Unconscious shame over slavery/racism/misogyny and yet overwhelming defensive denial, in the aggressive Narcissistic/Authoritarian pattern? sort of like how the Islamist males know they're 3rd world losers, jokes really, but they cling onto their "manhood" and pride by terrorist intimidation and treating women and children like dirt, with an AK47 across their chest?
Or is it the ignorant, superstitious Fundamentalist Christian Protestant upbringing that keeps them from questioning authority (or reason?) And makes these losers think, that no matter how stupid they are, they're "God's chosen" and are the natural rulers of women, children, and "lesser races."
Or perhaps the redneck, rural quality of life here - a man's not a "man" unless he has an arsenal of weapons, drives a racecar (or at least attends Nascar and cage wrestling), etc., to cover up his impotence and lack of virility? (and like the Islamist, using guns and abusing the vulnerable to cover the embarrassing fact that he's a ignorant loser, right here in the rich 1st world)
Or is it just poverty and the bad schools that go with that (since local schools are funded by the local population), along with a national lack of appreciation for intelligence (in fact, there's an belligerant defensive hatred of logic or intelligence, because deep down the rednecks (and their ilk) know they're ignorant and they're envious of Obama and west/east coast eggheads - fucking ivy-leaguers who use big words and think they know better than the average truck driver or used car salesman?) Never mind that they do, but it's a blow to the ego to admit it.
Somebody help this left-leaning true-Blue resident of the hopeless "Deep South" -- can there be any real hope for the USA, as a whole, if this mess just keeps getting worse down here?
The South''s problems are a result of an anachronistic class system. There''s a good book about this called "The New South" or something like that which explains it very well. If I go to the library today I''ll look it up and post the title and author. It''s really fascinating.
And as much as I dislike the South, they''ve yet to abandon a city rather than live among black people.
Damn, R1, I''ve got that book around my house somewhere and need to dig it up. It''s an endlessly fascinating subject to me, growing up, as I have, as a far-left Democrat in Mississippi. It''s maddening and fascinating, all at the same time.\
And I think talk radio and Faux News has gone a long way towards setting us back, as a region, for a fucking 100 years or more. Pisses me off no end. They''re the Nazi Party, circa 1930, with far greater reach than Hitler and his henchman ever hard. I''m terribly worried.\
And as R2 points out, it ain''t just us crackers down here that are worrying on the racism/xenophobia front.
A deep resentment at suffering invasion and military conquest. Yes, really. I live here. If you are a white southerner, then you know what I am talking about.%0D\
[quote] A deep resentment at suffering invasion and military conquest.%0D\
At first I thought the op''s comparison of the South to Islamic militants was way off base, until I read R4''s comment. Very interesting.%0D\
So you''re saying that even 150 years later, this still affects Southerners? That''s pretty sad.%0D\
My answer to the op''s question is simple: ignorance. Ignorance towards other races, ignorance about other points of view, and a lack of education, in general.%0D\
People can''t move forward without a broader knowledge of the outside world. And even with that broader knowledge, a stubborn adherence to outdated beliefs is the downfall of any society.
Slavery certainly gave the South a caste system and an antagonistic attitude towards race that doesn''t exist in the rest of the US. The fact that it was one of the earliest areas to be populated is also a factor. Consider that most Northerners are descended from immigrants who entered the country long after slavery had been abolished and just don''t have the same passion for racial gamesmanship as Southern whites. You don''t see a lot of Italian or Pakistani Americans driving pickups with Confederate flag stickers.
[quote] You don''t see a lot of Italian or Pakistani Americans driving pickups with Confederate flag stickers.%0D\
Italians are much more subtle. They''ll be friendly to your face, but behind your back to other Italians, they''ll cut you down to nothing. And I''ve heard pretty much every Italian I''ve ever known to use the n-word.%0D\
And don''t discount Pakistanis, because they come from a real, codified caste system. Whites are always at the top of every caste, and blacks always at the bottom.%0D\
Every single culture has its share of ugly racial, religious, cultural, and color coded caste system.%0D\
That''s not to say that the Southern mentality isn''t fucked up. I think I''m more so getting at the fact that we''re all fucked up. In some way, shape or form, humans are just fucked up.%0D\
It''s pretty sickening.
Still fighting the war, but Northerners, immigrants and native born alike, ain''t so hot either.
coming to you from segregated NY/LI
"an antagonistic attitude towards race that doesn''t exist in the rest of the US."\
The South is pretty fucked up when it comes to race, but the converse is not true: that racism does not exist elsewhere in the US. How on earth could someone think that?!? The differences are present, but not nearly as great as what r6 imagines.\
Here are some non-racist Bostonians reacting to school integration via busing:
Don''t forget the economic side of it. The economics of The South are based on a mass delusion.\
The poor blacks still have a plantation mindset where the Master (now the Government) will take care of them, the poor whites still think like sharecroppers always looking over their shoulder waiting for The Man to cheat them or take their patch of land away, and the rich folks think that the glory days of The Old South will come back and they''ll be sitting on the porch drinking mint juleps again just anytime now.
Yeah, the south has some major cultural differences than the rest of country, just like any region. New Englanders aren''t like the rest of the country either. In my few years on this planet I''ve learned these things about race in this country; black people have a deep, deep mistrust of white people and white people have a deep, deep fear of black people. In the South racism is more subtle and not as in your face as the North. It is cloaked by good manners and tradition and the idea of knowing one''s place. In the south, you are either black or white. There is none of this German, Italian, Polish stuff. In the North it gets complicated because race gets caught up in the ethnic and religious battles. But in the North, the Irish may hate the Italians or the Catholics may hate the Jews, but a Catholic family would rather their daughter bring home a Jewish boy, than a black boy.
[quote]Unconscious shame over slavery/racism/misogyny and yet overwhelming defensive denial, in the aggressive Narcissistic/Authoritarian pattern?
I agree with this, but I'd call it sociopathic / authoritarian.
I'd add that the culture of violence is a huge problem. Everyone thinks it's ok to hit their children.
In fact, parents (especially fathers) seem to think they are entitled to do dominate their children in every way.
Children are viewed only as an extension of the parent. Parents focus a lot of energy making sure their children don't embarrass them. There's a heavy emphasis on other people's opinions being the most important thing in the world; the child's needs are absolutely unimportant.
A good example: when I was about 20 years old, I inherited some property from my grandmother. (My mother's mother.)
Now, it wasn't worth very much. But my father blithely told my uncle he could "have it." They had gotten into some kind of pissing match over something. He then informed me "we're giving that your uncle" and basically told me it had already been done.
The idea that it wasn't his to give away didn't seem to compute. And I was an adult when this happened, but still in college so I can only assume my father thought he was still "in charge."
About 15 years later, we got back in touch with my uncle and much to my surprise the property issue had never been resolved. Of course this is probably because my father was not permitted to convey my interest. I can only imagine the rage-a-holic meltdown he had when some lawyer told he couldn't just do as he pleased with someone else's property.
But, to circle back to OP's question: the constant violation of boundaries and parenting by domination create good little drones mostly suited to the military or factory work.
Y''all are crazy. The South''s no more fucked up than any other place.
Sure there is racism in the north. But it was never codified into law. %0D\
Look at voting patterns. The south and the north don''t vote the same way. There really is a red US and a blue US, and race is at the core of it. Racism exists in the north, but it is more deeply ingrained, more sadistic, more accepted by the society amd more treasured as "tradition" in the south.
[quote]I''d add that the culture of violence is a huge problem. Everyone thinks it''s ok to hit their children. %0D\
In fact, parents (especially fathers) seem to think they are entitled to do dominate their children in every way. %0D\
Sounds like heaven!%0D\
Saucy, impertinent children must be taught proper behavior at an early age, or they''ll become out-of-control hellions.
Mrs. Patsy Ramsey, formerly of Boulder, CO
R10''s observations are correct, but I would add that the humidity saps your energy & rots your brain.
[quote] And I think talk radio and Faux News has gone a long way towards setting us back, as a region, for a fucking 100 years or more. %0D\
And the two men responsible for this - Rupert Murdoch and Roger Ailes -- live at the very top of society. Their families go to the finest schools, live in the best neighborhoods, go on the most luxurious vacations and reap loads of wealth and power from their beliefs and actions. %0D\
BOTH men have been enriching and empowering themselves through propaganda far longer than any Nazi. The Third Reich only lasted for 12 years. Rupert Murdoch, who is in his 70s, was born into a wealthy family who made their money through right wing propaganda. His children are the third generation of wealthy rightwing propagandists, no matter what they claim to believe politically. Their livelihoods are entirely funded by the dissemination of lies. %0D\
Roger Aisles has been a wealthy and powerful propagandist far longer than Joseph Goebbels was.
[quote] And the two men responsible for this - Rupert Murdoch and Roger Ailes -- live at the very top of society.%0D\
I think that both of those cunts should be beheaded in a public square by a guillotine, as an example to all future greedy corporate pigs.%0D\
They profit from destroying our country, and they''re not even Americans!%0D\
They should not only be beheaded, but then quartered and left to be eaten by dogs. And even THAT''S too good for them.
[quote][R10]''s observations are correct, but I would add that the humidity saps your energy & rots your brain.\
And let''s add the curious tradition of tolerating massive political corruption at every level while we''re at it.\
The OP asked why the South was so fucked up, but the real mystery is how it functions as well as it does.
Roger Ailes is American. He is from Ohio.%0D\
Interesting fact - he is a hemophiliac.
You know, I copied the info that Ailes is hemophiliac from wikipedisa. I did a search and found a few mentions of Ailes hemophilia. But I sincerely doubt he is a serious hemophiliac. He probably has von Willebrands or a very mild Type A Factor VIII deficiency or mild Factor IX deficiency. %0D\
He was born in 1940. I have never known someone with moderate or severe hemophilia to survive from 1940 to the present day.
The South is pretty fucked up, but i always think it odd that some northerners point to it as if racism, political corruption, poverty, poor education, etc are problems totally unknown in their part of the country.\
Yeesh, someone on this thread said that racism didn''t exist outside of the south!!
