A Question For Lesbians

I've noted over the years that femme and/or "pretty" (i.e., non-stereotypical) lesbians are often subtly discounted and sometimes even blatantly put-down by more masculine and stereotypical lesbians. It's almost as if they are not considered real lesbians, only wannabes or something. As politically correct as many lesbians are, I would think they would realize that not all lesbians are the same, just as not all gay men are the same.%0D %0D Also, within the social circles I've moved in, I've also noticed (with a very few exceptions) that femme lesbians seem to couple up with one another and the more overtly masculine women also seem to be together (although one may be very marginally "softer" than the other, though often not in appearance.) I suppose this is not really surprising, as I have also found that I've seldom seen a noticeably [childish epithet posted by a bigoted tool] guy coupled with an overtly masculine guy (again, with a few exceptions).%0D %0D Would be interesting to hear what the lesbians on this board make of this, or even if they find it true.

• You ask this same question every month, op.

• I''m a lipstick lesbian and so''s my wife. Most of our friends are as well. In Boston where we lived before we had kids and had to move out of the city, most of the women we hung out with were femme and we dated femme. I was never attracted to butch. I love women who look like hot women. Va va voom hot. Sure there were some butch women in our circle but as friends and not romantic interest.

• zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

• Another femme here who only dates femmes. Do NOT understand the whole butch-femme dynamic. No offense, but why would you be attracted to something that resembles a man?

• When that dynamic happens, I liken it to when boys on the school yard pull the pony tails of the girls that they like. It''s just macho insecurity posturing on the part of the bulldykes.

• OP, I''m in LA and nothing you say is going on here. Femmes rule.

• R6 lies. Been to LA and the fat, sloppy bull dykes dominate there as well.

  Chaz Bozo

• Btw, now that LA former lesbian/former woman Chaz Bozo considers itself a straight man does that mean when her gf goes down her is it considered a blow job or just rug munching??

• IMO, women who are into butches aren''t lesbians at all. They''re more like tranny chasers.

• Femme here who only dates other femmes. I''ve never really felt like I fit in with other more "gay" looking women. Most of my closest friends are straight women. I just don''t get the posturing and macho attitudes...not to mention the hair and clothing. \ \ It''s a shame because I think there''s a place for all of us in the gay community...thankfully though, attitudes are slowly changing.

• [quote]I just don''t get the posturing and macho attitudes...not to mention the hair and clothing. \ \ Well the posturing and macho tudes are clearly penis envy. I''ve never been able to explain the hair and clothes.

• I always felt like I didn''t fit in because I didn''t have a swagger...

• A lot of lesbians feel threatened by attractive women, even if these other women are lesbians themselves. Many lesbians were shunned in part because of their looks.

• It''s funny how DL approves dyke disdain, but when you go after femmy guys you get called "self-hating."

• Nothing wrong with discussion and different points of view.

• R12, it if makes you feel better I don''t have a swagger either. I really don''t know how or where I fit in, I guess I''m no specific type, neither femme nor butch. I''m just somewhere in the middle.

• Here''s my take, fwiw: %0D\ Whatever happens in our fetal brains to make us gay, happens along a continuum. Let''s call that "whatever", X. If you get just a little X, you''ll straight appearing/femme, but lesbian. %0D\ %0D\ If you get a lot of "X", you''ll not only be lesbian, but you''ll be butch.%0D\ %0D\ %0D\ So, you''re a femme and you love clothes and hair-doings. Those are your values. Of course, you''re going to hang with someone with the same values.%0D\ %0D\ If you''re butch, you admire what you''ve got: swagger and a ''tude. You''ll want to be with someone who has the same values.

• [quote]I have also found that I''ve seldom seen a noticeably [childish epithet posted by a bigoted tool] guy coupled with an overtly masculine guy (again, with a few exceptions).\ \ I''ve seen plenty of daddies and muscle heads with nelly, dizzy twinks, though not a lot of butch-fem male couples of the same age.

• R14, that is true.

• Am I the only one who thinks most bucthes are actually transexual?

• [quote]No offense, but why would you be attracted to something that resembles a man?\ \ Gee, I don''t know, why aren''t you? Why are you attracted to something that looks girly? Why are some men attracted to other men? Why are straight people attracted to the opposite sex? \ Attraction is attraction, it doesn''t have be to explained, it just is. If you still can''t accept that other people like things you don''t, it''s high time for you to grow the fuck up and purge all that air off your head.

