Why do some succeed and others don't?

Jesus' favoritism

Luck Money Connections Etc. Etc.

Are you ten years old OP? What kind of idiot imagines "success" is based on talent?

Nickelback are an international joke and tacky as hell. Yes, they're rich, but they reek of douche. Some truly talented people possess talent and taste and wouldn't record that kind of phony corporate music for any amount of money.

I know a beautiful Eurasian girl that can play any instrument by ear,has the voice of an angel,and works as a nurse. She went to Julliard,and then spent a decade trying to get a break in show business. She finally gave up and became a licensed nurse. I always thought she didn't hit because of the times and her ethnicity.

So what is it based on R3?

Ambition, not talent, makes most performers successful, i.e. known, famous etc. Talent alone is not enough, there are plenty of talented people-- the need to succeed combined with some talent is what prevails in most areas.

It's a lesson that too many people don't learn or understand. You see examples on this board all the time of people complaining about less talented (knowledgeable, experienced, whatever) people getting promotions over them. What they fail to understand is ambitious people with some talent will most often be promoted over the merely talented. Ambition is about drive, doing what's necessary, playing the game, politics; some people don't have it--I don't; some people find it distasteful and believe that their talent alone should be enough; and some people don't have enough for the area they have chosen.

I agree with R7. I've seen people with marginal talent in all areas of life outpace those who are more talented based on the ambition of the marginally talented ones. As R7 writes, the ambitious types are driven, do what's necessary, and play the games and politics that I personally find repugnant. The ambitious ones usually get promoted over those who have more talent but don't do those things.

That is a very good explanation R7.

To expand this, let me ask about ambitious people who still fail.

I'm sure there were a dozen Madonnas out there, just as ambitious, just as willing to do whatever it took, but only she became famous.

If you look at office culture often those who are successful are strategic, ruthless, aggressive, manipulative and conniving. They may have only a modicum of talent, intellect or interpersonal skills. They don't care if people like them, only if they succeed.

Not surprising these people are not particularly nice, helpful, easy to collaborate with or particularly fun. They are there to succeed not to create community or be liked by their co-workers. They feel and act entitled.

Same skills at likely what takes you to the top in the music or film business.

I agree with r7's comments. My uncle started out in a low level position at a bank with just a two year degree. He took up playing golf and would schoomze with executives at the local golf club. My uncle worked his way up through the ranks of the bank to become a senior vice president by knowing the art of schmooze. Today, he and my aunt spend 3 months in Puerto Rico, 3 months in Cape Cod, and travel around on fancy vacations.

Sometimes there is a rare combination of truly talented and ambitious , people that many people would agree are truly talented and have made it to the top of their chosen area. But there are that is not the norm.

Sometimes leaving yourself no other recourse, is the very thing that makes the difference. Either you succeed or ...? That and belief.

R9, Madonna was quite smart though. After some talent and extraordinary ambition, I would say the next piece of the puzzle is intelligence or at least the ability to step back and assess yourself to figure out what you're doing wrong. That's why I wish people would talk more specifics about their "failures" or the dreams they didn't live up to. There's a lot to be learned from people who fail--I'd say even more than what could be learned from those that succeeded. Almost always, you'll see exactly where people fucked up.

But with the entertainment industry, people love to be cryptic and mysterious about things. There are hardly any practical answers out there.

Also agree with r7.

It's a lot like why straight men always complain that it's the asshole, not the "nice guy", who gets the girl.

As with talent, being a "nice guy" isn't enough; you also have to have confidence. Ambition, like confidence, is how you get your special qualities out there.

[quote]They are there to succeed not to create community or be liked by their co-workers.

Can you really blame them though? I don't like entitled attitudes in people (and I don't think people who act like this are necessarily entitled), but some goals in life require ruthless, hardcore focus. Why should anyone mess around trying to be friends with their peers when that's not what they want?

Not saying these folks are pleasant to be around, but at least they're getting what they want.

[quote]If you look at office culture often those who are successful are strategic, ruthless, aggressive, manipulative and conniving. They may have only a modicum of talent, intellect or interpersonal skills

What amazes me about people like this is they're too lazy to learn their jobs and work hard, but work their asses off at being underhanded and conniving.