It is pretty funny that Nazi Germany''s propagandists had a much shorter heyday that the propagandists in the US.
[quote] The OP asked why the South was so fucked up, but the real mystery is how it functions as well as it does.%0D\
It''s because everybody knows their place, sweetie! Now be a dear and get me another glass of sweet tea, would ya'', darlin''?%0D\
Thanks evah so much.
It''s religion, yes. Also boredom and heat. As for the racism and misogyny, there''s plenty of it here at the DL.
Dear Editor Sir,\
do kindly remove Mr. OP''s indelicate thraid and forever banish him to the nawthon secshun of Flames and Freaks with the other rivahboat mashas and scoundrels. I will also, most kindly, begin preparations to have his name removed from the Junior League''s late summah invitation list.\
Sissy (Cheryl''s Cousin from Vicksburg)
Yes, the authoritarian culture makes them particularly susceptible to religion.\
Religion in turn replaces an interest in education-- thus the shitty schools. (How I wish I had spent Sunday mornings as a child in Spanish class instead of at church.)\
It''s a vicious cycle.
Fundamental Christianity. That is all.
[quote]The South is pretty fucked up, but i always think it odd that some northerners point to it as if racism, political corruption, poverty, poor education, etc are problems totally unknown in their part of the country.\
Of course all those things exist everywhere. Individually, some are more common in the North than the South (Chicago for example).\
But it''s like Taco Bell--there''s just a few basic ingredients, but it''s how they''re combined that makes the difference between a taco and a burrito.\
The South has a unique mix of the common ingredients that you won''t find anywhere else. Now don''t get me wrong, I''m not saying the South is better or worse than anywhere else, just different.\
I''ll take a Southerner over a Utah Mormon any day of the week.
The South is becoming a magnet for Indians like Bobby Jindal of Louisiana or Nikki Haley of South Carolina because they share the South''s same caste instincts.
"The OP asked why the South was so fucked up, but the real mystery is how it functions as well as it does." %0D\
Yes, that''s what I want to know too. %0D\
Aggressive Narcissistic/Authoritarian pattern,political corruption, poverty, poor education, culture of violence, energy sapping & brain rotting heat/humidity are the main characteristic of my country and yet, despite being oil rich, it''s INFINITELY worse than any Southern US state. %0D
How DARE you subject the charms of our beloved Dixie to the degradations of your phosphorus lamps and harsh dialectics. You cannot know us if you presume to investigate with a STICK. You cannot presume to understanding if your notion of any culture comes from driving through, watching cable television and considering every ugly, uninformed judgment to be a paragon of your superior morality.
People in the South simply delight in being backwards. There is this odd aggressive pigheadedness-that I suppose is left over from the days when the region was almost completely agrarian--that delights in scoffing at logic and authority and anything foreign to personal experience. When you get into the really rural parts of the deep south, this attitude is endemic. (I saw a note on someone''s facebook page complaining about the sort of rural southerner who would grab their gun if you looked at their potato chip bag the wrong way. That just about describes the attitude I''m talking about.) I''d guess that a lot of the US was once like this; since much of the South is still provincial, it''s a lot more evident.%0D\
Michelle Bachmann is from Minnesota, isn''t she? George Wallace was a lot of things, but he was extremely savvy and could think circles around her.
They're in an economic hole due to having a war fought and lost on their land. They then had to deal with the indignities of a new round of rich invaders stealing everything they could get their hands on. As a result, they don't have rights to their resources, their schools suck, generations grew up malnourished and with all of the other social problems a shitty economy brings with it.
Yes, there was Jim Crow (if you beat a people down ie white southerners, they're going to take it out on someone else ie black southerners) but ask yourself why the great migration is turning back to the south. Black people would rather live in Atlanta then in Milwaukee (the most racist city in America) or Chicago. The south is learning from its mistakes. The south is also tired of the north acting as if it's some sort of tolerant oasis of open minds when it's simply not true.
The south also resents the rewriting of history. Not too many white northerners wanted to end slavery. Slavery was the "Searching for Weapons of Mass Destruction" of its day. The war was over resources and economics.
My ex-partner''s family was from the South and I remember asking one older relative, who was grousing once again that the South should never have lost the war, if the South had prevailed, exactly how long Blacks should have been enslaved. I mean, did he think that 10 years later, 20 years later or never should slavery have been abolished. He gave me some bullshit answer about systems of labor and the family environment on plantations, but basically he would be very happy if Blacks were still enslaved and his family still ran the plantation.
[quote]My ex-partner''s family was from the South...\
I can see why he''s your ex-partner. You sound like a douche bag.
So let me get this straight, R37: I relate that an old Southerner is sorry that slavery was ever abolished and I''m the douchebag? What crawled up your ass and died?
I had a friend at work from Phenix City, AL whose granddad, the same age as my father, had to quit school to go to work in the coal mines at age 13 to support his momma. Then his daddy had a blue collar railroad job. Still everything in the South was better than everything in the North. I pointed out to him that if his granddad had grown up in Pennsylvania and not Virginia, he would not have had to quit school at 13 to go to the coal mines, and that his daddy made enough to put him through college, unlike most people in Phenix City, because a Yankee rail union set the pay scales. %0D
In other words, the South works because it is part of a more liberal area which pays some of its workers well and builds the South's infrastructure and employs its youth in the army and sets it an example in schooling. Without all that, the South would be no different than Guatemala or Peru. %0D
I think it is instructive to compare the South with the Afrikaners of South Africa. Both lost a war to their fellow whites. Both nevertheless won considerable political power after the war, enough to create a system of segregation. But the differences ended there. Because the Afrikaners were the majority of the whites, not the minority. So they were able to impose their system on the whole country and follow a socialistic industrialization program to benefit only themselves, so the Britih colony of 1940, so like all the other British African colonies, became by the 1980's an entirely different, industrial power thanks to the socialist command economy imposed by the Afrikaners and their gigantic schemes. Whereas the South was never able to impose its way on the rest of America so even though it had numerical ascendancy over the minority races, they were elevated to equality much earlier. The result was majority rule eventually in South Africa, but the Afrikaners themselves made out relatively well because of their entirely self-serving bigoted rule of 50 years; whereas the South continues to be the undeveloped part of America, and the deliberate transfer of wealth to the Sunbelt by the military and government over the past sixty years has still left it the most impoverished region, chiefly because Southerners cling to their antigovernment, self-defeating economic ideology.%0D
I''ve lived in the South my whole life and never once have I had a conversation that focused on how sweet life would be if only the south had only won the war. But apparently everyone else down here, judging from DL, talks about this sort of thing day and night.%0D\
ancient white southerner
R2 & R4 speak the truth.
They tried to tell us THEN so they wouldn''t have to tell us NOW
R12 has a beautiful and correct analysis.\
White southerners are not so much angry about being militarily invaded and defeated, as they are about Reconstruction. That''s where all the anger and hate was born, not the wahrrr itself.
R2 does not speak the truth. Lots of southern cities have experienced white flight. New Orleans for example. Some quite severe: e.g., Belle Glade, Florida. Indeed during the 1960''s much of Florida''s black population was driven from the state, as was true in deep south states in the 1950''s.%0D\
As for their 150 year old resentment for losing the war, it seems pretty childish considering most of them don''t even know anything about their relatives of that era.%0D
R35 gets the brass ring!
Blacks are not as impressed with Atlanta as you are. They know perfectly well it is more firmly controlled by uneducated racist whites economically than any northern cities, including chicago and milwaukee. And the black upper class in Atlanta are one of the mostly vile, as you would expect from a group of people largely chosen for success by their enemies.
People from all over the U.S. are moving to the South in droves because that''s where all the jobs are. The Southern states have the best economies, strongest housing markets and lowest taxes. Large corporations are also moving their companies there. %0D\
Nothern and coastal states are drowning in debt and excessive taxation.
r35 is wrong, perhaps a typical product of Southern "education." Most Yankees did want to end slavery. They had outlawed it in their own states by large majorities. If the war were fought for "economic" reasons, it would be the reason that the South was increasingly outvoted on economic issues like the tariff, and of course on slavery, so they were outraged. Nor is is true that Reconstruction was a time of mass theft from the South. Today's southern upper class was born in that era, and it was largely those southerners who had betrayed the South by stockpilling cotton or smuggling it to the union for gold during the war, who were able to establish themselves on top after the war (such as the Inmans of Atlanta). The south did decline economically after the war, due to blacks withholding their labor and the breakup of plantations into uneconomic units, and the growth of sharecropping. But very soon Yankees were taking advantage of the low wages to industrialize. What stopped them was pass laws and Jim Crow and antibank legislation, as well as the Southern attitudes against education and infrastructure. The South has nobody to blame but itself for its poor performance.%0D
And ambitious people from the South are also moving out in droves because it''s clear decision-making is done elsewhere in this society.%0D
True. Many people with any sort of ambition or curiosity are forced to leave the south if they want opportunity. \
Not all of these people leave, of course. But many do.
I''m with R40. Have you people ever even been here? Maybe this was an early 1900''s issue, but not now, unless you talk to a nonogenarian.
What R40 said.
Nice try R35. The real reason why a lot of southerners either won''t leave the south or return is that they hate the cold. I''ve lived in the south 7 years now and have spoken to a lot of people about this. They simply can''t stand it.
quote[What the real reason the South's so fucked up?]
Who says the south is fucked up? Memphis, Charleston, NO, ATL, south beach, are great personality metro areas with lots to see, eat and do. I am black and I can tell you, many blacks are moving back to the land and homes left to them by grand parents or are just investing in homes in the south. If you have a degree or savings or a trade of some sort, the south is a great choice for some people. Families and or couples do well. Not so much if you are single. The standard of living for a couple of gay guys or women who have the ability to make a living either from home or in the local college or some type of trade is phenomenal. I know of a black gay couple who moved to South Carolina near the shore who have built their own home, have a boat, 2 acres of land, grow their own vegetables, and are thinking about horses. I fucking love their life. Whenever they want for night life and a little more gay 'affectation' then they fly to NYC or DC. However, they don't get much chance to get lonely since most of their friends, including me, are always visiting.
