What is an example of a country that runs on Libertarian principles?\
By this point in history we have examples of just about every form of government man has come up with. Hasn''t there been a Libertarian government ever?\
It seems like you''re just supposed to take it on faith that Libertarianism would work, which makes it seem more like a religion than a political philosophy.
Didn''t someone already answer this with "Somalia"?
Non-libertarians always answer with Somalia, but Libertarians deny that as an answer. But I''ve yet hear an actual Libertarian answer.
Somalia or any country with no real infrastructure where everyone fends for themselves is pretty much the basic definition. Libertarians always neglect the fact that a new Libertarian state would not be starting from zero, there would already be the massive infrastructure set up by the U.S. government. Somalia is a more realistic, starting from zero scenario.
Somalia was running okay (considering the relative hell they had to start with) They still have some of the best cell phone infrastructure in Africa. It was going well until all the other countries started fucking with it. By sending "aid" (of guns) and installing warlords and whipping up old tribal rivalries. It''s filled with uranium and probably has a shitload of oil and natural gas that hasn''t been officially discovered yet. If there isn''t any government to bribe you have to create one. But yes, it was doing well until everyone else and their oil companies screwed it up.
R4 makes it sound as though a Libertarian society is impossible as long as non-Libertarian governments exist elsewhere in the world.\
If all it takes is for another government to send aid to destroy the Libertarian country, it is too weak to be stable and results in anarchy.\
[quote]It was going well until all the other countries started fucking with it.\
that is an out and out lie, you know that, R4!
Again, you have to look at where it started. Do you think the United States would allow a bunch of foreign meddlers to run our government? Nah, that job is left to the oil companies, but we fight those wars elsewhere. I''m sure if a bunch of Chinese or something made it over our oceans and invaded, we''d be okay. And things in Somalia are improving again. They''re life expectancy is up 5 years and they have one of the highest percentages of people online
My marriage was going well until all those other skanks started fucking me!
Tiger Woods, former dream husband
Wouldn''t the Libertarians in Somalia cherish the "aid" = guns. How can that be a problem it keeps people safer.\
Libertarians in the US value guns more than social services nonsense like education, EPA: clean water act etc, So "aid" of that productive kind would be shunned by US libertarians.
Liken it to this. People who believe the Federal Government is benevolent, uses war as the last resort of the last resort and doesn't think of its people need to be controlled by imprisonment, brainwashing in public schools and using our tax dollars to kill millions of people around the world.
You're fine with the way the FCC uses its licensing to control the media and all of the shit like Operation Mockingbird. MK Ultra is okey dokey. (That's what they were doing in the 50s so who knows what's going on now.)
You remember the Bush years? Those certainly sucked. But hey, you're a believer in a nice strong Federal Government. America is special and we'll get it right eventually.
You have faith that it's a protector of you. That's like a hardcore born again Christian. They believe that God looks out for them. They believe they're special and if they need something, God will deliver it to them. Well, I don't believe in God.
I don't have faith in some bearded guy in the sky looking after me. It was a relief to shake off that Catholicism. I'm done with it, I can't go back. That's how I feel about the Federal Government, I can't go back. They're murderers, thieves and polluters. Any atheists on the board feel like going to church on Sunday? Well, I don't feel like believing our government is ever going to give a shit about any of us. It's not necessary and it certainly isn't benevolent.
The government is set up to change (every so slowly and inefficiently) to divorce yourself from civil society makes you a sociopath, literally.
R10, we already know Libertarians don''t like the US federal government. But it takes something more than not liking the government to give Libertarianism credibility. That''s why the request for real world examples - something positive.\
So Somolia is the only real world example, then?
Governments don''t create societies, societies create governments. I think waving flags and bombing brown people makes you a psychopath.
"Well, I don''t feel like believing our government is ever going to give a shit about any of us. It''s not necessary and it certainly isn''t benevolent"\
You certainly don''t have to believe it, its your right. And for those of us who stick with this Republic and the work in progress it is, fully realizing the depths of its flaws. \
Some choose to refrain from taking the leap of faith that is libertarianism. Considering the real world application given is Somalia. Currently its just as much theory as religion.
