What are the dead giveaways that a woman is closeted?%0D\

Now for the girls...

• Plays the pronoun game. Falls back on male/female stereotypes/Julia Roberts movie type storyline for why she doesn''t have a boyfriend, "I just work so much, it''s hard for a guy to try to fit into my business lifestyle" or something they read on the cover of a magazine. They''ll tell this same sad tale 13 years down the line.

• When you are Kristen Stewart?

• Will not discuss previous relationships.

• A handicap of 5 or less.

• There''s no such thing as a closeted lesbian; women are as a rule braver than men, they''ll always come out no matter what

• [quote]There''s no such thing as a closeted lesbian\ \ \ Oh, puh-lease.

• U-Haul on speed dial.

• "my partner" when referring to lover

• Wears either tennis/running shoes or man shoes all the time.

• She never wears a dress.

• Has a best friend named Gayle.

• R10, there are millions of women who never wear a dress who are not gay.

• They''re married to Christ.

• "Oh she''s just a tomboy."

• Always offers to bring bread pudding as her dish for the party.

• "I don''t like labels. I love a person, and if I meet and fall in love with a person, who cares? Like who really cares, it could be a man, it could be you know, it doesn''t matter."

• won''t pay for dinner when taken to "Ruth''s Chris"

• I agree with R5. There are not real closeted lesbians.

• She''s the one who offers to kill the bugs and spiders for the other girls.

• Trout-breath

• There aren''t any. The majority of closet (femme) lesbians easily pass for straight.

• [quote]There''s no such thing as a closeted lesbian\ \ Not true.

• Is middle-aged and still has "roommates."

• Women, no matter what they look like, are always always always assumed to be straight.

• Divinity School, never married/no kids at 40+.

• When a woman brings a cane with her, even though she can walk.

• r25,\ \ That profile resembled my former pastor... she also did her PhD about gays and lesbians and their role in church. She now adopted two kids and moved to another church. She was extremely nice and intelligent. I don''t know if the rest of the church also wondered about her sexuality.

• Works in higher ed/financial services/the ministry, with a fondness for pantsuits and no marital history.

• Being Secretary of State

  Hils and Condi

• There isn''t one single dead giveaway. Women are tricky.

• Not married doesn''t mean anything.%0D\ %0D\ I am 40 and not married and straight%0D\ %0D\ %0D\ Why would buy the pig when all I need is the sausage?%0D\ %0D\ %0D\ Of course if a pig doesn''t want to make me into a domestic and sexual servant this would change%0D\ %0D\ %0D\ %0D\ %0D\ %0D

  I

• r31, maybe you''re joking, but if you''re not: Then why not try fucking a woman? A woman can strap it on longer and stronger. Seriously, I just want to know from straight women who seem to not love men why they bother.

• [quote]There''s no such thing as a closeted lesbian; women are as a rule braver than men, they''ll always come out no matter what\ \ That''s what I always say!

  Kate Walsh

• They teach math or biology at the high school and also coach the girl''s volleyball/basketball/softball teams.

• R5 and r18 are so wrong. There are scads of lesbian closet-cases, very often married. They hide in plain sight more easily than guys. Look around any mall or public place - hand a cane and a bread pudding to any of the husky, ill-coiffed and clad fraus and - Presto!\ \ Plus it''s easier for a lesbian to play straight - all she has to do is lie there to fulfill her marital obligations.

• Nah, we had some very femme-y straight girl math and science teachers in my high school.

• She''s obsessed with a another woman whom she HATES HATES HATES! She persuades all her women friends and colleagues to HATE HATE HATE her too. Pretty soon, the only thing she has in common with these friends is that HATE HATE HATE, even years later.\ \ Oddly, few of her friends ever catch on.

• Whenever anyone brings up lesbians they loudly state. "I could never be gay. I love penis!" Also loudly proclaims that anything male is "fine!"

  yes this is actually somebody I know.

• r37, you''ve just described perfectly the closeted lez in my workplace. %0D\ %0D\ I''m one of the ones she hates, hates, hates. Ironically, I find her quite attractive. Wait a minute. Could that be why she hates me so much?

• R39 DING! DING! DING! DING! DING!

• "I live with my sister - well, were not really sisters, we met in college and I''m closer to her than my own sister."

• Two girls I know, one straight, the other claims to be straight. Both played softball with me. The one claiming to be straight is totally butch and plays better than most of the men on the team. They were very close friends until straight girl got a boyfriend. Claims to be straight girl FREAKED out about the boyfriend and would get in fights with the straight girl about him, saying how she thought he was wrong for her, etc. Keep in mind, these girls are in their thirties. Claims to be straight girl stopped speaking to straight girl and all her other friends who "took her side" in the boyfriend debacle. I actually confronted Claims to be Straight girl and asked if she was gay for the other girl because she was acting like a jilted lover. She responded that she "knew who she was" and now won''t speak to me either. \ \ In my experience, it''s the butch girls who think they are hiding in the closet.

• The girl I know who overcompensates wears the same thing virtually everyday. She claims to desperately want a man, but can''t find one claiming it''s because she''s overweight. She is not an ugly woman and I see much bigger uglier girls with men all the time so I don''t buy it. She also does a thousand other little things to hold herself back.

  r38

• judging a lesbian beauty contest "for fun".

• likes Tom Cruise

• When they hug other women, they "body-hug", whereas straight women tend to stand about half a foot apart, bend from the waist, and only hug from the shoulders up. I think I heard this in "Claire of the Moon" or another movie, but I''d already observed it, too.\ \ As was detailed upthread, they get insanely jealous when a female friend gets a boyfriend or fiance, and become pretty unhinged... but never can explain why, or why they hate the guy so much. Sometimes they even hate the woman, or sometimes they love the couple, but they just can''t be with them comfortably.\ \ Lots of excuses why they have never dated (or not seriously) and don''t have a bf or husband, but they sound sillier and sillier as the years pass, until you just want to say, "have you ever thought about kissing a woman and seeing if it changes your life?"\ \ R31, having a lot of sex with guys pretty much means nobody''s mistaking you for gay.

• She walks around hiding her goatee inside her turtleneck sweater.

• She''s homelier than most straight chicks.

• Easily wins an arm wrestle with a former high school jock.

• Too busy with school/work to date.

• r46 I also heard about the hugging and I notice it too. I''m not sure where I heard it from either but I thought I remembered hearing Lily Tomlin mention it.

• There is no such thing as a "dead giveaway", since women are complicated, but a pretty good sign is the stubborn refusal to enhance one''s attractiveness.%0D\ %0D\ I speak from experience. As a closeted teen/young adult, I refused to wear make-up or style my hair. I ran around in baggy clothes that hid my figure. I couldn''t count how many times I was told how attractive I could be if I just, etc. etc.

• I worked with a closeted lesbian for a while. When I first met her, she even had a long term boyfriend, although of course that didn''t last. She was pretty butch, never wore makeup or styled her hair, NEVER wore dresses or skirts to work. I think she wore a dress to a company function once, but looked completely uncomfortable in it. Loved football, hockey, and drinking beer. There was nothing girly about her.

• R53, may I ask how old you were when this started? My 10 year old does exactly this. My ex-wife jokes that it figures we would produce a lesbian, but I really do wonder.

• I met her when we were 22. She had met her boyfriend during college, had been together for a few years, but she ended up cheating on him with her female best friend. And once that relationship started, I don''t think she dated a man ever again.

• It started when I was about 11 or 12, and "filled out" with a nice set of boobs and a nice ass. %0D\ %0D\ I started getting a lot of attention from boys all of a sudden, and I didn''t want it.

  R53

• I thought this thread was about giveaways that a woman you are dating is in the closet.

• Short fingernails.

• Ah, yes, R58... why didn''t I think of that one???

• R42, has the closeted lesbian ever got into any fights or arguments with her friend''s boyfriend?

