If the economy is so horrible, why isn''t it obvious?
Bostonian here. Bars and restaurants are crowded here every night of the week. Over the weekend, I tried to get a parking space at the mall to return something from the Apple store, and the parking lot was jam-packed. The Apple store was crammed with people. \
Are people just in denial? Spending money they don''t have? Not affected?? I don''t understand. Who are these people who haven''t worked in 99 weeks, who work 30k/year jobs? My neighborhood bar, dry cleaner, coffee shop, etc. does not seem to be suffering. \
I don''t mean this post to be snotty. I am genuinely curious - do people just spend and go out anyway, even in economic distress? If I were unemployed, I would be home eating frozen burritos.
Boston wasn''t hit as hard by the housing bubble and lay offs didn''t affect it as severely as southern cities like Charlotte or Phoenix.
How do you know these people are unemployed, OP?
Those unemployed folks are home eating frozen burritos, where you can''t see them, you arrogant asshole.
what r3 said
Op, I live in Boston too.
I think if you have a job - things aren't bad. If you are living in Boston proper - chances are you are surrounded by people who make 75K plus.
I own a small business. I owned a condo in the south end for 10 years. I sold it 4 years ago and moved to southie. I went from a 2400.00 mortgage and paying by own utilities to paying 1200.00 (including utilities) in rent. It killed me to sell my place and leave my neighborhood - but I saw the writing on the wall. It was a good thing I sold.
My business works with restaurants and I can tell you they are hurting.
The one thing I have notice is that the lack of business makes people crazy. Things are very unethical - the people I work with are desperate and acting like slime. Everyday I'm dropping the hammer on someone and micro-managing so that standards don't slip. It's crazy. Everyday I'm talking someone down and scolding someone else for taking the easy way out.
We are better off then the rest of the country and I think Deval Patrick has done very well - but don't be fooled - things are not good.
Oh R3 lighten up.%0D\
I was in Cleveland and Chicago (work and fun, respectively)over the weekend, and same deal - the shoppping center I was in was packed, and the restaurants were packed as well. The place I had lunch at on Monday ran about $60 each for the bill, and we had to wait for a table.%0D\
Surprising for a rust belt city that Obama is visiting this week.%0D\
It''s the 80s again: haves and have-nots. No middle.
I think everyone''s story is different. There is definitely some combination of people spending less, but also spending on credit. I know I fall into that bracket.
I must say, I live in a medium sized deep south town and the bars and restaurants and high end stores are full all the time. I don''t see much signs of drastic times. Everyone I know is traveling and buying cars and redecorating and getting on with life. College, weddings, debuts, nothing has slowed down. I don''t get it. I''ve cut back. But when I''m out it''s slammed everywhere.
Underemployed in Los Angeles here. I can say that I still go out and browse shops or spend a little, use a dry cleaner for interview clothes, get coffee, it is important to get out of the house (apartment) and remain social. On the other hand, I have used money that I may not have or use a credit card. It is a bit of denial, it''s how one copes. But it still really sucks.
I eat frozen burritos but I''m not unemployed, I just hate to cook.
It''s not just the numbers of people out, op. I agree, it does seem large in Boston. But I''d add that people are spending less, and that even if the mall parking lot is full, less money is going through. At restaurants, no dessert or less wine. The little added expenses helped smooth a lot in a good economy and now there''s no padding at all.
It IS odd. I live in a cruddy town in the south. Stores are packed, etc. It''s easy to be dismissive and say that this isn''t the reality of the economic situation, but it''s hard to believe --- based on observation --- that the economy is broken.
OP, I just brought Ramen Noodles for the first time in over a decade. %0D\
This is a sad time for me.
I also live in Boston and am in real estate. Everyone in the business has remarked that even with its built-in "foolproof" rental market (Boston has a huge influx of students every year, most of whom need a place to live) this summer has been the slowest ever. Sept. 1 is when everyone''s lease is up. Only people who had to move did so. Everyone else stayed put.\
Also OP, maybe you should watch some movies from the Great Depression of the 30s to see that some people (including movie moguls!) at that time were living extravagantly while others were having trouble feeding themselves and their families or keeping a roof overhead. I recommend "My Man Godfrey".
Not Complaining, But Not Rolling in Money Either
Old Carole Lombard movies are the best guide to the economic conditions today!
This past weekend was a long weekend, the last of the summer - Labor Day. Of course the malls and restaurants were full. Everyone was out getting back-to-school shit for the kids or looking for fall clothes or just enjoying the last bit of summer. Not exactly an accurate sample weekend.\
Cuz you''re STOOOOPID, OP
Wow, OP bases his observations of hundreds of people and reaches a conclusion about the economic welfare of a country of 400 million - about 30 million or so lost their jobs. \
Honestly dude? Fuck off.
Things have been busy in town for a few weeks because students are back and they have financial aid and their parents'' money. Wait until mid-October.
I work in medical records for an ortho clinic in Boston, and for the last few months they have had fewer clients. The doc left his tape recorder on one day after transcribing something and I got to hear him make calls about financial issues that were affecting his clinic, and things are not pretty. I''d say it was because he sucks, but as a doctor he''s quite good and usually in demand. It''s just that less people are going to an ortho if they hurt their knee.
r15, I got my Real Estate license several years ago and worked off and on. Last spring I took a RE job in the south end with a property management company. One of the agents did only 30K after usually during 80K during the rental season. I did better then that but only because a friend used me as a buyer agent.\
Another agent I know - had to refund 8K in fees. The agent who he co-broked several properties with took off with the deposits and hasn''t been heard from since.
You mean "fewer" not "less", r21.
It''s a fair question, so settle down, R19.\
OP, hard economic times doesn''t mean people are dressed in rags and begging on street corners, necessarily.\
But they''re hurting. Some charities are about to go belly up. Restaurants here in LA - which has been hard hit - might be doing brisk business on weekends, but they''re almost empty other nights of the week. You can drive around and see "For Lease" signs everywhere - one after the other.\
Shoppers might be at the stores, but they''re not spending much. Friends of mine are still in their pricey homes and driving their shiny cars, but their 401k''s have been decimated.\
It''s hard to describe. There''s a sense in the air that we haven''t felt the full brunt of it yet. The other disastrous shoe has yet to drop.
Boston has been slow to feel it because it is so medical-heavy but the economy will eventually take down doctors and their mighty incomes. We simply cannot afford to maintain such a large class of people at such high levels.%0D
Op--there are still plenty of rich people and people who didn''t lose their jobs are still going to go out. What you are probably ignoring are the marginal bars and restaurants that are out of business that might have made it in a stronger economy.
It IS odd. I live in a cruddy town in the south. Stores are packed, etc. It''s easy to be dismissive and say that this isn''t the reality of the economic situation, but it''s hard to believe --- based on observation --- that the economy is broken.\
You need to come to my cruddy town in California, the, Empty storefronts and houses everywhere, 17% unemployment, and increasing numbers of signs in store windows proclaiming that they accept EBT.
I say, sport, I was just out with my chum Ottalie and her pal Bertie, and we had a swell time, except for the few beggarly types trying to get at us for a hand-out. %0D\
I can''t say I''ve seen any of this recession thing you all talk about! We''ve never had a better time--a wonderful summer in the Med with some terrific wine and I might add that even the servants looked happy! %0D\
What ho, everyone!
Harvard and MIT have lost untold millions in the past two years.\
Boston and Cambridge are indeed about to feel the crisis hit home.
I work in an upper-middle class city in Southern California (LA metro). The real estate industry is still dead as far as I can tell. The big projects are few and far between these days. For awhile (the last two years) we were busy with home improvement projects - room additions, remodels, new pools, etc. - but now even those projects have turned into a trickle. Everyone that comes in to city hall now mentions how it seems like a ghost town. Eerily quiet.
To an extent restaurants and bars will always have some business, restaurants because almost everyone eats out on occasion, bars because drinking is one thing people here won't give up no matter how little they make. Most of the people I knew in grad school were so broke they couldn't make rent, yet they wouldn't give up their weekend bar jaunts or movies, cable tv, Starbucks coffee. There are some things people won't give up no matter how bad it gets. I know so many people at my workplace who live paycheck to paycheck but no way in hell would they ever give up their Blackberrys. They find ways to get by even if they live in debt forever.
Seeing people in stores doesn't necessarily mean they're buying. I go to the mall every now and then but I haven't bought anything from them in years. I go to my Apple store too, play with the iPods, play with the iPad and the Macbooks. Don't buy anything. Malls are one place where practically one store goes out of business every month and this was true even when the economy was good. High overhead inevitably leads stores to close. It's no wonder they're struggling and online shopping stores like Amazon are bustling.
It is obvious if you take your head out of your ass.%0D\
Retail stores have only been mildly busy due to back to school time. This will stop very soon. End of summer translates into going out to get drinks or a bite to eat but will soon make way for cooking and eating at home.%0D\
I personally know 3 people getting married in the next 6 months and all 3 have scaled way down to save $. %0D\
I have a house on the market for the past 6 months with no offers. I work at a college and read financial aid appeals everyday and just in 1 small private school, there have been over 350 appeals in the past 3 months due to loss of jobs and income to a student''s household. I''m not sure where you''re looking but it''s pretty obvious to me.
It''s not a Depression until people start giving up cable. The Social Security Act of 1935 is a brilliant document. If it weren''t for the government turning Unemployment Insurance into a temporary welfare benefit MILLIONS of people would have flooded into the streets HOMELESS. \
None of the Republican fucktards will acknowledge that Obama has preserved the American middle class by giving us enough to ride out the worst of this storm. All they can do is vomit out bilious criticism.
R25, the percentage of Americans who are MDs are infinitesimal at best. Chances are, you''re not going to starve as a doctor, but when adjusted for inflation, doctors are making LESS now than they did 20 years ago. Most I know live just fine, but they''re far from sprinkling gold flakes in their coffee or smothering their food in truffle oil.
Banker and CEO Salaries Are Really What''s Insupportable
I was at an upscale outlet mall outside Atlanta and there was not one parking space. Shoppers were wall to wall, and they seemed to be buying.
I support the OP in his or her observation.%0D\
The clubs and restaurants are jammed, I flew 3 Xs last month and the airport was a nightmare and hotel rooms were hard to find in SF and LA.%0D\
A real disconnect to the news coverage. %0D\
I think there is a lazy element out there.
The idiot OP needs to read this NY TImes article that was published just last week.
Outlet malls are not the same as shopping malls and have their own bag of tricks to get people to buy. \
I once read an article on all the tricks outlet malls use to get people to think the products are cheaper when they''re not and get people to buy, not just browse. Can''t remember most of them now but one I remember - most of the outlet malls are located in remote places away from housing districts. The idea is to use the ''sunk costs principle'': people drive all the way to these things and then think to themselves, we spent all this time and gas money to come out here, we HAVE to buy *something* or it''s a wasted trip. It''s a very clever psychological tactic, actually.
Yes, OP, your anecdotal evidence is better than the data collected by the government and Wall Street.%0D\
If I were so fucking stupid, I''d take my own life. Immediately. %0D\
75,000 students just moved into (or back into) the Boston area in the last 10 days. Their parents brought them (that''s another 150,000 or -). And since they stayed in hotels, they ate out.%0D\
Have you ever considered that Boston restaurants look packed because none are over 1200 sq. feet? I lived in Cambridge for three years and everywhere was crowded, always. Every bar. Every night. There''s no public space in the city.%0D\
Christ. It''s no wonder this country''s in trouble.
Fortunately, I''m able to tuck away $1600. a month, after expenses.
I am also another poster here in real estate. I didn''t work in the industry during the boom times so I personally don''t have that experience to compare things to. I work in a busy market (nyc) and things are selling if they are priced right, buyer are out there - but things WILL sit if they are not priced realistically, I''ve been doing very well, and just had one of my best months ever, but others in the industry complain that it is nothing like it was a few years ago - but to me it''s still really good even in a "down market"
I work at an advertising agency in Los Angeles. Our main client is in fast food. Food sales are down so advertising revenue is down. So, employees haven't gotten a raise for two years. No health insurance now. No dental. Hourly people don't get vacation or sick time anymore. But the owner (and this is a small agency) just booked a second and third cruise for this year. The owner "deserves" to make as much as needed because of the liability for owning the agency. The rest of of us are lucky to have employment.%0D
I swear if we would get off of our fat asses and everyone comprehended what was taking place there would be a revolution. These jack asses are writing off all of their personal expenses and calling them business and we are paying all of the taxes. Every single meal, cable, cell phones, gasoline, cars, home improvements, everything bought at Target, their water and power bills, flying their children and grandchildren home...everything! There are no audits. There are no repurcussions. NOTHING!!!%0D
What does it take to get people f**king mad around here?%0D
There will be no middle class very soon. You will either be a "have" or a "have not". We will be at the mercy of these self annointed providers.%0D
I am pissed and I don't know why everyone else doesn't see through this whole show they are putting on for us.
I see a thread like this every month. While I sort of understand OP''s confusion, I still think it''s sort of a stupid question.\
Do you really expect universal bread lines? The economy, even a weak economy, is big. Many people are doing well, even more people are doing "fine," and even more people are, for now, balancing their house of cards, living on credit and borrowed time. \
Look further and you really can see clear signs of a horrible economy, but, as stated, it''s not going to be horrible for every single person. It''s "horrible" based on specific economic indicators compared to other periods.