The Italian Renaissance. All of the towns were autonomous and people got RICH. More trade = More prosperity. It led to the Enlightenment. \
The fact that we''re not doing our own hunting and gathering is libertarianism at work. Trade is a natural human activity. We don''t however many minds in Washington deciding what the millions of us want. That''s why communism failed. They had like 20 guys making decisions for all Russians and then they had years of unnecessary famines. \
The government can''t read the future. They fail when they try. All they can do is line the pockets of their donors and impede prosperity for all of us. Oh and bomb people.
R10, it is not benevolent, but it is NECESSARY. Societies need to pool resources to take care of certain aspects of life that cannot be take care of by individuals. This fact of life is true even in tribal societies.
So other than [bold]GOVERNMENT SUX[/bold], you''ve got absolutely nothing, R10. Good to know.
All forms of government were a theory at some point. We went from believing The King is a God! To the King is appointed by God! To the Government is the people and we''re the Gods! \
But it''s all a myth. We don''t have any say in our Republic and pushing a button every 4 years doesn''t make it so. We''re not the government. A bunch of dusty old white bankers, arms dealers, oil and pharmaceutical executives are the government. But keep fucking that chicken.
Spare me the bullshit R15. Nobody can read the future idiot - not even the Wall Street thieves that you idolize.\
All they can do is rob people blind. Anyone who has ever worked in corporate America (or any country for that matter) knows that people will do anything for money even pollute, sell toxic products, steal old ladies life savings, etc. \
According to you we should leave our "future" in the hands of the Madoffs, BPs, and Goldman Sachs of the world. \
[quote]I think waving flags and bombing brown people makes you a psychopath.\
i think stepping back and blaming others and "the government" is sociopathic.
R18, what is your answer then? nothing? anarchy? honestly - what then, nothing?
R18, that''s true, but how is that an argument in favor of Libertarians?
R10, do you think that Somalia is an example of Libertarianism in practice?\
I''m looking for a positive example of Libertarianism, not just negative criticism of all the alternatives to Libertarianism.
Pooling resources is what we do. That's how food gets to our table. The farmers grow the food, the trucks bring it to the store and we buy it, we don't all have tractors and acre large gardens.
R16, as far as government, we can do it locally. Most everything people say that's great about government is local. YOU actually CAN BE the government locally. You can know that the guy running for office is a giant incompetent douchebag and doesn't need to hold office. Everyone in Wasilla knew Sarah Palin was an incompetent twat yet she still holds a certain sway over certain swaths of America.
Like Bill Clinton, I feel your pain. I used to believe everything would be different once Obama got into office. I feel that he's just Bush lite. I wish I still had faith in a strong Federal Government, it's comforting in its way.
Libertarianism is natural. It's what we do every day. The order emerges on its own. We don't need a military base in Japan, Iraq or Germany in order to go to the grocery store. Or get streetlights fixed or to make sure our roads are safe.
[quote]Most everything people say that''s great about government is local. YOU actually CAN BE the government locally.\
I do and am - and I''m a liberal who believes in a strong central government. Never in my wildest dreams could I drive the forces individualistically required to establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity --- unless of course you go back to Medieval city-states and then we are right back at Somalia again. Tribalism.
There are libertarian aspects to various governments, our own included. Just as there are liberal and conservative aspects as well.
To ask if there's been a "libertarian government" is almost too broad to answer. Libertarianism is like saying liberalism or conservatism. It's a point or cluster of points on the political spectrum; it's a set of ideals, not specific ideological doctrine.
Some aspects of the US government are more libertarian than others. Some governments are more libertarian than others. I think the OP is a little confused. There are many stripes of libertarianism, ranging from the small-government minarchists to outright anarchists and even some socialists.
Obviously Somalia is no one's ideal. Whatever its government is, it's an example gone horribly awry.
There is a difference between libertarians and Libertarians, btw. The latter refers to the members of third largest political party in the United States, but libertarians are people who believe in limited government to varying degrees. Not all libertarians are Libertarians.
[quote]Pooling resources is what we do. That''s how food gets to our table. The farmers grow the food, the trucks bring it to the store and we buy it, we don''t all have tractors and acre large gardens. \
Ever hear of a company called Monsanto? Monsanto and ConAgra own the entire fucking Midwest, you ignorant twat. The fact that agribusiness is unregulated is why companies like Monsanto have taken over the US food supply.
