Stupid American, Scotch-Irish isn't a thing!

They are descended from Scottish people who settled in Ireland. Yes, it's a thing.

Unfortunately, this "friend" holds a doctorate.

Mother is Irish. Father is Scottish. How is it "not a thing?"

Ask the "friend" what part of Germany his ancestors are from.

Let's assume he's fair skinned and adorable and enjoys a little cocktail.

It's called "Scott-Irish" and it means people who are predominately Scottish and Irish with a little bit of English blood thrown in. It is a thing. Look it up.

"Scotch-Irish" is a thing.

Orangeman

Americans use it as a term, so it's a thing. Just because people don't use it as a term in the UK doesn't invalidate its use or its reality in the US.

How incredibly ethnocentric and self-centered of you to believe otherwise, OP!

It's simply the American description of someone with Protestant ancestors from Ulster/Northern Ireland, most likely Presbyterians. They, in turn, were the descendants of Scots settlers in that part of Ireland (brought there by the British to increase the Protestant population).

If this weren't a troll thread, which it is -- the OP has been furiously trying to rile people up with trite anti-UK threads for two days now involving teeth and food -- one could easily google it on one's phone and say to the imaginary PhD, "Oh look, a thing."

In what century does someone not have access to the internet to look up and show someone else that something is indeed "a thing"? Does the OP think most people don't know of this newfangled information superhighway?

[quote]It's called "Scott-Irish"

Scott Irish was a (straight) porn star back in the '80s.

The proper term is SCOTS-IRISH.

Correct R12. Scots hate to be referred to as scottish.

EVERYTHING IS A THING.

Damn, you people sound like 12-year-olds.

Damn you sound like a 90 year old.

Scotland.com: IS THERE REALLY SUCH A THING AS SCOTCH-IRISH

My family's ancestors went from Scotland to Ireland and lived there for generations. I'm Scots-Irish and yes, it's a "thing" in Great Britain.

How old is the OP that she can't imagine a scenario where anyone can type 'Scots Irish' into a phone and show the history of Scots Irish? OP is one of those fat lezzies on disability who can only afford a flip phone "for emergencies only. I don't want to be available all the time!!!"

The information age skipped right over OP, sitting at an ancient desktop, trying to make another OCD anti-English-person thread

The Scots aren't a thing. They're citizens of the UK.

R19 So are the (Northern) Irish, for that matter.

R10 is right. And it's why there is a sectarian element in Scotland that resembles the sectarianism of Northern Ireland (although obviously muted in comparison) - expressed by things like Glasgow having a Catholic and a Proddy football team.

So what's Black Irish?

I only recently found that I am Scots irish. My grandparents were Catholics from Northern Ireland. I knew my grandmother's grandfather had been an Anglo-Irish Protestant who married a catholic and was disowned by his family. But my mother only recently found out that her grandmother on her father's side had been Scottish. Her father never mentioned that his mother was from Scotland. He wanted everyone to believe he was 100% Irish.

I can understand that, r23. The biggest asshole I ever met is Scottish.

R22, supposedly Irish who have darker coloring, like eyes and hair, supposedly on account of Arab conquestors who traveled that far north and intermingled with the locals (they did get verifiably as far north as Poitiers, France) but that isn't certain.

I met a guy in Prague who declared that he wasn't English, he was a Yorkshireman. Not that I care at all.

[quote]supposedly on account of Arab conquestors

Oh, fucking dear.

"Scots-Irish" = self-description of Appalachian hillbilly Republicans as well as rich Pittsburgh Presbyterians.

13 of our president were of Scots-Irish ancestry.

This is my ancestry. It's Scots-Irish.

There is also Irish Scots; families whose ancestors emigrated from Ireland to Scotland for work. The singer Susan Boyle is an Irish Scot.

Stupid American, the British aren't your friends.

It's not a thing,

It is used by people of Irish descent in the US who don't want to be considered drunks with small dicks.

[quote] Unfortunately, this "friend" holds a doctorate

Obviously not in history. I hold a doctorate in Pharmacy. That doesn't make me an expert at anything else

R18 needs to get back on her meds. Maybe go back into the state ward for the insane?

and sweet sister, flip phones are coming back into fashion, so, since you are always so entrende, ditch your Isheep phone and dig out that flip phone!

My favorite word currently is "Glaswegian".

