let''s be honest.
- I''ve never understood it either. She sounded a little on the slow side. %0D\
Did she use another voice in private?
- I don''t get it either.\
She was a superficial courtesan who didn''t do anything of substance throughout her entire life. At least the First Ladies who''ve followed her (with few exceptions) have done some pretty substantive work on behalf of the international community. All she did was spend her husbands'' money.
- This is why:
- Style is pretty rare, OP. More and more so.
- She had beauty, class, and style.
- so do many people.
- I hope now Rachel Weisz and Darren A (can''t spell his sirname) are divorcing, they will still press on with that Jackie biopic.
- Nothing like asking a question when you already know your answer. No, she won''t be nominated for sainthood soon. %0D\
But the White House isn''t an antiquated hovel because she got the ball-rolling on transforming it into a premier residence. %0D\
Ah, yes, Nancy Reagan, her work for the international community will long be remembered. BTW, she was sucking up to Jackie for many years because she was a Jackie-wannabe.
- R8, Nancy Reagan was included in the qualifier "with few exceptions."\
The White House was never an antiquated hovel...all she did was lean on some wealthy friends to put in a Rose Garden and some drapes that have long since been replaced.
- Most of the young men and women today have zero class, manners, style, or charm.\
The men want to be Puff Daddy or the Situation and the women want to be Paris Hilton or Kim Kardashian.\
About 70% of the current generation is pure trash.
- She did foster an appreciation for culture. \
Not to mention she suffered a personal tragedy that was also an international one, and thus had the public''s sympathy for quite some time.
- Don''t forget, Jackie played an integral part in Bobby Kennedy''s redemption - after Jack''s death, she brought him away from the evil Jehovah and introduced him to Aeschylus - which saved Bobby''s life and gave him a vision for the time he had left.
- She did more than any other First Wife to add mystique, allure and glamour to the White House. For that she is considered a national icon and legend.\
She just had that Old Hollywood brand of style that most people just don''t seem to possess anymore. Many people have tried to emulate her but they simply cannot. She was one of the last of a dying breed of women.
- Maybe the love for Jackie O (not Kennedy, because unlike a lot of you, she got over her White House years fairly quickly) is a generational thing. A lot of older people seem to miss the days when people wore hats to restaurants and gloves while driving. She was certainly beautiful and sophisticated, but her allure was about as meaningful as Kim Kardashian''s. Beauty and elegance do nothing to improve our lives...
- She''s like that Camille Grammer and her "little voice":%0D\
"Who me? I''m not a gold digging cunt. Just because I shit roses doesn''t mean I''m not more special than any other woman alive."
Lady Bird: Too bad the 2nd shooter missed the second mark.
- R2/9, it isn''t an antiquated hovel, though it was heading in that direction, because, among other accomplishments, she got people to return original items back to their original home. She restored a sense of history to the White House. Even if she was a courteson, gold-digger, whatever, she did accomplish something in her term in the White House.%0D\
- [R9] ...Beg pardon, but she did a lot more than "put in a rose garden and some drapes..."
http://www.jfklibrary.org/Historical Resources/JFK in History/The White House Restoration.htm
- [quote]Beauty and elegance do nothing to improve our lives...\
No, but they sometimes help people forget, if only briefly, the misery or banality of their lives. And that''s been the case for a few thousand years.
- If you really believe that, R14, what do you think we should aspire to?
- I dont think she was beautiful, sorry
- Didn''t the Bouviers have money as well?
- Because the entire world saw her splattered with the blood and brains of her murdered husband and how she stoically went on and raised two fine children.\
Let it not be forgot that for one brief shining moment there once was a spot called Camelot.
- r10 marry me.
- She had to have her sunglasses specially made because her eyes were too far apart. It was suspected that she had a mild form of hypertelorism. Look at this photo of her and see what you think.
- Give her a break! Her husband died.
- Because she singlehandedly held the country together with her grief-stricken strength and dignity after that awful day in Dallas.
- What society wife isn''t a "courtesan"?\
Any women who marries for money is a prostitute. \
That doesn''t take away from the glamour of it all, though. It is what it is.
- >>Beauty and elegance do nothing to improve our lives...%0D\
I''d like to slam you, but can''t bring myself to because your soul is so impoverished.%0D
- Not only did she clean up the White House, working with Lady Bird Johnson, she improved the area around it. It was sort of slummy through the 50s.\
After LBJ became President, Lady Bird expanded her work through the "Keep America Beautiful" campaign that removed billboards and planted native wildflowers along the interstates and other major through-ways.\
Now, First Ladies just nag us about things.
- It was thru her efforst that the National Endowments for the Arts and the Humanities were created. She did that. Her focus on haiving artists, poets, musicians, literary figures, painters,etc. invited to the WH not just to perform, but as guests, was historic. %0D
The White House restoration project was historic. There were incredible artifacts and important papers, artwork, furnishings, etc. inappropriately stored and deteriorating, and she corrected that. As well as "hanging new drapes" she made the White House the historic treasure it truly was,inviting people to take tours after that. %0D
She had a true sense of history. JFK's funeral was planned meticulously by her as an historic event. She imbued it with a sense of grandeur and pageantry that not only healed us, and united us, but elevated us. %0D
Too many people are dismissive of grace and beauty, they deride culture and the creative arts as puffery,extravagant and superfluous when in fact, they are part of who we are, and who we hope to be. They nourish our spirits.%0D
It may also interest you to know that President Johnson successfully enlisted her diplomatic skills, in 65-66, in carrying secret messages and engaging in discussions, with leaders in the Far East, during what appeared on the surface to be just goodwill tours and sight-seeing bits. %0D
It was more than seeing the harrowing experience of a woman crawling on the back of a car, trying to recover a piece of her husband's skull, narrowly missing getting shot herself, that makes her "beloved." But that would have been enough.
- R30, she wasn''t trying to retrieve a piece of John''s skull. She was trying to get out of the fucking car and a SS agent had to tell her to get back in her goddamn seat. It''s amazing how some of you feel the need to portray some frivolous cow as a saint.
- I like Lady Bird better, and she got a lot of crap for her beautification projects. The state of Texas looks better with all the wildflowers.%0D\
Her children are also down to earth and gracious.
- I''m not canonizing her, but she''s certainly not a "cow." People can like anyone they want to. People who consider it at all, usually have their favorites. But that doesn''t require a condemnation, or ripping up someone else. it isn''t necessary. My personal favorite''s Eleanor Roosevelt. But there''s something ugly about the need to disparage other people in order to elevate your own point.
- I want to be r30/33 when I grow-up.
- She brought a flair and style to the White House that hadn''t been seen before. She modernized the place, and the look of the first lady. Before her, first ladies common style was Thelma Harper type dresses and plain shoes. Lets not forget Mamie''s plastered bangs and virgin pins. %0D\
Comparisons to Kardashian reek of ignorance. Jackie was always a lady, and I agree, her manners and style have gone out of our culture. She always went the extra mile.
- "She was trying to get out of the fucking car."%0D\
Even if this is true, I don''t understand why that should be viewed as a negative. Someone is firing shots at your car, what the fuck would you do?
- I thought she was trying to help the SS guy on board.
- [quote]It may also interest you to know that President Johnson successfully enlisted her diplomatic skills, in 65-66, in carrying secret messages and engaging in discussions, with leaders in the Far East, during what appeared on the surface to be just goodwill tours and sight-seeing bits.\
Now this I''d like to know more about!
- I am still marveling that someone could actually write that "beauty and elegance do nothing to improve our lives" and mean it. That person is kidding, right?
not sure why some people were born
- She was very gracious and elegant and in my admittedly few conversations with her, she was surprisingly witty and engaging.
- Jackie was raised in a bygone era where all the skills needed to marry "well" were imbued upon her. She was taught about the arts, deportment, poise, languages, clothes and the ability to hold your own in any company. She was taught how to be a remarkable hostess, about food and above all, appropriateness. These traits and others enabled her to reach the great successes that she and her sister did. Very few society women are brought up this way anymore, but those that are shine clearly above the vulgar cattle around them...especially in the U.S.
- +1 with r30, r33,r36.%0D\
And that''s even after I read that "Vanity Fair" cover story of a year ago that laid out with pin-point precision that Jackie, armed with her money and position, was capable of bullying behavior.%0D\
Still, I applaud her for peddling her pussy for all the purchasing power and security it could obtain for her and her children. I''d do likewise if the circumstances and oppurtunity commanded it.%0D\
So spare me the morally outraged twaddle about Jackie O the courtesan. You can attempt to detract her all you want to. When it comes, however, to a living a life that encompassed extraordinary, historic and, yes, iconic circumstances, you can''t take it away from her.
Della, LOVE Jackie O threads.
- What''s more, eat your hearts out, haters.
Della, LOVE that pic.
- R31, I''d like to slap you silly. People like you are the reason that this country will ultimately disintegrate. This woman was first lady of our country, some nut (or nuts) were firing into her car, and her husband had just had the top of his head blown off. I''d like to see how well you''d do in a similar situation.\
Get your head out of your ass and read R30 until you come to your senses.
