- i love both of them. \
the teasing midler did while karen was alive was simply because of the sugary pop quality of the carpenter''s music in general....anyone who was ''cool'' and irreverent made fun of their popularity.\
yes, karen''s voice was better. but midler has the most amazing presence on stage (and i saw them both live, if you can believe it). her concert was a religious experience for me.\
(i was irked by her gay marriage comments faux pas, but i think she''s more than made up for it.)
- Karen''s voice was better?\
How do you figure that?
- i adore bette midler, and she has a better voice than most people realize.\
but there''s something about karen carpenter''s voice that is so pure and so unique that, yes, i think she had the better voice.\
or were you being facetious?
- Oh, I should explain: it''s because I was born with ears, r2.
- Bette went on record after Karen''s death saying she was deeply sorry about all the jokes at Karen''s expense and wishes she never did them. At the time Bette was making all those nasty remarks in her act, Karen''s medical problems were not known to the public and Bette had no idea.
- Bette Midler can barely sing - but she knows how to put over a song. Her voice was never that much but now - she really can''t sustain notes and her pitch is problematic. She is very smart and knows how to navigate and disguise her limitations.
- Karen had a spectacular, unique voice and was an incredible musician. The Carpenters'' sound was a perfect fit for a troubled era, and they sold millions of records. \
As for Bette? None of the above.
this thread is closed.
- Would A. Lesbian please drop the itsy-bitsy looky-me refusal to use capital letters the way literate people know they should? Such as affectation always grates, and it''s hard to read your posts when the gorge is rising.\
- R2, are you seriously asking that question?\
Have you ever heard Karen Carpenter sing? She had one of the greatest voices of any female recording artist in pop music, ever. Bette Midler, while a great performer with a powerful voice, doesn''t even compare.
- Karen Carpenter had a gorgeous voice. But when I heard Bette Midler''s version of Superstar/Groupie for the first time recently, it instantly became my favourite version. Midler''s interpretation is brilliant and reminds how she had real acting talent. \
Karen Carpenter was always hampered by her brother''s sugary arrangements, I feel.
- Bette''s Superstar.
- When Karen gave Bette her Grammy for best new artist back in - what, ''74? - there was no real animosity in evidence, just showbiz ribbing.\
Here''s the moment. Oh, and just listen to the rest of the competition. Except for Barry White, they ALL shoulda been hit over the head with it.
- Jesus, at this point I wouldn''t put it past Midler to do a Karen Carpenter tribute album.\
It''s kind of telling that for all Midler''s irreverent posturing at the beginning of her career, she ended up being just as bland and adult-contempo as the Carpenters ever were.\
And in retrospect, at least the Carpenters felt somehow strangely era appropriate. With every self-indulgent nostalgia album Midler puts out, it''s clear just how much distaste she has for pretty much everything that postdates her.
- Bette was always retro. Boogie Woogie Bugle Boy was her big hit. The Rosemary Clooney album was fun - but the Peggy Lee material was just beyond her and wasted.
- I love Bette Midler - best oscar host EVER! - but she can''t stay on pitch. At the very least, a singer should stay on pitch. It''s like a drummer who can''t keep time - what''s the point? She is very funny but a terrible singer.
- "(i was irked by her gay marriage comments faux pas, but i think she''s more than made up for it.)"\
In what way? I think it''s unforgivable and I used to adore Bette.
- Even at my saccharine schmaltziest, I never would have recorded shit like "From A Distance." \
Go fuck yourself, Midler.
GIMME AN "M"!\
- Thanks for posting the link, R13. I saw that show live and remembered their interaction being acrimonious, but watching it now it just seems fun -- the Carpenters applauded Bette, Bette kissed Karen -- it doesn''t seem nasty at all.
- The irony is that Bette ended up recording some pretty damn schmaltzy dreck herself.\
At least the Carpenters are still listenable.
- [quote]but why was Bette so after Karen?\
Isn''t it pretty obvious?\
Karen was infinitely more talented, thinner, far more attractive and definitely garnered more respect.\
I''d much rather "Miss" Karen still be with us today than that sad old twatface Midler.\
Karen, IMHO, is the best singer of all time. I know a lot of people will say Aretha or Streisand, but there was something incredibly beautiful about the subdued way Karen sang. You could hear the pain in her voice and it was powerful.\
Go ahead with the "Oh Mary!"s but I do love me some Karen Carpenter.
- "Superstar" is about a lonely young girl pining for her idol. Midler''s version is just irritating and icky. \
Who are her ''fans'' now, middle-aged women who want to feel "naughty"?
- Heaven is listening to Karen''s cover of "Ticket To Ride."
- love that one too, r24, but my fave is her cover of desperado.\
embarrassing but true.
- A year later she gave out the award for album of the year. This one''s interesting because of the sheer level of TALENT in the nominees.
Did you really have to mention weight in a Karen Carpenter thread?
- The nominees for Best New Artist are insane to see alongside each other:\
Marie Osmond, Barry White, Bette Midler, Maureen McGovern, and somebody named Eumir Deodata (see link - interesting).
- Eumir Deodato is AWESOME. Have been a fan for years.
- This is like when some tired old queen tries to say Bette is better than Streisand (in any way).\
Not in this lifetime, love. Never was, isn''t, and never ever will be.
Not James Brolin
- I''ve always wanted to start a thread about what it would have been like if Midler had done Funny Girl instead of Streisand.\
But ultimately, I''m a peace-loving man.
How romantic. You know the original title is "Groupie". Lovely as Karen''s voice was, she didn''t plumb the depths of the song. It''s about a girl who believes her idol when he tells her love her. Midler''s performance draws out the complexity of the situation. It''s not a simple love song.
And I''m not even really a Bette Midler fan. I only have her debut.
- R31, it wouldn''t have been "like" anything because it wouldn''t have BEEN. You do realize Babs created the role onstage, right? And please don''t harp on Merman/Russell in GYPSY, Andrews/Hepburn in MY FAIR LADY or Martin/Andrews for SOUND OF MUSIC. People STILL, to this day, are talking about Babs onstage in FUNNY GIRL. If she didn''t do the film, the film would not have been made. Period. \
And, please, Bette bleating "My Man"? Or, better yet, the song in the stage version - "The Music That Makes Me Dance"?? Hahahahahahahaha. THAT''s a laugh!\
Not Willian Wyler
That''s not true. Shirley MacLaine was talked about for Funny Girl.
