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"All in the Family" in later years

I happened to catch an episode of "All in the Family" from one of the later seasons after Mike and Gloria left.

I was shocked to see that this all-time classic, ground-breaking series sunk to one of the sad sitcom cliches of having one of the stars (Jean Stapleton) portray another character.

In this episode, she portrayed a German lady (with a ridiculous exaggerated accent) all with a stupid double shot from the back when she appeared as Edith in the same scene. Of course there was a big split-screen scene when Edith and this other character-named "Judith" (Oh, Lord!) appeared face-to-face including audience applause at the magic and wonder of it all.

I just never knew this show sunk to this level. I hope I don't find out there was an episode where they all did a variety show or where there was a dream sequence!!

by Anonymousreply 63October 12, 2019 7:40 AM

I thought it was good, because the Judith character was such a far cry from Edith. Jean Stapleton is an incredible actress.

by Anonymousreply 1August 7, 2010 5:32 AM

loved it

by Anonymousreply 2August 7, 2010 5:34 AM

In retrospect I didn't care for All in the Family, 1.0. They were all way too shouty.

by Anonymousreply 3August 7, 2010 5:41 AM

It's interesting you mention this, OP, because I've always felt that the producers/creators of AITF missed a golden opportunity, which was to let the episode in which Mike and Gloria left for CA be the finale for the series. It should have ended with that slow fade-out on Archie's and Edith's faces as they sat looking devastated in those chairs.%0D %0D If they had, I felt the series would have been damn near perfect much like MTM. Instead, they had to go and ruin it by bringing in Stephanie, morphing into ABP, etc.

by Anonymousreply 4August 7, 2010 5:47 AM

Carroll O'Connor loved the character of Archie and wanted to keep playing him. Even after Jean S. left the show after year 9 Carroll still wanted to keep playing Archie. He even wanted the role resurrected years later, but by that point Norman Lear, the creator, refused, which pissed off O'Connor.

by Anonymousreply 5August 7, 2010 5:52 AM

I agree with you, R4. You simply have to pretend that the perfect ending to the episode where Mike and Gloria depart for CA is where the series ends.

by Anonymousreply 6August 7, 2010 6:26 AM

I once had the opportunity to call Joe Gannon, an ABP producer, the "Edith-killer" to his face, and to tell him how horrific that idea had been.

He looked like he'd much rather have killed me (and like he'd heard it before), but I didn't care if I was rude. What happened to AITF after Rob Reiner and Sally Struthers left was a travesty and everyone involved should have been ashamed.

by Anonymousreply 7August 7, 2010 6:38 AM

There was a TV thread a few years back where someone posted that the "waah-waah" version of the theme song as it was played on ARCHIE BUNKER'S PLACE sounded like one long fart.

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by Anonymousreply 8August 7, 2010 7:01 AM

The only great episode after Mike and Gloria left was when Edith died. Carroll O'Connor's sobbing as he held Edith's slipper always gets to me.

Let's also not forget the travesty of the Gloria spinoff. Breaking Mike and Gloria up just didn't make any sense.

by Anonymousreply 9August 7, 2010 8:18 AM

You know R9, it's been about 30 years since the Gloria spin-off was on the air for one quick season, and I still can't get that damn theme song out of my head.

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by Anonymousreply 10August 7, 2010 12:07 PM

Yes, AITF should have ended when Mike and Gloria left. The last image should have been of the Bunkers in their chairs, now alone, looking bewildered and stricken. %0D %0D But the show was a money-maker, so it continued. And oh my God how it jumped the shark! All of a sudden an abandoned child (the incredibly unappealing Danielle Brisebose played "little Steffi") get dumped into the Bunker's laps and they're now parents again! Then Edith dies and Archie is a single parent. The show is revamped into "Archie Bunker's Place" and other characters are a niece (Denise Miller) and a Jewish lawyer (Barry Gordon) for Archie to spar with. The show just kept getting more and more average, just like any other bland sitcom.%0D %0D I heard somewhere that when ABP folded there was talk of having Archie get remarried on the final show. It's just as well that never happened; it would have been just another big jump the shark moment.