- Gold-digger??! OP is an idiot! The woman came from money. She had way more than John!\
She was beloved because of her style. She was one of the first glamorous first ladies. She was royalty in a way.
- [italic]Didn''t the Bouviers have money as well?[/italic]\
They were loaded!
- +1 with r44.%0D\
What would you have had her do,r31? Should she have calmly reached into her handbag, pulled out her compact to powder her nose and lightly complain about how her husbands grey matter spattered her face and hair?%0D\
The following rarely happens to mere mortals let alone to a First Lady: You''re sitting next to someone and suddenly thier skull is ripped apart.%0D\
Yeah, like you wouldn''t have panicked. Right.%0D\
- Jackie was quite a cute kid.\
Her family was rich.\
John married her for the money. He was the prostitute. Jackie was well educated, and her family was made up of a bunch of socialites and Wall Street bankers.
- Can one of the kennedy experts explain why she stipulated in her will that some details about JFK couldn''t be divulged until 50 yrs after Caroline died (or something similar)?\
Why not just spill? What could it be? Maybe RFK is her father?
- Within the wealthy US Roman Catholic aristocracy, JFK was the one "marrying up."
- "John married her for the money. He was the prostitute. Jackie was well educated, and her family was made up of a bunch of socialites and Wall Street bankers."%0D\
JFK had political ambitions. He needed somone like Jackie who reeked of breeding.
- I''d like to get in that line to slap silly, R31. Jackie said in an interview soon after the assassination that in that terrible moment she climbed on the back of the limousine to retrieve the piece of her husband''s skull that had been blown off. In her shock she believed that the doctors at the hospital would need it to put his head back together again. Horrifying, poignant and completely understandable when faced with the most harrowing circumstances imaginable. This iconic woman deserves nothing but gratitude, respect and honor for generations to come. As Teddy Kennedy said in his stunningly moving eulogy of her, she graced our history and she graced our lives. Does that hurt, R31?
- There's one more thing I want to mention. I noticed it in my own parents as well. Our education system and our standards. My father only had a high school diploma. He was raised in the Depression, and considered himself lucky to achieve that. %0D
Yet he was the person who taught me about literature, and about classical music. He knew more about the poets, and great classicists that anyone with a basic four year college degree today. %0D
My mother had a full time job before it was fashionable for women to have jobs. She also graduated high school. We were never wealthy. We were "working class." But the standards of excellence and that literate, cultured environment was as important as the air we breathed. %0D
Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis was similarly raised in terms of what was emphasized in schools, whether they were private or public schools.%0D
As a country, our standards of education were much higher, with a real emphasis on the classics and on the arts. Our high schools were much better and the educational environment more rigorous. %0D
Jacqueline was very well educated, way beyond any rich society girl back then. She also insisted on securing a job. These were not typical behaviors for someone from her background. So in her way,shes very much a product of her time and class, but she went way beyond that as well.%0D
- [quote]But the White House isn''t an antiquated hovel because she got the ball-rolling on transforming it into a premier residence. \
Not true. The entire White House had just been gutted to the exterior walls in 1949-52, and completely rebuilt as a brand new facsimile of the original structure. The White House had become unstable, with 150 years of patchwork improvements like indoor plumbing, gas, and electricity. Engineers told the Trumans that "the only thing holding up the second floor is force of habit", and were concerned that an upstairs bathroom could collapse. \
Sadly, the original woodwork and mantels were less expensive to copy and duplicate than restore. Although I''m certain Jackie did restore many historical documents and furnishings, the entire White House reconstruction was barely 8 years old when the Kennedys moved in.
- "Why is Jackie O Beloved?"\
Because she could swallow all the way down to the balls.
- You should all admire her for how she negotiated her way out of the Kennedy family with that psychopathic patriach Joe. She protected her kids to the bitter end.
- Black Jack was Jackie''s father\
Black Jack was much less serene. He was forced to ask for help from his father-in-law. James T. Lee agreed on the condition Black Jack curb his flamboyant lifestyle%E2%80%94Jackie%E2%80%99s father was fatally susceptible to beautiful women and big money, which he spent faster than he earned. It was a great humiliation to move his wife and Jacqueline to a rent-free apartment, provided by his father-in-law, at 740 Park Avenue. By 1935 his net worth had plummeted to $106,444.\
$106.00 in 1935 had the same buying power as $1,708.25 in 2010.\
Annual inflation over this period was 3.78%.
- I agree with R10. Completely. Totally.
- I erred in my math decimal placement in an earlier post.\
Jackie''s father lost a lot of money in the 1930''s. By 1935 he was worth $106,044.00 which is the same as $1,708,962.37 in 2009.
- Its those pillbox hats, that Oleg Cassini style, the sunglasses ... the whole look - like both Hepburns she created an image that is just timeless.%0D\
Then all that going for the money and the courage after the assassination of JFK and how she bore her own final illness ...
- The "courtesan" & "gold-digger" accusations might be directed at her marrying Onassis just 5 years after JFK died.\
Even at the time, no one thought it was a love match -- he was more than 20 years her senior, ugly, & vulgar -- he was not admired or respected or well-liked. It was obvious that she was marrying him for his money, which was politely expressed as "seeking security".\
Ok, fine. But it''s more respectable if a young widow with little kids turns to her wealthy & powerful in-laws when help is needed. In Jackie''s case, the impression given was that she just wanted to shop & the Kennedys wouldn''t indulge her the way Ari would.
- Why did she receive so little from Aristotle Onassis'' will when he died?
- Ted tried to manhandle Cristina out of a bigger settlement (in the car on the way to the funeral) but she and the lawyers gave her the least amount the could. She called Jackie "The Black Widow" and even Ari realized she was a dud soon after the marriage.
- "Ted tried to manhandle Cristina out of a bigger settlement (in the car on the way to the funeral)"%0D\
Those Kennedys - class all the way.
- "Ted tried to manhandle Cristina out of a bigger settlement (in the car on the way to the funeral)"\
Was he driving?
- Amusing in Stephen Fry''s tour of America when he met Oatsie Charles of Newport. (Oatsie gave an interview accompanied by her large glass of red wine.) She was at Jackie''s wedding: ''It was just too funny to look across the aisle and see the Kennedys, all the silk top hats and jewellery.'' \
A cocktail with Jackie would have been interesting. Barbara Bush, not so much.
- OP, if you even have to ask the question, you probably don''t deserve to know the answer.
- I bet Callas wanted to scratch Jackie''s eyes out - literally.
- [quote]I bet Callas wanted to scratch Jackie''s eyes out - literally.\
Until the day after the wedding when Ari returned to her...
- a mystic
- [quote]You should all admire her for how she negotiated her way out of the Kennedy family with that psychopathic patriach Joe. She protected her kids to the bitter end.\
Joe was the Kennedy she was closest. She loved him.
- I think she represented, on some level, our higher nature....culture matters, ideas matter, art matters, education, philosophy, literature, architecture, maturity, family....all matter.%0D\
I find it interesting that it happened in the redneck underbelly of the country. There is a part of this country''s psyche that is very ill, and it is still very much with us. %0D\
She was 34 when JFK was assasinated and, from what I have read, she got the nation through that first aweful weekend.%0D\
If this means nothing to you, when you see the beauty of Grand Central Station, thank Jackie. It was mainly through her efforts that it was saved. I saw a news clip about this effort where she spoke about people needing beauty in their lives, that it raises the spirit.%0D\
In spirit, she was a Greek from the Golden Era, an amazing flowering of humanity that has never been duplicated in over 2,300 years.
- Jackie, her husband and Marilyn were like GODS.
- [quote]Jackie said in an interview soon after the assassination that in that terrible moment she climbed on the back of the limousine to retrieve the piece of her husband''s skull that had been blown off. In her shock she believed that the doctors at the hospital would need it to put his head back together again. Horrifying, poignant and completely understandable when faced with the most harrowing circumstances imaginable.\
Here''s an excerpt from her testimony for the Warren Commission\
Mrs. KENNEDY: You know, then, there were pictures later on of me climbing out the back. But I don''t remember that at all.\
I don''t blame her for trying to get the hell out of there.
- r61, we must have read different sources regarding Ari Onassis.%0D\
It''s true that Kennedy''s brothers disliked Onassis, but so what. From what I hear, they didn''t care for "outsiders" and when you throw in that Onassis was courting thier dead brother''s wife, why should it surprise anybody that they, especially RFK, disliked him?%0D\
Otoh, I''ve read many accounts of Onassis by those who knew him. They seemed to genuinely admire him. In fact, Elizabeth Taylor was one of the few who came to Jackie''s defense when she married him and was quoted as saying, "I think Jackie made an excellent choice. Ari is very smart and lots of un to be around." %0D\
I find it very plausiible that he was charming , worldly, smart, fun loving, and, oh, btw, having nearly a billion dollars didn''t hurt either. I can easily see why Jackie married him.%0D\
And remarrying after five years of being a widow is too soon? Really?%0D\
- Totally disagree, R66. Barbara Bush''s very candid comment about Sarah Palin shows that she is a shrewd, sneaky bitch who would be fun once you got a drink or two in her. I''d never, ever want to cross that woman though.