At my K-Mart in rural America today I stood in line for 15 minutes as the single checker worked through a bunch impatient people, mostly fraus with back to school shopping. \
The store was actually nearly deserted except for the crush at the check stand. The frazzled checker stated that the store cut hundreds of hours per week and laid off about 10 people the beginning of the month.\
This is lower to middle class America dying, asshole OP.
It''s a pretty legitimate question, screeching aside. There ARE a lot of people in stores in certain parts of the country. Housing prices and sales ARE up in certain parts of the country. There are a lot of other drags on the economy--the yuan''s value, housing starts, vacancy rates, etc.--that aren''t immediately apparent to the casual observer.%0D\
No it''s not. Homelessness has risen by 4 or 5 times since 2000. Prices are up in Houston and DC and NOWHERE else. People are starving to death again. Emergency rooms are full of people who can''t get to doctors. The life expectancy, which did increase because of aspirin preventing heart attacks, has started to decline again.%0D
r42, maybe you should tip off the IRS about the head of your agency. Believe me the IRS does NOT like to be cheated. I sat on a jury trial in federal court several years ago for the trial of a guy who was doing just what you describe. He was claiming business expenses for everything. Years later he was actually featured in a novel about excess and greed in the Hamptons and it was interesting to read about his castle in Southhampton several years after I sat and listened to endless testimony from the architect about pizza ovens and other minutia about the house. He claimed his luxury house on the beach as a business expense all so he wouldn''t have to pay taxes. Well, it caught up with him and we found him guilty. The IRS usually comes calling sooner or later.
Oh, in about six months it will be pretty obvious for everyone.
It''s sure the fuck obvious here in Ohio. I''ve had my house on the market for a year, good house, good price, no offers and no lookers.
[quote]Old Carole Lombard movies are the best guide to the economic conditions today!\
[quote] "One of the agents did only 30K after usually during 80K during the rental season."\
The apple store is always packed with people using the computers and iPads but I rarely see people actually buying things. \
I''ve definitely noticed a drop in traffic at Amoeba music in Hollywood. Used to be cars were lined up waiting to get into the underground garage. Now it''s no problem getting a space. I know people mostly download music and use Netflix for movies but Amoeba still did a strong business, especially after Tower and Virgin closed. But now I worry that the last remaining music store in Hollywood will go belly-up.
Old school media buyer
It's already obvious where I live. There are for sale signs everywhere in residential areas, along with quite a few houses that are boarded up and others that appear to be vacant.
In business areas, there are for lease signs on buildings that have always been fully occupied. I also notice a lot of small businesses that have gone under and the number of customers in the large stores is much smaller than in the past. Merchants say they are getting some customers, especially for things like back to school, but no one is spending like they did before. I was in Lowe's a few evenings ago when the manager came up to the assistant manager who was checking me out and told her to send 4 people home. The store was almost empty at the time.
When I go to a restaurant, I don't buy any frills. No appetizers, no desserts. I've noticed far fewer people in the restaurants than in the past. There's a popular restaurant up the street from me that seems to have about half as many customers as usual.
Tow trucks hauling repossessed vehicles has become a common sight on our streets.
I've read that the federal bankruptcy court is swamped with new bankruptcy filings.
I've been told the only people making money are attorneys who handle replevin, foreclosure and bankruptcy cases.
OP...Whether you know it or not, thousands in the Boston area were laid off in the financial servies industry...and those jobs aren''t coming back.
OP...You have a very narrow and myopic view of the world.%0D\
Your post reminds me of the people who were pompously and ignorantly saying last winter that the Earth couldn''t possibly be experiencing global warming because it snowed so much in their area of the country.
My partner and I both unemployed, live in an upscale area in SF. You will see us at cafes, restaurants, shops, window shopping, hanging out in parks, etc., because we have nothing else to do. We don''t spend much, but we find excuses to get out of the house. Never set foot in a box or discount or hardware in my life until 2 years ago. Now I do my own home and car repairs. No more personal shoppers, maintenance staff, tailors, dining and drinking out every night, cabs, and business travel. But we can be seen with neighbors going out to see a matinee or a local school play. Also do a lot of volunteer service - again, very visible - some neighbors even think we both work - but not spending much money. We''d still be competing for parking spaces if we still had medical and dental insurance. My old company is dead and the building is vacant but we''re very much alive.
[quote]My partner and I live in an upscale area in SF.%0D\
Are the homeless in your area, upscale too?
Folks in my town are doing all right, but the average income here in Medina, Washington is down to $687,000/year. You can really feel the crimp in some people''s style.
"I was at an upscale outlet mall outside Atlanta and there was not one parking space. Shoppers were wall to wall, and they seemed to be buying."%0D\
Moron, the reason the outlet mall was packed is that a lot of people who used to shop at the actual mall stores can''t afford that so they headed to the outlet. It''s a pitstop on the way down hill to Walmart.%0D\
Restaurants packed? Are you sure? Out here in Seattle, one of the really noticeable things is that you can walk into any restaurant on any night at any time and get a table. I''ve been turned away only once in six months, and that includes at the very peak times.
[quote]The clubs and restaurants are jammed, I flew 3 Xs last month and the airport was a nightmare and hotel rooms were hard to find in SF and LA.\
And the key phrase there is ''flew 3 Xs''. You''ve clearly got money and are going to places where people have money and are doing things that other monied people are doing. The wealthy are wealthier than they''ve ever been. Of course the clubs are jammed in your rarified world.
I think OP is confusing what happens on a Saturday afternoon - when everyone goes out - with what''s going on the other 6 days of the week.%0D\
And, as others have mentioned, just because people are taking up space, doesn''t mean they''re spending.
[quote]Fortunately, I''m able to tuck away $1600. a month, after expenses.%0D\
Do we have a "tuck away $1600. a month" troll? We get it dear. No need to mention it in every thread about money or the economy.
I get what the OP is saying. My first time visiting family in the US I was shocked by the amount of things Americans seem to buy and their spending culture. The portions of food, the uneconomical cars, piles of cloths, everything. Even when my family insisted that it was all so cheap, the amount of stuff they were buying seemed way over the top to me.%0D\
I used to think Americans are just spoiled and are just used to consume all the time, no matter what, but I%C3%A2%C2%80%C2%99ve come to realize that the way the market is in the US forces people to spend a lot. There used to be little appreciation, I thought, for buying better things in less quantity, or for keeping things longer. Maybe this period of down sizing will only do good, in the long run, for people in the US.
I think it''s important to realize that, despite how bad things are right now and how high the unemployment rate, there are still millions more people working than not. These people are, for the most part, still going about their business and doing the same things they always did.%0D\
Fortunately for us, my partner and I are both still employed. However, we have several friends who arre not so fortunate and we''ve seen how quickly things have unexpectedly go downhill for them. One day they''ve got what they thought was a secure, good-paying job, the next day they have no job, no insurance, no nothing, and with few prospects in sight.%0D\
Therefore, we''ve been very, very cautious lately with our spending, just in case.
I live in a NYC suburb and three new restaurants opened this summer in my tiny little village. They are packed, as are every other restaurant in town. One of the new ones is booked solid every weekend through October.
While the OP's post may seem callous, there is truth to it. Fact is the recession is very much a function of location. Las Vegas and Pheonix among other places are in desparate condition. NYC is pretty much back to normal with Wall Street making money hand over fist. The very rich are still very rich, the middle class are a bit worse, and the lower categories of wealth are hurting the most. Lower middle class and even middle class in those communities I mention above and others like them are hit very hard. But the top 10% are roaring along. And of course the GOP wants to keep the tax cuts for those folks, yet get rid of the deficit- by cuttingh services that benefit the poor generally, in time of recession. %0D
During the Great Depression about 3/4 of the country's wealth was wiped out, including the very wealthy, Central Park in NYC contained a large shanty town of the homeless, and the great dust storms created by poor farming practice blighted the West- creating a vagrant class. Nothing today is remotely like the Great Depression.%0D
My Dad's father was an engineer employed in his PA town during the depression- middle/upper middleclass at the time. For a few years my Grandmother fed the neighbors- a middleclass neighborhood where people formerly with stock portfolios could not afford to feed their families.%0D
Wall Street compensation is back to record highs. Hedge fund managers making hundreds of millions pay 15% Federal tax- and the Tea Party wants you to give them more, because it is they who create jobs (the only jobs created in the past year came from stimulus funding)- so they insist. %0D
Strange times, you bet.
Interesting, r42. I''m beginning to seriously resent "business owners." They''re greedy & don''t want to pay taxes.\
And so many "self-made" gazillionaires are running for higher office these days, sinking millions of their own wealth into campaigns. What do they expect in return?
I''m in Los Angeles. I know several people who are struggling. I don''t think the economy will improve here anytime soon.
My partner and I had this some discussion last Saturday night while we were sitting in a packed restaurant. We live in Chicago. There have been layoffs at my workplace and there are owners in our condo building who are unemployed or underemployed, but otherwise we don't know anyone who's out of work. Although there are more empty storefronts than we're used to seeing, things don't look that bad when you're out in the city. Plenty of stores and restaurants are still out there, all of which seem to be doing decent business. But some factors I raised in our conversation include:%0D
1. Inner cities like Chicago (and Boston) didn't see the overbuild of retail space that suburban areas did. So when stores started closing, the suburbs were hit harder. Just consider the big box chains that have folded in this recession (Circuit City and Linens N' Things immediately come to mind). Those left gaping holes behind in areas that already had too many stores to begin with, and most of those areas were in the burbs.%0D
2. There are way more incentives and loyalty programs out there than there used to be to try to get customers in the door for repeated business. Whether it's Starbucks and their special cards or the "frequent f*ckers" program being advertised by our local bathhouse, businesses are demonstrating by their behavior that their traffic is down. %0D
3. Call it affordably luxury, the staycation trend, whatever, but things like eating in restaurants, manicures, massages, etc. are the last things that people will give up when times look hard. It's much easier to not do something big, like taking a big trip or buying a new car, than giving up dozens of things that individually cost so little.
"And so many "self-made" gazillionaires are running for higher office these days, sinking millions of their own wealth into campaigns. What do they expect in return?"%0D\
Keeping taxes low. %0D\
You do realize that desperate people will hide their desperation, right? Oh, it''ll look like everything is okay from the outside but the picture is anything but okay from the inside. And, the repercussions for a lot of people will be going on for decades to come.%0D\
Some of you are acting like toddlers. If I don''t see if with my own eyes, it''s not happening, etc.. Here''s a hint. Do you have any friends who''ve recently stopped contact with you? Friends who are all of a sudden busy every time you ask if they want to go to lunch or do something?
[quote]No more personal shoppers, maintenance staff, tailors, dining and drinking out every night, cabs, and business travel.\
How terrible it must be for you.
R63, I believe they''re just referencing an epic meltdown of a thread that happened a few months ago. The thread is gone now, but it''s where the original THREAD CLOSED came from. A callback to that thread never fails to make me smile.
I live in Las Vegas. If you drove down the streets in the residential areas here, OP, you'd know there was a recession in a minute. %0D
I live in a nice middle class suburb, near a lot of shopping. Down the road is a strip mall, that was once full of furniture stores. Now every store is vacant but two. Across the street from that is another, huge outdoor mall. The bank is broke, the largest anchor store is completed and never opened. A small grocer didn't open for two years after it completed. Almost the entire mall is vacant except for a couple of fast food places. %0D
Yesterday, I went to the hardware store. Next door, the large anchor supermarket to that mall is closed. It was there for years, in excellent condition. Downtown, there is an area with a lot of furniture stores. Several are based in California. The head offices shut their Nevada locations. You can drive down the street, and every mall has vacancies, not just a few, but half the mall. Plenty of the malls are for sale.%0D
My neighbor across the street is in foreclosure. Other neighbors have taken their houses off the market and are trying to rent them. They have had "for rent" signs for months.%0D
The strip looked busy, though, when I went down there last weekend. A tourist probably wouldn't notice anything.
Last two weeks in August and first week in September is the back to college crowd. Took my daughter to school and went out to a decent place for lunch as part of our "good-bye" ritual. Getting our meal was a little slow and the waiter commented on it, noting there were a lot of people there who were dropping off their kids at college, which backed up the kitchen.
[quote]These jack asses are writing off all of their personal expenses and calling them business and we are paying all of the taxes. Every single meal, cable, cell phones, gasoline, cars, home improvements, everything bought at Target, their water and power bills, flying their children and grandchildren home...everything! There are no audits. There are no repurcussions. NOTHING!!!\
Shit like that really does need to stop. All those effing deductions are nothing but subsidies for them that gots. Aren''t they the same ones promoting free enterprise without government handouts or involvement? All it does in contort the marketplace. No wonder hotels, for example, are so expensive when they''re mostly used by business travellers who deduct them.
I like to go once a week to this strip mall that has all the cheapies: Family Dollar, Dollar Tree, Big Lots, Dollar General Store and a WalMart. On my way home I stop at two thrift stores that get lots of merchandise turnover and have 75%-off sales. Makes me feel good to come home with my 1989 Volvo wagon full of "new" goodies.