• R52, what is the mindset behind closeted lesbians dressing in an unflattering manner? Sure, I get that they want to keep themselves from getting men interested in them, but isn''t it also some sort of self punishment? I see it as kind of being like a "I''m rejecting femininity" type of statement. But even if they are closeted, you''d still think that they''d still want to look attractive in the eyes of the women that they are attracted to on some level.\ \ Can any of you give any more insight into this?

• [quote]Works in higher ed/financial services/the ministry\ \ Why are these fields singled out? Is it a reason they would be drawn to these careers (aside from the ministry one which is obvious).

• When her pussy has "wolf breath".

  Frank

• You fucking queen @ R61 -- no one has to REJECT femininity -- it takes a tremendous amount of work and money to look the way you gayboys have deemed "feminine." After all, it is you gayboys who define what "feminine" is.%0D\ %0D\ %0D\ All one has to do to reject "femininity" is -- look natural, be yourself, and don''t obsess about your looks -- the same way (straight) men do.%0D\ %0D\ %0D\ Why is spending many hours and hundreds (or perhaps thousands) of dollars on one''s looks considered the height of femininity?

  naturally good-looking lesbian

• She walks with a cane

• I was with someone who was deeply closeted --was with her for two years. wouldn''t come out to family although they all knew and were beside themselves because she wouldn''t admit to anything. \ She was out to some of her friends--all of whom accepted her. But she lied to plenty of other so called friends and they knew too. \ It was a bad scene for me. I waited and hoped she would come out and she never would live an honest life. I finally gave up. Who can live a lie like this ? You would be amazed. Plenty of women---and men, too

• R64, I guess I wasn''t only talking about clothes. I was talking about horrible haircuts, slovenly appearance, and wearing clothes that hide their bodies when they could go for a natural look like you mentioned that doesn''t take much work. I wasn''t talking about getting very dressed up or being fashionable. Someone can be pretty and low key.\ \ A lot of lesbians seem like they are trying to do themselves in when it comes to how they present themselves. I just don''t get it.

  R61

• Marries someone she knows to be queer.

• [quote]what is the mindset behind closeted lesbians dressing in an unflattering manner? \ \ This isn''t a blanket statement but in my experience there is quite a bit of self-loathing and low self-esteem involved. It''s not about rejecting femininity at all, it''s about trying to blend into the background because you just don''t feel worthy of attention from anyone, romantic or platonic. It''s like armor, I guess. \ \ Of course, other people have their own reasons including things like gender politics, etc.

• R61, I don't know if you're a man or a woman, but the first thing you have to appreciate is how different the male experience of burgeoning sexuality is from a female's. You will NEVER hear a tale about a gay male making himself look less attractive to get women to leave him alone. %0D %0D First of all, men are bigger, stronger, and MUCH more sexually aggressive than women. What you probably can't appreciate is how intimidating it is to be a young girl and suddenly be subjected to aggressive, unwanted sexual attention from men.%0D %0D As an example, when I was about 12, my older sister's boyfriend, who was 16, apparently thought I was cute, because just about every time she turned her back, he was all over me, wrestling with me and pulling my shirt up or pulling my pants down. I couldn't even begin to fight him off. It was horrible and traumatic. I hated him and just wanted to be left alone.%0D %0D I wanted NO attention from males, and making myself as unattractive as possible worked for me. %0D %0D When I got older and more self-confident, I finally got over that.

• r69 most lesbians are fucked up emotionally!

• Thanks R69, that makes a lot of sense to me. I can see what you mean about lesbians(and it''s not just closeted ones) dressing this way because they feel badly about themselves and don''t feel worthy of anyone''s attention. I guess that it''s not that they are rejecting femininity, but that they don''t feel feminine.\ \ It''s weird how some lesbians, before they come out, are very quiet, subdued, submissive, and shy. On the other hand there are the stereotypically aggressive and abrasive lesbians. It''s like they are two sides of the same coin.

• bump

• Wow r46 I never thought of that. they woman I work with is always trying to hug the other women at work and she is a full body hugger. If one of the women refuses a hug she gets despondent and has even cried as a result.

  r38

• The level of closeted you are talking about also factors in, but one sure-fire way to spot a gay woman, even one who is so closeted she pretends to live a straight life, or won''t even admit it to herself, is to watch the way she watches other women. Observe how she looks at other women, her body language, how she acts and responds to them, it becomes much clearer. And once you factor in other information about them, you can make an educated and often correct guess.\ \ Of course, I do the reading body language with everyone for a variety of reasons for most of my life, so maybe i''m making this more obvious than it is, but if you learn to use it, it is very effective.\ \ It can be used for men too obviously, but it''s easier to tell with men, (even the most masculine gay men). I just don''t find that men are able to hide as well as women, women are just better at hiding or more adept at hiding, i''m not sure why.

• More details about the closeted lesbians who get insanely jealous when their straight female friends have a boyfriend/husband.

• R75, besides the staring, what are some of the other behaviors/body language tip offs?

• I think the hug thing is more relevant to the older generations than it is to the younger ones. People my age are very touchy-feely, male or female, straight or gay. Full-body hugs wouldn''t make us raise an eyebrow even.\ \ I''ve seen straight girls, laying their heads on their friends laps and sitting in their laps. I''ve seen straight guys give full-bear hugs where they lift each other off the ground.\ \ Different generations, different levels of physical affection.

• Well, I find that the women who are closeted to the point where they are living a lie, will actually avoid any and all kinds of physical contact with other women. I think they are afraid that they will give themselves away, or someone will know.\ \ It is difficult to single out different signs one should look for; as context, levels of closetedness, and various other things must be factored in. Approach it in the manner of a full assesment/overview, taking all things into consideration/context. I don''t know that I am doing a good job explaining it. I do a better job explaining things in person, pointing them out as I am witnessing/observing them.\ \ People are puzzles, you can''t judge them by one piece, but it''s fun to see the picture come together.

  r75

• Belongs to Queen Latifah''s entourage.\ \ Thinks Mel Gibson is a wonderful, if flawed, human being.

• r60, no fights with the boyfriend. In fact, they all three used to be friends before the Straight girl started dating the guy. It wasn''t until they started dating that Claims to Be Straight went berserk and suddenly didn''t like the guy. \ \ The sad thing is, Claims to be Straight would make a wonderful lesbian and would probably have a lot of butch lovin'' girls all over her if she would come out. Instead, she drinks heavily and puts herself on dating sites trying to find a man. The one boyfriend she did have was very femmy. She was also engaged once and ran away clear across the country to avoid marriage.

• Thanks for the info, R81.\ \ Do these jealous closeted lesbians not realize how transparent they are? The denial is hilarious.

• I''ve seen more than a few friends tortured for years in relationships with closeted women. \ \ I would avoid having a relationship with a closeted lesbian the way a clean human being should avoid getting close to a diseased animal.

• Give us some details about what your friends went through, R83.

• I dated a closeted woman once. My first girlfriend, actually. We were together almost 5 years. She refused to tell her family and most of her friends. It was a nightmare. Whenever I was around her family, I had to be "the friend." Her mother once told her that if she continued to hang around with me so much that she would never find a boyfriend. \ \ Finally, after 4 years of this, she was leaving to go to Mexico for an eye operation as someone in her family there was an eye doctor. She informed me that for two weeks she wouldn''t be available to me because she couldn''t tell her parents, who were going with her, why I would be calling her. \ \ I broke up with her when she returned.

• Synopsis of one example: College girlfriends. "Soul-mates." Years of teary clandestine secret meetings, secret gifts, notes, letters, pronoun games, vacations, even a shared apartment at some point. The closeted one eventually married her male best friend to please her parents, and for a few years was able to make sure both he AND the lesbian "love of her life" were miserable. Then, she got preggers. After about a dozen "break-ups," my friend finally hit the road. The closeted, married, mother pursued her. My friend had to remain disciplined to the Nth degree in not responding. Eventually, the closeted lesbian left her alone. Now, my friend has fallen in love with someone so much better, prettier, more interesting and intelligent. She's out, and they're building a great life together. Everyone is in the closet at some point. But if a woman is willing to commit to an LTR, she better be ready to own her participation in that relationship, no matter what. It's the difference between living for oneself and living, as a child, for everyone else.