My sister has been at the same store for 10 years. A new girl started and she immediately glommed onto my sister, asking questions about management and the customers, how to get promoted. Within six months she was promoted to department manager while my sister was passed over. She immediately stared treating my sister like shit, and was no longer the friendly young girl she presented herself as.

It wasn't until weeks later that my sister realized the young girl was pumping her for the information that my sister have learned over a decade and used that info to move herself up the ladder.

[quote]There's a lot to be learned from people who fail--I'd say even more than what could be learned from those that succeeded. Almost always, you'll see exactly where people fucked up.

I agree completely. A friend and I started a small magazine in 1992 called "Failure", with it being the opposite of the popular magazine "Success".

We were never able to get proper financing because everyone thought it was a depressing concept for a mag.

When the internet became popular we started a web based version, but it never really took off.

We interviewed people who's business had failed and presented these as examples of what not to do.

Like high class rent boys for men or gigolos for ladies or couples, some instinctively know "how to read" those already in positions of power. There are those that can charm and manipulate Harvey the Whale for roles and others who just get used.

[quote]Not saying these folks are pleasant to be around, but at least they're getting what they want

But R16 doesn't that contradict R11 s schmoozing uncle who ingratiated himself with the bank hierarchy?

This is where my confusion comes in--be ruthless and walk over anyone who stands in your way to success; or schmooze people and kill them with kindness to achieve your goals?

Which one is it?

[quote]There are those that can charm and manipulate Harvey the Whale for roles and others who just get used

Now those would be interesting people to talk to. For every Bradley Cooper there's a Michael Egan.

Be ruthless to competitors and schmooze to those you can use to propel yourself forward. Ability to assess which is which, when.

It's all about drive though. That's the ultimate determinant factor.

You need a minimal amount of talent, but it doesn't need to be that much. Working hard is not necessarily working hard to perfect your craft, it's working hard to succeed. That takes hard work (one I'm not about to put out). And meeting the right people at the right time: it all comes down to drive. If you're driven, you won't waste time with people that take you nowhere, and you'll quickly assess chances and always use opportunities to get further ahead.

Not a life for me.

The willingness and the ability to prostitute yourself. I'm not that person, but I also wouldn't hold it against someone who is.

That's a great post R22.

I think my problem has always been differentiating the time wasters from the people who could help me. I rarely know the difference.

R20, Thank you for your post. You're extremely good at "reading me." Yes I find Michael Egan far more physically attractive than Bradley Cooper. So why the difference in their career achievement?

Pure chance. People who are successful mostly want to believe it's down to personal attributes, but the truth is that some people who are talented and who deserve it on that basis alone succeed while others with the same qualities don't get anywhere; some people who are merely driven and ruthless make it to the top while others with intense drive and a lack of scruples simply crash and burn. Success is dependent on a million different things, some large, some small, some within one's control and some without. It's all chance.

I like what you wrote, R22. And thanks, R21. That's a skill I need to learn as well.

[quote]So why the difference in their career achievement?

I have to assume Bradley was willing to do things others were not and after doing those things used that info to get what he wanted.

R17, are you serious? I actually can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not. If not, I would love to have read a magazine like that. I wonder if there's something like it now on the web--like a comprehensive repository of people that failed and some insight into WHY they failed.

It reminds me of high school and college writing courses where we'd always learn the "correct" way to write by studying examples of bad essays. They were always more illuminating than the so-called "good" essays.

[quote]It's all chance

You're not a troll and I think you may be right.

Lina Morgana ended up dead and Stefani Germanotta became a star.

Maybe a better question is "why do some people fail and others don't"?

The movie "Fame" is a good guide.

It's about who you know and how great your cock sucking skills are. And you better be good looking, tall and skinny.

[quote]If not, I would love to have read a magazine like that

We only ran 3 issues before we ran out of money. The amount of rejection and anger we experienced was incredible.

This was during the height of self-help and the idea of starting a magazine featuring people who failed was met with derision and scorn.

There was another web based failure magazine but it has become nothing more than conspiracy theories and anti-gov't claptrap.