"Scotch" is used to describe the whisky made in Scotland. And the eggs.

A pope gave the English king license to "Christianize" Ireland. After Henry VIII made himself defacto pope of his own church, Catholics resisted conversion. Loyal Scots were sent to displace the native Irish in Ulster, especially resistant to the English king's whims. Thus, the Plantation of Ulster, under Hank, his daughter Elizabeth, the genocidal Cromwell and his glorious revolution, the restoration of monarchy under Dutch William of Orange, etc.

These are the forebears of the Protestant Loyalists, for whom six of Ulster's nine counties were carved out of Ireland. Picture Mandela agreeing to cutting a white-Afrikaaner-majority territory out of South Africa before liberation, and leaving a group of Blacks still left under Apartheid

So, this loyal population of Scots planters was useful in populating the American colonies. "Scots-Irish", distinct from Highlanders, etc.

Ironically, "Scot" was a name for the Irish that somehow got attached to Cakedonia, the land beyond Hadrian's Wall.

Glasgow is very similar to Belfast, and answering "Do ye support Glasgow Celtic or Glasgow Rangers?" in a manner not to the questioner's liking might get you bashed or worse.

Craig Ferguson's family was partly Irish-moved-to-Scotland. Miss him, not a fan of his Sassenach replacement.

So who are the shanty lace curtain Irish?

R22 "Black Irish" are those that resemble the Iberian Celts of Galicia, more than the Dane, Viking, or Norman-descended Irish.

Gabriel Byrne has Black Irish looks, and Colin Farrell. Brendan Gleeson, Domhnall Gleeson, Peter O'Toole don't.

Caledonia, rather. Though "Cakedonia" would be a good name for a confectionary bakery...dibs!

Black Irish?

Can you say Rob James-Collier of Downton Abbey?

Peter Gallagher could be on that list as well.

R38 - to paraphrase Law and Order: Shanty Lace Irish take the dishes out of the sink before they pee in it.

Me - I'm Black Irish, but I pee around the dishes when they are in the sink.

And the Sassenach filth Brits just pee on themselves.

Black Irish usually are attributed to intermarriage with Spanish traders and invaders.

Shanty--almost anyone of Irish Catholic descent started out as shanty; Catholics were excluded from professions for decades. There wasn't much of a middle class or aristocracy. An exception were the Irish who settled in what's considered Central NY State in the late 18th century. Shanty is contrasted with Lace Curtain--people who were well off middle class or wannabes--usually somewhere after the immigrant generation.

Scots-Irish--almost entirely Protestants from Northern Ireland; orange Irish. Most people you meet from the South who claim to be Irish are really Scots-Irish. Jim Webb wrote a book about them. Basically they're the guys who kill their wife and kids when she leaves him. There's a reason that Green Irish (people of Catholic derivation) don't consider orange Irish to be real Irish.

[quote] Shanty Lace Irish take the dishes out of the sink before they pee in it.

Shanty Irish are not the same as lace Irish. But thanks for playing. We have lovely parting gifts for you. Some Chapstick and an encyclopaedia Britannia

Dominic and John Gregory Dunne, posh Irish-Americans. Lace curtains.

Reba, Robert Redford, Scots-Irish.

Supposedly "hillbilly" derives from William Of Orange, aka King Billy, the Dutch King Of England.

My favorite guilty Irish pleasure.

So Scarlett O'Hara's father was Scots-Irish?

This is a very interesting thread. I know almost nothing of these populations or their histories, I've been meaning to read the Webb book as well as The Nine Nations of North America

Scottish people will mock you if you refer to Scots as Scotch or whisky as Scotch, even.

Oh please R45 - take a pill. Or maybe get drunk and tell us some very sad story.

But you are right - I got the quote wrong.

I'll guess I will pee in the toilet as penance.

R49 No. A Scots-Irish would never call his home for the hill of Tara, seat of the High King of Ireland.

The Scots-Irish saw the Celtic Irish the same way tgey'd see the Mohicans, or Apache. Natives to be displaced, dominated, and wiped out, if possible.

Also, Scarlett and her people were Catholic.

i agree with the hot uncut doctorate brit guy, could be hairy potter.

