Montreal is FAR better OP. Montreal is passion.\
Toronto does not have any passion. The Real Estate market is massively over priced right now. Most people who live in Toronto were not born in Canada and stick to their own communities. The traffic is so bad it is comical.
I think you need to know French to be accepted in Montreal.
Toronto is a beter place to live right now.%0D
Hells yah Toronto!!!
Toronto has no soul. The wealthy areas of Toronto are dominated by spoiled (now aging) rich kids living on Daddy''s money (talking to you Queen Street West crowd)
Are property prices likely to go down in Toronto? Or will it just continue on a steady, exorbitant rise (like London, England)? %0D\
I''m not au fait with the Toronto property market, but my friend''s house was worth about 500,000 in 2001 and is now hitting 1 million.
R1 and R5 are correct.%0D\
Toronto is overpriced and generic. And ugly.%0D\
Montreal is fun, stylish, and sexy. Plus great food!%0D\
If you are a student you won''t have to know French that much, but if you hope to work, you probably have to learn French. (Though there are those that still live in an English-speaking world)
The biggest factor driving up condo prices in downtown Toronto are the wealthy Chinese from Hong Kong. $500,000 for a small 1 bedroom in a new condo is peanuts for somebody from Hong Kong.
Montreal has more soul, history, architecture, style, etc. But it''s easier to get a job if you''re an anglo in Toronto. There''s more money in Toronto in general.\
Toronto now has the worst commute in North America (which means worst in the world as well) because public transit has been neglected for over 3 decades while the city has grown a lot - something like an average 90 minutes a day, round-trip. But overall, life isn''t too bad in T.O.
"Toronto now has the worst commute in North America (which means worst in the world as well) because public transit"%0D\
R9 has never been to Jakarta.
...and Jakarta has never been to North America.
Descriptions of the chili from both places, please.
Learn to read, R11/idiot. He said "which means the worst in the world as well".
I Knew One Of You Bitches Would Fail To Read It
I grew up in Toronto. It used to be a pretty decent city. Now it is overcrowded and overpriced. Torontonians have always had a reputation for being cold to newcomers and a difficult place to make friends, and that is all too true and has gotten worse in the last ten years. And the city is run by a corrupt bunch of douchebags.\
Montreal is so much better.
Montreal''s Metro is shockingly brutalist and ugly, but it''s efficient. Other than the ugliness of the Metro, no complaints.
I find that the people in Toronto like to pretend that Toronto is on par with New York. I like Toronto a great deal, but it''s not. \
Like New York, however, it''s most pretentious residents tend to be transplants from small and medium-sized cities in other parts of the country.
You are out of your effing mind, r15! Montreal''s Metro (the subway) is beautiful and a pleasure to ride. Each station was designed individually. And the trains run on rubber tires, which eliminates that knife-sharpener noise of steel-on-steel of T.O. trains.\
I was there a couple weeks ago and was reminded of the contrast from Toronto''s 1950s ceramic-tile bathroom esthetic stations. The subways pretty well sum up the difference between the two cities.
Montreal is shit. Homeless people everywhere, litter, strip clubs (okay, you may like that sort of thing). It''s seedy, it''s nasty. Toronto is there if you''re interested in seeing museums and going to malls. Neither city is so off-the-charts amazing. It''s CANADA, and I say this as a proud Canadian, but we''re not exactly party central. We make it up for it in other ways; free health care and gay marriage.
Toronto is not the worst commute in North America. I''d say it''s not in the top 20 worst. Americans cheat on their commute statistics, as with everything else.%0D\
Toronto''s subway is small and pretty useless, but the trams go everywhere.
Thanks for being honest, R23. Maybe the OP should be asking about European cities instead.
[quote]Toronto''s subway is small and pretty useless, but the trams go everywhere.\
And yet it carries more passengers than all but three other systems in North America - NYC, Mexico City and...Montreal. So that''s more than Chicago, DC, Boston, Philly, BART.
Yeah, but where does it carry them to, R32?
Typically blah Toronto station. And they''re not clean anymore either.
Toronto is Julie and Cheryl locked in a room together.
[quote]And yet it carries more passengers than all but three other systems in North America - NYC, Mexico City and...Montreal. So that''s more than Chicago, DC, Boston, Philly, BART.\
That''s why it''s useless -- the TTC IS small compared to NYC and the other cities, especially when you factor in Toronto''s huge population -- it feels even smaller because the subways are always overcrowded, even late at night. It is also expensive to use the TTC, considering what you pay for -- overcrowding, surly service, frequent service interruptions. The whole system should be privatized. It''s ridiculous that the losers who work in the cashier booths should be making as much money as they do, ditto the drivers. There are TTC employees who make over 100K annually driving the subway or buses. It''s insane.
Toronto ranked last in survey of commuting times\
Study by Toronto Board of Trade calls finding %C3%A2%C2%80%C2%9Cembarrassing%C3%A2%C2%80%C2%9D\
Even gridlocked Los Angeles is a better place for commuters than Toronto and its neighbouring municipalities, says a study conducted for the Toronto Board of Trade.\
It takes people in Greater Toronto an average of 80 minutes to commute to work, round trip, the study found.\
That%C3%A2%C2%80%C2%99s 24 minutes slower than Los Angeles, and the worst among 19 cities including New York, London, Chicago and Berlin.
I've lived in Toronto, Montreal, overseas, Vancouver and back in Toronto again.
One winter in Montreal was enough for me thank you very much.
Vancouver is nice when the sun is shining, if you can afford to live in a nice part of town, and don't mind the Seattle-like weather the other 99% of the time.
I agree with R23. None of them are anything to really rave about. Frankly, I hate Toronto these days. You pay special land transfer taxes when you buy real estate here, you pay a car tax if you have a car, the TTC is a world class joke, and with all the extra fees/taxes, our City Council still can't keep us within a budget. Torontonians like to think of themselves as a lot like New Yorkers but as someone who's also spent time in NYC, they (New Yorkers) are friendlier by far. People in Toronto are notoriously cold and forget about making close friends here.
I guess Toronto really is a shit hole.
If my partner weren't here, I'd have packed up and left a long time ago, and believe me there are times where I think about doing so anyway.
