US Navy. That happened a century later when the Barbary pirates needed to be dealt with.

[quote]and the French

France in 17th century was still too busy fighting wars in Europe to expand overseas. By the time they got their shit together in the 18th century, Japan was already closed off to foreign trade (sakoku), thanks to previous meddling by Spain and Portugal, which is portrayed in this show.

Yes as a history major I need to remember no US Navy in 1600 :-)

Funny maybe I slept thru that lecture during Navy boot camp.

and it was 1600 not 1700. They do follow the book closely but R117 is correct they spent a lot of time on the language used in this series. More than I would have ever guessed.

Not a plot spoiler and you should not be on this thread if you want to be surprised. But when you see the woman pick of weapons and join the fight in epi 3 they show the actual type of weapons that woman would have used in 1600. And different in design from the weapons men would have used.

This series and what it shows of the Japanese warriors shows quite well why the US Marines had their hands full in WW2.

Yikes, the show does indeed take place in 1600, not 1700. Sorry, r117. I mixed it up with something else I'm currently researching!

oh, dear

If you're itching for another historical novel about Japan, read David Mitchell's "The Thousand Autumns of Jacob DeZoet" and find out what the Dutch were up to in 1799 on their tiny trading island in Nagasaki Harbor. Beautifully written and educational, too. (And fewer regents to keep track of; still plenty of scheming, though.)

Thanks, r123.

Just bought the Kindle version for my IPad.

I’m a baby! I can’t cope with subtitles!

It doesn’t seem to be focused on Blackthorne like the novel was. It’s all Toranaga all the time.

Someone somewhere online noted that Lord Toranaga wasn't interested in learning how to dive by watching Blackthorne do it over and over, Toranaga just wanted Blackthorne to take a damn bath. I had to laugh at Toranaga being that sly.

R7 has any remake ever been better than the original?

I wanted to see Richard Chamberlain naked in that hot tub in the original. I was 9.

I wish they were writing better stuff for the guy who is playing Rodrigues. Or directing him better? He’s too dickish.

r123, I Adore that book

R130

This is a YMMV thing. He is borderline my fav character in the series so far. I thought the scenes he has had he knocked out of the park. I would like to see more of him

The casting in this show not just the writing and the filming itself has been absolutely great.

And it’s not just the spoken word. I have been taken with the non verbal reactions to something. The look on that young woman’s face in epi 3 when she was asked if she wanted to get into the fight was priceless and scary.

Toranoga’s non verbal reaction when the pilot said “unless I win” in epi 2.

Off to rewatch an epi or two.

The actor playing Blackthorne has a lot of presence and is a good actor (not afraid to act like a dick) but his face kind of reminds me of a baby. Round eyelids. Round nostrils.

Shogun’ Hits 9 Million Views and Beats ‘The Bear’ Season 2 as FX’s Biggest Hulu Premiere

I like the show a lot but the subtitles can indeed be challenging. I don’t mind them it’s just that most of the show is spent reading and trying to absorb what the character is saying before it disappears and another subtitle pops up. And I fear that a lot is being missed visually.

The show takes place in 1600. Elizabeth I is still on the throne with only about three more years to live. :-(

R135

It’s a show made to be rewatched. I have picked up so much more in the rewatching I have done.

Rodrigues is a good character no matter what they do, he’s just fun. I guess anyone looks harsh following Rhys-Davies, who is so jovial?

Are you excited?

Not one bit.

Okay, at the beginning of the third episode, an old Japanese guy (which one??) is talking to the woman who lost her husband and baby in the last episode. She’s staring at two boxes of ashes, a big one and a little one. He says something that sounds like she will be able to get her revenge? On whom?

[quote] Okay, at the beginning of the third episode, an old Japanese guy (which one??) is talking to the woman who lost her husband and baby in the last episode

I’d the woman is Fuji, whose headstrong husband committed seppuku on himself and his baby, she is annoyed that Toranaga told her father than her life would be spared. She is so grief stricken at losing her baby that she wants to die. So I assume she wants revenge of Toranaga for forcing her to live.

She Fuji wants to fight for toranaga and against the regents her husband spoke out against. And an opportunity to die.

Okay, r142 makes more sense.