by Anonymousreply 11August 7, 2010 4:34 PM

The final episode of "All in the Family," when Edith collapses from phlebitis and it ends with the two in bed IS a good final episode. It should have been produced and aired in the episode after Mike and Gloria left. %0D %0D I don't think that final season of AITF was great but I am glad Steffi didn't have a wise mouth or a posse of little smart-assed friends running around. %0D %0D As for R9, if you watch the entire run of AITF, I think it makes perfect sense that Mike and Gloria broke up. Gloria was far too young when she married Mike and as the series progresses, they go from starry-eyed to having episodes when they really question their marriage. In the final season Christmas two-parter, it's revealed they're separated. They get back together and then a year later, it's revealed that Mike lost that CA job for protesting naked. They were not to be.

by Anonymousreply 12August 7, 2010 4:52 PM

I wonder Whet to Denise Miller.

by Anonymousreply 13August 7, 2010 4:54 PM

I came to appreciate Steffi the time Edith died. In that scene in the bedroom, Archie needed to have somebody else be present and none of the other characters on ABP at that point would have had the impact. By then, Steffi had been on for a few years, she was growing up and she had a connection to Edith. So when she slips into the room with tears streaming down her face, it really gets me. %0D %0D Sure, it would have worked better had it been Gloria but... %0D %0D Another scene in that episode that gets me is when somebody knocks at the door. After all the grieving, I remember thinking there'd be somebody important there- maybe Gloria or the Jeffersons or somebody to lift our spirits. But it was just a cosmetics saleswoman with Edith's order and it's an intentional letdown.

by Anonymousreply 14August 7, 2010 4:56 PM

[quote]In the final season Christmas two-parter, it's revealed they're separated. They get back together and then a year later, it's revealed that Mike lost that CA job for protesting naked. They were not to be.%0D %0D R12, was all of this in the course of one episode, the jumping ahead a year and so forth? I'm not being snarky, I just can't remember because it's been so long ago.%0D %0D What I remember is that Rob Reiner and Sally Struthers made a guest appearance in that episode in which the Bunkers traveled out to CA for a visit and found out that Mike and Gloria had separated (I think because Mike had cheated on her, though I'm fuzzy on that). Beyond that, I don't remember the "jumping ahead a year" part because I didn't think Rob and Sally ever returned to the show again after that (though again I could be wrong).%0D %0D Maybe Mike leaving Gloria for another woman was par for the course (who knows), but despite their battles, I always felt Mike loved Gloria far too much to ever walk out on her (not to mention his leaving didn't come about as a "natural" ending to their relationship anyway but simply a contrivance to spin her off into her own sitcom). Maybe killing Mike a la Edith would've made more sense (at least for me), but I don't think the audience would've liked that much either (plus there would've been no way for Rob to make the eventual guest appearance had the show lasted).

by Anonymousreply 15August 7, 2010 5:49 PM

R15, you're totally right. Mike never returned after the 2 parter where it was revealed Gloria cheated on him and they were separated. (Memorable line from Archie to Gloria: "I never thought I'd say this, little girl, but you ain't good enough for HIM!")

Sally Struthers made an appearance on ABP to lay the groundwork for "Gloria", and that's where it was said that she and Michael had split and he was living in a commune -completely at odds with the direction Mike had been heading in for the entire run of AITF, as he'd been growing more responsible and conservative in his behavior. Not to mention, by 1982, how many hippy communes were still around?

So Mike and Gloria divorcing never made much sense and undermines the investment we had in them watching AITF.

by Anonymousreply 16August 7, 2010 6:20 PM

Actually r15, it was Gloria who had the affair!!

ZIn that two-part episode, Archie even tells Mike that he is too good for Gloeia.