- I heard that Barbara Bush said, "My husband put a bullet through JFKs head and it is working out well for the country."
- r31 is a foul revisionist who wasn''t alive in 1960.%0D\
Jackie Kennedy was YOUNG, with toddlers. After Mamie and Bess and Eleanor, she simply brightened the scene, ushering in the 60''s with her husband who, yes, ironically, epitomized "vigah". In a word, the First Family of 1960 = youth (finally).%0D\
Jackie was charming (ask DeGaulle), elegant (ask Cassini), cultured (ask Casals), and maternal. %0D\
After the two assassinations, she went for the money totally. But who knows what getting a loved one''s brains all over one does to a mind?%0D\
- I love her reaction in this interview, it''s at 3:15.\
Interviewer: you want to be with him?\
Interviewer: You''re pretty much in love with him, aren''t you?\
Jackie: Oh, no. (pause) I said no didn''t I?
- r61: "marrying Onassis just 5 years after JFK died."%0D\
Yes, it was a shock, as we wanted her to remain the exemplary First Widow. %0D\
But read what you wrote: "just 5 years." JUST??%0D\
Nobody is held to such a standard for mourning.%0D
- Another vote with those who said her dignity and grace held the country together for three days.%0D\
If she had gone screaming and hysterical after the assassination, it wouldn''t have been dignified event it had to be to show us that America and survive anything.%0D\
She did everything right in those few days.%0D\
She also refused her first lady/president''s widow pension or any other government handout. She kept only her franking privilege - free mail for life. Can you imagine any other First Lady turning down free money after leaving the White House? You know we''re still paying for those classless do nothings....we paid Bess Truman until the day she died!%0D\
And look at the rest of the Kennedy kids....Jackie raised two fairly stable - if not perfect - kids under trying circumstances.%0D\
And who can blame her for wanting to get them out of the country while they were growing up. They were prime targets for any crazy person with a gun.
- The media is male.\
Jackie ho is a caricature of a docile puppet wife who did nothing but wear dresses.\
The ultimate Stepford Wife.
- Because she died to redeem mankind.
- She represented everything that people used to aspire to, such as education, gentility, politeness, courage, and discretion. Now that this country makes someone like Palin a national figure, the nostalgia for her polar opposite will continue to flourish.
- Fairly eloquent, r84, but don''t see Jackie''s image being lent to any anti-smoking campaigns anytime soon.
eight pack of salem a day!
- "You know we''re still paying for those classless do nothings....we paid Bess Truman until the day she died!"\
First of all, the Trumans were incredibly poor. Harry was a haberdasher before he became president. The relative poverty they lived in after they left the White House (this was before the days of expensive speaking engagements) was a national embarrassment, and was responsible for instituting the practice of paying money to former presidents and First Ladies after their time in office.\
Second, Jackie had money from her family and her infamous payout of a million dollars (which was a fortune in the 50s) from Joseph P. Kennedy, Sr for staying married to JFK when she discovered his philandering and wanted to leave him. She stayed married to him for hard cash. That''s hardly what I''d call "classy" behavior--it''s more like prostitution. \
But what would you know about class? You''re a callow boor for begrudging poor Bess Truman the money to live in her family home in Independence, MO.
- [quote]She also refused her first lady/president''s widow pension or any other government handout. She kept only her franking privilege - free mail for life. Can you imagine any other First Lady turning down free money after leaving the White House? You know we''re still paying for those classless do nothings....we paid Bess Truman until the day she died!\
She didn''t turn down anything. After her marriage to Onassis,she lost her pension, Secret Service protection and her Franking Privilege.
- It was another time--and younger people lack any sense of context. After the 50's, the Kennedys were like a blast of fresh air. It was the New Frontier, and of course, today one can be smug and cynical about it. After all, one of the benefits of youth is that they lack the maturity to figure out how and why. That is something that comes with age. The benefit of lacking such maturity is that you think in the present and look to the future. The disadvantage is that you fail to understand how both depend on the past.%0D
She belongs to another era: we were stronger, more confident, and determined about our role in history. I remember my father telling me once that he got a raise in 1961 and was making 8,000 a year. With the money my mother earned--6,000--it was as if we were on easy street. The dollar was strong, and the future unlimited.%0D
Of course, it was not quite like what the myth represented, but I doubt my parents were looking beyond the surface. As John Lennon once shrewdly observed, life in reruns is always more fun than life in prime time.
- Were you following the story when she married Onassis, R75 & R80? Maybe you were but recall the mood of the country differently than I do.\
What I saw & heard was disappointment that she was marrying a rich old vulgarian who was beneath her. Had she chosen someone more suitable, her remarriage probably would not have been criticized as being too soon.\
Trouble was, the public had set her up on a pedestal as soon as she became First Lady, & she grew more revered as she suffered tragedies -- first the son who died when he was 2 days old, then the assassination later that year. She was considered a tragic heroine with great dignity until she married Onassis, which was a huge letdown to those who expected better from her. Unfair & spiteful, but that was the reaction I observed.
- She always sounded like she was on valium. I agree with OP, there was nothing particularly noteworthy about her.
- [quote]She belongs to another era: we were stronger, more confident, and determined about our role in history. \
Hey Mary, Betty Draper just called: she''d like her rose-colored glasses back.
- She is beloved because she sold herself to some old Greek...so she could leave her children a little money. Good for her.
- [quote]Another vote with those who said her dignity and grace held the country together for three days.\
WTF does that even mean?\
Do you really mean to say that if she had not been there the country would have fallen apart, but somehow her dark glasses and widow''s veil and insisting John Jr. salute his father''s casket somehow stopped people from rioting in the streets and burning down the White House?
- Hell, that''s nothing - Diana held her country together for a whole WEEK - and all she had to do was lie on her back!
- 91: Take off your blinders dear. No one in 1963 would have thought that we would end up where we did--Vietnam, race riots, Watergate. That is why the Camelot myth has persisted. It WAS a different time. %0D\
Was it wrong for Jackie to marry Ari? Who cares? I''ve always been bewildered why if a woman does what Jackie did she''s a hoe, but if a man is driven by power and ambition, well, it''s different.%0D\
Such a double standard.
- Sorry but to be a gold digger don''t you have to be somewhat deprived of luxury to begin with.
- I respect that she remained silent and private. Today there would be several tell-all autobiographies, etc.\
She was... Zhack-LEEN.
- Marry me, r97. Adopt my children, you tycoon!!!!
- I think I'll agree with R61 on the issue of Aristotle Onassis. I base my opinion on JFK's own assessment of Onassis. Kennedy loathed Onassis, saying he was so vulgar and uncouth that he picked his nose in public.
Jackie Kennedy Onassis was a well-known shopaholic, an expensive woman to keep. I remember an article after she married Onassis where a journalist went on a shopping expedition with her. At one point she bought a dozen of a shirt she liked, and she also bought several items in every available color. It's no wonder so many of her clothes ended up in thrift or consignment shops. JFK and she battled about her spending habits; he was appalled at how much she spent on clothes. I doubt Onassis cared that much.
Elizabeth Taylor probably knew better than anybody the reason for Jackie Kennedy's marriage to Onassis -- it made good sense from a business standpoint. One story that came out after Michael Jackson's death is still fresh in my mind. It said that he was required to bring diamond baubles to Taylor if he wanted to visit. I think Taylor knows quite a lot about financial survival and parting rich men from their money.
- Jackie O was more worried about saving Grand Central Station than the homeless people living in it.
- Kennedy had not left her much money, she absolutely had to be a gold digger. She used what she had to get what she needed, I always admire that in a woman...or a man.
- To answer an earlier post, the nation was traumatized by JFK''s assassination. Jackie''s comportment while leading the country in its grieving was the singular reason America''s spirit did not break. So no, she didn''t literally stop riots in the streets but she impacted on a completely other level - she saved the nation''s soul.
- r88, your dad''s 1961 income info:\
$8,000.00 in 1961 had the same buying power as $57,972.89 in 2010.\
Annual inflation over this period was 4.12%.
- Am I the only one who thinks she kind of ugly?%0D\
She reminds me of a Bratz doll.
- r104, no honey, I don''t think she was ugly, but no I don''t think she was as fabulous as everone is posting.
- For those of you who can't get your heads around the whole thing about how she held us together during the post-Assassination events, let me put it this way. She set a standard of behavior and decorum and dignity that served as a model for us and imprinted itself on our national identity. %0D
In the months following the assassination, she drank heavily, daily. I'd say for about 18 months she was a drunk, pretty much, and subsisted on booze and pills. People close to her were very worried. This is when she and Bobby became..."close." %0D
She'd also have former aides to JFK over to talk to the kids about their father, but that came later, about two or three years down the road, as they got older. She wanted them to have some sense of their father as a person.%0D
Once she got out of Washington, D.C. and made the decision to move to NYC she began to find her footing again. She told people there was no way she wanted to be some living memorial to JFK, used for political purposes and trotted out to commemorate airports and anniversaries. She was desperate to get her life back together.%0D
I know my mother was furious with her for marrying "that foreigner" and going to live in Greece. She was Ari's trophy wife. Ari had shady business deals and was too cozy with the Russians for Bobby's liking. He and JFK didn't like Ari. %0D
JFK was furious when Lee invited her, at Ari's behest, to come for a vacation on his yacht shortly after she lost baby Patrick. She went and there was instant chemistry between her and Ari. Lee was really pissed off. She always felt Jackie took Ari away from her. Which was B.S. He never had any interest in Lee, only in Jackie. (Plus Lee reportedly slept with JFK!)
