BBC announcers pronouncing Van Gogh like Diane Keaton''s character in MANHATTAN
A Van Gogh painting has been stolen in Cairo. All the BBC news announcers are pronouncing it Van GOCCCH just like Diane Keaton''s insufferable character in MANHATTAN.\
Just pronounce it Van GOE, douchebags. You still pronounce Liza Minnelli''s first name as Leeza and that ain''t right, either.
BBC Pronunciation Unit''s advice for presenters.\
Van Goe isn''t correct either.
OP - Van Gogh was DUTCH so you pronounce it the Dutch way, not any way you decide YOU want to pronounce it.\
And the only person who pronounces "Liza" as "Leeza" is Liza herself in that TERRIBLE Kander and Ebb song. No one has called her Leeza since 1972 -- boy you must be old!
So must you, R3.
I''ve never heard anyone other than Americans pronounce it Goe, and Europeans (especially Dutch) think it''s either weird, offensive or funny that Yanks say it that way. In Britain it''s usually pronounced to sort of rhyme with cough, which isn''t correct (hence why newsreaders are told not to say it that way anymore), but it''s closer than Goe.
[quote]Just pronounce it Van GOE, douchebags.\
On a related note, it never fails to make me laugh that Americans pronounce Notre Dame as NOTER DAYEM. It is hard to fathom such unbelievable ignorance.
Notre Dame says the official pronounciation is NOTER Dame. %0D\
If you really want to be correct you can call it by its actual name, Notre Dame du Lac.
I pronounce the university''s name as R6 notes, but in the context of the cathedral I use the French pronunciation.\
Those are conventional pronunciations. If one''s goal in speaking is to be understood rather than to support pretenses, it seems a rational way to go. I''m not sure how that constitutes ignorance.
[quote]Notre Dame says the official pronounciation is NOTER Dame. \
Yes, because they are stupid Americans. And catholics.
Dear deluded OP: pronouncing that name as ''Van Goe'' is as wrong as pronouncing Gouda cheese ''goooda''.\
Both words are Dutch, and are constantly mispronounced by stupid, arrogant Americans. \
Van Gogh is pronouned ''Fun Gocchhhhh'' - ''fun'' as in the English word, ''fun''. The ''ch'' sound, meanwhile, is typical for Dutch and German. It is produced at the back of your mouth -- try clearing your throat, it''s essentially the same sound.\
However, ''ch'' is uttered more softly than a throat clearing, so you''ll have to practice a bit.\
Gouda, in case you want to know, is pronounce ''gowduh''.
Please say it right.
I learned something today. Thank you.
[quote]Those are conventional pronunciations. If one''s goal in speaking is to be understood rather than to support pretenses, it seems a rational way to go. I''m not sure how that constitutes ignorance.\
It''s not as though we say Los Angeles with a Spanish pronunciation. But we say Cartagena, we do pronounce the g-e as heh rather than jeh.
How about posting a video of a Dutch person saying Van Gogh. I''m going over to You Tube to find one. \
Haha, I love the extreme arrogance of this dumbass OP.
So, according to r14/r16''s link, it''s pronounced: Von Hoccchhh
R3, it''s true that Brits pronounce Liza as Leeza. The British comic Liza Tarbuck is a good example.
And a tasty bit of British zenophobia just at the very end of R14''s clip.
OP is the typical whiny US bitch: Why can''t the world do things as we do them in the US?
Whatever. Some things are easy to pronounce the original way and people do, some things are hard and they don''t. I don''t think it''s that bad that people pronounce Van Gogh the way they do. It''s actually a hard name to pronounce properly for non-Scottish English speakers. Japanese people have trouble pronouncing some English words correctly because of the way their language works, and we don''t (or shouldn''t) make fun of them for that.
Umm, R23, the thing people are having a go at OP for is his insistence/arrogance that his pronunciation of "Van Goh" is the correct way, even though it is arguably one of the most inaccurate ways to pronounce it. So you''ll have to excuse everyone else for quite rightly wanting to put OP in his place.
I like the French pronunciation myself-- akin to [italic]Van Gug[/italic] but I can''t replicate the exact vowel sound here.