R19, The Federal Government put a 500 million dollar cap on the penalties BP has to pay. Dick Cheney helped oil rigs in America save $500,000 dollars by not requiring the acoustic shut off valves that would have prevented that disaster.
Bernie Madoff might go to a jail that makes a country club look like a Holiday Inn.
And why do you think Goldman Sachs is so fucking powerful? They RUN THE TREASURY and have for several administrations (both Democrats and Rethugs)
Wall Street gets it's power from the Fed, which is a banking cartel created by JP Morgan and the Rockefellers. The robber barons. Those big Wall Street banks you're talking about control the Fed. Look at the board of directors of the NY Fed. The CEO of JP Morgan is on the board and used his position at the Fed to enrich his own company with the collapse of Bear Stearns. It's a cartel. That's why Wall Street rules the world, and isn't just a normal financial district in a normal city. They get to create all the U.S. dollars they want, all the time.
[quote]Libertarianism is natural. It''s what we do every day. The order emerges on its own.\
So where has it emerged on its own and proved to be a viable way of government? The Somalian example appears to be too vulnerable to interaction with other countries. Wasilla, Alaska sized local governments, without a federal government, are pipe dreams - they would not survive in the world.\
Are there any countries at all where Libertarianism has "emerged on its own" and proved to be a stable way of structuring a country?
[quote]Libertarianism is natural. It''s what we do every day. The order emerges on its own.\
so is chaos and entropy and war and oblivion. I wouldn''t recommend those courses because of their natural sources.
R25, as a liberal do you think our government provides these things? Surely you know about the "Innocence Project" and as a probably gay person, you know you don't have equal rights. If you're a woman, there's no equal pay. As far as common defense, would we have any conflicts with anyone if it weren't for our government? I can assure you people in the Middle East don't "Hate us for our freedoms."
Like I said, it's comforting to have a giant Santa like lap of a strong government, but Santa doesn't exist (and a lot of them are pedophiles)
R28, the FDA gave Monsanto that power. Follow the careers of former Food and Drug Administration employees. Where are they working now? Why Monsanto of course. Monsanto didn't get it's power b/c a bunch of really like Roundup Ready Soybeans, it got its power from lobbyists in Washington.
Tiny organic farms see more visits from agri-inspectors than vast factory farm killing operations. Ask DL's favorite goat farmer how much red tape he has to deal with.
The government is the one who gave these giant corporate monoliths their powers. It started with the railroads and the Interstate Commerce Commission and it's steadily gotten worse.
R10 almost ready to go out, but I''m enjoying this.
Libertarians won't answer the question because they don't like the answer. The answer is that there has never existed a country run on libertarian principles. It doesn't work.
Look at the two examples given in this thread. Even if you believe that Somalia was on the cusp of greatness (ha!), the excuse is that "outsiders" ruined the wonderful libertarian society. Weak and unstable, at best.
The other example is laughable - "the Italian Renassaince" - all towns. Where are these Italian Renassaince towns now? Why did "the Italian Renassaince" Libertarian superiority not last?
Libertarians can talk for days and days detailing the ways they don't like the US government. But ask which country in the world this form of government has worked in? CRICKETS. Or laughably stupid answers.
Libertarians are no better than Dungeons and Dragons addicts or Scientologists. They're either hobbyists in a fantasy game or downright scam artists.
Rand Paul's attempts to evade Rachel Maddow were a great example - they WILL NOT answer the question because Libertarianism is not a form of government for the real world.
The reason we "won''t answer the question" is because there is something wrong with the question. You''re asking, "Has there ever been a government that is purely libertarian?" And we''re telling you: there is no such thing as a purely libertarian government, just as there is no such thing as a purely liberal or conservative government.\
France, the US, Switzerland and New Zealand all have governments whose infrastructures have strong libertarian leanings. Happy?
Those of us who believe in the republic recognize instances where Government has failed and also where it has succeeded historically. It is hardly an idealized Santa for us.
How will libertarianism ensure equal pay for women or reign in Monsanto when private companies are given right to do as they wish? No government or larger body to reign them in. And free market is supposed to correct itself. As Paul had discovered in the Civil Rights Act debate - the government can permit the south to choose when to desegregate, but after well over a century of time they didn't. And being the minority they didn't have enough $$$ consumer leverage to force a change. So on a local level how will equal pay for women come about unless it was in the ideology of the private business owners who shouldn't be told what they should do.