- "She was considered a tragic heroine with great dignity until she married Onassis, which was a huge letdown to those who expected better from her."%0D\
One newspaper (NY Post?) had a HUGE headline that read: "JACKIE, HOW COULD YOU?" It''s really shocking that the country felt it had such a claim on her, and that she owed a responsibility to be a professional widow or national symbol of something.
- [quote]For those of you who can't get your heads around the whole thing about how she held us together during the post-Assassination events, let me put it this way. She set a standard of behavior and decorum and dignity that served as a model for us and imprinted itself on our national identity.
Oh for fuck's sake. Do you think you were the only one who was alive then? I was too, and I think you sound like a hysterical queen playing make-believe by indulging in Ted Sorensen's and William Manchester's MARY!-est fantasies.
The Kennedys had a lot of glamor and it was a big deal when he was shot and she handled it with a lot of grace and panache. But she absolutely did not "hold us together"--that's a bunch of rosy-colored fantasist bullshit.
Kennedy was intelligent and well spoken, but he was a ruthless Cold War hawk who exploited women and who probably did not even legitimately win the 1960 election; Jackie was smart and glamorous, but she was also a pretty jaded and greedy lady who lived off rich men her entire life.
To pretend they were saints and that the country might have flown apart if she did not have a big impressive funeral is bullshit. No one except old ladies--and deeply impressionable young queens in their elementary school years--believed that sugary propaganda back in 1963.
- She didn''t owe anything to the country that saw her husband gunned down and didn''t even ask questions or demand real answers. I would feel pretty put out as well. Then after that Americans considered Jackie and her children fair game for constant press intrusion and lapped it up. \
She took on the first front of extreme paparazzi as we know it today. And she did it with class.
- She wanted secuity and protection, Onassis wanted to prove he could marry JFK''s widow, an icon at the time.%0D\
He was good to her kids, too. Once Caroline talked about a pony she wanted, Onassis said, "Buy the horse, and it''s mother, father and brother".%0D\
My mother thought her voice was ridiculous, too.%0D\
Joe Kennedy probably wanted her for JFK as Joe wanted JFK in the White House and Jackie was the perfect foil.
- JBKO had met Onassis through her sister Lee and spent six weeks in mid 1963 on Ari''s yaacht as she recovered from the still birth of her baby, Patrick. She had just returned home in time to help JFK on his trip to Texas, where it was hoped her presence would make the people there less hostile.\
After the assassination, Ari provided her with a lot of emotional support (he came for the funeral and stayed in the White House). Most forget that her decision to marry him came after RFK''s assassination -- she feared she or her kids would be next -- and she wanted out of the US. He had a private island and lots of money for armed security but it was clear to both of them after the marriage they should not have wed.\
I suspect she didn''t know what would happen after that mistake, so she took to shopping as a way to stockpile money. After her sprees, she''d give the stuff to her friends to place in consignment shops and then stockpile the cash she made from that.
- She did not spend six weeks on Ari''s yacht at that time. It was more like two weeks. It was regarded as unseemly especially in light of the fact she''d just lost her baby, etc. The story they put out is that she was chaperoning Lee.%0D\
She and JFK were at a crossroads. When she returned they were closer than ever, and really sort of fell in love all over again. He wept when he buried Patrick. She could not attend her own baby''s funeral being still in hospital. So going off on the billionaire''s yacht was definitely not a good PR move and she was told as much.
- I don''t begrudge Bess her money - but she was a no class do nothing. That I stand by.%0D\
And check again - she had her franking privilege until she died - and she NEVER took her pension. Never. %0D\
Stop reading Kitty Kelly bios.
- [quote]To pretend they were saints and that the country might have flown apart if she did not have a big impressive funeral is bullshit. No one except old ladies--and deeply impressionable young queens in their elementary school years--believed that sugary propaganda back in 1963.\
Very poor people & Catholics tended to almost worship the Kennedys. Shortly after his election, I visited a Chicano home where a magazine cover picture of JFK & Jackie was hung on the living room wall right next to a picture of Jesus, both in cheap black plastic frames. When the assassination was announced at my ghetto school & we were sent home early, the sidewalks were crowded with knots of sobbing little girls & the boys ran home instead of hanging around the burger place across the street.\
My own family was white Republican protestants & didn''t adore the Kennedys, but even they were shocked by the assassination & grieved for the young widow & 2 little children.
- Death, taxes and Datalounge threads disparaging Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis.
- "She did more than any other First Wife to add mystique, allure and glamour to the White House. For that she is considered a national icon and legend."%0D\
Oh, please! She was a SNOT, that''s all. If you notice, all she did while in the White House was redecorate it; she considered herself a patron of the arts and invited famous composers and artists to the White House. But she never did anything for PEOPLE. You''ll never see any pictures of Jackie Kennedy visiting those less fortunate, never see pictures of her in the inner cities or rural areas. She despised all those icky poor people. She was "above" them. Like I said, she was a snot, and an exceptionally materialistic one. %0D
- For R116:
- And again:
- Apparently, Ari always enjoyed a phone conversation with Big Edie Beale.
- She was a horrible person and a rip-off artist supreme. At least she did not get to enjoy her ill gotten gains for all that long.
Mrs Patrick Campbell
- Jackie remained friendly with Christina Onassis until her death, so obviously Christina didn''t harbor a grudge. Or the stories were all bullshit.\
And Jackie supposedly received $26 million after Ari''s death, which was a pittance compared to the amount of his estate, so I can''t imagine Christina minding that much.
- After she received her $25 million or so from Ari''s estate she hooked up with that rich Jewish financier and he grew it to $200 million. It is who you know and who you blow.
- R122 Maurice Tempelsman was an longtime supporter of JFK -- previous to the presidential election.\
And he was good at investing.
- I''m sorry, but Mrs. Patrick Campbell never ceases to amuse me.
- [quote]And check again - she had her franking privilege until she died - and she NEVER took her pension. Never.\
- Because she was flawless! I met her several times in the ''80''s. I have never met someone with so much charisma and X factor. She was beautiful, well-spoken and kind. S
- Christian HATED Jackie. She gave her 26 million dollar settlement just to get rid of her. Supposedly after the settlement was reached she told Jackie "I hope I never have to lay eyes on you again."
- R127, that comment on behalf of Christina is hearsay, but I don''t doubt that it''s true. I almost did a spit take when someone in this thread claimed that Christina and Jackie grew closer as time went on--Christina hated Jackie with a passion.
- r108, if you really WERE alive (and more than an infant) in 1960-63, then you know full well that NONE of what you posted was neither known by the general public, nor predicted.
- Look at the look on Jackie''s face at the pic at R118! She looks like she''s going to throw up! I guess being among all those unattractive poor children turned her stomach. And look at the kid''s faces; they look they are mad as hell. Shouldn''t a visit from the First Lady have brought a smile to their faces?%0D\
I''m sure Jackie was required (she sure as hell didn''t do of her own free will) to associate with the "little people" from time to time; as a politician''s wife it was part of the package. But you can bet your ass she never liked doing it.
- Baby Patrick wasn''t stillborn; he died at two days.%0D
- [quote]And check again - she had her franking privilege until she died - and she NEVER took her pension. Never.
- FYI Jackie didn''t get any real money from her family; the Bouviers were upper-class but didn''t have a massive family fortue. Her father blew through his money, and after that her mother married the wealthy Hugh Auchinsloss, but he didn''t give his stepdaughters fortunes of their own. I think her father left her about $10,000, which wasn''t enough to live on, especially someone with expensive tastes. %0D\
The Bouvier girls were very much expected to marry money, that''s what their mother did (twice), and their expensive educations were focused on the accomplishments of an upper-class wife. Jackie''s cousin Edie Bouvier was the one girl in the family who failed to land a rich husband or a fabulous career, look what happened to her.%0D\
So when give the choice between trying to support herself or marrying money, Jackie married Kennedy. There may have been some love when the marriage began, but really, it was a marriage of convenience for both.
- Ari's cronies in the shipping business, and the airline, the guys who managed things day to day, really were very loyal to him. At some point, he began to complain about Jackie and all the $$$ she spent. She spent millions redecorating the house on Skorpios, including the gardens, etc. %0D
At first he indulged her, but at a certain point he really had enough. By the end, she was mostly living in NYC,and he in Paris, and whenever he'd indicate he was coming in, she'd tell him he couldn't stay at the apartment because work was beng done. %0D
He fell apart when his son Alexander was killed in a plane crash. It was something he never recovered from. Christina was furious and hurt because she felt Jackie was unsympathetic and cold to her father when he experienced this tragedy. %0D
Christina's hatred of Jackie was a lifelong thing. She was willing to pay whatever it took to get rid of her for good. It was Christina's advisors who played hardball. %0D
Teddy threatened to expose Ari's infidelities, etc. and make life difficult for them vis a vis foreign trade issues, but they countered with some incredibly unflattering info about Jackie and her behavior toward Ari when he was going in and out of the hospital. The Greeks used to say of him, "He died from the inside out."
