How many of you NYC gays still live in Manhattan proper?

Queens here. You need $120,000/yr to live in Manhattan, minimum. Or have an apartment you started renting in 1983.

The theatre people I know are in the outer reaches of BK - Kensington, Bay Ridge. That's what's affordable on an artist's salary. Nice enough neighborhoods, but the commute is hell.

Queens here too. Very nice area, but it's quickly being taken over by Asians, and they are destroying it. Local government does nothing.

2

R1 is full of shit.

Rent stabilized, Harlem here 3 years.

I make about $100,000 a year and live in a very nice one bedroom (albeit on the third floor of a walk-up) on the Upper West Side. Couldn't be happier.

Yep! People are being priced out. I make over 6 figures and live in the Lower East Side, 2 bedroom rent stabilized, 4th floor walk up. My rent is 1858/month which is now considered cheap for the area and for what I have. The average studio in the area is now $2200/month.

I know it's me, but I don't really consider Harlem, or the Upper West Side (after 90th Street), Manhattan proper. I mean it is, but it isn't. They are beautiful neighborhoods though!

I'm in Astoria. I love it, but every freaking day a new monstrosity goes up and the rents goes up.

R4 seems unclear on the concept of "Manhattan proper". (Harlem has some lovely real estate, mind you.)

R6 is full of shit. Harlem, yes even Washington Heights are part of Manhattan proper. He needs to leave his hood a bit more.

I live in Manhattan, improper.

Do some simple math:

(Assuming 30% combined city/state/federal taxes+ SSI):

$120K/yr = about $84K after taxes = $7K/month

You could max out your 401K (pre-tax dollars) and still have about $6K/month after taxes.

$3K/month rent + saving $500/month still leaves $2500/month for living expenses.

For each $500/month free cash, it's roughly $8500 in gross income.

Depending on other expenses, it's clearly possible.

People love to inflate how "difficult" it is to live in Manhattan. You can still find plenty of great deals.

I live with a roommate in Hell's Kitchen. The rent is $2200 total. I've been in this apartment for 5 years- Harlem before that.

Yes, it is very, very possible to live in Manhattan and make well under 6 figures.

R11, in what world does someone making $120K/year only pay 30% total of their gross income in taxes / SSI?

You're forgetting that New York City levies a 3-4% personal income tax for the privilege of living and working there, on top of the state's 6.5% tax, plus making $120K puts you in the 28% federal tax bracket - so you'll pay roughly 40% of your income, not 30%. And that's before SSI, contributions to health insurance, etc.

So assume something closer to $6,000/month, which is still a nice chunk of change for most of the country, but if most 1BR's go for $3000+... also don't forget that many buildings and landlords require that you make 40 times your monthly rent in gross income to pass financial review.

I mean, it's definitely doable (I'd say anyone clearing $100K could "manage" the rent of a 1BR by themselves), and no one's crying for people making six figures, but damn it's an expensive place to live.

I live in Bay Ridge, where I have to put up with the Norwegian Catholics and their shit.

Yes, Harlem and Washington Heights are technically part of Manhattan, but they're not "Manhattan Manhattan" if you know what I mean.

Its insanely expensive, I don't know how you guys do it- hat's off! You're fun to visit!

[quote]Yes, Harlem and Washington Heights are technically part of Manhattan, but they're not "Manhattan Manhattan" if you know what I mean.

Yes, we know, Whoopi.

[quote]I live with a roommate in Hell's Kitchen. The rent is $2200 total. I've been in this apartment for 5 years- Harlem before that.

Well, $1100/month is still a lot of money, and still having a room mate after a certain age is a negative--but, I fully understand that it's a necessity in Manhattan.

[quote] in what world does someone making $120K/year only pay 30% total of their gross income in taxes / SS

The point was to do some back of the envelope math to get a directional sense of what it would take, not develop a detailed budget. I picked simple number for illustrative purposes.

If you have a different set assumptions - go ahead and modify the calculations - that's the point of my post - to articulate an approach to answer OP's question with whatever assumptions you want.

Harlem has become a gay Mecca. So many gays have moved there.

R14 = Peggy Olsen

I'm 34, and if I had to have a roommate at this age I would feel like killing myself. NY is a wonderful city, but people make a lot of sacrifices to live there. I'd rather be a frequent visitor and not have to deal with all the bullshit that goes with living there.

r19, rational, adorable and attractive in type :)

Good guy.

my boyfriend and I live fairly comfortably in a 1 br in Hell's Kitchen for $2000. We've been here for over a year now. They're still deals to be had in Manhattan. You must sacrifice space though.

I live way out in DitmasPark Brooklyn. Very much feels like the lower east side in the early 90s. Have a huge one bedroom for $1600 but I was lucky. The same size apartments in my building are now going for 2k.

R19, I understand, but... NYC is definitely not a "back of the envelope" kind of place, if you know what I mean. If people want to live in Manhattan without a roommate/partner or without "help" from family, they quickly learn the numbers of how much is going out the door each month, or have to find out the hard way.

And honestly it's unfortunate when someone making $120K a year can only budget to put away $500/month in savings. Even saving more than that (say $1000/month) - they'd still have to work about a decade more to save for a down payment on a 1BR in Manhattan, at which point prices will have risen so much they'll probably be priced out of buying anything anyway.

By the way, I say this as someone who owns a condo in midtown, so I'm not bitter about housing expenses personally - but I've seen a lot of friends get priced out, or people with nice cushy jobs living in cramped, tiny spaces.

[quote]my boyfriend and I live fairly comfortably in a 1 br in Hell's Kitchen for $2000. We've been here for over a year now. They're still deals to be had in Manhattan. You must sacrifice space though.

Having a partner to split a one bedroom makes things incredibly more affordable though. That is an unfair comparison with someone who would be willing alone.

[quote]I'm 34, and if I had to have a roommate at this age I would feel like killing myself. NY is a wonderful city, but people make a lot of sacrifices to live there. I'd rather be a frequent visitor and not have to deal with all the bullshit that goes with living there.

Just the reality. Having a roommate is very common in more expensive cities.

I recently bought a two-bedroom in Walker Tower, right in the heart of Chelsea, for under $10 million. I have friends who just picked up a townhouse in the West Village for under $7 million; of course it needs work, but still, not out-of-reach like London. You make it sound like Manhattan is Dubai or something.

I'm out. My partner and I make 150k combined, but with Manhattan rents we would be house-poor and wouldn't have enough money to really ENJOY the city that we love living in. We moved to Staten Island, work in lower Manhattan and have about a 45 minute commute. We have more than enough money to do whatever we want--invest, help our families, see shows, travel, etc. I'd much rather have a nice house, a doable commute, and be able to do whatever I want with my money.

[quote]my boyfriend and I live fairly comfortably in a 1 br in Hell's Kitchen for $2000. We've been here for over a year now. They're still deals to be had in Manhattan.

I suppose it's all relative. My friend in Dallas TX has a 5K square feet house and his mortgage is $1100/month.

I don't know how anyone manages in Manhattan on under $250K a year. Seriously.

[quote]Queens here too. Very nice area, but it's quickly being taken over by Asians, and they are destroying it. Local government does nothing.

Wait a minute... I just caught this. Exactly what do you mean here?

[R29], I'm curious, where in Staten Island did you move? I remember seeing an apartment on Clove Road across from the park and thinking it could work if my job weren't at Columbia.

[quote] I don't know how anyone manages in Manhattan on under $250K a year. Seriously.

I'm 57. West side here, mid 60s, 1br co-op, about 550 sf. I make around 130K. After 10% contribution to my 401K, taxes, medical, etc, my take-home is 6,000 a month. I have a 300K mortgage, payments are $1400 a month, co-op fees, including utilities and taxes are $1500 a month, insurance is $100, cable/internet is $175. Leaves me with $2800 for food and fun. Keep in mind that I have no car payment, car insurance, or gasoline to worry about. I buy a monthly Metrocard for $116 pre-tax dollars.

I have no house expenses such as roofing, repairs, or gardening to worry about, and when I wake up on a Saturday I make a pot of coffee and wonder what I'm going to do for fun, rather than worrying about what needs to be fixed, mowed, painted, or potted. The only thing that gets potted on the weekends is me.

I currently live in Manhattan. It is not cheap, but the whole point of living in NYC, in my opinion, is actually being in Manhattan.

If I could not continue to live in Manhattan, I would most likely choose to move. However, the thought of moving to Brooklyn (way OVER-HYPED by those who cannot afford to live in Manhattan) or even Queens (Ugggghhhh....) is enough to make me consider relocating to another city.

R30 But your friend lives in Dallas....YUCK!

R34, but you're one of the "lucky ones" who bought when a $300K mortgage could get you a 1BR co-op on the West Side. That's not possible nowadays.

I think we did this exercise in an older thread, but this is the breakdown for what I'd consider the "good life" for a young, single person in NYC, as glamorized by various TV shows and movies:

- Rent for 1BR in doorman/elevator building in Manhattan proper; no roommates - $3000-$3500/month. Doesn't include one-time costs like broker's fees (12-15% of annual rent) or moving fees ($1000+).

- Services/Utilities - $300-$400/month (cell phone - $100, internet & cable - $150, electricity - $100, etc.)