Not to mention a state by state rule of law would cause chaos. States battling over territories among each other and potential bordering states waring with other countries. Possibly creating settlements if they felt so entitled, and we've all seen citizens & leaders on the local level capable of that.
The common factor in the corruption of government and on local level are the citizens themselves. No matter what societal structure is created there is no utopia just a constant work in process.
[quote]You''re asking, "Has there ever been a government that is purely libertarian?"\
No, that''s not what I''m asking. I asked "What is an example of a country that runs on Libertarian principles?"\
I did not ask for purity or perfection. I just wanted to know what country runs on its principles. \
I have my answer - the nearest real world example is Somalia. And with your answer, the "leanings" of France, the US, Switzerland, and New Zealand. I think that''s a stretch, but I won''t ask for why you listed those countries. These questions always seem to just provide a platform for repetitive speeches against the US government for some reason.
OP, over and out
[quote]Wall Street gets it''s power from the Fed, which is a banking cartel created by JP Morgan and the Rockefellers. The robber barons. Those big Wall Street banks you''re talking about control the Fed. Look at the board of directors of the NY Fed. The CEO of JP Morgan is on the board and used his position at the Fed to enrich his own company with the collapse of Bear Stearns. It''s a cartel. That''s why Wall Street rules the world, and isn''t just a normal financial district in a normal city. They get to create all the U.S. dollars they want, all the time.\
Which is the perfect argument to support increased government regulation of the financial system. But it''s not like anything you''ve argued makes any sense.
OP, again, libertarianism isn''t "a form of government" but a broad set of political ideals like conservatism and liberalism. \
You asked this question, but you weren''t interested in an answer. You were interested in saying: I think libertarianism is a stupid pipe dream. So just say that instead of pretending to engage anyone in honest dialogue. \
You''ve likely only spoken to American libertarians, so it''s not a big fucking mystery why you''ve heard a lot of reactionary rhetoric about the American government. It''s a common political tactic of ANY school of thought to at least dabble in the "we''re better than THOSE guys!" angle.\
I favor libertarianism because as a gay person, I believe that a government which has a lot of power historically hasn''t looked out for the best interests of political or social minorities. That so many LGB people trust the government - any government - to do right by them when no government ever has, ever, in the history of all of humanity, is mind boggling to me.
[quote]What is an example of a country that runs on Libertarian principles?\
R38, this is the question I asked. Stop trying to make it sound as though I were asking a different question. I set it apart at the top of my post to make it clear. \
You''re either being willfully stupid or purposely dishonest. \
Do you have anything to offer other than personal attack or criticism of government? \
Anything positive, like examples of where Libertarian principles have been applied and succeeded?
Medieval Italian city-states were not rich. How could any libertarian jackanape believe such a ridiculous notion?
Libertarians are obviously contrarian fucktards
It takes 3 minutes in the presence of an actual libertarian to know they are all wackos. \
They live in the realm of ideas, most of which bear little correspondence to the real world.\
The internet, with its emphasis on the virtual, rather than the real, is their perfect medium, but they will always be cheeto-chomping, basement-dwelling losers.
I''m guessing the New England colonies before the Declaration of Independent -- minus incidents of slavery and positive a lot more marijuana.\
The libertarian would thrive in a post-apocalyptic state. Unfortunately for most libertarians alive today, we''re not post-apocalyptic just yet.
Sorry, Decl. of IndepenDENCE.
R43, bachelors were illegal in colonial New England. Prices were closely controlled, and taxes used to support the poor.
New Zealand invented the modern welfare state, which is anathema to libertarians.\
Switzerland regulates every fucking thing from your flugelhorn to your fingernails.
Colombia was the most libertarian country in the world about five years ago.\
Today we''d have to say it is Haiti.
I have to say that r10 is one of the dumbest posters I''ve read in a long. \
All r10 did was to build a straw-man and knock it down thinking all the time how brilliant he/she was.
[quote]Switzerland regulates every fucking thing from your flugelhorn to your fingernails\
literally, I''ve lived there and you are fined for hanging your laundry out on the wrong day. NOTHING libertarian about them but that they are a confederacy.
Libertarians and tea party/white supremacists don''t have very high IQs, do they? Facts really do bother them. A lot.
