I don''t feel like their fight is my fight.\
There, I said it. What do you think?
I never understand why transgenders are lumped together with lesbians and gay men and bisexuals.%0D\
as in LGBT
Well it''s about time we talked about this!
We get lumped together with them because in the eyes'' of the mainstream public we''re all freaks in a pod.
Sad but true
Anyone who says "There, I said it" is not someone with whom I want to be affiliated.\
Any minority that is discriminated against is my fight. %0D
Surely you can see why it is necessary to make a stand for equal treatment in our society before the law and every other way. Why would you expect anyone in the mainstream heterosexual community to stand up for you, if you cannot stand up for transexuals, or Jews, or Muslims, or people of color, or effeminate men? How exactly are your rights more important than their rights, or anyone elses.%0D
Jefferson (I think he is the originator of this concept) said that the continuous expansion of "all men are created equal" to those who are not equal in society (and he had the new US in mind), the better off that society is. Clinton has often repeated it, and of course Lincoln used it all the time. %0D
Jefferson of course had slaves, and he intended that they should be free some day well aware of the paradox of his actions. Odd guy that Jefferson.%0D
So yes, the rights of the transgender community are your fight. I suggest you ask yourself why they freak you out. They certainly do not freak me out- cannot imagine why they would. Neither do face lifts or any kind of surgery freak me out. As for their desire to change sex, who am I to say?
r-5 said it right. Anyone discriminated against as we are is part of our fight. Equality is a comprehensive issue and Gay rights is one among many.
Our haters lump us all in as queer, so yes, it is my fight.
I do, because to disassociate ourselves from them is no different than people who disassociate themselves from us. They say the same thing: Homos freak me the fuck out!%0D\
So how are you any different from homophobes?%0D\
Here''s the thing. Unlike other minority groups, people who are discriminated against or hated because of sexuality or gender issues do not have cohesive groups of support already in place. If you are black, Chinese, Hispanic, Jewish..you are born into an already established support group.%0D\
Transgenders are even more isolated than homosexuals, so to eliminate them makes us the same as those who condemn us.
[quote] Anyone who says "There, I said it" is not someone with whom I want to be affiliated.%0D\
I''m with you, R4. %0D\
And in actual conversation, does anybody ever really say "There, I said it"? Or is it only on Datalounge -- and in really badly written melodramas?%0D\
Oh, wait...they''re the same thing.
[quote]Any minority that is discriminated against is my fight. %0D\
Fine. I''m for fair treatment of the Gurkhas, too, but while I may identify with them, I don''t identify as one of them. Nor do I think another letter should be tacked onto some ridiculous rainbow alphabet construct.%0D\
Gay and Lesbian... fine. The rest of the LGBTQIA cornucopia are part-timers or something else entirely.
So, OP, can you tell me: What is it that you do (as in a specific action) for gay and lesbian rights? And why is this specific action made more difficult or less effective by the inclusion of transgendered people?\
Be specific now.
R5 sounds perfectly lovely, but is a bunch of bullshit. Every oppressed group faces its own specific challenges. We can empathize with one another, and we can be supportive. But we are not all one amorphous group of people whose struggle is the same. That's fuzzy headed thinking by people who mean wdell, but don't get it.%0D
The concept of "transgender" is not a simple one, and it's not without controversy. The idea that there is an essential, intrisic thing called gender, beyond biological differences, is something that can be looked upon in many ways. you could certainly attribute it to sexism, for example. lots of gay people grow up thinking they're the "wrong" gender, because of homophobia and the invisibility of positive images of gay/lesbian people. Patriarchy creates a very strong binary in terms of gender, one that attributes very specific behaviors and charactistics to the classifications of "woman" and "man". So the fact that some people feel they were born in the "wrong" body could easily be seen as damage...something that stems from having grown up in a society that doesn't tolerate gendered behavioral differences and sexuality differences.%0D
A lot of hospitals stopped performing "transgender" operations, because they found that recipients were often no happier after gender reassignment surgery, something that increased the risk for suicide. A lot of times people find that their biology did not need to be "fixed", but that they actually needed to accept that they just didn't conform to rigid gender conformity in regards to their behavior.%0D
Transgender is not a civil rights issue, it's a mental health one. There is no such thing as being born in the "wrong" body. It's a matter of people being unable to accept that they prefer feminine BEHAVIOR, even though they are biologically MALE. a lot of transgender surgery was stopped because it became apparent that people were using expensive surgery to try to "fix" the fact that they were self loathing because they didn't conform to gendered behavioral expectations.%0D
So NO, it's not an issue for us. Just the opposite. If we argue that gendered behavior is intrinsic, then we're making the homophobe's point for them...the idea that there's a right and wrong way for women and men to behave, and that behavior is essential and intrinsic. Not orientation...but BEHAVIOR. If we argue that people should go to any lengths to alter themselves to conform to societal expectations of appropriate gender behavior, then we accept the notion that gender is fixed and instrinic...and that notion does not benefite GLB people in ANY way.
