Why Dorothy Loudon Flopped while Charlotte Rae Succeeded as Den Mothers in sitcom TV.

Dorothy Loudon was a brilliant performer whose rocky career took many hard knocks.

She was an unknown NY cabaret singer and off-Broadway actress who came into the national spotlight in the early 1960s when she replaced the beloved young Carol Burnett on the weekly TV variety show hosted by Garry Moore. But Burnett was a tough (really impossible) act to follow and Loudon never really found her footing there.

In the meantime she continued to appear in Broadway musicals but every one of them flopped until she finally had a huge success with Annie (and a Tony Award) in 1978.

With that professional triumph came a personal tragedy, the death of her husband Norman Paris, a TV musical arranger, with whom she'd had a long affair before their marriage because he already had a wife.

That was followed a few years later with Noises Off, a comedic farce imported from London. Another hit and another Tony.

But she lost both of those roles to, none other than Carol Burnett, when they were turned into feature films.

She continued working on Broadway, mostly in flops though she had a personal triumph in one, Ballroom, for which she one a third Tony, even though the run was short-lived.

By the 1990s she suffered enormously from stage fright and had to leave two highly anticipated Broadway revivals, Once Upon a Mattress and Dinner at Eight, because of her fears of appearing before a live audience.

I know it's all the rage to complain about DL, but tidbits like this are one of the reasons I still like this site.

Charlotte Rae always came across as really cold and unmotherly.

I thought Loudon was one of the highlights of a salute to Sondheim many years ago, by doing an irreverent mashup of "Losing My Mind" with "You Could Drive a Person Crazy."

I thought it was very funny, but a friend of mine regarded it as sacrilege against St. Sondheim and dismissed her a "a boozy old drag queen."

[quote]I know it's all the rage to complain about DL, but tidbits like this are one of the reasons I still like this site.

Does DL stand for DataLounge or Dorothy Loudon? Either way I guess it works.

[quote] "a boozy old drag queen."

Which is why she couldn't act with any warmth on the sitcom, unlike Charlotte Rae

Heh. I meant DataLounge. But you're right; it works either way.

She had a great manic energy onstage, but she projected "difficult."

This is a bit from YouTube:

It was Dorothy fault in terms of the character on this show.

CBS executives wanted her to play "Bad Teacher" years before that movie came out.

Loudon said Been there, done that

So they had to change the character like a Mrs. Garrett type. But that didn't work either, because of her lack of warmth she was able to project.

She took my fucking part in BALLROOM!

As evidenced in the clip on R9 because of Loudon non-existent warmth with the other girls, the producers were forced to showcase Loudon strengths.

Her singing, so every episode revolved around her character having to break out into song.

That was a lousy rendition at R9.

It even looks somewhat resembles the set of the first season of "Facts."

Sorry for the mangled English at R14. Bad edting.

[quote] It even looks somewhat resembles the set of the first season of "Facts."

You think so? Watch the clip below

This looks more like it!

To see the "Jo" character from the Dorothy show go into 2:10 at R9 clip

Dorothy Loudon did "Ballroom" before "Noises Off", and this author wrongly claims she won Tony Awards for both. She not only didn't win a Tony for "Ballroom", she was not even nominated for "Noises Off"!

Why people decide to just make shit up that is so easily researched is bizarre.

Dorothy Loudon was also an alcoholic, and it was when she resumed drinking very late in life (like Stritchie!) that her inability to perform live came about.

Dorothy Loudon is kind of brilliant in that clip though, I'd never seen it. Russell Nype!

She had an interesting voice - not so much a belter as a growler.

"By the 1990s she suffered enormously from stage fright"

More like she suffered from drink. In 1997, she appeared in Encores "Sweet Adeline". That was a three show performance and she was excellent in it. So I don't think stage fright was the reason. I think producers didn't want to chance her in big productions with a drinking problem.

"salute to Sondheim many years ago, by doing an irreverent mashup of "Losing My Mind" with "You Could Drive a Person Crazy."

That was the worst thing she ever did. The two songs don't go together. She could have been phenomenal in either one, but together they didn't work. They just made her look like she had escaped from a mental institute.

That Encores production of "Sweet Adeline" was superb. I think it's one of the best things they've done, and perfect for the type of show best served by their style of production.

It was Jerome Kern's and Oscar Hammerstein's next show together after "Showboat", and the score is lovely.

[quote]That was the worst thing she ever did. The two songs don't go together. She could have been phenomenal in either one, but together they didn't work. They just made her look like she had escaped from a mental institute.

That's what she was going for, Sherlock. And it was funny. She was poking fun at the pomposity of Sondheim while still reveling in the fun in his songs.

I love that mashup. It works a treat.