[quote]What the real reason the South''s so fucked up?
[quote]Blacks are not as impressed with Atlanta as you are. They know perfectly well it is more firmly controlled by uneducated racist whites economically than any northern cities, including chicago and milwaukee. And the black upper class in Atlanta are one of the mostly vile, as you would expect from a group of people largely chosen for success by their enemies.\
But, Atlanta certainly is a black mecca. Blacks move there from all over and they have success at all levels. You find so many black doctors, dentists, professors and other professionals. You''ll find tons of gay/lesbian blacks, and simply a lot of black anything. Part of this is simply the enormous population.\
I don''t know anything the about the true black upper class in Atlanta, not simply the well-off black professional class. \
I thought blacks had a decent amount of power politically, but I wouldn''t be surprised if whites actually run the show.
Satan''s Jizz in a cup
Lots of reasons why people don''t leave the South, both white and African-Americans (and others), and not just the fear of cold weather.\
Housing prices are generally much lower; there''s a friendliness that people who grow up here are accustomed to (yes, even between the races) that you don''t find elsewhere. Well, there''s friendliness elsewhere, but there''s a special gushy sugary accepting kind of thing going on that I haven''t found as much in my travels
r53 and r46, please do not entice these Yankee queens into liking the Southern lifestyle. They are the ones who get a taste of warmer weather and a less stressful life. They contribute to the horrible urban sprawl and usually bring their rotten children with them to overcrowd schools. And if DL is any indication, Yankees are probably more racist, prejudiced, and segregationist than most white and black Southerners but they tell themselves they are not.
r45 doesn''t know what he''s talking about.\
You are correct in your assessment of his post, r55. \
Southern cities like Atlanta and Nashville are enormous draws for black college graduates, so much so that researchers have begun referring to a black "brain-drain" to the south and away from other regions of the country. White college graduates tend to disperse to the different regions of the country: black college graduates overwhelmingly choose the south.\
Researchers even refer to another "Great Migration," migration in reverse to the way it happened a century ago.\
And nearly the entire city of Atlanta government is African-American. If the show is really run by whites it must be in an office higher than mayor, chief of police, school superintendent, most of city council, etc etc.\
I think r45 passed through the airport here once, if that, and now feels qualified to hold forth.
[quote]I thought blacks had a decent amount of power politically, but I wouldn''t be surprised if whites actually run the show.\
Certainly true in New Orleans. The white elite is more than willing to walk away from political office and let people like Former Mayor Ray Nagin be the front man. They just run whatever they think is important behind the scenes.
I''m Southern bred and born, and R40 is telling you the truth. My grandmother was born in GA in 1896, a sharecropper''s daughter. When she was widowed in 1933, she and her good friend Bama, a black woman, started a laundry business together in Magnolia Springs, AL. They remained very good friends until Bama''s death in 1985. I never once heard my grandmother or her friends and relatives refer to slavery as anything but an abomination.%0D\
For that matter, I never heard any Southerner bemoan Reconstruction or regret that slavery ended.%0D\
Hate much, OP?%0D\
What do you think is "fucked up," and how do you define "the South."%0D\
There are good people (and jerks) in all parts of this country. If you search for the negative, you''ll find it, but I guarantee you if someone took the same attitude towards your state or region, they could do just as good a job.%0D\
Among the great things about the South (and here I mean states that were in the Confederacy) is that they are much more racially tolerant, have wonderful food, by and large are friendly (even in big cities),enjoy friends and family, love the outdoors and America. If you find that "fucked up," I hear Canada might take you. I know Iran would.
This is OP and I grew up and have lived in Mississippi most of my life (stints in Florida for 6 years, Ireland for 6 months, China a month, a fair amount of overseas travel besides.
I still think the South is "fucked up" in many ways, especially politically and the religious Fundamentalism crap. Alabama had politicians trying to out-ignorant each other with their commercials insisting that evolution is ridiculous.
Only 11% of white people in Mississippi voted for Obama - when the candidate was Kerry, the white vote was 14%. Only Alabama was worse - only 10% of the whites voted for Obama.
As a lifelong liberal and junkyard-dog Democrat, I consider that "fucked up." WHY are poor white people supporting the rich man's party? Because they've been co-opted by the Goldwater/Nixon plan to use racism and "family values" to scoop up the former Dixiecrat supporters.
I could go on - and yeah, I could probably give a lot of reasons why other regions are fucked up - hell, the whole gun-loving shallow country. There's something seriously wrong with a people who can't criticize themselves - and that's true whether it's the Deep South or America, as a whole.
Oh, and I just got back from China, and it's a big problem there, too - you're not supposed to say anything negative about China, but let me tell you, there's plenty I could say, but I won't - maybe for another thread one day...
I''m not an American myself, but maybe some northerners are having a different experience than r40 and r61 because elderly people react to them differently than fellow southerners? I wouldn''t be surprised if some of these old folks felt defensive or combative about what they assumed northerners would be thinking of them and the south.
I grew up in suburban NY. There were no blacks in my grade school and there were on two blacks in my high school graduation class. There were certainly no blacks in my neighborhood.%0D\
There might not have been laws codifying segregation in the north, but the unwritten rules were pretty clear and as far as I could see never broken.%0D\
I have lived in the South for awhile now and there is much more intermingling of the races than there is in the North.
It''s true, r65.\
And there have been studies that show as much: Northern cities are actually more segregated than southern ones! It''s hard to believe, but it''s true. The most segregated cities are in the northeast and midwest--with NYC ranking pretty high; the least segregated cities are on the west coast.\
I''ve tried to assert this point on DL, and even posted links to the data and studies, but it only makes some people blow steam out their ears and kick their denial into high gear.
The Southern aristocratic elite has been very successful in convincing the poor white trash masses that their enemy was the Black man.
The Southern aristocratic elite is interested in making sure that their daughter pledges KD at Alabama and that their son gets into W & L. They don''t give a damn about the poor white trash masses aside from ignoring the fact that their second cousin from Opelika just got arrested AGAIN in Panama City for drunk driving.
Its a neighborhood, not a metropolitan area. \
That is kind of like saying Turtle Bay is a cultured, progressive area that does not fit the stereotype of the Northeast.\
Except that it is a neighborhood in a larger city that is perhaps not at all like that particular neighborhood.
Thanks for posting exactly how I feel about The South. They lost the fucking war. Get over it.
Thanks to whom, r72? Did you actually read the thread?
The ignorance and lack of knowledge of some posters in this thread is staggering. Many of you have been watching FAR too many movies and TV shows. And those of you who actually live in the south should be ashamed for perpetuating these ludicrous lies and half truths.\
There''s a reason millions of people have fled from the north into the south over the last 2 decades and it''s not because the south is such a shitty place. But hey, if you don''t like it, feel free to keep your nasty behinds where you are. We don''t want you. We don''t need you. We don''t like you.
You just don''t get it, r62; we love America, we just don''t like y''all in The South.
Rest of America and the rest of the planet, too.
Want a look at New York? Think Archie Bunker and block busting.
I'm black and grew up in Virginia. Even though Virgina is culturally different than the lower south, it is still considered a southern state.
Blacks and whites went to school together, were friends, worked together and any racial issues that may have happened were few and far between. For whatever reason, the vast majority of my friends were white, well the truth is we had tracking in our school system and I was in the gifted and talented track and there weren't many other blacks kids in that track. So the GT kids were friends.
We had sleepovers, birthday parties and there were never any problems, other than usual kid stuff. The only real racists were rednecks and their only real racism was using the N word, but they had no problems playing sports or hunting with and being friends with black people. The only real line, and this was the late 80s/early 90s, was dating. Interracial dating didn't happen often and it was usually a football player and a white cheerleader. There was some interracial hooking up, but dating not as much.
Well after going off to college and visiting each other you would learn that, the northern kids especially, were always shocked that we didn't grow up in some racist/segregated backwater and that the races got along just fine.
There is racism in the south, but for what it's worth, you always know where you stand with southerners. I have learned many, many times that isn't always the case in other regions of the country.
Just my two cents to this discussion.
We don''t like you, either, r74, and wish you''d lost the right to vote in national elections after the Civil War.
With all do respect R78, they fought a war to secede from the union. You can understand why it took a little while to restore their voting rights. The ironic thing is, those same white southerners turned around and did the same thing to all the newly freed slaves.
I''m black and weirdly enough when I took a trip down to Savannah a couple of years ago with my Italian-American boyfriend it was amazing how well we were treated there by everyone. I don''t know if Savannah is some anomaly of Southern society but I got the impression that it was a creative, liberal place from the people I met while there.\
My boyfriend got more comments about him being a "New Yawker" than anything else which we both laughed about.
People are going South because they''re growing old and it''s warm and relatively cheap. You still have to go North if you really want to make a name for yourself in this country.
Oh, it''s just the South baiting troll that happens ''bout twice a month. Didn''t ya''ll''s grannys tell you to ignore such people?
You wanna know why the South is so fucked up? Look in the fucking mirror. If you live "up North," and would NEVER move south, who do you think is gonna live here???%0D
I've spent the entire time I've lived here (13 years, BTW) wondering why the "smart" people live in barely habitable places with pollution and crowds and HORRIBLE weather and leave the beautiful warm places with palm trees and beaches to the ignorant assholes who live here.%0D
WTF is wrong with you people?? You should be coming down here and taking this place over!! It wouldn't take much, and it wouldn't take too many of us. These southerners are the most pathetic souls I have ever been around in my entire life, and could easily be dominated by anyone with half a brain, a work ethic, and a decent education.%0D
Then YOU could be living a life of ease, with always a place to park, the sun shining every day, a palm tree in your yard, and the beach minutes away. And I wouldn't have to deal with these ignorant southerners day in and day out.%0D
OTOH, perhaps some of you are just too stupid to come in from the cold. That's the only reason I can think of... Otherwise, why would you allow such a beautiful place to be controlled by such stupid people, while you put up with the c-c-cold and the snow and the ice and the perpetually gray skies of the northeast...?
