Spent one autumn in Montana. Loved it. Crazy about Bozeman.
I grew up in Billings, MT. It''s very blue collar and ugly. Northern MT (around Glasgow) is a barren wasteland. My family had a farm up there and the great entertainment was shooting gophers all summer. Eastern MT is affectionatlely known as the armpit of the state. Horrible, ugly, flat, you drive for a whole day between towns. Those are the ugly parts.%0D\
The rest of Montana is actually beautiful, moutainous, full of wildlife and great skiing.
Not recommended for Jews, coloreds, fags, Mexicans or orientals.
P.S. Those states are not the Northwest.
[quote]Those states are not the Northwest.\
Wyoming and southern Idaho definitely not. The Idaho panhandle and western Montana around Missoula and Glacier National Park are considered the "Inland Northwest"
Come to Yellowstone, OP.
They are becoming full of Mormons, spilling out of Utah. Half of Idaho is Mormon and almost a third of Wyoming.
Those places, along with Eastern Oregon and bits of Colorado, are where we get a lot of our crazier residents.
Geographically stunning, culturally less so. More than it''s share of loners. Famous people from Idaho, Wyoming and Montana: \
The Unabomber \
the guys who killed Matthew Shepard \
Helen Chenoweth \
Sen. Alan Simpson (Catfood Commission denizen) \
Idaho may be considered part of the Northwest under some circumstances, but Idaho, Montana and Wyoming are usually designated as part of the West, the Mountain West or Intermountain West.
"P.S. Those states are not the Northwest."%0D\
Northwest, by definition, is a quadrant. Cut the US into quarters. They are the Northwest. %0D\
Why are they so empty? It can''t be just the cold. Minnesota and Maine and Michigan are cold as hell during the winter. Maybe it''s the smell of rot wafting off of Cheney.%0D\
Large tracts of public land or graze/ranch land. Not much urbanization. Limited penetration by highways. A shitty climate (cold and driving blizzards in the winter, summers hot as hell, droughts all the time.) More reasons needed? People usually like to live in more accommodating places.
Friends and I hiked the Snake River in Idaho. It was some of the most beautiful wilderness I''ve ever been in, but who would want to live in Idaho with all those crazy survivalists?\
I can''t imagine living in any of those three states unless I was in a large college town. Otherwise it''s too oppressive.\
I live in the West. Marlboro Men are not that entertaining in real life.
David Lynch is from Missoula, Montana.
Physically beautiful states.
Raised in Laramie, Wyoming--home of the Matthew Shepard murder. So glad I''m out of there. Wyoming is divided geographically into the upper half and the lower half. The upper half: mountains, trees, lots of greenery, Devil''s Tower, Tetons. Lower half: sage brush, prairie and grasslands, very rocky. Not a bad state if you love snow (I''ve seen it snow every month out of the year--yes, including the summer months) and Republicans. Oh, and also if you don''t mind an economy where the median income is about $22,000.
I was reading on another board about how Montana is open-minded. Conservative, yes. But people there have a live and let live attitude. "Do what you want as long as it doesn''t interfere with me" kind of thing.%0D\
True? Or crap?
[quote] "the prettiest place I ever saw"\
I''ve found that attitude to be true a lot of the time in Montana. I have a ranch there and have spent a good amont of time living there. There are a lot of relgious types there, and you steer clear of them if you can. The everyday people seem to be individualists and many have a "live and let live" attitude.
[quote]Northwest, by definition, is a quadrant. Cut the US into quarters. They are the Northwest. \
By that definition, R20, Wisconsin is in the Northeast, Missouri is in the Southeast, and most of Kansas is in the Southwest.\
NO one uses such a broad definition of "Northwest" when describing the continental US.\
However, you''re right in that most people WOULD consider Montana and Wyoming part of the Northwest.
R21 you forgot the most important thing, which is there's not a lot of water.
Montana is probably the best out of that group.
Basically what you said R11 is the mountainous West is good, and the rest of the state sucks?