So basically im fucked if i live in Canada?
r23, which Canadian cities are nice? Are any comparable to good European cities? %0D\
I know people moan about the commute and transport in Toronto, but I find it miles better than London or Paris.
[quote]So basically im fucked if i live in Canada?\
Vancouver''s nice, if you don''t mind the grey skies and rain in the winter or the lack of cultural stuff to do. It''s also pricey.
You couldn''t get fucked if you strayed into the Leavenworth exercise yard naked.%0D
And we explained to you that Toronto people are measuring door to door and Los Angelenos are not.%0D
What about Ottawa or Calgary?%0D\
(I don''t mind dull... but I do like clean cities, good transport, and low crime).
Edmonton is the new Toronto
The BBC got in shit for referring to Edmonton as Deadmonton.
Ottawa is a cool place to live but you must have a car. The Winters are cold but the people are warm. Unlike Toronto, you never feel you have to keep a tight hold on your wallet in downtown Ottawa. \
People from Toronto have become so mean and un-Canadian like.
It''s the difference between living in a big city and a medium sized one. Depends on your constitution. Most Canadians don''t have the stuff for big cities and those that do, move to Toronto.\
Toronto is a much better, more interesting and dynamic city than Montreal but you''ll never "own" it, like you would a smaller burg, like Montreal or Vancouver.\
But the truth is, Torontonians are far more pleasant than Montrealers and Vancouverites are downright frosty.
I visited Toronto in 1985 and the people were mean then. It''s part of the genius locii, the whole lumberjack drunk thing.%0D
I have lived in both Los Angeles and Toronto. \
Los Angeles traffic is much worse!
Very few Canadian borns live in Toronto today. It is a totally different city now, than in 1985 when the majority of residents were Canadian born.
I've lived in Toronto for six years (originally from Calgary) and I have never found the people unfriendly. Reserved, yes. Most people in big northern cities are. But I've had mostly pleasant encounters with strangers. And I've had no problem making friends. %0D
Maybe it has more to do with you and your attitude than it does with other people. Just saying.%0D
Anyway, I have grown to love Toronto. It has it's problems, certainly. Public transit is inefficient and antiquated compared to other modern cities. It's embarassing, actually. It's certainly not the system we deserve but we have the unions and an ineffective city council to blame for that. But it works. The subways come frequently and aside from overcrowding during rush hour they're not usually THAT crowded.%0D
But Toronto has so much going for it in other ways that it's a joy to live here. Seriously. The cultural opportunities are second to none in this country.%0D
Toronto's charms aren't obvious to the casual visitor. It's a subtle city that slowly reveals itself to you if you're open-minded enough to receive it.%0D
Montreal is lovely, yes. But its charms are rather more obvious. And there's that French thing that Americans seem to find so seductive. Hey, I love it too. I'm sure it's a more laid-back pleasant place to live, but it doesn't have nearly the same employment or cultural opportunities that Toronto does.
[quote] It is a totally different city now, than in 1985 when the majority of residents were Canadian born.%0D\
You mean "white"%0D\
You''re the same bitter racist old fuck that posts on almost every Toronto thread complaining about how many immigrants Toronto has now and how much you hate it. Well, fuck off to Newmarket then.
Canadian cities comparable to European cities - I''d have to say Quebec City. Small streets, few cars, small buildings. It''s very compact, very nice.\
Whoa, what''s with all this hate for Toronto people? Why is there this consensus that we''re all assholes? Go to any city in Quebec and if you don''t speak a word of French, they sneer at you. Quebec has this ridiculous sense of entitlement and act as though they''re doing Canada a favor by not separating. By all means, GO.
I would also venture that Winnipeg looks like a lot of former Eastern Bloc cities and probably could go toe-to-toe with Russia when it comes to punishingly cold weather and alcohol-related social problems.
Honestly, as someone who''s lived in both cities, each has their charm, but they''re different flavours. It isn''t so much which city is better, but more what are you looking for.
Agreed R23. I like Quebec City. Have only visited but it did have a European feel to it. Though I speak French, I was there (and in Montreal) in the 80's and I really got fed up with the Anglo vs Franco thing and their threats of separation. By all means... pay us what you owe us and go.
Ottawa is cheaper than Toronto, certainly, but it reminds me of a place that rolls up it's sidewalks at 8 pm.
My partner is not from Canada originally and LOVES Toronto because he can be himself here, and is free to be as queer as he wants. Traffic is bad and is only going to get worse. I live downtown and try to walk as much as I can or drive in off peak hours.
Frankly, though I'm all for diversity and all that shit, there comes a point where enough is enough. I'd be quite happy if we closed our "open door policy" to immigration. I've gone to other countries to live and assimilated to the culture there.... why can't the immigrants coming to Canada do the same?
A friend of mine told me tonight that he recently visited Amsterdam and was told to be careful out at the bars because apparently some immigrants are targeting gays - they don't agree with the gay "lifestyle" and have been targeting them, and 16 men killed in recent months. City is keeping it on the down low because they don't want to scare off the tourists. I can see where something similar can happen here. Enough immigrants.... excuse me, "New Canadians" start voting down the rights and turning back Laws we already fought to win because it doesn't fit in with their cultural background.
r58, lots of the Dutch have moved to New Zealand and Canada because of such problems.
[quote]My partner is not from Canada originally and LOVES Toronto because he can be himself here, and is free to be as queer as he wants%0D\
Yes, that''s another reason I love Toronto. It''s open and liberal and welcoming. And really, really gay. I feel more comfortable here than I ever did in Calgary. I can be myself here.%0D\
As for immigration, so far I think it''s been good for Toronto. We can''t not have immigration. In 1985 when Toronto was white and WASPy it was a dire, boring, mean-spirited place. Since then it''s become much more open, tolerant and accepting of diversity of all kinds. Maybe it took the original Toronto WASPs to move to the suburbs for that to finally happen.