Curious Florida denizen
Guess you''ve never been to Chicago, r6. It''s one of the most racist and segregated cities in the world.
We should have let the South go when we had the chance.
Former Northern Yankee now a Californian
Interesting fact; racists live all over the US not just the South.\
I don''t know why OP is obsessed over the South but for the most part it''s still a part of the US and is indeed a part of the 21st century. If you''ve got issues with what you''ve read in the history books and have never visited then just stfu OP.
r86, is that same illegal in California troll that "thinks" he''s American and therefore qualified to comment on the goings on in this country.
Never hear of institutional racism, r14?\
Perhaps the South was codified but there was and still is - in many non-south areas of the country - "unofficial" codification of racism - i.e renting, getting a loan, job, etc.
R84 is an idiot. THERE ARE NO SOUTHERNERS IN FLORIDA! The fucking hook-nosed woppy looking yankees took over Florida decades ago. Now they''re all hook-nosed, gray haired, leather skinned, woppy looking creatures who drive around in their 3 ton cars at 10 mph.\
Of course I''m smart enough to know that the only northerners who feel the way many of you here do are the queers on chat boards. Normal people up north aren''t nearly as pissy and petty as the typical DL queen.
"You still have to go North if you really want to make a name for yourself in this country."\
Living in the south never hurt Faulkner''s career.\
I''d say what was true then is even more true today in the internet age:\
If you produce interesting work that''s of value, people will come to you. If you don''t produce interesting work that''s of any value, living in Chelsea won''t magically make the work better, more interesting, or more valuable.\
I''ve lived all over the USA, and the most amazing incident I ever witnessed was at a Suburban Chicago BBQ hosted by a partner in a rather prominent Loop Law Firm.\
We''re in the backyard, and everyone (attorneys and their wives) are just chilling. A guy walks into the yard and says, "Hey Frank! There''s a Ni**er walking down the sidewalk!" Instantly, there''s a dozen guys heading for the front yard where they stood and watched the guy walk down the street.\
I was horrified. Don''t tell me racism is a Southern problem.
The Southern electorate is dragging the rest of this otherwise great country that I love downward, resists change, votes against its better interests.
Uh, no one''s going to answer my question...?? Why do all the smart people live in the ugly north, when we could be ruling the temperate south?
The two most racially polarized cities in America are Chicago and St. Louis.%0D\
St. Charles County, Missouri had one of the fastest rates of population growth of any county in the nation in the 80''s and 90''s and into the 21st century, yet the metropolitan area of St. Louis (of which St. Charles is a part) had stagnant population growth. The reason: whites fleeing previously all white north St. Louis County en masse.
You shush r84. The "smart" Yankees can stay in the cold where they belong. They are all undoubtedly old farts who haven''t picked up a history book or visited the South in at least 25 years. And they are ugly and overweight from staying nine months out of the year.
6th generation backwoods Floridian
I''ve always wondered that, too, r95 and often wished that the retrograde conservative slavery-mentality thinking could have been in the north, and the south could have been the progressive, laid back, genteel part of the country. Why not?!\
IN a perfect world the south would be progressive, to match its beauty and warmth.\
And believe me I''ve tried. It just ain''t gonna happen in this lifetime.
Please stay where you are. We have enough. Thank you kindly.
Raleigh, Durham, Chapel Hill
[quote]Well after going off to college and visiting each other you would learn that, the northern kids especially, were always shocked that we didn''t grow up in some racist/segregated backwater and that the races got along just fine.%0D\
This has been my experience as well. Yankees are also shocked to learn about the diversity of religions in the South.
[quote]Well after going off to college and visiting each other you would learn that, the northern kids especially, were always shocked that we didn''t grow up in some racist/segregated backwater and that the races got along just fine.\
This is a fantasy you have, not reality. I never had anyone be "shocked" that I didn''t come from a racist/segregated backwater with racial hostility. Even if they weren''t familiar with Birmingham, they seemed to readily understand that it was a major city in the South and not a cultural backwater.\
You project too much.
R101 read the thread. Its not a projection, there are a great deal of people who feel that the south, even the major cities are hotbeds of racial intolerance and ignorance. You just had a different experience, it doesn''t mean one is right and the other is wrong.
As long as y''all vote the way you do, all this talk of a progressive South is just so much balderdash. College town or big city liberalism is not evidence that the South has changed if it makes no perceivable difference. I just can''t buy that racial and religious harmony logically translates into votes for Haley Barbour. Liberal southerners are either lazy or liars.
R79, you do realize that if you oppress a people they in turn oppress others. See Scalia, O''Reilly and Hannity. \
The south is just an area of the country. Sorry if it''s more cultured and interesting than Ohio.
R102, I''ve read the thread, thank you.\
Your perception is off. Most people I''ve encountered outside the South don''t see it as a "hotbed of racial intolerance and ignorance." \
Your reliance on "read the thread" is weak - items posted on an anonymous message board are no substitute for real world experience.\
While there is a lack of knowledge about many aspects of Southern culture in areas of the US, the same exists for Southerners, i.e., they have misperceptions of life outside the South. It''s a two way street.\
Your attempt at playing victim of accusatory Northerners is misspent. You''d do better to travel outside the South and learn about regional culturalism from sources other than your made up fantasies of what you *think* others are thinking. There really is no substitute for travel and an open mind when it comes to knowledge like this.
R103, You know the south is rural, right? Give the religion time to die out.
R106, stop looking at everything through your own lens. There are millions of different experiences. Just accept that not everyone''s experience is yours and stop being a jerk. You said like a total bore.
R108, what part of \
"You''d do better to travel outside the South and learn about regional culturalism from sources other than your made up fantasies of what you *think* others are thinking. There really is no substitute for travel and an open mind when it comes to knowledge like this."\
do you not understand?\
You''re myopia and need to be a victim of mean outsiders is not healthy.\
Get out and "stop looking at everything through your own lens," indeed.
Gee, R61. My grandmother thought she was visited by Arcturans and folks from Venus. I never heard anyone tell her she was wrong.\
Therefore, they exist.\
When will you stupid, gap-toothed Southern shits stop using "Well my me-maw nevah hated niggers, she called them pickanninnies with affection" as an excuse? \
You all need a history lesson.
R101 really needs to be institutionalized.
Why did the South, in general, stop electing Democrats after the 1964 Civil Rights Act passed, and why does the South, in general, continue to elect Republicans?%0D\
OP already answered r112''s Q.
R96, don't confuse things with suspect demographics and bad conclusions. Neither St. Louis nor Chicago is "the most racially polarized city." What absurdity. Your statements about St. Charles' growth are glib and simplistic as well.
If somewhere in your confusion and tripe you're trying to say that the North is worse than the South somehow, please at least be aware that (1) St. Louis is as much a Southern city as a Northern one, being in a slave state until the Civil War and having a long tradition of Southern cultural tendencies overlaid across its Northern manufacturing base. (2) Chicago experienced a substantial influx of Southern blacks throughout the post-Civil War period extending all the way to the present. Also, the complexity of Chicago's racial profile with other groups deserves consideration, such as its waves of Hispanic immigration.
It's not just a matter of racial mixing in residential neighborhoods, of course. One needs to consider how well integrated populations are across all SESs, and that gets complicated. Plus the existence of historic enclaves (Italian neighborhoods, for example) hardly is the same in most people's eyes as "racially polarized" areas.
Sheesh. Amateurs and liars don't help their own causes, do they?
A Professional Demographer
This is obsessed OP again, and thanks R113 - I think I sort of answered R112's question, but it's a complicated (and imo, sordid) story.
BTW, R112, it was a Democrat, Lyndon Johnson, who was largely responsible for the Civil Rights Act and he's quoted as saying "We've lost the South for a generation." (sadly, an understatement)
There was a brand of Democrat up till Johnson, and to an extent, even afterwards, often called the "Dixiecrat". Think George Wallace. Extremely conservative and racist Democrats who controlled the south, at least since the time reviled Republican Abraham Lincoln freed the slaves.
But the desertion of Southerners from the Dem Party started even before '64. In 1960, Mississippi and Alabama's electors pledged most of their votes to arch-segregationist "Democratic" (i.e., Dixiecrat) Senator Harry Byrd of Virginia, even though he wasn't even a candidate.
And in the '64 election (before the passage of the Civil Rights Act), the following states went for the Republican Goldwater over their fellow southerner Johnson: Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, Georgia, and South Carolina.
There's a book, whose name escapes me, that explains the Republican "southern strategy" to attract disenchanted racists and religionists - I think the plan was hatched either by Barry Goldwater himself or his advisors, and it was successfully executed by Richard Nixon in '68.
Chicago has given the country its black president and has a larger black leadership and business class than every city in the South and Southwest added together. It is not the most segregated city in the country, R92 is clearly making that up, and as has been pointed out many times before, the segregation measurements made by census districts are too broad to capture the phenomenon and overstate the segregation in places where blacks are more recent arrivals. The South is worse by every legitimate measure. I''ve lived all over the country and actually the place the blacks felt worst off was California, despite the fact that everyone busted their asses on the diversity front. But it was because they were really a small minority and all the other minorities had higher incomes. So southern blacks saying they experienced more racism in the north is the same kind of thing. The North has provided far more opportunity for blacks every decade since the 1920''s and continuing to this day.
Notice that the segregated neighborhoods of Northern cities have complicated, convoluted, sociological, historical explanations but they're NEVER due to racism. Hmmmm.
The most segregated cities in the US are in the northeast and midwest, r116. The least segregated cities are on the west coast. Make of it what you will, but it's a fact.
Racial segregation by neighborhood is a measurable thing like the length of a street or the distance between buildings. "Racism" itself is not really measurable and comes in many different forms--overt, subtle, institutional, hidden, historical, cumulative, subconscious etc.
"The North has provided far more opportunity for blacks every decade since the 1920'"
Then why do recent black college graduates overwhelmingly choose to migrate to southern cities like Atlanta and Nashville? Why are demographic researchers now referring to a Reverse Great Migration? Hmmmm?