• Sorry. r86 = r83.

• Thanks for the info. Do you know what has happened to the closeted lesbian since the breakup?

• Not sure if you''re asking me or r86, but no, I don''t know what happened to my first girlfriend. I make it a policy to not stay in contact with my exes. I would guess she might have eventually married a man since that was what her family wanted.

  r85

• Writes really long posts on online message boards.

• R61/R67 and the others who seem to think that women not dressing up or putting on makeup means they must have low self-esteem and are trying to blend in or avoid attention, do you realize how idiotic you sound?%0D %0D Does that mean that every straight male in the entire world has low self-esteem and is trying to blend into the background to avoid attention? There isn't a bigger bunch of unkempt, slovenly pigs in the world than straight men. It's only your standards that are different. %0D %0D The entire "she'd be really pretty if only..." bullshit is society holding women to idiotic, make-believe standards.%0D %0D [quote]I can see what you mean about lesbians(and it's not just closeted ones) dressing this way because they feel badly about themselves and don't feel worthy of anyone's attention. I guess that it's not that they are rejecting femininity, but that they don't feel feminine.%0D %0D Honestly, I can't fathom people who would get up and, when getting dressed in the morning, even consider what anyone else thinks about them, especially in a casual, day-to-day environment. Are there actually people who's self-worth is so dependent on other people's opinions that they spend even one moment thinking about how they look to run to the grocery store or to spend the day shopping, etc.? Talk about low self-esteem.%0D %0D And, do you realize what a loaded statement "feeling feminine" is? Who is defining what is feminine? What is the cost of not falling in line with the dominant paradigm? I mean, are you kidding with this?%0D %0D [quote]A lot of lesbians seem like they are trying to do themselves in when it comes to how they present themselves. I just don't get it.%0D %0D Do you morons even know any lesbians? Do themselves in? WTF? How dare those uppity women not conform to my standards, they must not like themselves if they are unwilling to bend to my will and aren't jumping at the chance to let me and society define them!%0D %0D Straight women and gay men with their put-on pretentiousness and inability to even fathom not conforming to society's standards of femininity seem like ridiculous, dance-on-command puppets.%0D %0D %0D

• I''m sorry, but most of the lesbians I''ve known were not very pretty or fashion minded. True, straight women carry the fashion thing way too far. But I''m just sayin'' that I, personally, have never known a lipstick lesbian.

  Then again I don''t pay that much attention to the girls

• That''s because the lesbians that are not pretty and fashion minded are the ones that stick out, R92.People believe that is what lesbians look like when in reality we come into contact with a dozen lipstick lesbians everyday without us knowing it. It''s the same thing with [childish epithet posted by a bigoted tool] gay men. They immediately stick out and most people don''t even entertain the idea that a handsome, muscular man might be gay.

• Married to a much younger man.

• wow, big majority of everything here is true...%0D\ %0D\ but, bigger question is- how to stay in the closet until you find a way to leave somewehere you don''t have to be so paranoidly closeted? I''m 30, highly educated, good looking but I don''t have boyfriends and I live in a very very conservative country.... have to figure how to cover myself since in current conditions there''s no way to make that step out...-(

• She looka likea man?

  Miss Swann

• What would anyone think about a reportedly straight woman who takes you out to expensive restaurants; buys you clothes; showers you with gifts. Allows you to stay at her place whenever she is away on business. Arranges to meet your mother behind your back. When you do go out there''s nothing to talk about because she refuses to share her thoughts or real feelings. On top of that has an appalling dressing sense, works in finance-business. When you''re too quiet calls you coy. She''s sporty, at university was part of the rugby team. I just don''t know what to think anymore.......help!

• R91, I already said all of that, yet my post was a lot shorter. But thanks for playing.%0D\ %0D\ %0D\ No wonder these gayboys think lesbians are bitter.

  R64

• r88, I dont know. \ \ I would guess that the ex has just resigned herself to the small, passionless joys of a loveless marriage. And has probably thrown herself into her kids.

• She notices when another womann is wearing pantyhose and makes constant "humorous" comments about it.

• Having short nails used to be a clear sign, but in the last few years, it isn''t a differentiator. Some women just can''t grow nails, and since sculptured nails are out to all but the classless, many straight women just have short nails...

• [quote]I already said all of that, yet my post was a lot shorter. But thanks for playing.\ \ Meow. What a humorless cunt you are.

  go change your tampon

• Go wash your diseased asshole, misogynistic dick at r102.

• [quote]naturally good-looking lesbian\ \ Now there''s an oxymoron.

• r64 and r91 are dead on\ \ Why do all the women-related threads have so much misogyny in?\ \ and i agree with whoever said short fingernails..

• Gay men loathe lesbians, I don''t get it. what happened to family?

• r97, your friend is crazy. Not worth the drama. Might be gay, might just be insane. Sometimes it''s hard to tell with women.

• bump

• R98, I said it better. You''re post at R64 was petulantly childish and uninformative. You''ve proven that is true to your character with you subsequent post. Get some help.

• you''re = your

• She keeps following you home

• She shoots koosh balls into the audience.

• She has fish breath

• When she gets married three times and gives birth to five children and stars in two movies about Betty Broderick.%0D

• R109? You''re the one who sounds like a real bitch. Go back to your drum circle and your 12-step meeting.

• I don't get the misogyny, but there is also a lot of unfounded backlash to gay men from lesbians. I'm not trying to stir the pot, but I do want to point it out. I have a large family and 2 lesbian cousins, slightly older, were the first I came out to. We went to a lesbian identified vegetarian place for dinner. From my memory, I was the only male there. Several times, from the hostess, the waitress and a patron of the restaurant behind us, I was made to feel like I was unwelcome. I didn't have any gay male friends yet, so I continued hanging out with the lesbian cousins. This continued. I had to wait outside certain places to see if it was ok if I could come in to certain bars. I love gay women particularly because they tell it like it is. But I sometimes wonder why the deep mistrust of gay men. Yes, I guess I've seen the answer here from time to time. It just seems so stupid. I live in a small town now, and there is no other choice for a gay bar. You have to mix, and I think it's a good thing. I still love my lesbos. I hang out with them probably more than with my gay friends. (I've known them longer) They also point out who's either trying to hit on me or wants to, because I'm clueless when it comes to figuring out.

• R79 is a winner.\ \ I was closeted in my mid/late 20s and avoided physical contact with ANY women like it was a plague. I refused to talk about anything gay or lesbian but had VERY big ears for anyone else discussing those topics. \ \ I also complained, a lot, about not being able to find a guy. Eventually, a very sweet man wanted to date me. We dated for a year (I know, I know - I suck for leading him on for so long) and then I intentionally sabotaged it and he broke up with me.\ \ When I was ready to start being honest with myself and others, I started by telling my friends that I was bisexual ... I never used the word lesbian.\ \ And, for the record, I was very feminine - long hair, high heels, short skirts/Ally McBeal Suits, painted nails, makeup, etc.

• Having short nails used to be a clear sign, but in the last few years, it isn''t a differentiator. Some women just can''t grow nails, and since sculptured nails are out to all but the classless, many straight women just have short nails...%0D\ %0D\ %0D\ %0D\ **********Those of us who still have acrylics know better than to wear the curved DRAGON LADY tips oh so loved by hookers and Sheniquas everywhere. One can have very nice, short acrylics, with a natural looking french manicure, as opposed to those ugly large white square tips which take up half of the nail bed.

• she''s really good at playing virgins and mentally ill people, and never has a boyfriend.