- Transportation - $120 - unlimited subway card; assume you're not in walking distance of work

- Food - $800/month. Assume $600 minimum for groceries (at $20/day for 3 meals, that's still very budget-conscious considering fresh stuff is pricey in NYC) and eating out with friends a couple of times (most meals in the $25-$50 range, incl. tip, though nicer restaurants or drinks will set you back more)

- Socializing - $500/month - if you go out to bars / clubs one or two times a week, expect to shell out $50 - $100 each time for a few drinks unless you catch happy hour (drinks are usually $12 + tip). Also, hopefully you're going out on dates.

- Clothes/Shoes - $200-$500/month - up to personal preference, but you need multiple work outfits, daily wear, "going-out" clothes, gym clothes, etc.

- Entertainment / Personal Purchases - $300-$1000/month - again up to personal preference, but say you catch a Broadway show once a month ($150 tickets), go out to the movies, go to the gym regularly (cheap if subsidized by your employer, but a gym like Equinox costs $150/month), buy books/MP3s on Amazon, decide to upgrade your iPhone, etc.

The above translates to roughly $5000-$7000 in monthly expenses, and doesn't include things like vacations (which can easily cost several hundred or a few thousand dollars) or fixed purchases like furniture, furnishings, or electronics like a laptop and TV. It also doesn't include, you know, savings.

In short, the fun-filled life of a young singleton in NYC is pretty expensive and either requires roommates or a cheaper neighborhood, a cushy job (which may require so many hours you won't enjoy the city much), or money from family.

[quote]If I could not continue to live in Manhattan, I would most likely choose to move. However, the thought of moving to Brooklyn (way OVER-HYPED by those who cannot afford to live in Manhattan) or even Queens (Ugggghhhh....) is enough to make me consider relocating to another city.

I agree with this. I lived in NJ and only considered moving to Manhattan if I could live in Manhattan proper. Sorry, although I love it, that didn't include Harlem and way up on the Upper/East side. If I had to move to those areas, Queens, Brooklyn, Astoria, etc., I just would have stayed in NJ.

Make no mistake, living in Manhattan is a blast--when you have some money. Other than that it could be a nightmare...

[quote]But your friend lives in Dallas....YUCK!

But he gets to NYC about every 6-8 weeks.

[quote] You need $120,000/yr to live in Manhattan, minimum. Or have an apartment you started renting in 1983.

Or work for someone wealthy who provides housing for you as part of your employment.

R37 is whack.

While you CAN spend that much you do not have to.

[quote]- Rent for 1BR in doorman/elevator building in Manhattan proper; no roommates - $3000-$3500/month. Doesn't include one-time costs like broker's fees (12-15% of annual rent) or moving fees ($1000+).

My rent, no roomate 1Br doorman/elevator building is 1880.

I would never waste money on cable. 800 a month for food...on what planet, I eat well and it does not cost nearly that much.

Fantasy budget.

R14 - what? I thought most Norwegians were Lutheran (Protestant)? Where did all of the Norwegian Catholics come from? Did they convert?

R42 - [bold]LONG[/bold] story. Enormous online debate over how many Norwegian Catholics lived in BK in 1960, via Mad Men.

R5 are you single?

or, have a rich husband

My buddy, who lives in your beautiful city has family money. Lower west side, beautiful apartment- good thing for mom and dad in flyover.

He does have a good job, but not that great. I suspect the family appreciates the apartment as an investment. We don't talk about those things and I really appreciate visiting.

My high school friend's family relocated to NYC in the 80s- upper east side on the park. I had the opportunity to spend summers in the city and on Long Island. I'm very grateful for having the opportunity to enjoy the lifestyle for over 30 years without the burdens. I truly do love NY, but it's not the same as it used to be. I'd not choose it now, "I've had sufficient." Love visiting, though.

Where the fuck is IDunno? This thread was created for his prolific google-inspired knowledge.

R47: Don't say its name three times, or it'll appear like Beelzebub

[quote]My buddy, who lives in your beautiful city has family money. Lower west side, beautiful apartment- good thing for mom and dad in flyover. He does have a good job, but not that great. I suspect the family appreciates the apartment as an investment. We don't talk about those things and I really appreciate visiting.

And this is what has saddened me about NYC. Some of these younger ones do not appreciate the privilege that they have to live in NYC. Some of them feel that it is some sort of an entitlement. The city has truly lost its color and diversity. A lot of it consists of cookie-cutter trust fund babies. Gone are the days, (or so it seems), that you're seeing the freelance musicians, artists, actors... the creative people, that can come here and contribute.

I remember meeting this young guy from Denmark, (very cute), whose dream it was to come to NYC to paint and create art. He eventually had to go back home. He simply couldn't afford to stay here. Very sad...

R46 is either Goop or David Burtka

Some of these expenses are totally out of control.

Again, I'm the one who has a roommate and pays $1100 for my share in Hell's Kitchen.

I spend about $50/week at Trader Joe's on groceries. Plus a few meals out a week, but I'm talking Chipotle or some pad Thai. Nothing outrageous.

I only buy new clothes when the old ones wear out. I'm not into fashion and neither are my friends.

I do spend about $400-500/month on theater tickets, but that's seeing several shows a week and taking advantage of rushes and discounts. $34/month gets me a moviepass subscription and my roommate and I split the electric and cable bills.

Verizon bill is $120. Work pays for my metrocard.

[quote]I only buy new clothes when the old ones wear out. I'm not into fashion and neither are my friends.

Absolutely impossible if you're living in Hell's Kitchen. However, you might define "wear out" as after 3 or 4 wearings... then I would agree with you.

A friend of mine has a VERY good job in the venture capital field. Where does she live? In the West 30's in a one-bedroom apartment. Even someone with her kind of salary can't really get anything nicer than that. Manhattan has just become fucking INSANE.

[quote][R46] is either Goop or David Burtka

I want to be David, Doogie is hawt to death.

I hated living in Manhattan, I moved outside of the city. I feel that now have a life beyond dealing with parking and people and making every task an 'effing production.

I never thought that I would loathe Manhattan living, but it really sucks. Unless of course, you are uber rich.

r50, I'm so Goop that I dragged my laundry down the front elevator and through the lobby. I was very quickly corrected; use the service elevator; never made that mistake again! That's when I learned how you people live- you upwardly mobile gals.

I can't believe what you guys are paying for a third floor walk-up, lord.

Anyone live in Jackson Heights? What's it like? How is the commute if you work in chelsea?

[quote][R6] is full of shit. Harlem, yes even Washington Heights are part of Manhattan proper. He needs to leave his hood a bit more.

He needs to wear his hood a little less. Harlem and Washington Heights are just darker than he likes, cracker bitch.

Why not live in Chelsea or HK?

Look, there's nothing better than knowing that I can walk over to the Lyceum any day this week 10 min before curtain and get a $29 balcony seat for Chita. THAT is why you live in Manhattan.

If you're in Jackson Heights or Staten Island or even Washington Heights you can't do that. (It will require much more planning.)

[quote]Look, there's nothing better than knowing that I can walk over to the Lyceum any day this week 10 min before curtain and get a $29 balcony seat for Chita. THAT is why you live in Manhattan.

THAT is fucking tragic.

R59: Without lying, how many times have you actually done that in the past year?

I moved out of NYC in 2008 after 20 years. I'd lived in Greenwich Village, Chelsea, HK before it was cool, Yorkville, Upper West Side and even for a spell on CPW. I'd lived with roommates throughout my 20s, a bf for a while in my 30s, and alone. In my 40s I started saving up for a downpayment to buy something and then the market crashed. I looked at several 1 bdrm co-ops and was getting very frustrated at what was in my budget ($650K).

At my dad's urging, I decided to take a look outside NYC. $650K got me a 2,000 square foot mid-century modern house on 2 completely private acres. I am a short train ride or drive from NYC and go into the city whenever I want.

It was the best decision for me. I am glad for my NYC experiences but this is where I want to be now.

R58, come off of your pedestal honey and remove the dildo from your ass--even though it feels good. It has nothing to do with race or the light versus the dark. Harlem is a great community and rightfully so. It's probably one of the few areas of NYC that is still culturally exciting and vibrant. The different shops, foods, entertainment, all makes it a great place to live. However, I don't consider it Manhattan proper and probably many of the residents would agree too since they don't want all of the interlopers.

Black folk are so quick to play the victim...

The point of living in NYC is to live in Manhattan. Anywhere else is pointless.

It's like moving to Chicago and going to the West Side. You don't move to a city and go to a crap neighborhood. Yes, Harlem and points north are crap. They may be nice, but they are not the cool place to be.

Rent control has destroyed NYC and SF. Learn Econ 101 and you can see why it never works.

R62: That sounds like Pleasantville, in Westchester.

Good for you, r62. In your 40s you were probably past the going-out-constantly phase anyway and a house with a yard sounded appealing. Friends of mine your age have done the same thing and they love it.

Every word out of R64's mouth is a lie, up to and including "and" and "the".

Manhattan, West Village. Rent stabilized apartment. Inflation is on the rise. I used to do brunch nearly every Sunday and ate out a lot. Now everything is really expensive. Went to Gristedes the other day: $6 pint of Ben & Jerry's and $6 Stouffer frozen dinner. I leverage some of the cost by buying at Costco.