- I love that in this debate over the high road in the Kennedy/Onassis relationship, some people are using the Onassis clan as the standards of moral authority: If they hated Jackie, she must have been horrible. In fact, they were ruthless, morally bankrupt thieves. Jackie was no saint, but I''d side with her if give the chance.
- Sorry, Miss r103, but the correct figure is about $72,000, since the dollar has inflated at least nune times since 1961.\
The true inflatia figure (as opposed to the government figure) is over 7%/year.
Mrs Patrick Campbell (protects herself from inflatia)
- I never used the Onassis clan as "standards of moral authority." I''ve merely pointed out what I''ve read about the relationship. His only son died in a plane crash. That''s fact. He was distraught and never got over it. That has been well reported.%0D\
His daughter was very vocal about the "Black widow." She felt Jackie brought a curse with her.%0D\
Ari went from indulging Jackie''s extravagance to arguing with her. Their arguments were out in the open. Not what she was used to at all. In fact, he ws preparing to divorce her when his health failed him. He even went to New York and met Maria Callas. There are photos.
- If Christina hated jackie so much, why did she visit her in New York after her father died and bring her various boyfriends for Jackie to meet? This has been documented in various books about the two of them as well.
- From what I understood about that, r138, she did that to impress the boyfriends. She was friendly with JFK Jr., however.%0D\
Say what you want about her, she did a good job raising her kids in spite of the intrusions of the press and the Kennedys.%0D\
- R135 = rare voice of reason.%0D\
- [quote]His daughter was very vocal about the "Black widow." She felt Jackie brought a curse with her%0D\
And she and her brother didn''t like Maria Callas, either.
- [quote]Most of the young men and women today have zero class, manners, style, or charm. The men want to be Puff Daddy or the Situation and the women want to be Paris Hilton or Kim Kardashian. About 70% of the current generation is pure trash.\
So true, R10. Recently on an episode of the Apprentice, all of these contestants were designing a display for Kim Kardashian''s perfume, and all of them went on and on about making is very classy and sophisticated like Kim. All I could think was "are you fucking kidding me?". Here is a woman best known for making a sex tape, and we''re labeling her "classy"? Dear God.
- She had a lovely way of making her voice sound velvet, like Marilyn. They were sisters under the skin.
- Bitch decorated her own home but obviously charity doesn''t begin at home.
Edith & Little Eadie
- "Because the entire world saw her splattered with the blood and brains of her murdered husband and how she stoically went on and raised two fine children."\
I don''t know whose two children you refer to, but Jackie raised one gorgeous but dumb as a box of hair boy and one girl who can''t even speak without inserting "ya know" twenty times into the conversation.
- JFK Jr was not dumb as a box of hair. He was thoughtful, well-mannered and probably smarter than you. Caroline has written a good book or two and seems to spend a fair amount of time on various charity activities. She''s definitely not Paris Hilton.
- Except about money, Jackie was reasonable.
A good trait
- I will forever be thankful for what she did for arts and culture, restoring the White House, and using her celebrity status to help save Grand Central. \
People on DL will always tear people down, but nothing you can say will take away her accomplishments.
- I thought it was a well-known fact that Jackie and Onassis had a contract marriage, stipulating everything from how long it would last, what her payout would be, how often she was required to have sex with him, which, IIRC, was something like once a year. Clearly not a love match. Supposedly, he hoped to gain an aura of "legitimacy" through his association with her. She was in it for the cash and security.
- [quote]Isn''t she just a stylish gold-digger?\
- I just read Jackie''s NYC apartment was paid for by Bunny Mellon, RFK, Andre Mayer, and Onassis.\
For a woman who isn''t beautiful I appreciate her ability to get people to buy things for her.
- Why was Jackie beloved? Because she couls suck a gold ball through a garden hose.
the ghost of RFK
- "She just had that Old Hollywood brand of style."\
She had nothing of the sort or she would have been wearing yokum hand-me-downs. She possessed International style. Plain and simple! [pardon the pun].
- It''s amazing people still believe she was deeply in love with JFK. It was a business arrangement.
- Jackie was the best. She knew how to be a wife. She was a lady and did what proper ladies were supposed to do; turn a blind eye to their husbands doing what men were supposed to do, fuck and have fun. She didn''t need anything more than to just be JFK''s wife. She got it.
- Didn''t she start fucking Onassis in that time after the baby died, before JFK''s assassination?
- Reading through this old thread.
Someone wrote that "the Bouviers were loaded", "John married her for the money"
Jackie didn't really have money. Although the Bouvier seemed to be very wealthy, Black Jack was greatly in debt because of some very bad investments. Black Jack was basically Joe Kennedy (infidelities) without any business sense, he spent much more money than he made. This is one of the reasons Janet divorced him and married Hugh Auchincloss. In addition to that, Jackie had no inheritence from her step father.
Jackie was engaged to John Husted in December 1951, it had been announced in the New York Times on January 21, 1952. He was an attractive, tall Yale man, but when it turned out he was not the beneficiary of great wealth, Jackie's affections began to cool. Husted was to say later that Jackie's mother checked into his wages and finding as a stockbroker he was making $17,000/yr., he did not make enough money for Jackie and Janet. The engagement was called off.
She married JFK for money not love.
When one of JFK's ushers danced with Jackie and asked her when did you fall in love with Jack? She replied, "How do you know I'm in love with him?"
And there's this interview, here at 3:15.
She just can't get herself to say she loves Jack.
Interviewer: You want to be with him?
Interviewer: You're pretty much in love with him, aren't you?
Jackie:(averts her eyes, laughs) Oh, no. (pause) I said, "no", didn't I?
Off Camera: Yes you did. Do you want to do it again?
Interviewer: I was hoping you wouldn't say anything cause your reaction was wonderful... You are pretty much in love with him, aren't you?
Jackie: (pause) I suppose so. (pause) I've ruined the interview haven't I?
I also think she only married Onassis for money, not security for her kids.
After RFK's funeral Jackie said, 'I hate this country, I despise America and I don't want my children to live here any more. If they're killing Kennedys, my kids are number one targets. I want to get out.'
But Caroline and JFK Jr stayed in America, going to school in NY. and continued to have secret service protection.
- Did I read on DL, or was it just some delirium, that Jackie was actually in love with RFK?
- [quote]Jackie was actually in love with RFK?\
Wasn''t there a book about that? I don''t blame her; he was sexy.
- She was no Jill Zarin!
- [quote]I thought she was trying to help the SS guy on board.\
If you watch the Zapruder film closely, you will notice that Mrs. Kennedy did not leave her seat and climb onto the trunk until after the Secret Service agent attempted to climb onto the car. \
At 59 seconds into the film, the secret service agent''s hands first appeared on the rear of the car while Mrs Kennedy was still seated. Then Mrs Kennedy climbed onto the trunk and moved toward him to help him into the car. \
So yes, it''s obvious she was helping him. \
During her testimony to the Warren Commission, Mrs. Kennedy reported she could not recall climbing onto the trunk.
- I always just assumed she freaked out and was dazedly trying to get her husband''s brains that had fallen out. Really.
- She was more of a Jill Rappaport.
- "JFK Jr was not dumb as a box of hair. He was thoughtful, well-mannered and probably smarter than you."\
I got into Harvard with no family connections (he had to go to Brown because he couldn''t make it into Harvard, even though the street next to Harvard Yard is named after his father), and I also passed the NY bar exam the first time around.\
I agree: he was indeed as dumb as a box of hair.
- Yes, but what it comes down to is that you turned out "bitchy" and he wasn''t.
- [quote]Yes, but what it comes down to is that you turned out "bitchy" and he wasn''t.\
No, what really counts is I''m still alive, and he isn''t.
Plus: You say "bitchy" like it''s a bad thing!
- Living like as a bitch does NOT count more than being dead. Just saying.
- Jackie spent the two years after the assasination drunk every night. After the kids were put to bed, Jackie would drink until she passed out. She finally pulled herself together after she moved to NY.
- r155 likes Jackie because she knew her place as a woman.
- [quote]So yes, it''s obvious she was helping him\
That''s what you''re assuming. Maybe she was moving toward him so he could help her off the car. I don''t blame her; that bullet came fucking close to her head.\
At 59 seconds it looks like she''s already starting to push JFK''s body aside.
- R168, tell us more about drunken Jackie.
- People like R162 probably remember the 60s as a time of racial harmony, world peace and world peace.\
Sorry to ruin the illusion, but it''s pretty obvious that Jackie was TRYING TO GET THE FUCK OUT OF THE CAR. That doesn''t diminish the love she had for her husband, but it was clear her ass wasn''t trying to get shot!