My grandparents both referred to themselves as Scotch. They both grew up in Cape Breton, N.S., though my Grandfather was born in Boston (his parents were working there over the winter). Everyone in both their families spoke Gaelic as a first language (my Grandfather didn't speak English until he started school). Neither has Irish blood that I know of, although my Grandfather's clan name originates in Ireland. My Grandmother's clan was never Irish.

Scots-Irish here.

With the Irish being protestant that came over in the 1700s. And a good chunk of the Scots coming by way of Protestant North Ireland.

We had to wear orange to school on St. Patrick's day.

NO GREEN EVER!!!!!

Talk about abuse! Nearly got pinched to death in grammar school.

Scotch is an alcoholic beverage. Scots are people from Scotland.

Any educated American knows this OP.

I am black Irish. I am tall and thin, have jet black curly hair and light blue eyes. My complexion is olive.

My entire life folks mistake me for Spanish or Italian.

[quote]Correct [R12]. Scots hate to be referred to as scottish.

I thought it was OK to call people Scottish. Or is that non-U?

What do the English call them, colloquially?

We always thought we were Irish. Turns out the surname is Scottish. And being protestant, it's pretty well a certainty we only stopped over in Ireland for a few generations on our way to the new world.

So glad to have dodged that catholic bullet and also to have ended up on this side of the big water where we don't really partake of sectarianism.

The plantation system was started in Ireland with the potato. The absentee landlords needed someone to collect rents and bully the local population. They certainly couldn't allow Irish to do it because the Irish would make common cause with their fellow countrymen, so they imported score presbyterians to do it. The English wanted as little contact as possible between themselves and the Irish. These Scots were called "overseers."

When plantations were started in America, the Scots Irish immigrants were used as overseers. They were really good at the job. They were insular, dour, "thrifty" and xenophobic. They treated the black slaves as badly as they treated the Irish, keeping them in abysmal conditions with scant food. The difference was that the scots and the English didn't mind if millions of Irish died, since it would make things easier for them to empty out the land of as many papists as possible. But black slaves had to be imported to America, so they were worth more than the Irish were worth in Ireland.

[quote]So Scarlett O'Hara's father was Scots-Irish?

No, he killed a man in Ireland, the agent of an English landlord, I believe, for whistling a sectarian song. That's why he had to leave the country. He had a neighbor in Georgia who was Scot-Irish and hated him with a passion.

If you can have Scotch tape, why can't you have Scotch Irish?

its called scott ireland. and it dates back to the 1400's he was a famouspioneer thatexploored finnish territory and discovered the first asteroid to hit earth, he used to stop over in scotlandand makeirish whiskey ergo the phrase

R65 I don't know if you're Irish, but you need to lay off the scotch.

Prince Philip's slur about the Scots:

7. To a driving instructor in Scotland - “How do you keep the natives off the booze long enough to get them through the test?”

The "Scots-Irish" were basically Scottish thugs (used by the English for their projects in Ireland and the US). I feel bad for the Irish that they're even somehow associated with Ireland.

any books you guys want to suggest about the history of Ireland, esp. with respect to the plantation system and the use of the Scots re: r62's comments?

Scotch is a drink = a thing.

Scottish or Scot is a person of Scottish heritage or someone born in Scotland.

Perhaps that is the problem!

If you're interested in how it has affected the development of US communities, R69, you could try Albion's Seeds by David Hackett Fisher.

Also: The Plantation of Ulster: War and Conflict in Ireland by Jonathan Bardon

Or: Sixteenth-Century Ireland: The Incomplete Conquest - Irish Landlords and the Extension of English Royal Power by Colm Lennon

I'm also linking to a British Library education page with some original sources.

R59 Scottish people prefer to be called Scottish. Scotch is a drink or an egg. R12 is an ignorant buffoon.

The British friend is the idiot; they are the same as Ulster Scots in the UK. They are the Protestants in Northern Ireland and they are a mix of Scottish and other British and Irish ethnicities.

Oh yay! Another term for fat-arsed Yanks to claim as their own so that they can project some misty-eyed claim to some other country's culture!

Away you go and fuck yourselves.

You can easily look at Wikipedia, R69..

[quote] Finally, the plantations and their related agricultural development radically altered Ireland's ecology and physical appearance. In 1600, most of Ireland was heavily wooded, apart from the bogs. Most of the population lived in small townlands, many migrating seasonally to fresh pastures for their cattle. By 1700, Ireland's native woodland had been decimated; it was intensively exploited by the new settlers for commercial ventures such as shipbuilding, as much of the English forests had been destroyed and the navy was becoming a great power.