Embedded in a sea of stupid:
[quote]You're fine with the way the FCC uses its licensing to control the media and all of the shit like Operation Mockingbird.
Licensing and technical coordination of radio and TV stations is required for technical reasons, to avoid massive interference.
The FCC and Congress largely deregulated electronic media along libertarian lines in the 1980's. Among many things, they instituted auctions for broadcast licenses, rather than comparative hearings to determine the most qualified applicants. The old system actually allowed me, a person of modest means, to own broadcast properties. Could I outbid large corporations? Forget it.
The new rules brought us Clear Channel, owner of
900 stations, and similar operators like Cumulus. Local radio died. Automated, voice tracked, centrally produced corporate McRadio replaced it.
Ask small rural towns what happens when tornadoes come, or a train derailment with toxic chemicals spill. At the remotely operated robot stations, the answer is nothing. No warnings, no emergency programming.
America is owned and operated by mega-corporations, not the people. Aided and abetted by the lame-brained libertarians. To the detriment of us all.
Screwing Ayn Rand behind the transmitter building
Democracy is just mob rule, how is that fair?
Oh, God, this again? Do libertarians like to drive on paved roads? Do they accept and cash their Social Security checks when they get older? Do they accept COBRA and unemployment when they get fired? Of course. Ao what they really want is a government that''s all service and no rules or taxes\
It''s just a permanent part of the American character--every generation has had this particular substratum of stupidity to call its own: A combination of complete paranoia about institutions and equally unwarranted confidence in oneself.
So many who hate Libertarian ideals love Socialism, yet time after time, it just has not worked out. Even mixed Capitalist/Socialist nations, when they tip too far Socialist, there goes the neighborhood. Existence proves Libertarianism works. There was default Libertarianism for a many, many, many years and people survived. Here we are.
"There was default Libertarianism for a many, many, many years and people survived."
Yes. Let's all go back to hunting and gathering like primitive men. Things were so much better then.
Somalia was not created by libertarianism, it was created by the failures of both liberal and conservative foreign policy. Somaliland however is closer to libertarianism and is quite stable but unrecognized by the UN (no surprise there) Iceland is as close to true libertarianism as you can get and still be recognized. And look how differently they handled the financial crises, banks that defrauded where shut down, and bankers and politicians including the PM went to prison. and no one lost their homes. Where here under the current liberal conservative governments the banks were bailed out the corruption that caused it ignored and millions of Americans lost their homes. So tell me again how libertarianism doesn't work.
The problem with Libertarians... besides their arrested adolescence, their arrogance, their self-absorbed selfishness, and the fact that they live in a 'bubble' unaware of how most people get by on a daily basis... is that they never EVER think through the consequences of their arguments, beliefs, and ideology. What might sound good in the short-term, completely falls apart in the long term, or when applied to a country of 380 million people (as opposed to this one guy).
[bold]Libertarianism:[/bold] [italic]The bizarre belief that you own no debt to the society that sustains you.[/italic]
No, R55... Libertarianism doesn't work. It never has, and it never will. Not once in history is there even ONE example of a society or civilization organized around Libertarian ideals, policies, or dogma.
There are examples to be found of EVERY other "ism" attempted in the world, but Libertarianism is so deeply flawed, that it's never even been TRIED anywhere. [bold][italic]Because it doesn't just merely "not work", it's not POSSIBLE for it to work.[/italic][/bold]
It's amazing to me Libertarians can't see the obvious... and are so ignorant of society, history, government, economics, and the evolution of all of these things.
[quote]It's just a permanent part of the American character--every generation has had this particular substratum of stupidity to call its own: A combination of complete paranoia about institutions and equally unwarranted confidence in oneself.
We seem to have an over-abundance of these morons today... both Libertarians AND the TeaParty, just to name two.
Our government is "We, the people" ... we vote it into power, and give it legitimacy.
If you don't like it, stop voting for assholes (i.e. stop voting for Republicans and Libertarians). It'll get better.
And for the record, yeah, stop voting for left-wing extremists who want to ban and nanny-state everything as well.
But dear god, STOP voting for assholes who think government is evil and never works, because they'll just get elected and make it their sole goal to PROVE IT.