• I await OP''s next thread about why femme lesbians sometimes wear pants and what the sexual ramifications are in southern New Jersey.

• Well, 21 because I am a female HOMOsexual. I like women. Something that looks female, thus the homo (menaing) same in my sentence. I am not attracted to men, because that would make me a heterosexual (no shit) so why would a Homosexual be attracted to something that resembles the opposite gender? Defies GAY logic

• My God, you''re even more backwards and idiotic than I thought, r23. You live in a world in your little pretty head where woman = barbie and man = ken. There''s nothing we can do to help, cupcake. You need to grow up and learn on your own.

• What r23 said. Butches wouldn''t be too bad if they cleaned-up and weren''t so miserable and WEIRD. With any luck they''ll all get a sex change and disappear.

• 24, I am sorry, it''s not ''my little world'' and I dont but this whole ''gender is a social construct'' bullshit. MOST little boys like masculine things (without being told to) Most little girls like femmine things (without being told to) I have empathy for butches because, well, it cant be easy, but at the same time they perpetuate this dumb (to use your tem) Ken/Barbie steriotype in their relationships, instead of behaving like two FEMALES

• I would like to see where I end up along the femme/butch spectrum if the posters on this thread were to evaluate me. I view myself as a mix and quite balanced....wonder how strict some of the definitions are.

• 27, if you do no appear female, then you''re butch. Simple

• R26, are you 24 YEARS OLD?

• [quote] MOST little boys like masculine things (without being told to) Most little girls like femmine things (without being told to)\ \ You already had provided plenty of evidence of your stupidity on this thread, and yet you keep digging. Seriously educate yourself and stop making a fool of yourself. I can''t believe those kind of idiocities can come out of an adult''s mouth. Are you a teenage girl? That would explain a lot. Teenagers habitually have this narrow-minded, rigid "I''m right and everybody else is wrong" mentality.

• R30 are you a KD lang look-alike? You simply reply with insults instead of making a point.%0D\ The fact is, most butch lesbians have some sort of gender-identity issue. I am wary of women who call themselves ''lesbians'' and are attracted to masculine females. The whole point of being a lesbian, is liking the package of a woman. Feminity being one of them, not a bar-code tatoo with a mohawk and a love for suits

• [quote]The fact is, most butch lesbians have some sort of gender-identity issue.\ \ Well, then you have a lot more in common with them than you think.

• I am tall, do not wear makeup and have short but not super-short hair (like Annette Bening's hair in The Kids Are All Right). I wear jeans and T shirts most of the time, because I work from home. The jeans and T shirts are women's clothes. I wear earrings. I have 42 C breasts that stick way out.%0D %0D I cannot tell you how many times I have been mistaken for a man. I have no gender-identity issues. I have never wanted to be anything but a woman.I'm not trying to look like a man. I am trying to look like me.%0D %0D But people call me sir not because I look like a man, but because they have a very limited concept of what a woman can (or should) look like. I simply do not look like the kind of woman they are used to.%0D %0D And if you say that I should change the way I look, my answer is that I don't want to. If I wore makeup, I would be going against type and look ridiculous.%0D %0D How would the feminine women of this world feel if they were forced to give up cosmetics? Not great, I'm sure.%0D %0D I am not drawn to feminine looking women. I don't want to be with a woman who spends a lot of time on dressing and making up. That is my right.%0D %0D Others have the right to be with whatever kind of woman they want to be with. I don't criticize them. %0D %0D So please stop with the butch phobia. I really don't appreciate it, especially since many of you seem to want to be snide rather than to try to understand what it's all about.%0D %0D %0D %0D %0D

• "The fact is, most butch lesbians have some sort of gender-identity issue"%0D\ %0D\ And you know this because?

• Love you, R33. Perfectly said.

• [quote]I wear earrings. I have 42 C breasts that stick way out.\ \ [quote]I cannot tell you how many times I have been mistaken for a man.\ \ R33, you must run into a lot of stupid people! From your description it''s a mystery to me how anyone could mistake for anything but a woman. Are manboobs getting [italic]that[/italic] big that people have a hard time distinguishing between women and men?