• Earrings%0D\ %0D\ Caftans

• roadkill

• when her hair is always up.?.. And she dresses like a boy

• hungry eyes

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rI4fzajz3Ok

• R115, we already understand you''re insane, no need to continue to prove it.

• [quote]Are there actually people who''s self-worth is so dependent on other people''s opinions that they spend even one moment thinking about how they look to run to the grocery store or to spend the day shopping, etc.? Talk about low self-esteem.%0D\ %0D\ My mother inculcated upon me at an early age that it was a Class A felony to leave the house without wearing lipstick, [italic]even if it''s to go to the emergency room[/italic]. So yes, some of us do take 10 seconds to put on lip gloss or whatever, and we don''t care that it fucks with someone else''s paradigm.

• What if your mother had told you to join the Klan? Would you have done that, too?

• They try to hide their truck driver knuckles by wearing gloves.

• [quote]So yes, some of us do take 10 seconds to put on lip gloss or whatever, and we don''t care that it fucks with someone else''s paradigm.%0D\ %0D\ You''re not fucking with any paradigm, you''re kneeling down and sucking it off and then thanking it for allowing you to do it.%0D

• Piss of R128. I put make up everytime I leave my house: for ME, because it makes ME feel good. This is for me a way to take care of myself. %0D\ %0D\ You feel good without make-up ? Good for you. But it doesn''t mean those who do are pressured by wathever the so called society want.

  I never go out without doing my bed too.

• I agree with [R129]

• [quote]some of us do take 10 seconds to put on lip gloss or whatever\ \ You just know r125 weighs 300 pounds but doesn''t leave the house without lip gloss.lol.

• R125 can''t rely on natural beauty hence the make up every! time she leaves the house.%0D\ %0D\ Re nails I hate long nails they break and split.

• i believe natural beauty is most catching to the eye. Women with an overload of make up look horrifying, plus they look dead once its all off. Tip for the ladies out there just keep it simple natural look. its sexier.

• I agree with R128

• R32: The idea of oral sex on a woman grosses me out. Sorry (you asked). However, I''m fine with lesbians as friends. Actually, I prefer their company to *most* straight women.

  never married, straight female, 41

• I find gay women so hostile and don''t get me wrong I''m a lesbian myself, but they''re so.... cranky. I wish they were more fun-like gay guys.

• Espeacially the butches!

• Oh, r128.\ \ It''s not sucking off a paradigm, you Foucaultian fuckwit. I''m not the person you were responding to originally, but let''s all take a moment to regain sanity. It''s enhancing one''s aesthetic assets. I love my tits. I love my ass. I wear fitted clothes to compliment the hour-glass shape I have. I wear lip gloss and mascara and occasionally eye shadow because it enhances the beautiful eyes and pink lips I have. \ \ I wear my hair short because I like it short, but I the earrings, necklace, etc. are to enhance the body i was given. \ \ And I''m a proud five-star fucking lesbian who believes women (and gay men) are in general superior to straight men. \ \ If anyone is sucking off a paradigm, it''s the army of West Coast uber-butch gender queers who flatter masculinity by copying it over and over and over.

• I qualify as someone that when younger appeared to not care about my appearance. I never wear a dress. I do not manicure and have short nails. I wear minimal makeup, if at all. I don''t "fix" my hair. I only wear sensible shoes. My most intense relationships over the years have all been with other women, although the relationships were nonsexual, yet I''ve always had a boyfriend. When I got older I thought perhaps if I am so closeted that I didn''t even know it! I prayed that kissing a woman would be an opening to understanding something about myself. But unfortunately it didn''t. I guess I''m just not really that sexual, although I''ve been told I''m sexy often. I don''t get it. %0D\ %0D\ The point of this is there are so many variations on the theme of where people are on the sexual spectrum that no one specific thing holds true for anyone.%0D\ %0D\ I was pretty unhappy when I realized I wasn''t a lesbian to be honest.

• Never wears a dress.\ \ Sensible shoes.\ \ Loves to play gold.

• Oops! Loves to play golf.

• Loves to play gold?

• [quote]Married to a much younger man.\ \ Whoa -- good one

• Well, I don''t play golf so I guess that settles it.

  r 139

• R131 lol

• R129/R138, where do you think your ideals of what makes you feel good and/or feminine came from? That''s kind of the definition of societal paradigm. Others (mostly men, gay and straight) have defined what is considered feminine and beautiful and you''re doing what they''ve defined to fit that model. The fact that it makes you feel good just means that fitting in makes you feel good. That''s fine but don''t hold it up as only a personal preference that''s solely your own doing as if it''s not doing exactly what is societally proscribed as ''normal''.

• Please post a picture of yourself R146.

• R146, some women are just born girly. They love pretty things and love to make themselves pretty. Women have been adorning themselves for thousands of years. You act like femininity is some kind of perversion of nature.

• You first, dumpling.

• R148 honestly, go back to school or if you''ve never been to one get yourself an education...

  not R146

• I don''t wear make-up, and it has nothing to do with any attempt to stave off the men or blend in. I''m just fugly, and no amount of lipstick or mascara is going to change that. Why bother?

• By the way, R146, do you have any clue how misogynistic YOUR attitude is? You act like men are in charge of everything. Men don''t define feminine beauty, feminine beauty is defined by and is the exclusive venue of women (and a few feminine men).

• The dumpling statement was for R147.%0D\ %0D\ R148, it''s not a perversion of nature. It has absolutely nothing to do with nature. It''s a perversion of equality. The fact that women go along with it so easily and have so internalized an outside definition of beauty or what makes them worthwhile to society is disheartening.%0D\ %0D\ The biological theory as to why women have fuller lips and bigger eyes, etc., is that those are determining factors in attracting a male mate to procreate with. That is the only nature part of this equation. If straight women want to accentuate those things in order to get a mate, fine, but they can''t argue that they are doing it for themselves because that is simply not true. There is no reason for lesbians to do it at all except to conform to societally set male beauty standards even though there is no biological need to do so. %0D\ %0D\ %0D\ %0D

• I must say R146, that I am with R129 / R138 on this. Looking pretty and enhancing one's natural femininity makes a femme lesbian girl feel confident. In some women this need really is innate, and it is not necessarily something entirely imposed from the outside by male-dominated society. %0D %0D You can scream about society's structure and the source of that structure all you want, but I find there is also a certain power in being able to look attractively "straight" even if everyone knows I am a lesbian. I agree it is absolutely not fair and it is not PC.%0D %0D When I need a certain social entree outside my own group, I make sure I look my feminine best. It makes me feel socially confident and I can use my appearance to control the responses of the people I come in contact with.%0D %0D When I am with my own group I dress as I please. Right now I am pulling a silver flask out of the back pocket of my heavy black jeans. I have a couple of shots of "california moonshine" left, and I'd like to offer both of them to you. %0D

  Next Life On Lesbian Only Planet

• R152, you are completely wrong. The reason the lips, eyes, breasts and ass are the markers of "beauty" that are accentuated with make-up and surgery is due to millennia of male mating pressure. %0D\ %0D\ I second R150''s suggestion that you go back to school.

• r128 don''t you know when OTHER women do it, it''s because they''re sucking off the patriarchy paradigm? But when THESE women do it, it''s because they''re empowering themselves by showing off their assets.

  It''s sooo obvious, duh!

• R154, you''re actually making my argument for me by saying you dress one way for society in general and one way for yourself and your group. It''s society''s feminine standards that you are trying to meet when you dress for those outside your group. By definition, you are not then dressing for yourself. It''s all an image you want to project and in this very male-dominated world, it is the male-defined image you are going for.%0D\ %0D\ The real you is the one you are when you are alone and with your group. Everything else if for show.

• oh my, the lesbians always go crazy over simple questions.