- Not to mention, r32, in one special she sang the song in a straitjacket.
- R34, lots of things are "talked about" or discussed in Hollywood. It''s called bullshit.\
Again, without Babs it wouldn''t have happened. She WAS Fanny Brice.
Not Arthur Laurents
- Yeah, Karen Carpenter would have been awesome in "The Rose."
- The late Karen Carpenter had a splendid alto voice and also was a serious percussionist who studied the works of Buddy Rich.
Have you seen footage of Fanny Brice? Barbara Streisand was Barbara Streisand as Fanny Brice.\
If you think Funny Girl wouldn''t have been made without Streisand, look at My Fair Lady. Julie Andrews had done the show in New York and London, recorded cast albums for both. And LIKE Streisand, she wasn''t a movie star before her Oscar-winning turn.
- R39, read my other posts in this thread (I am R33). Troll-dar is your friend, doll.\
And you are saying SHIRLEY FUCKING MACCLAINE was closer in looks, styling and mannerisms - let alone VOICE and comedy technique - to to the real Fanny Brice? More than Babs was? I think not. \
Anne Bancroft was originally supposed to do FUNNY GIRL on Broadway but backed out at the last moment so Arthur Laurents suggested to Jule Styne he have a look at this new girl he cast in his musical I CAN GET IT FOR YOU WHOLESALE. The rest is history.
- Fanny Brice was a horrible singer.
- Back in their day, the Carpenters were considered jokes by many people, not just Bette Midler. Their music was syrupy, treacly MOR junk. They were Republicans, boring, conservative, dull, squeaky-clean. And it was the seventies, the era of disco and glam/glitter rock; of COURSE they were going to be made fun of. \
In reality the squeaky-clean Carpenters were a drug addict and an anorexic. And not particularly nice or intelligent, either. They both had utter distain for artists like David Bowie and Alice Cooper and Mott the Hoople. They thought they were "better."\
There seem to be a lot of Karen fangurls on Datalounge, proclaiming her voice to be gorgeous, stunning, etc. Actually her voice was inexpressive, lackluster and dull. But it was a distinctive voice; you always knew when Karen Carpenter was singing a song. She always sounded like she''d taken a few Quaaludes before each recording session.
I said Shirley MacLaine was talked about, I never said she was right for the role.\
I''m clearly talking to a rabid fan.
- R40, don't get me wrong, I love Streisand in Funny Girl as much as the next gay guy, she is undeniably glorious in the part.
I do think, however, that in terms of looks, talent and style, Bette Midler bares a greater resemblance to Fanny Brice than Barbra Streisand, and I would have been interested to see what Midler would have done with the part. She has a much different take on acting, comedy, and putting over a song than Streisand does, and I think Midler's comparable lack of vanity as a performer (and unarguably plainer looks) could have actually served the part well.
I totally would concede that score as written would probably have been too much for Midler even back then ( even at her best, she could never hope to compete with Streisand in terms of pure vocal ability), but I was surprised that you "My Man" as the song you thought Midler would have stumbled on. Midler's always been a deft hand at torch songs and I think it's the one song in the score that Midler's more ragged sound might have actually improved .
- Were the Carpenters racists?
Well they did retitle their version of "Brother, Can You Spare A Dime" to "Partner, Can You..."
- [italic]They both had utter distain for artists like David Bowie and Alice Cooper and Mott the Hoople. They thought they were "better."\
With the exception of Bowie, they were right.
- Yes, R45. Once when Lola Falana was appearing on the Mike Douglas show at the same time, Karen snuck into her dressing room and hung up a noose for her to find. Also, Richard once burned a cross on Flip Wilson''s front lawn.
- [quote]best oscar host EVER!\
She was? When was that?
- Lots of great points, R44. It would be interesting, but I''m glad we have the Babs/FG and not the Bette/FG at the end of the day.\
I actually had a chuckle when trying to imagine Bette "singing" or performing "The Music That Makes Me Dance" - a much rangier and more difficult number than "My Man", but similar in style since it was written to evoke that Brice standard, which, of course, replaced it in the film version of the show - which Babs did 8 times a week in FG on stage. It''s a glorious song, and the only person I''ve seen come close to doing it as well as Babs was Carolee Carmello at the Actor''s Fund FG concert a few years ago.
Not Seth Rudetsky
- I must be the only person on the planet who hates Karen Carpenter''s voice.
- "(i was irked by her gay marriage comments faux pas, but i think she''s more than made up for it.)"\
In what way? I think it''s unforgivable and I used to adore Bette.\
You have to remember, Bette found her gay audience when being gay was REALLY bad. She was on the edge, and parlayed that into a career. It is well documented that Bette is not only gay friendly, but she is also beholden to us.\
When asked about gay marriage, Bette asked the retorical question of why gay men would want to go through the visussitudes and machinations that entail heterosexual marriage. She was trying to protect us in her less than intellectual way, without realizing that the main reason we want gay marriage is to level the playing field with the breeders.\
And please forgive my spelling errors.
- [quote]she had an even better voice than Bette has ever had.\
KC - Miss Dreary Voice. \
Bette never had a great voice but she could sell a song. Dreary weary Karen just bored everyone to death.
- Game. Set. Match!
- [quote]Dreary weary Karen just bored everyone to death.\
"Everyone"? Speak for yourself.\
She was a huge star, and millions of people loved her, including many of this thread. If you don''t like her, you don''t like her; but it''s simply not true to say she "bored [italic]everyone[/italic] to death."
- [quote]I must be the only person on the planet who hates Karen Carpenter''s voice.\
- For those who find Karen "dreary," you''d hate this (done when she was, I think, 17) . . .
- R5, Bette does that shit. She opens her fat trap and spouts off. Then, only after she gets called on the carpet, she tries to beg forgiveness and apologize.\
Trust us, she does this.
the gays who aren''t "allowed" to marry
- Karen''s lesbianism after Richard''s years of incest abuse was considered the likely cause of her anorexia. It wasn''t well known that at the time of her death her "assistant" was a black woman named Thelia who actually was her protector and girlfriend and cook. Richard controlled the press even when she died, and the truth of her real struggle never came out.
- r61, how do you know about Thelia?
- Please, more on Thelia.
- I can''t believe there is anyone who thinks Bette Midler, as entertaining as she can be, has a better voice than Karen Carpenter had. I don''t even think this is open for debate, it is that open and shut.
- [quote]That''s not true. Shirley MacLaine was talked about for Funny Girl.\
Me too! ME TOO!!