The OP is neither insensitive nor stupid. Some of you bitches need to lighten up. It''s just an observation.%0D\
I switched jobs last year when it became apparent to me that layoffs were coming in my department. It took 9 months to find something I wanted, and took a serious pay cut, but I have a job. Less than a month after I quit, some of my colleagues were laid off and they haven''t been able to find work since (it''s been 7 months). They still post about vacations they take, things they buy, and the like.%0D\
To me, it''s like the orchestra playing as the Titanic sinks. Not denial, but a sense of dignified resignation that as long as you can''t do anything about it, so you may as well hold your head up proudly as the ship goes under.
Some business owners not only cheat on their income taxes, they will abuse their sales tax exemptions. If you buy goods for resale, you show the certificate, and you aren''t charged sales tax on the purchase. I know a guy who owned a healthcare business, had a certificate, and would use it to evade sales tax on big household purchases, like appliances. He definitely was not reselling microwave ovens.
Then there''s all that crap about the Great Depression? Have you ever seen a movie from the 1930s? All they ever did was get dressed up in satin gowns and tuxedos and drink champagne. The nightclubs were packed!
I live in the Bay Area and storefronts and shopping centers have slowly emptied in the last two years. Most of my close friends have lost at least one job in the last 18 months. The PR and marketing friends have resorted to consultancy jobs, or in one case, gone back to school. I''m not sure the latter is it - she''s pursuing a Masters'' in the same field she can''t get a real job at in the first place.\
I work in theme parks and business is down overall. Season passes are supposedly up, but season pass holders don''t spend more with us overall. We''ve been in freefall since ''07 and that''s every park, not just the big deal name I work for.
The liberals kept trying to feed us propaganda about soldiers dying in Iraq, too. If that were true, where were the coffins? I saw hardly any ceremonies on TV showing soldiers coming back in coffins.
I sadly left Boston after losing my job. I do miss that city tremendously..\
That is the most chilling aspect of this recession. So many people just. don''t. get. it.\
There are still more people employed than not, but it chills me a little when I speak with people and they are untouched and unfazed by the state of the country, and quite cocky about their lives. \
I feel extremely alone sometimes here in New England. I recently became employed again but really lost everything I had- complete shift in quality of life. Not many people around here seem to get it. It took me a year to find a job and the prospect of going through this again truly scares me.\
But I do get what the OP is saying. I don''t think he feels this way but was observing what he sees. I am seeing the same things.
I work in real estate law. Let me tell you, it's sure as hell obvious to me, this recession.%0D
I'm very lucky to have clients that need representation, but the kind of work they're doing is very different.%0D
Instead of adding investors, buying large swaths of land, signing up large mortgages, going into credit default swaps, etc...%0D
-clients selling their properties and then renting that same land from the new owners.%0D
-clients buying property, but letting the seller carry a promissory note to pay the balance that the buyer can't carry.%0D
-banks modifying every single mortgage on their lands, to change interest rates, take down various portions of property to avoid foreclosure, adding collateral value to mortgates so debtors have more capital for their business operations.%0D
-Buyers and Sellers entering into OPTIONS to purchase, whereby the buyer makes 'layaway style' payments on the land, because they can't afford to buy it outright, or because they need to act cautiously while they wait for the market to rise again.%0D
Again, I'm very lucky and thankful to have work, even though I'm making less, and working fewer hours.
But Sue Ellen, you have that large penis!!! Amen for that brotha!\
Very interesting, spoke with a client a few months ago who was doing just that. A wealthy neighbor was going to buy her foreclosed property at auction, and she is going to rent the place from him- therefore not having to uproot her children or move, which she cannot afford. I thought it was brilliant. Her neighbor sounds like a great guy.
r85, where''d you go? sounds like you are still in the Boston area. I hope you make it back to the city if that''s where you feel at home.
I live in Las Vegas. You wouldn't know there was a recession if you went to my gym on any day between 10 a.m. and 8 p.m. You certainly wouldn't think Las Vegas was experiencing the country's highest unemployment rate if you saw the luxury cars that are on the roads in my part of town. I think this area of Las Vegas has the highest number of Mercedes per capita than anywhere else in the world.
But go into the grocery store just down the road from my house and you'll get a sense of how bad things are. I did and I'm still using that as my barometer. I remember last Thanksgiving and Christmas, walking down the aisles that would usually be crammed with shopping carts full of hams, turkeys, croutons, etc. Through the entire holiday season, I never witnessed that and never saw the crowds that used to make me avoid grocery shopping for as long as possible. Meat cases were literally overflowing with turkeys, hams and prime rib long past the holidays. During better times, stores ran out of stuff like that. Fourth of July, Labor day and Memorial day, there was plenty of meat and ribs, no sign whatsoever that demand had increased for certain products. It's that way in every grocery store I've been in. You see lots of sale signs in stores that never had sales before. The grocery stores feel empty, if you know what I mean, even when there are a few people there. It's a foreboding feeling. If people aren't buying groceries, what the hell are the eating?
A friend of mine told me, when the grocery stores are near empty and people aren't buying food, you know things are really bad.
[quote]A wealthy neighbor was going to buy her foreclosed property at auction, and she is going to rent the place from him- therefore not having to uproot her children or move, which she cannot afford. I thought it was brilliant. Her neighbor sounds like a great guy.\
Sounds like taken directly from a Simpsons episode when Ned Flanders bought the Simpson''s home and right after Marge thanked him for his kindness to let them stay she handed him a list of things that needed to be repaired.
We were in a major decline AND a recession before any of this happened (I move between two major Midwestern areas) it doesn''t mean we don''t go on, don''t buy groceries, or the things we need (and SOME of what we want). I''m frugal I love electronics but I only bought a laptop AFTER college (I had a desktop, very reasonable), I bought at used mp3 player in college, keep my cell phones (usually between free-$120) as long as possible. If you saw me out purchasing gaming systems (two) I purchased you''d have no idea I only have one main pair of shoes that I wear a year usually or that I rarely buy clothes and am very frugal the rest of the time. You have no idea what an individuals lifestyle, spending habits are just by seeing them out. The again, we''re middle class and a lot of my family/friends that are on public assistance buy more expensive clothes/goods than I do. So going out or shopping doesn''t tell the whole story.
Magazine editor here. \
Businesses are not buying ads. And the publicists are begging for "sponsorship" deals. the PR flacks for "luxury" items are especially desperate.
What are sponsorship deals? An entire issue dedicated to one product or one brand?
I grew up through a 20 year long "economic re-structuring". Basically the old economic system in my country stopped working and all the industries/tax/welfare/imports/exports/tariffs/pensions, etc had to be re-jigged to cope with the world changing. It happens. The worst thing was chronic unemployment or underemployment. But hard times don''t look like the old depression photos in a modern 1st world country.\
There are a lot of little things you don''t notice about these periods. One is the new suburbs on the edge of cities have smaller, less expensive housing than used to be built. Shops never get a new fit out, even when they change hands. The old counters and shelving etc just get re-cycled. Second-hand stores pop up and people hang onto old furniture and white goods. Lots of people take up hobbies like fishing, woodwork or gardening. The latest shiny gadgets are deemed gauche and pall of shabby gentility sweeps the land. \
It''s not like all life grinds to a halt while brain eating zombies prowl the streets.
One reporter noted that a stimulus was supposed to help all boats rise, but in the past year, only yachts have risen.
[quote] A wealthy neighbor was going to buy her foreclosed property at auction, and she is going to rent the place from him- therefore not having to uproot her children or move, which she cannot afford. I thought it was brilliant. Her neighbor sounds like a great guy.\
She''d better hope that the neighborhood is only zoned R-1 or the neighbor might not be such a great guy when he decides to tear the place down and put up a multi-unit building.
What would you expect to see, OP? There are tons of people in this country, OP, and if you live in an urban area, there will be a lot of people out regardless of their state. I think shopping is pretty much imprinted on most people. I suspect that if you could see the books of the shops, you''d see that people are looking but buying a lot less.
ok, charles dickens. books of the shops?
OP, you ain''t seen nothin'' yet.\
Wait until the latest round of money printing by the FED (QE2) hits, and prices jump by 10% in a few months.
I have noticed a very sharp uptick since October in both jobs and sales here in Chicago, but nothing like it was three years ago. Probably another false dawn. The middle class simply does not have the income to sustain a recovery.%0D
[quote]Wait until the latest round of money printing by the FED (QE2) hits, and prices jump by 10% in a few months.%0D\
a) The Fed didn''t "print" nearly enough to have that kind of impact. b) There is always a considerable lag between the time the Fed takes action and the time the economy is affected. Hint: it''s longer than "a few months." c) We''re in more danger from deflation and stagnation than we are from inflation. Hell, by most economic theories, a little inflation is just what the economy needs.
"I work in real estate law. Let me tell you, it''s sure as hell obvious to me, this recession.\
Oh please, should we have sympathy for leeches like you who latched onto and sucked off on the inflated mortgage market? You''re lucky that you made any money while you could. Any you''ll be back.
The restaurants are crowded because people can''t get into all the restaurants that are now out of business due to the horrible economy.
David Nolan dies at 66; founder of the Libertarian Party\
President Nixon''s imposition of wage and price controls led David Nolan to launch the party with a small group of friends in 1971. He ran for office several times, most recently for Senate against John McCain in Arizona.
DC here. Things are shit hot since we''re siphoning off whatever''s left of the American economy.\
(Poor, uneducated African-American residents excepted).
I''m old enough to remember lots of previous recessions, and what fascinates me about this one is how limited the damage has been to the makers of adult toys like motorcycles, boats, golf clubs, and campers. They''re hurting, no doubt about it, but they''re not filing bankruptcy in wholesale numbers like they did in the early 80''s. \
I worked for a trade magazine that covered the RV industry back then, and we literally lost our entire advertising list. Our circulation dropped something like 40% because the dealers we sent the magazine to were no longer there. It was brutal. That whole industry more or less disappeared over 18 months. I don''t see it happening to anywhere near that extent this time.\
I''ve heard that if you''re trying to sell a used motorcycle or boat right now you''re pretty much fucked, but the companies are still cranking them out.
The parking lots at the malls here on Long Island are filled. But young people have to live with their parents. There is no affordable housing for younger people here. They don''t have a history of being roommates, like people do in the city, so they don''t move out of their parents'' home until they are established in a longterm, fairly trusting romantic relationship with someone.%0D\
The downfall will come when their parents retire and can no longer support their spottily-employed kids living at home. And that day is coming as Boomers are retiring or simply losing their jobs because they are hitting their 50s and employers don''t want to be burdened with their health care costs or paying into pensions. There is a move afoot right now to somehow get rid of state employee pensions because it''s "too expensive." As if a bunch of retired people will simply sit around and say, "Woe is me," when their pensions get cut.
OP, I think it''s merely a question of overpopulation. There are still a great many people showing signs of conspicuous consumption while there are millions who have nothing, a great percentage of whom used to have jobs and were to a degree consumers as well.\
The population of the US has grown by roughly a third in the last half century.
Per r112, I think a lot of people are in denial -- instead of cutting back, they''re using their credit cards more & just paying the minimum.
OP - two things going on:\
1) Boston didn''t get hit as brutally hard as many other cities\
2) If you are a working person with an employer (i.e. not self-employed), and living primarily off income (not investments) -- then this recession either clobbered you via job termination, or it left you pretty much unaffected in the direct sense (same job, same income). Many people didn''t lose their jobs and didn''t see their income go down.
You seem rather isolated, OP.
r110, companies are still making shipping tankers and yachts, but they are resting in sea-bound Limbo: no international shipping; and no yacht basins.%0D\
A reckoning will come.
r111, you described my situation exactly. If I dont find another job by the end of this year Im going to move back home with my parents and my older brother who stays there. And he has TWO jobs. The alternative is presenting my hole whenever I can to find a daddy to take of me for a while. We''ll see how this turns out.
22 & 2 hot, looking for sugar daddy and possibly a BF
The house next door to us is currently housing three families -- all day and night, the residents come and go to the little jobs they all have. It''s not a very big house, and the owner lives in the back in an illegal house he built for himself, so they make the kids stay in the yard so much, all the grass has worn away.\
I don''t know what the kids will do when they get older...
Here in DC, a number of restaurants have closed - and there is more vacant retail space in some excellent locations (Georgetown, K street) than I recall seeing in several yrs.
Here in an upscale suburb of Chicago I see businesses going under, unable to pay their vendors, their rents, and their employees. Many of these are (or were) popular establishments. Some of these are locally owned, others are franchises or chains.
It''s obvious to me. I got laid off two months ago. My job is definitely one that "won''t be coming back". I know a lot of other laid off workers. Seems like we''re all 40 and over. \
There are also two houses on my street that went into foreclosure since 2008. Three more have been on the market 6 or more months. One has cut its asking price by about 40% over the last year, still no offers. SCARY. If we tried to sell now we would lose money. We''re in a lower-middle-class area of century-old homes before some moron comes on to screech about McMansions.\
And like others, I see businesses going under and vacant storefronts everywhere.\
I suppose if you live in a rarefied bubble or you''re just willfully blind you can tell yourself you don''t see signs of the bad economy, but a lot of us don''t have that luxury.