It must really burn your ass that black people themselves aren't really cooperating with the version of reality you're trying to sell.
Who is the troll on this thread trying to sell us on the South? Who are you trying to convince, queen? Us or yourself? Give it a rest. You aren''t going to change any minds here.
"Chicago has given the country its black president"\
And Atlanta had one of the first black mayors in the country, along with many other historic firsts: black leaders in the realms of politics, business, law, academia, science, etc. Virginia had the first elected black governor (Illinois has yet to break the color barrier with its governor btw).\
But even so, I would never dare to suggest that it absolves an entire city or state or region of a racist past or present. \
That''s just plain retarded.
I live in North Carolina and you are wrong. You are obviously more trash than most of the people down here because you swore with no reason because you didn't have a better word too say. I can promise you a lot of the people living down here would never once swear in there life. Also you used incorrect grammar with "What the real reason the South's so ****** up?" , correctly you would have said 'What is' or 'What's'. Maybe you should reflect on yourself before judging others and live in the present instead of the past where we were racist but it is now over.
- A 13 year old in NC
I live in the South in a very large cosmopolitan city and, while there are some pockets of white trash racists, most of the racism is much more subversive and many people don't know they're racist. It's kind of weird. At the same time, I worked for a large Norwegian shipping company and encountered far worse racism from them than any white, Southern counterparts. The word "nigger" was casually dropped in the office and they had zero blacks working for the company.
Yes, I still encounter old white men who talk about the War of Northern Aggression. I also think that they're is a difference between "rednecks" and "white trash". Rednecks are good old boys who hunt, fish and like their beer but are generally kind, down to earth people (thing Sordid Lives-types) and will do anything to help out neighbors. White trash are the ones who are still really racist and nasty.
They're should be there. Yikes.
They still consider the south the heroes of The Civil War, so it's not a surprise they still want to secede and set up a new all white governemnt.
I live in Philadelphia, once known as "The Birmingham of the North", and rightfully so.
There's none of that in the North. LOL. Wasn't it Boston where school buses were burned and rolled over because of desegregation in the 70s?
It's the Mothers of the South who are to blame. They bring their boys up to be douchebags.
I saw that movie Easy Rider and decided I would stay away from the Deep South. I still haven't been to many of the states "down they-uh." My parents retired to NC, an area with lots of successful, Northern retirees. I remember the town had about 8 churches but they had to bus the kids to the next county to go to school.
I'm as Yankee as it gets, and don't consider the thread topic especially constructive.
R11: Then I'm a conundrum because my major ancestral groups are Italian and Irish. And yes, in the northeast.
So try again!
I think a large part of it that the south was and continues to be very agrarian.
I've traveled around northeast North Carolina quite a bit and I've noticed this:
There are too many churches and not any other outlets for people, E.g nightclubs, bars, malls, etc.
So God looms large over that part of North Carolina.
The other thing you have to remember is that the south was UTTERLY smashed in the U.S. Civil War. It never had a chance to develop away from agrarian.
[quote]I've traveled around northeast North Carolina quite a bit.
That's where my folks retired to. Washington, NC. It was a "country club" setting for people with boats. I had been in the same area about 20 years earlier and there was a big, fully-lit "Support Your Local Klan" billboard up in a farmer's pasture. Nowadays, it's all car dealers and chain restaurants.
The worst of the southern people, namely the Republicans, the racists, the trash, need to feel someone is better than they are or they will have to face the fact that they are better than NO ONE. They need to blame their lives on, thinking oh this one and that one gets free stuff and only I, the white, "Good" Christian" "Good" American should be getting.
On top of that we took their slaves and then gave their slaves the right to vote so now black people actually get a say in this country. I wish they, including TX would be allowed to form their own country. I'd love to see how they do without any help from the Federal Gov. or the blue states.
You can't have so many people like this around, so much hate around and not be fucked up.
My dad didn't speak badly about anyone, especially not against any group of people. The only ones my dad always told me were horrible people were most white southerners, the KKK kind. As a child I saw what they did to little kids my age, only they happened to be black. Unlike the right wing owned media today in those days we saw the truth on the news. We saw dogs and hoses being turned on children just for wanting to go to school. We saw children burned in their church. We saw evil vile white faces filled with hate against people who only wanted the same rights as they have. It was very easy to know my dad was telling me the truth.
If the South is so fucked up, why do so many of you Yankee bastards move down here?
Archie Bunker personified New Yorkers, what about the block busting and name calling?
Hey OP, what's with all the hate, bigotry and judgmentalness?? Oh wait, did you just become a republican and not tell us?
There are ignorant, prejudiced, fanatical white trash all over the U.S., not just in the South. The Southern stereotype is just an easier target.
Red states in the South and Midwest.
That's a fact.
Here's how whites voted for Obama by state. Of course most of the lowest states are southern except for Utah and Wyoming.
They're still fighting the civil war. They haven't gotten over it yet.
And most of them think Jesus was born in Alabama.
Originally from the South now living in a suburb of Detroit. It is way more racist here than in the South? I was never taught to dislike anyone but it is a different story here. Code word being the " suburbs" for whites.
I lay the lion's share of blame on the Southern Baptist Church for making the South fucked up.
You have to be from here to understand the subtle layers of that statement.
I was born and raised in Eastern CT. I witnessed and personally experienced much ethnic hatred there. I mean truly petty things as well as vicious stuff more appropriate to the 19th century. One memory stands out concerning ethnicity. Fellow classmates in middle school would come out with slurs and firmly held beliefs of stereotypes of races and ethnicities that they could not possibly have had any contact with, ever, in their brief, sheltered, spoiled little lives.
And, yes, there was slavery in the north, in CT at one time. New London, CT had a slave population at one point, as well as laws controlling the movement of freed blacks.
Most of the big cities in the South went for Obama. On the other hand, many of the so-called blue states are made up of red rural counties with strong patches of blue around the urban areas.
The divide isn't as much South/Midwest vs. everyone else as it is rural/urban.
People in the Northeast quite comfortably use the term "ghetto" to mean poor, urban and black. It's extremely racist yet it's never questioned. They just think it's cute, funny, and charming.
People generally want to live among their own kind. PC crap aside, this is a basic fact and will never change.
I'm a leftist ex-Southerner. I grew up in Atlanta, then also lived in 4 other southern states.
I've been trying to figure the South out for 50+ years. I thought in the 70's that the South was moving quickly towards overcoming its horrible legacy... but then along came Reagan, rightwing talk radio, the Republican "southern strategy" and Fox News ... and we were set back 100 years again.
I speak Russian and have been fascinated by similarities between Russia and the South. Both places are run by nationalist thugs who somehow manage to maintain control. Poor education has hampered both places immeasurably. And they bth have groups that like to terrorize Jews or blacks or other groups in the bizarre belief that they deserve to be at the top of the ttem pole.
I live in a very Russian neighborhood and most of them hate black people with a passion. That is something I just don't get. Every Russian neighbor that I've asked, that's many, voted for Romney. Most of them are on government programs, Medicaid, Food Stamps, Section 8, etc. so they have to be the stupidest people around or so ruled by hatred that they'd cut their own throats.
Now, R114, don't be petty. It's good to have a professional on board.
[quote]People in the Northeast quite comfortably use the term "ghetto" to mean poor, urban and black.
Well, poor, urban and black is a mouthful.
I grew up in SW CT. Yes, there was a lot of ethnic stereotyping and I belonged to one of those groups. A lot of our parents and grandparents were immigrants. While it certainly still exists, there is much less of it now as the older generations have almost all died off. It takes time but as MLK observed, "the arc of the universe bends toward justice."
oh, for heaven's sake, R115, get a fucking clue. Lee Atwater was the architect of the southern strategy and it was for the Reagan campaign in 1980.
OP used every stereotype of the South.
I've lived all over the US: MidAtlantic, New England, and the actual South.
I've met as many bigots in New England (esp. NH) as I ever did in West Virginia or Virginia.
I think earlier posters are correct: rural vs urban and not South vs rest of the country.
It is just in the South - there is more rural areas.
I am from the South and do not like the racism. But also annoying when folks from the NW like Portland and Seattle complain about Southern racism when they have a homogenous, mostly white population
People like R151 are unable to observe, notice, and analyze.
If they think NH is as bad as the South, they might as well be blind.
Personally, I am racist myself and I JUST CANNOT STAND MEAN WHITE TRASH- NASTY, DIRTY, LAZY., METH HEADS.
There I said it. I am mixed black and white.
Originally from Richmond which is culturally different from the deeper South. More associated with our colonial heritage. Still the occasional white trash racial slurring but all in all much more civilized than much of the North. Lived in Chicago for 10 years and this place has white trash, black trash, yellow trash and brown trash. Trash doesn't discriminate by race. It's caused by ignorance. Education is the issue. I found that most Southerners love their home state and are happy to welcome people to it. Of course, if you come down there with the OP's attitude, you won't get very far.
Richmond is not associated with our colonial heritage since it wasn't founded until the very end of that period. It was the capital of the Confederacy.
Who can take you seriously after that.
Richmond was founded in 1737, 130 years after Jamestown; and did not become capital of Virginia until 1780, that is to say, after the colonial period was over. Richmond has no real associations with the colonial period. NONE.
Enjoy your Muslims lol
Lee Atwater’s infamous “n*gger, n*gger” interview. The man sure knew how to play to southerners.
r155 here. Allow to to clarify. When I said we are more concerned with our Colonial heritage, I meant Virginia's colonial heritage. We all know when Richmond was founded, of course. Many of the First Families of Virginia trace our ancestry to Jamestown and then Williamsburg. I know mine landed in 1622 on one side of the family and 1628 on the other. Well before there was a North or South for that matter. Sorry if I confused with my earlier post.
[quote]People generally want to live among their own kind. PC crap aside, this is a basic fact and will never change.
What does this mean, exactly?
People want to live with others of the same skin color? The same values and beliefs?
If people presume "own kind" is relegated to skin color then, sorry, these people are *racist*.