• R146/150, all I can surmise is that you''re young and haven''t been around many little kids. I was a tomboy myself growing up, and found my super-girly little nieces a revelation. They love pink, they love flowers, and my sister - who rarely wears makeup - has to fight to keep them out of her makeup drawer.

• My god, some women just like girly, feminine things. They like getting their hair done, wearing makeup, wearing dresses. It''s not that deep. And frankly, it''s demeaning and condescending to think that all women who enjoy dressing up/wearing makeup somehow don''t know their own mind and are only doing it to fit in with some kind of societal paradigm. Most women dress for other women. The men are secondary.

• R159, do you really not think that societal definitions, especially now where kids start watching tv practically in-utero, don''t start early enough to influence small children? %0D\ %0D\ I am around little children on a daily basis. The two girls are opposites in that area. The one doesn''t like the girly stuff and the make-up, the other one is fascinated with it. Their personalities so far in other areas have shown me that the one who like the makeup and dressup stuff is much more easily influenced by what others think of her whereas her sister who doesn''t care about the girly stuff couldn''t care less what others think of her.%0D\ %0D\ The innate personality trait you are seeing is not any form of innate feminity (because there can be no innate trait that is defined by society) but more likely an innate will to please others and fit in versus an innate will to do it their own way.

• Fuck school. All I know is that I get horny for long, soft silky hair - not some buzz-cut knob, and I want to wrap my legs around someone with warm, soft, smooth skin - not some gender queer chick with burlap thighs. If you want that, it''s all yours, girlfriend.

  R146/152

• It seems easier to have hetrosexual female friends or gay male friends to having gay female friends. It would seem they prefer to be with ladies than other gay people who are men.

• [quote]The biological theory as to why women have fuller lips and bigger eyes, etc., is that those are determining factors in attracting a male mate to procreate with. %0D\ %0D\ Nature made ladies beautiful so that I too would want to undress them and make love to them. If a woman enhances her natural beauty, all the better. %0D\ %0D\ By the way, R151 ,not making an effort to look your best is just short changing yourself. Looking your best does not necessarily mean wearing makeup or lipgloss. Even if a woman considers herself fugly, she is never going to be as fugly as a fugly man. That is nature''s softening influence on women.

  Next Life On Lesbian Only Planet

• R160, all of evolutionary science says otherwise but you keep on believing whatever makes you happy.%0D\ %0D\ Let me ask you this, were Chinese footbinding and that tribe where the women deform their collar bones by elongating their necks with rings to the point of crippling themselves also just simple, voluntary, female-defined beauty standards that had nothing to do with the male-dominated cultures they lived in?%0D\ %0D\ I guess the girly girls of America should just be grateful that a little makeup and an occasional dress are all that are required of them to play their role, huh?

• R161, my sister is pathological about what her kids are exposed to - they do NOT watch tv. About all they''ve ever been exposed to is Baby Einstein videos.%0D\ %0D\ Maybe I just have a woman-centered view of the world. To me, everything about how men present themselves and live their lives is to increase their appeal to women. They even invented the institution of marriage - to their sexual detriment - to guarantee access to a woman of their own.

• Jesus, you start a thread and the bloody lesbos turn it into Feminist theory 101. Girls, this is DL, no one from ''Spare rib'', ''Ms'' or ''Newsweek'' is going to read this. Just get over yourselves and get back on track....

  OP

• She has a secret stash of lesbian themed books in her library.

• ...errr under her bed

• My goodness R157. I was a tomboy growing up and yes I most certainly do dress feminine intentionally to enchance my social power. I enjoy my power to elicit positive responses from other people as soon as they see me. It is true that dressing feminine is not always innate. %0D\ %0D\ However R128/ R139 is talking about something else entirely. R128 / R139 was not a tomboy as a kid. She was a girly-girl and she likes to look pretty and enhance her lovely assets. She was like that before she got exposed to "male-dominated" society. Femininity is a natural thing and it most certainly can be innate.%0D\ %0D\ In a better world we could all just go naked.%0D

  Next Life On A Lesbian Only Planet

• Over 40, married to a vaguely [childish epithet posted by a bigoted tool] man, no children, seems to be fascinated with me.%0D

  Next Life On A Lesbian Only Planet

• I''ll play. 1) Has no close female friends; or 2) married to a much older man (Daddy).

• [quote]I''ll play. 1) Has no close female friends; or 2) married to a much older man (Daddy).\ \ Why would she have no close female friends?.

• "Why would she have no close female friends?"%0D\ %0D\ For me, if I ever got emotionally close to a woman, I almost inevitably started having romantic/sexual feelings for her. Kind of like the lesbian version of men & women can''t be friends.%0D\ %0D

• No, r146, it's pretty simple. You don't put a Jeep cover on a Porsche and vice versa. i wear clothes that flatter and conform to the body the good Lord gave me. I respectfully disagree with what r154 said in terms of what works for me. Dressing in a feminine way is not innate for me. It's an aesthetic decision. I do not feel the need to "pass as straight-looking." Though I do dress in a feminine way, I prefer suits and slacks to dresses, prefer short hair to long and wear only heels that are comfortable. But even then, I tend toward flats. I wear a skirt or dress every now and again but not much. I wear lipstick and eye makeup and show off my tits, because these are some of the best things about my body. I like them. I accentuate them. Sometimes, I wear more feminine men's cologne, because I like the way it smells on me. It's a personal style that works for me, according to what best flatters my body and what best suits my comfort level. It has nothing to do with conforming to or defying any paradigm. Keep your queer and gender theories off of my body.

  r138

• And FTR, I dont give a shit how anyone else dresses.

  r138/175

• Watches professional sports and seems to enjoy it even when not with a man.

• Some of you aren''t paying attention. Almost EVERY FUCKING THING that straight men do, from dying on the battlefield, to working themselves to death in coal mines, to splitting the atom, is to be seen as heroes and garner the approval and attention of their mothers, girlfriends, and wives. Hardly comparable to some girl slathering on some lip gloss to look more fuckable.

• R178, the ignorance you''ve shown over and over in this thread is astonishing. You simply do not know what you are talking about.%0D\ %0D\ You keep saying your womancentric and whatever else but most of your posts put women down.%0D\ %0D\ Your post at R178 is the most ridiculous yet. As if the only things women do to ''get their man'' is to slather on some lip gloss while the men do all the actual work. Are you nuts? Do you even know any hetero women? Their entire lives are devoted to the pursuit and maintenance of men. Yes, there''s an occastional ''whipped'' man out there but did you happen to notice that there''s no word even to use for ''whipped'' women? That''s because that''s the expected state of the hetero woman, subservient. Ninety percent of the world is religious and 100% of religions shit on women. These things are not coincidence.%0D\ %0D

• Do you know any straight men, R179? I do. For every controlling macho asshole, there are 9 guys whose wives fucking own them and treat them like their personal slaves. I''m sorry you don''t recognize how much power women wield simply by how much control they have over men.

• Owns a pit bull or two.

• R180, you are just making a bigger fool out of yourself.

• R179, your merciless verbal abuse is turning me on. I think I''m in love. Where do you live exactly, and are you single?

  R178

• R183, even your attempted wit is lacking.

• This thread has turned into the Michfest forum.

• I''m not trying to be funny, R184, I love women who are strong-minded and opinionated, even if they disagree with me, and I think that quality in you is as hot as fuck. I''m showing you respect. You win.

  R178

• Looks femme, presents as single and has a flawlessly organized, big red rolling toolchest full of the finest tools in her garage.

• Insane. One (and just ONE) poster can destroy a whole thread just because she obvioulsy, has a serious problem with men. Or maybe was rejected by a woman who wore make-up. Probably hadn''t an orgasm in a few years too. Wait... orgasm is also a myth because, you know, we just believe what the society want us to believe.