What a fucking liar! Winnipeg is not bleak or alcoholic. It is handsome and sensible, and it was the first large political unit in North America to be led by an out gay man. You want alkies, you ride that ferry from Newfoundland to Nova Scotia and you see if you can find me someone of any age who could pass a breathalyzer.%0D
There''s lots to do in Toronto, but it is a singularly unappealing city visually. I call it the City of Brown. The downtown is boring concrete, the commercial streets are shabby, and the residential streets are the same dumpy brick houses one after the other. Seriously, every house in Toronto looks exactly the same.
R61, I''m from Winnipeg and love it dearly, but there''s really no denying that the place is so bleak it''s practically mythical -- if you haven''t done so already watch Guy Maddin''s "My Winnipeg."\
I do, however, agree with you that the people of Winnipeg are truly some of the best in Canada -- sensible, hardworking, generous and surprisingly cultured and progressive. \
It''s also one of the only places in North America that seems to have completely escaped the recession.
I speak as someone who has lived almost her entire life in Montreal. The 2 years I didn't, I lived in Toronto.
Montreal beats Toronto handily. Here's why: Montreal is gay-friendly. The nightlife here as compared to Toronto is superior.
The food is mentioned often. This can and should never be underestimated. The food here is great and there's so much variety. I have over 40 restaurants that I highly recommend to others. In Toronto, you have to pay money to get a decent meal. In Montreal, you can have a sumptuous meal cheaply.
Yes, there's the language thing. Under normal circumstances, it should be something that is praised. But, we do have language nazis here and the language patrol. If you don't speak any french, you can still do alright for yourself. In fact, I know many people who don't speak a lick of french. There's a large anglophone population here.
Montreal is less diverse than Toronto. If you're a visible minority, you will have more difficult getting a job, moreso than Toronto. Being bilingual is a real asset. Job prospects are better in Toronto, regardless. Quebec's language laws among other things deter some businesses from flourishing. Despite a significant brown population, only 2% of managerial positions are held by visible minorities.
Our subway system can't be beat! No, it's not the most modern but it's relatively clean and very safe. Montreal has the largest underground city in the world. In Winter, I rarely have to step outside (downtown) to shop because there are tons of shops underground, easily accessed via tunnels and the subway system. The bike paths are extensive, you can bike the entire island.
What about the bad? Montreal is a wonderful city in spite of the dirtiness, the garbage, the graffiti. St. Catherine Street may have a wide variety of shops but it's a filthy street.
You probably will run into people who resent that you don't speak french or don't speak it to their liking. I remember one guy verbally bashed an Indian store owner (he was a French Canadian) for not speaking the language of his country. He spoke like Quebec was a country. It isn't. I would have told him so but he was tall and had no neck.
Montreal, as with most places, is both a beautiful and ugly city.
Does Calgary have a gay scene? Or is it pretty much a city to steer clear of?
Toronto is a shit hole.
The "----- is a shit hole" Troll
Anglo Canadian here from Vancouver for what it''s worth. My french is crappy. When I visited Montreal I really felt the culture barrier. The absolute worst was middle-aged Francophone ladies. If I tried to speak French they looked down their noses at me. If I spoke English they pretended not to understand. I''ve heard this from other people too... if you''re an American tourist there they''ll be nice, but if you''re Anglo-canadian not so much.\
Toronto is flat and dull. It''s just a generic city. The people seem cliquey and overly concerned with appearances, both in terms of how they look and social climbing.
So Toronto is turning into a shit hole, too?
Halifax is the hidden gem. Trust me. Halifax is growing at a stady rate, it has it's charm, but it's certainly not a big city. Still, the gay scene is bigger than in Calgary, and Calgary has a population of 1 million.
I'd say either Halifax or Vancouver. They're definitely the best cities in Canada. Toronto is ok, lots to do and see, but it's not a "beautiful" city, and yes, there is lots of immigrants there. Montreal is a beautiful city, but doesn't have as much to offer as Toronto does. Still, it's a very lively city and very gay friendly, but Toronto is also VERY gay friendly.
The French issue is the biggest problem though. They refuse to speak English. It's funny how the Francophones always claim their right to speak French in Anglophone Canada, but when the Angolophones do the same in French Canada, then they're automatically called racist. Quebec's new school policy is crap too. Forcing EVERYONE in Quebec to attend French school even though the constitution specifically says that English speaking people have the right to attend an English school even in Quebec. Like I said, if it was the other way around the English speakers would be called racist. But the French Canadians are allowed to discriminate against the English because they are a minority. I guess discriminating is ok as long as you do it to others. Such crap.
So yeah, Montreal is great, though it is French and you have ALL the French issues to take under consideration before moving there. You are pretty much screwed if you only speak English. So for that fact alone I'd pick Toronto over Montreal. I still think that Vancouver and Halifax are the best cities for the Anglophones though.
As a foreigner, I really liked Toronto. Yeah, parts of it are surprisingly ugly, but it''s so easy to get around and there''s always something interesting going on. And I always felt safe. %0D\
Montreal, I don''t know, was definitely interesting but a lot more closed off. The people were way more insular.
Jan Morris wrote a piece years ago about Toronto called "Flat City." It''s a national pasttime in Canada to dump on "Hogtown," but I lived there for 13 years and loved it.
Why is Toronto called a ''flat city''? As someone from outside, it''s a term I would not identify with Toronto; whereas I would identify the term ''flat'' with London and many other British cities - a huge, low-built sprawls, with no iconic skylines. I assume the ''flatness'' lies in the notion of blandness?
Montreal by a long shot. Especially if you are American. I went to University there and it was fucking fantastic. One of the biggest selling points though is the rest of the province. Quebec again is fanfuckingtastic. For whatever reason Quebec loves Americans. \
When I was at university I met more than a few people from Ontario. They were boring dolts. the Quebecoises are great people.
Even if you do speak pretty good French, it takes a bit of adjustment to understand what the average Québécois is saying. This really cannot be exaggerated. But it''s true that if you''re American, they''ll switch to English for you as much as they can. \
I''ll second the praise for Montreal''s underground city. It may be nothing more than a series of shopping malls in the city center connected to the Metro, but they''re really nice malls in ways that American malls aren''t nice anymore.
American living in Toronto...love it!
Another vote for Halifax. It''s charming, clean, and progressive with a strong arts and music scene. Great restaurants and nightlife. It reminded me of a Canadian/Euro-centric version of Austin.