So this was a set up for some future action? Or was she involved in that switcheroo that got Toranaga out of Osaka?

Also for people who haven’t read the book, Edo is the old name for Tokyo. (Practically the only thing I remember from reading it).

She was in the fight that occurred later on, the fire arrows, and doing quite well. Toranagas wife was the main part of the switch.

What I am wondering is

How did the pilot know he had a daughter if he left before her birth?

No one's excited about this week's episode of sex and gore and Anjin getting naked again? A couple of characters are now in some deep shit (or will be soon, once Lord T finds out what they did).

Spectacular cinematography (the lighting!) and writing in the fourth episode, I just adore this show.

The moment Cosmo tripped over the tea cup, his twitchy acting finally clicked for me. It's to juxtapose it with the ever-composed Japanese, d'oh. Love their little cultural exchange talks where they talk about their different cultures and customs. So good.

On a shallower note, I would like to go up inside this handsome extra.

Speaking of customs, anyone know why it's considered disrespectful to step on moss in Japan? Loved the scenes where they sat on the deep-eaved porch and watched the soft rain fall. Nice to see Fuji stop crying and grow a spine, too.

Never mind, I found out about moss myself -- thanks, Google! "In Japan, moss is regarded as an essential element: a symbol of harmony, age, and tradition. For at least 1,000 years, Zen monks have celebrated its presence in written descriptions of temple landscapes. "

Moss is also extremely difficult to cultivate (evenly) in your garden. Trample it and it's ruined.

That was some really accurate cannon fire. The pilot was a good teacher

. I am thinking jr did the correct thing. Now no one involved that day in my way is going to Osaka claiming they are opposed to Toranaga and want to be allies.

R145, the annoyed mother probably sent him a letter. I think that you could send mail to a port city and it would be held until the ship arrived.

R151

So his ship leaves, the birth happens, mail is then some ti e after put on a different ship, and the mail is held in the new port until the first ship arrives?

I am still not quite seeing this. Although I believe you are correct and that mail could be sent that way.

Yes, the shipping company would have an agent in each port it went to. The agent would receive and hold mail for the ship’s crew. Those that could write and afford paper. This is the late 1500s, right?

I think it's 1600 on the dot.

Just started the series (wanted to shore up some eps), and while it took a little bit to get used to 95% subtitles, I didn't think about it anymore in the 2nd ep.

The guy playing Blackthorne is odd looking to me- like a premature Tom Hardy. I've just finished the 2nd ep, and I'm glad they're taking the Japanese point of view.

My question at r144, her grandfather or whatever relation he was (Toronaga’s aide) must have told her she’d be the foreigner’s consort when they got to the village, by order of Toronaga. Not just for “pillowing” but to manage the household. Mariko was too high born or too important for that. Fuji, having just had her infant son killed by her impetuous husband before he killed himself, wasn’t in the mood but Honor and Duty… Great scene where she brandished the pistol at Yamabushi’s son. (There must be some reason why her hands aren’t touching the guns, her kimono sleeves cover her hands)

I am getting more excited since the last episode. The Yabu guy is excellent!

I don’t mind the subtitles, but then again, I need subtitles to understand the dialogue on The Crown.

I watch everything with subtitles.

The only shows that don’t need subtitles are Hollywood films of the 30s-50s filmed on soundstages by actors with clear diction. Once they moved to more “natural” acting, sound went out the window.

R155

She was told she would have a new job taking care of Pilot sometime after the battle and some time after the Pilot made his escape after being left behind. Just about the time Pilot escaped and got a new promotion.

Sometime after they all left that shithole Osaka where her father? grandfather? still resides..

A I love all the “Portuguese” and “Spanish” actors

Seeing the anjin dive over and over is delightful

This show is so entertaining, I was entranced by every second of that dinner with Buntaro.

so sweet and sexy

And if you are the kind that can’t wait to find out what happens in Epi 5 (10 pm tonight) just go to the NYT front page they have already printed the recap for 5.

I bet someone gets in a load of trouble at the Times..

It’s already on Hulu!

Hulu Hula

Are you guys all watching this on Hulu? Does it really cost $76.99 per month?

I don't know what is it with me and domestic abusers, but I need Buntaro deep inside me, sorry not sorry.