• Her favorite TV show of all time is Xena Warrior Princess

• Yeah, you are right R188, this thread got out of hand. However I still enjoyed reading it. I especially liked the part where "womancentric" told "gender queer theory" that this fight was turning her on. %0D\ %0D\ I''d like to put those two in a Roman style "animal fight" contest. I can see it now: the two nude separately caged women are raised to the coliseum floor and then released to fight not to the death, but to the fuck. The audience has previously placed bets on the number of multiple orgasms that will be produced.%0D\ %0D\ Oh yeah, this thread was about "dead giveaways that a woman is closeted"..

• She does not have any female friends and she does not date men. All her friends are homosexual men.

• Her second favorite show is Wonder Woman.

• Married with no children. She was mysteriously obsessed about the film "Fried Green Tomatoes". When confronted, she swore she did not know it was based on a lesbian themed book by Fannie Flagg.

• She has Playboy and Penthouse in her bedroom drawer and she says she reads them for the articles.

• She has no dress sense

• [quote]One (and just ONE) poster can destroy a whole thread just because she obviously, has a serious problem with men. \ \ I thought it was several posters who have a serious problem with women.

• I guess the battling clothes theoreticians went to bed...

• she loves moon pies

• One of her favorite shows is The L World... because of the superior acting.

• She handed me money and asked me to go buy the boxed set of The L Word for her so that she could give it as a gift to a "friend" whose husband "liked the acting"

  Dammit, I Know She''s Gay And I Want Her

• R200, that was funny and clever XD

• p/e teacher, short hair, either no make-up or a smidge of poorly applied lipstick, lumbers along like a truck driver, penchant for pant suits, married to a very queeny guy, no kids.

• We were out shopping together and she pinched the copy of Vogue that I bought at the bookstore. This issue featured some lesbian innudendo type designer ads and an article about lesbians. Her husband returned the purloined magazine to me explaining he found it in their bedroom.

• Intense friendships begun way too eagerly with women, gay or straight. Something goes wrong; a misunderstanding. She often says, "My ex-friend So and So" and "Anyway we''re not talking these days."

• Post at R70 has more truth in it than any other.

• One buzzcut a day keeps the mens away!

  Expressionless lesbian face

• Sorry, r205.

• I mean, Sorry, r70. For what you went through.

• @R70, you''re bubble-headed

• Two words for ya......Mariska Hargitay!!!

• She is named Julianna Margulies.

• Julianna Margulies is a total frau

• [quote]Julianna Margulies is a total frau%0D\ %0D\ A closeted frau

• more

• bump%0D

• Hating butch women is just the lesbian version of "self-loathing."%0D\ %0D\ %0D\ That is all.

• She was attractive and femme and outwardly conservative and religious. She was my high school English teacher. She lived with her "sister", in a very fine home in the nicer part of town. When she assigned us an essay on beauty, the example she gave was a description of what she personally found beautiful in women. Yes she was in the closet and so was I, but I soon realized she knew I was gay. I was puzzled when she suggested I read Andre Gide''s "The Immoralist". This was not an assignment for the class, it was just a suggestion to me. I had never heard of the book and I could not find it in our school library. Of course, it was not in our school library for a reason. When I finally found the book at a bookstore and I realized that it was about homosexuality I was stunned. I am a lesbian and she directed me to a book about a closeted gay man accepting his sensual nature and confronting his homosexuality. Thinking about this today makes me smile.

• Bingo r50

• R216, I''d say a lesbian woman pretending she''s a man is the actual self-hating part.

• She is smart and funny and beautiful and femme and she is obsessed with homosexuality. When she posts here she makes sure everyone knows she is a "straight gal".

  Its Okay Sweetie We Got Your Number

• When she spends most of her time hanging out with her male co-star''s friends.

  Robert Pattinson

• Spotting butch lesbians is easy:%0D %0D * Bad hair%0D * no make-up%0D * jeans/trainers/baggy tops%0D * smell fusty or of mens after shave%0D * Unstylish like all the time%0D * short nails%0D * usually veggie/vegan %0D * usually volunteer for shit to make friends/get over depression (about being fat and insecure)%0D * usually fat but wont diet as it's 'playing up to hetero norms'%0D * do a mans job or work in the charity/public sector%0D * Go on walking/cycling holidays%0D * If you mention dior they think you need help with carpentry%0D * drink 'pints' or 'halves' when driving%0D * if smoke, lights up their ciggy with matches%0D %0D & spotting high fems is easy:%0D %0D * well dressed; not trashy not uptight%0D * immaculate make-up%0D * great, shiny hair%0D * stocking or holdups - never tights (tights reveals an inner butch tendency)%0D * heels - even your slippers have to have heels%0D * Manicure/pedicure%0D * can spot a versace at 200 paces%0D * says things like; "oh lordy! the things you see when you haven't got your gun" when seeing a bugly at 100 paces.%0D * will never serve another lady a drink in a pint glass%0D * the bed and house is always immaculate%0D * eats meat%0D * can hold a conversation with anyone%0D * is usually hate, hate, hated by buglys (see above). Psychological theory suggests this hate emanates from the bugly's inner knowledge that they can never have a woman like this.%0D %0D *S%0D %0D %0D %0D

  Juicy Lucy

• will watch any tv show with a lesbian/bi character no matter how bad it sucks.

• I recognize myself from most of these posts.%0D\ %0D\ I loathe myself and I know that most of you, if you actually, knew me, would loathe me too.%0D\ %0D\ I wish I could kill myself as I''d rather be dead than living this closeted, painful, unfulfilled, useless life I''m living.%0D\ %0D\ Flame away as I know that''s what you all love to do.

• Are you taking the piss R224?%0D\ %0D\ "if you actually, knew me, would loathe me too." I doubt it. It''s easy to be a bitch on t''internet but real people (warts ''n'' all) show their emotions in their eyes - surely only a Nazi would enjoy inflicting such pain.%0D\ %0D\ If, on the other hand, you''re looking for a bit of S&M (or is it M&S?) humiliation then may I suggest you join a Glee forum and flame the board with how shite it is. Or join a Gerald Butler forum and keep saying he''s gay - it really winds them up a treat!%0D\ %0D\ Happy to help. ;o))) x%0D\ %0D\ PS. This last sentence of yours, "wish I could kill myself as I''d rather be dead than living this closeted, painful, unfulfilled, useless life I''m living." sounds like something the very overweight usually whale (sic) as they chow down on a box of vanilla donuts. Don''t do this - you will just hate yourself even more.%0D\ %0D\ %0D\ %0D

  Lucy Juicy

• You see - I knew you would be cruel and unkind.%0D\ %0D\ Just goes to prove my point, really.

  r224

• [quote]You see - I knew you would be cruel and unkind. Just goes to prove my point, really.%0D\ %0D\ Don''t take anything Juicy Lucy writes seriously. %0D\ %0D\ I''m not trying to be cruel, but would you care to tell us why you think we would loathe you? What have you done to come to that conclusion? I guess (without knowing anything about you) that you are way too harsh about yourself and that other people don''t see yourself the way you see yourself. %0D

• Thank you, r227.%0D\ %0D\ If you''ve read this thread, you already have a good idea.%0D\ %0D\ I''m middle aged and closeted to my family as I know coming out to them would cause a huge fight. I''m overweight as I use food to numb the pain and to keep myself unattractive. I dress in men''s clothing as I don''t feel comfortable in women''s. I am unkempt. My longish hair is always tied up in a ponytail. I avoid relationships as I don''t feel worthy of anyone else''s attention and certainly not their love. I don''t wear makeup as I think it makes me look like a guy in bad drag. I don''t have any lesbian friends as they frighten me. I''m just a fucking mess and reading these kinds of threads just makes me hate myself more. I know I know - don''t read them. I think I read them just to confirm what a fucking waste of space I am.%0D\ %0D\ I''m sorry. I know that I''m wallowing in self-pity and self-loathing. Nothing any of you say can make me feel better about myself.

  r224

• I hate people who hurt other people in whatever way. I hate people who''d sell their own mother to achieve a goal. I hate people with no morals and no empathy. %0D\ %0D\ From what you wrote at R228, I just feel bad for you. Your life and story is just sad, not loathesome. %0D\ %0D\ And you''d be surprised how many closeted women like you are out there. And how many of them had the courage to come out (partially) later in life. %0D\ %0D\ I''d wish you well, but I have a feeling you wouldn''t want to hear it.