Multiple links required, R12.
R13, no they''re not. You can look up the information yourself. Entire books have been written on the subject, and it''s well known that many hospitals in the US stopped performing the surgeries.
[quote]I don''t feel like their fight is my fight.%0D\
What is your fight OP? What is "our" fight? After all, some of us fuck closeted married men. Are they are part of our fight?
R15- no one asks the we include an "M" in the GLB designation, to stand for "married men we fuck". And YEAH, when we fight for gay rights, we are fighting for closet cases too.%0D\
The "T" is the debate here.%0D\
And here''s an interesting link.
R12, that's fine for you to have that OPINION. You are welcome to it. But it's just an opinion. I agree with much of it, by the way.%0D
But ultimately the choice is the individual's to make whether or not to change gender. It's not mine. And it isn't yours either.%0D
Again, I can understand not wanting to help fight for a blanket support of TG rights. But I don't get behind the idea that a TG operation is a sign of self-loathing and an attempt to gender conform. I've met about 20 TG's personally in my line of work, and while some are indeed head cases, many are actually very happy with their change in gender, and it seems to work for them. It's all about gender identity for many of them, and has nothing to do with wishing to placate the masses regarding their behavior.%0D
Go ahead and withhold support for TG rights, but don't assume your opinion has anything to do with empirical evidence. You certainly aren't informed enough if all you can do is spout and rebut any request for links, stating that it's common knowledge. %0D
It's just way more complex than you can comprehend, I think.
but that''s my opinion...
[quote] and it''s well known that many hospitals in the US stopped performing the surgeries.\
Johns-Hopkins is the only hospital that closed their gender clinic for surgeries.
I think if Trans people would just wait, they will be born into the body they want in their next life.
I really don''t think about it OP. And don''t really care if they want to be included in gay rights. Why do you as a marginalized person want to further marginalize other people?
I voted no
OP I voted yes on your poll, for the reasons others have stated. We''re all in the same boat, at least as far as public opinion goes.\
I''ll admit I don''t entirely "get" the desire for sex reassignment surgery. But even my most liberal straight friends don''t quite understand homosexuality, either.
I think we can fight for transgender rights without blurring it to be the same as gay rights. They are distinct, which is why the trans-inclusive approach to ENDA has been an absolute disaster for the larger gay and bisexual community.
[quote]the trans-inclusive approach to ENDA \
They gotten more protections at my job than I have.\
Granted, they changed after they were employed, but I was outed and no lawyer would help me...
r12 speaks for me.\
I think it''s a mental health issue.
I voted "no". Sorry, its just a bridge too far and frankly I think it hampers the cause. Do trans people deserve equality? Yes. Are they currently, at this crucial moment when we''re talking DADT and gay marriage, a drag on the cause? Yes. I''m sorry, you can be pie in the sky, or you can be realistic. They are an important, but separate cause. \
And, frankly, I don''t see it as the same thing. Gays and lesbians, by definition, DO NOT want to change gender, they need/want to love the same gender. I think that is completely different than wanting/needing to change gender. As a gay man, the last thing I want is to lose my penis, broad shoulders and facial hair, to be blunt. \
I think the closer we get to public acceptance, trans will be the one red flag that bigots will use to keep gay marriage, etc, from going all the way.