- she was a very intelligent woman who didn''t broadcast herself; rather, through her acts, she exhibited them\
she was raised in a world which no longer exists. She had the appearance of wealth growing up - her grandfather built 740 Park Ave - where they lived for a time, but her fathers drinking and gambling left them without much money, but with an image to uphold\
extended family members had money. She used to summer not at Grey Gardens, but with one set of grandparents who had a magnificent house called Lesange or something - and her step-father owned Hammersmith Farm so her mother - who by all accounts was a vicious bitch - followed the advice she gave her daughters: marry money\
Se learned from her mother, as most women in that class and time period to secure your future by marrying well\
otherwise, she was well-educated, spoke several languages and was very crafty
- r167, you''re grasping at straws: plus you''ve proven you''re a bitch yourself.
- I''ve never heard anything good about Jackie''s mother, Janet. By all accounts she was a first-class bitch.
- [quote]No, what really counts is I''m still alive, and he isn''t.\
Plus, you didn''t kill yourself and two innocent people due to ineptness.
- I believe that old rumour that Jackie had an affair with that rich Agnelli man and wound up knocked up and then gave birth to JFK Jr. John Jr. looked so much like the Agnelli man.
- I always asking myself the same question about John.
- You had to be there. She was perfect for the zeitgeist of the early 60s. She exuded gentility, which was highly valued then.%0D\
Both of her children turned out fantastically smart and well-adjusted, which was an incredible feat considering how EVERYONE wanted to get at those kids then... but Jackie made it her raison d''etre to let him grow up unspoiled and protected from the throngs that constantly wanted at them. She always thought first of what would help her protect her children.
- I don''t doubt Jackie her own affairs, but wouldn''t JFK Jr have been conceived in 1960 while Jackie was campaigning with JFK?\
I don''t imagine Agnelli came to Wisconsin.\
In 1962 she was causing a lot of bad press when photos of her trip to Italy were published in the papers. JFK sent a cable, ''A little more Caroline and less Agnelli.''
- [quote]Both of her children turned out fantastically smart and well-adjusted\
Er, no. I thought we had established that.\
John was an underachieving manwhore who accidentally killed himself, his wife, and his sister-in-law through his sheer ineptitude and arrogance. He was neither "fantastically smart" (!!!) nor well-adjusted.
- John would have gone to become the greatestl looking\
President we have ever had.
- Wow R181, you know too much!%0D\
But you are wrong, both John Jr. & Caroline came out very well-adjusted, kind, and intelligent. Like their mother.%0D\
Of course "chi male fa, male aspetti."
- I''ve heard JFK Jr was kind and really down-to-earth, but Caroline, like her mother, is a snob.\
I think John''s good qualities were nature, not nurture.
- [quote]But you are wrong, both John Jr. & Caroline came out very well-adjusted, kind, and intelligent. Like their mother.\
Well, since you clearly knew them so intimately, I suppose we can all take your word on that.
- I want some proof JFK Jr. was "fantastically smart." \
Such was not by any means his reputation, either publicly or privately. He was thought to be a weak student and a dilettante.
- [quote]Beauty and elegance do nothing to improve our lives...\
R14 ''s Gay Card is hereby permanently revoked.
- John John was a silly socialite like his father, who never got serious, unlike his father.
- It wasn''t Ari or Cristina that limited Jackie''s inheritance, for Greek law states that only Greeks can inherit property and vast amounts of money.
- JFK JR was very close to being the Democratic nominee for President in 2000.\
He would have carried nearly every state in the general election.
- [quote]JFK JR was very close to being the Democratic nominee for President in 2000.\
- "JFK JR was very close to being the Democratic nominee for President in 2000."\
That would have been quite remarkable, seeing as he had never held any elective or military U.S. office whatsoever in his entire life.\
But I love that you somehow believe this.
- Carolyn Bessette Kennedy would have made a supremely elegant First Lady.
- What are R190 and R193 smoking????
well, it is Friday night
- No one wore a pink suit with blood stains the way she did
- She acquired and edited POETRY for a major publishing house for the last decades of her life. You can say what you like about the rest of it, but she wasn''t lazy or venal or superficial in this role. I know that poetry gets dismissed as pretentious and fem even here, but the ability to read and appreciate poetry is what makes this life worth living. By attaching her name to the books she edited, she sold a lot of verse, and that''s one of the best uses of celebrity I''ve ever witnessed.
- More than poetry, R196 -- fiction, biographies and photography books as well.\
When MJ decided his "bio" was to be a picture book and not the prose tome she thought she''d bought, JBKO flew out to LA to have little chat with Michael.\
He was so scared of her, he hid upstairs and let his collaborator take the heat, appearing only when she was about to leave, to finally say hello.
- Why did the press give her a pass when she was having sex with married men?\
Maurice Tempelsman left his wife, Lilly, for Jackie.\
Ros Gilpatrick had been Jackie''s constant companion in the summer of 1968. Gilpatrick''s wife filed for divorce and insinuated in an interview with the Chicago Daily News that her husband''s relationship with Jackie had been a reason in the breakup of the Gilpatricks'' marriage.\
Secret Service agent Clint Hill.
- gold-diggers are usually people not to the metal born.
- [quote]She exuded gentility, which was highly valued then%0D\
Imagine a leading public figure who was both glamorous and remote, who didn''t push herself into the spotlight, give interviews, make a sex tape...%0D\
- She was a smoker and I think her face aged a bit poorly because of it.%0D\
She died a very early death from cancer. %0D\
Probably from smoking or from living in New York City for decades breathing in the tiny carcinogenic air pollution particles which are thick in NYC.%0D\
I know she died from lymphoma (or something similar) but all types of cancer are caused from smoking and air pollution of large cities.%0D\
She died in her 60''s - way too young.
- Jerry Torre, the Marble Faun of Grey Gardens fame, said he took Jackie Kennedy to a gay nightclub and they had a grand old time.
- Did Clint Hill have sex with Jackie, as per r198?
- "Jerry Torre, the Marble Faun of Grey Gardens fame, said he took Jackie Kennedy to a gay nightclub and they had a grand old time."\
I don''t think that''s likely.
- One story about Jackie is that she would go to a small movie theater at Cape Cod alone. She would sit in the back of the theater and when she left, there would be six empty Bartels and James wine cooler bottles neatly placed in a row on the seat beside her. What a lush.
- Drinking wine coolers in a movie theater?%0D\
She must have had a bladder like a camel.
- One story about Jackie is that she liked to go to Myrtle Beach with a biker gang, check into a cheap motel room, and order pizza and drink Singapore Slings. The other guests frequently complained that she would wake them up at dawn singing old Mitch Ryder songs in the parking lot.
see how easy it is to make crap up on the internet?
- Intelligent, sophisticated, and someone who lived her life on her terms as much as possible. Of course the freepers hate her (nothing brings out the trolls like mention of the Kennedys, lol). Her children turned out well and she held the nation together during the trauma of her husband''s death.%0D\
Of course, the freepers here don''t know history, so why bother talking about that day?
- Recent pic of Jackie''s sister Lee Radziwill, still drinking and smoking at 78. Atta girl!
- Traditionally beautiful NO. Attractive YES, with style & class in an understated,old moneyed way.....very rare today. I''m a firm believer in LESS IS MORE.
- Best pix of her ever was Ron Gallela''s where she''s walking out out of her building, wearing jeans and a very simple sweater, with the sleeves pushed up, and her hair''s being wind blown. She could be sexy in a long sleeved turtleneck. She didn''t need to have a v-neck top cut down to her crotch. You hear me J LO & KUNT KARDASHIAN?
- Jackie was in a different universe than what passes for "socialites" today.
- The hair dye didn''t help either. The dark dyes that she used for a long time are known to cause non-Hodgkins lymphoma.
- That surprises me, R205. She didn''t like the cheap stuff.
- How do you know that, R164? My understanding was that he didn''t want to go to Harvard. He was being pushed to follow in his father''s footsteps and he didn''t want to do it. Also, maybe you made it on the merits, maybe not. There are other ways to get into Harvard besides family connections.\
Finally, the bar exam isn''t an IQ test. My understanding is that he really did not want to practice law. That was his mother''s idea. My guess is that when she insisted that he get serious, he did.
Paris Hilton is dumb as a box of hair.
- [quote]My understanding was that he didn''t want to go to Harvard. He was being pushed to follow in his father''s footsteps and he didn''t want to do it. \
Interesting. JFK also didn''t want to go to Harvard because his father- and brother- went there. He started his college years at Princeton, but had to leave do to illness.
- [quote]Did Clint Hill have sex with Jackie, as per [R198]?\
I read that and was also skeptical. Then I read in The Kennedy Detail how close Clint and Jackie became. Just before Dallas Clint''s wife complained to him that he was keeping her from Jackie. He had been Jackie''s Secret Service agent for 3 years and she was the only Secret Service wife who hadn''t met her. \
It made me think it was possible.
- Part of the reason Jackie was so admired for her youth, beauty and style, was that the last First Ladies were Mamie Eisenhower, then Bess Truman and Eleanor Roosevelt. All three were older women, sometimes smartly dressed but they dressed their age and looked it. %0D\
Today, a First Lady might be older, but she would dye her hair, keep her figure, etc, a la Nancy Reagan, who was no spring chick but very fashionable and chic. Women prior to Jackie let themselves go.