I went to the dry cleaners today and brought my old hangars to recycle. I happened to ask him how much hangars cost and he said this coming Monday the cost of a box of hangars will go from $34.00 to almost $50.00.%0D\
He said he bought 100 boxes.%0D\
All of this talk about higher sales may be reflecting individuals/businesses stocking up before price increases. Inflatation is here big time beyond what we pay at the pump and buy at the grccery store.%0D\
This is just a heads up. It''s going to be a tough year in my opinion.
We''re going to experience an artificial bubble for the warmer months, as people get hired in landscaping, amusement, etc. Of course everyone''s going to take credit for the "sudden recovery".
Here in Portland Oregon there are empty store fronts and houses everywhere. Especially just outside of the city limits. The close in Suburbs that I pass through are getting worse all the time. Restaurants and shopping malls have near empty parking lots every time I pass by. In the city the stores seem busy and some of the restaurants look busier but they close or change hands frequently. Sales in my own store are down, but not as bad as last year. We started selling lots of cheap products that wouldn''t have sold enough to be bothered with a few years ago, they now pay for most of my shop rent five bucks at a time.
[quote]Inflatation is here\
Then why won''t my salary inflate as well?
2% raise this year
I posted in another thread how I''d visited someone in Celebration, Florida the former Disney town (Disney sold it). There were lots of empty storefronts and the movie theater was closed down. The person I visited bought his place at the top of the housing bubble. It would go for 60% of that now. He says the "perfect community" has plenty of owners holding the bag, so they are renting to lowlife trash just to get a percentage of the mortgage money they owe.%0D\
So much for the perfect, planned, all-American community.
I''m making 140k a year working for myself. Three years ago I was making 50k working for someone else. The key is to go off on your own.
R128, what do you do?
Anyone who was around in the 80s will tell you that the malls will continue to be packed. It''s the big ticket stuff items that will hurt - houses, cars, etc. People will still spend money on smaller luxuries.%0D\
There will certainly be a rise in the homeless population and you will without a doubt hear sad stories of people who are out of work, but 90% of the country is still working and while no one is getting rich, they aren''t starving either.%0D\
You just won''t see people going nuts buying McMansions or Bentleys. They''ll still buy items under $1000 though - TVs, jewelry, and the like.
Oddest trend (because I''ve seen it more than five times): groups of three or more with one cart in a grocery store. The entire group crowds around whatever purchase decision must be made.\
I think this is the new ''Let''s go to the Mall!'' activity.
No, they''ve all been white. I don''t stare at non-white people
R30, I disagree. I was around in the 80''s. This time, it is not going to be a shared experience. The banker/elite will be buying Bentleys and McMansions. A few will get by living large but not that large. The vast majority will struggle to make ends meet with no luxuries. And the unfortunate will be living in their cars (if they have one) or under a bridge.%0D\
This is not the 80s''. We''ve just witnessed the biggest transfer of public wealth to the banker elite in history. The government has handed the bankers all of our money and we''re holding the bag.%0D\
I just wish we''d collectively come to some epiphany to realize we''ve been screwed and not in a good way.
I live outside of Boston, and approaching 99 weeks of being unemployed. I haven''t bought any clothes, or any luxuries whatsoever in almost two years. Just groceries, gas for the car, and a cheap laptop when my old laptop died. I''ve applied to hundreds of jobs... most often, I''m "over-qualified", the rest of the time, I''m not-qualified. I had no idea "qualified" was such a finite point of experience and knowledge.%0D\
You won''t see me at the mall. Well, maybe to buy a card or something.
Jesus R133 - I''ve been waiting for you to show up. You can''t find ANY job in two years? Really? Nothing?%0D\
Or you just can''t find a job you like?%0D\
''Cuz I''m in a job I fucking hate but I suck it up. And I''m sick of paying for the likes of you to sit at home on your ass applying for "hundreds of jobs". If you''ve applied for hundreds of jobs and still don''t have one, then you''re clearly doing something wrong.%0D\
Sorry to sound like an asshole but know I think of you every Monday when I''m driving 48 miles each way to a job I despise. I would really like to know your story.
R134, what in heaven''s name will you do now that gas is going up to $6 a gallon?\
Assuming 24mpg, that''s $120 out of your check per week!
I''ll bet R133 is doing nothing wrong.%0D\
I''ll bet R133 is middle-aged.%0D\
That''s why no one hires.%0D\
Nobody wants to carry insurance on a middle-aged person, or have to give them a pension. Much better to hire younger people for little money and no benefits who don''t know any better. Middle-aged people might hurt themselves at work so they can get worker''s comp and disability.%0D\
The word is out -- middle-aged personnel layoffs. Don''t hire any middle-aged people. They will tell young workers that they used to get benefits like sick pay.
[quote]Sorry to sound like an asshole\
If this were true you wouldn''t do it with such glee.\
[quote]I would really like to know your story.\
No you wouldn''t, you''d like ammunition to berate him for being unemployed.
Most of my family live in Westchester county, New York. The arrogant fucks that they are think nothing is wrong and if ur down and out it''s your fault. \
And yes they are Republicans.
Malls will always be full. It''s a place you can go for free and not have to spend any money if you don''t want. Yeah, the Apple store is always full. And it''s usually people checking their email, Facebook or Twitter. I''d love to know the percentage of people in the store actually buying stuff.
"or have to give them a pension. "\
A pension? Where are you posting from, 1962?
No, R137, I want to understand. C''mon already, not even a job just to pay the bills in two years?%0D\
I''ve always been a bleeding heart liberal, but I think some people are taking advantage of the system and collecting just because they can, which is wrong. I lost my job in January of last year, and I found this job for $20K less and a shitty company with crap benefits - but it was a job and I took it.%0D\
I could''ve collected. Maybe I''m just bitter.%0D\
And yes R135, the price of gas is killing us too.
OP, I think the worst is still to come. Interest rates are rising, which will make servicing debt even more expensive, and prevent many businesses from refinancing or rolling over debt. As these marginally profitable businesses go under, nothing will come to replace them, and the signs of economic distress will become more obvious.\
When the US government defaults on the debt, and the FED can''t bail them out with more freshly printed green toilet paper, then you will see the abyss.
You are crazy OP.
I''m sure millions of people have been unemployed for an extended period of time just to piss you off, r134/141. \
If you''re so stupid as to fall for this divide and conquer bullshit you''re being fed, you deserve a miserable job.
[quote]I''ve always been a bleeding heart liberal, but I think some people are taking advantage of the system and collecting just because they can\
Yes, because unemployment pays so well, and being without the burden of health insurance is so freeing, and let''s not even talk about the social caché.\
R141 is a freeping moron.
R139, Apple is still reporting record profits. iPad sales are through the roof.
At my office, I feed some of the stray cats some dry food. My boss always says, the squirrels are eating the food and they don''t need to. She wants me to stop.%0D\
Yeah, so some people maybe taking advantage of the unemployment situation. I''m okay with that because I believe most people do not and they need the money to survive.%0D\
Again, my opinion, but I think TPB want us to go at each other so they can continue stealing all of our dollars.%0D\
Those right wing crackpots are so busy getting into everyone''s business they don''t realize big business is reap the rewards of a divided country. If we all united against Wall St. and big business maybe we would be a true capitalistic country. Right now we definitely are not. The rules are stacked against everyone except those pulling the strings.
r147: You can fuck off with comparing the unemployed to stray animals. \
R141: Yeah, just like you, people take jobs when the jobs are offered.
Sorry if the analogy offended. I was trying to say that if when giving assistance some take that don''t need it doesn''t mean all assistance should be ended.
[quote]Those right wing crackpots are so busy getting into everyone's business they don't realize big business is reap the rewards of a divided country. If we all united against Wall St. and big business maybe we would be a true capitalistic country. Right now we definitely are not. The rules are stacked against everyone except those pulling the strings.
100% correct, R149
The Dems are just as in bed with Wall Street and the Military Industrial Complex as the GOP is. Both sides support policies that make innovation and entrepreneurship difficult to achieve by using regulations that favor the big businesses that support them, their policies and their party. They print counterfeit money causing inflation to rise and savings to dwindle, and use the blank check to start international wars that cost trillions and make the world more, not less, dangerous.
Until we withdraw support and consent from- and reduce the size, scope and power of- the Federal Government, and subsequently return those functions to a more local/regional and therefore responsive and responsible local government then our misery will continue to grow.
R149: It''s not assistance, it''s insurance. Look at your pay stub where it is taken out of your pay.
R151, unemployment is paid by the employer. It does not cone at of your check. At least not in California. Disability insurance is paid by workers. With high unemployment, most states have been borrowing from the federal government and now owe billions and billions of dollars. These payments are due to begin in a few months which is going to further strain state budgets.
R152, you inadvertently bring up a point I talked about in R150- the unemployment tax, and SS tax that the employer pays 1/2 of, are money that could be paid to a worker if SS and insurance were options. First of all, self-employed people pay BOTH, increasing the burden of entrepreneurship. Plus, if they were options, younger people would choose the boost in pay, older people would opt for unemployment and retirement. The benefit of options are clear.
The Internal Revenue Service tracks the tax returns with the 400 highest adjusted gross incomes each year. The average income on those returns in 2007, the latest year for IRS data, was nearly $345 million. Their average federal income tax rate was 17 percent, down from 26 percent in 1992.%0D\
Can you imagine what the percentage is now???
This old thread is useful- look at gas, coffee, wheat, cotton, beef, etc. price jumps over the last 6 months.\
Inflation is just going to get much worse this summer.
$50 says Richard has never been to Roslindale.%0D
I wish the OP of this thread from over 2 years ago would comment.
How many more vacant shops do you see? How much higher are gas prices? How many more friends and family are un/underemployed? How much higher is your monthly grocery/electricity/water bill?
The FED is printing money, and so some businesses are picking up, but inflation is even higher. What happens when they quit printing?
Is it becoming more obvious, OP?
When this thread was created, I'd been unemployed for 9 months. It would be two more months before I would start a new job. I'm doing much better than 2010, and truth be told, better than I've ever done even before that. President Obama is pretty awesome.
Good for you, R159!
I am really glad you have a job. But, I look at how self selected Datalounge is today (if you lose your job, the $18 to DL goes first) and how slow it is posts per minute and wonder if the majority are really represented.
The unemployment data, when adjusted to 1920s criteria, is almost as bad, and in some cases worse. People are living on credit, part time jobs, and hopium. Look at the world around you, R159!
It's about age.
I was laid off in January 2009 from my IT job. I was making 100K+ and was 53 years old.
After 28 years in the industry...nothing.
Last year I got a couple of calls from some headhunters.
Anyway, I ended up working for my partner at a base pay of about 1/3 of my previous salary.
Believe it or not, I'm getting along just fine.
This year has been good for me so far. The previous two were awful.
I work with people who have had employment for the past few years and one thing that I notice is that they are generally unaware of how bad it has been out there. Some keep complaining about their jobs saying how it's time to quit and find something better. I'm thinking, really?!
Nobody cares about you r159!
Hookers in colombia fucking the security guards and not getting their cash is more important!
So stop saying things are improving!
After ten years of failure the private economy began to revive last fall, so the Republicans have moved to choke it with higher oil prices, higher interest rates, and a capital strike in order to get rid of Obama. It's not that Obama did anything particular to help it, although his stimulus packages did avoid a desperate retraction. It's just that the normal state of the economy is growing and it is all the misinvestment, outsourcing, currency games, and other issues whose shock had to wear off on the public. And it took ten years.
R164, your grasp on reality is tenuous, at best.
Placing blame where blame is due is great, but blaming it on the Republicans in congress (as if they control the entire economy...they just wish)Is foolish- you have to look at the whole picture.
Every politician is in on "The Game" and denying that just makes you a "useful idiot".
[quote] work with people who have had employment for the past few years and one thing that I notice is that they are generally unaware of how bad it has been out there. Some keep complaining about their jobs saying how it's time to quit and find something better
Is this not amazing?
I have a friend who keeps doing this. I have been unemployed for years. My friend is making a good six figure salary, has great benefits, a pension plan from a prestigious university, a short commute, etc. And she keeps telling me her job is boring and she needs to do something else. She wants to quit her job and look around for a new one.
She is going to be 50 this year. I have told her that 50 is the Bad Age. It's when you become obsolete. Quit your job and you'll never find another one. Especially in her field -- women's health! Can you imagine someone thinking it would be ok to quit her job in women's health -- at the same time the GOP has geared up to DESTROY funding for women's health?
Yeah, I get that she is bored with tits and twats all day long, but for God's sake, it's not a taxing job. I destroyed my health working in grueling nursing jobs and then I couldn't find work. And she wants to quit a job with good pay, bennies, pension, 10 minute commute, minimal physical exertion and a 10 hour, 4 day work week during a major jobless recession when women's health funding has been targeted for extinction by one of the country's two political parties?
Some people just don't. get. it.