"Transgender is not a civil rights issue, it''s a mental health one. There is no such thing as being born in the "wrong" body. It''s a matter of people being unable to accept that they prefer feminine BEHAVIOR, even though they are biologically MALE. a lot of transgender surgery was stopped because it became apparent that people were using expensive surgery to try to "fix" the fact that they were self loathing because they didn''t conform to gendered behavioral expectations."\
BINGO. R12 I''m going to use your post in future arguments.
[italic]Any minority that is discriminated against is my fight. [/italic]\
I hate to have to break this to you, but many of those people who you are fighting for, will not fight for you.
[italic]Transgender is not a civil rights issue, it''s a mental health one. There is no such thing as being born in the "wrong" body. It''s a matter of people being unable to accept that they prefer feminine BEHAVIOR, even though they are biologically MALE. a lot of transgender surgery was stopped because it became apparent that people were using expensive surgery to try to "fix" the fact that they were self loathing because they didn''t conform to gendered behavioral expectations."[/italic]\
Then how is homosexuality not a mental heath issue too?
What I do think? \
I think you''re an asshole with boring, predictable opinions and smug catchphrases instead of reasoning.
Why do all the really fugly men become transsexual "women" and then fuck women?
Uh...R12, not too long ago, homosexuality was considered a mental health issue as well.
"Sorry, its just a bridge too far and frankly I think it hampers the cause."\
You think ditching the transgenders is going to help you with straight people? They''re not even going to notice.
While I support transgender rights, it is a distinct, severable issue from LGB rights. I think the movements should work together when practical, but also keep their separate characters. Also, I do think that we should be careful not to lump transgender issues with gay/bisexual issues, since there is an erroneous stereotype that gays want to be or act like the opposite sex.
Your all Biologically freaks, which doesn't matter to me But at least Gays and Lesbians Stay true to there gender the trans are just fucked in the head with all the self mutilation.
Can't all of the Transgenders just move to Rhode Island?
OP, you're an ass. As someone who's been marginalized, you should empathize with transgendered people. They have it even rougher in some cases. Get some compassion.
I'm not surprised by the indifference here. Proportionally, there as as many gay jerks as their are straight.
It used to bother me when women and Black people said that gay rights wasn't their fight.
As far as I've ever been able to tell, the fight for equality and civil rights is just one fight, fought over and over again. You either believe that we are all created equal and deserve the same civil rights or you don't.
I'm happy to stand with the Trans people and I hope they're happy to stand with me.
I backed way off of being friendly with transgendered people over a decade ago. I don't think their fight is my fight. The ones I have had experience with get angry if they feel slighted and they seem to be extremely sensitive. A few that I've known seem to only identify as being straight and seem to not need to be involved in LGBT stuff.
No. I think gender identity issues are a mental health issues that have absolutely nothing to do with homosexuality.
Gays are taught to love themselmes and accept that they were "born that way". Transgenders mutilate their bodies because they won't accept their biology.
Re: R23 and R40
From the comments I've read on the net, trans folks are fine with gays being discriminated against as long as they are, too. "Fire their homo asses until I can use womens' rooms!" Many of them, who identify as straight, lamented that the marriage equality fight was at their expense.
They seem very attached to old heterosexual gender stereotypes. They value that more than anything.
I guess I'm just too young and hippie-dippie. I don't discredit anyone's negative experiences with some transgendered people; I just have had different experiences. But I do believe we all share the fight for civil rights, whether or not some members of different groups don't feel that (which I've seen across the board).
The OP is the type of asshole that gapes wide in order to spread his shit as far as possible. Keep it.
R12 is a depraved know-nothing who thinks her declarations are an indication of something other than smug ignorance and bias. They're not.
Of course the struggle of transgendered people is part of my struggle as a gay man. Why? Because any denial of validation, respect, equality and provision of services necessary for well-being based on historical, social and legal reasons concerns me directly.
I understand the categorical differences between us. But I reject the glib and cruel distinctions of "They're sick and I'm not," and "They are fantasists and make gay people look bad by association."