- It was always suggested that Jackie planned JFK funeral. Then I had came across an article online written by someone in the White House that weekend who suggested it was Sargent Shriver. I wish I could find it again, it was interesting.
Now, Mark Shriver has written a book about his father, 'A Good Man', here's a excerpt, How My Father Planned JFK's Funeral.
She was teflon woman. Every lie she told people believe even with evidence to the contrary. Every good thing is attributed to her even if she had little input.
No wonder she never gave interviews, people may find out the truth.
- The more I read about her, the less I like her. The things she said about MLK and others sounded elitist and borderline racist. She did, at least, raise two children who, unlike other Kennedys, were comparatively scandal-free. But she was greedy and self-serving at times. Plus, she had a rather misshapen head, with massive hands and feet. She wore some nice clothes, however.
- Jackie O is not beloved. Jackie Kennedy might have been. But Jackie moved on, and so did the public.
Jackie O was respected, admired and an object of curiousity.
- Hey her husband was murdered, cut her some slack
- I am not sure if she is beloved or just admired for showing a lot of class after JFK died and keeping the children away from the press and not writing a tell all book.
- I don't know why. But I just find this woman to be just plain ugly. Like Ethel Kennedy once said of her "She's just a really ugly woman with great clothing." I agree with her on that.
- She was very bright,moved gracefully and restored the white house.she was different and people wanted to emulate her style, clothes and more importantly her love of her children. Consider the time she lived in, she was unique .
- Gore Vidal called her "the person who never did a single thing for another human being,besides her children".
- Ethel Kennedy is an ass-fraggle at the bottom of a bottle of Dewars.
- "She is there beside the rich and powerful, behind the rich and powerful, UNDER the rich and powerful!"
- I never realized what a screeching little terror RFK was. I idolized him. Thought he was the sexiest Kennedy. But as I've read up on him a different picture emerges. RFK was homophobic and hated Jackie's cousin Gore Vidal. One night, on his only invite to the White House, Vidal came over to say hello to Jackie and steadied his arm on the back of her chair as he leaned in, brushing against her with his arm.
Suddenly, Vidal felt someone removing his arm from Jackie's chair and looked up and into the angry eyes of RFK. Vidal watched as RFK walked to a corner of the room, like the morality monitor of the gathering, and, incensed, Vidal confronted RFK, who brushed him off. Vidal stayed at the party and left the White House with George Plimpton early in the morning.
Vidal got his revenge by writing a scathing article in Esquire, focusing in on RFK and why he is not right for the '68 election, and was immediately cut off from the Kennedys. Jackie, who had not witnessed RFK removing Vidal's hand because she had turned to speak to someone else, kept in contact.
This whole feud was the basis of a litigious battle between Truman Capote and Gore Vidal when Capote claimed in Playgirl magazine that not only had Vidal been thrown out of the party, he had been physically tossed onto Pennsylvania Avenue. Capote claimed Jackie's sister, Princess Cunt Radziwill, was the person who relayed the story to him and both Vidal and Capote tried to depose her. She then made her much quoted and offensive remark about "Who cares about them. They're just a couple of fags."
Vidal won. Capote wrote an apology.
Years later, Gore would see Jackie for the last time. It was a cocktail party in a small apartment with the entire Who's Who of society and politics on hand. Lally Weymouth asked Gore if he wanted to see Jackie, who was in the kitchen. Gore basically said she should come to him if she wanted to see him.
Soon, Norman Mailer insulted Gore Vidal who insulted Mailer back. They then wrestled each other in a tight almost homoerotic embrace in the living room, much to the stunned amusement of all the VIP guests. In Vidal's account, Mailer threw his drink in his face, ice cubes and all, and then sucker punched him with the glass still in his hand.
The bleeding (but just from having bit the inside of his lip) Gore Vidal sat down on a chair as Mailer retreated to the other side of the apartment, with Vidal's partner, Howard, screaming after him. Weymouth, who was giving the party, was hysterical. "I can't believe a fist fight is happening at my party. Somebody do something." Clay Felker told her "Are you kidding me? People are gonna be talking about this party for decades!"
Jackie appeared in the kitchen doorway as Vidal, sitting in a chair across from her nursing his cut lip, looked up. He looked at her and then looked away. When he looked back, she was gone. They had each had the same room at Merrywood, under different mothers. But he never saw her again.
Thanks for this absorbing, informative account. The last part makes me feel as if I were at that party myself.
- Jackie did exactly what she wanted. She never liked the role of First Lady. All the crap she did for the White House she did to improve the image of her and her husband. Even Jackie admitted in the 1970 's that Pat Nixon actually brought in more original antiques into the White House than she did. During her time at the White House if there was anything requested of her that she was opposed to, she had it passed off to lady bird. She told Tish baldridge not to ask her to do anything except for the arts. She loved her family and was a great mother. As for First Lady, it was all orchestrated to improve the Kennedy image and nothing more.
- Gore Vidal called her "the first commodities dealer." I think that that's overstating it; she was hardly the first.
- She was revered as the tragic widow after JFK was assassinated. That probably accounted for a lot of the Jackie worship. Her image was tarnished a bit after she married Onassis, but she still seems like she's up on a pedestal. She's totally undeserving of all the adulation. She was really an unpleasant person.
She was an incredibly snobbish, self-involved woman. All she cared about was money and her President husband and their pampered children. She wanted to have a fence put up around the White House to keep tourists out! She was told that the White House was not her private property and that she could NOT do that.
It is true that she never gave a damn about the less fortunate. She was an elitist. In her opinion, there are those who are worthy and those who are not. She viewed people who didn't go to Ivy League schools or live in mansions or have summer homes as the latter.
She was young and stylish; that was unusual for a First Lady, and that's why she was so popular. It certainly wasn't due to any personal qualities of hers. She was a cold, unemotional sort. "Fey" is how JFK described her. She had emotional problems like depression. She was also a compulsive spender. Mental illness appeared to run in her family.
She really was a crummy First Lady. She shirked her responsibilities whenever she felt like it. I heard she stood up a troop of Girl Scouts who had come to the White House to meet her!
She spent money compulsively. Seeing the huge bills, JFK asked her where the hell all the money went. She was vague about it; he told her it was a good thing he had another income besides his salary as President because if he didn't they'd be bankrupt.
As First Lady she would receive incredibly expensive gifts from foreign leaders and dignitaries. In fact, she'd get offended if the gift she was given wasn't of great value. After she left the White House she kept all the expensive gifts. Now there are laws prohibiting the President and First Lady from receiving expensive presents.
She didn't marry Aristotle Onassis for "security." She wasn't exactly destitute when she married him, but it wasn't nearly enough to provide her the life she wanted. She wanted to be filthy rich. So she married Onassis for one reason only: for his money.
Onassis was planning to divorce her, but he died before that happened. Not satisfied with what she was going to get after his death she sued for more. Christina Onassis loathed her; she let her have her millions just to get rid of her.
She's admired for her children turning out "so well." But really, did they? JFK Jr. was amiable enough, but aimless and not particularly bright. Due to his incompetence he ended up dying in a horrible plane crash, along with his wife and sister-in-law. Caroline has inherited her mother's "money lust"; she has plenty of money, but it never seems to be enough. And for all her education she's astonishingly inarticulate. She also comes across as a cold bitch, like her mother.
It amazes that people think Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis was such an admirable human being. She was NOT. Not by a long shot. I don't think most people know that much about what she was really like. Maybe that accounts for all the undeserved adulation. Ignorance...that's probably the reason.
- In Bobby's defense, R230, homophobia was the norm for men of his generation. I've always thought it unfair - and condescending - to judge others by latter-day standards.
On the other hand, the RFK idolaters in the media & the ivory towers (yes, I'm including Robert Caro here) have so whitewashed history over his role in the Cuban Missile Crisis. They have accepted his position that he, along with his brother were the lone doves in the room arguing for restraint. Recently released audiotapes reveal that Bobby, as befitting someone who was instrumental in trying to overthrow Castro, was a hard-liner throughout the 13-day crisis.
- R230, Gore Vidal's mother was married to the man whom Jackie's mother subsequently married. Was there something else that made them relatives?
- When Mike Wallace was interviewing Maria Callas shortly before Jackie married Onassis he suddenly asked her if she was going to the wedding. Without missing a beat, Callas smiled and serenely said, "I haven't been invited." Wallace, continuing to try to goad her, asked: "Why do you think that is?" Refusing to be intimidated, Callas, calmy continuing, replied: "I have no idea. .. Why don't you ask her?" .. It's very well known that Onassis continued seeing Callas throughout his marriage to Jackie, complaining about her spending habits, her icy attitude toward him, her quirky behaviour and her piss-elegant friends who treated him like a peasant. One can only imagine the ironic vindication that Callas must have felt. After he had screwed over his first wife, Tina, and then Maria, he had finally had his come-uppance from Jackie.
- Bullshit R35. Bobby hated gays period. JFKs best friend was gay and the whole family knew it. Bobby treated Lem Billings like shit his whole life. You can hate some for being homophobic and give others a pass for the same.
- [quote]Like Ethel Kennedy once said of her "She's just a really ugly woman with great clothing." I agree with her on that.
Ethel should talk about ugly...