Lots of people committing suicide, op
Chung Ho come from North Korea and the economy is bad there. It is great in American. Americans are spoiled. Chung Ho works two jobs and has car and place to live. He has big library to learn English and 15 TV channels and radio. Americans go to the bitch and bitch when they can't have electric toys to watch Internet with. Chung Ho is lucky to work and live in free country. American and Canadas are spoiled and want things. They lazy and won't work to get them. Do not cry for things. Get freedom you have it all
Poor Chung -- as soon as he learns English and gets some savvy, he'll be laid off and replaced by a more recent immigrant with few language skills and no savvy who won't ask for a raise or question the boss.
Ignore the Chung/chutney troll. It will go away eventually.
There are 8 mostly apartment projects on my street 14th St., in DC. 14 restaurants are in the works. Cranes are everywhere. It is insane.
I agree with OP and have had the same WTF feeling every time I pass by an Apple store---always packed to the gills. I'm 50 and my friends are all around the same age. All working professionals and no one has been impacted that I know of. I'm in the northeast.
[quote]if they were options, younger people would choose the boost in pay, older people would opt for unemployment and retirement. The benefit of options are clear.
No they're not r153. This is the republican 'free market' mantra but the intent is to kill both programs. These facile libertarian approaches never work.
'Older people would opt for unemployment and retirement'? But there would be no funds, because all the young people would opt out.
Visual effects is a booming business. Big-budget movies such as "Avatar," "Transformers: Dark of the Moon" and "Tron: Legacy" can spend as much as $50 million on computer graphics that drive the action — and ticket sales.
But the artists who create the effects, crouched over computers using software to create digital images, complain they're often employed in electronic sweatshops, work inhuman schedules and without health insurance or pensions.
From a guy living in the DC area (not in DC proper), who actually is a government statistician:
"What is the BEST economic statistic I've ever seen? Walk around with your eyes open. I used to note that when more crap is hauled off to the side of the road to be sold, it was a pretty good indicator that things were getting bad. People were dumping their toys (at a loss) for a reason; most likely they were nervous about losing a job, medical bills, whatever.
Similarly how long it takes to find a parking space at the mall, or how long you have to wait for a table in a sclock mall restaurant are also pretty good indicators (not there's a hard and fast index per se... it's really just noting that it's 'different').
The last two days, mall parking lots have been nearly ghost-towns. Restaurants at 6:30 have several tables open, with wait-staff sitting around. I've also noted not a small number of boats, jet-skis, pickup trucks with 'for sale' signs on them. I suspect the economy is in for a rough summer, folks."
No one goes to malls anymore R175. Ever heard of on-line shopping?
Here in DC, the economy is thriving. As an earlier poster stated, there are new apartment buildings and restaurants going up on 14th Street. That is in addition to "City Center" which will be a huge multi-use project, a new Marriott for the convention center, the new "O Street Market", and that is all in just a 7-block radius. Real estate is booming right now (lack of inventory). We have friends that are buying row homes, renovating them, and splitting $100K profit for just a week on the market.
I may live in a bubble, but I'm not going to complain...
Republicans are going to kill your bubble R177, one way or the other, the country can't afford it.
r178, as far as DC is concerned, Republicans will boost, not burst, the bubble.
The Citizens United ruling means there's a huge incentive to start up astroturf lobbying groups. All those overpaid consultants on K street are in the private sector so the republicans are quite happy with them.
I was just having this conversation with a friend.
Everyone we know has been doing just fine.
We have a few friends who lost their jobs, but they found new ones almost right away.
We have friends and relatives who have bought new homes, remodeled their kitchens, bought new cars, gone on vacations, thrown weddings, etc.
None of them are very wealthy, but they are all just fine.
The thing is, they are all middle class to upper middle class and they are all well educated.
Furthermore, I have no grasp of their savings or their retirement arrangements.
I think this economy is immediately affecting the working poor, the lower middle class and people who are just at retirement age who have seen their investments evaporate.
But I suspect that a lot of younger, employed people are being frivolous. They have seen the retirement plans of their parents or grandparents disappear, so they think "what's the point?" Just a hunch and I hope I am wrong.
It's different in different areas of the country.
It's a lot worse in, say, Detroit than it is in, say, Austin (to mention one of the hardest hit cities, and one of the least hit cities, in the nation)
I don't think you're wrong, R180. The son of a friend wonders why he should save money or put anything in a 401(k) because the banksters are going to rip it off anyway. It's hard to argue with the truth.
I think the corporate media tends to downplay good news and magnify bad news re: the economy because the owners all seem to hate obama. It's especially blatant if you listen to AM radio.
The state of the economy can be very localized. A lot of people will say the New York City is doing just fine. Well, if you base that on the multi-million dollar properties being sold in Manhattan, of course things seem great.
I live in an outer borough and the real estate situation of my street seems poor. I'm sandwiched between two empty houses, one that was empty for years and finally foreclosed, yet it does not seem as if the bank is trying to sell it, and another one that's empty because most of the family living there has moved away. One of the family members lives down the street, but I'm not sure if they intend to sell or have someone move back. Another foreclosed house was bought and renovated by some government-backed program two years ago. It still remains empty; I'm not sure if it's good because they're vetting applicants or bad because they can't find anyone worthy of buying the house. Two more houses have been on the market since last year. I'm sure similar situations can be found in other working/lower-middle class neighborhoods in other boroughs and some suburbs.
Also, there has been increased hiring, but NYC's unemployment rate is still higher than the national average (maybe a bigger percentage of these new hires live in the suburbs).
I also think part of it is that even when things improve the benefits tend to accrue to the top. So as the economy grows, instead of JFK's 'rising tide lifts all boats', Ann Romney gets another horse and cadillac.
My family live in heavily industrialized northern Ohio. So many jobs were dependent on manufacturing and they're all gone now. The steel mills closed down and then other plants gradually followed them.
I think you would be shot if you tried to tell the people in that area they're doing just fine.
R183, for ten years they've been underplaying how bad the economy is (in many ways, worse than in the 1930s). So suddenly they discover things are bad just when things are getting better to try to hurt Obama. Well, who would have expected anything different. Nonetheless, Obama would have to be a brain dead idiot to run on how great the economy is when a quarter of the people in this country required food aid last year, something that clearly never happened at any time in the 1930s.
The collapse will not be televised. Ignored and alone, each of us will experience it singly. As blemish and accusation, you will be photoshopped from the American Dream group portrait. The lower you slip, the more invisible you will become. The disconnect between what's real and what's broadcast will become even more obscene by the day. – Lihn Dihn
Of course DC is booming- its the capital of The Empire. All the monopoly money they've printed in the last 5 years to keep their charade convincing is going to fund pet projects for their donors at below-market costs. It bankrupts the taxpayers but provides a nice return for the owners and their pet politicians.
Out in the real world the results of 40 years of non-stop counterfeiting by the Feds has resulted in a dying society. When the people of the world wake up one day and decide that dollar bills are just worthless pieces of paper (which is, fundamentally true) and refuse to sell us anything, the vermin and coprophages that inhabit DC (and London, and Bruxelles, and Beijing) will scatter to St Barths while the rest of us watch all of our earnings disappear.
We don't have the kind of society (except in small town USA) that will survive that kind of "reversal of fortune" without calling for the criminals to that did it to them to now come save them. The parasites of Mordor on the Potomac will
-craft laws and pass resolutions to "fix the problem, and stop the troublemakers" which means that anyone that points out badly the government has managed the economy you will probably be "rendered" to Gitmo- or just killed in cold blood under the provisions of the NDAA.
-Whistleblowers will be imprisoned,
-travel will be further restricted, -
the propaganda machine will parrot the press release from the White House or Pentagon or Fed,
-and things will get even worse for the average person- just not bad enough that they openly revolt.
People will tolerate a LOT if it comes slowly. We are already conditioned to accept their authority, right or wrong.
Think about it- can you imagine 12 years ago, before the "War of Terror", that our civil liberties were respected worldwide, and now we rank just above North Korea and China when it comes to dissidents and freedom from propaganda (and if you don't think MSNBCNNPR - or worse, FOX- are propaganda...) but we all go along with it.
Adjusted for inflation the stock market is lower than it was in 1999, before the bull run of the 00s.
To say we are out of this Depression (recession lost meaning 2 years ago) is ludicrous.
The stock market, housing and manufacturing biz is starting to heat up (in places like DC, NYC and Cali) where a lot of the money Bernanke created over the last few years is starting to fund the next boom. This boom will be far shorter than the 00s (why do we still have no name- the aughts?) but the next leg down will just be the natural reaction of an economy that has too much debt to service and can only be fixed by "deleveraging" and "renegotiation".
The current boom won't pick up the average person, because it will be shorter and therefore the "trickle down" effect will be negligible for many on the lower end of the economic spectrum. But the elites will get even richer while it goes on.
Obama and Romeny are both pledged, heart and soul, to the Banksters. Therefore, despite any superficial differences in policy, they are the same person.
(from another thread)
There never was much of a 'trickle down' effect. Ever. Reaganomics created this mess, and it's a total failure and a lie.
It's all relative.
I'm a 15 year paralegal, running large scale projects at this point, with more experience than any of the lawyers I work for.
My billing rate is $300 per hour. But I actually make $50 per hour from my firm.
While I'm happy to have a job, and I'm happy I really buckled down and became an expert at my job, so that I'd be indispensible, I can't help but look at these numbers and be reminded that I'm being ripped off every hour that I work. My firm and its partners do not need a 600% markup on my services.
In a better economy, these greedy fucks might be a touch less so. In a better system altogether, I'd be making more, and charging less.
For those of us who lost jobs, it's pretty obvious.
I spent 14 months out of work. I'm in my early 50s and I feel like my life is slowly circling the drain. 8 years ago I was making almost 100k a year, owned a beautiful new house, was able to go on vacation, buy things and then the job got sent overseas. I sold the house, relocated and downsized.
I was never able to find anything that paid as much as I was making a decade ago. The job I lost was paying 40k a year and I was happy to have it.
After 14 months of being out of work, I landed a temp to perm job that was pretty much the same job description as the one I lost. This job pays 25k a year. I'm happy to have a job, but with so many people out of work, employers are dropping salaries because they know they can find people who will take it, because a job is better than no job.
I'm making enough to pay for my basic needs. I'm no spending money on anything other than food and shelter and I don't expect things will improve. I suspect the slow decline into poverty will continue since nobody want to hire any body my age. I just hope I can hang on until I retire and pray there will be social security when I do.
Meanwhile, I've watch other friends totally oblivious to what is going on because it hasn't hit them personally.
Everything is stolen and sold cheaply part of the time so the thieves appear more altruistic.
The top 5-10% are pretty isolated and insulated from the real world of suffering out there.
Perception is not reality.
R193, in a society that was advancing (the way the US was until the 70s) then the cost of your basic needs would drop each month relative to your paycheck. Over the decades, the things that cost 1/100th of your paycheck in your 20s would cost 1/500th by your retirement.
However, the government gets to print money each year, under the guise of "building the economy" and they have instead made it profitable to move manufacturing to Asia, raise the cost of oil (via the incessant wars and black ops in the MidEast) and at the same time convince citizens that it's all for their own good!
For 100 years we've let this small cabal of banks control our government and the result has been catastrophic for the middle and lower classes, wonderful for the upper classes and a magnificent boon for the top .01% that run the Big Corps/Banks.
If only there was a presidential candidate that explicitly said what I just wrote...
In reality you have to be a bit of a socialite with generous family and friends. Connections help us do things and the need to survive sometimes makes us shore up our self-confidence. Often SOMEONE needs staff. I myself have worked about five different jobs.
Te PEW Foundation claims that illegal immigration from Mexico has virtually stopped, meaning there aren't even crumbs for the pigeons...
The guy at the link explains -on MSNBC, to the morons work on screen at MSNBC and to the viewers that think MSNBC is anything but a propaganda outlet- why we are fucked.
If they raise interest rates, even slightly, the economy collapses.
Now that inflation is heating up fast, that is the only choice, so we are fucked.
Is it obvious yet, OP?
I'll bet that you still think that the EU is okay, China will never crash, and that the US is doing just fine.
Boston missed the housing bubble.
Some gays have not been affected by this much but many have..many more than will easily admit. No one is going to readily admit that they are struggling and living on Top Ramen every day. A lot of people live in a "bubble". They only see what they want to see too as far as what is happening to America. Reality is not pretty many times. Many previously Middle Class gays have fallen into poverty, lost their homes, have no jobs these days...and no prospects for this to get better. Truly sad what has happened to America in the last 12 years. Remember the Clinton years? Close to full employment, no wars...ah...seems like a lifetime ago.
I've been very fortunate. Steady, well paying job, home value remained flat to slightly higher and my retirement savings has recovered.
I thank my lucky stars on this. The whole Econ meltdown has so far, passed over me.
R204, unless you have some hard assets then your "salad days" are going to end sooner than you think.
If you think the stock and bond markets (which have lost mega-money over the last few years when indexed for inflation) are safe then you haven't looked at the details.
Is it obvious yet, OP?
[quote] " Over the weekend, I tried to get a parking space at the mall...."
[quote]Now that inflation is heating up fast, that is the only choice, so we are fucked.
Well, except for the undeniable fact that inflation is not "heating up fast." Like all of your predictions, this one, too, is dead wrong. You said this last year, too, a couple of times, and earlier this year, and each time, your prediction was false. It's false this time, as well.