Crime rate has increased, try not to live in Harlem or areas where there are projects. Although I think those places are safe during the day, not sure about late at night.

I had a co-worker (black) who lived in Harlem, was robbed several times while he worked with me. The robbers wanted his phones. Also, in certain areas uptown, they use knifes, they stab.

Someone I knew was robbed on xmas in Brooklyn, he was a martial arts expert and was able to fight off 2 robbers, nothing stolen just a few scratches.

R67, everything R64 has said is absolutely true. You appear to know nothing about NYC.

r28 I worked in your building for twelve years on the Ninth and Fourteenth floors. Great memories. They did a beautiful job with the conversion, especially the added upper floors.

With DeBlasio as mayor, crime rates, especially in poorer areas, are climbing. The police do not want to risk arrest situations where the administration does not have their back. At this pace, the city in terms of crime will revert back to the days pre-Guiliani.

That's what the city gets for electing an unqualified man who is a professional bureaucrat and a commie.

[quote]At my dad's urging, I decided to take a look outside NYC. $650K got me a 2,000 square foot mid-century modern house on 2 completely private acres. I am a short train ride or drive from NYC and go into the city whenever I want.

Sounds great to me.

Both Harlem & Washington Hgts are high crime areas & are not safe day or night, especially if you're white.

Only reason ppl are moving there, is because of somewhat lower housing prices. For now.

Any part of NYC or any American city, that is very near housing projects, is a shithole & not a safe area.

End of story.

Harlem, no matter what the NY Times and NY Realtors breathlessly try to tell you, is still a shitbox in many areas. Yes, it's improved, but it's still not safe and it's still pretty fucking ghetto. The black folks do not like the white folks moving into "their" neighborhood.

"Rent control has destroyed NYC and SF. Learn Econ 101 and you can see why it never works."

I can't speak to SF, but rent control is necessary in NYC. If we didn't have it, the middle class would be pushed right out.

If there were no rent control, every apartment would cost $6,000 per month and either be inhabited by the super rich or 20 Mexicans sharing a one bedroom apartment. Rent control leverages landlord greed.

r68 if you can't get to Costco, Western Beef on 16th, West of Ninth is the "most economical" close to the West Village. Avoid traffic lights by walking the High Line from Gansevoort to 16th, then the elevator to the street.

Had a good friend who lived in Harlem (W. 142nd St.), and he heard gun fire regularly from his apartment. His street in the evening was also crawling with rats. Even though his apartment was decent, I would not live there for at any cost. Period.

I was fucking a trick in my Manhattan studio the other night and my roommate was jacking and silently mouthing "FUCK, YEA!" from his bed.

[quote][R67], everything [R64] has said is absolutely true. You appear to know nothing about NYC.

Uh-huh. Let's explore the idiocy, shall we?

[quote]Yes, Harlem and points north are crap.

a. white bourgeois value judgment, not fact; b. Harlem has some of the nicest brownstones in New York, rivaling the nicer neighborhoods of Brooklyn. There's been quite a bit of new business moving into the neighborhood. You really should visit a nonwhite neighborhood sometime.

[quote]The point of living in NYC is to live in Manhattan. Anywhere else is pointless.

Again, bourgeois value judgments are not facts and are beyond evaluation as "true" or "false".

[quote]Rent control has destroyed NYC and SF. Learn Econ 101 and you can see why it never works.

"destroyed"? If landlords got to charge whatever they want, everybody's rent would go down? Care to explain how that works, Einstein?

gross

I wish we still had WW. For R79.

r72, it's going to get worse if the City Council has its way. They want to change the laws on drinking alcohol in the street and peeing in public, among other criminal offenses. We'll be back to the days of Mayor David Dinkins when Crime Ruled.

[quote]With DeBlasio as mayor, crime rates, especially in poorer areas, are climbing.

Uh-huh. We get it, you hate liberal Democrats. Reality, meanwhile, has a different story:

[bold]New York City murders hit record low in 2014: NY Times[/bold]

r77, I'm in Western Beef all the time. I buy their huge packages of meat and freeze it. It's a good store.

[quote]Crime rate has increased, try not to live in Harlem or areas where there are projects. Although I think those places are safe during the day, not sure about late at night.

You mean like 725 5th Avenue, New York, NY 10022, too?

"Improper" six-figure Manhattanite here.

Moved here in '94 right out of college. When everyone else without parental support moved to Alphabet City, Hell's Kitchen, the LES, or rented duplexes or storefronts and crammed 5+ people into them, I moved to Washington Heights. There were serious deals to be had there but the "Hudson" side was strictly regulated (12 real estate agencies to keep people out). I lived briefly in a nice two bedroom with a college friend on Fort Washington before moving to the ghetto side of the Heights (east of Broadway. West of Broadway was the demarcation line. Broadway itself was and remains sketchy).

20+ years later I still live on my ghetto block in a tiresome bldg. But I have a classic 5 (5 rooms and a claw footed tub bathroom with enough room for 2 people, however uncomfortably) to myself. French doors; original molding...but only two closets, though.

My low six figure income allows me to pay for the work the bldg. won't do properly. I get to live in Manhattan but the commute to midtown is so lengthy (45 minutes) that my friends have always referred to me as living in "Upstate New York."

If I didn't live here I would move to Inwood (the uppermost portion of Manhattan) or Queens (anywhere on the 7 line only: LIC-Flushing).

p.s. In '95 my college friend moved to NYC and his middle class parents cashed out their life insurance to give him his inheritance to buy an apartment, since he'd "never get married." He bought a 1 bedroom in Inwood with a sunken living room and tons of natural light with a huge bedroom & a great view of the Hudson for a pittance (way less than 50K). It's now worth at least 5 times what he paid back then. He's still there-- despite getting married. He sublet the apartment and then returned there after his civil union collapsed.

R71, I worked there too, although only briefly after they relocated the "reps" from WTC after the 1993 bombing (1993-1995). I wonder if I know you; I worked for Verizon for 26 years.

I live in Chelsea from 1981 until we left in 2014. 1990-2014 I was in a co-op - London Terrace - and I loved, loved, loved it until about 5 or so years ago. I don't know exactly why, although I think the face-down smartphone era might be why. So it was just too expensive, noisy, filthy, and crowded.

Off we went to retirement, $400K in equity from that co-op.

Saul Alinsky is alive and well under the guise of Bill deBlasio, nee Warren Wilhelm, Junior.

R84: too bad it's 2015 now. I already posted that NYC's murder rate is up 20% this year, as are shootings.

I live in San Francisco and can only wish we had one-bedroom apartments available at some of the prices you guys are quoting.

I'm in a nice but not spectacular one-bedroom near the Castro, where I pay nearly $3,000 a month, including utilities.

Now, I'm about to move to another state where housing costs are one-third what they are her in SF. Although it's only been a year since I signed my lease, my landlords have raised the rent to $3,500 for the next tenant.

But like those of you who would only live in Manhattan, I'd only live in San Francisco proper and only in a handful of neighborhoods: the Castro, Noe Valley, and the Mission.

Oakland? Berkeley? Even further down the Peninsula? No thanks.

Gays are moving to Harlem because Neil and his husband live there. Once they move out, the place will go back to being a shithole.

R80: Cool how you cut & pasted several different posters' posts & then present them like they were all made by the same person.

There are tons of nice brownstones in totally shit neighborhood, all over NYC. Harlem has some nice brownstones, but it also has waaaaay more shitty housing with shitty criminals living there. That still doesn't make me want to live in any of the brownstones. I like being able to leave my house without getting murdered.

R34 here

R37 describes a different way of life from how I live.

Yes, I was 'lucky' in that I bought my apartment in 2000 for 340K (refinanced in '10 to lower the rate and get cash for a remodel). Keep in mind that nobody knew real estate was going to do what it did in the 2000s. In fact, after September 11, some of us thought we'd experience a downturn in the market. I stayed put for the simple reason that I needed a place to life. I was not in any way trying to 'time' the RE market.

Rarely do my bf and I go out clubbing. The most we do is is after-work drinks in HK and then dinner out, once or twice a week. Most nights we eat in.

As someone mentioned, there are ways to go to the theater at a discount. We rarely see so-called 'must see' shows such as BOOK OF MORMON or FISH IN THE DARK. I did splurge on a full-priced ticket to THE AUDIENCE, but mostly it's TKTS or seat-filling services. We go to movies and Off and Off-Off Broadway. I joined the MOMA for $85. Movies are free for members and they have wonderful screenings.

We're now at the point where we buy clothes as needed to replace stuff that wears out. Clothing under $110 is tax-fee, so I try to keep items under that. Like I said, I'm 57 so it's not like people are oohing and ahhing at me anyway, and my workplace is casual. (I draw the line at Dockers. I like Bonobos).

We take one two-week overseas vacation a year, and maybe a couple of long weekends in Provincetown.

Right now, retiring at an age where I'm still able to enjoy things is #1 priority, so no, I guess we don't live the Big City Life to which many of you aspire.

R92 From what basement or trailer park are you posting?

We too left Chelsea for Morningside Heights, which we both love: no new construction, parks everywhere, "Old New York."