"That Encores production of "Sweet Adeline" was superb."

I loved the song "My Husband's First Wife" The show is never done so the song isn't heard that much, but it can be hilarious for a comic woman singer.

It was more the booze than stage fright that caused her to exit the revival of DINNER AT EIGHT at Lincoln Center

"She was poking fun at the pomposity of Sondheim while still reveling in the fun in his songs."

There is no "fun" in Losing My Mind. And neither of those songs has "pomposity".

Loundon was great at interpreting Sondheim. I think she's done the best "Broadway Baby" I've ever seen. She was great at those Music Hall type numbers. (Listen to Bobo's on one of her albums)

And she did an excellent job in Sweeney Todd.

But I think she should have presented Losing My Mind as the quiet reflective song that it is. She really could have given a definitive interpretaiton and we wouldn't be stuck with Bernadette's vocal fry version.

I think she would have been excellent as the mother in Blood Brothers when it came to Broadway, but once again, they probably wouldn't consider her because of the drink problem.

[quote]She really could have given a definitive interpretaiton and we wouldn't be stuck with Bernadette's vocal fry version.

Fuck you and Your Hit Parade.

In her private life, Charlotte Rae was actually a warm, approachable, appropriate and fairly "normal" woman. I was in her company, in social settings, several times.

Still, r21 -- I could never quite believe her explanation on why she was so mean to Geri...

She drank because of her stage fright.

Ms. Collins, your version comes in second place tied with Cleo Laine's version. But nobody could do that longing for a man as well as Loudon. She nailed those chanteuse songs.

R17 she does seem very Jo-like. The way she delivers her line and the dykey way she holds herself. It's no surprise that she also has boy-sounding name, Frankie.

"She drank because of her stage fright."

No, she drank because she was lonely.

A friend of mine was on a national tour with her. My friend has always been openly gay, there's no question about him. One night she called his room and asked him if he wanted to join her in her room. There was no mistake about what she was looking for. He even asked her if she had called his room by mistake.

only data lounge would have these forums for pointless, random, and obscure nuggets like this.

[quote] One night she called his room and asked him if he wanted to join her in her room. There was no mistake about what she was looking for. He even asked her if she had called his room by mistake.

Why would she have called him by mishtake?

"Why would she have called him by mishtake?"

He didn't have a beautician's license, Rose.

[quote] He didn't have a beautician's license, Rose.

But did he have passion for dezshign?

Not everyone can make the transition from stage to screen.

r36, is your old friend Leslie Uggams or Chits Rivera?

Geri was a notorious lesbian who used her mental illness as an excuse to solicit unwanted advances on normal people.

R43 = Kirk Cameron

The girls on "Facts" seemed to have liked Rae but they said she wasn't a mother figure in real life, but very professional.

It would seem, however, that Mindy Cohn and Kim Fields adored Cloris Leachman. I love Leachman, too bad she was stuck at the tail end of a dying show with that awful spiky do.

Laugh all you want, R41. The girl's nominated for an Oscar.

It's probably best Loudon wasn't in Huston's "Annie" as he pretty much would have chopped up all her wonderful moves and footwork.

I knew we had been down this road before.

[quote]Laugh all you want, [R41]. The girl's nominated for an Oscar.

What girl?

"It's probably best Loudon wasn't in Huston's "Annie" as he pretty much would have chopped up all her wonderful moves and footwork."

He decided to entirely reshoot Easy Street after Carol Burnett got her new chin. No telling what he would have done with Loudon.

Danielle Brisebois is nominated for cowriting Best Song.

And he cut out half the song of "Easy Street" as well.

R50 just looked her up. I didn't know her by name, but I remember her on that Archie Bunker spin-off. She was also MOlly in the original Broadway cast of ANNIE.

I had no idea she co-wrote that song from BEGIN AGAIN, which I Love! Adam LEvine sings it and I also assumed he wrote it for the movie.

I really want it to win, but I think they'll give it to SELMA, because they're not gonna let it go home empty handed, especially after all the brouhaha over it being snubbed in all other categories save Best Picture, which it won't win.

[quote]And he cut out half the song of "Easy Street" as well.

The PBS making-of documentary showed them recording it in the studio—Miss Hannigan gets the first two verses, and Lily sings "You don't get there by playing from the rulebook"—so what happened to it? I'm not so sure all the cuts were at the hands of Stark and Huston. But it would be nice if that cut footage still exists.

[quote]It's probably best Loudon wasn't in Huston's "Annie" as he pretty much would have chopped up all her wonderful moves and footwork.