- Thanks for the information, r48.
- I have never heard anyone anywhere claim Karen had a great voice.\
She sang flat. Had a small range. No real power behind the voice. Did not have much sense of phrasing. Within her limitations she did really well, and I love a lot of her recordings. \
You reasonably could claim she had better taste in material or a better understanding of her instrument than Midler. But to claim she had a better voice is just silly.
- Karen Carpenter always pinged for me. Always.\
Back in those days, women simply didn''t play the drums -- that was a boy''s instrument. In fact, the only woman I ever knew who played the drums back then was my first LTR, and she''s an FTM now.
- "I must be the only person on the planet who hates Karen Carpenter''s voice."\
No, you''re not. A lot of people hated The Carpenters. But since Karen''s death, people are much nicer towards them, out of pity for Karen, I guess. \
Her fans can''t believe anyone could hate her voice, but what do you expect, they''re silly Karen Carpenter worshipping fangurls.
- "Karen''s lesbianism after Richard''s years of \
Wait, wait, wait. Where you goin''?!?!\
Get back here. WHAT??
- "Karen''s lesbianism after Richard''s years of incest abuse"\
That sounds like something out of the Weekly World News.\
I''ve heard a lot about the Carpenters. Their family was dysfunctional. But R61''s tale sounds like the result of a very overactive, unstable imagination. It sounds like the ravings of a nutjob.\
"It wasn''t well known that at the time of her death her "assistant" was a black woman named Thelia who actually was her protector and girlfriend and cook."\
I suppose "girlfriend" is another way of saying that "Thelia" was Karen''s lesbian lover. And she was her COOK? What the fuck did Karen Carpenter need a cook for? She didn''t EAT!\
I guess you can say anything about a famous person after they''re dead no matter how outlandishly fake it sounds. And no doubt somebody out there will believe it.
Karen Carpenter had an eating disorder - why would she have a cook?! Would you be surprised that she had a fridge as well?
- looking at the youtube clip, both Richard and Karen chuckled when they read off Bette Midler''s name so I don''t think they took her seriously and they seemed like they had a sense of humor. (By the way, I read somewhere when Bette won Best New Artist, Barry White was PISSED!)
- There''s a bio of Karen called "Little Girl Blue" that comes out in July. Scores of people who were close to Karen were interviews, and Richard had no participation, so it should be interesting.
- Someone upthread said Karen''s voice had no range. Youtube "Hurting Each Other" and tell me that again. And all those massed choir vocals on songs like "Close To You", "Rainy Days And Mondays" and "Superstar" are just Richard and Karen. That''s not an easy feet. And for their syrupy, sunshiney image, their most popular songs were pretty sad. "Rainy Days" is one of the only songs I know that is sad and melancholy yet dynamic and exciting all at once. Ok I''ll sit here so the Karen-hater trolls come after me.......
- The fact was that in the 1970s, Karen Carpenter voice and The Carpenters music were considered commercial pop schlock -- never, not ever taken seriously. \
Today it''s all "oh, Karen had such a beautiful voice," and she''s compared to Streisand when Streisand was good. She''s even associated with someone with a lesser voice but witty and original stage act, Midler. This IS amusing.\
If Karen had lived, none of this would have happened. Well, maybe if Karen came out of the closet. I don''t know if r61 has the story, but Karen lesbianism has been around for decades.
- "Karen Carpenter''s cook" is not something I''d put on my resume. That''s a bit like saying you''re Shane MacGowan''s dentist.
- I certainly wouldn''t hire her as a cook!\
Karen Carpenter also did that annoying S with upper teeth in lower lip, the kind of S people with buck teeth use, like Matt Lauer, or 13 boys who want to sound "tough." She should have conquered this habit when singing, it was really awful.
- "13 boys" That''s supposed to be 13 year old boys.
- How do you make an S sound with your teeth in your lips, r79?
- Chose some words with S in them. Like:\
"I say, mister seal stayer"\
When you the S in each word, say by pushing air thru your teeth as they''re resting in your lower lip.
- "Karen had a spectacular, unique voice and was an incredible musician. The Carpenters'' sound was a perfect fit for a troubled era, and they sold millions of records.\
As for Bette? None of the above.\
by: this thread is closed."\
Karen Carpenter was a unique talent. She did not have to work at that voice. In that case she was lucky to have her brother as an arranger.
- Who are her ''fans'' now, middle-aged women who want to feel "naughty"?\
*********Midler seems to have forgotten her bawdy days. If you watched her segment on Kathy''s D-List last season you''d have seen how far she''s come from her fun loving, Divine Mz. M/Continental Baths days. She may as well be a-lady-in-waiting to Camilla. BORING SELF RIGHTEOUS JEWESS.
- John Lennon himself said he loved the Carpenters'' cover of "Ticket To Ride."
- According to "Little Girl Blue: The Life of Karen Carpenter"...\
The Carpenters changed "I can hardly wait to sleep with you again" in Superstar to "be with you again" which was more radio friendly.\
[quote]It seemed as though Better Midler might have been miffed by the Carpenters'' success with "Superstar," the song she introduced to the duo [she sang it on The Tonight Show and Richard Carpenter liked it], as she began to poke fun at the duo....Karen took it all in stride. Besides, as she pointed out, the gold record for "Superstar" was on the Carpenters'' wall, not Midlers.\
Karen and Bette got together backstage after the C''s gave Bette the grammy for best new artist. And they got along well. "Bette said, ''I don''t know what I''m gonna do now that we''re friends''"\
But she did poke fun at them again at the next Grammy Awards show.
Good book about 70''s music scene
- The first time I heard Karen Carpenter's voice (I was twelve), I was drawn to it like a firefly is to light. Who is this singing, and why does it make me feel so warm inside? I loved music, and listened to it as much as possible, but I was not ready for this. Her voice, a clear, perfectly tuned instument washed over me like smoke and honey. To this day I have not heard her equal. Of course I would love to experience that feeling again, but I know there will never be another Karen. I knida had a crush on her too, especially after seeing those pretty brown eyes, and her honest smile.............Okay, I'm done........
Don From Texas
- "Little Girl Blue" is an excellent, heartbreaking read. Karen supposedly had a wicked sense of humor, and did get along with Midler.
She always pinged to me, as well, and while the author skirts the issue, it seemed to me that perhaps the anorexia might have had to do with her discomfort with her sexuality.