Japanese people aren''t inventing pronounciations for non-Japanese words, then calling the people whose languages those words are part of, "douchebags" for pronouncing their own words the way they actually are pronounced and always have been, instead of sitting up and going, "Oh some random foreigners have started mispronouncing our words, obviously that makes their way right, because Japan owns the planet, and we should all change the way we speak our own language because they say so."\
Europeans don''t care if you can''t pronounce our words easily. We might make fun of you behind your back if you get a word really wrong, but it''s hardly a crime. Just don''t treat us like we''re idiots or assholes for not changing our language because some Yanks find it difficult.
Woody Allen''s line ... "like an Arab she spoke" is classic self-parody of his own Jewish spin on everything. If only OP saw the irony for his own "pseudo-American" bitterness.\
I say "pseudo-American" because the ones I meet more often than not ask how to pronounce my name and make an effort to do it correctly. It doesn''t matter that it''s perfect, but it speaks better of the whole country that they try.\
We don''t do this with names. God knows the rest of the world does not say "United States" any more than Americans use the French pronunciation of "France" or "Paris."\
But someone''s name, OP? It''s respectful.
french is a widely spoken language and used to be as important as English is today so pronouncing it right is more important i think than dutch or any of the European languages, even German and Italian.%0D\
when speaking to someone and they pronounce the name right I usually switch to dutch thinking they speak the language when not I''m like oh... OK to myself i think why do you bother pronouncing it then
I was at a production of Cabaret and an English lady mentioned "Lisa" Minnelli.
We call Liza Minelli ''Lyzah'' here, like you American folks.
I saw "how-dah" for Gouda
Oh, like the Brits are so good with pronunciations. Ha!%0D\
They pronounce pasta as paasta. So do the Canucks, but then they usually do anything the Brits do.
r32, ''pasta'' is pronounced with both the short and long ''a'' in Britain (it depends on who you talk to).\
American wrongly pronounced Van Gogh - Van GO - much to the amusement of Europeans. Many Brits wrongly pronounced Van Gogh as Van GOFF. \
I say Van Goch (pronounced like Loch). That''s still wrong... but I cannot get my tongue around the Dutch pronunciation.
Dr. Who met the man and pronounced his name, ''Fen Gouccgh''.
Tell Mom those cheetohs don''t fly down the stairs by themselves
You''re lying, R30/UKDLer, I have a friend in England who said everyone there pronounces Liza like Leeza but the odd thing is Eliza in PYGMALION/MY FAIR LADY is pronounced the correct way.
I''m an American, and an unpretentious one. I will continue to refer to him as "Van Goe", since that is the standard American pronunciation.%0D\
The Dutch and the Brits can go fuck off.
Have you ever considered that your friend is an idiot, r35? I''m British and have never heard this Leeza pronounciation either.
[quote]I''m an American, and an unpretentious one. I will continue to refer to him as "Van Goe", since that is the standard American pronunciation.\
Why would you think that pronouncing something correctly is ''pretentious''? How bizarre. Not that it matters in this case as you are unlikely to travel to anywhere else.
R36, is that a parody post?\
Unpretentious? "The Dutch and the Brits can go fuck off"?\
Van Gogh was Dutch.\
You''re a moron. A pretentious cankerous moron.
Fuck''em. You should hear those Europeans butcher the name of Thomas Kinkade.
I believe a French pronunciation is preferred because he spent his most artistically important years in France? And he died there as well?
I''m pretentious for NOT use a foreign pronunciation around my American peers?%0D\
Mmmmkay. I think you need to look up pretentious. I was prepared for ignorant, conformist, boorish, dull, uncultured, unsophisticated...but not pretentious.
r36, who doesn''t give a shit about Europeans, but owns a dictionary
So when I''m talking about Germany, do I need to say M%C3%83%C2%BCnchen and K%C3%83%C2%B6ln to make you happy, or is Munich and Cologne OK?
^ sorry, I guess Datalounge doesn''t do umlauts. Make that Muenchen and Koeln.
Don''t hate on OP. He''s a sophisticated New Yorker; they are always correct.