Oh, snap!!

by Anonymousreply 17August 7, 2010 6:27 PM

Didn't "Archie Bunker's Place" have a gay character/regular? A waiter guy or something?%0D %0D I seem to remember that (and him being very cute), but it's a really vague memory.%0D

by Anonymousreply 18August 7, 2010 6:34 PM

What I hated the most is that they completely trashed his character. Instead of having an amicable divorce, which the audience could have bought (since we knew Mike and Gloria had had marital problems), they made Mike into a deadbeat dad who abandoned his wife and son.

by Anonymousreply 19August 7, 2010 6:36 PM

R15 and 16, you're right in that Reiner never returned to AITF as it was the final season.%0D %0D Reiner DID make one more appearance the following year on "Archie Bunker's Place." The Thanksgiving episode of ABP is when it's revealed that Mike lost his job because of the nude protest. It's the last time O'Connor, Stapleton, Reiner and Struthers were together onscreen.

by Anonymousreply 20August 7, 2010 8:25 PM

Thanks to everyone for the correction! I totally forgot that it was Gloria who had cheated on Mike in that episode, not the other way around.%0D %0D R19, I completely agree and wonder what Rob Reiner must have thought about their decision to write Mike out of the picture in such an unflattering way. Given everything we'd seen of the character over the years, I just don't think he would have done that to Gloria and Joey had it been true life, but again who knows.%0D %0D [quote]Reiner DID make one more appearance the following year on "Archie Bunker's Place." The Thanksgiving episode of ABP is when it's revealed that Mike lost his job because of the nude protest. It's the last time O'Connor, Stapleton, Reiner and Struthers were together onscreen.%0D %0D Except for the episode in which Edith died, I never really watched ABP, so not sure I ever saw this episode with Reiner (or completely forgot it if I did). I'll have to try and catch up with it sometime.

by Anonymousreply 21August 7, 2010 9:03 PM

R10, I wish you hadn't linked to that blurry, shitty version of the Gloria theme song when a perfectly great one exists...

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by Anonymousreply 22August 7, 2010 9:06 PM

The ABP reunion episode is on-line, as is Edith's passing.%0D %0D Shame they never made mention of the Lorenzo's or the Jefferson's or had them cameo during the Edith episode. That ending is one of the most powerrful, brutal pieces of television ever done.

by Anonymousreply 23August 7, 2010 9:23 PM

I so agree with how wrong the writers were with Mike. I think they were right on the money with having Mike and Gloria have marital problems when they moved away from Archie. The tension between Mike and Archie was now gone and the unified front that Mike and Gloria put up against Archie was also gone. It does make sense that Mike would start getting condescending towards Gloria and the obvious conclusion would be that he turned conservative since he was much more like Archie than he would have ever admitted. However, nothing in his character would have ever suggested that he would have ever left his son. Gloria, yes, but Joey, never.

by Anonymousreply 24August 7, 2010 10:55 PM

Did anyone watch 704 Hauser Street? I think I was the only person who watched that trainwreck. John Amos starred in it and the premise was that a black family brought the Bunker house. There was John, his wife and a son who was like a black Alex P. Keaton with a white girlfriend. I think that gem lasted less than a season, but I lasted on episode with that one.

by Anonymousreply 25August 7, 2010 11:50 PM

on - one

by Anonymousreply 26August 7, 2010 11:53 PM

[quote]Did anyone watch 704 Hauser Street?%0D %0D I didn't, but would like to see it now. I remember reading somewhere that CBS showed "classic" episodes of All in the Family behind 704 Hauser St., and that the RE-RUNS of AITF drew a bigger audience than 704 Hauser!

by Anonymousreply 27August 8, 2010 12:05 AM

The first episode had a grown up Joey Stivic (I forgot the actor's name, but I remember him in alot of 90's movies) giving the family the keys to the house.

by Anonymousreply 28August 8, 2010 12:11 AM

Just looked it up. Casey Siemaszko played Joey in the pilot episode.

by Anonymousreply 29August 8, 2010 12:13 AM

[quote]Did anyone watch 704 Hauser Street? I think I was the only person who watched that trainwreck. John Amos starred in it and the premise was that a black family brought the Bunker house. There was John, his wife and a son who was like a black Alex P. Keaton with a white girlfriend. I think that gem lasted less than a season, but I lasted on episode with that one.