If you want to have a look at projects that fail, browse Kickstarter for a while and you'll see patterns emerging. Quite instructive.

Good point R31.

I'm actually going to do that R35. I've wondered why some Kickstarters do well and others don't (aside from the celebrity Kickstarters, which succeed for obvious reasons).

OP again.

A person who should have failed but never did--at least I think so, is Tyler Brûlé.

His entire life revolved around getting himself in front of a TV camera, even as a child.

He became a journalist and then started Wallpaper magazine.

People made a big deal when he sold it to Time/AOL but no one seemed to mention that he was dating the executive in charge of the purchase at the time.

R34/R17, maybe you should look into starting it again. Seriously! I wonder if it would be received differently now. I'd be interested enough to purchase a subscription depending on how informative the stories/interviews were.

At least there is a chance nowadays of getting discovered through Soundcloud or YouTube, even if you're a complete newcomer; this happened to Tobias Jesso Jr.

You're no longer 100% dependend on some record executive who may or may not listen to your demo or on some DJ.

You have a potential world wide audience at your fingertips, even if you're a niche artist (in that case you're benefiting from 'the long tail' of the web, as it's called in web 2.0 terminology).

In the case of Chad Kroeger, I think his success may have something to do with his ability to suck his own dick.

R38, why should he have failed? Sleeping with the executive in charge is a big leg up even though he does color one's perception of how hard Tyler truly worked.

FAILURE magazine sounds like a good idea to me.

R39 I did toy with the idea of starting it up again, but I've been out of the magazine business for decades, and have lost all my contacts.

I approached a couple of people who work with local magazines and was shown the door.

R40 I think that Canadian twink Shawn Mendes is a perfect example of what you talk about.

Most successful entertainment figures allow themselves to be heavily exploited in their first 5 to 7 years in the limelight..during this time lawyers, agents etc take nearly 100 percent of their earning and they are little more than prostitutes...if that is the life you crave you will be famous, but be careful what u wish for.

R42 because the guy was a vacuous twit. I remember seeing him on TV as a kid and wondering how this imbecile got on TV.

When he was 17 people were asking his opinions about politics and wars. I'm sure it had nothing to do with his father being a famous football player and his mother being a famous artist. No, it was because he was so insightful!

Music is about a lot of things, not just talent. First of all singers and musicians are a dime a dozen. Even talented ones. This is why there is so much competition.

The same goes for any "artist" profession like painting or writing or such.

We have a president of the United States not based on any qualifications but by simple luck. Oprah thought he was cute.

Obama only won his senate seat as his Republican opponent was involved in a sex scandal. Historically he was criticized for being a "do nothing." Even Dick Durbin his fellow Senator from Illinois, said Obama spent his two years in the Senate running for president.

Yet I'm sure you people will all rush to defend him. Why? Because you're too lazy or unwilling to look at facts or simply it's "jump on the bandwagon."

Marketability

I agree with the chance troll. Success has very little to do with hard work, talent, or even how you treat other people. Chance and luck are the biggest factors by far. Based on my life experience I'd wager it's all predetermined before you're even born.

Even ruthless ambition does not always work out. Sometimes even those people fail and then everyone says, well, they finally got what they deserved for being so evil and nasty to everyone else.

I know someone who was born rich into a trust fund family, became a doctor, treats everyone he's ever met like shit and continues to have good fortune heaped upon him, like he will win $400 on a scratch off ticket a few times a month, random huge discounts he doesn't need, mistakes in his favor, sells things he no longer wants or needs for far more than he paid for them or was given for free, stuff like that all the time. I would not associate with him at all if I were not forced to because he is literally so nasty and rude.

Biggest evidence: being born into a wealthy family gives you infinitely more opportunities. No matter how hard you work, no one can say some people deserve to be born into certain families and deserve to be given certain opportunities unless you believe in past lives and karma and all that, then maybe the famous and successful people in this life will be born AIDS babies with Ebola in Uganda in their next lives to balance it out.

Fuck you, R47. I'm 60, and we've never had a better President in my lifetime. And that includes the fabulous Mr. Bill.