Many transgendered people live superficially "gay" lives for obvious reasons. We have always banded together for mutual support. The desire to fragment the LGBT community, ostracize people as outsiders, or cravenly attempt to shun people as a P.R. move, is counterproductive and hurtful.
And the creeps, such as the OP, who are "freaked out" (bullshit) by transgendered people and who reject their place in our community are exactly the creeps who avidly include desirable heterosexuals as part of their in-group associations. I have no problem with that. The more we include, rather than exclude, others concerning our sense of belonging, the more we move towards a more seamless society. You don't achieve social cohesion by trying to cut off the people who are in most need of understanding and care.
R40, what does that mean for a trans "to only identify as being straight"?
I agree. Transsexuality is not aginst traditional norms, it is FOR traditional norms. That's why one of the most homophobic countries in the world - Iran - has no problems with transsexuality since these people conform to heteronormative society!
R48, that means trans people are changing sex only out of their own homophobia and "straight" guilt.
There is strength in numbers.
If every group that is marginalized based on sexuality, sexual identity or gender identity tried to campaign separately, they would get less support.
If someone is too ignorant to tell the difference between a transgender person and a gay person then why do you value their approval?
If you do not want to be associated with a certain group, chances are that you yourself have feelings of discrimination against them.
I agree with R1 R23 R24 R26 R27 R28 R33 R34 R40 and especially R42.
I probably agree with R12, but he really needs to use paragraphs.
It's not about you, Mary OP!
R51, transsexuals and effetes (and butch lesbs) make up 1% of LGB(t) people but they are the ones harming our fight for rights. We don't want to be accepted as trans perverts or loadyboys, we want to be normal people! Just men who love men and women who love women!
So why don't we just call it the LGBTBAHFMEPH (Lesbian Gay Bisexual Transgender Black Asian Hispanic Female Middle Eastern Physically Handicapped) community? Might as well become a catch all for every marginalized group in existence...
I think that's the very point OP is trying to make, R53.
Trans is not about gay. Gay is not about trans. There is no overlap, no gay/trans Venn diagram. The two are completely separate circles, no matter how much some of you feel the need to make them intersect.
I just use G, R55.
F&F for homophobic troll at R58
R55, so agree with you! I rather march with handicapped people who really deserve rights than trans and effete perverts!
r8, PC nut job
r54, MARRY ME!!
R59, if you agree with R47, you owe R58 an apology.
r63 I said homophobic not transfreakeffete-phobic! Trans filth should appologize to all gay people who suffered from effete propaganda and those millions who still stay in the closet because they don't want to be looked like effete freaks!
R64 My mistake.
Do you really think there are gay people who stay in the closet so they won't be mistaken for trans? I never thought about them until this year when I started reading about them on DL. I basically agree with you, though. They have nothing to do with me, a gay man.
R58 here. I'm confused, why am I homophobic? I am a trans ally and have trans friends, and I defend their dignity as human beings. That makes me homophobic? Please explain, as I am genuinely confused.
For the record, I am a gay man.
[quote]I backed way off of being friendly with transgendered people over a decade ago. I don't think their fight is my fight. The ones I have had experience with get angry if they feel slighted and they seem to be extremely sensitive.
Well how the hell would you feel if you couldn't find the fucking bathroom?
R66, yes, becayuse transsexualism is against homosexuality!
R65, just read recent Wenetworth Miller interview and how he didn't want to come ut because effeminate transexuals have taken over the gay movement and left no place for MEN. I tell you, that is exactly how 99% closeted men think. And why there are so many "straight" men who live rampant gay life but will never come out, even to themselves!
That is a revelation, R69. Thank you for elucidating further.
Okay, R69 (et trolldar al) is satire. I get it. Very funny! Well done!
No satire. Seriously, do you think a sane man would like to be grouped together with genderless screaming flamboyant creature?
I mean they can be genderless screaming flamboyant all they want, but how my love for dick should put me in the same boat with these people?
r69 nails it!!
oh yes, let's pick on Trans-people.
So very brave, OP.