The Carpenters' mother was a pretty big factor in the family's dysfunction: she (and her husband) favored Richard, deeming him a genius, and moving the family to California so he could study music. Karen was the tagalong little sister, and even after she'd moved front & center, her mother didn't give her much credit.
I think both Midler and Karen Carpenter belong firmly in the pantheon of American pop music/entertainment.
- My heart is filled with luff for [R4] and [R10]. My kinda bitches!
- "Karen had a spectacular, unique voice and was an incredible musician. The Carpenters' sound was a perfect fit for a troubled era, and they sold millions of records.
As for Bette? None of the above. by: this thread is closed."
Oh shut UP, you idiot! The Carpenter's "sound was a perfect fit for a troubled era?" Their sound was disposable MOR pap. Of course a lot of people LIKE disposable MOR pap, so that is why they sold "millions of records."
Karen Carpenter was not an "incredible musician." Richard Carpenter was the musician in the duo, not her. And all this crap about her voice...my God, her voice was MEDIOCRE. It was a distinctive voice; you always knew when it was Karen Carpenter singing a song. But she had no range, no passion; she always sang as if she were deeply depressed or bombed on quaaludes.
Karen Carpenter is one of the most overrated singers ever.
Bette Midler has a Broadway voice, which serves her well in some songs, but not in others. As far as Karen Carpenter being a better singer than her...well, I don't think either one are particularly great singers.
- [R90] I'm sorry you were born without ears. Saying Karen Carpenter had a mediocre ears is like saying......Michelangelo was a paint by numbers kinda guy.
And the Carpenters music, like ABBA, had a sugary surface that only partly hid a layer of melancholy and strife underneath. No, it wasn't the fucking Clash, but that was the genius of both the Carpenters and ABBA (and something they shared with Midler): the ability to write catchy tunes about emotional upheaval.
[quote] Karen Carpenter is one of the most overrated singers ever.
No, no and no. Click, dial tone, goodbye.
- Jewish comedians love making cruel, personal-attack style jokes on people. Nobody's off limits.
Except, of course, other Jews.
- who are these deranged queens who think Midler is consistently pitchy? link please! the one time I can think of is in the studio recording of Delta Dawn, where the producers spliced in a take that had begun with no accompaniment. It's an awkward cut in the middle of a sustained note, more the producer's fault for not catching it.
She didn't forget where she came from, she aged. She's 65 or 66now....do you really want her to get her tits out and hump the stage ala Divine Madness? From a Distance and Wind Beneath my Wings are shlock..HUGELY POPULAR schlock. When your career pumps into high gear as hers did then, you need to play to the masses. She got that and good for her.
- No one will remember Bette Midler - she has already been totally forgotten by the upcoming generation.
To criticize The Carpenters and then applaud Milder is ridiculous. Bette Midler is the definition of elevator muzak schlock. "Wind Beneath My Wings" is one of the most nausea inducing songs ever.
- [quote]She sang flat. Had a small range. No real power behind the voice. Did not have much sense of phrasing. Within her limitations she did really well, and I love a lot of her recordings.
Spot on. For a microphone singer she displayed more control than most, so you can say she was accomplished on a purely technical level, but still. She seemed to have too speeds--vaguely sunny, and morbidly depressed--and nothing she sang took her out of a fairly narrow range. Sometimes it sounded as if she was barely opening her mouth.
Loved some of her recordings, and while her end was tragic I don't think it's cause to over-value her actual talent.
- [R93] The whole of "Wind Beneath My Wings" is a pitchfest. When she jumps octaves at the end it makes me wince.
- R44, enjoyed your comments, and I agree that Midler is closer to Fanny Brice - in looks, in schlumpiness, in timing, etc. - than Streisand ever was, and it would've been interesting to see Midler do [italic]Funny Girl[/italic] (although her TV Rose Hovick suggests she can't put a show tune across and create a character at the same time).
Nonetheless: I'm not especially a Streisand fan, but her "My Man" at the end of FG is one of the dozen or so most thrilling perfrormances ever put on film, up there with Garland's "Man That Got Away." Nobody, nobody could have worked that song in the same way Streisand did - her yearning, her anger, her defiance, her unique phrasing, the roughness she allows into her voice all the while maintaining a poignant lyricism, the way she cocks her head, the way she uses her hands - does anyone but Streisand have hands that seem all on their own to have studied with Lee Strasberg?
And I say this as someone who finds FG endless and bloated and indulgent and nearly unwatchable. Ugh, Omar Sharif. It's an exhausting film, and its paradox is that you're too worn out by the end to be able to enjoy Streisand's moment of real genius, "My Man."
Streisand's film career is made for Youtube.
- Streisand was and is a dumpy cow.
- Eldergays remember when the battle was between Midler and Streisand, and one could quickly scope out a fellow gay by determining which camp he belonged to.
Karen was around back then, but wasn't on any type of social radar like Midler and Streisand
- R98, sit down harder on your vintage 1927 Ramon Novarro art deco phallus as you slowly ease yourself from your walker down onto your disco era platform bed and tacky rubber sheets.
- [quote]Eldergays remember when the battle was between Midler and Streisand, and one could quickly scope out a fellow gay by determining which camp he belonged to.
I know we've suffered as a people, but had no idea things were so bad.
- What happened with Barry Manilow?
- I completely support a. lesbian's right to avoid capital letters. However, I'd like to know what Bette Midler did to make up for her gay marriage remarks. I personally haven't been swayed. Plus I saw her on Kathy Griffith acting so dainty and easily offended and I wanted someone to call her on her bullshit. Does she recall her earlier shows? I don't like when stars seem to want to change their own history.
- I've always thought Karen Carpenter to be a lesbian; more to the point a cute dyke - she pings big time. She even fits the bill for a dyke e.g., weight issues, loneliness, poor self-image, overbearing mother, tomboy who likes playing drums.
Am I the only one who thinks this?
- It IS interesting to think about what the view of Karen would be now had she lived. Would she be the same as say, Helen Reddy, Toni Tennille? Anyone know where they are today?
All the accolades and tributes came after she died - she would probably still be considered a joke on many levels and more of a guilty pleasure for most.
I LOVE Karen's voice but I really don't think it is due to a crazy talent she possessed. She had a clear and very concise sound that is very very pleasing. Perfect pop voice. But I'm sure she would have been the first to point out her limited range, etc. I do think she had very good pitch however. The background vocals she and Richard did are so mocked because they are so perfect.