Iceland is purely socialistic, not libertarian. Somalia, which was not "CREATED" by any
American policies at all, is more libertarian. Haiti since the earthquake has also been more or less libertarian.
Libertarians have no answer because such an answer would require insight, and they are utterly lacking in that, which is part of why they're Libertarians.
Today's libertarians worship the sociopath Ayn Rand, and have become sociopathic themselves.
libertarians are lying liars who lie. they know their "philosophy" is a joke and does nothing but provide a smokescreen of justification for their selfish acts. they actively enjoy screwing over others but know that in order for everyone to not band against them them, they need cover, hence the masquerade of being a political movement. they are nothing more than sadists, sociopaths, and greedy hoarders who never grasped the concept of sharing or playing fair in nursery school.
if we could lock them all up in mental institutions, this world would be a better, happier, and more equitable place.
Libertarians disliked Ross Perot because he refuted their longstanding claim that their message was being suppressed.
Also, for every law libertarians want repealed, those laws were passed because the absence of those laws was considered unsustainable.
Libertarianism is a good philosphy to apply as a check and balance against big government, but on its own it's like a punch line without a joke.
All forms of government intervention work. Period.
We may have no examples of a country run on libertarian values, but do have an example of a company.
[quote] Ayn Rand-loving CEO destroys his empire.
The invisible hand waves bye-bye to Eddie Lampert, whose business plan has run Sears into the ground.
WHY aren't libertarians doing exactly what the OP says????
HE is in charge here and he is waiting on your pleasure!!!
RESPECT HIS AUTHORITY!!!
R70 = libertarian moron, generating a distraction in order to avoid answering a simple question. A typical tactic.
r71 = OP, sulking because his demands will not be met
No, R72, but thanks for playing. There are some nice consolation prizes for you as you leave, including a nice book on logic, reasoning, and debate which you could obviously really use.
Oh, you're really terrifying me with your withering comments, r73.
As if that were my goal, or as if I cared about what you were feeling either way. I'm just kinda sitting back and laughing at you making a fool of yourself. Whatever.
Oh, no one could ever possibly answer that devil-may-care "Whatever"!
You are truly a master logician and manipulator of rhetoric.
Translation of R70:
The only possible answer to this question would only help undermine the libertarian cause. So the best thing to do is insult and put down the person answering the question.
But it's inherently stupid to go around demanding an answer to a question from a Libertarian, as if they're somehow bound to obey your authority.
Libertarians believe they are free to do what they like. They will not respect your authority if you demand answers (or demand anything) from them.
[quote]But it's inherently stupid to go around demanding an answer to a question from a Libertarian, as if they're somehow bound to obey your authority.
That's not what the OP is doing moron.
[quote]Libertarians believe they are free to do what they like.
Apparently without any consideration for anyone else, or for civilization/society, or history, or anything else.
[quote]They will not respect your authority if you demand answers (or demand anything) from them.
That's not the point, moron.
Are you really this cluelessly stupid?
Oh honey: just calling someone names like "moron" may frighten or terrify the other children on the playground, but it just doesn't work on adults.
If that's all you got, you ain't got much.
libertarian = moron
I'm not a Libertarian.
Libertarians are selfish pricks with the mental acuity and planning capacity of goldfish. They are emotionally and socially retarded, politically deformed, and psychologically dysfunctional.
They are the people our parents warned us against, bad employees/employers, bad neighbors, bad partners, bad people. They should be avoided at all costs.
please address the thread at this link, libertarian freaks:
When the Italian city states were Libertarian, people were living in houses with towers from which they would drop rocks and boulders on their neighbours like Wile E. Coyote. The stone houses had additions hanging off the buildings over the streets. You would only go out with several mates (or hired hands) for safety.
Then came order with regulations that required the unsafe additions be removed and the towers taken down and people were punished for breaking laws in the cities.
Don't conflate two very different versions of city life by taking the success of order and attributing it to the chaos of Libertarianism.
Do we have some insane bump troll operating this month? Really, a thread from 2010? Who even bothers keeping *track* of this shit?
Liberals are great with spending money, as long as it someone else's. All their problems and failures are due to someone else, never because they are incapable of supporting themselves. They are stupid fucking sheep who can't run their own lives without some stupid politician telling them what to believe. Most deserve their own failure.
gosh, r93, what a reasoned and cogent response to OP's question!