If you had loved ones who were transgender, and truly cared for them, you would, indeed, see it as your cross to bear. I used to think like you. Then, a trans woman and I forged a relationship; I believe that her queer identity (sorry if you don't like my terminology--it is generally accepted as appropriate in my circles, which is comprised mainly of other PhD profs) is as valid is mine, and she feels the same. We fight each other's fights, just as I fight the fight for all other marginalized persons (I work in mental and behavioral health care).
There is, almost assuredly, nothing I can say on a forum such as this that could possible sway you. I don't even know why it matters to me what you think; but, I can tell you that my friend and those I have (I now believe) been blessed (by whatever force) to become close, feel fulfilled and more-whole to join in a spirit of fighting for each other's rights to just be.
r74, are you equating being Trans with being weak? I am scared to death of real bulldykes who are transgendered . Also, I know some "female" trannies who would give Bruce Willis a run for his money
"(sorry if you don't like my terminology--it is generally accepted as appropriate in my circles, which is comprised mainly of other PhD profs)"
The most pretentious post I have seen in a long time. Professors, for the most part are elitist robots who could not manage in the "real world"
There is so much fear on display from people who are afraid of being 'lumped together' with trans people. If you are truly comfortable with your sexuality and your masculinity, then what do you have to prove?
Who mistakes gay people for trans people these days? Is that really an ongoing issue in your life?
I personally admire the bravery it would take to be undergo a sex change. More bravery than the people who are posting on here could understand.
r78, either a PC loon, or a flamer or butch
R77, I live in the "real world." I was just noting that Queer Theory and the term Queer, applies to all LGBTQIA persons. Call me pretentious if you like, but I can assure you, I came from absolutely nothing and worked my ass off. There is no ivory tower shit here--I see 10-15% of my clients for free, though I don't have to, because I know what it is like to be in that place. Like my message or not, it really should not matter to me. It does, though, because you and I are against a powerful enemy of institutionalized marginalization, stigmatization, and oppression (just as those trans folk are, as well).
R78, would you want to be "lumped together" with people who have chronic diarrhea? And yes, homosexuality is still mistaken with transsexuality among the large majority of men. Whenever you see a "homophobic" comment it's usually people bashing effeminacy and not the attraction itself
WTF? Aren't you leaving out some letters? Where does it end?
How many close female friends do you guys have. I would imagine that there is a correlation here.
How many close male friends do you ladies have. I would imagine there is not a correlation there.
That is why R1, I prefer Queer to Lgbt or LGBTQ or lgbtqi as I believe we are up to. I agree with R5 but insofar as OP may be saying TG is hard to identify with or relate too, his position is understandable. Minority positions are often like that and there's a big world out there.
R80, jesus Christ
Transgenders see themselves as having a physical deformity that requires medical procedures to correct. That is far different than the way I and 100% of my gay friends see ourselves.
For a man to have sex with other men is to act in a way that is not in conformity with society's gender roles.
Transgender folk may take their transgressions to a greater extreme but it's all just a matter of degree.
Gay people who want to disassociate themselves from the transgendered piss me off. They're like the wannabees who look down on the jigaboos in Spike Lee's School Daze, those reachers who want the upper echelon to lower its bar just enough to include them and no one else.
If I were a chick, I'd be straight and normal, so please, cut off my junk.
Don't bring us into this fight R90 !
Some syndicated radio show recently reported that at least one college admission application asked applicants to identify by sexual identity, offering 9 possibilities. Any idea what those would be? Here's a guess:
Gay male - same sex attraction
Lesbian - same sex attraction
Transgender to female - opposite sex attraction
Transgender to female - same sex attraction
Transgender to male - opposite sex attraction
Transgender to male - same sex attraction
R91, thats exactly how trans people think. that's why they're our enemies.
Can't I just have a BLT!
The annoying thing I observe frequently, is that those on the "non-traditional gender spectrum", and their shrill supporters seem to do NOTHING except sit at home decreeing certain descriptive words "humiliating" and "insulting", while substituting the correct ones! These change weekly, and without notice, turning supporters into the enemy in moments!