• [quote] The whole point of being a lesbian, is liking the package of a woman.%0D\ %0D\ The whole point of being a lesbian, is liking the pussy. A butch woman still has one, even if she hides it under a strap-on.%0D\ %0D

• Are lesbians smart enough to know how to swim?

• ^and please don''t understand me wrong. I don''t mean that wearing a strap-on is a butch thing to do or that the butch is the top.

• Thanks, R35.%0D\ %0D\ R36, I''m inclined to believe they just take a quick glance at the height (I''m 5''11") and the plain clothing. I''m talking about grocery-store clerks, bank tellers, women who are coming out of the ladies'' room as I''m going in, etc.%0D\ %0D

  r22

• lol nice save 39..NOT. We all know some butches love to pack on those fake dicks

• For me it''s not just the way butches ''look''( I find masculinity a turn-off) it''s this macho, man-like behaviour some of them exude. Wanting to play house while they chug a beer and the ''femme'' stays in the kitchen. No thanks

• R20: yes.

• Femme also, only interested in dating other femmes (it''s an attraction thing). Friends all over the butch/femme spectrum - just not attracted to the soft butch or masculine types.

• R33, would you describe yourself as androgynous?

• What do lesbians count as sex, again?

  Clueless gay dude

• I''m as femme as it gets and for a long time I only dated other femmes. Until I met my partner. She had hit on me several times and I always turned her down because I wasn''t attracted to butches, I want a woman who shaved her legs, had a neat, trimmed pussy and actually liked her pussy TOUCHED. I had heard that a lot of butch woman liked to strictly use the strap-on, didn''t like their breasts played with, etc.%0D\ %0D\ All of that wasn''t true. She has a beautiful body and looooves when I go down on her. She shaves her legs. She has the best sense of humor of anyone I''ve ever met, people absolutely adore her. %0D\ %0D\ I''m glad I gave her a chance, because now we are married and she is the love of my life!

• R47, good for you. I am femme and have always distanced myself from butch women. Physically I have never been attracted to them, but I also know that to me physical attraction has more to do with the mind than the body.

• Non sense OP. All gays and lesbians think the same, dress the same, vote the same, smell the same, spend the same, and eat the same.\ Otherwise we wouldn''t REALLY be gay would we?

  time to think for yourself

• I''m a tomboy femme and have found that the more femme I appear, the more difficult it is to be accepted on friendly terms by butch lesbians. \ \ I think it''s partially "swagger"/overcompensating.\ \ I think part of it is fear that I will think less of them, so they are beating me to the punch.

• R22, you sound hot!\ \ Some of you femmes sound like cunts. What''s wrong with you? You''re welcome to your attractions and no one begrudges you the right to date girls who look and act like you. But must you dehumanize others and call them "it" or pass judgment on a woman because she has a different style than you? Grow the fuck up.

  Sporty femme who loves all types of women

• Agree with you r51.

• [quote] For me it''s not just the way butches ''look''( I find masculinity a turn-off) it''s this macho, man-like behaviour some of them exude. Wanting to play house while they chug a beer and the ''femme'' stays in the kitchen. No thanks%0D\ %0D\ %0D\ I find it interesting that you "attack" the butches for doing this but give the femmes who are willing to play the silly game a complete pass. Why not being pissed off at them as well? As long as there are women who are willing to be a housefrau there will be butches who like it. And vice versa.

• r4, you are dumb and have a lot to learn about life and people.

  A ''femme'' lesbian.

• 53, trust me I think they''re hypocrites too..or latent heterosexuals

• "Sporty femme who loves all types of women"\ \ Yeah, and you still refer to other women as "cunts" How misogynistic of you. You sound charming.*eyeroll*

• [quote]But must you dehumanize others and call them "it" or pass judgment on a woman because she has a different style than you? Grow the fuck up.\ \ But you dehumanize other women by calling them "cunts" or pass judgment on another woman because she doesn''t share your opinion. Tsk. tsk. Grow the fuck up.

• femme or attractive androgynous%0D\ %0D\ I guess most people are most comfortable with their ''type''

• Listen to what Howard Stern says about masculine females

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYBBn2sjJEw&feature=related

• Mwahahahaaaa. Go Howard! I love when Robin wonders how dyky Ellen would be if she weren''t in showbiz. I can''t wait to hear Sterns take on Portia taking Ellen''s last name. Oh, gawd, he is just going to nail em!!!