Toronto is great, it just isn''t as great as the Boosters make it out to be. \
Parts of Halifax are charming but much of it is dirty and backwards. \
Montreal oozes fun and culture but it''s not always welcome to the non-Francos.\
Ottawa is beautiful in places and usually underrated, but it is a small city surrounded by massive and generic suburbs.
[quote]Does Calgary have a gay scene?%0D\
Of course. Calgary has a handful of gay bars and one large-ish dance club. It also has a bathhouse.%0D\
Lots of non-bar groups and clubs too.%0D\
The big annual gay even in Calgary isn''t Pride, it''s the Gay Rodeo. Queer cowboys from all over North American descend on Calgary for an actual rodeo. There are dances, parties, events, etc.%0D\
Calgary gays tend to entertain a lot at home as well.
I disagree that Toronto is ugly. Some parts of it are, certainly. Shabby urbanism, we call it. But there are spots in the city that are gorgeous. The Toronto Islands, High Park, the waterfront, etc. Many neighbourhoods such as Cabbagetown and the Annex are quaint and charming. No, they''re not pristine and shiny with well-manicured lawns. But there''s a charming coziness to them.%0D\
The downtown business core is like most downtown business cores. Skyscrapers and concrete. What else would you expect?%0D\
Again, it''s hard for casual visitors to get a real sense of what Toronto is like. And many come with an attitude and an expectation that it''s going to suck. You have to be here for a while to get it and appreciate it.%0D\
[quote]Why is Toronto called a ''flat city''?%0D\
It''s geographically flat. No more to it than that.
About Halifax, isn''t thee like 30 cm of snow every day of the winter? Also, I heard the guys are all violent drunks.
A North Dakotan who loves hanging out in Regina
I''d like to know more about Montreal being a cunt factory, please.
I ordered food in English in a Montreal cafe, and while the waitress was polite to me some nearby patrons were loudly commenting on "those Americans who can''t speak French". It just felt like a hostile environment, and this was in a tourist area.
Regarding the language issue in Montreal. Quebec is a French province. It is not an English province, it is not a bilingual province. It is a French province where French is the official language and the language of the majority. Much like France you should not go there with the expectation that everyone speaks English.
Quebecers are very sensitive about language. It''s been a sensitive, hot-button issue for decades. They set into place lots of laws and regulations to ensure that French remains supreme. Fair enough. But if you want to attract non-French speaking tourists to your cities you do have to realize that you are in an English speaking continent and bend just a little.%0D\
In Toronto you can speak whatever the hell language you want.
Quebec is great. You can take a day trip across the river and go skiing in the Chic Chocs...some of the best non groomed skiing in the world. Look at the "ski lift" LOL
Then you go farther north up the province to a place called Le Tadoussac. It''s beautiful. Fjords and everything. This is where the whales go to have their babies in the summer. You can go on a whale watching trip and easily see five or six adult whales and just as many babies. \
I could be your tour guide. I know the province like the back of my hand.
Is that you, R90?%0D\
Absolutely beautiful place.
LOL, R90. That isn''t even a real fjord. Come here and you''ll see fjords!
No. I''m far prettier. My mother is pure laine so I have the black hair and blue eyes.
I found French speakers in Montreal to be very tolerant of English-speaking Americans. On the other hand if you want to live there you would feel isolated in the long run if you didn''t learn at least every-day French.
Well I didn''t mean for that clip to show the fjords it was just a quick cut and paste link. My point being though was in Quebec you can get sophisticated city life and all the outdoor fun you want too. Here''s a good shot
R94, I''ve had the same experience and I''ve visited a dozen times. It seems the trick is to let people know you''re visiting from NYC and don''t speak English and all is forgiven.
Exactly, R96. It''s funny how the Francophones are easily calling the Anglophones racist if they somehow find the language laws in Quebec outdated and silly, and not to mention UNconstitutional, which they are. But they sure claim their rights in the rest of English speaking Canada. It doesn''t take much for them to speak up if they can''t go to their precious French schools, even though they refuse to establish ANY English speaking schools in Montreal, and practically force the kids to learn French.. It''s funny how Anglophones have a harder time in the french speaking region than the other way around. But I guess, like I said, Francophones are allowed to discriminate since they''re a minority.
Wrong R97 the language laws are constitutional. Plus it doesn''t help on how the constitution was adopted. The rest of the provinces didn''t want to negotiate anymore, so while the delegation of Quebec slept, the other delegations met and voted to ratify the constitution.\
That being said what is so wrong about wanting to preserve a unique culture in North America?
R98: There''s nothing wrong with wanting to preserve the Quebecois/Francophone culture. They do an admirable job in many respects as it is a vibrant and dynamic one. That doesn''t excuse the appalling narrow-mindedness that many French-speaking Quebecois display when it comes to their Anglophone counterparts both in the province and across the rest of the country. It''s rude and offensive. They want respect for the their way of life but don''t seem as willing to give it to others who are different from them. And I say that as an Anglophone (from Toronto) who is bilingual and loves Quebecois culture.
[quote]That being said what is so wrong about wanting to preserve a unique culture in North America?%0D\
Nothing. But it''s led to a kind of cultural tribalism that isn''t very nice to witness and isn''t very welcoming of outsiders. Some might call it racism.
[quote]And I say that as an Anglophone (from Toronto) who is bilingual and loves Quebecois culture.\
Just so long as they don''t keep speaking that pesky French right? So said they don''t make it easier for you to get around in English.
I lived in Montreal, Toronto, and Vancouver - and I have just moved to "the hidden gem" - Halifax.%0D\
Person who said Halifax was the hidden gem - can you say something more about the gay life there (you said it was bigger than Calgary?)%0D\
Here are my impressions: I love Montreal...but I can''t live there. My French isn''t good enough and I don''t like the French-English divide. But if you didn''t have to work, you might like it. Best food and sexiest people!%0D\
Toronto: I can''t love it. It''s not beautiful. Never got a good vibe from it. It isn''t really diverse - it''s cold WASPs and Tower of Babel millions of ethnic groups living separate lives.%0D\
Vancouver: Rain, New-age hypocrites mixed with loud materialism. Heroin. Homelessness. No culture. No intelligent conversation or wit - ever.%0D\
Halifax so far: I am stunned by how polite and nice people are. Am hoping to make good friends here...