  R227

• I find working in Higher Education is a BIG giveaway (or in some way attached to academia). The liberal atmosphere of universities seems to attract lesbians and bisexuals (more so than gay men).\ \ I was in a conference of about 20 academics the other month. There was approx. 10 women, 3 were gay; including an obligatory, ostensibly butch lesbian.

• Thank you, r227. I really do appreciate your kindness.%0D\ %0D\ I wish you well too.

  r224/226/228

• Yes there are closeted (you forgot repressed) Lesbians. I have a friend who is 45 years old. Here are her symptoms\ \ 1) Pulls credit cards and money out of her front pocket to pay for meals. (biggest give away to me) \ 2) "there''s just no spark"\ 3) is a devout catholic waiting for marriage who won''t even do more then kiss (you are allowed to more then kiss to remain a good catholic\ 4) loves being friends with younger blondes and always gives them gifts\ 5) was a tomboy as a girl and was even sent to a "modeling" school to fem her up (boy will that fuck up your head)\ 5) When I asked her if she saw this male celebrity naked that had just been posted on line she said "ew I''m not looking at that" Really?\ 6) gets very angry at customer service people and goes into full bull dyke mode and her voice goes down 5 octaves.

• r228, lots of women feel exactly the same as you eg. depressed, trapped, ugly, unworthy (whether straight or gay). Try not to lay your problems all that the door of your sexuality.

• You''re right r233. I''m sorry.%0D\ %0D\ I''m also unemployed and have health problems.%0D\ %0D\ I''m a loser in all areas of my life, not just that one.

  r228

• 228, be kinder to yourself. You have done nothing wrong. As one poster pointed out, you have not been immoral or cruel -- except perhaps to yourself. \ \ I was recently in a long down period. Unemployment, booze, loneliness, all of the above. Out of the blue I met a woman who made me feel alive and happy. She isn''t free, but being around her let me know that I can actually be interested in somebody. If not her it will be someone else. I am watching my drinking and my weight toward this goal, determined to love someone and offer her encouragement and affection. \ \ Be open to the possibility of change. A good change. \ \ Peace.

• Thank you r235.%0D\ %0D\ I wish you well for the future.%0D\ %0D\ I''m sorry - I feel as though I''ve derailed this thread!

  r228

• Jeez.... now I know I''ve derailed the thread...

  r228

• Thoughts on appearance from a "frumpy lesbian": %C2%A0I didn't come out until my mid 30's and had been married for 10 years. %C2%A0With the exception of dresses in Sunday mornings - I dress now as I did then. %C2%A0 I have always taken minimal care with my appearance. %C2%A0I was quite fit (until my mid 40s) and now could really stand to lose 20 lbs; I have always worn loose clothing; I wear enough makeup to claim that I wear makeup; I dress at the lower end of professional. %C2%A0At work I blend, but don't stand out as either "nicely dressed" or "poorly dressed". %C2%A0 Weekends are another matter. %C2%A0If I am working in the yard and need to run to run to the garden store, I will go as I am. %C2%A0No makeup, dirty nails, dirty jeans. %C2%A0 I present myself very much as my mother does. Clean, neat, but not "fashionable". %C2%A0Physical appearance is what it is, %C2%A0health is more important than appearance. So - three years ago I developed Ramsey Hunt syndrome, a severe form of Bells Palsy. %C2%A0Basically the right side if my face melted. %C2%A0It was not pretty. Not at all. For the first three weeks my right eye couldn't close all of the way, so I had to wear an eye patch - like a pirate. %C2%A0I bought several vinyl patches and a friend decorated them; one with a peace sign, another with a sunflower, one with an eyeball. When I went back to work, a few days after onset, a coworker who places a very high value on appearance blurted, "I could never leave the house looking like that." Usually this condition lasts 6 - 8 weeks. %C2%A0I am among the small percentage that experiences an incomplete recovery. %C2%A0I don't look anywhere near as bad as I did, but my right eye droops and my face contorts when I try to smile, and I can't really control the right side of my mouth when I kiss my amazing, wonderful partner. Adults are kind and say they "can't tell" I still have problems. %C2%A0 Children are honest and ask what happened to my face. %C2%A0%C2%A0The best comment I ever heard from anyone was a 10 year old boy who said, "This is so cool! %C2%A0You look like Two Face from Batman!" In the first few weeks of my palsy I let it keep me home a few nights, but not since. %C2%A0I have even volunteered for a few public speaking appearances. I don't think I could have gotten through the past three years if I gave a damn what people think about my appearance, if I had spent my life fussing over eyebrows and the occasional zit, or whether my hair was perfect or whether I needed to hilight my hair (which I have done a few times, but don't consider necessary). I can't say that this hasn't changed my life, and I can't say that I don't wince a little when I see a photo where my face is especially contorted, but I can say that I know people whose lives would have been paralyzed by this. %C2%A0I believe that my lifelong attitude about appearance is what helped me get through it with a minimal disruption to my life. Just my thought on my life ....

• Oh, gawd, fraud @ r238 get a fuckin blog. No wonder your husband dumped you!

• And you''d be surprised how many closeted women like you are out there. And how many of them had the courage to come out (partially) [bold]later in life.[/bold] \ \ Translation: \ \ She got fat. \ \ Hubby doesn''t want her.\ \ Thinks she can use lesbians as her back up plan.\ \ Lose 50 pounds and put a smile on your mug and maybe that poor bastard will take you back. Then you won''t have to pretend you''re a lesbian anymore.\ \ [quote]Jeez.... now I know I''ve derailed the thread...\ \ Which was your intention ya manipulative bitch.

• I was NOT being nasty - was just stating an observation re: donuts.%0D\ %0D\ Now just look at this thread and pls remember *I* didn''t derail it!%0D\ %0D\ How come there''s no lesbot posting about how 224 should go do some volunteering....?!?! You women are slacking!%0D\ %0D\ Seriously, you women who''re overweight and depressed so you eat more blah blah (vicious cycle etc.) - just STOP. Just make up your mind that tomorrow is the beginning of the rest of your life and that deliberately comfort eating to make yourselves less attractive is seriously crazy. Fear. Fear of intimacy is stupid; very few people have a perfect body. Want to know how to look great naked? Just switch the fucking lights off! :o)%0D\ %0D\ Chin up cocker. It could be worse. You could be Donald Trump with that flakey weetabix on your bonce.%0D\ %0D\ x%0D\ %0D

  Lucy J.

• [quote]There''s no such thing as a closeted lesbian; women are as a rule braver than men, they''ll always come out no matter what%0D\ %0D\ Actually this is pretty much true at least in the west.%0D\ %0D\ Invariably women are almost always out at some stage. I think perhaps it''s a combination of independence/bravado and less social prejudice, although social prejudice is there. But men, my dog, many men can hide in the closet unto eternity and play the happy family game and also the anti-gay game. %0D\ %0D\ Women almost always get tired of the lies but then women are allowed and generally expected to be more honest.

• It''s because R242 we haven''t got a cock - cocks are seen as threatening whereas two women together are generally just viewed as a turn on rather than a threat.%0D\ %0D\ Oh la la; here comes the plumber! I wonder if he''s got a large enough ratchet to unblock my hole?!?! (sheesh)%0D\ %0D

  Lucy J.

• Alas, the thread is reduced to comments about frumpy, fat, middle-aged, women.

  Ha, the predictability.