Most celebs are mkultra puppets

I was just thinking of Jay Leno. He said in an interview he became successful because he was willing to work all the time, anywhere for any money even for no money.

Admittedly he was never the funniest guy on stage, but he did seem to be everywhere.

Then you have Rosie O'Donnell who would steal jokes from Jerry Seinfeld and use them in her own act. But she would work anywhere she could.

Then you have Seinfeld, again, willing to work constantly and anywhere he could.

Then there's Larry David who was a terrible comedian, but was a great story writer and now is one of the funniest people working.

I also want to mention a self-help "guru" and hypnotist Marshall Sylver. He started off the same time as Tony Robbins, but their careers took very different paths.

Sylver once wrote that the people who are most successful put themselves out in the public eye.

Could success just be a matter of making sure everyone knows your name?

OP your story about your sister demonstrates that you still do not understand how people get ahead in any industry. Being good at your job or acting or singing or writing is not enough. The girl that jumped over your sister wasn't lazy, she realized that she didn't need to know all the ins and outs of the job that she did not intend to stay in. She needed to know enough to advance to the next position. That's ambition.

Too many people, especially women, operate under the mistaken belief that their work speaks for itself, it doesn't. It's a belief thatif you're really good at your job someone will notice and will reward you. It doesn't work that way. Ambitious people know that. They promote themselves, they draw attention to themselves,they charm people, all the things that are mentioned above.

Thanks R54. Perfect sentiment.

[quote]She needed to know enough to advance to the next position. That's ambition

I don't appreciate your condescending tone R54, but you make a valid point.

The young woman's entire time working with my sister involved figuring how to get the promotion that my sister was sure she would be given based on her own work.

Tenacity. Perseverance. Initiative.

Also...

Luck. Family. Being Tall & Pretty. And Working Hard!

r22 I agree with your post, but I think you left out luck.

I've heard a lot of 'successful' people say that luck was a big factor in their ultimate success.

Yes, they were ambitious, driven, prostitutes, etc. but they were also in the right place at the right time through none of their own design.

r40 that's actually a bad thing.

Traditional A&R gatekeepers were there for a reason. The good ones, that is.

R47 Come again? He did not have any qualifications did he?

Barack Hussein Obama is the 44th and current President of the United States, and the first African American to hold the office.

Obama is a graduate of Columbia University and Harvard Law School, where he served as president of the Harvard Law Review. He was a community organizer in Chicago before earning his law degree. He worked as a civil rights attorney and taught constitutional law at the University of Chicago Law School from 1992 to 2004.

Nobody ever went broke underestimating popular taste.

[quote]To expand this, let me ask about ambitious people who still fail.

Ambitious people fail all the time.

But they quickly learn from their mistakes and keep going full speed ahead.

Madonna has "failed" countless times. She just keeps going.

For the OP ...

There's a guy at work. He takes credit for any and all successes even though he had nothing to do with them, and he deflects all blame whenever he's at fault.

Our clients love him because he "gets things done when others can't." And because they love him, he's protected and keeps getting promotions on their insistence.

Janet Jackson 1982 to present

10 Studio Albums, 2 Remix Albums, 3 Compilation Albums

Last Studio Album 2008.

6 Tours (Last Tour 2011)

Madonna 1983 to present

13 Studio Albums, 3 Soundtrack Albums, 4 Live Albums, 6 Compilation Albums

Last Studio Album 2015

10 Tours (Last Tour 2015)

R63 that's good one. persistence; perseverance

Re: Why do some succeed and others don't?

Fear.

Calloused knees and a strong back.

"We have a president of the United States not based on any qualifications but by simple luck. Oprah thought he was cute."

ROFLMAO. If you think that's the only reason people voted for him, you are dumb. Mitt Romney is "cute" and so is John Edwards but it didn't get them the presidency

Making it in showbiz isn't entirely about "ambition" - lord knows there are plenty of ambitious actors and singers who never make it. It has more to with things like looks, personality, charisma or, in the music world, being able to write catchy songs or make the connections that will allow you to record catchy songs written by others.

Madge flirted and fucked her way to the top, like the rest of them.

If you have a ethical nature or don't like to play games, you don't succeed.