- Listen to the late Karen Carpenter sing "Ave Maria" in the You Tube video I am linking to.
She uses her full vocal range in it and sing the song in Latin.
Bette Midler cannot do that.
- Listen to the You Tube video I am linking to. It is of the Carpenters doing "Ave Maria." The late Karen Carpenter uses her full vocal range in this version of the song and sings the whole thing in Latin. Bette Midler could not touch her back in the day, nor now!
The late Karen Carpenter was a very fine percussionist who studied the works of Buddy Rich. Buddy Rich is to the drums what Hendrix was to the guitar. What instrument does Bette Midler play again?
Ultimately, they are two very different ladies. But, talent wise, Karen Carpenter pawned Bette like the dickens but at least had a sense of humor about things and all.
- R106 as well as R107 here...
This was not intentional and I am very sorry.
- r108 - you are evil and must be destroyed.
- "I'm sorry you were born without ears. Saying Karen Carpenter had a mediocre ears is like saying......Michelangelo was a paint by numbers kinda guy."
You're comparing the monotone-voiced Karen Carpenter to Michelangelo?! You are one crazy fangurl!
"No, no and no. Click, dial tone, goodbye."
Yes, yes, and yes. Fuck off and die.
- "who are these deranged queens who think Midler is consistently pitchy?"
Midler's voice could be reedy and off key in the seventies. And yes, many music critics pointed that out at the time (just look at reviews of her second album and SONGS FROM THE NEW DEPRESSION) She was deemed a fantastic live act whose studio work failed to match what she brought to the stage. Her voice got better as she aged.
- A little known fact about Karen was her coke habit.
- [quote]Have you ever heard Karen Carpenter sing? She had one of the greatest voices of any female recording artist in pop music, ever.
Karen Carpetner didn't sing. She whined.
- it's possible to like both girls
- Karen at the end. Yowzers!
- I once proposed to a room of gay men that Bette Midler would've made a far more convincing "young man" in "Yentl".
I am lucky to have gotten out of that room with my life.
- Eydie Gorme and Carol Burnett were also considered for FG before it went to Streisand. Can anyone imagine Carol Burnett belting out "People"?
- Bette's "Superstar" sounds like a train wreck.
And I'm a fan.
- [quote]It IS interesting to think about what the view of Karen would be now had she lived. Would she be the same as say, Helen Reddy, Toni Tennille? Anyone know where they are today?
All the accolades and tributes came after she died - she would probably still be considered a joke on many levels and more of a guilty pleasure for most.
When they were still recording, did Helen Reddy and Toni Tennille ever come close to Karen Carpenter in terms of popularity?
The Carpenters enjoyed plenty of "accolades and tributes" when Karen was still alive, they were hugely popular.
- Yeah, I remember, the day after she died, talking with people at work about Karen's death. The people I worked with were of a big range of ages and backgrounds. But one thing they agreed on was that she was definitely one of the best singers at that time.
- I signed a petition to keep the Karen Carpenter death house from being razed. The horrible landlady had a tacky yard sale of Karen's possessions with wildly overpriced items such as Karen's LPs. Even her most ardent fans didn't touch the stuff.
- If Karen had not died she would have had Linda Ronstadt's late career, stage and exploring new genres in music. If you listen to her solo album,recorded in 1980, she was poised for it. I believe that the boycott of this solo album by A&M Records West, lead to Karen's ultimate health decline and death. A&M on the East Coast wanted to release it. I think it is brilliant and she never sounded better. You could release some of the songs today and they would be hits.
My 2 cents.
- [R110] Eat shit, you tonedeaf whore.
- Toni Tennille and Helen Reddy were not in Karen Carpenter's league. Karen was a superstar and one of the most famous female singers of the 1970s. If Karen were alive today, she would still be in the public eye and not a crazy fat-assed recluse like Linda Ronstadt.
- Holy Jesus, R115, Karen was fat, fat, fat! Did she kill herself because she was so depressed at being a lardass?
- Fanny Brice was not 'schlumpy'. In real life, she was an extremely elegant woman who spoke foreign languages and dressed impeccably. This is why her daughter Fran was not interested in having Streisand play her at first. This was the early, thrift shop clothes-wearing Streisand and Fran didn't think she was nearly elegant enough. Early Midler would not have been even in the same ballpark.
- Btw, Anne Bancroft dropped out of Funny Girl for one reason only: she had been assured by composer Jule Styne that the score would be suitable to her limited range. Styne, in the meantime, had discovered Streisand and was making nightly visits to her nightclub act in the Village. He began composing the score for her voice, her range, her abilities. When Bancroft heard People, she said I can never sing this and bowed out.
- For fuck's sake, you queens could turn a thread about a nuclear holocaust into a dissertation on fucking Funny Girl. Enough.
- [quote]When Bancroft heard People, she said I can never sing this and bowed out.
Bancroft may have blanched upon hearing the song, but it wasn't written for BS -- it was written for The Mr Magoo Christmas Special that Styne also scored.
- What would Karen Carpenter think of how the music business is going these days had she lived passed her thirties?
- R130, I imagine Karen, if alive today, would do a wonderfully subtextual version of "My neck, my back, lick my pussy and my crack".
- [quote] John Lennon himself said he loved the Carpenters' cover of "Ticket To Ride."
- R132 This is all I could find just as of right now.
[quote]John Lennon once told her “You’ve got a fabulous voice,” while Paul McCartney reportedly called it “the best female voice in the world—melodic, tuneful, and distinctive.”
- R123 = psychotic retarded Karen Carpenter fangurl
- let me say you're wrong
- R13: Miss Karen talked like someone with a problem with dolls.
- [quote]If Karen were alive today, she would still be in the public eye and not a crazy fat-assed recluse like Linda Ronstadt.
Don't talk to me about crazy. I'm the one who is still alive.
- [quote]That's not an easy feet.
Must you crazy foot fetish trolls infest every thread?
- We finally have a consensus: Karen Carpenter should have played Fanny Brice.
- Both Karen and Bette are closet lesbians.
- Have there ever actually been Midler lesbian rumours? I've heard Karen rumours before, but never any about Bette.
- I don't think there was anything "good natured" about Bette's ribbing ["Hey, Miss Karen, I can see you ribs!"].
I love them both as singers. They have really beautiful voices. However, i think like you Op that Karen had a more lovely voice.
In their personal lives, i also suspect that Bette was more coarse and vocal than gentle Karen, but maybe,after all, that's only an impression i have...