Lots of people are pre-op, or post-op, but many more are no-op, and just prefer to live as the gender (or non-gender, or genderfuck) that feels authentic. Of course asking them, "Would you prefer to be addressed as a man, or a woman" is the same as being a hateful murderer, so don't go there!
I said to one woman I know - who for some reason feels she is a boy, but does not work at looking much like a boy, "If you don't lighten up and quit being such a pain in the ass, I'm going back to calling you a 'butch' like I did when we met!" Happily, she's a funny and warm person, and I made my point. Be who you are by all means, but stop pretending you don't realize we live in a binary gender world. Make it easy on the rest of us by helping us along without the vitriol, we're just trying to get it right!
Yet allowing for male circumcision, or being insufficiently an "intact-ivist" is a moral outrage, but cheering on the major trauma of gender reassignment surgery is a-ok!
For fuck's sake, the whole movement is about the rights of SEXUAL MINORITIES, and that includes transgendered people whether you like them or not. It's not just about you.
Personally I have a hell of a lot more in common with transgender individuals than bisexual ones. We should drop the B entirely.
I think identifying ourselves with the disorders doesn't help gay people advance their own rights and interests.
I don't identify with bisexual people but I still advocate for equal rights for them. And we don't deserve equal rights if we're only fighting for our own interests. For an adult to legally decide how their sexual identity manifests itself mustn't depend on my approval or anyone else's to be protected.
There are trans people who identify as gay.
"If you were a tree, what kind would you be?"
The idea of sex-changes and transexuality started in an era when homosexuality was still classified as a mental disorder and feminism was pretty much unheard of. It was in this distinctly unliberated era of warped ideas about gender roles and sexuality that the idea and practice of sex changes emerged. Then came a bunch of people making money off of it, from the "doctors" performing operations to phds sitting universities creating courses and dogma, to young adult writers promoting it to confused kids to mainstream media seizing it as the latest entertainment.
R103 is Joseph Goebbels!
Heil Hitler! Kill the trannys!!!!!
Um, I think you missed "straight", R93. Or don't straight people indulge in higher education where you live?
I don't know why transgenderism offends all of you. Do you think people would go to such extreme measures if they weren't so uncomfortable in their bodies? It's like you think they are really gay but don't WANT to be gay, so they just cut off their dicks. You really need to educate yourselves. Highly troubling.
A majority of MTF transsexuals identify as lesbian post-transition. I don't know the percentage of FTM gay transsexuals, but I would guess it's higher than the national average.
This means AT MINIMUM that a high number of transgender folks ARE homosexual, so by definition their fight is ours as well.
But beyond that, a huge number of transgenders don't have clarity what's really going on inside their brains and bodies. The vast majority start out identifying as gay or lesbian before they say, "OK, not gay, I see now I'm transgender."
In other words, a majority of transgender people start out identifying as gay, and very many transgender people end up identifying as gay. With that in mind, how in the world can you make the trans struggle separate from the gay/lesbian struggle?
I agree R106.
[quote]Anyone discriminated against as we are is part of our fight.
No. A common bond of being "discriminated against as we are" may make allies of people in similar situations, but it doesn't make them the same group of people. There has to be more in common for a class of people that being discriminated against.
Transgendered people are amongst my heroes. If they can get out of bed every day and put a smile on their face forr the world then so can I . Rock on.
Yes, Charlie is right.
I don't understand the desire to be transgender, but that makes no difference. They're not hurting anyone, and they are discriminated against and persecuted, just as blacks and gays are. They should be able to live their lives free of oppression.
[quote]I don't understand the desire to be transgender
You seem to think it's a matter of choice. It's not.
I didn't know charlie was trans.
Do the majority of MTF transexuals really identify as lesbian? I've only met a few transpeople, but the FTMs always seem to end up back in the lesbian dating pool (though often partnering with social justice types who identify as "queer" rather than "gay") and the MTFs usually are left to make do with being fetishized by "straight" guys who want nothing to do with them in public.
What if told you that you can support transgender rights and still think it is a separate fight from gay rights. Lumping T to LGB confuses people and has probably done more harm than good for both movements.