And it has little to do with "PC".
[quote]Well, poor, urban and black is a mouthful.
Honey, "ghetto" is not just convenient shorthand. It's a racist slur, and it occupies a blindspot for Northeasterners. That's the point.
[quote]Honey, "ghetto" is not just convenient shorthand. It's a racist slur, and it occupies a blindspot for Northeasterners. That's the point.
Honey, ANY one word that describes poor, urban and black is going to sound racist.
But ya didn't Blanche R160, ya didn't. And that's a big reason for the South's being fucked up. They really don't know anything TRUE about their own history.
[quote]Honey, ANY one word that describes poor, urban and black is going to sound racist.
Yeah. That's why you shouldn't use it, dipshit, And particularly in the way Northerners do: as a winking, derogatory reference to black people. For some reason it always slips under the radar, even for the PC-Shriekers. I bet OP uses it all the time and thinks it's just funny and cute. Odd, no?
I moved from a college town to a city in the South several years ago. I was appalled at the ignorance and religiosity here and I had been raised in a republican household where my parents attended church weekly. The other thing I discovered is that the surface southern charm and friendliness hides a backstabbing clannish orientation. It's not pretty. It isn't just me, though. A colleague moved here from Texas with his wife, and she hated it so much that he worked to get transferred to North Carolina to save their marriage. Both like it really well there in the north central part of the state.
But, as far as the south, I started thinking about the Southern Poverty Law Center, which opened here because of the obvious problems with racism, ignorance and hatred. It has gone after plenty of white hate groups in other places like the northwest, however, so ignorance and racism certainly aren't unique to the south.
[quote] that he worked to get transferred to North Carolina to save their marriage
Still in the South, no? Odd place to move if the south is destroying their marriage.
What I don't get is the class deference. The same rednecks who get in the face of Yankees and act like they are Super Proud and Not Afraid of Anybody are "yes sir" and "No, ma'am" to any pasty faced plutocrat in a pink polo shirt, khakis, and a fake Rolex.
[quote]People generally want to live among their own kind. PC crap aside, this is a basic fact and will never change.
My! how enlightened!
WHY does "ghetto" automatically mean "black" in the US, when in Europe it means "Jewish"?
I have been living in iowa an missouri for 3 months now. People have lost sight of common courteousy and respect in the north. I am from south ga an the people their have more sense of who they are than the idiots in the north. Let's see....most of the people that have shaped this country has come from the south. Don't talk about the south if you haven't experienced it for yourself. Me personally am moving back to reality soon (the south). DSGB
I have always found the South on average much more racist than the North and I've lived and visited many of these cities which Southerners falsely claim are more racist than their own.
But that isn't the explanation for the South. The explanation for the South today is that white males cling to a self-defeating view of society, where they are supposed to be the manly man entrepreneurs, uncomplaining with no rights, whose social identity and role is to preserve free market capitalism. And that's lunatic.
It's stupid, it's evil, it's unbelievably lame.
In other words, they've taken economic principles that should stand or fall on their own merits and whether they provide the greatest good for the greatest number....
And internalized them as what it means to be a Southern Heterosexual White Man.
They have taken an issue which should be in the moral, philosophical, and social science sphere: and made it part of their identity politics.
And that is why the South is fucked up and can't advance.
All I know is that they're the last place in the country to accept, let alone champion, civil rights.
Abolition, interracial marriage, women's suffrage, gay rights: the South still fights the battle long after the war is won.
The South really took a turn for the worse when that Yankee Mame showed up to the foxhunt, y'all.
[quote]I have always found the South on average much more racist than the North and I've lived and visited many of these cities which Southerners falsely claim are more racist than their own.
Some facts you might want to consider:
NYC Stop and Frisk program. Blacks far more likely to stopped.
Arrests for marijuana possession. Stats show usage about them same for blacks and whites. Way more blacks stopped - worst offenders I think are Illinois and Minnesota.
Per capita incarceration rates. I think Iowa still holds the record for putting the highest per capita incarceration rates for blacks.
Black crime. Atlanta will soon be Detroit level bad.
They lost a war. They're still pissed off about it.
The south. mississippi. Georgia south Carolina should be bombed to fuck with an atomic bomb.they are not human at all. the south should be bombed and all the people killed off til theres nothing left.i hate the people from the south bunch of pieces of shit assholes who think they are better than everyone else..i wish terrorism would kill that part of the usa
Well, unsurprisingly, this thread is really bringing out the best in everyone here.
Well the first page is interesting.
I think it's a fair comparison...thr Mid East and south. Both are regressive and filled with fear.
Both strive to keep their citizens ignorant, poor and desperate.
I'm a native southerner. I love it here and think its beautiful. A lot of great writers and musicians are from the American south.
the troll at r180 seems particularly addled. could just as well be a freaky southerner trying to impersonate a gay person... note they bumped an old thread to spew their 'thoughts'...
I live in the deep South--have so for most of my life.
Southerners can be wonderful and charming in many ways--until you bring up politics, race, or religion. Then all bets are off.
We can criticize the South all we want, but just do a search on where the most chapters of the KKK and other hate groups are located. Michigan tops the list!!
As far as explanations go, incest is best.
Michigan is the northernmost Dixie darling.
Do your homework. There are more chapters of the KKK and white hate groups in Michigan than many Southern states.
One thing people forget is that it is HOT in the South. When it's hot, people move more slowly, are less energetic, spend more time in pointless exercises (like making small talk) to cool off.
I worked in Tunisia for the Peace Corps. In Tunisia there are two speeds: slow and stop. A fellow Peace Corps member - a woman from Wisconsin - was constantly bitching about the fact she couldn't just go into a shop, buy bread and leave. She had to negotiate, she had to indulge in banter with the shop keeper, wait her turn while the shop keeper went through the same exercise with every customer in front of her.
It drove her crazy, she was always bitching about lazy Arabs (she had a good attitude for somebody in the Peace Corps..). I tried to explain to her once if she went to the South (she'd never been), she would understand the way things worked: people aren't in a hurry. It's too damn hot. It slows everything down.
Because their origin population was the worst of the worst.
Mercenary minded English (middle to upper class) came over to make their fortune on the backs of Africans. Although they were the minority of the white population they were in charge and designed the social and political landscape.
Then the rest of the white population came from poor English and poor Scots-Irish. The Scots Irish weren't Irish at all and formed the core of the "redneck" mentality. They had already been in use violating Ireland for the British and completely lacked morals and the upper class knew how to manipulate them (into forming a shield against blacks and anyone recognizing the real enemy).
My boyfriend is from South Carolina. I'm from NY. He's as liberal and open-minded as anyone I know from the North. But his family is dreadful. His parents are right-wingers who think Lindsay Graham is in cahoots with that horrible president Obama. They are every nightmare about the south come true. They firmly believe that liberals (like me) are destroying "Our Great Country" by giving rights to blacks, women, and gays. That's right--gays, like their own son. Women, like, well, my boyfriend's mother.
These are educated, middle-class people. I can't stand to be around them and this Thanksgiving I refused to travel with him back there.
Woe, r191... An ignorant, racist, eugenic explanation for racism and ignorance. I really have seen it all.
"In the South they don't care how close we get as long as we don't get too big. In the North they don't care how big we get as long as we don't get too close."
r186 try Pennsylvania for pedophilia.
You live in a dreamworld if you think racism only exists in the south.
NYC is one of the most, if not the most, segregated city in the US. But no one would ever dare to suggest that this might have something to do with the racism of the region or the racism of residents of NY. It's a fact that's barely acknowledged, much less considered.
But it's a leap that people make about the South without question. Interesting, no?
r197 can't think of a legitimate response so she resorts to what she refers to as "humor."
To better understand the cultural differences between US South and North, read "Albion's Seed: Four British Folkways in America" (1989) by David Hackett Fischer.
The North was founded by a mix of English Puritans and Quakers. The South is a mix of Scots and Irish, together with dispossessed Catholic English aristocrats from the English civil wars. Millions of white indentured servants served in both regions. These preceded the African slaves.
There's a lot of good qualities, as well as issues, in both North and South.
"The Continental Divide: Why are Red States So Red and Blue States So Blue?"
[quote]You might think all this a long way from the Old Country and, in some measures, you’d be right. It’s hard to look at contemporary Scotland and Ulster and see these places as exemplars of rugged individualism. Nevertheless, if you look more closely you can still see some parallels between “redneck” culture in America and working-class protestant culture in Glasgow and Belfast.
[quote]Still, there are other forces at work too. Neither the south nor the west was ever dominated by heavy industry. No southern or western city (other than Los Angeles or San Francisco) ranked in the ten most populous cities in America before 1960. As late as this, more people lived in Baltimore than Houston. It should not, therefore, be surprising that neither the south nor the west developed infrastructure – in terms of social housing and such like – to accommodate mass urbanisation nor as generous a safety-net to cope with the consequences of industrial decline. Moreover, the absence of heavy industry south of the Mason-Dixon line and west of the Mississippi ensured the labour movement never had as much influence on city and state politics in the south and west as it once did in the north-east and mid-west. This too helps account for south and west’s lesser emphasis on collective action or social solidarity or, for that matter, equality of either outcome or opportunity.
[quote] The South is a mix of Scots and Irish,
You're confusing "Scots-Irish" (Scottish settlers in Ireland) with Irish. The South had relatively low Irish immigration compared to the North.
r201, right you are. Scotch-Irish, or "border English." They're orginally either Protestant Scots or English that settled in Ireland in the 17th century. The term used in academia is sometimes "Anglo-Irish," which can be confusing as it has other uses.
That is way over the top. Southern culture leaves much to be desired, but it's nowhere in the catagory of Islamic countries. I haven't heard of any honor killings or children pimped into arranged marraiges.
I graduated from an court-ordered integrated high school in the South in the 70s and there were no race problems. The majority of my class was white but they elected a black student as senior class president. I had both white friends and black friends who I hung around with. I live in a Northern state now and I do believe it's true that the North is more racist than the South. If Southerners had black people enter through the back door, Northerners wouldn't let them in the house at all. Northerners are much better at living in a separate world away from black people.