It's funny, they've tried reforesting in Scotland and Ireland. The scots are ok with it and allow trees to be planted in large numbers in the countryside. But the Irish want nothing to do with it. They don't like trees and they don't want them. Trees drop leaves, requiring raking. They attract animals and the Irish are not the animal lovers that the English are. They went for centuries without pets because they didn't have enough to feed themselves. The only animals they see a need for are food sources (sheep, pigs, chickens) or horses (which are not treated well). They don't want any damned animal-filled trees blocking what little sunlight there is, requiring them to rake up leaves or pine needles. Trees come down in a storm, possibly on a house. No thank you!

OP is technically correct: there is no such think as Scotch-Irish. There are Scots-Irish people. There is Scotch whiskey and Irish whiskey. There is no no such things as Scotch-Irish, either people or whiskey.

Oh, really.

And I suppose there's no such thing as Anglo-Indians either.

Scots have HUMUNGOUS cocks. Irish the opposite. So Scots-Irish may be somewhere in the middle.

thanks, r71. Albion's Seed has been on my list for awhile. I'll check out your other recommendations and thanks for the link. r75, I hit that wiki page as soon as I read your interesting r62 comment. I noticed that it didn't mention the Irish plantation system as a template for the American slavery system, though, which was what really intrigued me.

[quote]A friend of mine got berated by a British "friend" a few days ago after they described themselves this way.

Not surprising. They'd love to a) forget this particular group of people existed since they come off poorly in history (treatment of the Irish and Blacks), and b) forget they don't dictate language and culture the way they did back when "Scots-Irish" originated.

If it helps OP, tell your friend to tell the Brit snot very condescendingly "or rather, let's speak of 'Ulster Scots' so you'll feel at ease".

I think we found the new "Norwegian Catholic" meme for this site.

Actually, R77, there is Scotch whisky and Irish whiskey.

Born Fighting: How the Scots-Irish Shaped America

Yes, R83, I know. Auto correct is as big a bitch as you are.

We did too R56 even though we were part Catholic Irish. My daddy was a Protestant who disdained St. Patrick's day and suggested we wear orange.

I am Scots-Irish. My grandfather whose name I share gave me a very Irish name, but he himself had a thick Scottish Brogue. My grandmother had a "Mac" Scotty name, both were Catholics. Most Scottish people are Presbyterian, and they were the first people I ever heard make Catholic, or Irish jokes.

Scots are the sweetest, kindest folks, but usually very troubled and depressed, just to be alive I've observed. Still, never expecting ANYTHING to be easy, or painless does save a lot of time wondering.

Is "Scotch" wrong and "Scot" right?

My grandmother said Scotch was wrong. Scottish.

OP, it's Scots-Irish. It IS a people, not a thing. They were the barons and peoples of the Royal Court of Scotland that were thrown off of their land in Scotland and in turn sent to live (steal) on the Irish landowners' land in Northern Ireland. They were essentially occupiers who stole the Irish peoples' land.

r69 playing with thequeen of scotch is a gret book you mite want to check out.

The correct term is SCOTS-Irish, not SCOTCH-Irish.

Scotch is a drink, not a person nor a group.

Apparently they are a thing after all.

R69 Thomas Keneally's "The Great Shame" is probably more readable. Ireland's population basically halved from around the era of the American Civil War, a demographic catastrophe which changed it forever.

Google "An Gorta Mor"-The Great Hunger, and rack rents in Ireland.

The Ulster Plantation doesn't refer to plantations per se, but to the planting of loyal Scots Protestants to colonize the rebel heartland.

Ireland was the laboratory where the English Imperialists honed the tactics with with which they colonized much of the world and her peoples

The "Scots-Irish" were, as has been pointed out, the Bull Conners that did their dirty work. Although, in fairness, many Ulster Protestants are lovely people. But the Orange Order lot are Bib Jones, KKK level fuckers.

thanks r94, added to the list.