Also, sometimes being successful at something you love doesn't turn out to be something you want. In other words, people shitting on your work or looks and such that you feel defeated and become resentful of your art.

I think some of the best artists are unknown.

r72, you are naive if you think you can sleep your way to the top, and have a 30 year career SOLELY by sleeping with the right people. Her music sucks now but at her peak her songs were genuinely fun and she had a lot of fans

There are tons of starlets who TRIED to sleep their way to the top but it didn't work.

Also, if you like making your music or like acting, who says you need to have a national stage to do something.

I think the internet is changing the way of the entertainment industry. We are seeing more unknowns enter the market and do more now because of the accessibility and freedom to share works.

So in the future, the connections and ambition might not be relevant anymore.

Just like Madge, they'd be relics of the past.

r74, lots of people post their songs on the internet. 99.9% of the people who do that don't get anywhere or make any money.

Success is swell and success is sweet, but every height has its drop. The less achievement, the less defeat.

r75

Some people are driven by money or accolades, the like what they are doing because it makes them happy. Money can't buy happiness. But money can make it sure easier to fake it.

Okay I feel like talking about a young actress I've seen several times.

She's talented. She's got a peculiar style (indeed, she IS peculiar), but that's also her signature. Find something that makes you unique.

The first time I met her I wondered if she wasn't insane. She wasn't famous then. I simply wondered if this girl wasn't crazy. So she stood out.

She's bossy. Some might call it, leadership. I think this also helps.

She's very attention-seeking. She almost always need to be in the spotlight. She will do anything to steal a scene, including cutting her partners' lines (she does this all the time).

Very hard-working. Has perfected a brand. So far she's only acted in one type of film, and it's served her well. She's very committed. To the material, to the promotion. She'll do what it takes.

Enjoys competition, and sports. Needs to win. In fact, I'd say needs to crush her opponent (this is more of a deduction from her general behaviour. I don't really know this for a fact). But she does practise a whole range of sports.

Will not shy away from nude scenes, in fact has done a bunch of them. But, will back out from a nude scene if she feels she can get away with it (project not strong enough, director unsure of himself).

Always taking on the next challenge. Works her ass off.

Pretty sure she stayed home with her parents while she was doing her first film roles and not hitting it big yet. So she could choose.

Something slightly unhinged about her. Not part of the crowd.

R73 stop posting, you clearly have no clue how entertainment works

AJ Finn the writer of Woman in the Window novel now being turned into a movie us a textbook case

R73 a gay man actually signed her to a record label, so she technically didn't sleep with the right people. She WAS fucking the two biggest DJs in NYC at the same time to help make it a success, so that in of itself is kind of impressive.

But then again, she was screwing Mark Kamins who brought her demo tape to the gay gay who signed her.

Her former manager also has stated that she got taken advantage of by a lot of people, she probably also slept with a lot of WRONG people who promised to do something for her but did not.

Life is a lot like the Miss America Pageant; the most beautiful or most talented girl rarely wins.

Madonna totally embodies this thread. Madonna had (blond) ambition. And she also had what others mentioned: instincts. I think Madonna's instincts have been one of her best qualities. She knew she needed Jellybean to produce and remix her songs. She knew she needed to have Nile Rodgers and only Nile Rodgers produce her second album to propel her to pop stardom. She knew she needed to have visual statements for her songs. She knew she needed to change her image to keep things exciting and not dated. She decided to not do another R&B/ballads album like Bedtime Stories and instinctively knew that her new direction should be electronic music. Hence, Ray of Light.

I think Madonna does have a modicum of talent (I know others disagree lol). She may not be the best singer but she had a nice tone to her singing voice. Not the best dancer, but she could dance well enough.

But I think it was her ambition, instincts and laser focus that propelled her to success.

R7 is spot on. If you don't have the will power to do WHATEVER it takes, then no matter how talented you are in this world, the mediocre at the same thing you do so well will pass you by. Also if you are very good looking that is the icing on the cake, as that is the extra grease. How many stupid pretty people are on Instagram?

I loved what Kate Hepburn said about herself, she said that with everything she had going for herself, including her family, she should have been a success.