All you can do in most places is grow wheat or raise cattle, both of which have a very large and always increasing minimum efficient scale. Beyond that, there's some tourism in a few places, and that's about it.
Eastern Oregon and SW Idaho is about as beautiful and remote as it gets in the Lower 48. Keep an eye out for rattlers though. They hide near rocks, and if you get bitten the antivenin will cost $20,000 and your recovery will still be months long and real painful.
Eventually I got tired of trying to tell people from the city that there's a reason we wear what we do. The thick suede boots protect against snakes, and caps or hats against sunburn. A long-sleeve shirt is actually cooler than a short-sleeve, not to mention the sun factor.
Most people never get off of I-84 and fewer yet away from U.S, 95, which is pretty much fine by me. I used to try to convince people what it's like around here, but not much any more.
The people are a mixed bag. Not real high on the Mormons.
The fact is most of the US is empty. Most of Texas, OK, NB, SD, ND, Washington State outside of the Seattle and Spokane are. Maine, Montana, Nevada etc etc etc. Even places like GA and AL have huge swaths of unpopulated areas. Tennessee too.
Reagan/Malcolm Baldridge started a rich WASP exodus to that area which was already peppered by Hemingways and such.
Eastern Oregon is getting trendier now though, particularly around Bend.
I've only been to Boise in Idaho. Cute city ... has its own African-American Museum!
Helena, Montana and Cheyenne, Wyoming were incredibly boring.
[quote]David Lynch is from Missoula, Montana.
The operative word being "from".
I remember when I was in college driving across the south of Georgia, from East to West. I think it was mostly route 82 but I don't really remember. We drove for a few hours without even seeing another car. Occasionally you'd pass an old rundown, vacant shack. It was a beautiful drive.
R36, Bend is central Oregon. Used to be more of a cowtown, but the Californians discovered it. Went from 20,000 to 90,000 in about 25 years. They have a ski operation at Mt. Bachelor and some golf resorts nearby.
Now there's another way to think of it, which would call Eastern Oregon a "state of mind" and geography, meaning pretty much anything east of U.S. 97, which is what runs through Bend.
But any more, Bend wouldn't be what Eastern Oregonians would call Eastern Oregon. Go 25 miles or so down the road to Prineville, and that's where people might say Eastern Oregon starts in that area.
So essentially what many have been saying is that of the US population of about 310 million perhaps 80% lives in an urban setting which makes up less than 10% of the land? That still leaves maybe somewhat over 60 million scattered around the rural areas of the country.
I'd say the "capital" of Eastern Oregon, if you'd call it that, might be Pendleton. Town of 15,000 best known for the Pendleton Roundup rodeo and the wool blankets and clothes. Five or six places to buy a cowboy hat within a mile of "downtown," and anything less than a long-bed crew cab 3/4 or 1 ton pickup is what we'd call a subcompact.
Baker City would be another candidate. Old gold rush town of about 10,000 about 100 miles east along I-84 which by the way follows the Oregon Trail. Both Pendleton and Baker City are about 250 miles from Bend (Pendleton a little shorter but not 100 miles shorter -- you'd have to check out a map to see why).
Both places still survive pretty much the way they've always been, except that Pendleton Mills isn't much more than a marketing outlet for clothes they import. Kinda hurts to get a Pendleton shirt and see Made in Mexico, or a "Wyoming Trader" western shirt and see "Made in China."
Then there are little towns like Jordan Valley, Burns, and Lakeview. Lots more cattle than people out here. Beef is what's for dinner Never order seafood in Eastern Oregon if you value your life ha ha.
[quote]The fact is most of the US is empty.
Mmm, more like HALF the US is empty - roughly the western half. The eastern half is quite densely populated overall, with densities easily exceeding some european countries in many places. Water is the most important determining factor.
Population density map for the lazy, as people said it just depends on where you are looking in the US. But yeah the big middle of it is pretty empty.