My biggest reticence is that cutting the body does not feel natural to me (I include cosmetic surgery too). It feels wrong somehow to support another person's loathing of themselves as they are. However they wish to behave or view themselves is fine by me, but the cutting part is hard to swallow. They were already given a perfectly good body. It's even not my preference to mess with intersexed bodies, because I believe there is wisdom in nature. But that's another subject, I know.
I'm glad this was brought up. I've been trying hard to accept transpeople. I want to be inclusive, but I can't get my head around mutilation, society paying for it, and supporting hating the way one's body is. I can extrapolate that concept out many ways. I feel I was born into the wrong socio-economic group and I'd like a re-assignment, please. I don't think my nose represents me accurately, so I require a better nose, a nose that's more Me. Society at large, I'd like you to pay for that change, while patting me on the back for being my authentic self.
I realize gender and sexuality are considerably more charged than my glib examples above. I'm not trying to offend. I feel for transfolk, and I can't claim to know the perfect outcome. I read a cis privilege list one day, where trans people wrote out their ideal treatment in society. It was both the most entitled piece of shit ever, and sad, showing how much trans are discriminated against in subtle ways.
They're trying to fix the law to allow trans people in the bathrooms they prefer, but coming from a woman's perspective, any old perv (who wasn't really trans) could hold up the trans card for easy access to prey upon women in a room where they take their pants down, or in a locker room where they get naked. Whether they believe they're women or not, they have a physiological strength advantage over people born as women, which could be scary and unacceptable to the very large quantity of women who've experienced sex abuse in their lives. Much though I want to be inclusive, I'll go by my gut feel and if someone doesn't feel right or I feel vulnerable, I'm outta there - if s/he doesn't prevent my passage. Sorry to be a drama queen with the extreme example, but it's a real concern.
There are so many things down the road that could be problems. It's a very big deal that post-op people are still commonly unhappy and prone to suicide. That shows more research is needed. I think it's more important to prevent suicide and work with the individuals in question, fostering their health, before any body cutting.
R112, I don't know if it is a choice or not. I have no experience with it. But it doesn't matter to me as far as believing that transgender people deserve equality.
I have met some lesbians who claim their sexual preference IS a choice. So what? Whether it is a choice or not, I believe they deserve to live their lives free of oppression.
R116, the bathroom argument is stupid. There is nothing stopping a pervert or rapist from going in the women's bathroom now to "prey" on you. That little woman on the door is giving you a false sense of security if you seriously think that a sign is going to deter someone intent on victimizing someone. Show me one instance of someone claiming to be transsexual to use a bathroom to commit such a crime.
R111, those "lesbians" are idiots. Their orientation is bisexual if they are able to make the "choice." Bisexuality is an orientation no different that heterosexuality and homosexuality, not a preference per se.
R118, they say that the "choice" is about more than just sexual attraction, i.e., it's about more than where exactly they fall on the Kinsey scale. There's sometimes a heavy political element involved, for example. Who am I to argue the point?
It doesn't matter wrt equality to me, anyway. Choice or not choice; what's the difference?
I don't believe anything that can be corrected surgically is an "ism." Besides, voluntary surgery is a personal choice. If it's successful, no one knows, if it turns out poorly, every one stares and shrieks .
Those are the rules, live with it.
The surgeries don't always go as expected. This Belgian chose assisted suicide after his botched operation ~
Although I support some transgender rights, I think they are pushing it too far with their lack of respect for peoples' religious objections in restrooms. Just because you are transgender does not mean that everyone has to treat you like the sex you wish you were. Further, I wish it were detached from sexual orientation issues. They are not the same, and I denounce the associate. Gay and bisexual men have a tough enough time trying to shatter stereotypes of themselves as feminine or girly. We don't need to confuse the issues any more by associating it with transgenderism.
[quote]Joseph Goebbels!...Heil Hitler! Kill the trannys!!!!!
103 didn't advocate killing anyone, as you very well know.
I'd say lying about your opponents and attempting to silence dissenting opinion as you do is far more Nazi-like.