[quote]For 100 years we've let this small cabal of banks control our government and the result has been catastrophic for the middle and lower classes
Well, no, actually, that's not true, like pretty much everything else you write. The middle and lower classes did quite well until the 1970s. It wasn't until we hit massive deregulation that income inequality started taking off and recessions and crises started getting more severe.
[quote]If only there was a presidential candidate that explicitly said what I just wrote...
ROFL.... There was, and since he's a total nutcase and has been consistently wrong for over three decades, he got nowhere, thankfully.
I've lost everything
I have no money but I still go out about once a month or every six weeks. No place expensive...apparently rich people always have the money to go to those places.
This recession is different from the 80s one. That one people were really suffering.
The only people that got hurt were the ones that lost their jobs and were overextended.
If you kept your job, it didn't matte if you were overextended and if you lost your job but were not overextended you were fine.
In NYC and Chicago the middle class didn't suffer much, nor in most areas.
It was the pseudo-middle class, those trying to get up into it and pretending they were middle class.
Most "middle class" people who define themselves that way are really working class or lower class and don't realize it.
You can look in neighborhoods like Chicago where the average salary is going to be $50,000 and rents are over $1,200 and nothing changed since 2007.
You go to poor neighborhoods, like shops up and down Milwaukee Avenue in Chicago and see all of them shuttered.
It was really the lower classes that got hit hard by this.
Many people who always considered themselves middle class...weren't. American's like to pretend they are doing much better then they are. Then they lose their big house, then they have to tell their kids, I can afford $150 dollar sneakers. Sneakers that were made by children in China. We live in a sick society.
Is it obvious yet, OP?
Reds brand frozen burritios and quesadillas are surprisingly good:) I am unemployed btw. Between unemployment check, subpayment from my union and savings and credit cards I'm doing okay. I spend money, just bought this IPad2 as a birthday present for myself, but I am conservative with my spending. I make coffee at home, have my local newspaper delivered online at a discount, have cancelled some premium cable channels, canceled AOL account and satellite radio. I use Netflix instead of ordering PPV movies. I paid down all my credit cards and only use the one with the lowest credit line. I worship Amazon.com. Rock bottom prices and free shipping allow me to buy a book or dvd or cd without feeling like I am being frivolous and irresponsible and headed for the gutter. And it's possible to go out for a burger and a beer without going broke. I don't see how sitting at home and worrying is going to help. I think a lot of people are in similar circumstances and coping just fine.I have hope that things will get better.
You bumped half a dozen two-month-old threads why, exactly, R215?
because the economy is turning around!
Housing is up, employment is up, things are looking good.
Two month old thread? No, this was posted two years ago.
My apartment is $900.00 dollars a month in Jersey, but my Hermes' handbags are 10 grand
What r193 and others like him still applies. Just because those left in the middle class are feeling better doesn't mean the economy as a whole is getting better.
I bumped a thread from 2 years ago to show that your ignorance of economics is slightly worse than my dogs.
I've troll-dar'd you, and you have predicted that all the government spending and bailout schemes would work.
You are utterly ignorant of economics, so why do you bother?
[quote]I bumped a thread from 2 years ago to show that your ignorance of economics is slightly worse than my dogs.
ROFL.... Coming from you, with your track record, I take that as a compliment.
[quote]I've troll-dar'd you, and you have predicted that all the government spending and bailout schemes would work.
And yet, I didn't post on this thread until R217 and you are unable to point to a single post of mine on any thread where I make the claim that "all the government spending and bailout schemes would work." Care to explain why you're lying? Or why you care that much about my opinion?
[quote]You are utterly ignorant of economics, so why do you bother?
ROFL.... This, coming from the guy who confidently predicted a few years ago that hyperinflation and economic meltdown were just around the corner and that the price of gold was going to increase tenfold. And here we are, still waiting.
This always goes the same, dear. You always get your ass handed to you because you really don't have a clue and just don't know what the hell you're talking about. As to why I bother? I enjoy seeing such cluelessness on display and poking holes in it. You're hilarious, dear; the combination of arrogance coupled with abysmal ignorance is irresistible.
What we are seeing now is a repeat of what we saw in the 1980's. Granted, in the 80's we didn't see so many boarded up homes.
Real Estate in general goes in a 20 to 30 year boom/bust cycle. Everyone gets this bright idea that real estate pricing will only appreciate over time, which is far from the truth.
I recall reading a report by some economists a few years ago when the boom cycle was still ongoing. One of the things said in the report was that we would see real estate prices drop by 30% to 70%. Here in Providence, I've seen it go as high as a 90% drop.
Dead wrong, R224. Historically, over time, real estate does always appreciate. You can't buy a 4 BR home in the suburbs I grew up in for $35,000---the price my parents paid in 1970. That same house is now worth over ten times that. Yes, it has depreciated in this most recent down cycle, but it will never be $35k again.
That's because $35,000 in 1970 dollars is the same as $208,000 in 2012 dollars, r225, dear.
And there are plenty of places where you can buy a 4 BR home for that price today.
Not in a place that isn't a backwater or a slum, R226....dear.
The fact is that the SAME house in the SAME location that was $35k in 1970 is worth far more now than it was then. Thank you for proving my point in calculating what $35k would be worth in 2012 dollars--$208,000. I clearly stated that the house is now worth, even with recent depreciation, more than $350,000. So equaling out for inflation, that's still a 75% increase in value.
Saying you can by a 4 BR dump somewhere else in the country for $35k in no way proves your idiotic theory that real estate doesn't appreciate in value. You have to evaluate the same home or it's equivalent in the same community.
R222, your dogs told me that they support nationalization of the banks. I think you have some VERY SMART DOGS!
And what "bailouts" and "spending" has there been since 2010? Obama hasn't been allowed to do anything in that vein since that time.
It's obvious in Florida. No manufacturing. Low paying jobs.
If you bought gold or silver this year, you're beating the market by a mile.
The government can't print gold or silver.
[quote]If you bought gold or silver this year, you're beating the market by a mile.
No, you're not. Depending on when you bought it, you may have ended up just breaking even or have been down a bit. Funny how you don't mention that gold prices plummeted in November and December, 2011, and again in March and April. If you bought at the peaks in early November and late February, you would still be underwater at this time.
If you bought gold at the first of the year, at roughly 1550, you would have seen a steep climb in January and February followed by an equally steep drop in March and April, back below where you bought it. January was a low point, so you would indeed have made a 14% profit had you bought right at that time and hung on until now. Don't count on that continuing, though.
During that same period, beginning at the first of the year, the S&P 500 index climbed 14.6%. So much for "beating the market by a mile." Over the past 100 years, the stock market has routinely been significantly better than gold as an investment, aside from a couple of periods where gold was in a bubble, as it is today. If you're betting everything on gold, particularly today, you're an idiot.
So, once again, and as usual, you don't know what you're talking about and with every post here, you continue to confirm your abysmal ignorance.
Are you too stupid to click a link?
The chart shows that in 2012 gold and silver are the best performing assets.
If you bought in jan 2011 you're even better off. If, like me, you bought in 1999 you have seen a 500%+ return on investment.
Oh, and nationalizing the banks means giving the incompetent morons in the government that caused this mess more power. Anyone who supports that is a moron of the first order.
[quote]Are you too stupid to click a link?
ROFL.... See, moron, that's the difference between us. I don't just automatically accept whatever drivel someone posts on some website somewhere. I actually stop to think about it and then I go to check it out by actually looking for the data.
[quote]The chart shows that in 2012 gold and silver are the best performing assets.
Alas, then, that a little research, which I did for my R231 post, shows that the chart is wrong, since the numbers I cited are correct. I will note that, as usual, you can't argue with the numbers so you have to resort to the usual pathetic attack.
[quote]If you bought in jan 2011 you're even better off.
Uh-huh, and if you bought in November, 2011 or February, 2012, you wouldn't have made a penny. Did you have a point to make?
[quote]If, like me, you bought in 1999 you have seen a 500%+ return on investment.
Uh-huh, and if you hang on to that investment when the prices inevitably fall, you'll lose your shirt. Did you have a point to make? Well, other than to prove that you're a moron...
Has the economy recovered yet?
Maybe TPTB aren't as smart as we thought.
Gold 2000- $283/oz
Gold 2012- $1720/oz
Silver 2000- $5.30/oz
Silver 2012- $33.05/oz
S&P 2000- 1500
So, which of these three do you think was the better investment?
It amazes me that people can believe that printing trillions of dollars to give to the big banks will improve the economy. How many times do you have to be wrong before you face reality?
Gold and silver may reflect the shadow inflation also dogging us.
R235, you really should stop posting here since you get your ass kicked every single time, mostly because you don't have the foggiest idea what you're talking about.
To refresh your memory, you specifically said that: "If you bought gold or silver this year, you're beating the market by a mile."
Of course, out here in the real world, that's not true, since gold is down a bit in the past year. And, as you can see from the linked chart, it's been highly volatile, bouncing around all over the place, and really is a bad investment, particularly if you look at the inflation-adjusted price of gold and realize that we're in a classic bubble.
As for your silliness about the long-term investment value of gold, that only works if you choose that specific time period (or the other 12-year period when gold last was in a bubble in the 70s and 80s). Over the long haul, the stock market has beaten gold overwhelmingly. And when the bubble pops, as it inevitably will, you'll face the same fate as those others who believed that "Gold is a great investment! It always goes up! You can't lose!" And, in your case, "Gold prices are going to climb ten-fold!"
You are an idiot; you've always been an idiot; you'll always be an idiot. And you'll always be wrong, just as you have been over and over again in this thread.
People like R237 scare me.
When adjusted for inflation, wages are at 1969 levels, while gold is (non-inflation adjusted) up 5,000%.
Get help, dude. If printing money created wealth then why isn't our entire economy based on making printers?
Do basic economics (like scarcity, velocity, trust) escape your simple, possibly retarded, mind? Anyone who looks at the returns on gold (and silver, to a lesser extent) in constant, inflation adjusted dollars over the last 100 years can see through your ignorant bullshit.
[quote]People like R237 scare me.
Well, that's because I actually know what I'm talking about, which is why you get your ass kicked in every single one of these threads.
[quote]When adjusted for inflation, wages are at 1969 levels, while gold is (non-inflation adjusted) up 5,000%.
Of course if you cherry pick your dates and compare apples to oranges, you can make just about any investment look good. Why didn't you pick, say, 1979 instead of 1969? Or use inflation-adjusted gold prices so that you'd have an apples-to-apples comparison? Because if you had picked the latter date and adjusted for inflation, gold would be *down*, not "up 5,000%".
Stocks, on the other hand, over that same range, or even from 1969 on, would be massively up.
[quote]Get help, dude.
Right back at you, moron. At least I know what I'm talking about.
[quote]If printing money created wealth then why isn't our entire economy based on making printers?
Sigh.... Nobody is claiming that "printing money create[s] wealth," idiot. What we are pointing out is that all of your confident predictions about the economy, about gold prices, about economic meltdown, about hyperinflation, about the Federal Reserve, and so on, are false. Basically, you don't have the foggiest idea what you're talking about, which you make clear with every post here.
[quote]Do basic economics (like scarcity, velocity, trust) escape your simple, possibly retarded, mind?
ROFL.... Oh, the irony....
[quote]Anyone who looks at the returns on gold (and silver, to a lesser extent) in constant, inflation adjusted dollars over the last 100 years can see through your ignorant bullshit.
Actually, the return on gold investments over the past 100 years has been pretty dreadful, aside from the two bubbles, the first in the late 70s and early 80s, and the second today. Over that same 100 years, the stock market has vastly outperformed gold. Once again, here's the chart that you just cannot handle and have never addressed.
I don't think my place will ever appreciate in value and I've owned it for years,
[quote]So is investment in gold a bad thing?
Like most other investments, it depends. If you get lucky enough to catch it as it's running up to a bubble and sell it at the peak, you can make a lot of money. But nobody can predict when a bubble will start or when it will pop, so you can just as easily lose a lot of money.
Right now, anyway, gold is almost certainly a rotten investment, since its price is at an inflation-adjusted high and it's pretty clear that we're in a bubble. I can't predict when the bubble will pop, though. What I expect to happen is that gold will continue to bounce around a bit, just as it has over the past year, and that at some point people will start dumping their gold and the price will drop pretty dramatically.
One caveat: if we see the economy entering a second recession due to problems in Europe or other factors, then gold could easily continue to climb for another couple of years.
One more point to consider: if you let the advice of an anonymous user on the Internet influence your investment decisions, you're not being very smart. Do your own research and reach your own conclusions.
I LOVELOVELOVE the epic break with reality block quote poster!
She has posted at R237/239/242
Her similar posts on other threads are just as priceless in their ignorance and economic confusion.
Such a fundamental inability to grasp basic economics requires a PhD! Bravo!
Since most people only know reality based economics, let me explain. Since 2008 the Federal Reserve has purchased all long term debt. They sell all of their short term (1-3yr) debt while purchasing ALL of the long term (10-30yr) debt which has allowed them to keep interest rates low. They have very little short term debt left, and soon they will be unable to monetize without the market (that "invisible handed beast") forcing interest rates higher.