Karen's voice is impossible not to move someone, you know?
- why was this thread bumped?
- if memory serves Bette said something about the Carpenters being 'so white they're transparent'
- Bette Midler was lady enough to apologize for having mocked Karen. She didn't apologize about Richard, but since he married his biological first cousin and had five children by her, it was best for her to not even mention the sick fuck.
[quote]Bette Midler says she has deep regrets about ''making all those Karen Carpenter jokes.''
[quote]In the September issue of Redbook, Midler apologizes to the deceased singer and her family.
[quote]''She had a tremendous talent, and I was a jerk for saying those things (about Carpenter's anorexia),'' Midler said. ''I was young and stupid and crazy, and thought I was doing profound and enduring stuff. But I wasn't - I was adding to the ugliness in the world.''
- Funny then how Bette has spent the second half of her career doing middle-of-the-road albums that Karen very likely would have made (better).
- She used to kiss Barbra Streisand's ass in person and then make snide comments about her behind her back, even prompting Barbra to make the comment, "Oh, that's just Bette's shtick."
In the past few years, though, Bette and Barbra have become better friends and Bette only has wonderful things to say about her. Bette was front row and center at her LA concert last week.
- This is everyone who says they're lame -
- Bette Midler is simply awful. She'll be remembered for all of the pitchy schmaltz she subjected the world to. She talks about what an "artist" she is, etc., but she has made more MOR garbage than any of her contemporaries.
- To put it blandly, Karen Carpenter had the greatest female voice i have ever happened to hear. Soft, feminine, powerful, soulful, sincere.
- R150, you can't deny she was great in the 70s. Her Live at Last album is fantastic. And some of her movies still stand up well, especially Ruthless People.
- She was just jealous cause Karen was thin.
Guys, yes both were great undoubtedly.
It's just that Bette was more sassy and she could be impolite in the past. However, i'm glad that according to the link that R146 gave us, Bette seems regretful of her past silly comments.
That says a lot.
Karen Karen, how we miss you, you were the greatest among female voices.
Bette you've been great too, thank God that you understood that you made a lot of inelegant and unfair remarks in your past!
- Why did Karen marry a gay man?
Maybe she liked feminine qualities in a man.
- I was watching an old WKRP last night. Venus had to play a Carpenter's song for Mr. Carlson. They show him at the end unhappily listening to the record, then is startled as he finds himself getting sucked in and swaying to the music.
- Bette Midler was a fantastic performer who became a terrible disappointment as a person. Haven't paid attention to her since the mid '80s.
- "To put it blandly, Karen Carpenter had the greatest female voice i have ever happened to hear. Soft, feminine, powerful, soulful, sincere"
Hon, you must not have heard many female voices. Her voice is dead, lifeless, monotonous, dreary, mediocre. She always sounded like she'd popped a couple of quaaludes before every recording session.
- Well, R159, actually i'm a music buff and i have heard a lot of female and male voices.
Karen simply won my heart with the warmth and the sincerity of her voice. Maybe you only get moved by 'black' dynamic voices but that doesn't mean that all the rest can't be powerful and melodic and sometimes even better that the ideal black voice.
- [quote]She sang flat. Had a small range. No real power behind the voice. Did not have much sense of phrasing.
All that and just two degrees from comatose. She was just plain awful.
- NO her voice was the opposite of awful.
There was obviously a dreamy soul, a serenity and gentleness behind it. How couldn't you sense that? It really amazes me...
- This is how I break it down.
Karen had a beautiful tone to her voice. You can't make that happen if you don't have it naturally. She had a gift she was born with but she couldn't do much with it, and that's okay. I love that warm rich tone her voice possesses. So I would put her in the has a beautiful voice category.
A great singer is someone who has a beautiful voice and knows how to use it. My best example is Streisand. Beautiful voice and how she uses it, her vocal expression of ideas or feelings how she performs the song. Personal favorite is Yentl soundtrack. She is acting through singing and masterfully so. Too bad she did not stay in musical theater.
And there are vocal stylists like Bette. Good enough voice but it's mainly the performance more than vocal quality she brings to the song that makes her what she is. More about phrasing than vocal perfection.
Karen and Bette aren't comparable they are too different in what makes them great.
Btw could someone start a thread about great artists covering their contemporaries and doing an equally good version? I'm thinking like Gladys covered The Way We Were and Elton covered Lucy In The Sky both of which I enjoy as much as the original.
- Why does Bette as a person disappoint you R158?
I get that she mellowed out and became less outrageous, and maybe less outspoken during a time when she could have maybe been more opinionated, but some of it comes with aging. If she tried to act now like she did in the 70s, she'd look crazier than Madonna does.
- Thanks r163. That was a very good way to put it.
Some are all three (Sinatra, Garland). To me, Streisand is has a great voice and she has a great voice and is a great singer. Her style is iffy.
- r158 is no doubt referring to bette's unfortunate remarks about gay marriage about 6-7 years ago.
She has since apologized for those too, so give her a break.
- There was obviously a dreamy soul... who sang flat. There was... a serenity and gentleness behind it and that may be why she had no range and no power behind the voice.
- Karen was a better singer, of course. But Bette has always been a better storyteller. Her first few albums, and especially Live at Last, are her absolute greatest moments.
And Bette sang Superstar before Karen, which is really funny.
- I remeber back in the day a critic commented that Karen Carpenter's voice was akin to Pat Nixon eating an ice cream cone with a spoon...always thought that was brillant and spot on....
- Has the Janbot troll weighed in yet?
- The dismissal of Karen Carpenter's voice is a symptom of a peculiarly American tendency (IMO) to apply the "bigger is better" principle to everything including singing voices. Of course that disease has now spread to other parts of the world, but I've found that Americans, more than anyone else, are more impressed by big, loud voices and they also seem to believe that these are indicators of better musical ability than less powerful ones.
- Eating an ice cream cone with a spoon sounds like another "dialing the phone with a pencil". I must try it.
- R171 bless your mouth!
I totally agree with you.
- Karen had several lesbian encounters in the 60's and 70's but didn't consider herself a lesbian.
Also according to 2 close friends they grew up with, Karen and Richard apparently experimented with each other more than once.
- OK. Now THAT is some heavy duty major league gossip right there!!!
(1) thank you r174.
(2) what about ONJ?
(3) did you know them, or did you know their friends?
- NO THAT'S A LIE. KAREN AND RICHARD NEVER EXPERIMENTED WITH EACH OTHER. SHAME ON YOU.