An English-speaking continent, R88?%0D\
Geography isn''t your best subject, is it?
Mexico, Quebec, half the Caribbean
You anti-french queens sound like all the ignorant, old coots I grew up among back on the prairies. I can just see you with your faces all screwed up, temple-vein throbbing.........and wearing a caftan.
I lived in Toronto and Montreal briefly, but IMO they are hard places for a West Coast person to get used to living in. We''re used to space, and green, and the ocean, and being able to go for a long walk in December. I couldn''t cope with month after month of freezing cold and bare trees and dirty piles of snow. In Montreal you''d go three months without ever going outside for more than a few minutes. And then the summers were too hot and muggy. I''d fly back to Vancouver and breathe a sigh of relief. And then I''d get rained on.
Don''t like Halifax. Love St. John, New Brunswick, lots of tin tin haircuts, which I love, wonderful vibe.%0D\
St. John''s Newfoundland, most beautiful city on the continent. People crazier than a shithouse rat.%0D\
And a lot more drunk.%0D\
Ottawa full of yuptards, but very clean and full of sexual energy.%0D\
Quebec inbred, but more like Utah than New Orleans.%0D\
Montreal a little pathetic. %0D\
Kingston, Halifax: undiscovered gems.%0D\
London, Ont too midwestern. Sault Sainte Marie too dirty. Thunder Bay, frightening. Sudbury, frightening.%0D\
Winnipeg, surprising amount of class. Regina and Saskatoon, bumpkins.%0D\
Calgary: Americans, Mormons, and Texas style attitude - YUK! Edmonton: 90% gay from the looks of it.%0D\
Vancouver: okay, aims more for San Francisco than Seattle vibe, but doesn''t quite hit it. Victoria: party like you''re 99!%0D
I meant Kingston and Hamilton, not Halifax, which I don''t like.%0D
After my experience in Montreal i was scared of France, but I found the people in Paris much more friendly and welcoming in general and had a much better time there. In France I tried to speak French when I could and people appreciated it and tried to help. In Montreal when I spoke French people pretended they couldn''t understand and looked down their noses at me. There''s the difference.
r67. i think
Montreal has some beautiful and artistic features to it, but unfortunately if you aren''t French you won''t be treated as an equal politically.
The French hate the way French is spoken in Quebec.
There''s a cute francophone news reader on the French CBC news. I forget his name, but he''s kind of a silver fox, or "renard en argent."
R111, I like Abbé Lanteigne, the local anchor on the station in Moncton, NB that serves the Atlantic province ("Acadie"). Talk about renard en argent! He''s the one on the right, and it''s not even a good picture of him.
[quote]Montreal has some beautiful and artistic features to it, but unfortunately if you aren't French you won't be treated as an equal politically.
[quote]Just so long as they don't keep speaking that pesky French right? So said they don't make it easier for you to get around in English.
You're wrong. It's not about that at all. I love the French culture and the language. I love Quebec, but this is about treating others as equal and the fact that they are a part of Canada. The country is very multictulural, and that's what many think is so great about it. English and French are BOTH official languages, so there's no need to look down on French Canadians, as there is no need to look down on English Canadians. The English Canadians have had it through their heads for years tha the Quebec people are a minority, and we should respect them speaking French etc. But how can we when the Quebec people REFUSE to speak English with the English Canadians or what about the fact that they look down on English people TRYING to speak French. For example, English speaking Canadians MUST talk French in Quebec, but it's fine to speak French in Ontario which is an English province (I.E. French school laws in Ontario). People MUST adapt to their way of life, but they refuse to adapt to the English way of life. Don't you think that's a bit hypocritical? And as someone else said, if the language and culture is so special, then why the NEED for language policies at all? Just look at Spanish in USA, the Spanish community is thriving, and without language policies!
[quote]It's led to a kind of cultural tribalism that isn't very nice to witness and isn't very welcoming of outsiders. Some might call it racism.
[quote]They want respect for the their way of life but don't seem as willing to give it to others who are different from them. And I say that as an Anglophone (from Toronto) who is bilingual and loves Quebecois culture.
About Halifax, R102.. Halifax is such a lovely city, very british kinda. And such beautiful surroundings too! It's one of the cheapest cities in Canada, and the city is growing because it has become so popular. So the real estate market there definitely has potential. It's not the biggest gay scene in the country per se, but you do have gay bars and gay restaurants and gay baths, whatever you want. And I'd say the gay scene is pretty big for a city of this size. It seems very welcoming too. And yes, counting bars and restaurants etc, the gay scene IS actually bigger than in Calgary, which is pretty amazing considering Halifax has less than 1/3 of Calgary's population. Calgary has and always will be a conservative freeper town. They love Harper there, ugh.. But yes, I'd definitely say give Halifax a try. It's a nice city, and very liberal like the rest of Canada. I think you will like it there!
Halifax has aleays had a dispropotionately large gay scene, probably because it is a seaport and the nearby Shearwater navy base.
Last time I visited Montreal, all I could think of was being treated as a political equal. I was obsessed.
LOL. Yes, that''s probably the reason R111.\
And remember: gays can actually serve in Canada. And get married! Maybe there''s even a married couple in the marine? Who knows:)\
I forgot to include this before.. I think it''s worth the trip if you ever decide to vacation there, or even move there. The city has got so much potential, and it really is the hidden gem of Canadian cities. It has a lively music scene, and gay scene is fairly big. Halifax has culture. Good food too. It''s very British and it''s very liberal and gays are accepted as equal. What''s not to love? Please give Halifax a chance. It really is a fantastic city.
Plus, Halifax is the largest city in the Maritimes so one assumes the city-seeking homos who want to stay close to home flock there instead of Montreal or Toronto.
So is it agreed Calgary is the worst city for the gays in Canada?