- [quote]I've always thought it unfair - and condescending - to judge others by latter-day standards.
That always irks me, and it's exactly what's happening here. What the hell do you people think a woman who was born in 1929 in an upper-class family was going to do? Become a doctor, lawyer or start a non-profit? She was going to marry well and live a life of privelege. Period. That's what upper-class women of Jackie's generation did with their lives. And in Jackie's defense, once the women's movement took hold she went out and got an office-job even thought she didn't have to.
Jesus, next thing you'll all be bitching that someone who was born in 1929 was a cigarette smoker!
- I always thought she was as cold as ice. Just my impression.
- [quote] I've always thought it unfair - and condescending - to judge others by latter-day standards.
Over time, it's going to be increasingly medically possible to sustain a fetus's viability outside a mother's womb at much earlier stages. Thus, abortions will be increasingly frowned on and modern-day pro-choicers will be seen as on the wrong side of history. Those who are pro-choice & comfortable judging our ancestors by current standards should give some thought to how they may be viewed by future generations.
- She was born in 1929? That means she's eighty-four. She looks good for eighty-four.
- I just love this picture. God she reminds me so much of my mother.
- I waited on her several times in the'80's. Both at a restaurant and then several times at events as a cater waiter. She had a mystique. She was flawless! Extremely polite and nice. She did not really speak. She just moved her lips and would look at you right in the eye. She looked amazing for someone in her '50's. Mostly pantsuits. Her hair and makeup were perfect. And she smoked. They had a station set up for her to go and take a drag from her B&H 100's between talking to people.
One of the most captivating people I've ever dealt with. She also steered clear of Lee who was often at the same events.
- Imagine leaning in to hear her barely audible, whispery voice, amd getting a nice whiff of tobacco breath!!
- "She was going to marry well and live a life of privelege. Period."
Seems to me Eleanor Roosevelt was primed to do the same thing. But she didn't sit on her ass and spend money and look down on other people. In fact, she was a crusader for human rights. So to excuse Jackie O for being a rich, entitled, stuck up bitch because she was brought up to be one is a crock of shit.
- R247, Jackie O. accomplished many feats of cultural preservation. She arguable saved Grand Central Station from demolition, and she led the restoration of the White House. In some ways, she was as accomplished as Roosevelt.
- I think the things she said about MLK and Indra Gandhi were awful. Maybe she wasn't a racist, but what a petty, snotty bitch she was. Based on what I've read about her, she was ambitious and more than a little greedy. And yeah, her kids didn't turn out so great either.
- Eleanor Roosevelt was a real hero. Which women from more recent generations is a hero?
- Every once in a while, Jackie was caught with a cigarette in her hand when she thought there were no cameras around. She smoked about two packs a day, yet there are only a handful of photos of her smoking because she was so good at concealing it in public.
- [quote] She smoked about two packs a day[.]
And she died at 64.
- Eleanor Roosevelt, as great a woman as she was, was an anomaly. 99% of women of that class from that time were not like her at all. It was what it was.
Vidal was not Jackie's cousin. He was her half-brother, once removed.
- Good grief, R234, who shit in your cornflakes this morning?
- Wasn't there a printed rumor about RFK getting it on with Rudolph Nuryev in a phone booth? Maybe it was another lie made up by Truman Capote. Or Gore Vidal. It's a fabulous fantasy but I can't imagine it.
Lem Billings was adored by the Kennedy family, with RFK being the big exception. JFK was the opposite of his brother in terms of his flexibility with Catholic doctrine and dogma. He was a true intellectual. RFK, by his rampant homophobia and narrow dogmatic viewpoints, was not. In fact, at the White House on the night of Vidal's humiliation, Vidal sought out Lem Billings at the party to commiserate. Lem just shut him down and walked away. Vidal then went to JFK and said, "I'd like to wring your brother's neck." JFK excused his brother by saying he "takes his position a little too seriously sometimes."
Gore Vidal is often referred to as closeted but after writing The City and the Pillar in the 40s that claim doesn't hold water. Everyone knew he was gay (a word he despised). He certainly loved to kiss and tell. I never thought he was a great talent. He was very good in early television, coming up with one-hour television fables, much like Rod Serling, one of his colleagues at the time. One thing he was very good at was being a snob, darling. He claimed he never took it up the ass and loved to talk about those he'd fucked, Jack Kerouac being one of them. Brad Davis, another. He was extremely close to Paul Newman and Joanne Woodward, claiming that he and Joanne were engaged before she and Paul were married. They lived together for some time, leading me to hope that all the rumors about Paul's bisexuality may be true. Paul Newman. Now THERE was a God!
- Jackie was the ultimate gold-digger. She would have slept with Papa Joe if she knew it guaranteed her a place within the family.
- Papa Joe tried R257 she turned him down flat. That intrigued him. No woman had turned him down. Later when JFK 's fucking around was getting to Jackie, Joe started paying her clothing bill to keep her from leaving.
- [quote]Gore Vidal's mother was married to the man whom Jackie's mother subsequently married. Was there something else that made them relatives?
In other words, they both had Hugh Auchincloss as a stepfather, at different times (Vidal before Jackie).
- It's hard to believe Sarah Michelle Gellar once played the young Jackie Bouvier in "A Woman Called Jackie."
She got by far the best line in the whole miniseries: "Those who call it 'Miss Porter's' don't go to Miss Porter's."
- Pussy peddler with a touch of class.
- [quote]Jesus, next thing you'll all be bitching that someone who was born in 1929 was a cigarette smoker!
I'll never forgive her lack of support for gay marriage.
- I've always have had mixed feelings about Jacqueline.
On the one hand, one cannot help but admire how she handled herself during the whole funeral and regardless of how one may view her children, you have to admit they pretty much were the least fucked up of the Kennedy brood - an accomplishment she should be lauded for (plus, you can't argue she bore the best looking Kennedy man of his generation).
On the other hand, yes she was snobby, she was pampered - and some of her statements could border on racist (when in fact they were just a product of her class and age vs. racism) and she was an elitist. However, apply those same adjectives to the 40-odd First Ladies we have had and I challenge you to come up with more than handful they DON'T apply to.
At the end of the day, she was what she was and made no apologies for it, which itself deserves admiration.
One word about her voice - a lot of people comment on it, including my mother (who while by no means a Kennedy-phile, admired Jacqueline) and her gal pals and sisters, yet oddly enough as was pointed out to me by some university friends, my mother and her sisters all have the same type of voice and diction to varying degrees (never noticed it myself and as was remarked after, my imitation of my mother was way off the mark as a result lol). As they're from her generation and from NY, I wonder if it was just a generational thing, something they grew up with, were taught in their convent and all-girls schools? I remember some of my great aunts who when I look back, sounded like Dame May Whitty and the like - high tribbly voices, "girl" pronounced "gel" and the like -- again generational, my mother's didn't sound anything like them and my sister and girl cousins sound nothing like my mother and aunts. Oh well, just my 2 cents on the voice issue.
Finally, can we as a nation please STOP this ridiculous Kennedy worship (not including this thread here - more so the MSM)? If I hear Chris Matthews reference RFK or JFK one more time! I understand it is in itself a "cottage industry" of sorts with the books and such, but really? If it weren't for an accident of birth, would any of them be on MSNBC, 60 Minutes, sought out for comment, etc.?
This pack of self deluded over indulged rapists, drunks, drug addicts, murderers, homophobes, intolerant, pedophiles, self important pompous hypocrites (all Holy Marys for the cameras and in public - a totally different story in private) just need to go away, now. Please.
- "Jackie O. accomplished many feats of cultural preservation. She arguable saved Grand Central Station from demolition, and she led the restoration of the White House. In some ways, she was as accomplished as Roosevelt."
Roosevelt worked on behalf of PEOPLE. Jackie worked on behalf of...things. That was one of Jackie's major failings. She didn't give a shit about people. All she wanted to do was associate with the rich and privileged. Poor people, middle class people...ick! That was her attitude. She was truly a stuck up snob.
- [quote]you have to admit they pretty much were the least fucked up of the Kennedy brood - an accomplishment she should be lauded for
I beg to differ. My sons are scandal free. And, Maria had bad taste in a husband but is soon to divorce.
- Marina Oswald was prettier. Surprised no one ever made a movie about here. Bet she has a story or two to tell.
- Marina Oswald looks pretty bad in history. She withheld after-the-fact knowledge of her husband's attempted assassination of Gen. Walker in April 1963, while withholding from the Quaker Ruth Paine, with whom she was living in Irving, that Lee secretly stored his rifle in her garage.
- Dan-O-Rama made an excellent Jackie montage:
- R263 - Yup, Jackie's kids and the Shrivers seemed to be the most stable and scandal-free of the Kennedy clan.
I can understand the fascination with Jackie Onassis (regardless of whether it's deserved or not). She was arguably very beautiful, mysterious, poised and she and her husband brought a youthfulness and "vigah" to the White House that was unprecedented.
Also, as has been noted by others, her conduct during the funeral of her husband was considered very remarkable and some people believe that her stoicism is what held the country together in the days and weeks after the assasination. Maybe that's a little dramatic, but that's what some people believe.