Wow, that's odd. Edith's cousin was Maude. Maude's maid was Florida, who was married to James, played by John Amos. The character of James was killed off in 1976; John Amos goes on to play a different character who moves into Archie and Edith's old house in 1994.

Recycle the set, recycle the actors.

by Anonymousreply 30August 8, 2010 12:19 AM

Anyone ever see the British series it was based on, "Till Death Do Us Part"? Was it any good?

by Anonymousreply 31August 8, 2010 12:20 AM

That AITF reunion Christmas episode won Sally Struthers another Emmy. Her work in that is outstanding.

by Anonymousreply 32August 8, 2010 12:50 AM

Ooooh thanks R22. Much clearer picture. Although the version I posted at R10 reminds me more of what I watched at the time, on a small rabbit-eared TV. But the clearer version gives me a much greater appreciation for Sally's poof-tastic 80's hairdo.

by Anonymousreply 33August 8, 2010 1:36 AM

"Archie Bunker's Place" was a very depressing show. It never quite overcame the pall cast by the beloved Edith's death so early in the series. Not to mention a few other factors. Carroll O'Connor's decision not to tape in front of a studio audience meant the high-energy feeling of the AITF was completely absent from its successor. And the lighting was ridiculously dark for a sitcom. Compare an episode of AITF to APB and you'll notice immediately. Aside from the nondescript actresses playing Archie's nieces, the cast looked straight out of a nursing home. All the actors seemed so old (which, for better or worse, you'd never see on a contemporary show). So you had a show about a widower with a dreary life, living in a home that was once full of laughter and now was almost silent, and toiling in a dank dive filled with elderly losers. Not at all a fitting coda to a once-great series.

by Anonymousreply 34August 8, 2010 2:49 AM

Archie at Lionel's engagement party

George Jefferson drinking too much and arguing with his mother. Archie says George don't talk to your mammy like that. George's mother says, Who are you calling mammy? I ain't nobody's mammy. Archie says I didn't mean any disrespect. Al Jolson called his mother mammy.

by Anonymousreply 35August 8, 2010 3:36 AM

Loved the fact that Stapleton played another character!

by Anonymousreply 36August 8, 2010 3:50 AM

Unlike MTM, many of the CBS sitcoms of the 70's didn't know when to call it quits.

One Day at a Time, Alice and The Jeffersons all lasted well past their prime.

by Anonymousreply 37August 8, 2010 4:16 AM

I used to watch Archie Bunker's Place when it was part of CBS's Sunday night comedy block (along with Jeffersons, Alice, etc.) and have to admit I can't remember much about the show at all. But there was one episode that really stood out. It was about all the guys at the bar chipping in to pay for an operation that would restore the elderly blind man's eyesight. It had the feel of a classic short story or one-act play and I remember people even discussing that show at work the next day, saying how much that episode touched them. Does anyone remember it?

by Anonymousreply 38August 8, 2010 4:33 AM

Vaguely, R38.

I think there were some good episodes post Gloria and Mike, like the phlebitis one that someone mentioned and of course Edith's death. Wasn't a fan of the Stephaniecentric eps when she first appeared. ABP had its moments, I liked when Archie partnered with Murray. Obviously, nothing can really compare to the AITF years when the Bunkers and Stivics lived under one roof.

by Anonymousreply 39August 8, 2010 5:13 AM

But why did Sally and Rob leave the show? They were on a successful show, why leave?

by Anonymousreply 40August 10, 2010 4:22 AM

IIRC, R40, both left to pursue film careers (Rob obviously being more successful than Sally).