The general consensus seems to be: Toronto is expensive, chilly (socially), and kind of ugly, but the undeniable cultural/gay capital of Canada. Montreal is vibrant, fun, and beautiful, but best left to fluent-french speakers in terms of living there full-time. Vancouver is undeniably picturesque and has an easier climate, but you need to really be into west coast living (biking, snowboarding, fair trade coffee) to put up with the expense and lack of cultural amenities (for a city of it's size).
Of the smaller cities, Halifax seems to lead the pack: friendly, historic, good arts/culture scene and fun. Quebec City is arguably Canada's most beautiful and European city, but is strictly francophone. Hamilton is now pretty much just another Toronto suburb, right? Ottawa seems to be universally considered to be safe and staid, but a good bet if you like yuppies and cities where everybody has a college degree, and the Ottawa valley is very pretty. Conversely, Winnipeg is rough and blue collar (and in the middle of the very cold, very flat Canadian prairies), but has good arts/cultural opportunities and nice people. Edmonton wins points for not being Calgary, but is still in conservative Alberta -- I'd like to hear more about what you guys think of Edmonton. Victoria is pretty and has a very nice climate, but is full or retirees and overdoes the "ye olde england" stuff a bit too much in my opinion.
Toronto the cultural capital? OMG.
2nd OMG???? that Toronto as the Culture Capital of Canada. Not even close. Toronto redefines boredom. Maybe if you come from Barrie, Ontario, Toronto is the center of the cultural universe, but to anybody else....Toronto is lame, a place where people live to work and that is all.
[quote]Toronto is lame, a place where people live to work and that is all.%0D\
You couldn''t be more wrong.
Halifax is about to be wiped out by a major hurricane.%0D
i love Montreal with its beautiful and hung male strippers, i''m going back there in October
r121 is posting from 1956.\
Sorry hon but the city has changed. Maybe yall in the rest of Canada will catch up, or not. Nobody in Toronto cares if you do, maybe that''s the issue?
I know you tried to be funny, R119, but so far it''s only a 50 % chance the hurricane is going to hit Nova Scotia, who knows if it will hit Halifax, or maybe it will be really weak by then..\
Still, should make for a fun US Open next week! lol
So if it''s not Toronto, what is the culture capital of Canada?
Assuming culture capital of Canada isn''t an oxymoron
What about Windsor?
In terms of the arts, design, publishing, media, or finance, Toronto is the Canadian hub. While the people of Toronto very often have a puffed up sense of their city and its importance, the tendency for people in other parts of Canada to hold Toronto in contempt is equally silly. \
While I''m prepared to listen to the arguments for Montreal/Vancouver being more livable cities than Toronto, it''s really impossible to argue that either one of them is Canada''s cultural capital. \
It would be like saying Boston or Seattle trumps New York, or that Toronto trumps New York, for that matter.
All of Canada is a bit weak on culture these days. I blame the Conservative government and years of the Canadian Idol Karaoke TV shows. Montreal is the only place left that still has a bit of culture left. \
Watching the MMVA (Toronto: Music awards) in Toronto will tell you all you need to know about the sad state of culture in Toronto. (The Jonas Brothers, Justin Bieber and Miley Cyrus) need I say more. Biggest Toronto media event of the year so far.\
Link to DRAKE: Toronto''s biggest Super Star at the MMVAs. (Celine "Montreal" Dione is shaking with fear as is Bryan "Vancouver" Adams)
Toronto is the capital of English Canadian culture, Montreal, French. %0D\
Little known fact that surprised me: more people are employed in theatre in Montreal. You''d never know it.
I didn''t know that either, R131. I did know that Quebec does have a rich theatre tradition. Robert Lepage (gay) based in Quebec City and Michel Tremblay (also gay) based in Montreal are big names in all of Canada in terms of theatre. And of course the National Theatre School is based in Montreal.
I live in LA but am visiting Montreal as I type. I LOVE it here (save for the stifling heat wave)! It''s such a great town. Nothing but superlatives...
Toronto is not New York. It''s Cincinatti.%0D\
Montreal is the cultural capital of Eastern Canada. Ontario-BC have no culture.
It doesn''t surprise me, R131. Montreal is the only place with intelligent, vibrant theatre - and it is in French.%0D\
The rest of Canada''s "theatre" is one Shakespeare play, another production of Alan Ayckborn, or Neil Simon or some such tired safe old shit, and some dreadful taxpayer-funded didactic poltically-correct witless junk "written" by a local. Toronto is busy putting on dumb glitz from the USA - big dumb tacky productions of shit.
Love Windsor. Small, pretty, male strippers, and a front row seat for the disaster of Detroit. Lots of excursions in the area (not so with most of Canada).%0D\
There is no consensus on Halifax. The harbor is pretty, the city....isn''t. Its major tourist interests are sites related to the 1917 explosion of a munitions ship in the harbor that killed lots of people and an unused fort with chubby local teenagers dressed in historic redcoat drag. When the British made the admiralty court at Halifax the Supreme Court for its colonies, they more or less guaranteed the American Revolution.%0D\
What is all this talk about Vancouver having a "lack of cultural amenities"?
R137, Vancouver has no culture. None. No art, no theatre - nothing. No one reads - or thinks. It''s go to the gym, talk about money, yoga, hike, watch tv, smoke pot or do heroin. That''s it.
In Quebec City they have music majors from Laval performing opera at the mall. I always thought that wad kind of cool.
You know, for a city that everyone seems to think is so awful there sure are a lot of people wanting to live in and are moving to Toronto.