R40, in Oregon, 3% of the people live on 50% of the land, and that overstates it people wise because in the empty part, almost everyone lives in one of about six or seven small cities which are postage stamps compared to everything else east of U.S. 97.
The same is true in Idaho, NE and NC California, Nevada outside of Reno and Vegas, Wyoming, Montana, New Mexico, and the Dakotas. Not a lot of people in Eastern WA either, especially if you ignore Spokane and the Tri-Cities where the population is on a temporary spike because of the Hanford nuclear cleanup.
Arizona is empty outside of about four or five cities too. The big reason is what I wrote about before: water. There ain't a heck of a lot of rain between the Cascades-Sierras and the Rockies.
I had no idea that Kentucky was that densely populated. Bizarre.
He may not be around anymore, but R12, I LOVE your response!
[quote] Horrible, ugly, flat, you drive for a whole day between towns.
Why don't they plant trees in the ugly places?
Have unspoiled forest instead of flat, ugly, empty.
This thread got me into looking into this and found a even better population density map if anyone else is curious.
What! r48, and deprive the rich of payment of more of their fair share of taxes to fund a useful modern day CCC to plant trees and employ people! Bite your tongue, or rather your hands that typed such things. Tsk, tsk.
Norway is about 60% empty. They do ok.
Born and raised in Bozeman, Montana and have lived here and there in Montana since moving back to my home state in 2006. We are only half-joking when we call it "pverty with a view". If you are a medical or allied health professional, you will have the easiest time finding work. Otherwise, be prepared to start your own business. And it's no place to live if you aren't fond of cold weather. Sub-zero temperatures are common. I have lived in eight states and two other countries but I am happiest in Montana, where pompous people are put in their place rather quickly and six-degrees-of-separation is closer to two or three. Brian Schweitzer, our soon-to-be ex-Governor, is probably going to run for President in 2016.
R48, yep, I'm sure here are a whole lot of ugly places in the cities that could use a lot more trees. But that wasn't what you were referring to, was it?
In much of Eastern Oregon, most of Eastern Montana, a lot of Nevada, most of the Southwest, and much of Eastern Washington, there isn't enough water to sustain trees.
Juniper grows in a lot of those places, but it's a major water hog. The Indians would burn it every year, and the federal government pays us to help eradicate it because of the damage done to streams.
Before suggesting the planting of trees in the "flat, ugly, empty" places between towns, do two things: Block out a couple of months and go see these places. Pay attention to what you're looking at, which means getting off the Interstate and and really looking around. Second, do some research.
It always helps to have the slightest idea what you're talking about. On my place, I've put a lot of effort into bringing back the native bunch grass that was here hundreds of years ago. Not trees.
[italic] I am happiest in Montana, where pompous people are put in their place rather quickly[/italic]
Ain't that the case, though. Same's true pretty much everywhere in between the Cascades and the Rockies, with the possible exception of how the Mormons seem to worship their leaders like vampires and zombies or something.
I can't think of any better place to be if you find yourself in trouble, especially when you get away from the Interstates. This is a part of the country where people still care about each other, maybe because there are so few people.
High population densities are overrated - they increase the risk of epidemics and genocides. Just look at Rwanda for the latter.
A friend of mine invited me to Missoula and I went up and spent a few weeks. Truman Capote said the best writing courses were at "Mizoooooola." I ate a gigantic steak down at the Depot and spent a weekend in a home cabin up in Ovando where they filmed A River Runs Through It. They took me to a party, down a long dirt road and then a house in the middle of nowhere with a smoking chimney and a big party of young hot university students inside drinking beer.
But I love New York City.
I am in favor of "high population densities," as long as I don't have to be a part of them. I really only worry about one thing along those lines: that the people in the big cities on the coasts and the Midwest come to regard the open range as some sort of expendable wasteland.
The open range feeds you, and it is this country's heart and soul. Fly over it. Ignore it. Laugh at it. But please folks, don't treat it as any kind of dumping ground or wasteland, which has been all too often the case in years gone by.