- I went to high school with Richard, I was a year behind him. I didn't know him well but knew a couple of Karen's friends quite well. And BTW, How is it that just because someone likes her singing ability (which I do as well) that this is automatically untrue? She wasn't peaches and cream, no one is. We're all human.
- I KNOW THAT NOBODY IS PERFECT, BUT KAREN WAS NOT HAVING SEX WITH HER BROTHER, HOW DARE YOU!
- Were her lesbian experiences limited to high school, r174? She seems so obviously gay in hindsight (tomboy, drums, sports, gay speaking voice).
- Being lesbian is not reproachable but fucking your own blood it is sick. So stop telling that Karen and Richard experimented with each other, it's so disrespectful of you.
- To AAAAH: I heard this from her friends. It may or may not be true. It was discussed before anyone even knew who the Carpenters were. Did you know Karen and/or her friends, AAAH, do you know for a fact it didn't happen? Did you go to our highschool? You seem pretty sure of it. How dare you "matter of fact(ly)" say it didn't happen. It may have, or not. I just know the whole school had heard that rumor.
I think her (alleged)lesbian encounters were probably limited to high school. That was passed on to me by a mutual friend of ours who said she and Karen kissed for an hour in her parents basement. She was 16 at the time.
We lived about 4 blocks from them and my parents would not let my brother or I trick or treat at their house because of her "weird" mother as my mom called her.
- You know R180, if you can't stand the heat, then maybe you and your little potty mouth need to get out of the kitchen!
- Entertainer, don't fuck people with your mouth man/woman. You and your gossipy friends are not a reliable source, you are only trivializing people with your gop.
Kissing a girl is pretty normal for a teenager girl but you you passed the limit when you implied that two siblings had sex between them.
- Luther Vandross doing Superstar, starts about 1:57
Some great parts in it will give you chills, esp when he sings "Long ago...." it does not sustain it's greatness but he can do it pretty well.
- * teenage
- AHHH, I'm not "impling" anything. I went to school with them and I'm repeating what the word was at the time in that school before anyone in the world knew who they were. And I'm not sure where you grew up, but 2 teenage girls kissing each other is not considered a "normal thing" apparently it is for you.
This conversation is over. I won't dignify answering ignorance and immaturity. Go back to Fantasyland where everything is sunshine and roses for you.
- Sometimes I get the feeling that in her heart, Bette is a Republican.
- In the late 1940s Fanny Brice said "There's only one dame than can play me, and that's Joan Davis!"
- ignore AAAAH, Entertainer.
Thanks for posting. I believe you.
- Entertainer, two girls kissing each other is not normal when you feel bad and you speak bad about it. You obviously feel bad about lesbianism and you shouldn't, cause it's just attraction between two people like it is the attraction between man and woman.
It's not out of the blue if a girl kiss another girl or if a boy kiss another boy. Obviously you are in that Fantasyland you want me to go.
You are immature in the matters of the heart out of stubborness and not because you are really ignorant. That's what i think about you now.
Sunshine and roses are in my garden, but i also have thorns and ants in it.
For one more time...i don't believe that Karen and Richard were experimenting with each other, they were just very close to one another.
- It would be interesting to know how many records/CD's etc world-wide each has sold. In the 90's the Carpenters were still HUGE in Japan. I was floored at how many of their songs were sung at Karaoke bars, and seeing their CDs still in shops as best sellers. Even today, there's a whole new generation discovering Karen Carpenter there. Bette? Nope.
- Here's Karen doing Superstar. No one can top this. I do love Thurston Moore's version too.
Bette is just crap. Always has been treacly crap. Karen was sold as treacly crap but was a fantastic amazing singer, and was absolutely gorgeous.
- AAAAH you write as if english is not your first language.
I don't believe the incest rumor, but I have NO problem believing the lesbian rumors. Keep in mind, Entertainer is repeating high school gossip. Feel free to carry on, but your over the top reaction is kind of, well, over the top.
- R193, you write as if you want to insult me, but of course you can't. I think you are just jealous of my eloquence and you just tried on purpose to stuck on my previous speed error (look at the *).
Well, the only thing you managed is to be inelegantly...transparent.
Fix your insults, learn to support your arguments and don't worry about my passionate point of view...
- Have you seen The Rose?!! Bette has an incredible voice!
- Bette Midler was/is far superior in talent and singing ability to Karen Carpenter. The Carpenters music and popularity was on the sharp decline prior to Karen's death. (except with the over 50 y/o Liberace fans) especiallly with their elevator music style. Barry Manilow and the Bee Gee's were blowing the Carpenters off the music charts. If that overbearing idiot Richard had "allowed" Karen to go solo she might have done pretty well.
- richard is culpable.
- The best version of "Groupie (Superstar)" is Bonnie Bramlett's, and she was one of the song's writers.
Besides ignorance you obviously just barely speak or write English.
Why don't you learn proper grammer and the English language before you attempt to express your opinions here.
- AHHH be honest -- what is your first language?
- It's Klingon...lol
- feel better r8?
- I find it interesting how people so desperately wish to think that incest never happens.
It happens. A lot.
And I'm sure it's happened to a plenty of famous people.
And maybe it happened with Karen and her brother.
Usually that type of incest happens when kids are sexually molested by a family member. They then sexualize within the family.
It's not rocket science. And again, happens ALL the time.
- I saw Bette Midler in the mid-70s atthe Merriwether-Post Pavilion in Maryland. I remember that she made wisecracks about anyone who had recorded songs she had recorded. And yes, she was snide about Karen Carpenter. I felt that was unfair because the Carpenters had a big hit with "Superstar" long before Bette Midler was recording.
However, her comment about Helen Reddy, who had a hit with "Delta Dawn" long after Bette had done it, was brilliant.
"I am woman, who can tell?"
- A friend of mind lived next door to the C's when they were teens. She's the one who told me the incest rumors before I ever heard it anywhere else.
- Maybe their dad molested them both and that's how the rumors started...
It seems clear they were widely regarded as strange, way before the 2 became famous. Very weird dynamics in that family.
Poor Karen. She never had a chance.
Is it really true that Richard married his first cousin?
- You're not Rock Star Martyr are you?
- ...did Little Girl Blue address the lesbian rumors?
- [quote]Bette Midler was/is far superior in talent and singing ability to Karen Carpenter.