R168, no

Anjin ‘s ass and the rest of the body are delightful but his head is too big.

I find that attractive

Same, he looks adorable as hell.

[quote] Are you guys all watching this on Hulu? Does it really cost $76.99 per month?

Don’t be absurd. It’s $769.90 per month.

Last episode was kind of a bummer.

I’m crying as I type this

Fuji is becoming a real standout character. Her facial expressions are so entertaining, in addition to the way she talks to her staff about the Anjin.

I would also like to point out the snow in the quiet scene with Mariko and Anjin. It's the first time in ages where I really bought that it was snowing in a TV scene. Really well done.

the raining weather is affective too

Dear Anjin: Repeat after me -- Words. Matter.

He’s pretty scandalous. I don’t remember the book portraying his shame so vividly. Did Toranaga get pissy like that in the book? I know the timeline is a little different in the book too (he becomes hatamoto after the earthquake in the book??).

Is he shameful on account of his good looks?

Shameful on account of being whiny and clueless about the domestic havoc he’s causing….

Everyone's faces and voices are so expressive, with all the stillness in their bodies.

I find the off center-out of focus camerawork annoying. I know they want to create a dreamy atmosphere but I’d like to look at the fabrics and other details off center too.

Yes R169, Buntaro is smoking hot.🥵

Nobody is excited about Shogun?

First episode that was light on Anjin, but it worked. Cinematography in the opening flashback was stunning, the costumes unreal, and the dialogue throughout the episode sublime. To mark he passage of time, they gave Cosmo a nice spiffy new wig that makes him look even sexier.

Buntaro looked extra sexy this episode. Speaking of, we see the handsome Father Martin again. Was starting to wonder whether he'd appear again.

r184 I get your point, but it's just how prestige TV is shot these days. It's especially useful for period pieces as it makes them look more cinematic and less Masterpiece Theatre.

That scene with Mariko translating for Kiku for Anjin was, whew, is it hot in here?

The kimonos are so gorgeous, but I wish we could see them in full length more often (usually it's a talking head-and-shoulders shot that shows the intricate layers around the neck). I would love a DVD extras kind of feature on all the costumes.

I’m watching this on Hulu, and they have a behind-the-scenes extra about the costumes and some other stuff, R188. Also an English dub version of the show that I have not checked out.

Oh, wow, need to see that

The women are really outstanding- such stillness, but amazing eyes and voices.

I would not have minded seeing some of Anjin and Kiku's liaison.

I suspect there wasn't any and we'll find that out in the next episode.

Have they said Blackthorne’s name more than once? He is kind of played as a nameless oaf in this series.

They refer to him as Anjin and treat him as a barbarian, to drive home the point that he's an outsider, discovering this land and its people along with us.

Yes, R195, but it’s dumbed down compared to the original book (which you’d think was called Anjin from watching the show).

R67 Shut your ignorant mouth. You don’t speak for America.

[quote] Have they said Blackthorne’s name more than once? He is kind of played as a nameless oaf in this series.

They made clear early in the series that the Japanese call him "Anjin" (or "Pilot") because they have trouble pronouncing "Blackthorne."

r197 has Alzheimer's.

Anna Sawai deserves an Emmy nom for best actress.

She brings more to the role than it offers

She and ANJIN are underwritten because the Toranaga actor (and producer?) was probably in the writers room advocating for his character.

R198, Japanese has no “th” sound, so the characters would struggle with pronouncing his name.

Yes, we all know that the Japanese are physically unable to say “th” sounds. We all watched episode one. The point is that they have made Toranaga the protagonist, for perfectly understandable reasons of marketing. ANJIN was sort of the point of the book. It is odd to have him turned into romantic side plot.

The book was written in a different time, the show is trying to centre the Japanese. In any case, both can coexist side by side.

Toranaga has no convincing motivation in this story. We know that ANJIN hates Catholics, but for Toranaga they had to use the Aragorn maneuver (“I did not ask to be king/shogun” etc). Blackthorne’s actions at least are understandable, and you learn about the other characters from Mariko’s info dumps. Toranaga is boring, always was.

Well, it is called "Shogun".

I soooo want to be Shogun but as a man of character I can’t actually say that. It’s my family destiny. But please keep that a secret..