That said, we live on a hundred thousand a year, which is just possible in the City.

I'm not tempted by Brooklyn, but would live in Queens, I suppose. Parts of the Bronx are really nice.

R94, you should join TDF if you are eligible and are not already a member. Even if you can't join, TDF's Off-Off@9 program is open to anyone.

R94, you sound like an old, BUT HAPPY married couple! I enjoyed reading that...

There are only 42 "Good Buildings" in New York. How many of you Manhattanites live in one of those?

"I'm in a nice but not spectacular one-bedroom near the Castro, where I pay nearly $3,000 a month, including utilities."

I pay 1/3 that for the mortgage on a place that I own & occupy. A half-mile from the beach in South Florida.

I really have no sympathy for anyone still living in NYC or SF.

r92

where are you from? if you live in NYC it couldn't have been for very long.

Interepid gays have been moving to Harlem since the 90's, when the old public school on 126th and St. Nicholas was turned into a residential rental apt bldg. I'd only been here a couple of years but everyone was shocked at how quickly the building filled up, and by whom. It was considered high-risk for gay men to live in Harlem then.

Flash forward ten years: every gay household I knew who made 200K or less was buying in Harlem. Some to live, some to invest. Now, one has to be either rich or very poor to live in Harlem. No in between.

You've no idea what you are talking about.

I'll go you one better: $550/month HOA, electric, cell, cable; 15 minutes from the water, and 5 minutes from the town's edge, all on foot.

Addressing R100^

R100, South Florida? Hello Hurricanes?! Hello sink holes?! Hello skin cancer?!

R104 You also forgot Floridians!

Hi r104!

R100, you know not everyone moves to NYC or SF to live the high life (since so few do).

There are actually a lot of industries where the only jobs available, or the only companies hiring, are in those cities - tech, finance, media, etc. If Google and Facebook had offices in South Florida, I'm sure tons of people would move there too (and then real estate prices would jump and more people would be priced out).

I have a married friend who'd actually like to leave NYC with her husband and kid to have more space, but all the lower-cost cities they're looking at have no job opportunities available for either of them (they both work in finance), so they're stuck in NYC for now.

R107: There are high tech jobs everywhere, not just in NYC or the Silicon Valley/SF. In fact, many of them don't care where you live, since much of high tech work is done online, not in person.

R104: Hello, you're an idiot.

We haven't had a hurricane in 10 yrs, while you've had hurricane Sandy, a few floods & Snow-mageddon a few times each winter. Sinkholes? Not a one where I live. Ever. Skin cancer? Sunblock takes care of that.

Worst part about SoFla? All the New York tourists who come here every winter.

R104, my parents lived here in Florida (Gulf Coast) for 30 years. I followed every hurricane. None came near to them.

Instead, we froze without power in Chelsea for a week post-Sandy, unable to get anywhere.

Our buildings are regularly tested for sinkholes and there are no issues.

You're just as vulnerable.

I'm willing to bet the "only in Manhattan" snobs haven't lived here very long. Or don't live here at all.

Manhattan proper is square as fuck now. It's overwhelmed with bros, princess posses and carb-craving tourist fraus looking to Hoover up as many cupcakes as possible.

If that type of middle-brow, Olive Garden realness is your thing, mazel tov. But having airs around that kind of shit is hilarious.

R110 - lives in the south end of Staten Island, still wringing her hands over Big Ang's throat tumor diagnosis.

R32. (Re: Queens neighborhood) What the Asians do is buy a house and carve it up into a rooming house. And / or expand the house from property line to property line. My neighborhood has mostly nice lager older homes. They have been destroyed by the Asians. The shitty zoning laws are ignored by local government. So basically they will purchase a beautiful home, destroy any character and make it way too big for the lot, and make it illegal housing where shady characters roam in and out of, who are surely illegal immigrants. There's never adequate parking, so the streets are littered with shitty cars with out of state plates, also illegal, which the cops do nothing about. There's more cars parked on the streets with plates from Pennsylvania, Illinois, and other various states than New York plates. A wonderful well known desired neighborhood is quickly being destroyed, and is spreading like wildfire. One beautiful hose the next block over was knocked down, and a three floor apartment was erected in it space, industrial type brick, not a single parking spot. God knows how many people live in it, keep in mind it also has a basement which also has people living in it. This is not a large lot, and it's a residential block. It looks disgusting. Sad.

r14, get over yourself, Johnny-Come-Lately. Norwegians have been in Bay Ridge since the early 1900s.

R112...Flushing or nearby?

I have family that lived over that way, they got out when it was overrun with Koreans & Chinese.

The houses are carved up that way, so they can bring over illegal alien, pregnant Chinese, who now have an American citizen baby. They charge them big bucks.

Nice country, this America

Bingo R114. Bayside / Flushing, it's becoming a blur of shit.

R115: Too bad for my relatives...they moved from Flushing to a gorgeous house & neighborhood.

In Bayside.

r111 lives in Xenia, Ohio.

R117: I do not, but that pic is hysterical. You win!

I still think you live in Staten Island though.

[quote]The houses are carved up that way, so they can bring over illegal alien, pregnant Chinese, who now have an American citizen baby

The US is one of very few Western countries that still has that bullshit Anchor Baby law on the books. Most other countries got rid of it years ago because the law was being flagrantly abused. It needs to go in the US.

Wow..so many FReepers living in cousinfucker country posting on this thread.

STFU r120. You have no idea. None.

"I still think you live in Staten Island though."

sometimes I wish I did. hence my most bitter comment. too many years in manhattan and it starts to feel like a prison.

btw, you were on to something - I actually did go to Big Ang's Monkey Bar on Staten Island one night. The Italian guys there were hot. So don't be so quick to knock the area. (at least from a weenus perspective).

R112, do they put chain link fences around their property?

r114 & r119 I'm assuming your ancestors are all Mayflower types?

1- It is the USC which bestows citizenship upon any infant born on American soil. To change that you'll need and amendment. Good luck with getting that done.

2- In one or more rulings federal courts including the SCOTUS have clearly stated having an "anchor" child does not prevent an illegal from being deported. Indeed the USA has done so many times. However since that process is discretionary there is wide variation in how laws are enforced.

Basically the courts have said a parent has two options; remove themselves from US soil and take the child with them, or do the same but leave it or them in care of others.

Using the Kennedy immigration reform laws that promote family unification the Obama administration is all over the place regarding deportations.

If you believe last Sunday's New York Times Staten Island is the next big thing.

Also as evidenced by the same issue's article on the two gay flight attendants plenty of gays still live (or want to) in Manhattan.

That being said wish persons would cease lumping everyone into the gay "community".

Being gay does not in of itself make living in Manhattan much less NYC any easier or special. It all really comes down to household dynamics and personal choices.

For everyone Manhattan is fast becoming home to the upper middle class to wealthy. Unless you are willing to go way up North into Harlem and up into Washington Heights/Inwood finding "affordable" housing on a NYC median income will be tough.

So where do the non rich smart DL types live now? Queens? NJ? Brooklyn is expensive now, too, isn't it?

I took a stroll down 9th Ave. this evening in HK. Now that spring is arriving, the bars and restaurants have their windows open, and all the boys were out on the streets. Weather was beautiful, trees were in full bloom, and lots of really cute guys were sitting outside on terraces, having drinks in groups and doing some subtle (and not-so-subtle) cruising. There was a good mix of locals just coming back from work as well as tourists and out-of-towners trying to catch a meal at a Thai restaurant before the Broadway shows start.

And I thought - this place looks like a dream come true, especially if you grew up in or are coming from a town or suburb where it seemed like there wasn't a gay guy for miles. And it made me think of this thread. I fully understand why, if you can afford it and even if you really can't, people choose to spend so much money to live here. Because you only get to live once, and you could spend that life pinching your pennies and keeping your costs down living in a big, big house in a small, small town, but then you'll miss out on all the sights and sounds and energy that New York offers you just by walking out your door.

Yes, you can always visit, but I guess some people want to feel surrounded by that energy 24/7. And it's unfortunate that so many people are getting priced out from having that experience, but it doesn't change the fact that NYC - and Manhattan - is still a pretty amazing place to live.

r88 I was at 210 until 1990. On the day of the WTC attack in '93 I was at my desk on the 16th floor at 140 West Street. The floor shook, we thought it was a problem with the air conditioning. Soon we heard sirens. Looked out to see the horror at the garage of the hotel. Retired from 140 in '97.

r126, Staten Island may be the next big thing, but blacks will never get to live south of the Gangplank. Real estate agents steer prospective tenants to Stapleton and the North Shore.

I bought a 2 bedroom, 2 bath 1500' apt in the West Village in 1996 that is now worth 5 times what I paid for it. That kind of price appreciation didn't happen in many cities. My parents have a very lovely home in Florida that did not appreciate at all over the same period.

When I retire, I will easily be able to buy summer and winter homes/apartments almost anywhere that I want with (some of) proceeds of the sale.

We'll see about that, R131.

Does anyone live/have lived in Tudor City?

That's illegal R130

I do. Midtown West. Almost 34 years in NYC (2 and 1/2 in Ft. Greene).

Why do you ask, OP?