That isn't saying much. Karen Carpenter was a questionable talent but Midler is herself a very limited and unpleasant singer. The best thing I've ever read about Midler's singing is the quote below, which explains why her live performances are a lot more successful than someone with her musical abilities deserves.
[quote]For enhanced appreciation, Bette's mediocre vocal quality requires intervening comedy relief and her comedy requires an intervening lyrical respite.
- I can't believe there are people on this thread who consider Karen Carpenter a lesser or questionable talent.
- But that has always been the whole point of Midler R210. She's a comic and a singer. She really was born too late, she would have been fabulous as an entertainer and movie star in the 40s and 50s
- [quote]But that has always been the whole point of Midler [R210]. She's a comic and a singer. She really was born too late, she would have been fabulous as an entertainer and movie star in the 40s and 50s
Except Midler with her distinctive Jewish looks would never have made it as a movie star in the conservative 40s and 50s. Even changing her name wouldn't have helped. She might have been reasonably successful on Broadway and as a nightclub act though.
- Entertainer (R199,R200) your pointless bitchery must make people like you happy. Learn first to correct your spelling and then try to give me grammar lessons which of course i don't need and you know it...
- r214. Why did you get all unhinged at the incest rumor?
The poor carpenters had incest rumors about them when they were at the peak of their careers, so it's not like it's something new.
I don't believe them either, but I'm not unhinged like you.
If anything, I *could* believe the dad molested Karen (or both kids). And yes, Karen was likely a closet-lesbian, and no, there is nothing wrong with being gay.
Get a grip.
And the longer you go without answering the first language question the more it is clear it is not english.
- R215 it is clear that you are an insolent gay prick that knows nothing about savoir-vivre and politesse. You are so boorish and uneducated and usually people like you want to make others seem like you. I'm very experienced to the human race but i still feel frustration when i meet people of your kind. You are unfair, uptight and you haven't accept your sexuality yet so you have to spread wicked rumors on a thread.
- [quote] savoir-vivre and politesse.
- Of all the popular singers in the 20th century you pick these two, who are not alike in any way except in genre, to compare singing talents? Why not Barbra Streisand and Helen Reddy?
- [quote]I'm very experienced to the human race but i still feel frustration when i meet people of your kind.
First language: Japanese?
- I love Japanese but you are wrong about my first language. Oh...fix your gall issues R219, you are sick. Don't make me feel sorry for you.
- [quote]Don't make me feel sorry for you.
Hmm...mildly threatening passive aggressive: German?
- I'm not aggressive, just fair. Remember you attack The Carpenters first by spreading wicked rumors and yet you tried to insult me with deplorable insults. Hahaha. Some people are so wickedly ready to be mean. Incredible. Take my advice and go to see a psychologist 221 or whoever else you really are. Certainly you are not ok.
- I got it -- Dutch!
- No comments, i feel a kind of compassion for your bad psychology and i'll pass.
- "gall issues"??
"wicked rumors...deplorable insults"??
- Obviously your vocabulary is limited and you only know slang well. Ciao pet!
Read a literature book or two, they won't harm you.
- ...not related, huh? they both have the same squinched features...
- ok maybe Italian. But definitely unhinged.
- Richard Carpenter married his biological first cousin and had five children with her. Since he did that, the odds are high that he might have molested his own sister.
He tried to spin things to make it seem as though his first cousin was adopted but look at the picture R227 linked to and get back to me on that end.
- Right. They do look like biological cousins to be sure. And their children. Poor things. They all have those scrunchy rheumy faces too....
And Richard has schlepped them onstage has he not?
He does seem like a creepy character.
- Fun fact about anorexia: it's mainly found in girls because it's starvation with the specific intent to desexualize. Starvation is a fast way to lose the hips and breasts which occur in females around puberty. Hence why anorexia is most prevalent around that age in females. No amount of starvation takes away a dick and balls, or facial hair, etc.
Now, let's put on our thinking cap. Why was KC trying to desexualize herself? DEEP issues regarding sex and her body.
- ...her voice.
- one more.
(HATE Sing and Top of the World.)
- R226, do you know the homosex where the man go up into the man?
- I am going through a renewed Karen Carpenter obsession. Someone help me, please!!
- am i the only one...?
- I know a lot of people who are obsessed with Karen Carpenter (me included) but I don't think there's anybody obsessed with Bette Midler
- If Richard had taken that ham sandwich from Mama Cass and gave it to Karen, the world would be better off today.
- with just one sandwich?
- I think Midler is a MASTER performer, and I like her an awful lot, but no, I am not obsessed with her. I worry about my obsession with KC though...
did you ever see the SIZE of a sandwich made by that fat bitch Mama Cass?
- Poor Karen never got to fulfill her attraction to other women and had to endure the indignity of family weiner.
I think this is the story of millions of women who have ever lived on this keening and dying planet. But she left a legacy of a beautiful voice which, if you listen carefully, is the sound of a melancholy mother nature.
I know, Mary
- Those poor lesbians who never had Karen sing into their snatch
- I'm going to play my old Carpenters albums backwards to hear any messages that have to do with 12/21/12.
- Karen was NOT gay. She was bestest of friends, part 1, with "lipstick lesbian" Olivia Newton-John. ON-J said, "Karen was constantly trying to fix me up with her brother." And ON-J did NOT like Richard Carpenter. She was on Merv and she said, that he took way too much credit away from Karen.
- She was gay. She was simply too naive to be aware of it.
Listen to her speaking voice.
- If Karen had married Olivia instead of Burris she'd be alive and happy. She probably wanted to fix her with her brother because it was the only possibility she saw of keeping Olivia close to her. Anyway, I'm just speculating but, why would Karen want to force her best friend to be with someone she didn't like? Really twisted.
sadly, to deflect the sexual attention that Richard gave Karen onto Olivia.
That's probably why she was trying to set them up, it's was Karen's offbeat cry for help and hint to her best friend.
If Karen Carpenter doesn't ping I don't know who does.
She was the Ping-Ball Wizard.
- Taste is subjective, girls.
- [quote]Why don't you learn proper grammer and the English language before you attempt to express your opinions here.
If you're going to be a grammar queen, you'll need to know how to spell "grammar." After that, you'll need to learn to properly punctuate a question.
- I think until Bette completely recovers from this cancer scare and surgery, we should withhold comment about her lest we make the same mistake she made with Karen Carpenter.
- [quote]Eumir Deodato is AWESOME. Have been a fan for years.
Oh you're the one!
- Who keeps bumping these old-ass threads?