Toranaga is playing the very long game, in the guise of doing it honorably.

Such a strange culture. Endless death, so life must be dressed up in meaningless ceremony

R210

My guess is that you have never stood on yellow footprints. Or have any idea dea what that means.

Not r210, but I didn't. Looked it up and honestly don't give a fuck.

R212

You cared enough to give a fuck and to then do a search and then respond to a comment not aimed at you.

That my friend is caring.

Not giving a fuck would be reserved for those who did not do a search and then did not respond.. That is not giving a fuck, Honestly or not.

Is this a new special meal at Panda Express? Then, yes.

stop

Based on the short time left in the series, I am assuming that ANJIN will never learn conversational Japanese, which is ridiculous. Seems like a bit of an over-correction to me. From white savior to moron….

My cousin had a landscape business and met RC, said he was a really classy person and very cool.

r216, the original series had chamberlain learn NONE

I just found out that Jarvis was born in JERSEY!

Fake news, R218.

I love Cosmo Jarvis - he was in “Persuasion” with Dakota Johnson. Such a sexy man.

At this point, almost as bad as the Das Boot series. At least this one will go away after one season.

I forgot to mention it last episode, but I found the scene where Mariko recites the Lord's Prayer in Latin while Anjin does it in English so beautiful. Europe is about to enter into full-on religious nutjob mode with the devastating Thirty Years' War not even two decades after this scene.

As for this episode, Toranaga's half-brother just has the loveliest, boyish tooshie ever; you could almost make out his hole as he turned around. Made my mouth water.

Fully agree, r223. And he bend over twice!

So the first main change from the book. Surprising

And has Crimson Sky been discarded or is this epi watching CS as it begins to unfold. It was described not just as a plan but a very secret plan.

The only one to realize it’s unfolding being the newly very rich land owning head hooker.

Scary

Remind me how the book was different? I don’t even remember the stupid son, much less the brother plot. And I am sure that Buntaro didn’t threaten Blackthorne like that? All of the characters are crazy, and nothing happens except for conferences at Toranaga’s office.

I haven’t read the book since it came out, but I’m sure Anjin spoke passable, if stumbling, Japanese by the end of it. This show’s Anjin could spend a little more time learning (although he clearly knows how to say You’re all dead) and less time whining about his ship. I was hoping he’d join Yabushige in the hot springs, but alas. I was also hoping Kiku would strangle Saeki, but so many hopes dashed.

When I was a kid I thought Japanese people still lived like that

This version of the series is a great way to for us to see Japanese actors strutting their stuff

R230

A few months before I became a kid the Japanese army still fought like that.

Their military started the modernisation process in 1868 and they certainly didn't fight like that when they kicked the Russian butts in the Russo-Japanese War in 1904/05. You might be old, but you're not *that* old.

R233

I said Japanese army not navy. And their army fought in a way unlike others. Fighting the Germans was almost a civilized fight in WW2 compared to what was going on in the pacific. . And the Chinese, Germans, VC, NVA, Koreans, did not often behead prisoners with swords.

They were different. And I can see the roots of why they were different in this series.

[quote]I said Japanese army not navy.

And I said military, which includes both army and navy. And I stand by what I said – both forces were modernised, starting in 1868, to the point that they thoroughly humiliated the Russians in the aforementioned war, which caused a shock in Europe.

[quote]And their army fought in a way unlike others.

But they didn't fight with katanas, which is what you were implying.

No I was not implying katanas. That would have been idiotic. Only the truly stupid could have thought I was suggesting that the Japanese army fought WW2 with katanas.

Its DL so I don’t expect an intelligent discussion.

Your posts excepted, gentle r236?

R237

I sometimes forget where I am and expect intelligent. Or something that does not always revolve around a man’s asshole.

So you come for the discussion and stay for the men's assholes?

I agree

I am no longer excited about Shogun.

Only three episodes left, so I hope we get to see Anjin's backside or frontside again before it's over. (I'm not here for the men's assholes, just their asses.)

Thank you, poster waaaay upthread for mentioning the extra on Hulu about the show's costumes. It was very interesting but only seven minutes long; it could have easily been half an hour. The shoulders of one robe were covered in what looked like quail feathers, which I didn't notice during the show, thinking it was patterned silk. Emmy nom, please!