• I hate when those types make it seem like "femmes" are women but they are...? Something else. "Femmes are weak", naive, catching the vapors, etc Basically what male chauvinists say about women in general. It''s if they forget that they have the exact same biology as other women. Disclaimer: I''m talking about the specific type the OP was referring to NOT Dom/Aggressive/misc labeled lesbians, lesbians without labels, or whatever. I could post some videos that is taking about exactly what I mean and what the OP was more so talking about but I don''t want to put anyone out there. It''s tied into the "not a real" lesbian thing though, because I''ve heard this as well. Some dom-lesbians act like feminine women are opened-minded straight women.

• R61, do you mean weirdos like that whatsit, Lesbian dad?

• I hadn''t been up long when I wrote that, excuse my typos please. It''s a mess. Lesbian dad? Hmm..Not sure who you mean, link? And let me re-reiterate this isn''t about butch women but a specific brand.

• r20 no I have felt that way too. If I wanted a man, I would go for a real one with a real penis!

• bulldykes shame me!

• R63:\ \ This thigamabob. Her wife is a latent heterosexual. These two role play the butch/femme thing the hilt, baby.

  http://www.lesbiandad.net/

  their poor kids

• What did Howard Stern and Robin say, r59? Can''t access the clip. Stern hates Ellen, right?

• Hate to say, but God Howard made me laugh, and I do think alot of butch lesbians wish they had cocks (nothing wrong with it,) but just admit you rather be a bloke (if that''s the case)%0D

• Here''s a better question for the lesbians:%0D\ %0D\ Does no one think it''s ironic that ELIZABETH MITCHELL has been nominated for an Emmy, and in the same catagory as LILY TOMLIN? I''d think that would be lesbi-chum for weeks. DL has-been or not, that''s just damn funny.

  http://www.emmys.com/nominations?tid=68

• stern is right on! butch dykes want to be men! I am so sick of seeing them in the bars. They are low class, ugly and very mean

• Thank God the femme/ butch dynamic is going the way of the mullet! If I wanted a man I would go for a real one with a real dick!

• I'm a lipstick lesbian and am attracted to liptick and femme. I guess some people are attracted to the more dominant looking and maybe acting type of girl. Personally i don't understand it. I fancy girls, in every sense of the word. but that means i want a girl that looks, acts and maybe even talks like a girl. But it's all personal and there is no explanation, so i have no problem with them at all! Just wish there was more feminine lesbians where i lived :(

  anonymous

• [quote]but that means i want a girl that looks, acts and maybe even talks like a girl By saying that you're implying that butch girls are not girls. And it comes so naturally to you that you don't seem to realize how ridiculous and offensive that is. You know what? There is no rules book of how to be or look or sound like a woman. Having a uterus means being a woman, and that's about it. You seem to have internalized all the ridiculous, strict and deshumanizing gender rules of society and you're now living in this heterosexualized, narrow minded mindset that makes you sound like a bigot and reduces your dating life to zero. The day you understand that people are people, maybe you'll get a date. Sorry for being harsh, but that shit was old in the nineties, and it is old now. Grow the fuck up and emancipate yourself from that sexist bullshit. You're a lesbian for god's sake, leave that shit to the straights.

• [quote]Having a uterus means being a woman, and that's about it. How about women who have had a hysterectomy?

• Ok. XX chromosomes, if you want to be that dense.

• How can I tell R75, should I get my partner tested?

• I think that the first thing you should get tested in your case is your IQ. No wonder some people never get laid in here.

• The butch-femme dynamic does not translate over into gay male relationships. Masculinity is the ideal, and most gay guys feel that a feminine man is an erection-killer. Not saying it's right, but come on, it's true.

• I have a friend who only dates studs (she herself looks femme but her personality is very dominant), and she told me it was because if she sees a stud she knows they like pussy. She doesn't have to play the guessing game.

• Butches are sexy but macho bullshit is offputting and corny whether it's coming from a man or a woman

  just%20statin%27%20my%20boundaries%20

• Depends. Some butches are mind-blowingly hot in a way femmes never could be.

• I think it's the same for gays...as a gay I'm masculine and am attracted only to masculine guys. I could be friends with a femme but nothing more. I'm just not interested in guys who look or act like girls. I can understand femme lesbians feeling this way as it relates to them.

• What was the question?