British English differs from American English even in its standards for pronouncing non-English words. As the BBC guide clearly explains, the BBC opts not to use either of the usual Dutch pronunciations, but to use a British alternative. In America, American broadcasters use an American alternative to "Van Gogh" - the "Go" version we''re familiar with. When art historians and poseurs use the Dutch or even the British style they seem affected or not, depending on the audience and setting. So?\
I live where Germans and French settled. The Germans named a street "Goethe" and their descendants still live in the neighborhood. They pronounce it "Go'' Thee" with a hard "th." If I forget and pronounce it otherwise I get looks. A French street is "Chouteau." The family still is in the city. If I pronounce the street like the French family name, members of which I know, I get looks. People here now pronounce it "Show Toe."\
So? When in Rome don''t talk like you''re in Prague, even if you''re in a Czech restaurant.
I love and appreciate you, R40.
Shit, I butchered that post in every way.\
The url again...
I think one should do the best one can within the confines of one''s language.\
In Russia, Washington is spelled and pronounced Vashington. Hitler is Gitlyer. My Italian grandfather pronounced Shakespeare as though it were an Italian name: Shah-ke-spe-AH-reh. \
In American English, we rarely use a throaty KH sound (like "loch"), so I''d be forgiving of "Van Go." Just as "Khrushchev" often became "Kroos-chev" and Menachim Begin often became "Menakum."\
On the other hand, there''s laziness. For example, we do have a common broad a sound, like "car," so calling him Mahatma Gandy (to rhyme with "brandy") in Cole Porter fashion is just lazy.
I''ve heard Liza''s name pronounced Ly-zer Me-nellay.
[quote]My Italian grandfather pronounced Shakespeare as though it were an Italian name: Shah-ke-spe-AH-reh.\
I''m considering steal that and making it my own.
I''m all for Americans pronouncing non-English names as correctly as they can manage, but:%0D\
When newscasters need to say the name of an American, do they all try to adopt the American pronunciation, or do they allow it to come across as distintly accented by their own native tongue? Because I wonder that when I hear American newscasters suddenly trying to sound like native Spanish or Italian or French speakers--do foreign newscasters try to sound middle American, and if not, why? And why would we not ask them to flatten out their vowels if that''s the way we''d consider our names properly pronounced?%0D\
M&3252;nchen and Köln. Please spell them correctly, R43.
LOL @ myself for trying to be a bitch and having it backfire.\
München, for fuck''s sake!
The Spanish-speaking NPR people drive me up a wall. In the middle of a commentary, if there is the name of a Spanish city or Spanish person, they won''t pronounce it the American way. It''s jarring to suddenly hear a Castilian word in the middle of an English-language sentence. Those same NPR people will go with Munich and Cologne instead of the German pronunciation.
Memo to Brits-it''s LYE-za, not LEE-za.%0D\
It''s also HYOO-ston, Texas, not HOO-ston. And the street in New York is pronounced HOW-ston.%0D\
If you do this I promise never to pronounce Leicester Square LYE-chester Square again.
[quote]It''s also HYOO-ston, Texas, not HOO-ston.\
Locals say "YOO-ston."
In New York, the Van Wyck expressway goes to JFK Airport. The namesake family had said Van Wike since their arrival from Holland in the 1700. Despite requests by the family to radio and Tv traffic services to use the correct pronunciation, their reporters say Van Wick. Their excuse? "Most people say Van Wick." %0D
[quot]Locals say "YOO-ston."%0D\
I say YEW-stin, but whatever.
The Irish word Celtic is pronounced Keltic.%0D\
Why does the basketball team in Boston with the shamrock logo say Seltic?
It''s pronounced "Fun Cock."\
[quote]In fact, most Dutch people pronounce his surname along the lines of fun KHOKH
r55 didn''t you know NPR is the Elite? They created the affected elec-TORAL pronunication and love to look down on the peon listeners from their Washington pedestals as they tell us an event took place in Nee-hu-rah-wa.%0D
Maria Hinojosa, host of NPR''s "Latino USA" - when she comes on, I''m off to another station.