Not sure I'd characterize the Germans of World War II as terribly civilized. I do get what you are saying, but we should be careful to remember, the most barbaric people of the 1940s, far and away, were the Nazis.

Well, let’s not forget about what SOMEBODY did to Tokyo and Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Japanese reviews are pretty positive.

I truly have no idea what Toranaga is up to, I'm on the edge of my seat here. Please don't spoil it for me if you know, thank you.

I'll take Buntaro if Mariko doesn't want him, he looked so damn sexy during the tea ceremony. Him, me, and the cutie Father Martin would make a lovely throuple.

Had to rewatch Mariko's "Would you like me to translate that as well? Or was that for me?" line delivery fifteen times, it was out of this world good. Best thing I've seen in ages. Anna Sawai better clean up come the awards season.

Toramaga sounds so weird. I can never get it right. It sounds exactly like a name a white guy would make up.

Oh dear, it’s Toranaga. And yes, made up by white dude.

Oh, DEAR

They seem to have abandoned the book entirely now?

Well. History is what it is so, some things will presumably remain the same, plot wise.

Did gojira show up yet?

I wish

Of course the marketing focused on the attention to Japanese language and costume design - that should have been a warning that some bad writing was on the way (like Christopher Nolan’s books and other twaddle about The Science of Interstellar).

Only a moron thinks this show features bad writing. No offence.

Do you mean dialogue? There’s lots of somewhat passable dialogue, but the story is a fucking mess. They shouldn’t have tried to “improve” on the original story.

R256

It’s always nice to hear from those with very minority views on a subject.

It’s always nice to hear from people with uninformed opinions but lots of confidence.

It’s a runaway hit with fans and critics. About as positive reviews as I have seen in years, And then there are those that complain about everything.

I’m afraid those are people who are blissfully unaware of the book (or the first TV series, which was a close adaptation).

If all people wanted was a shot by shot rehash of the original series they could have streamed that original series. And yes many of us who love this new series actually read the book and saw the original series,

******

Well then all of your taste is in your mouth, no excuses.

For instance, how did it improve things to have Blackthorne not see his crew?

As someone who never read the book or saw the original I find the story somewhat lacking.

- Toranaga is supposed to be great but why? What did he do? ( Some of the sub lords are more interesting and powerful) - inappropriate and unbelievable use of seppuku - the Orientalism of speaking in poems - the back story on a lot of characters - Japanese interactions don't feel authentic - sudden, convenient earthquake - confusing power division

I think many of these holes could be eliminated if it had more time over the course of a few seasons.

Whatever he's gonna do, it's fucking taking for ever. Too much dithering, too much ceremony and ritual.. Too little story. It is not cohesive.

Too much coughing!

I remember the book. My mother read it. It was a very thick, huge book. I Remember the TV series with Richard Chamberlain vaguely. I am watching this and believe me they seem to go over and over the same shit, endlessly talking, talking, talking.There's a problem with pacing and flow.

While I agree that there's a lot of talking (which doesn't bother me), it is sometimes *very* intense talking. Like the scene with Toranaga and his vassals in which Hiromatsu threatened to commit seppuku if Toranaga didn't man up and fight Ishido. The tension just racketed up every minute until, well, yikes! (Not a great day for Buntaro.) But I was so hypnotized by the gorgeous kimonos in the scene with Ishido and Lady Ochiba I nearly missed his marriage proposal to her.

I'm sorry there are only two episodes left. I could easily watch another five.

I could too, it is so gorgeous

It's extremely well done with great production values. I agree with how beautiful it looks. Set design, costumes, etc.

Nobody said it looks bad. Maybe some people might not like the blurry camera effects.

I wouldn't be opposed to little molestation by Father Martin. Don't hate me, I'm just saying what everyone's thinking.

I cried as I typed this

Fascinating seeing Edo (Tokyo) such a small farming village

Looking at photos of the actor who plays Toranaga, He was exceptionally handsome in his earlier work. Seriously. Hiroyuki Sanada.

martial arts star

Shaking and crying and spitting and shitting, what an episode! Best thing I've seen since forever. I will miss Mariko dearly, a TV character for the ages.

Mariko's son isn't the best actor, but his English accent is adorable.