by Anonymousreply 41August 10, 2010 5:11 AM

I could buy Mike and Gloria eventually getting divorced. But to have Mike protest nude and run off to live in a commune made it seem like he had lost his mind. It wasn't the sixties or early seventies anymore. Who else but a nutcase would protest in the nude and live in a commune, if such things as communes even still existed? What a dumb idea.%0D %0D "Little Steffi" was a piece of work. In one episode she's caught with a cache of stolen items. She claims she only took them as remembrances because having been shuffled from place to place her whole life she figured she'd eventually have to leave and just wanted tokens to remember people. Archie wants to punish her for the thefts but dingdong Edith prevents that from happening. In an episode of "Archie Bunker's Place" Archie finds pot in his house. He assumes it belongs to his niece Billie, so he asks her to leave. But it turns out the pot belongs to Little Steffi! I don't know how the show ended, but evidently Little Steffi was a pot smoking 13 or 14 year old child. Yes, Little Steffi was quite something; stealing and taking drugs before she's even 15 years old. If the show had continued she probably would have gotten pregnant at 17 and then Archie would have to be responsible for that child as well. I hated Little Steffi!

by Anonymousreply 42August 10, 2010 3:25 PM

R13 Denise Miller is now working at Saks Fifth Avenue in Beverly Hills. I used to love her on "Fish" and in the TV movie 'Sooner or Later" starring Rex Smith.

by Anonymousreply 43June 3, 2013 1:45 AM

Dean Scofield played Fred, the young gay waiter. He was the nephew of Anne Meara's Veronica.

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by Anonymousreply 44June 3, 2013 3:41 AM

I used to love Denise Miller. I always thought she was so pretty. I'm surprised she still hasn't continued acting.

by Anonymousreply 45June 3, 2013 4:39 PM

RIP Jean.

by Anonymousreply 46June 3, 2013 4:46 PM

I think most shows doing 20 or more episodes a year run out of material in year 5 or 6 and should stop when they get to that magic 100-ish number for syndication.

So many shows I loved at one point or another overstayed their welcome. AITF was one, One Day At A Time, Designing Women - more recently, Grey's Anatomy.

Bea Arthur at least had the wisdom twice to realize enough was enough, first with Maude and then with GG.

by Anonymousreply 47June 3, 2013 5:50 PM

R47, Bea was two years too late on GG.

by Anonymousreply 48June 3, 2013 6:16 PM

Gloria wasn't cancelled because of low ratings. It was cancelled because of a falling out with Carol O'Connor and the producers of Gloria. He practically became a stalker about helping with the show and acting like he should have some kind of input. So the producers cut him out of the creative process, gave Joey a dog, named the dog Archie, and it really pissed off Carol O'Connor.

Then they cancelled Gloria to be rid of the hassle. Gloria had pretty good ratings for a first season show. It ranked number 18 at the end of it's season. Consistently climbing each week. It could have gone places.

by Anonymousreply 49October 22, 2014 1:17 AM

I can't imagine ABP being cancelled while Gloria still being on the air and thriving. I think the characters and show were a product of the 70s and especially without Reiner and Stapleton there was no reason to continue each show. I hardly remember ABP but remember the last year of AITF being quite bad. Edith became even more shrill and annoying and the show became so contrived and pointless.

by Anonymousreply 50October 22, 2014 2:03 AM

And ABP had Anne Meara. That unfunny hack could kill anything. Plus ABP had to be the dreariest show ever made. It made Mel's Diner look like Studio 54.

by Anonymousreply 51October 22, 2014 2:44 AM

What was the name of the chubby 20 something relative?

by Anonymousreply 52October 22, 2014 3:04 AM

R51, thank you. Always thought it but I had just never dared say that out loud. I have never EVER found anything that came out of Anne Meara's mouth funny. I don't know that she is a total hack but I never understood the appeal. At all. Jerry Stiller hit comedy gold as Arthur on The King of Queens, though. And, of course, his work on Seinfeld. He could inhabit a funny character. But Meara is the kiss of death to a show.

by Anonymousreply 53October 22, 2014 3:44 AM

Ok r51/53 I have to agree completely. I guess I can't make one of those "am I the only one" threads about her.