Every word of R62 is true. They were/are miserable, sectarian xenophobes in Ireland and they carried that culture to the U.S. Anyone "proud" of being descended from these cretins is scum. Our worst enemies on the right, particularly the religious right, are overwhelmingly Scotch-Irish or influenced by their Southern/Appalachian culture. Pat Robertson is Ian Paisley; they're cut from the same cloth. Disgusted that they claim any part of being "Irish," they are interlopers there and despise the native culture and people.

R96

I'm a Brit and I have to agree. The only place in the UK where there is a seam of creationists and anti-gay activism similar to the religious right in the US, is among the Orange Ulstermen.

Here's a recent article about the DUP.

The above may have been the experience for some Scots-Irish in America (as overseers for plantations) but the vast majority of Appalachian Scots-Irish were NOT slaveowners.

Now as for their religiosity, I have no idea whether a direct correlation can be drawn from the Northern Ireland experience to the American one. Seems a stretch to me. The surnames may overlap, but an awful lot can change in 250 years.

If you are poor and of Irish ancestry you are Shanty Irish (because most likely you and your family lived in a shanty.)

Middle class Irish are Venetian blind Irish (because middle class household could afford Venetian blinds)

Upper class Irish were Lace Curtain Irish

I have been listening to the election overage in the UL and in particular northern Ireland. A large number of Catholics are crossing over to vote for the Democratic Unionist Party of Northern Ireland. These Catholic voters support the DUP because of its stand against abortion on demand. These Catholic voters also are middle class and fear a loss of economic standing if Westminster could cede Ulster to Dublin; the UK pumps a lot of money into Northern Ireland, something that the Republic could not afford to do.

Likewise, there are Protestant Republicans who want to severe ties with Westminster and join with Dublin. These voters don't want to be governed by a Parliament and Prime Minister that is located across the Irish Sea on another island. They would rather be governed by an administration on their own island.

These Catholic Unionists and Protestant Republicans tend to be younger voters. Their parents and grandparents tend to vote along established sectarian lines.

Scots-Irish = Protestant.

There were several protestant purges in Scotland over the centuries.

Most fled to North Ireland and then to the U.S.

You Americans are so funny with your obsession with ethnicity. According to findings online most white Americans are actually of German heritage. You lot are so funny.

Total thing. Northern Ireland is full of them. All of my northern Irish relatives had Irish and scots family. My grandfather's mother was Scottish. It worked both ways, btw. Irish Protestants married scots Protestants and Irish Catholics married Scots Catholics.

I wouldn't use the term "Scotch Irish," but would use "Scots Irish." Scots don't like being called "Scotch."

Scotch-Irish

[quote] Upper class Irish were Lace Curtain Irish

The reason why the Irish had lace curtains was because they made lace. The term "cottage industry" came from Ireland and Scotland, where woman made lace in their homes.

I'm wondering how Northern Ireland will enforce that UK border separating the six counties from the Republic. Without a hard border, immigrants and goods from the Euro zone would be able to stroll at will from the Republic to the six counties. Can't see how a hard border can be enforced without a return to watch towers, barbed wire, and armed guards.

Ireland is such a backward country.....they allow donkeys to roam through gardens.......as for the rampant catholicism well......no wonder you 'Americans' are so extremist.

So much mis-information in these posts it's hilarious. No, dear, the lace-curtain Irish are not called that because they made lace. No, dear, saying the Scots have different size cocks than the Irish is like saying people in Buffalo are bigger than people in Rochester. No dear Brits, just because you're born on the old side of the Atlantic doesn't mean you know anything, including how to play nice with other countries and peoples.

It's Scottish-Irish, not Scotch (which is a drink)

A Scot (noun) and Scottish (adjective) = person

Scotch = drink

My Scots-Irish ancestors originally settled in Kentucky during the Civil War, moved on to Texas, then homesteaded throughout the rural west. I think it's a thing because they were largely Confederate brutes and criminals.

Not all surprised your British friend said that. The British have a long history of deciding who does and doesn’t exist. Scotch-Irish Americans would definitely fall into the "we decided they aren't a thing" category.

It's definitely a thing here. It's a way to differentiate Northern v. Republic of Ireland ancestors without getting nasty. There are a lot of Americans into ancestry.

As for academia, it is used when tracing the roots of folk-type music that ended up in Appalachia and mixed with African rhythms. I've heard "Scots-Irish."

Here's an actual accented person using the term within a musical context:

"I'm Scotch-Irish."

No one knows about a site called Wikipedia (except R75) ?