I feel like if anyone is being oppressed for no good reason it is my fight.
You are so full of shit, R118. Yes, women get assaulted by men all the time in women's bathrooms. But the answer is not to allow more men (transexuals) into women's bathrooms.
R18--Evergreen College has had an issue with a pre-op MTF trans exposing male genitals in a common dressing room to young girls (there's kids' swimming classes there.) And all the college can do about it is screen off an area for the families. "Civil rights" in this case seems to include indecent exposure in front of minors.
So, yeah, the bathroom/changing room thing can be an issue.
Ad Hominem attacks are typical of an individual or group that knows they can't win on the facts.
And if the name calling and smear tactics don't work the next step is usually an all out attempt to stifle or silence the dissenting view.
It's a hallmark of the totalitarian mindset.
I don't know, R127, it seems like a fairly paltry and easily remedied "issue" to me.
The MTF student should be more conscious and discreet when minors are having swimming lessons at the college.
The college should separate minors from adult students whenever possible. This is particularly needed in areas where the minors will be disrobing, like the pool. Banning adult students from the locker rooms during children's swimming lessons would be a simple solution.
There should be curtained off changing areas within the locker rooms anyway. I don't care if people see me strip down at the gym but children should be given the option of a little privacy.
[quote]My biggest reticence is that cutting the body does not feel natural to me (I include cosmetic surgery too). It feels wrong somehow to support another person's loathing of themselves as they are.
I used to feel the way you do, until I met someone who explained it in terms of a birth defect. The brain and hormone system developed one way while the rest of the body developed another way. You'd correct a cleft palate, or lop off a sixth toe, surgically fix any other genetic anomaly, wouldn't you?
r127 REEEKS of frau.
Hormones and surgery don't transition anything, they just create an illusion. And often not a very convincing one, which turns into heartbreak and disappointment for the patient.
Someone else posted about how fake vaginas in a bio male have to be dilated because the body is trying to heal the wound by closing it up. Unbelievable but true.
You can behave and dress the way you want but you can't surgically change your genetic makeup.
[quote]You can behave and dress the way you want but you can't surgically change your genetic makeup.
You seem to be forgetting that your genetic makeup has to do with your hormones, brain chemistry, and other chemicals in your body as much as it has to do with your genitals. Surgery is an attempt to bring the physical body in alignment with the chemicals that are telling you who you are, fundamentally.
so wouldn't it be a lot easier and safer to fix the brain to match the body?
Why on earth would anyone butcher their body when hormone replacement and meds could align the problem?
[quote] You can behave and dress the way you want but you can't surgically change your genetic makeup.
No, but it's none of your business if someone wants to take hormones and have a mastectomy or orchiectomy or more in order to bring the physical body into alignment with the gender they wish to represent.
R135 I am not R132, and I agree with you that it is none of my business, etc. But you make it my business when you post on gay websites and insist upon attaching the "T." I would absolutely love, adore, cherish, and even crave a state of being in which you trans would detach yourselves from us.
[quote] I would absolutely love, adore, cherish, and even crave a state of being in which you trans would detach yourselves from us.
Many of of would be just as happy divested from the LGB. We never asked to be aligned.
You see, it's a medical/psychological issue. I support their being treated fairly where they are treated unfairly but I don't know why they're enjoined with LGB. Political correctness, I suppose.
I've known since childhood that I was born into the wrong body -- NOT the wrong gender, but the wrong species. (And if you don't support me, you're a Bigot.)
Transgendered is not part of the Gay/Lesbian group, anymore than the [...] guys are part of the GAYS.
God help me but what is TLPG?
[quote]Surgery is an attempt to bring the physical body in alignment with the chemicals that are telling you who you are, fundamentally.
What chemicals? It's an ignorant, binary gender-obsessed society telling you that you're in the wrong body, and you don't need to internalize this. An otherwise healthy body is not 'wrong'. It's wrong to believe that surgery and hormones can make you what you're not, biologically.
I agree that trans people are a whole separate thing. As a gay man I don't associate with them AT ALL and it angers me to be lumped in with them.
For that matter, why is B included in the initial salad?