Still, as much of a pain in the ass Carroll O'Connor was, I think he was an incredibly gifted actor. And maybe ABP was worth it just to get that heartbreaking episode after Edith died. Actually, that's probably when it should have ended.

Someone mentioned the phlebitis episode. That doctor was the same guy who tried to molest Rose on The Golden Girls.

by Anonymousreply 54October 22, 2014 4:10 AM

[quote]Denise Miller is now working at Saks Fifth Avenue in Beverly Hills. I used to love her on "Fish" and in the TV movie 'Sooner or Later" starring Rex Smith.

...and she will forever walk among the stars for being in "Sooner or Later", in my book.

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by Anonymousreply 55October 22, 2014 4:45 AM

Hacks!

by Anonymousreply 56October 22, 2014 4:46 AM

I also think there were some good post Mike and Gloria eps, including some on ABP. The season when he was partnered with Murray I remember liking. Stephanie was not a good addition and without Edith it got even worse. They changed Archie too drastically. I might be dreaming this up, but didn't he start dating a black woman?

As far as Mike and Gloria, I can totally see them splitting. Mike was a bit condescending and Gloria seemed to be always trying to prove her intellectual worth to him. Like another poster said, Archie unified them, without that, on their own and more years of marriage behind them, I can see their marriage becoming rocky. Not sure I see Mike turning conservative, but I don't see him being super liberal at that point and running off to a commune. I could see him becoming more ambitious career wise and dumping Gloria because of that.

AITF was best when Mike and Gloria lived with the Bunkers. I think it was so selfish and shitty that their only daughter, who they helped so much up, moved across the country. So that final shot would have been super depressing to be the series finale.

by Anonymousreply 57October 22, 2014 5:19 AM

Plus don't forget Gloria got really, really fat.

by Anonymousreply 58October 22, 2014 11:14 AM

It is jarring to hear early Edith speak in her normal accent in the first season. She was also very sarcastic and deadpan.

I wonder who had the good insight to change her character fundamentally.

by Anonymousreply 59October 12, 2019 2:51 AM

[r57]

Late I know, but just wanted to put this out there....

While it may not have been seen in best taste for Gloria Stivic to pack up and leave after all Archie and Edith had done for their daughter, Mrs. Stivic was married to a college professor. Mike Stivic didn't work (and his wife Gloria supported them) for all those years so he could get his BofS then graduate degree. Logical progression in academia for Mike would be to find an associate professor position that would lead to a full tenured profession spot. Those gigs were hard to land in 1970's so yes, people packed up and moved to whoever made an offer.

Besides Mike and Gloria going freed up room for fresh blood, which was needed if AITF was going to continue. The Jeffersons were gone (their own show) so was Maude (ditto), so what was left? Gloria as a stay at home mother with Mike (the liberal) continuing to bash heads with his FIL?

by Anonymousreply 60October 12, 2019 3:35 AM

Stephanie Mills was so deadpan.

by Anonymousreply 61October 12, 2019 4:16 AM

I read that it was Carroll O'Connor who asked to have the Edith character die off, so that he could expand the show's storylines and possibilities. Also, I do believe that Gloria and Mike would've eventually divorced, maybe being more involved in and fascinated by California culture and life, and Gloria finding her confidence and place in social services professional life while Mike became an arrogant, elitist and more opinionated academic--who always treated her condescendingly, anyway. But agree that the split-to-a-commune storyline was Mike-uncharacteristic, and just unimaginative and lazy storywriting-sounding.

by Anonymousreply 62October 12, 2019 6:12 AM

In this interview, Jean talks about giving Norman Lear permission to write Edith's death into the story after she had been away from the show for a year.

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by Anonymousreply 63October 12, 2019 7:40 AM
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