Huston put more care into staging the new songs. "We Got Annie" only uses 6 shots for the whole thing. Even though the cameraman sometimes gets too tight to see her feet, there's still a sense it's happening live and not being created in editing, the way the numbers in most post-[italic]Annie[/italic] film musicals seem to be. "Sign" is basically a copy of "Bill of Sale" from [italic]Pete's Dragon[/italic], but Huston's staging is more technically accomplished than Don Chaffey's in the latter.

And the way the film rewrote the story, Miss Hannigan's redemption when she tries to stop Rooster from killing her wouldn't have been believable coming from Loudon. And they needed to explain how she stayed out of jail. If that sitcom of hers is any indication of how she would have worked on screen, you can see why Huston—and for that matter, [italic]Noises Off...[/italic] director Peter Bogdanovich as well—went with Carol Burnett instead. She could tone it down for the camera when asked to do so, but Dorothy couldn't.

Oh please. Carol Burnett is anything but "toned down" in Annie and Noises Off.

If you want to see Dorothy Loudon in a wonderful screen performance, check out her little cameo in Sidney Lumet's Garbo Talks, playing a shut-in actress with...stage fright.

Loudon also has a small role in Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil

I have Danielle Brisbois's CDs "Arrival All Over You" (get it Ha ha ha) and "Portable Life," and I guarantee you if you heard it, you're jaw would drop.

She is an extremely talented writer and singer.

I saw Loudon on stage 4 times in the 90s. She had Stritch's role in Hal Prince's huge version of Show Boat and she had a large supporting role in Kander and Ebb's Over and Over which had Broadway ambitions.

I was a young fan of Dorothy from The Garry Moore Show and so was thrilled to meet her when I was a college student after seeing her in the Boston tryout of Lolita, My Love, in which she played the Shelley Winters role. I was ushered backstage by a friend of a friend who worked on the show.

But sadly, this was the night that the cast was told at the end of the performance that the show would fold in Boston and not come to Broadway.

So when I met Dorothy and told her how fabulous she was (and she was!) and what a long-time fan I was, she had tears in her eyes.

I'll never forget that meeting.

Agree with r53 - because of course deep down the audience loves Carol Burnett and wants her to turn good in the end. And as played in the movie she was more of a bonkers drunk then just "nasty-nasty" anyway. Loudon - not so much. She couldn't bring that light touch. And the banter with Finney? That would have worked NEVER.

[quote]She drank because of her stage fright.

She drank because she was an alcoholic!

[quote]If you want to see Dorothy Loudon in a wonderful screen performance, check out her little cameo in Sidney Lumet's Garbo Talks, playing a shut-in actress with...stage fright.

I guess you have never seen "Garbo Talks", because Loudon plays a desperate photographer's agent, and is a bit of a kook and a cat lady. She's not an actress, and she doesn't have stage fright! You should see it sometime, it's a very funny scene!

I find Loudon a much more interesting performer than Burnett. Burnett always seems to me to be a clown with "serious" pretensions. I've never been touched by her attempts at putting across a serious song. Even in that mashup of "...Crazy" and "Losing My Mind" Loudon manages to bring pathos as well as broad comedy moments.

"I find Loudon a much more interesting performer than Burnett."

I don't think she was more interesting, just different. And each had what the other lacked.

Burnett's strength lies in creating funny characters. Burnett got the exterior of the character (the walk, the voice, the facial expressions) but she never really delved down deeper into the interior. And that was perfect for sketch comedy.

Loudon had the inner depth, she knew how to put over any song she was handed and pull it up out of her inner depth, but she wasn't that great at the exterior of the character. It was always shades of Dorothy.

As the years go by and I think about it, I'm not sure why I ever thought Carol Burnett was funny at all. I find her schtick grating and really unfunny now.

Comedy is not timeless.

Just look at Will Rogers, Bob Hope, Milton Berle, Sid Caesar, to name a few.

And yet, there's Laurel and Hardy and even Abbott and Costello......

"As the years go by and I think about it, I'm not sure why I ever thought Carol Burnett was funny at all. I find her schtick grating and really unfunny now."

She created some good stuff. Scarlett O'Hara coming down the stairs wearing a set of curtains is still one of the top tv gags of all time. Carol's spoof of old movies still hold up fairly well.

But comedy has changed somewhat. The physical comedy that people like Carol and Lucille Ball did isn't used much anymore. People are more into sarcasm as humor now.

She should of been a hit in that show.

[quote]Comedy is not timeless.

Drama is even less so, and before you cite Shakespeare as a counter-example, ask yourself how many of his contemporaries even survive today, never mind actually get performed?

Carol really used the role of Miss Hannigan to really channel her anger over a lot of family issues, especially her daughter's substance abuse and her husband's alcoholism, not just her parents'. You can read about it in her book [italic]Carrie and Me[/italic], where you can also learn that Carrie got hooked on tobacco cigarettes from the rehab center she went to; it was their idea to smoke cigarettes as an alternative to doing drugs, and they insisted it was healthy.