Manhattan has mutated into the world's largest shopping mall. Why anybody would insist on prying absurd prices to share a Manhattan studio is beyond me.

I don't know why anyone would live on Staten Island, the world's largest landfill is located there, even visible from space. Yes, it is closed now but still it is where the trash is.

They are trying to build the world largest ferris wheel there but once they announced it, Dubai said they will build a bigger one. So far, they haven't started work on it yet. However, they have started to work on the mall where the wheel is supposed to be located.

I think Staten Island is racist, I remember many incidents several years back.

R129, enjoy your retirement. I left last year, also from 140 West.

R134, illegal, schmeegal! Anyway, Blacks don't want to live with the Orthodox who came across the plank from Borough Park. And it's too long a trip from the South Shore on a bus or SIR to the Saint George ferry.

FYI

Rents soar in San Francisco...

New York City is Manhattan. Period.

Anything else is something else but it is NOT NYC.

Thank you so much MPC, for your astute observation from 1969.

Lived on W. 8th for a year in a shoebox studio, couldn't take it so i moved to Jersey City. $800 for 750 sqf 1 bedroom apartment. A couple of supermarket nearby, close to a mall, major transportation station (Journal Sq), PATH train that runs 24/7 takes me about 20minutes to 14th st. in Chelsea. Lots of fellow homos in my 'hood. Still saving to buy a condo somewhere but don't know if i'll be able to make it back to Manhattan soon.

We just sort of imagine that the Manhattan/Brooklyn idea is like the LA/Valley idea in LA.

We always lived in LA (as in Venice Beach, Marina del Rey, and Santa Monica)

But only losers and failures live in the Valley in LA.

I posted earlier in the thread about living in Staten Island. Best move I ever made. I'm in Dongan Hills, and have easy access to the train (which is useful really just for getting to and from the ferry) and to express buses. To downtown Manhattan, it's about 45 minutes. Nice, quiet, comfortable bus. The ferry and bus are both 24 hours. The transportation situation is FAR preferable to the outer parts of Brooklyn and Queens; I have friends and coworkers who live nowhere near a subway and have to rely on an express bus that only runs during rush hour.

I enjoy my time on the bus or ferry; I'll pay bills on my phone, listen to music, etc. And I have a lot of extra money to do what I want with. Don't have to nickel and dime, I can afford to see whatever theatre I want, take vacations, go to nice restaurants, etc.

Yes, there are a lot of Republicans here, but I've never encountered any homophobia. Most people are fiscally conservative. As far as racism--well, yes, that is an issue. I'm Italian, so I "blend" here, but if I were black no way would I even try to move to my neighborhood.

As far as ignorant comments about the dump--get over it, seriously. There's a landfill in Brooklyn that I believe only just recently closed. Manhattan once had a landfill, too. It in no way effects my daily life. There's way more positives than negatives. Lots of beautiful parks here, too.

And, the rents are really reasonable here, though we just bought something. My mortgage is about $1600 a month for a 3 bedroom house with a nice yard in a safe neighborhood. Can't find that anywhere else with such close proximity to Manhattan, unless you're in a really shitty neighborhood in Brooklyn. It's all in what you want and what your priorities are-for me, the longer commute is worth having extra money in my pocket.

Did anyone else see that article saying that LA is now basically what NYC used to be? And all of the artists and creative types are moving out there in droves.

I couldn't help but wonder...

R145 Do they still refer to the Blacks as "coloreds"?

R147, I feel like articles with the theme of "NYC is losing its edge; these cities are the new New York!" come out every week or so. I don't understand why so many New Yorkers have such anxiety about it (or I guess why non-New Yorkers want to read how NYC is no longer the place to be).

Is Brooklyn the new New York? Is London the new New York? Is L.A. the new New York? Is SF the new New York? Is Queens the new Brooklyn?

The answer to all the above is: no. Manhattan has definitely changed over the past few decades with the influx of money and cash, but the same could be said for the above cities as well (London and S.F. are in fact now more expensive, Brooklyn is almost as expensive as Manhattan, the over-development and congestion in L.A. are unreal, etc.) Also articles on the "old New York" are usually based on nostalgia and rose-tinted glasses (fed by movies and TV shows) about how Manhattan was some wonderland teeming with bohemian artists who didn't need to pay rent because their drug dealer was their landlord or something.

So yeah, New York has changed, but so has everywhere else.

Artist have been leaving NYC for the last decade, R150. That is a fact. The artist life that existed in downtown Manhattan, with studios and parties and film screenings and art happenings, is LONG GONE.

As a further example, R147, you'll find a similar kind of anxiety in L.A. about whether they're losing their edge as a "creative city" with the flight of film / TV productions away to cheaper / smaller cities like Vancouver, New Orleans, Atlanta, etc. "Are actors and artists leaving L.A. because it's become so expensive and focused on big-budget blockbusters? Is this a city where movies get financed but not filmed? How can independent filmmakers and smaller productions survive here if there are so many other cities with more generous tax credits?!" etc.

r128 gets it. He doesn't speak for me but he speaks for many of my friends.

I bought a Sugar Hill condo (not co-op) on W 151st back in 1999 for $45K and sold it in 2004 for $260k. The building was very nice and the block is bookended by two pocket parks. Plus we were next door to a police precinct so crime wasn't an issue. I moved to Chicago and rented for a year. I then took some of the equity and bought two high floor apartments (all of these apartments were 1-bedroom) in Clark and Maple for about 60% their original cost (this was right after the crash). I sold them both last year for $728k total. I'm now back in NYC (81st and CPW) in an apartment owned by my aunt who is in a nursing home. I take care of her plants for her and pay no rent.

I'd like to get back to Harlem but, thus far, haven't found anything that wouldn't take every dime of my equity (I'm looking a duplexes). However, there are beautiful homes there, many on W. 122nd (the old Doctors' Row), some designed by Tuthill. The area is very gentrified but many old families still live there. There also is new construction on 5th Ave. Fortunately I can wait 'til I see a deal.

[quote]As a further example, [R147], you'll find a similar kind of anxiety in L.A. about whether they're losing their edge as a "creative city" with the flight of film / TV productions away to cheaper / smaller cities like Vancouver, New Orleans, Atlanta, etc

If you read about it, those film tax incentives havens are actually losing money and starting to shrink their tax breaks for on location productions. I think Louisiana is the only one currently going strong. Also, California started its own tax break program last year and the effects are already being felt in the industry this year.

So, no the anxiety was there, but something is being done about it in California.

Nothing is being done in Manhattan to keep the art scene alive (if you don't count the galleries in Chelsea, which are a wonderful way to view contemporary art, by the way, but they only benefit already established artists and cater to super rich collectors).

What galleries in Chelsea, R154? There's 3 Duane Reades; 8 nail salons; a Chase and a CitiBank. Lots of strollers in that area now...

R154, do you think L.A. is in any way a cheaper place to live than NYC? People pay millions of dollars there to live in "modest" ranch homes that would go for $100K in most of the country.

The places that actually are affordable are either in "pre-gentrified" neighborhoods or are so far outside the city center that people don't really consider them "L.A."... hey, that sounds suspiciously similar to this thread about how people are being priced out to cheaper neighborhoods that people don't really consider "Manhattan proper" or even "New York".

As I said - I don't deny that artists and others who don't have big bucks are being priced out of major cities and prime neighborhoods. I just don't think other major cities like L.A., S.F., London, etc. can claim that they're not facing the same issues and that they've somehow become some artistic haven where struggling creative types will have an easy time paying their rent.

R155, unless they've all gone in the 9 months since I moved, walk down 24th Street between 9th and 10th (but not on a Sunday or Monday). Then check out the blocks from 21st to 26th. There are tons of galleries. I lived on 9th and 24th and we used to go all the time.

R157, the New York Times did a tour last week of 50 galleries in the city, and described Chelsea (while having the most in number) as being "in flux" due to rents and development. But yeah, still seems like there are plenty of galleries and spaces in the neighborhood, and the Times indicates there are actually more galleries in NY overall than there were in the past, probably due to the explosion in art sale prices - because galleries go where the money is, and the money is in NY and London (the same way film productions go to L.A. because that's where the money is as well).

So I guess I think it's a bit simplistic to say things like "artists are leaving N.Y. and galleries are closing because rents are too expensive", when the converse is "artists continue to come to N.Y. and new galleries are opening because that's where all the money is centered." I'd also say that "art" is a very broad term that covers fine arts, design, architecture, music, dance, film, theater, museums, etc., and in terms of numbers and variety New York still far outclasses other U.S. cities.