The Truth Fairy
[quote]Toronto is not New York. It's Cincinatti.%0D
Toronto is Toronto.%0D
It doesn't try to be anything but, despite what you think you know.%0D
Stop trying to compare it to American cities and measure every fucking thing by American standards. And stop being so fucking patronizing. Toronto the largest city in Canada and the centre of arts, media, entertainment, business, etc. English Canada, anyway. Whether the rest of Canada likes it or not. I'm sure all the other cities are lovely and have lots going for them, but people who are serious about success come to Toronto. If we're to be compared to New York (which I always thought was stupid anyway) it's on that basis alone.%0D
In terms of culture, we have shitloads of it. Festivals, music, art, dance, theatre, film. From the no-budget grassroots to the swanky galas, we have it all.%0D
The MMVAs??? Give me a fucking break. Turn off your TV and go outside. There's a world out there, you know. Don't be afraid.%0D
Our fine city has come a LONG way in the last few decades. And we're still growing and changing. That's one of the things I find exciting about it. The growth is palpable. You can feel it happening. It's not always pretty and it's not always what everyone wants, but rest assured in twenty years you won't recognize the place. No thanks to our completely ineffectual city hall, that is. The growth is happening despite them, not because of them.%0D
AND we're the gayest fucking city in the country. One of the gayest in the world.%0D
[quote]Assuming culture capital of Canada isn't an oxymoron%0D
Don't be a fucking twat. Of course Canada has culture. Just because you don't know about it and can't recognize it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. We just don't ram it down your throats. Except for that Celine bitch. You can have her. She's always been more of an American style entertainer anyway.%0D
So, have I made myself clear? If I hear one more ill-informed, ignorant, stupid-ass word about Toronto I WILL come over there and smack the shit out of you. Then I'll lick you all over until you come, tuck you into bed with a cookie, and kiss you on the forehead.%0D
Now, good night. GOOD NIGHT, I SAID!!!
[quote]It''s geographically flat. No more to it than that.\
Uh, ever hear of Forest HILL? The Don VALLEY? The Scarborough BLUFFS? Time you ventured outside your airport hotel room.
SING IT R141!!
[quote]Uh, ever hear of Forest HILL? The Don VALLEY? The Scarborough BLUFFS? Time you ventured outside your airport hotel room.%0D\
Downtown Toronto is geographically flat.
"Toronto is busy putting on dumb glitz from the USA - big dumb tacky productions of shit."\
You really have no idea what you are talking about.
"Downtown Toronto is geographically flat."\
As are the downtowns of most cities.
Toronto is a great place to live, you''ll just never convince other Canadians (most of whom have never set place in it or beyond their relatives homes in Oshawa and Newmarket) of that.
Ah but that''s where you make your error R141. Anyone who visits feels immediately the American midwestern vibe. You can deny it, but you''d be wrong. Toronto is not like Cincinnati (we have such terrible spellers here), but it is a lot like Chicago. Yes, they are different, and Canadians dwell fanatically on those differences. But to anyone outside the USA and Canada, they are interchangeable and indistinguishable, except that Chicago has a better waterfront and Toronto''s nightlife is much rowdier.%0D\
R141 done finally set his pancake breasts free!
To be fair,r148, to most people outside of the USA and Canada, anywhere in English Canada is pretty much interchangeable and indistinguishable from the cities in the northern part of the United States. And it''s not like anybody in the rest of the world loses sleep at night wondering about the future of French Canada either.
Let''s just all agree that Montreal is a shithole, and call it an evening.
So Dublin is the largest city in Ireland. Does that make it as exciting as Toronto? Of course not. There''s a big difference between a city of 1 million and one of 5 million. But there''s also a big difference between one of 5 million and one of 15 million (LA and NY) or even 10 million (London).%0D
I thought Canadian culture was anti-ambition. So Toronto would be the "capital of culture" as defined by the people who go there in defiance of Canadian cultural norms. I just can''t puzzle it out.%0D
Let me tell you aboot Toronto: it''s rockin'', ''cause it''s the home of the Zit Remedy!
Toronto regurgitates other countries culture, but has no original culture of it''s own. \
Pride - came from NYC stonewall Pride\
Caribana - came from Trinidad Caribana\
Toronto Film Festival - came from Cannes\
All the "elite" stores are mini versions of American and European franchises.\
The only icons of Toronto, died years ago.\
Honest Eds - Dollarama, same products at twice the price.\
Queen Street West is an illusion created by CityTV (now owned by Bell Canada). It is where the tourists from the suburbs go to feel cool and buy the same Made in China clothes as available at the malls, for a much higher fee. Throw in a bunch of "trendy franchises" selling coffee and food, voila Queen Street West.\
Yonge Street Strip: Junk store alley. You can buy all the florescent boob lamps and T-Shirts with stick on sequins your heart desires.
'Toronto regurgitates other countries culture, but has no original culture of it's own.
Pride - came from NYC stonewall Pride
-Wrong: It was a response to the bathhouse raids of 1980. But the raids happened in February -not a great time to stage a gay fest.
Caribana - came from Trinidad Caribana.
-Caribana is a cultural festival celebrating the city's African American population -most of which came from the islands
Toronto Film Festival - came from Cannes
So every film festival in the world is a copy of Cannes and hardly original.
"Queen Street West is an illusion created by CityTV (now owned by Bell Canada). It is where the tourists from the suburbs go to feel cool and buy the same Made in China clothes as available at the malls, for a much higher fee."
If you think Queen St. West is the hip nabe of T.O. then you know nothing about the city. It was around 1977-85 but then it was gentrified and the hipsters moved west and then north and then where ever. CityTV didn't even move into Queen West until the late 80s.
Really, nobody from Toronto shops on Yonge St.
Montreal is like Boston, but French. The people are insular and self reflective and self-inflated. Culture is equated with the French language without being exceptionally "cultural". Culturally it''s a pretty pedantic place. And it''s not a land of opportunities, more a land of niches.\
You will always feel like an outsider.\
It''s urban and somewhat cosmopolitan but in comparison with Toronto, it feels like a small town.
[quote]I thought Canadian culture was anti-ambition. So Toronto would be the "capital of culture" as defined by the people who go there in defiance of Canadian cultural norms. I just can''t puzzle it out.%0D\
You know what I can''t puzzle out? What the fuck you''re talking about.
Anglo Canada is just another place where they speak English. French Canada, on the other hand, truly is a distinct society, not just in Canada, but in the world.%0D\
One example: it is the only Nordic Latin society on earth. It is also the only nation-size French society in the West and by far the oldest and largest. It also has the hottest men north of Cine Yara.
I agree with R157. I''ve lived in Mtl, and as much as I love it and have fond memories, it feels very "dead end," looking more to the past than to the present or even the future. Toronto is the opposite -- much more vibrant and alive. The one thing I hate about Montreal? English Canadians who move there. They''re the most pretentious twits I''ve ever met, and this thread demonstrates that in spades. They seem to think that, just by the fact that they live/lived in Montreal, it makes them superior.\
Another annoying thing about Montrealers is that they''re obsessed with comparisons to Toronto. Torontians, on the other hand, don''t give Montreal a second thought.