I also wish to have an intimate confession with Father Martin and his huge puppy eyes. 🥺

New episode tonight!

I'm excited

Anybody want to say anything?

Shotgun

Very dramatic and soap opera like

Well, she got what she wanted.

I'd convert to Trumpism if Father Martin asked me to. There, I fucking said it.

I was upset with last night's episode. I really thought it would end differently.

r285 Same, I felt so upset they stole that moment of relief from us. She died for nothing, because there's no way her just standing there did anything except maybe lodged her bones as shrapnel into other people's bodies.

Can we please avoid spoilers?

The episode has already aired, ho!

I have two episodes left!!

Don't put your emotional labour on us, r289!!!

I could listen to Ochiba talk all day. I love the way actress Fumi Nikaido kind of purrs when she delivers her lines. I’ve heard that speaking style before used by a villainess character in a Chinese drama, but Ochiba’s voice is very soothing to me.

But R286, she died to prove that the people in the castle are prisoners, right? Because nobody knew that already, it’s not like Toranaga had to fight his way out of the place.

I thought it was pointless. I agree that maybe it might galvanize the people to stand up, but it was a gamble. The bad guy losing face? I don't think he gave a fuck as long as he was winning. He was treacherous. There was no honor in him. To me what would prove significant is the fact that no one seem to say out loud, until she forced their hand, that they were all prisoners. They seemed to not want to see that until she said it in defiance. and the all those other women came to her to say they wanted out too, and the bad guy knew he was losing so he blew them up. How his brazen act will play out is anyone's guess, but IMO she didn't have to die once she made the point. And He covered his own ass by giving her her permits and telling her she could go. So he could be seen to give her her freedom, and then the explosion.

I love every book written by James Clavell.

In my top ten of the thousands of books I've read in my life? Is Shogun(which I've read more then once).

This series? Left out half the book. Very disappointing. Read the book and read the whole "The Asian Saga ". Tai-Pan and King Rat are excellent.

Neh...........................

“How beautiful life is and how sad! How fleeting, with no past and no future, only a limitless now.” ― James Clavell, Shōgun

The King Rat movie is alright.

Marikogun

R293: Yes, Lord Ishido gave Mariko permits to leave, but then, with two-faced Yabushige's help, still tried to kill her and the other hostages in the night. He was NOT going to let her leave or live. So she died on her own terms, ones she considered honorable and loyal. Poor Anjin-sama...

R294: The movie of Gone With the Wind left out half the novel, too. See also: Any version of Les Miserables or War and Peace. Even at 10 hours, the Shogun writers still have to, as we say here at DL, Move it along, toots.

Anyone who has read the book might be forgiven for thinking that the half of it left out of this show was the relationship between Mariko and Blackthorne. They hardly talked in this show. She was too busy being aggressively, constantly suicidal.

Really lovely. Nice to see the Himeji castle on the horizon in Osaka. Does anyone know what the castle is being built in Edo?

I’d never read the book so I’m reading it now. Really good.

I hope they make up something good for Anjin-sama to do in the last freaking episode. Hope Rodrigues shows up.

Hers was a good death. There was no other way. It was her fate.

She got away from her dumb husband

I expected the finale to be something huge and bombastic, but I actually prefer this serene, poignant ending. Goes perfectly with Toranaga's vision for a new era of peace.

What a show. And what a hole Mariko left behind.

Anjin barely even got to enjoy her hole, tragic!

More naked anjin

You’ll have to settle for topless Yabu.

Only false note in that finale was not seeing Father Martin go up another man.

Yes I love his rubber scalp.

R304

A hole big enough for a very large door

Last episode was 80% people being handed little folded up letters and 20% unrealistic depictions of ritual suicide.

[quote] I love his rubber scalp.

Hot.

Stealth monk fetish thread

Stealth rubber scalp thread

Why did monks make themselves ugly

to make them available to other monks

What a great series. I do wish they had drawn it out more with an extra epi or two.

The shaved head was a sign of humility. It also helped with the lice. R311 has the best summary. Glad it's over. Watching it became burdensome. I waited and waited for something to happen. Not even sure now what it would be. I did get some satisfaction on the top guy chopping off the head of the deceitful, duplicitous shit who allowed the bad guys to blow up Mariko. Is there gonna be a Season 2? Because it began with the Anjin on his deathbed, an old man obviously back in England. And it ended with Torinaga saying the Anjin would never leave Japan.