Another six-figure gay NYC native here. My issue with living in Manhattan is (a) the price to purchase a condo/co-op and (b) the monthly carrying charges. I'm sorry, even if I doubled my salary to a mid-six figure six figure gay, I don't know I would be able to justify to myself paying $3000-$5000 a month. I lived in Manhattan when I was fresh out of college and didn't think anything about having roomies again. As I got older, I was lucky enough to be able to sublet a friend's mother's 2 bedroom in Grammercy for a song. But, when it came time to buy, even with a great realtor, I knew I couldn't afford what I wanted in Manhattan. So, I looked and bought in Jackson Heights in Queens. I was able to purchase a pre-war 3 bedroom (one is really a sun room, but could be used as a proper 3rd bedroom) 2 bath co-op from the estate of the original owner's son who grew up and died there (not in the unit per se, but you know what I meant). This was in 2003 and while they were asking a reasonable amount, the place needed soooo much work I was able to get it for $212K. I've never regretted it. I'd say I've probably put another $80K into the place over the last 12 years. I'm only 3 blocks from the 7, E, F, R, M trains so I'm in the City in 20-40 mins depending where I'm going; 10 mins in a cab to LGA; 20 mins to JFK. Great restaurants and nice neighborhood (tho of course, there could be improvements). I pay just about $2200 for both mortgage and maintenance. Tell me where in Manhattan I can get a pre-war 1200 sq ft 3 bed/2 bath with a wood burning fireplace and elevator to apt door for that? Best part - prices in JH have sky rocketed! My same apartment in the building next door went for $759K last year, and another around the corner same apt just went on the market for $950K. Don't be afraid of the outer boroughs!

[quote]What galleries in Chelsea, [R154]? There's 3 Duane Reades; 8 nail salons; a Chase and a CitiBank. Lots of strollers in that area now...

There are around 200 galleries in Chelsea west of 10th ave, between 18th and 30th.

I hope you are not a NY-er. I mean it.

My partner and I have a combined income of around 300k. And we are SSssooooooooo Queens bound. Sunnyside specifically.

We tried buying in Brooklyn, but most everything is now bought with full cash there. Its insane. Even in Flatbush. That's why I laugh at all of the people sniffing about Brooklyn being this sad wannabe destination compared to Manhattan.

*Everyone* wants to be in Brooklyn. The European tourists, the trust funders. The hipsters. The bankers. Artists. Dynastic Asian wealth. Nouveau Russian oligarchs. Australian equity funds.

Goldman Sachs is buying up whole neighborhoods in Brooklyn to create a new financial product for its clients. Contribute 100k to this fund and you become an owner of sorts to a collection of buildings they bought.

Fucking unreal.

[quote][R157], the New York Times did a tour last week of 50 galleries in the city, and described Chelsea (while having the most in number) as being "in flux" due to rents and development. But yeah, still seems like there are plenty of galleries and spaces in the neighborhood, and the Times indicates there are actually more galleries in NY overall than there were in the past, probably due to the explosion in art sale prices - because galleries go where the money is, and the money is in NY and London (the same way film productions go to L.A. because that's where the money is as well).

We are not disputing the growth of the are selling market. It's huge and it's huge in Europe as well.

We are talking about art communities and the kind of art scene that't not about an expensive dinner in the open on the High Line. Those places and events are hyper exclusive. And that is what the art world is like in NYC right now.

[quote]"artists continue to come to N.Y. and new galleries are opening because that's where all the money is centered."

Artist are LEAVING NYC, but still coming to NYC to show their art. Most of the art shown in Chelsea is by non-American artists who do not live here, anyway.

Young artist have been moving to Los Angeles and the art scene in LA has been steadily flourishing. R147 must have read the same article I did, by the way.

[quote][R154], do you think L.A. is in any way a cheaper place to live than NYC? People pay millions of dollars there to live in "modest" ranch homes that would go for $100K in most of the country.

And NY-ers live in shoeboxes that would cost a fraction of what they do anyplace else. And? You can't compare real estate in LA or NYC and Ohio.

Yes, LA is cheaper to live than NYC.

[quote]The places that actually are affordable are either in "pre-gentrified" neighborhoods or are so far outside the city center that people don't really consider them "L.A."... hey, that sounds suspiciously similar to this thread about how people are being priced out to cheaper neighborhoods that people don't really consider "Manhattan proper" or even "New York".

I don't know if you have ever spent any time in LA, but LA is an incredibly varied city. You don't have a city center, but you have the option of living close to the ocean, up on the hill, down in the flats, around Silver Lake reservoir, under Griffith Park... there is more than one way of living in the city like LA than it is in NYC, where you mostly gravitate towards Manhattan, whether it's for work or fun. It's apples and oranges. Not comparable at all.

**ART selling market.

Though expensive as well, LA always seems to end up the cheaper place. You can eat and drink there for next to nothing. Share a beautiful house with someone for what a one bedroom would cost in NYC.

Industrial space is super-cheap too. And if you are a TRUE artist, you go where you can get an inexpensive studio. I know a ton of former NYC artists who are in places like Long Beach.

Now Im not saying LA is the better city. But it is sucking up a ton of NYC's artistic capital. Which is really sad.

I meant between 10th and 11th! How quickly we forget.

Eleven years ago, when I got a huge check for a book that I ghost wrote, I shopped around for a co-op in Manhattan. My cousin, who works at a bank, found out about a brownstone that was being foreclosed in downtown Brooklyn, which was no more expensive than the tiny one bedroom apartments that I was looking at in Manhattan. It took a lot of work but I now have a lovely three-floor home with a rental unit. The rent for the downstairs apartment covers about two thirds of my mortgage. If I ever get to the point where I can't or don't want to work, I can always live in the downstairs space and rent the upstairs for twice the cost of my monthly mortgage payments. I am so glad that I made the move.

Slightly off topic, but what would all of you think of the idea of moving LaGuardia Airport to the South Bronx?

Huge amount of space there, LGA would then be much closer to Manhattan, no bridges to cross & that airport now is never going to be able to grow & accommodate the # of travelers that need to go through it.

That was smart. But you could never do the same today, unfortunately.

Does Roosevelt Island count as "Manhattan proper"?

R169...yes, it does.

r159 I LOVE Jackson Heights. Good for you!

My friend who spent DECADES housesitting because she was a British national finally bought a house in JH five years ago. It's exquisite. Now I finally have someone local to dine with when I go to Queens, since none of my "I live in Manhattan why would I go to Queens" snob friends ever want to trek out there for the first rate Asian cuisine and old school multinational sandwich shops there.

[quote]My friend who spent DECADES housesitting

You mean, rent free? How did she manage to do that?

It was a business for her, r172. She initially put ads in the NYT, NY Press, and the Village Voice, but afterwards it was word of mouth. I've visited her in some of the loveliest and also weirdest/creepiest living spaces imaginable. She specialized in pet-sitting.

She always maintained a full time job and would go back to England for a week or so every six months. She went to college here as an adult and then at 38 suddenly announced she was buying a house. Folks all shat on her for going to JH but they were just jealous. I was thrilled for her.

The house is lovely. I am not stalwart enough to live as she did for over 50 years just so I can own my own home.

Good to see people mentioning Staten Island.

Though most transplants might brush the place off SI has always had a LGBT presence.

Though rather provincial (think more New Jersey than say Manhattan), Staten Island is probably more for gays seeking a certain suburban lifestyle.

One of the more touching stories that came out of TS Sandy was an older gay man who lost his partner during the storm (drowned IIRC). The two men lived together for decades and much of their street/community came together to provide emotional and financial support for the funeral and to aid the suriving partner.

As another poster mentioned you can find some great housing deals on Staten Island, especially if older (Victorian, Tudor, etc...) houses are up your street.

It's not just rent. Every single time you step out your door it costs money to live in Manhattan. I want to urge you to try something. I don't care how much you earn. Try keeping a daily journal of every single dime you spend. Do it for two weeks. It will scare the crap out of you.

It's a very inconvenient place to live. If you have no washer or dryer in your apartment, you have to pay for laundry. The price of food is so high you end up eating out. Most apartments are so small you can't entertain, so you go out to meet friends, usually at local bars. Everything costs money.

I lived in NYC for 10 years but by the time I turned 35 I was over it. I'm in a suburb of Chicago now, and I love it. I'm happy, and calm and peaceful.

Why you cannot afford to live in NYC.

Some nice person has already done the numbers....

I don't want to pay that much to live in a fascist Epcot Center perversion of the real NYC, the one entombed in the past

Everyone on this thread sounds so bitter about NYC. Oh, right, I'm on Datalounge. I think you're just jealous of those of us who can afford to live in Manhattan. And that article is ridiculous - who cares about parking & gas prices if you live in Manhattan? Who needs a car?

Even Hoboken has gotten ridiculous rent-wise.

Hoboken? Ew,I'm dyin' again!

R178

Apparently plenty of persons living in Manhattan *do* need a vehicle. Try finding street parking overnight in many areas except the avenues; it often cannot be done near one's home. If you are leaving the next morning and thus not bothered by street cleaning rules things become slightly easier.

Hoboken is shit. I would never live there. The stinking place floods with just a few inches of rain. A tiny mini storm and the streets will flood. Folks, don't live in Hoboken.

I agree, it is very hard for people with normal wages to live in the city. Most of the people I know are sharing apts/houses in Queens, Brooklyn, Mahattan and they are all in their late 30s already.

Unless you have rich parents, trust funds etc. It's very hard to "enjoy" the city.

Ahhhh, the "just jealous" accusation. Such the refuge of narcissistic 1/2 wits.

I'll be honest, my bitterness about Manhattan comes primarily from the fact that it is now packed cheek to jowl with mediocre queens like r178.

I'm wondering how dumb you would have to be to throw away so much money renting when you could have a mansion down south making that kind of money and still visit New York every weekend if you wanted.