"Pride - came from NYC stonewall Pride\
-Wrong: It was a response to the bathhouse raids of 1980. But the raids happened in February -not a great time to stage a gay fest"\
WOW R156, just WOW....Boy you are the rocket scientist. Here is hoping you have family money to fall back on.\
"Within a few years, gay rights organizations were founded across the U.S. and the world. On June 28, 1970, the first Gay Pride marches took place in Los Angeles, Chicago, and New York commemorating the anniversary of the riots. Similar marches were organized in other cities. Today, Gay Pride events are held annually throughout the world toward the end of June to mark the Stonewall riots."
"WOW [R156], just WOW....Boy you are the rocket scientist. Here is hoping you have family money to fall back on."\
Yeah we all know why Gay Pride worldwide occurred, genius, but the question was what was the impetus for the Toronto Gay Pride celebrations. And like the original Pride, they were political. Surely it would have been adopted anyway (just as with any gay pride celebration worldwide), but this is why they decided to hold a march in Toronto every June.\
Now kindly eat some e-coli tainted meat and get kidney failure. \
"Toronto''s Pride Week evolved out of the mass protests that followed the 1981 Toronto bathhouse raids, and celebrated its 25th anniversary in 2005."\
See I can quote wikipedia too!
Of course they''re lying R164, or else they''d have it in February. I guess Canadian content rules applies to protest history too.%0D
I really like Vancouver. I would like to visit Banff.
I wish I had rich parents who would buy me a town house in the beaches or a condo near Queen street. Oh well, its the Go train back to Whitby again tonight.
"I wish I had rich parents who would buy me a town house in the beaches or a condo near Queen street. Oh well, its the Go train back to Whitby again tonight."\
Just rent, bitch. You''ll be happier for it.
R155 is correct. Toronto is so uninteresting and unoriginal. It is always desperate to copy the US. And not even the good stuff.%0D\
PS: Anyone "serious about success" or is ambitious does not go to Toronto. They leave Canada. People go to Toronto to "get a job", the way people go to Calgary to "get a job."%0D
The Real Truth Fairy
Toronto sucks ass.
I agree Toronto is lame and dull for such a big city.
Montreal is just dreadful. Pittsburgh with regurgitated French culture and the same culturally chauvinistic attitude but without anything really to back it up. And agree with the above poster, its anglo population is the worst. Pretentious and pedantic.\
But it would appeal to someone whose idea of world travel is Epcot.
I''m warming up my smacking hand. Some of you bitches are really going to get it.
Montreal fun and sexy, Toronto dull and uptight.
Toronto has all the charm of a Kids in the Hall sketch. Chicken lady, anyone?
Lucy wanted to move to Toronto but Gary talked her out of it.
It''s vulgar, but they let you know their vulgarity is knowledgeable about current events.%0D
[quote]I wish I had rich parents who would buy me a town house in the beaches or a condo near Queen street. Oh well, its the Go train back to Whitby again tonight.\
Residents call it "the Beach". Only outsiders call it "the beaches".
Montreal Anglophone born and raised and lived here all my life, except for 3 yrs LA & 2yrs London UK.%0D
I am fluently bilingual with a large group of French friends. %0D
Montreal is a very sad reflection of its past glory days. %0D
Now the city is overrun with corrupt politicians, political scandals, violent street gangs and broken infrastructure. We have major sections of the city that have been construction sites for 3 years!! On the main street Ste Catherine, there has been a bulldozer parked in the middle of the street since April and not one bit of work has been done!%0D
The homeless population has skyrocketed were you now get asked for changed ten times within three blocks. If you are in your car at a light the squeegee kids attack your car and demand money.%0D
The economy is in the dumps and the Parti Quebecois is starting to chat about %C3%A2%C2%80%C2%9CSeparation%C3%A2%C2%80%C2%9D again and making Quebec a nation!.%0D
The French Canadians are some of the nicest kindness people you will ever meet unfortunately too many of them still have the image of the %C3%A2%C2%80%C2%9Cmaudite anglais%C3%A2%C2%80%C2%9D in their back of the head that the church told them was to blame for all their ills.%0D
No matter how well I speak & write French I will always be %C3%A2%C2%80%C2%9Cune anglophone%C3%A2%C2%80%C2%9D%0D
Many of these Quebecois don%C3%A2%C2%80%C2%99t really believe you are a true Quebecois unless you are %C3%A2%C2%80%C2%9CPure Laine de souche%C3%A2%C2%80%C2%9D (Pure Wool of Quebecois French parents)%0D
Although my family has been here and greatly contributed to Quebec for over 120yrs I will always be an outsider.%0D
As much as I love Montreal it will never come close to its former glory and I can%C3%A2%C2%80%C2%99t handle the BS with living in this city anymore, so I am done and leaving next May.%0D
I would say Montreal is a great place to live for a student or a fantastic place to visit, but the day to day is just too much.%0D
179 I feel ya, I hit the 401 years ago and never looked back on Montreal.%0D\
I do visit and have the time of my life but would not want to live there again.
Montreal is awesome and sexy!!
I will bet you there are more people who can speak English in Montreal today, than in Toronto.
With Ford as the new Mayor. Toronto is becoming Alberta.
Loving the info on Halifax. Considering moving there from Toronto. Toronto is so over now! (Ontario is economic chaos and not getting any better).
I want to move to Toronto and stalk the gays from "1 Girl, 5 Gays".
If you're looking to get high with Mayor Rob Ford, sure.
Not so R169. Only the sociopaths leave Canada altogether.
Good crack, easy to get, the mayor's got the number for you.
hmmm...how interesting that judgemental Canadians have an OBESE, alcoholic, crackhead of a mayor in Toronto, their biggest city.
I want to move to Winnipeg.
People who think it's perfectly acceptable for French fascism to reign in Quebec have never met a French redneck. We aren't talking about Parisian charm and elan here. We are talking argumentative inbred people whose number one recreation has always been lighting farts.