As much as I loved Burnett when I was a kid, I can now see her limitations as an entertainer. Loudon was superior, especially on the stage.

Check her out at the Tonys in Easy Street from Annie and see why she and the actor who played Rooster stopped the show every night.

[quote]Loudon was superior, especially on the stage.

What worked for her on the stage never translated well to the screen, though.

Carol Burnett is like Sandra Bernhard: A funny comic who wasted everyone's time because she thought she could sing.

"It was more the booze than stage fright that caused her to exit the revival of DINNER AT EIGHT at Lincoln Center"

In fairness to the late lush, it was the cancer that killed her during the run that forced her to withdraw.

[quote]it was the cancer that killed her during the run that forced her to withdraw

Quiter.

[quote]Carol Burnett is like Sandra Bernhard: A funny comic who wasted everyone's time because she thought she could sing.

I like Carol's singing more than anything Sandra Bernhard does.

R75: I agree, but they were never meant to be singers. People only heard them sing because they became famous for being funny (even the Dulles song works as comedy; not singing).

But they both wanted desperately to be singers, like Madonna wanted desperately to be an actress.

So we had to endure their sub-par efforts.

Burnett was so poplar (and not an awful singer) that it didn't hurt her career, just made her less enjoyable to watch.

But I think all the singing sank Bernhard's career. I never wanted to see her shows again after sitting through six songs.

[quote] A funny comic who wasted everyone's time because she thought she could sing.

To be fair, Burnett knew her limitations and she almost always sang WITH someone, that way she could be mediocre.

Carol couldn't sing my ass!

R78 Bless your heart.

When I said that comedy was not timeless, I wasn't referring to comedic literature. I was referring to comedic actors, as per my examples.

GREAT comedy, like GREAT drama, can indeed be timeless when in the right hands.

Seriously, R80? Have you seen a production of anything by Aristophanes? It may have killed in 4th C. BC Athens but today? Ouch.

And most of the 'comic' scenes in Shakespeare play without a laugh today. It's hard for a modern audience to find puns on names for sex parts all that uproarious.

r81, I'm sorry that you've never seen any of Shakespeare's comedies played by brilliant actors in smart productions. I've seen wonderful productions of As You Like It, Much Ado, Midsummer, Comedy of Errors, Love's Labours Lost and many others.

I've also seen hilarious productions of Moliere.

And for that matter, The Government Inspector, Arsenic and Old Lace, Hay Fever, You Can't Take It with You and Light Up the Sky.

As for Aristophanes, you may be right.

Much Ado, R82? OMG, the Dogberry and Verges scenes are DREADFUL. It's the interplay between the non-comic leads that saves the play.

Love's Labours? I don't remember a single laugh. Holofernes is particularly unfunny.

The mechanicals in Midsummer, I grant you, can be very funny. But usually it's a riff of physical business on top of the text. But still, the scenes play well, I admit.

Charlotte Rae singing at 14:30 into video

Wow, her husband was only 52 when he died of a stroke.

Wasn't Rae's husband a gay?

r83, if you saw a Much Ado with non-comedic actors as Beatrice and Benedick and a LLL with non-comedic actors as the 4 pairs of lovers, well, then...it's no wonder you were disappointed.

And, of course, Midsummer is best when all of the roles are played by actors with true comic skills, not just the mechanicals.

Sounds like you've been subjected to a lot of crummy amateurish theater.

Bump for Charlotte

In the mid 90's I saw MUCH ADO in London with Janet Mcteer and Mark Rylance as Beatrice and Benedick and it was brilliant. Extremely funny. And very moving also. As well as a brilliant production of LOVES LABOURS LOST at the RSC in Stratford with Jeremy Northam and Owen Teale that was marvelously funny. And also managed to be moving.

And regarding Carol Burnett--her Eunice sketches were brilliant. A devastating character study. Hilarious and heartbreaking. So much rage and disappointment. Tragic. She was bang on in those pieces. As was the writing for the most part. MAMA'S FAMILY did a disservice to how full those original Eunice pieces were originally.

Carol is also brilliant in things like the Mildred Pierce parody--MILDRED FEARCE. She's deeply funny. The imitation is just enough mixed with her own crazed mania. I'm always amazed at the actors in those sketches back then. It was the early/mid 70's. They didn't have access to a vcr. The film wasn't on tape yet. They put it together in about a week. And it was taped live. Where did they even get to study it? Amazing.

R89 all good points. My personal favorite was Mrs. Wiggins.

And Harvey Korman cracked me up. Tim Conway not so much.