Language evolves locally.\
We don''t call him Ee-you-lee-oos Kai-sar, even though that''s how Julius Caesar would have said his own name. \
For years, Jesus was called "Jay-zoo" in American English, which is a corruption of how the French say it: "Zhay-zoo"... which is a corruption of how the Greeks said it: "Ee-eh-soos"... which is a corruption of the Hebrew "Yeh-shua...."\
Even dead languages evolve in their pronunciation. I grew up learning ecclesiastic Latin. When I first heard how classical Latin was really pronounced, it sounded so stupid. "Vene vidi vici" was "Weh-neh Weedy Weeky?" You''re shitting me!
According to the link at r16, Brits can''t pronounce his name right either. \
Let''s agree that the OP is an idiot, but that Van Gogh is a difficult name to pronounce for anyone who doesn''t speak Dutch.\
And let''s also not lump all Americans in with said idiot OP.
[quote]I grew up learning ecclesiastic Latin.\
OMG, I totally know! My nannies spoke katharevousa to me; imagine my horror at hearing demotiki for the first time!
R66, ecclesiastic Latin is taught in many Catholic schools. It''s hardly that unusual.%0D\
I usually hear Liza''s name pronounced, "Embarrassment."
Just a bit of fun, R64! It sounded as though you grew up speaking ecclesiaticAL Latin as a native language. Please rethink the "idiot" abuse, R67.
Even idiots know it''s "veni"
Conventional wisdom among some broadcast journos is that Qatar is correctly pronounced "gutter." If you can''t recreate the actual Arabic pronunciation, please just say continue to say "catarrh."
Backing up R30 who said we pronounce it "Lyza" in Britain.\
I say Van Gogh like "fan Goch", as in "loch"
We need Former Dutchie to weigh in on this subject. And bring some poffertjes!
"When newscasters need to say the name of an American, do they all try to adopt the American pronunciation, or do they allow it to come across as distintly accented by their own native tongue?"\
I remember when the whole Terri Schiavo brouhaha was going on, the newscasters pronounced her surname "SHY-vo" ''cause that''s the way her husband''s family pronounces it. But what''s the real Italian pronunciation? Is it "SKEE-ah-vo"?
R70 -- Whoops. You''re right. It''s "veni" and "ecclesiastical." Fingers before brain. But I did say I grew up learning it, not speaking it. I wasn''t raised by Cardinals. (Let''s not imagine that...) I''m just trying to add what I can to the discussion. Mea maxima culpa. Now where did I leave that cilice?\
Oh, and to add to the actual discussion, yes, the Italian pronunciation would be "skee-AH-vo." \
And I have to admit that I prefer "mara-SKEE-no" cherries and "broo-SKET-ta" to "mara-SHEE-no" and "broo-SHET-a."
Love this thread too.
The actual Dutch pronunciation of the name (which is Dutch) was VON HOCCCCCH.\
But it had been Francofied by the family into "Van GO" during Vicent''s lifetime, and that''s how he and his brother pronounced it.
Real murkans like me say EYE-rack and EYE-ran and EYE-talyan. None of that fancy foreign bullshit for us.
so, they are pronouncing the name correctly, and you object to that.... why?\
Would you be a happy camper if the BBC called Brigitte Bardot Briitte Bar - dot, instead of Bar - doe as well, or is it just that you think Van Gogh has been bastardized into Van Goe, for so long, that it''s not ok to do it, or do you simply believe that pronouncing French names correctly is one thing, but pronouncing Dutch names correctly is douch-ey.\
South of Los Angeles is a city named "San Pedro".%0D\
But it is pronounced San-Peedro. Never understood that.
It's ludicrous to expect non-Americans to even know what pronounciations America has invented for foreign words, much less to suddenly switch to using the after centuries of pronouncing them their own way. I was in my late teens before I visited America, and was thrown by all the differences in pronounciation and all the different words. I mean, I don't have any problem with it. I don't think there's anything wrong in Americanizing foreign words. It's your country, you can speak however you like there. I just literally didn't know most of these differences existed. I knew 'tomato' was pronounced differently, and I knew about a few words (like sidewalk/pavement). But most of them, I'd simply never heard of. Which is fine, you expect that when you go to a foreign country. But I think some Americans seriously overestimate their country's significance. It's not like we're consciously choosing to snub your way of speaking. We just don't know or care how you choose to pronounce things. Van 'Goe' is certainly not a pronounciation I'm familiar with, so why on earth should I use it?