R17, you ain't got nothing on us bitch
If you look at R49's population density map and compare it to a US precipitation map, there appears to be a correlation.
r30, so it's you again. I recognize your diction/writing style from an old thread where you stated that you lived on a huge E. OR ranch and had wild stories about dead Mexican farmhands. Everyone thought you were an EST. Is this correct?
Now I believe you, a year or two later. You know of which you speak.
My ancestors were among the first whites to settle in Central Oregon. Am also part "Native" but not enough to get Casino bucks. You can't swing a dead cat and not have hit one of my many gay or lesbian cousins you've had sex with up there.
For the record, NorCal, OR, WA, and BC form The Pacific Northwest.
R60, yeah it's me. That thread was typical for here. I just didn't know it at the time. I wasn't mad that people didn't believe me, especially after I kept it up trying to convince everyone here. That's the last thing you should do here. But when it got deleted I was pissed.
That was a year ago, and this is a slack time so I'm back for a while anyway. We'll see how it goes, but I'm not going to talk about the vaqueros or how much land. That's what seemed to get everyone going.
Some people include Idaho in the Pacific NW because it was originally part of the Oregon territory. I am kind of a history and geography buff, and divide it up differently.
Obviously, the state borders are what they are, some of them having been drawn the way they were because of the railroads, at least partly. I see it as the Cascades and west as one region. Then between the Cascades and the Rockies as another. Within that, north of the Columbia and the southern bank being the Missoula flood plain. Below that, the Great Basin, going down into Nevada.
But I guess if you go on the "political" map, meaning the boundaries of states and provinces, I'd pretty much agree with what you wrote, and allow for people to quibble about Idaho and northern California.
So. Ore and NorCal are the State of Jefferson. Ever listen to Jefferson Public Radio?!
Sorry, I think your old thread got deleted because I posted some "revealing" questions, which you may or may have not answered.
You know my family and mine knows yours, I'm sure of that. That's a consequence of the Empty Northwest. Webbie won't let us get introduced.
Am very happy to have moved to a big city, but you know I sometimes miss seeing stars on a clear night, high desert snow, cheap bar drinks, the sounds of a raging river, migrating ducks, and all that. You will also understand why I got the fuck out.
There's a collage of obsidian arrowheads, knives, the family rifle, paintings of The Sisters, and pipes above my fireplace.
California, despite being the most populous state, is surprisingly empty. Try driving up I-5. Once you leave LA, it's 300 miles to the next city (Stockton.) And anything east of the Central Valley and north of the Sacramento-San Francisco area is relatively empty. Also the desert areas beyond the Coachella Valley and east of San Diego.
Yes, but R49's map gets rather lazy for the most densely populated color.
Two hundred and fifty to almost sixty seven thousand?
I live in a big county with a lot of small towns in Central Florida and we are most definitely on the lower end of their range.
R30, FDR put plenty of trees in places that were flat and ugly and dry and didnt have trees before. And those trees lived.
Do some research.
R62, this is what I was afraid of. I can see it was a mistake to post here again. Goodbye, hope you're happy.
R49's map is a joke for Malheur County, Oregon. There's one small city (Ontario) at the northern tip of a county that's 100 miles tall and the size of Maryland, so it shows "yellow," but if you actually come here you will find out right away that there is pretty much nothing and no one anywhere else other than Jordan Valley, population 200.
This is one of the emptiest counties in the lower 48 but it shows like there are people here. Goes to show what happens when you rely on people who probably haven;t even flown over in an airplane.
Okay, that's enough. R62 wants to pick up on the stalking so I'm gone. This is probably the same person who said he or she was going to call the dang sheriff to track me down for my posts a year ago. I suppose that's why the other thread got deleted and why I was pissed off for a year. Man it ain't worth it.
Anyway, if anyone gets to Eastern Oregon, just get off the Interstate, shut off your car and listen to the wind and look out all the way to the horizon. It's real nice out here if you like the wide open and the stars at night.