I think the biggest problem the South has is that they weren't de-Confederatized after the Civil War the way Germany was de-Nazified. The Confederate flag should be considered equivalent to the swastika and there should be no statues to traitors who fought against the U.S. Slave owners should have been tried for crimes against humanity.
It's their inability to ask loaded questions which play to negative.
They are descended from people who lived there without air conditioning.
Slavery didn't just occur in the south. So, I don't see where you're going with this.
The North is much more segregated. The problem is that Northerners are racists in other ways without saying the Nword, but will put their kids into "good schools". In fact, imho, and I'm a northerner btw, northerners use 3rd world people as their nanny-slaves a lot more than southerners do. The South's motto is more independent, more libertarian if you will. The north is all about hiring 3rd world people for slave wages while they live in luxury. But Northerners are Liberals, many love Karl Marx & believe in equality. Except for the people they hire of course.
Before illegals, they hired BP in these same jobs for almost nil wages. People like Marissa Mayer for instance who loves BO, gives tons to art, all eco/leftwing causes, yet treats the people who work at Yahoo like crap. They have to show up daily, it's done zilch to get people to Yahoo but that is the attitude I am talking about. Oh and SHE has a nursery in her office, but fuck the underlings.
People who have pointed out the divide is more rural/urban than truly regional (the South just has more rural areas) make a good point. And racism is everywhere. duh.
But the south IS a unique brand of crazy, slightly different even than other rural areas. I think it's actually derived from the paranoia which spread shortly before the civil war. All the white slave owners thought their slaves were about to rise up and slit all their throats in the night--of course it did happen occasionally which only made their fear and paranoia worse. It drove all the wealthy, educated and powerful people of the region utterly insane, not to mention the soul-shredding damage done to them (by themselves, to themselves) by accepting and living under a system in which they owned slaves in the first place. The illness spread from there.
Completely untrue R208, but then you are just bitching.
The South is not and has never been libertarian. It did used to be the nation's secular region, before the Civil War. They turned to religion after they lost because religion offered the same kind of solidarity Confederate nationhood did.
every post in here should have quotes around it, then, "he sniffed."
Yours actually comes closest, r211.
r209's is very astute, and r212 is right.
there is more residential segregation in the Midwest and north east. Then again there is a large percentage of black people in the south, so racist white southerners couldn't avoid them even if they wanted to the way a racist northerner/Midwesterner wanted.
While the south is not the only racist area in the country one would have to be deluded to not admit that their is a stranger strain of racism that exist in the south that just doesn't exist in other parts of the country.
I think the major difference about racism in the north/Midwest and the south is that in the north/Midwest racist will just avoid those they hate. Whereas in the south racist whites still interact with black people significantly.
[quote]All the white slave owners thought their slaves were about to rise up and slit all their throats in the night--of course it did happen occasionally which only made their fear and paranoia worse. It drove all the wealthy, educated and powerful people of the region utterly insane
Can you imagine how awful it would be to live in constant fear of a black person destroying your way of life?
Ask Britney y'all!
Bingo, r216. Same mental illness, different century.
One of the big differences is that in the South, ignorance or lack of education is thought of as authentic rather than as a sign of unfortunate circumstances. Hence, the Tea Party, the biggest collection of idiots and hypocrites known to man, can thrive among a misinformed populace.
OP, you sound very judgmental. I would much prefer to be around the people you are looking down on than you.
Let's face it: the most civilised, peaceful and tolerant countries on earth are located on the Northern Hemisphere. I think warm and humid weather somehow messes with people's minds.
This thread is fascinating
Texan here. There are still assholes who refer to the Civil War as the War of Northern Aggression and will deny that the war was about slavery to their dying breath. They use the "state rights" argument ignoring the fact that those states wanted slavery. They all identify with the Tea Party too and claim to be "strict constitutionalists".
Lifelong New Englander here and it is absolutely true that the North is more segregated than the South, and Northeners are just as racist. In the South, whites and blacks have always lived in the same communities but up here in the North blacks have always lived separately. As a white person, you really have to go out of your way to get to a black neighborhood or interact with black people as a group. We just don't live together like whites and blacks in the South do.
The OP sounds very bigoted, elitist, and condescending. OP's bigotry is against Southerners and people with a conservative culture. I will take Southerners over the OP anyday.
R221 Do you not realize that the climate in the southern hemisphere is no different than the climate in the Northern hemisphere?
And the history of lynchings and segregated schools and water fountains in new england?
What a hoot calling southerners ignorant when it's all about the Southern Baptist religion that is too blame. Whoever started that FRAUD religion ought to be shamed in the history books.
Southern Catholics and pagans do just fine, thank you very much. Gawd, what hell it must be to live with that Bible thumping 24/7. It's mental illness, I tell ya. And it's both whites and blacks that live that bullshit, saying 'I'm blessed" (uh, no you're not) and "I'm saved" ( fuck off) and all of that rapture nonsense.
And who the fuck could live with all of those bug bugs and stay sane anyway?
R224 Yankee who doesn't know the South.
They don't have a Minneapolis. A middle class place where corporations are successful but not sociopathic, where politics are corrupt but not outrageously so, where the rich neither expect nor get deference. The closest they get is maybe the North Carolina triangle (Raleigh, Durham,
Chapel Hill), but even there it is not in the same league.
I recently met an elderly (70ish) black couple. They are the parents of a neighbor and followed their daughter when she moved to Austin 10 years ago. They're from Pittsburgh.
They told me that they felt much happier in Austin, haven't noticed anything like the level of racism they encountered in Pittsburgh, have black and white neighbors and feel more comfortable here. Haven't experienced any incidents which, they told me, were not uncommon in Pennsylvania.
[QUOTE]The explanation for the South today is that white males cling to a self-defeating view of society, where they are supposed to be the manly man entrepreneurs, uncomplaining with no rights, whose social identity and role is to preserve free market capitalism. And that's lunatic. It's stupid, it's evil, it's unbelievably lame.In other words, they've taken economic principles that should stand or fall on their own merits and whether they provide the greatest good for the greatest number....
And internalized them as what it means to be a Southern Heterosexual White Man.They have taken an issue which should be in the moral, philosophical, and social science sphere: and made it part of their identity politics.
And that is why the South is fucked up and can't advance.
This is actually a mash up of posts from r174 and r173 and it makes incredible sense. Thanks you two.
I have never visited any of the southern states and I never will. Those places are just not civilized. They are a bunch of redneck, uneducated blumpkins who sleep with their own relatives. Sickening. The level of racism is astounding. Not a day goes by where you don't see a news story of some poor ethnic person being dragged behind some redneck's pick 'em up truck or hung in a tree in front of a church. It's mortifying. I won't even take a flight that will fly over that part of the nation. It scares the poopty-doo out of me.
I am a Yankee through and through but 233 you need to stop your nonsense.
R233 get a grip. You sound like a frightened xenophobe. I was born and raised in the South, moved north for awhile and now I am back in a large southern city. There are indeed "civilized" and educated people here and most get along with other races and ethnicities just fine and, no, incest happens more frequently up in the Appalachians. I've never slept with a relative. You're ridiculous.
[quote]Not a day goes by where you don't see a news story of some poor ethnic person being dragged behind some redneck's pick 'em up truck or hung in a tree in front of a church.
Where are you getting your news? I see no news reports of this happening today or yesterday, or the day before, or the day before that, or the day before, or the day before that, or the day before, or the day before that, or the day before, or the day before that, or the day before, or the day before that, or the day before, or the day before that.....
It all boils down to the Emancipation Proclamation, which specifically freed the slaves in the South (read it, if you don't believe me), with no mention of the slaves in the North, which there were, by the way. The Emancipation Proclamation should have stated that ALL slaves throughout the country were free. That singling out of a block of states set the stage for our current divisive red/blue.
[quote]The Emancipation Proclamation should have stated that ALL slaves throughout the country were free.
Freeing slaves in the North would have required an act of Congress. Co-operation with congress would not have been needed for the states in Rebellion. Besides, the real purpose of the EP was to send a message to England in France. Slavery was very unpopular in those countries and any plans they may have had of intervening on behalf of the South were effectively laid to rest.
I agree with R233
R2, Detroit suffered riots in 1967 that had no equal in the south. More than 2500 buildings were destroyed. Yeah. people who could get out got out. It was a war zone.
There weren't urban race riots in the south n the 1960s because there weren't large black neighborhoods in urban areas. Blacks weren't allowed to live in the city proper and mostly lived in rural outskirts of southern cities and the countryside.
[quote] Scotch-Irish, or "border English." They're orginally either Protestant Scots or English that settled in Ireland in the 17th century
Well, guess who was brought over to run the plantations for the southern aristocracy?
Ireland was the very first plantation. The plantation system was planned and implemented there. The overseers were Scots Protestants who were brought over to run the place for the absentee British landlords.
When the South was settled and the plantation system was implemented, Scots Irish were brought to the US while their Scottish relatives replaced them in Ireland.
With the exception of the New England states and Washington and Oregon, the South is no different from any other state (including NY actually) when you are more than an hour from an urban area.
We watch the same TV, Facebook Twitter, etc. Shop at the same stores, buy the same things.
People who continue to play this "what's wrong with the South" game are just involved in so much mental masturbation.
Religious fundamentalism is called Catholicism outside the South folks.
I have never visited any of the northern states and I never will. Those places are just not civilized. They are a bunch of violent heartless Wall Street corporate criminals, hooligans and profiteers. Sickening. The level of racism is astounding: cities in the northeast are the most segregated in the nation. Not a day goes by where you don't see a news story of some poor gay person being gay-bashed on a city street. It's mortifying. I won't even take a flight that will fly over that part of the nation. It scares the poopty-doo out of me.
"Unconscious shame over slavery/racism/misogyny"
Nobody alive ever owned slaves or picked cotton for Massa. We can't inherit the crimes and sorrows of ancestors.