(as an aside, the charter for the Federal Reserve forbids outright purchases, so the TBTF banks get to buy the debt and sell it at a profit right back to the Federal Reserve. How goddamn convenient!)
Once they run out of short term debt, they will lose any ability to affect the interest rates, and they will go higher than the moon. The only reason the debt they have monetized (4 Trillion and counting) is not causing inflation is because they decided (for the first time in history) to pay interest to the TBTF banks to keep it from getting to "the little people". As interest rates rise, these banks will be forced to either A) loan it out, or B) go bankrupt.
Those loans...well, it won't be pretty. They have "contained" inflation for nearly 5 years, but at the cost of a much bigger disaster in the future.
Those interested can start here.
Moron, posting the same post on multiple threads doesn't make the post any more accurate.
[quote]I LOVELOVELOVE the epic break with reality block quote poster!
ROFL.... Trust me, the feeling is mutual, particularly since I've been able to back up everything I've written and you haven't been able to back up a single assertion of yours, mostly because they're all false. Do let us know when gold prices increase tenfold, won't you?
[quote]You're good! Krugman would be proud.
This is basic Econ 101 and basic finance, idiot. It doesn't take a doctorate; just someone willing to face reality.
[quote]Her similar posts on other threads are just as priceless in their ignorance and economic confusion.
ROFLMAO.... Oh, the irony....
[quote]Such a fundamental inability to grasp basic economics requires a PhD! Bravo!
Dear heart, were you planning to get to the point anytime soon? I've had better insults on an elementary school playground.
[quote]Since most people only know reality based economics, let me explain.
Oh, this should be good....
[quote]Since 2008 the Federal Reserve has purchased all long term debt. ...
*Yawn* Sadly, it wasn't. Good, that is. It's just more of the usual panic and fearmongering from the usual suspects. I was fully prepared to debunk this crap but the trouble is that there wasn't anything to debunk! Not one shred of evidence. Not one bit of data. Not one sign that the site he's quoting (which employs anonymous blog posters) has the foggiest idea what it's talking about.
What the Federal Reserve is doing is unusual only in that the size and duration of the economic downturn has increased the scope of their intervention. As the economy recovers, the Fed will unwind its intervention, just as it has done dozens of times in the past. This isn't rocket science.
[quote]Once they run out of short term debt, they will lose any ability to affect the interest rates, and they will go higher than the moon.
Q.E.D. These idiots have been predicting massive interest rates and massive hyperinflation for years. Sadly for them, since we're in a liquidity trap, neither of these things can happen. Our dear little friend will be back here next year, and the next, and the next, and the next, with the same old predictions of doom and gloom, just as he's been doing for years. The fact that his predictions never come true doesn't bother him in the least. Pity him, my friends.
Note, by the way, that our resident moron has no answer for my post at R239.
Ask a question, not ramble about insane government cocksucking!
Anyone who bought gold before last 2 government driven, fiat fueled bubbles is up 500% or more.
This thread is now 27 months old. Despite the Federal Reserve giving the banks over $2Trillion over the last five years, and pledging to print $85/mo from now until 2015 to buy government debt, the economy is still shitty.
If you bought stocks, you're breaking even. If you bought gold, you've gone from $1250/oz to $1650/oz, or up over 10%/yr.
Well of course it is. The economy is created by the middle class spending. They don't have income, they can't spend, and things are in the toilet. That's why action needs to be taken against the fake "global trade" system, none of it is "free trade." Furthermore, the rich have to be taken down. CEO pay has to be capped and it needs to be made virtually impossible to fire anyone.
Most of the people I know who used to have good jobs, now have minimum wage jobs...it's disgusting.
My place is paid off but I'll never get anything for it and even if I did, I couldn't afford anything better.
hope is dead. THANKS REPUBLICANS!
There are these things called "question marks," R246. I used them in my post at R239. In any case, what I was referring to was that you were not able to address the points I made, mostly because, as usual, I made you look foolish, not to mention dishonest.
[quote]Ask a question, not ramble about insane government cocksucking!
ROFLMAO.... Oh, the irony.... Here's a question for you, R246: Do you know the meaning of the word "projection?"
[quote]Anyone who bought gold before last 2 government driven, fiat fueled bubbles is up 500% or more.
I repeat: Actually, the return on gold investments over the past 100 years has been pretty dreadful, aside from the two bubbles, the first in the late 70s and early 80s, and the second today. Over that same 100 years, the stock market has vastly outperformed gold. Once again, below is the link to the chart that you just cannot handle and have never addressed.
Oh, and anyone who "invests" in gold today is not thinking clearly. Tell us again how gold is going to climb to $20,000 an ounce, won't you? I do so love a good fairy tale.
[quote]the economy is still shitty.
At least you're no longer claiming that the economy is worse. Maybe you actually *can* learn something!
Of course, out here in the real world, the economy is slowly recovering and has been recovering for the past three years.
[quote]If you bought stocks, you're breaking even.
Actually, you're up, and quite nicely, but don't let a few inconvenient facts get in the way of your rants. They never have before.
[quote]If you bought gold, you've gone from $1250/oz to $1650/oz, or up over 10%/yr.
You still can't bring yourself to acknowledge that the price of gold today is extremely volatile, bouncing all over the place, that the stock market has outperformed gold in the past year, and that gold is in a bubble, can you?
An economy is created when an excess of savings allows the creation of capital goods that can be turned into future revenue.
A house isn't a capital good- it's a durable consumable. Building trucks that can be used to haul goods- capital good. Building cars that can be used to get to/from work- possible capital good. Building TV sets (not the ones you watch) for entertainment to sell to other countries- capital good.
Giving banks trillions, allowing the government to set an effectively negative interest rate, making taxes and regulations so onerous that companies locate in other countries- NOT GOOD.
The best thing that could happen for this country is allowing (forcing) Texas to secede. Then it would be a haven for all the low tax, low regulation, freedom oriented people in the USSA.
[quote]The best thing that could happen for this country is allowing (forcing) Texas to secede. Then it would be a haven for all the low tax, low regulation, freedom oriented people in the USSA.
Oddly enough, quite a few of us would agree with you. And, man, it would not be pretty in that dream world of yours....
DJIA 12/26/2007- 13,138.85
DJIA 12/26/2012- 13,114.59
Is that your idea of "doing nicely"? 5 years and ZERO growth is good? Are you on Bernanke's payroll, or just stupid?
Then, R254, why don't you call for an "amicable divorce" between the states? If you think that states that have the right to govern themselves outside DC then why not advocate it?
S&P 12/26/2012- 1419.83
So, what stock market has "outperformed" gold? The one in your government fantasy land?
LOL... R255, you do realize that the Dow is really a poor measure of the stock market, right?
You really should just stop posting, since you clearly have no idea what you're talking about!
[quote]why don't you call for an "amicable divorce" between the states? If you think that states that have the right to govern themselves outside DC then why not advocate it?
Because, unlike you, I'm not a moron.
You see, allowing smaller units of government to thrive (which was the point of the US constitution- the states ruled, and DC was just arbiter of disputes) makes things better. Once Lincoln murdered 600,000 people in the 1860s he destroyed that balance, and now even when states like California and Colorado say that medical marijuana is okay, the DEA and FBI still raid and arrest people trying to help the sick.
I wonder how the resolutions passed by Alabama and other states refusing to comply with Obamacare will play out. Would you support sending in the Army to kill them if they refuse?
"...Dow is really a poor measure of the stock market, right..."
So, the S&P is a poor indicator too? Or do you just want to cherry pick the stocks that have done well- like the banks, or the pharmaceutical companies, or the military contractors...you know, the ones that get big subsidies from the government.
[quote]So, what stock market has "outperformed" gold? The one in your government fantasy land?
ROFLMAO.... Again, this would go better if you would actually read what I write instead of listening to those voices in your head. Let's recap:
1. The price of gold today is extremely volatile, bouncing all over the place
2. The stock market has outperformed gold in the past year
3. Gold is in a bubble, at near-record highs when adjusted for inflation.
4. The return on gold investments over the past 100 years has been pretty dreadful, aside from the two bubbles.
5. Over that same 100 years, the stock market has vastly outperformed gold.
6. If you bought stocks five years ago and have a well-balanced portfolio, you're up, and quite nicely.
Is this clear enough for you? Do I need to use smaller words?
[quote]You see, allowing smaller units of government to thrive (which was the point of the US constitution- the states ruled, and DC was just arbiter of disputes)
Thank you for confirming that your knowledge of history is just as bad as your knowledge of economics and finance.
[quote]I wonder how the resolutions passed by Alabama and other states refusing to comply with Obamacare will play out.
We already know the answer. They'll go to court and they'll lose, 9 to nothing.
R263, and if they STILL refuse to comply, would you send troops to kill them?
Simple question. Answer it.
LOL.... Why should I, R264? You never answer my questions.
But I'll humor you: I won't have to. Those few idiots who think they are above the law will soon find out that they are not, just as have similar idiots over the years.
WASHINGTON December 26, 2012 (AP)
U.S. shoppers spent cautiously this holiday season, a disappointment for retailers who slashed prices to lure people into stores and now must hope for a post-Christmas burst of spending.
Sales of electronics, clothing, jewelry and home goods in the two months before Christmas increased 0.7 percent compared with last year, according to the MasterCard Advisors SpendingPulse report.
That was below the healthy 3 to 4 percent growth that analysts had expected — and it was the worst year-over-year performance since 2008, when spending shrank sharply during the Great Recession. In 2011, retail sales climbed 4 to 5 percent during November and December, according to ShopperTrak.
This year's shopping season was marred by bad weather and rising uncertainty about the economy in the face of possible tax hikes and spending cuts early next year. Some analysts say the massacre of schoolchildren in Newtown, Conn., earlier this month may also have chipped away at shoppers' enthusiasm.
Retailers still have time to make up lost ground. The final week of December accounts for about 15 percent of the month's sales, said Michael McNamara, vice president for research and analysis at MasterCard Advisors SpendingPulse.
Still, this season's weak sales could have repercussions for 2013, McNamara said. Retailers will make fewer orders to restock their shelves, and discounts will hurt their profitability. Wholesalers will buy fewer goods and orders to factories will likely drop in the coming months.
Steep discounts weren't enough to get people into stores, said Marshal Cohen, chief analyst at the market research firm NPD Inc.
"A lot of the Christmas spirit was left behind way back in Black Friday weekend," Cohen said, referring to the traditional retail rush the day after Thanksgiving. "We had one reason after another for consumers to say, 'I'm going to stick to my list and not go beyond it.'"
Don't be a pussy. Answer the simple, direct question-
If the police in Sacramento, or Denver, or Birmingham, or Seattle, decided to arrest and imprison Federal agents that violated state laws would you support DC sending in federal agents to kill them?
It's a "yes or no" question.
I'm sorry this thread has turned into a pissing contest about gold. It started with reports from diverse locales, providing useful alternative information beyond that found in the mainstream media.
I hope we can return it to that.
Still waiting, r265
Until the fundamental reason the economy is shitty- the big banks and corps are in collusion with the government - then it doesn't matter.
ROFL... You already have your answer, R269. You just don't like it that I'm not going to play your silly little games. Since the situation you're envisioning can only occur in your fevered imagination, I don't see any point in joining you in your delusions. I'm just fine out here in the real world, thanks. You should join us here someday. You might even like it here.
No, R271, I'm just exposing you as a moronic pussy that won't answer questions.
The first post in this thread said Boston hadn't been hit too hard by the 2009 Recession. Is this still the case?
[quote]I'm just exposing you as a moronic pussy that won't answer questions.
LOL.... Ooh, I'm just so devastated by your magnificent debating prowess. How will I ever recover from this?
Do let us know when you'd like to return to the real world. We'll be right here waiting for you.
Bernanke is pumping $85B a month- yes, enough to send every American citizen $300 a month (and has been for 4 years) -into the market to prevent a stock market crash in order to support his Wall Street cronies. None of that money goes to the bottom .01%. It all goes to the rich.
Why do people like R274 continue to support a system that rapes the poor to give to the rich? It's sick.
[quote]Bernanke is pumping $85B a month- yes, enough to send every American citizen $300 a month (and has been for 4 years)
You really are ignorant, aren't you? The latest easing just started, moron. Moreover, in case it has escaped your notice, the economy still has not completely recovered, which means that what the Fed is doing is exactly what it is supposed to do, and what it has done dozens of times before, to good effect.
Unfortunately, because interest rates are already at rock bottom, the effect will be limited but it's still the right thing to do.
[quote]Why do people like [R274] continue to support a system that rapes the poor to give to the rich? It's sick.
ROFL.... You really should stop posting here, since every post here reveals the depths of your ignorance. We're still waiting for that hyperinflation and economic meltdown you've been predicting for years.
R276- if you are so ignorant of economics, why do you post!
The Federal Reserve has pledged to buy $85B in mortgages and government debt per month until 2014. If you have no clue about these things, why post stupid bullshit?
That money goes to the banks, and adds to the general tax burden for all of us. If you are so economically illiterate then just shut up, or show how allowing the government to print that much money each month helps anyone but the big banks?
On December 12, the US Federal Reserve surprised yet again by announcing QE 4: a program through which it would purchase $45 billion of US Treasuries every month.