All the best folks.
Absolutely not stalking you, r30, nor was I the one who threatened to call the sheriff!
Was certainly skeptical about your authenticity in your original thread, but that was the only negative comment I made. Some of the other comments made were pretty vicious, if memory serves.
I love your writing and just the fact that someone else from Eastern Oregon posts on the DL. My sincere apologies for offending you -- that was far from my intention.
Fuck you, r62!
I love reading Rancher dude's posts.
Thanks a fucking lot for running him off.
Okay then R62 maybe I was too hard on you but what happened last year was rough. Maybe it happened cause everything I post goes through a friend in Seattle who knows how to keep all this away from local eyes.
He says maybe whoever runs this site looks at ip addresses and thought I was a fraud. All I ever wanted to do was kill time and tell stories when I was laid up and suddenly there were people who were talkin about sheriffs and fish & game etc.
This is the slack time, short days long nights, cold and cabin fever and a little crazy. Look forward to calving in February. I don't know how much to say or what to say, it's like a sidewalk in the city but who knows where the cracks are?
Anyway it's a good place to be but this year we want to go somewhere warm, maybe Hawaii. Owyhee to Hawaii, makes sense ha ha, we're brothers.
I live in Boise and I love it here. But I wouldn't want to live anywhere else in Idaho and not anywhere in Montana or Wyoming. Boise has almost 500,000 people in the Metro area (Ada and Canyon counties) and that's about 40% of the population in the state. The city is relatively liberal, but the farther away from downtown you get the more conservative it gets. The Mormon church is predominant in southern Idaho, a little less so in Boise, but there is no getting away from it. One interesting thing is that there are refugee programs that relocate people to Boise from all over the world. The largest number of Basque people in the world (outside of the homeland) lives here. There are days you can hear a half dozen languages spoken in the Albertsons downtown on 16th street. And the gay couples all seem to shop late in the evening at the Winco store downtown. The diversity is very localized, though.
I've spent time in Montana for work and to a large extent if you are not a native the people there will treat you with a slightly snotty distance as if you are not good enough to be in their presence. Some of them are proud of their willfull ignorance, though it probably only seems like it's a majority.
r30/70, what do you do in calving time? Do the cows calve on the range? How old are the calves when you brand them?
r30, thanks for responding. I vividly remember that thread and of what and how you wrote. Your stories of life on the ranch are so fascinating to me.
I did make some skeptical, snarky, and "pointlessly bitchy" comments about how your writing style was too intelligent and "forced-folksy" to be believed. Now I believe that you are real.
But I was certainly not one of the ones who wanted to call fish and game, etc., about the you know what incident. Life happens. I understand that. We all try to do our best, yet "no good deed goes unpunished" as they say.
Hope to read more tales from you on this site and that you don't shy away -- but you might want to avoid detailing certain misfortunes that others might not understand. Wishing you all the best!
R72, sometimes we'll have to help out and pull the dang thing out but not too often. Mostly we make sure we know where the cows and the calves are. Unfortunately calving time is prime time for thieves so we are all on alert.
Cows give birth wherever the heck they want to, and then they will get separated. That's one reason the rustlers are out there. At our place we've gotten much harder on that so we haven't had the trouble we did a few years ago.
We used to wait 2 months before branding but now it's a month because of rustling. This is a mixed bag because when I was in rodeo I was a steer wrestler and team roper so I always liked branding more when the calves were bigger.
But now that I'm gettin older the earlier branding works better but it reminds me of how old I'm gettin because it don't seem much easier, ha ha.
Anyway, calving's late February well into March, with the weather being a factor. This is a pretty normal year. Spring is the time of new life all around and we all love it.
R71 I feel for ya. I love it here but have never been much for the Mormons. Bunch of tight assed thieving hypocrites. They don't even trust each other for good reason, ha ha. Remember Moroni begins with moron.