Season 2 would have to be one of his other books. The one thing we missed seeing at the end was the death of Ishido . He spent as I remember several days wishing and praying someone would lop off his head. And no one did.

A dream of a dream was the title of the epi

Are we sure Pilot made it back to England?

He never made it back to England. Toranaga says that won't happen. In that dream sequence he is holding Mariko's cross, but we see him through that cross into the sea this episode.

I have read that the pilot is mentioned in one of the later books. Years later and he was still in that area of the world and was in business.

I have read , in this case means , think this might be true.

But I agree he will never make it back to England.

[quote]he will never make it back to England

What? And miss out on all that yummy natto?

For those that remember the book better than I

Was Toranaga’s brother a part of Crimson Sky or did he actually turn on his brother?

I think that whole subplot was completely made up. Definitely the betrayal part. Toranaga’s idiot son was not a main character in the book IIRC. The writers got halfway through the book and decided to make up the rest.

Right they made up a subplot about the son that was not in the book

. I understand you do a really long complicated book like shogun or little drummer girl or Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy and try to turn that into a coherent series or movie you are going to leave out a lot and create some new story lines to tie things together.

This series was great

The problem is that they left out the good stuff in favor of their own bullshit.

And I thought it was darn near perfect. Such is life. At least I am the happy one. Yea me.

In the book Blackthorne and Toranaga were friends, and he and Mariko had a stronger relationship. Yabu did not turn into a lunatic, and he gave Blackthorne his sword before he died. Blackthorne had a name and spoke fluent Japanese for most of the story (he was forced to learn it). Etc etc etc.

They were all more well-rounded characters. Instead of Anjin=clown, Toranaga=inscrutable, Mariko=suicidal.

I'm about halfway through and am enjoying it.

For some reason, Blackthorne looks like someone put a young James Purefoy through that AI "in the style of" that has been here on the DL and sounds like a Vegas Richard Burton mimic.

Great job on this adaptation. One of the best shows I’ve scene in a long time. Time for a rematch now.

Also, Blackthorne never made it back to England. Those scenes were a dream he had before regaining consciousness some time after the explosion.

*rewatch

A lotta exposition in the finale and I briefly thought we were being set up for a second season (even though there’s no book for that). Also hoped that the dying old Blackthorne was real because it meant he was able to garner wealth and see his family again. Toranaga’s declaration that he’d burn every ship Blackthorne built was so depressing, essentially keeping him prisoner. He’d never fit in or be accepted.

Well not as written for this series, no. In real life and in the book and in the other series he was not a jackass, and fit in just fine.

It was bleak and the Japans looked depressing.

Somehow I don't think everyone was seppukuing left and right over the tiniest slight.

[quote]Toranaga’s declaration that he’d burn every ship Blackthorne built was so depressing

That's like the least of Toranaga's crimes. Toranaga underneath it all is a power hungry asshole who will sacrifice as many people as it takes to put himself in charge. That is the real man.

The show's called "Shogun" for fucks sake.

You thought he would be kind?

R335

Things did change after 1945

They the Japan Army were slicing off the heads of their enemies, cutting off their balls, stuffing those balls in the enemies mouth, and opening up our own army bellies as late as 1945. We kind of stopped that after 1945 and began to make cars instead.

And as an Army , not the govt not the navy not the emperor, in 1945 we the army of Japan were willing to see every citizen of Japan die rather than give up on a war that was clearly lost.

Death Before Dishonor

Then the fucking yanks dropped those bombs the emperor finally spoke. . And then more bellies were opened..

Lol!

It's funny because Japanese people don't really act that serious in modern dramas.

Modern Japan is much different. The show is like Game of Thrones old Japan.

Finale had such meditative quality to it, like one of the poems we heard throughout the show. Very unlike what we're conditioned to expect in a finale and the more removed I am from it, the more I like it.

I thought the England flash forward was cheesy, it didn't even occur to me that it was a fantasy. Now that I know that, I love it.