Between this program and the Fed’s QE 3 Program announced in September, the Fed will be monetizing $85 billion worth of assets every month ($40 billion worth of Treasuries and $45 billion worth of Mortgage Backed Securities) ad infinitum.
Indeed, the Fed’s new policies are anchored to its goal of getting employment down to 6.5%. This means the Fed will buy these assets non-stop until employment gets down to 6.5%.
I’ve spoken to a number of people in the financial community as well as outside investors and no one seem to grasp the significance of this announcement.
First and foremost, QE does not create jobs. The UK has announced QE efforts equal to an amount greater than 20% of its GDP and has not seen any meaningful job growth. Similarly, Japan has announced nine rounds of QE for a combined effort equal to 20% of its GDP over the last 20 years and job growth remains dismal there.
Most people are smart enough to see this simple "cause/effect" relationship.
If the total economy is $100, and someone prints another $100, the value of their dollars drops. That is what the Federal Reserve is doing, and the only reason it it isn't showing up in stocks is due to the fact that the BOE, ECB, BOJ, and BOChina are doing the same.
But, a look at food and gas and energy prices shows how debased the dollar has become. That is why (smart) people are buying gold and silver and lead.
[quote]if you are so ignorant of economics, why do you post!
ROFLMAO.... Oh, the irony. Dear, if ignorance of economics prevented someone from posting here, I'm afraid that none of your posts would survive.
[quote]The Federal Reserve has pledged to buy $85B in mortgages and government debt per month until 2014. If you have no clue about these things, why post stupid bullshit?
ROFL... Dear heart, this is what you wrote: "(and has been for 4 years)," which is why I wrote what I did. See, out here in the real world, what you wrote was false and what I wrote was accurate, which is why you couldn't actually point to anything wrong with what I wrote.
[quote]That money goes to the banks, and adds to the general tax burden for all of us. If you are so economically illiterate then just shut up
LOL... Right back at you, dear. You really don't understand anything, do you? Free clues: what do those banks do with that money? How many times has the Fed done this over the past 100 years? What has been the impact of those other interventions? It's called macroeconomics, dear. You should look into it someday.
[quote]On December 12, the US Federal Reserve surprised yet again by announcing QE 4
Dear heart, we know. Given the state of the economy, the Fed is doing exactly what it is supposed to be doing. Now if only Congress would follow suit.
[quote]Indeed, the Fed’s new policies are anchored to its goal of getting employment down to 6.5%. This means the Fed will buy these assets non-stop until employment gets down to 6.5%.
Personally, I'm in favor of bringing unemployment down, aren't you? It certainly works better than your proposed remedy of austerity, which is making things worse all over the world.
[quote]I’ve spoken to a number of people in the financial community as well as outside investors
Oh, I doubt that; I really do.
[quote]and no one seem to grasp the significance of this announcement.
LOL.... Then you should fit right in, dear.
[quote]First and foremost, QE does not create jobs.
LOL.... Yup, you fit right in. You really don't know what you're talking about, do you?
[quote]Most people are smart enough to see this simple "cause/effect" relationship.
ROFL.... Dear heart, there's a reason why microeconomics and macroeconomics are separate branches.
[quote]If the total economy is $100, and someone prints another $100, the value of their dollars drops. That is what the Federal Reserve is doing, and the only reason it it isn't showing up in stocks is due to the fact that the BOE, ECB, BOJ, and BOChina are doing the same.
LOL.... You really should stop posting here since your every post demonstrates your determined ignorance.
[quote]But, a look at food and gas and energy prices shows how debased the dollar has become. That is why (smart) people are buying gold and silver and lead.
ROFLMAO.... Meanwhile, out here in the real world, gas and energy prices have zilch to do with what the Fed has been doing and food prices have been under control, other than the damage caused by the drought (oh, wait! I'm sure the Fed caused that, too!) and will remain so. You should join us here someday; you might even like it here.
At least you've stopped claiming that housing prices have massively increased over the past five years.
Face it, dear, you've been predicting hyperinflation and massive economic meltdown for years. It hasn't happened and it's not going to happen. That's reality; deal with it.
Oh, and out here in the real world, gold peaked in September/October, 2011 and has been flat or down since then. And is at historically high values when adjusted for inflation. Which means that no "smart people" are buying it right now.
Oh, and that idiot you quoted in R277? I've been having a lot of fun reading his prior reports via Google. He's been all over the place for several years now with the same sort of gloom-and-doom predictions you've been spewing, so it's not at all a surprise you'd be quoting him favorably. The problem for him, though, is the same as it is for you: his predictions never come true!
It's actually even a bit worse for him than it is for you, since he can't seem to quite make up his mind whether he's predicting hyperinflation or deflation, both of which he has confidently predicted are already here. I particularly loved this post, in which he states that, "The Great Collapse Has Officially Begun."
[quote]I’ve been warning of this for well over two years. My primary warnings were: 1) That 2008 was just a warm-up, 2) That the REAL Crisis had yet to unfold, 3) That the REAL Crisis would make 2008 look like a picnic.
[quote]Well, the period I’ve been warning of is now here. What’s happening right now is not just a market crash, bear market, deflation, or any other item related to just one asset class. Instead, this is a collapse of the entire US monetary and political system and the mentality of spending one’s way to wealth.
He goes on to say:
[quote]In simple terms, we’ve now entered the Real Crisis, the END GAME, [emphasis in the original] for our current monetary system. Before the dust settles on this mess, the US and its political, economic, monetary structure will look very very different.
[quote]However, before we get there, we will see riots, civil unrest, possibly martial law, for certain a Government shutdown, bank holidays, a debt default/ restructuring, the re-instatement of the Gold standard or something like it (possibly a basket of commodities), food shortages, and more.
The kicker? This was posted on August 20, 2011, more than a year ago. He's been predicting hyperinflation, deflation, and complete economic collapse for four years and it *still* hasn't arrived, despite his confident assertion more than a year ago that it already had! And this is the guy you expect us to take seriously now? Oh, and it gets better: you want to know why he's been doing this? Here you go:
[quote]Indeed, my Surviving a Crisis Four Times Worse Than 2008 report can show you how to turn the unfolding disaster into a time of gains and profits for any investor.
Tell me, do you even bother to *think* before you post this kind of crap? Or bother to do the same kind of five-minute Google check that I did? How many times do your heroes have to be wrong before you decide that your faith in them is misplaced?
This one, by that same author, is just as good. It's titled, "Passing Argentina… On Our Way to Weimar," and it includes such gems as:
[quote]It’s now getting to the point that the Fed has no other option than hyperinflation. And by hyperinflation, I mean the dollar as a currency is toast. As disturbing as this option sounds, it’s already happening.
And he goes on to say:
[quote]At some point, the Fed’s inflationary tactics will begin to take hold of the financial markets. When this happens, the dollar rally will reverse and gold will begin its spike above $1,000 an ounce. Gold was, is, and always will be THE storehouse of value during times of mass inflation. And those times are coming soon.
That was posted in October, 2008. So he's been wrong, consistently and completely, for more than four years and we should pay attention to him now, why, exactly? Or maybe by "soon," what he really means is "not soon."
This one may be the dumbest yet, though:
[quote]For the last 80 years or so, financial theory has held that inflation and deflation were mutually exclusive events. We’ve now seen that idea go up in smoke as deflation affects home prices and incomes in the US at the very same time that we experience inflation in energy and food prices courtesy of the Fed’s insane money printing.
"We’ve now seen that idea go up in smoke"??? What a spectacularly ignorant comment to make.
Someone has a vested interest in seeing that the government is seen as perfect and capable, when any person with eyes and half a brain can see that it is incompetent, destructive, self-interested and willing to destroy any enemy.
So, I guess she is trying to get a job with the Gestapo.
[quote]Someone has a vested interest in seeing that the government is seen as perfect and capable
ROFLMAO... Yup, I knew you wouldn't be able to handle the truth. Or the links that I provided. Or the fact that the moron you quoted has been badly wrong for at least the past four years. Instead, and as usual, you mindlessly attack.
What's hilarious about the attack is that you can't find a single post of mine that even comes close to claiming that "the government is seen as perfect and capable." Basically, you're just making shit up rather than trying to deal with what I actually write. Predictable, and hilarious. Thanks for the laugh.
[quote]when any person with eyes and half a brain
Well, you've definitely got the half a brain part nailed.
[quote]can see that it is incompetent, destructive, self-interested and willing to destroy any enemy.
That's why I vote Democratic.
[quote]So, I guess she is trying to get a job with the Gestapo.
ROFL.... Godwin's Law. You lose. Thanks for playing.
Forgot to add the extra new-line. My part of the above post should have begun with:
Yup, I knew you wouldn't be able to handle the truth. Or the links that I provided. Or the fact that the moron you quoted has been badly wrong for at least the past four years. Instead, and as usual, you mindlessly attack.
Good For YOU, R287-
It looks like you took a golden shower on this thread...and not one bit of evidence other than "ignore the evidence", the government will take care of us, and the corporations are good, and military is acting to save us!
So, who will be the first to chime in and say that the economy is better than 2008?
The rising prices in housing and the stock market are the direct result of the Federal Reserve giving free money to the big banks that they use to buy houses and stocks.
The rest of you are getting by (barely) on wages that are going seeing a tax increase of 2% or more, since the government allowed the payroll tax to rise.
Compare your check from 12/28/12to the one from 1/4/12 and see how much your taxes have gone up.
[quote]It looks like you took a golden shower on this thread...
ROFL.... Dear, you're one to talk.
[quote]and not one bit of evidence
ROFL.... Oh, the irony.... Dear heart, has it entirely escaped your notice that you have not provided "one bit of evidence" on this thread (or any other)? I'm just following your example, dear.
[quote]other than "ignore the evidence", the government will take care of us, and the corporations are good, and military is acting to save us!
ROFLMAO.... And now your usual tactic... since you can't respond to what I actually write, you have to make shit up. Go ahead, dear... find me an example of anywhere in any thread that I've said anything even remotely resembling any of those remarks. You can't, of course, since you're lying. It's rather pathetic, actually, not to mention desperate, but funny as hell!
[quote]Compromise is for people who are on an So, who will be the first to chime in and say that the economy is better than 2008?
I will, dear. The economy was in free-fall then, hemorrhaging jobs. It's definitely better, in just about any metric you care to name. Can you find anyone who will "chime in" and say that the economy is *worse* than 2008?
Yeah, that's what I thought.
[quote]The rising prices in housing and the stock market are the direct result of the Federal Reserve giving free money to the big banks that they use to buy houses and stocks.
ROFL.... Wow.... even for you, this is pretty silly. Note, by the way, that, as usual, no links and no data to support these assertions.
[quote]Compare your check from 12/28/12to the one from 1/4/12 and see how much your taxes have gone up.
2%, dear. This isn't rocket science. That tax was going to expire at some point. I'd rather it have expired a year or two from now instead of 1/1 but there was never any doubt that it would expire. Unfortunately for you, that expiration doesn't provide any support for any point you think you're making since the payroll tax was the higher value in 2008, which you seem to be harping on.
Go ahead, tell us how much better everything was in 2008! I can hardly wait!
r291 (and the hundred other replies you've posted) why can't you call a spade a spade, and say this---
OBAMA fucked the little guy! By allowing the payroll tax to rise, every single working person will see a tax increase.
Instead you defend the government and post bullshit.
[quote](and the hundred other replies you've posted) why can't you call a spade a spade, and say this---
Well, mostly because I'd be either stupid or lying if I said anything even remotely resembling that. Which of those applies to you, dear?
[quote]OBAMA fucked the little guy! By allowing the payroll tax to rise, every single working person will see a tax increase.
Dear heart, that was always intended to be a temporary tax cut specifically to stimulate the economy in 2012. There was never any chance that it was going to be permanent, if only because Social Security needs the revenue stream. So, out here in the real world, it's just not true that "OBAMA fucked the little guy!"
[quote]Instead you defend the government and post bullshit.
ROFL... Dear heart, pointing out that you're a moron who doesn't know what he's talking about isn't even remotely "defend[ing] the government."
I will note, by the way, that you still can't defend your really stupid assertion that the economy was better in 2008. I thought you gave up on that the last time you were called on it, yet here you are again, doubling down on the stupidity. You really should stop posting; you just dig that hole deeper and deeper with every post.
Oh, and anytime you'd like to handle the points I raised in R282, R283, and R284, I'll be right here.
No, it's obvious the economy is WORSE off than in 2008.
Do you lack basic reading comprehension skills?
All of the "stimulus" has gone to the banks, while the rest of us suffer.
I'm glad my wealth is in gold and silver, in a safe, and not in banks.
[quote]No, it's obvious the economy is WORSE off than in 2008.
ROFL.... Yup, you really are just that stupid. Wow....
[quote]Do you lack basic reading comprehension skills?
Not at all, dear, since I quoted you accurately. I was just giving you a chance to back off from the stupidity. Sadly, you declined, so we'll continue to laugh at you as the moron you are.
[quote]I'm glad my wealth is in gold and silver, in a safe, and not in banks.
LOL.... No comment.
it is pretty obvious if you take a broad look at different areas. The economy is huge - there are still plenty of people who have money to spend, though obviously less than previously.