Mary r166 doesn't have anything - the bank owns her property and she is allowed to live in it as long as she pays a high monthly rent (aka mortgage) to the bank.

I live 25 hours away from NYC by plane and have never given any thought to living there. But isn't there going to be a point where Manhattan is going to lose its appeal due to the fact that you have to be so wealthy to live there comfortably? Extreme wealth isn't all that fashionable in the era of income equakity. Will it get to a point where people won't even want to live there because it won't be trendy to do so?

I'll be honest, my bitterness about Manhattan comes primarily from the fact that it is now packed cheek to jowl with mommies with indigo children and SUV sized prams, and mediocre most everybody, all face down in their smart phones.

Brooklyn, now. Lived in the East Village but had to abandon for more space: our 300 square foot shoebox was going up to $2000. 5 YEARS AGO. So off we went to Williamsburg (Graham, not Bedford). I love our neighborhood, and I love how big our place is, but the rent is creeeeeeping up again and I am eyeing other neighborhoods. The problem is that after a decade here I am still struggling every day with money. Made great strides in my profession (theatre) but scrape by every month. Yes, I could find a cheaper neighborhood, but I didn't move here to live in Bayside or Ozone Park. The clock is ticking for me, and I am looking at moving home. Which is AWFUL.

R189

You should totally be looking into those 80/20 buildings and or those specifically designated for actors/theatre. See link below to get started.

Know plenty of gays who are applying for 80/20 buildings in Manhattan and Brooklyn. Heck even a former lesbian staffer of Christine Quinn nabbed an "affordable" unit in a new Chelsea development for and her wife/family.

189, if home is so awful I would imagine you WOULD rather be in Bayside.

Seriously. Think about it.

The mega-rich are parasites. They offer nothing. They consume. They're awful, rude, cold, selfish, tacky, weird, predatory, etc. It needs to be understood that the varied cultural heritage of NYC may have been funded by the wealthy (noblesse oblige, rip), but that era is gone.

Soon, they will be all over each other, outnumbering good people, being awful and ridiculous. The creepy rich and their imported servants. Eventually, NYC will die, but it will not be immediately noticeable to them and will be denied with much fervor. Manhattan will be mutate into a giant Epcot Center, a sterile open-air crypt for narcissist fraus and transnational creeps. It will lose all its excitement and cool factor. It will just die. It's dying now.

The rich will be the last to know. They'll notice something is missing, but they won't know what it is, because they don't have soul. All the artists are leaving, all the unique people, the trendsetters who can live on nothing (immaterialists) are leaving. You should get out now and allow these reptilians to consume themselves in paranoia, racism, police state activities, Disney-approved arts and the wicked vagaries of the financial world.

NYC is fun to visit, wouldn't want to live there. It seems kind of boring compared to what I have read from the "terrible" days of the 70's and 80's. Who wants to live surrounded by very wealthy people who complain all the time? Not me. I like a house with a garden and space. I'm also 30 mins from a big city. NYC just seems like Disneyworld for the rich these days. It's not authentic.

Like others have said, Manhattan has lost a lot of its charm now that it is so sterile, franchised out and just a playground for the rich.

Manhattan is the new outer borough. Brooklyn is where everything is happening now.

I've been living in Manhattan for over twenty five years (Yikes). I lived in the West 90's for close to 10 years, then West 49th, now I'm in Manhattan Plaza. If I didn't live in MP, I could NEVER afford living in the city. A few months back, I had no job and no unemployment, so my rent was less the $100. As you know, rent includes gas, water, electricity and an occasional Jan Maxwell sighting.

r196, glad you have a good place to live. Is MP why Kenny Kramer could afford to live in NYC while having no visible means of support?

[quote]Mary [R166] doesn't have anything - the bank owns her property and she is allowed to live in it as long as she pays a high monthly rent (aka mortgage) to the bank.

I don't have anything? In nine more years, at the age of 46, I will OWN my own home outright and the income from the apartment will be going straight into my retirement account. Had I not purchased, I would be paying rent, but in nine years, I'd still be paying (higher) rent and have nothing to show for it.

Had I purchased a co-op, my mortgage would be the same but I would also be paying a huge monthly fee to the co-op board and I would not have a rental apartment to offset the cost.

Oh, and BTW, the bank now had only a 1/3 share in my house.

Yesterday's NYT had a neighborhood piece on Ridgewood in Queens, saying it's the "next" big thing.

Mostly from the overflow from surrounding, now higher priced areas in both Bklyn & Queens.

In about 5 yrs time, ppl are going to be commuting to NYC for work, from Cincinnati

Oh, and just to make MPC really jealous, My brownstone is worth half a million more than I paid for it, so even with the bank still owning a share, I would pretty much make all of my money back if I decided to sell. I put a lot of hard work into restoring that place. It was a dump when I bought it.

Similar story, which I've shared on DL before.

I moved to NYC in 1980 to go to graduate school. I had a nice apartment on the UWS, but it was expensive for a student. My wonderful parents loved to come to NYC for visits and would camp out in my apartment.

Shortly before I graduated, we had a conversation. The gist of it was that they were concerned about what I was spending on rent, and about the financial situation I might end up in, once I graduated. Their advice was that if I was going to stay in NY, to forgo living in a Manhattan apartment and find a house with the possibility of rental income nearby. They suggested I look at a map and identify gentrifying communities one subway stop out of Manhattan, in Brooklyn, Queens, or New Jersey.

I followed their advice and began the search. I found a fixer-upper brownstone in Fort Greene, Brooklyn for $70,000. My parents gave me the downpayment as a graduation gift.

I spent about 5 years renovating the space (with my new BF). Eventually, we ended up with a lovely triplex for us, and a garden apartment as a rental. The rent we received almost covered the monthly mortgage. Unfortunately, many of our Manhattan friends wouldn't come to visit us across the river.

Skip ahead 35 years. Today, the house is worth about $3M. We have no mortgage and no debts. We've had only 3 tenants in 35 years, and the current tenant has become one of our best friends. We host an annual Fourth of July party and a Christmas party, and our Manhattan friends are happy and eager to attend. They marvel at the amount of space we have (4 bedrooms, 2.5 baths, LR, DR, kitchen, deck and back yard with a gazebo and fish pond). And it's so quiet!

So, I have my wonderful parents to thank for the creative idea and leap of faith that got me here and kept me here. I still think solutions like this are possible,

R201: What a GREAT story. Good for you & thank your parents.

Dump your BF & give me a call.

NYC has become so outrageously expensive, I always wonder "can there really be THAT many filthy rich people?" And of course the answer is yes. It amazes me how so many people are so fucking rich.

Westchester?

The Property Brothers (HGTV) are filming this season in NY - article on how they are spending their time. Cracked up at the visual of a woman from Queens chasing them down the street ranting "Open concept sucks!"

Rents for Manhattan are pushing persons into Brooklyn and Queens which now are experiencing pressure. That leaves the Bronx and Staten Island.

That being said it is all relative. If you are willing to work hard at looking and accept living above say mid-town you *may* be able to find something reasonable.

Gays like everyone else searching for affordable housing in Manhattan are going to the Upper East Side/Yorkville (anything on or east of Lexington Avenue to East End), Spanish/Italian Harlem, West Harlem, Morningside Heights and Inwood.

If you look at the Sunday NYT's real estate section at least once per month one LGBT makes it into the "searching" feature. Unless they are big money you find they end up in one of the above areas mentioned. It is also no accident current DL fave Gio Genitez was spotted in the East 90's a few weeks back IIRC.

You are seeing gays and lesbians walking around hand in hand on Second, First and York Avenues in the East 80's and 90's. In fact saw two gay dads with their kid in Pinkberry's on Second a few weeks ago.

Gee, thanks for that NYT link about the art world still surviving in New York, R whoever it was.

Knowing I can see stuff like this in NYC is so reassuring.

[quote]My wonderful parents loved to come to NYC for visits and would camp out in my apartment.

I can't think of anything less wonderful than having parents who like to 'camp out' in my apartment.

[quote]We host an annual Fourth of July party and a Christmas party, and our Manhattan friends are happy and eager to attend. They marvel at the amount of space we have

'Eager', 'marvel', 'my wonderful parents'...I can smell the stench of your misery across the Atlantic. You're kidding no one.

[quote]the "Hudson" side was strictly regulated (12 real estate agencies to keep people out).

What does that mean?

I'm in Northern California in an expensive rural area north of San Francisco but it's cheap compared to SF and NY these days. I flew into LAX last Wednesday to do some gallery hopping in LA, Venice, and Santa Monica. I hadn't been to LA in at least 12 years. The beach communities are still beautiful but the traffic was HORRENDOUS everywhere, morning, all day, and night. It was really hard to get around.

My family comes from San Francisco. My parents bought their first house for $11,000 in the fifties, their second house for $35,000 in the sixties, and we sold it several years ago after my parents passed for about $900,000. I love my siblings but that's one time I wished I were an only child.

[quote]I'm wondering how dumb you would have to be to throw away so much money renting when you could have a mansion down south making that kind of money and still visit New York every weekend if you wanted.

And I'm wondering how dumb you have to be not to realize that very few jobs in places where mansions are affordable pay that kind of money. Can anyone really be THAT dumb?