I thought the ending was sad. Toronaga lost his oldest friend/advisor/general in a feint to get at the regents and it still took Mariko’s second and finally successful try at suicide to get her girlhood friend to act.

Not a feint it was a critical part of Crimson Sky as was Mariko. He set the table she went in for the kill.

And as far as unhappy look at the Pilot and his happy crew that includes Marikos X all working together for the future.

Pilot is as happy as we have seen him.

His friend's death sells the lie that he is accepting defeat so when Mariko goes to Osaka there is no reason she shouldn't be allowed to leave, Toranaga has accepted the will of the council.

These are all people that Toranaga is killing in order to get power. He even has people in the village killed to find who burns Blackthorne's boat even though he did it himself. Toranaga has no qualms about sacrificing people for his own games.

The one person that never for a moment thought toranaga was giving up and giving in was the senior priest.

All his enemies in Osaka finally believed it.

What a fantastic series. Did it adhere very closely to the book? It did not, but it was its own thing. If I remember correctly -- it's been decades since I read Shogun -- Toranaga captured Ishido in the end and buried him standing in the earth up to his neck and left him to die of exposure. I, too, thought Anjin-sama's dream sequence was real until we saw him throw Mariko's rosary in the sea, which made the dream a bit unnecessary but never mind. Anthony Minghella's film of The Talented Mr. Ripley adds characters and plot points that aren't in the book and still remains true to the story. And speaking of Mr. Ripley, Shogun and Ripley (on Netflix) are two of the best series I've seen in a long while. I would like one of those gorgeous kimonos and a heavy glass ashtray, please and thank you.

The series was crippled by the political/marketing decision to demote Blackthorne from the position of main character. I was not sure if Toranaga was the replacement protagonist or Mariko.

Mariko

Not a suicide or a waste she died using her body protecting others from the blast.

OK I don’t understand the science of that but I do understand the motivation and it made for a great scene in a great series and I am really sorry it is over.

But am starting to watch it all again

“Why tell a dead man the future”

That was kind of unexpected and fun

But he had just spent the last several minutes explaining everything to Yabu! He already had told him the future!

Basically Toranaga explained season 1 to Yabu, and then told him to fuck off when he asked about season 2.

Crippled r348? People loved this series, it was an big success.

And we got a lot of Blackthorne. Just the Japanese characters were actually fully realized characters and existed outside of him.

What exactly was fully realized about Toranaga?

R350

Not everything.

Yabu asked him something else at the end and the T said why tell a dead man the future. A quote from epi 1. Which showed T had more than one spy in that village.

A quote that Yaba had made to his nephew in epi one with as I remember no one else around to hear.

Toranaga's answer was telling. Yabu asked if he was trying to be Shogun, and his future line is a clever tip that yes, he will be the Shogun in the future without saying it out loud.

Some people miss the subtlety of this show.

I saw the previous series so long ago and when a boy, i wonder how the two compare

Anjin took that lady's family ashes on the boat. She looked shocked. Then he pressured her to dump them in the ocean.

Some of this made no sense.

R358

I’d think it made sense to everyone else. Especially that scene on the boat. Amd what a sweet scene with Pilot helping her to find a final resting place for her loved ones where they would be together forever. It’s clear from previous scene those ashes were haunting her.

Maybe the most gentle loving scene of the series.

R356

That he wanted to be Shogun should have been so easy for anyone to see if you knew him how he operated and his family line.

What was a real surprise had nothing to do with his non answer to Yabu about being shogun it was that he was aware of Yabu’s private one on one comment with his own allegedly very trusted nephew from many months ago.

Poor Yuba

The poor emperor in Kyoto was bored out of his mind meditating all day.

Yuba boiled a man alive because he enjoyed hearing the screams.

He was mad that he didn’t get to pillow with her.

weird that japan has had a culture for so many centuries with a entirely useless royal figurehead.

Poor Yuba. Also poor Anjun-sana and Marko.

All that ritual and the suicide culture and other tedious bullshit, it's a miracle they survived as a country.

R365

Well it was a really close call at one time. Really close.

R361

Yaba was a greatly misunderstood man. The boiling was a scientific study to see exactly what happens at the moment of death.

That study aside he was known as a man with a great sense of humor a great dancer although someone who had a difficult time picking sides to be on..