Until the South sends representatives to Washington who aren't fundamentalist, Tea Party, guns and God types, they can't play the misunderstood card. I understand gerrymandering, but the South is a weight that slows any progress.
[quote]Not a day goes by where you don't see a news story of some poor ethnic person being dragged behind some redneck's pick 'em up truck or hung in a tree in front of a church.
[quote]Where are you getting your news? I see no news reports of this happening
I'm ashamed to realize I don't remember the name of the poor man who was dragged behind the pickup truck and killed. It happened in East Texas, north of Beaumont, one of the most horrific hate crimes of recent memory. James something; in the early 2000s. He ought never to be forgotten, yet I can't remember his name.
The man who killed him has been executed by the state of Texas, but I don't remember his name now either.
But that's the only dragging incident. Don't exaggerate. Nor have there been any lynchings in decades.
This thread is just another exercise in self-love for folks who feel superior for something they had no part in.
The North has a lot of racists. The North tends to be even more segregated in housing. Also, churches in the South tend to be more integrated today, especially Pentecostal and evangelical churches.
[quote]Until the South sends representatives to Washington who aren't fundamentalist, Tea Party, guns and God types, they can't play the misunderstood card
Done and done. My representative is a civil rights hero who took a stand against DOMA in 1996 while your representative probably did nothing.
Now that your little demand has been satisfied, you must follow upon the second half of your conditional and acknowledge that your tiresome, irksome regional snobbery is facile and over-generalized. Thnx.
The south will not be civilized until whites are the minority. Sorry but it true. 20 or 30 years from now. Once they are out of power, maybe as soon as 10 years from now, we can build it and make some progress. Whites have held up progress in the south for 300 years, its time they move on and we can get something done and get things fixed.
It will be a glorious day... and its a comin'
Detroit is in your future, R251.
I think law enforcement is in his future, R251.
R-251, Yeah, you'll "build something" alright. The world's biggest welfare state. I see THAT coming!
The cities in the south are one thing--the rural areas something else.
Dumb white trash. Plain and simple. Defend those people all you want, but they are idiots. Guns. God. Drugs.
Lived in AL for 2 years teaching college there. Liked the students but hated the surrounding environment.
R255, I view faith in God as a great thing, and people in the North have faith in Him also. Your animus for people who you perceive as different is not so tolerant either.
Seriously - Guns? Look around you.
Read over the data from the FBI’s National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS), which is updated monthly based on the number of background checks performed.
Total background checks: 2,542,796
Background checks per 100,000 residents: 58,196
*Kentucky requires monthly NICS checks on concealed weapons that causes inflated numbers relative to the other states.
Total background checks: 127,631
Background checks per 100,000 residents: 12,786
3. North Dakota
Total background checks: 81,398
Background checks per 100,000 residents: 11,901
4. West Virginia
Total background checks: 216,517
Background checks per 100,000 residents: 11,670
Total background checks: 79,992
Background checks per 100,000 residents: 11,068
Total background checks: 59,756
Background checks per 100,000 residents: 10,517
7. South Dakota
Total background checks: 82,218
Background checks per 100,000 residents: 9,977
Total background checks: 344,781
Background checks per 100,000 residents: 9,094
9. New Hampshire
Total background checks: 118,259
Background checks per 100,000 residents: 8,971
Total background checks: 481,829
Background checks per 100,000 residents: 8,436
Total background checks: 402,832
Background checks per 100,000 residents: 8,388
Total background checks: 129,265
Background checks per 100,000 residents: 8,156
Total background checks: 480,953
Background checks per 100,000 residents: 8,002
Total background checks: 234,086
Background checks per 100,000 residents: 7,968
Total background checks: 1,021,440
Background checks per 100,000 residents: 7,937
Total background checks: 419,261
Background checks per 100,000 residents: 7,844
Total background checks: 400,919
Background checks per 100,000 residents: 7,835
Total background checks: 220,503
Background checks per 100,000 residents: 7,827
Total background checks: 489,078
Background checks per 100,000 residents: 7,638
Total background checks: 919,749
Background checks per 100,000 residents: 7,218
Total background checks: 488,808
Background checks per 100,000 residents: 7,157
Total background checks: 210,934
Background checks per 100,000 residents: 7,082
Total background checks: 447,513
Background checks per 100,000 residents: 6,867
Total background checks: 197,083
Background checks per 100,000 residents: 6,864
Total background checks: 307,022
Background checks per 100,000 residents: 6,711
R257, and your point is, what? A lot of people are having background checks? There are a lot of guns around?
What does that have to do with the south and its pathologies?
The white Confederates defending the south's honor in Selma
As civil rights campaigners marked 50 years since Bloody Sunday, elsewhere in Selma a small band of southerners were mourning the loss of the Confederacy
Paul Lewis and Mae Ryan in Selma, Tuesday 10 March 2015 13.24 GMT
As thousands marched across Selma’s Edmund Pettus bridge this weekend, a small band of white people were less than a mile away, mourning the loss of the Confederacy and guarding a memorial to a white supremacist.
Live Oak cemetery is a burial site for Confederate soldiers in the civil war and contains the grave of Edmund Winston Pettus, the general – and member of the Ku Klux Klan – after whom the town’s bridge was named.
There has been a growing campaign to rename Selma’s bridge given its association with the Confederate south, and dozens of students had planned a peaceful march to the cemetery. They quickly changed plans after discovering the neo-Confederates were waiting for them.
“‘March’ is a military term,” explained Todd Kiscaden, 64, who had traveled to Selma from his home in Tennessee to defend the memorial site. “In any military context, if you’re going to march on my castle, I’m going to man my barricades.”
Selma is most famous for the violent assault on peaceful civil rights marchers on the town’s bridge in 1965. But the Alabama town was also the site of another clash: a notorious civil war battle in which Union forces defeated the pro-slavery Confederate army.
The cemetery where Pettus is buried also contains a memorial to the fallen soldiers, and a controversial monument to Nathan Bedford Forrest, the lieutenant general in the Confederate army and first Grand Wizard of the Klan.
The graveyard has long been a flashpoint between African Americans and pro-Confederate historians in the town. The graveyard has been the focus of protests before; the memorial has been vandalised and, three years ago, a bronze bust of Forrest was stolen. Kiscaden, from the group Friends of Forrest, which tends the memorial site, said they were in the process of replacing the stolen bust.
Sunday’s aborted march to the cemetery was organised by Students Unite, the Selma-based youth group behind a viral online campaign to rename the Edmund Pettus bridge. They planned to march peacefully and respectfully to the graveyard, to draw protest against the Pettus bridge name and the existence of a monument to a white supremacist.
“We’re a non-violent group,” explained John Gainey, 25, executive director of Students Unite. “We didn’t want a confrontation.”
Pat Godwin, from the Selma chapter of the United Daughters of the Confederacy –which owns the confederate memorial site – conceded that the marchers had said they would be peaceful. “But on their website it said they were going to be protesting,” she added.
Godwin, who lives on a ranch 15 miles out of town named Fort Dixie, showed no enthusiasm for the 50th anniversary events taking place nearby.
She described a local black woman who organises the annual commemorative events in Selma as “a race hustler”. The civil rights footsoldiers who were attacked by Alabama state troopers on what became known as Bloody Sunday in 1965 “got the resistance they were seeking”, she said.
Kiscaden, who owns a coal mine in Kentucky, had an equally peculiar interpretation of history. He disputed that Forrest was a a founding member of the Klan, which he said played a positive role in bringing about law and order in the south when it was first conceived in the 1860s. (He distinguished the original Klan from the hate group of the same name that, he conceded, orchestrated lynchings.)
“The people in the south – the white people, who were being abused – organised a neighbourhood watch to try to re-establish some order,” he said of the nascent Klan. Slavery in the south was “a bad institution”, he said, but possibly “the mildest, most humane form of slavery ever practiced”.
“If you look at the wealth created by the slaves, in food, clothing, shelter, medical care, care before you’re old enough to work, care until you died, they got 90% of the wealth that they generated,” he said. “I don’t get that. The damn government takes my money to the tune of 50%.”
Kiscaden and Godwin insisted they were not racist. But they made plain that they hankered for a revival of some of the ideals most Americans believe were defeated in 1865.
“The Confederate government never surrendered,” Kiscaden said. “So are we still in operation? Maybe we’ll find out. I happen to think that our history from 150 years ago is about to catch us.”
It would be wrong to suggest Kiscaden, Godwin and the half-dozen people who lingered around the cemetery on Sunday represent the white minority in Selma, where some white residents work hard to build relations with African Americans.
But 50 years after the march across the bridge, Selma remains racially divided. Schools are almost entirely segregated - as is the local country club which, still today, is said to maintain a white-only membership.
More overt forms of racism aren’t far from the surface, either. Some of the black families in Selma opened their front doors this weekend to find letters containing white supremacist literature on their doorsteps, wrapped in rocks. The Klan claimed responsibility for distributing 4,000 letters in Selma and Montgomery. There is no suggestion Kiscaden or Godwin had any connection to the distribution of the letters.
In the end, there was no standoff in the Live Oak cemetery on Sunday. Less than a mile away from a raucous celebration of a watershed in civil rights history, the confederate graveyard was almost eerily silent. But the mood was tense. White men and women occasionally patrolled the grounds in pickup trucks, slowing to take a good look at the occasional visitors.
The few who wandered into the cemetery – either by accident, or to see if the rumours about the neo-Confederates were really true – were stunned by what they found.
A black high school teacher from Portland, Oregon, said he was especially shocked at the sight of one man guarding the perimeter of the Confederate grave site with a German Shepherd dog. Steve Fits, the owner of the dog, denied it was there to defend the cemetery. “He’s not a guard dog,” he said. “He’s my pet.”
A short while later, Chuck Fager, 72, a junior member of Martin Luther King’s staff in the 1960s who later wrote a book about Selma, happened to wander past.
“They’re peaceable enough to talk to, but they’re very serious about their beliefs,” he said. “Most media don’t pay attention to these folks and I think that’s a mistake. They’re a real group, they have real support, and they’re up to stuff that we don’t always see or hear about.”