I don't think stories like yours can happen anymore, R201. Over the last 30 odd years, changes in information technology, communications, transportation and increased globalization has led to rapid growth in desirable locations. That just won't happen anymore. The days of property prices increasing forty-fold over 35 years will not happen again.

[quote] I love our neighborhood, and I love how big our place is, but the rent is creeeeeeping up again and I am eyeing other neighborhoods. The problem is that after a decade here I am still struggling every day with money. Made great strides in my profession (theatre) but scrape by every month.

That makes me sad. Artist and creative people simply cannot survive in NYC unless they're very successful. I left NYC after twenty years, because I could not imagine myself being middle aged and living in a 400 sq ft sixth floor walk up in East Village. The thought of it depressed me. So even though my apartment was rent stabilized, I broke my lease and moved west. My ten year plan is to find a way to move to Europe (I have a passport from an EU country) and I've already started making business connections there.

By the way, I do not miss NYC at all.

R213, what is your trade?

[quote]I lived in NYC for 10 years but by the time I turned 35 I was over it. I'm in a suburb of Chicago now, and I love it. I'm happy, and calm and peaceful.

What suburb of Chicago, just curious? I'd think for an ex-New Yorker, it would have to be an Evanston or Oak Park-type place. Or did you go full suburban and live somewhere like Glen Ellyn or Schaumburg? (of course, there are about a hundred other options as well).

Film, R214.

[quote]The beach communities are still beautiful but the traffic was HORRENDOUS everywhere, morning, all day, and night. It was really hard to get around.

This totally ruins LA for me, especially if you have to use your car to go EVERYWHERE...and then the hassle of parking.

This has sort of happened in London though not SO bad. But it used to be a pleasure driving around London on a sunny day....hard to imagine now.

[quote]and we sold it several years ago after my parents passed for about $900,000. I love my siblings but that's one time I wished I were an only child.

Why? Because you had to divide the money or because you had to sell the house?

[quote]The beach communities are still beautiful but the traffic was HORRENDOUS everywhere, morning, all day, and night. It was really hard to get around.

I admit, I've only lived in LA for six months, but I have only once experienced the kind of horrendous traffic you describe - driving to Venice from WeHo and back, on a Saturday afternoon. Weekend evenings are just bad for driving.

#217, joking because we had to divide the money. I would have like to hang onto the house longer but my older sister, the trustee, wanted to sell. She could sell without our permission so we agreed to sell, too.

The rental income was great butit wasn't enough to continue to maintain a large old house. Tenants were harder on it than our original family and it was beginning to get seriously out of date. We didn't want to put any more money into it after fixing it up after mom died. And, ultimately, we all needed the money.

Regarding Harlem, I don't mind living here and think many parts of it are beautiful; however, I will admit I did enjoy being in Hamilton Heights (where I was for 5 years) a lot more than I do being here in Central Harlem, which is more like a ghetto to me (though the people in my building are very friendly). Needless to say, I'm very much looking forward to moving when my lease expires this summer.

My friend by the way just moved from East Harlem to 61st and 2nd. He spent about $18,000 out of his savings to get it (deposit, broker fees, etc.) but can't afford the monthly rent on his own, so will have to continue living with 2 roommates. But it's worth it because (a) he was able to move to a nice neighborhood and (b) he absolutely loves it. He's a really hard worker, too, so I'm very happy for him.

[quote]He's a really hard worker, too, so I'm very happy for him.

If he wasn't a 'hard worker' you wouldn't be so happy for him, I guess.

[quote]My friend by the way just moved from East Harlem to 61st and 2nd

He'll have neighbors who look like this

How much is the rent R220?

R223, $2,500 I think.

R221, my friend works most weekdays and nights plus weekends; he rarely has any down time, which is all I meant by that statement. How you could take issue with it is beyond me, but whatever. Back to your cave now.

I grew up on the UES in a rent-stabilized apartment that was $1k/month in 1986 (it'd be $2,260 now if I were still there), lost it, moved to Philadelphia where I got a 1br near center city for $425 a month.

In 1988 I got a 1br rent-controlled sublet for $360 a month that I could have taken over as a stabilized apartment that would now cost around $1k a month, about the same as a decent 1br in Philly.

Where I grew up was "cheap" but still double what I pay now even with regulated rent. The cost of everything else is sky-high, and this is nothing new. People just don't notice how much they're being clipped until they can't afford something. Growing up I thought it was normal to eat out, take taxis, etc. Relative to the overall cost of living that was not much more, but now I can eat for a week on what I used to spend in a day.

Rent-regulation hurts the tax base by decreasing the income of the residents. A good way to end it would be to convert all rent-regulated apartments to co-ops owned half by the landlord and half by the tenant.

[quote]my friend works most weekdays and nights plus weekends; he rarely has any down time, which is all I meant by that statement

He works ALL THE TIME and still he needs two roommates to pay the rent? What a life!

Is rent stabilized the same as rent controlled?

I've been living in LA for about 5 weeks, and you just get used to the traffic. It takes me about 45 minutes to drive 12-14 miles to work each day, which, funnily enough, is a shorter commute than what I had in SF (50 minutes on the bus just to go 6 miles).

A lot of things about LA are overstated--yes, even the traffic.

R228, no it is not the same.

From ny.curbed-Rent control happens when the tenant has been living continuously in an apartment since July 1, 1971. There are no new rent controlled leases being written now (nor have there been for quite a bit), so the only way to finagle one of these apartments is to know a direct family member who can pass it down to you. Of course, a lot of people who are living in rent controlled apartments are illegally subletting them, perhaps masquerading as the real renter. Apparently, landlords have been cracking down on this practice by hiring private investigators.

Rent stabilization applies to buildings built before 1974 with six or more units that are not co-ops or condos.

This pretty much sums things up.

Long story short those that have RC or RS apartments are increasingly being pitted against and or *attacked* by those paying market rate and or are owners.

More and more rent controlled tenants are seen as *moochers* living in a place they otherwise could not afford absent "special" treatment.

Following article appeared recently in NYC local media.

Despite what many assume rent controlled apartments do not always have cheap rates. The formula used to determine increases is different than the system for rent stabilized units.

Here you go, an article from NYTimes about the exodus of New Yorkers to LA:

"In an era when it has become fashionable for New Yorkers to grumble that their own city is becoming a sterile playland for the global-money set (Dubai with blizzards, basically), Los Angeles is enjoying a renaissance with a burgeoning art, fashion and food scene that has become irresistible to the culturally attuned.

As a result, the old New York-Los Angeles rivalry is changing, at least on the East Coast side of the equation. No longer do in-the-know New Yorkers reflexively parrot sneers like the old Woody Allen line, that the only cultural advantage of Los Angeles is the right turn on red.

In some quarters, the scorn that New Yorkers once piled on Los Angeles is now sounding like envy."

"No less a New York mascot than Fran Lebowitz, whose jaded, cigarette-sucking visage may as well be inscribed on the city seal, also confessed to a change of heart about Los Angeles.

“L.A. is better than it used to be, New York is worse than it used to be,” Ms. Lebowitz said at a recent Vanity Fair party for the Tribeca Film Festival. The quality-of-life campaigns under Mayors Giuliani and Bloomberg swept away so much that was gritty, quirky or exceptional about the city, she said, and as a result, “New York has become vastly more suburban,” while “L.A. has become slightly less suburban.”

This is not a trivial point. Los Angeles is widely acknowledged to have become strikingly more cosmopolitan in recent years."

And this:

"Rising Rents Leave New York Artists Out in the Cold

Artists have wedged their canvases and supplies into their apartments. Others are working in hurricane-torn basements or in temporary, borrowed spaces. As their creative spaces have shrunk, so, too, has their art — if, that is, they still make art.

It’s been over six months since some four dozen artists lost their studios in Industry City, a sprawling factory complex on the Brooklyn waterfront. Many had spent decades hopping from studio to studio, from borough to borough. But according to interviews with over two dozen of the displaced, that practice of alighting in new, ungentrified neighborhoods has, at least for them, ground to something of a halt, hampered by a common refrain in New York: Rents are rising too fast.

Being studioless, some have put their art careers aside. Others have begun to ask: If they can’t afford gritty, unglamorous Industry City, then where?

“All I can see is going further out, then having to move again,” said Richard Castellana, a 73-year-old painter who has moved studios 10 times in 40 years. “I just can’t take it anymore.”"

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Counting my husband, twelve

You people are fucking insane to pay so much cash to live in a rat infested shit-hole. You moan and bitch about income disparity, but choose to pay insane taxes and thousands a month to live in a filthy shoe box with three other people. But you're sophisticated intellectuals and the flyover people are dumb hillbillies? SMFH

Well first of all Manhattan is only expensive south of Harlem. You all just don't want to live with the black folk. And then the people that live in Manhattans, south of Harlem are rich so the ratio of income earned to cost of renting/mortgage is a lot lower than in places like San Francisco, DC, Boston and LA. In fact in terms to medium income earned and cost to rent or cost of mortgage, LA is the costliest place in the USA to live.

I have some neighbors I'd like to send there

My friends - Asian male, black female couple - couldn’t get a foot in Queens. They later found out the real estate agents don’t want POC and keep the neighbourhood Irish.

They ended up in Stuy Town.