• I have been in the closet and lost patience with it. It''s a lousy way to live and not worth the effort and the lies. I feel sorry for people who feel compelled to dwell in such a dark, airless place. \ \ I am a middle-aged lesbian, yes, but relatively attractive. Although I am not a total hottie, I like myself and enjoy having a good time with gay folks, straight folks, and anyone who is fun and intelligent. A good attitude does wonders for your looks.

• R37 here, with an update:\ \ Years later, she spots the other woman whom she HATES HATES HATES! She makes her fiance drive past the house or the apartment of the girl she HATES HATES HATES! Her marriage invariably ends when, during the reception she wants to make the same drive again, so as maybe the girl she HATES HATES HATES will see her wedding dress.

• R61\ \ In my experience as a child I was tomboyish but had a feminine nature and sort of mixed it up, many straight girls are like this that I know of. Once I filled out at 12 years old it started to draw in the sleezy guys in the neighborhood so I began to down play my femininity. It kept the bad guys and later even good ones at arms length and on a subconcious level I felt safe that way.\ \ Once I was in college and out to myself I actual became more feminine feeling more secure in my sexuality. Its a way I enjoyed being and not that I felt pressured that it was a way to attract women.

• "Plays the pronoun game. Falls back on male/female stereotypes/Julia Roberts movie type storyline for why she doesn't have a boyfriend, "I just work so much, it's hard for a guy to try to fit into my business lifestyle" or something they read on the cover of a magazine. They'll tell this same sad tale 13 years down the line." Really? Has anyone ever assumed that certain people are simply not sexual, they don't care about relationships? There are actually men and women, gay and str8, who could care less about sex or having a partner. One of my closest friends, who died at 63 of cancer, told me he stopped having sex and relationships when he he was in 30s. He had a few boyfriends in his youth, he said the drama involved in romantic relationships was too much, that he simply couldn't deal with. Instead he focused on his career and his group of friends. He was a brilliant painter and designer, he had a very full social life and loved his work. He seemed extremely happy For some people, their world doesn't revolve around having a romantic relationship, having children etc. Not every person wants this. I honestly don't understand why anyone who is not involved is deemed to be gay or a lesbian. It's never made sense to me. The daily drama I hear from my str8 female coworkers about their asshole husbands and boyfriends, would put anyone off a relationship. These women work full time jobs, have kids, yet their asshole partners expect them to still be full time housewives and of curse, be ready for sex whenever the guy wants to fuck. These idiot men need maids, not wives or girlfriends! You guys here can make fun of fraus all you want, but you have NO clue what some of their lives are like, especially working class women! You watch too much reality TV about spoiled arrogant NYC rich bitches, that's NOT real life.

• R248 sounds a bit upset.

  Lucy J.

• [quote]All one has to do to reject "femininity" is -- look natural, be yourself, and don''t obsess about your looks -- the same way (straight) men do.%0D\ %0D\ Preach it, syster!

• bump

• ,

• What R16 said. I had a roommate in grad school whose "best friend" would visit every weekend from Vassar. She pulled that "labels" BS all the time.

• I said that same thing when I was in college. (What r16 quoted.)

  Didn%27t%20we%20all%2C%20back%20in%20the%2080s%3F

• >>>but if you're not: Then why not try fucking a woman? A woman can strap it on longer and stronger. R32, you know nothing about female sexuality. Fucking is not the highlight nor even necessary. Sorry to tell you this.

• [quote]There are no real closeted lesbians

  http://www.amazon.com/Lesbian-Nuns-Breaking-Rosemary-Curb/dp/0446326593

• How did the lesbian cane jokes get started?

• I feel like eating some pussy now.

• [quote]First of all, men are bigger, stronger, and MUCH more sexually aggressive than women. What you probably can't appreciate is how intimidating it is to be a young girl and suddenly be subjected to aggressive, unwanted sexual attention from men. How about unwanted aggressed attention from lesbians? Some lesbians use the whole "men are dogs" thing to pick up closeted women. I watched it happen one evening at a party. A woman was talking about her experience with men and the the lesbian was really going in for the kill, damning men with one generalization after another. To my knowledge, men don't indulge in this behavior to get laid.

• [quote]To my knowledge, men don't indulge in this behavior to get laid. The key phrase here is "to your knowledge," because yes, they do.

• Really R260? When was the last time you saw a man coaxing another man into bed by putting down women? Men don't attach gender politics to their seduction routines. That's lesbian territory. Men just want to have it off.

• r246 here, with yet another update -- After the young bride learns that dragging the groom on a stalking expedition of the woman she HATES! HATES! HATES! will lead to an early divorce, she knows that 12 years later, at the birth of her second child (the first might give the game away) it is now safe to suggest that hubby No. 2 take a drive by with her through a neighborhood she insists has architectural merit (where the woman she HATES! HATES! HATES! just happens to live) where she then parades up and down the sidewalk in front of the house owned by the woman she HATES! HATES! HATES! in hope that she will be seen, with her heterosexual husband and the heterosexual fruit of her loins as a lesson to the woman whom she HATES! HATES! HATES!

• when I was in highschool on a school camping trip a girl in my class kept flirting with me and when we were camping in the tent she told me that she liked girls. Well I was completely mortified. At first it seemed like a hot concept since i had recently watched V for vandetta but I was surprised at how forward she was in telliing me while we were in the tent and I was mortified at how strong her emotions were and how aroused her expression was. Well at that point I realized I was most certainly not gay! and did not have any other urge but to get the hell out of the tent! I still flirted with her and I'm afraid I enjoyed flirting but not any further then that because I could never love a women even if she was a really nice person. Nowadays I feel like I have quite the gaydar. But my biggest problem is I still do not have a boyfriend because I am really shy and have hursutism and I do not have the money to spend to do so much hair removal and I do not have the time time to put on so much makeup. when I put on makeup I feel so fake like plastic. I feel like if I had a boyfriend I couldn't make myself like a barbie every day it's just not me. I would spend 24/7 on make up and hairemoval for that... as well as I have a hormone problem that causes acne. But I'm not gay and never will be even if I do find lesbians interesting people.

  hi

• my other problem is I also worry about being accused as gay when I'm not. I also feel like the idea of being a lesbian is normal. - like I understand the way they flirt with eachother because I have flirted . so at the same time even though I'm straight I wouldn't be afraid if I was lesbian but yet I'm not because I would not feel passionately in love with a woman like I would with a man. It's a totally tifferent feeling to me. To me it is a much more natural feeling to be with a man. Another way to recognize a lesbian is the way they walk. If they walk with swag it would bring up my suspicions. lol also if they wear plaid everyday. my momma always rold me to never wear plaid for this reason. don't want to give off lumberjack vibes my mistakr brcause I am certainly not girly enough to pull it off unless I wore a ton of jewellery and makeup with it. Akso my friend dresses very very plain in baggy tshirts but shes not gay she just likes comfortable clothes and is bery stubborn about it because when she was younger she was forced to wear horribly itchy dresses and too tight stockings and things like that

  hi

• Who has let this straight teenage cunt in? Is school out or something?

• One's dead giveaway is another one's non conclusive evidence.

• Reading through this thread makes me glad that "Juicy Lucy" is apparently gone for good.

• My sister is straight, never wears a dress though because she has dreadful legs and is embarrassed by them. Even when she wears a dress it is a long skirt. Lesbians, unless they are really obvious, are much harder to spot than gay men.

  Anonymous

• I am a middle-aged straight women with short fingernails and I don't wear make-up anymore. I wear dresses in the summer because they are more comfortable when it is hot than pants or shorts. I have come to realize that men are too much trouble and sex with them isn't good (meaning no orgasms). So, what's the point in spending all of that money and wearing restrictive clothing and putting toxic chemicals on your face to attract someone that is fat (most straight guys these days are obese), bald, and is intimated by a woman using a vibrator?

• We (HEART!) all genuine 100% bulldozers and diesel-trucks! (It's only fish - aka "str8 females" - that we hate)

  Mrs%20Patrick%20Campbell