Paris Opera cast refuse to perform on stage unless Niqab wearing woman leaves audience

La traviata is about a whore, so this worked out quite well for them

I don't understand the poll question: "Is what" ??

is "what"yes? is "What" no?

Sorry gut cut off. Is what the cast did right?

Yikes. This is a really hard one.

If it's against the law then it's against the law.

Slaves running away from their masters was against the law too once.

Paranoia often leads to inane laws

R6 according to your logic, then someone smoking in the audience is allowed to stay as well.

And that the cast wouldn't be justified in refusing to perform for someone smoking in the audience.

No, they're xenophobic assholes.

Right? I don't know.

Hypocritical - you bet.

You want to improve the way some Muslim women are treated? Stop trading with the countries that mandate the behavior.

Bankrupt the Saudi oil industry - and you can be sure those princes will be parading their wives around in bikinis.

[quote]Bankrupt the Saudi oil industry - and you can be sure those princes will be parading their wives around in bikinis.

Riiiight, the reason they cover their women head to toe is because they are wealthy. They surely don't do it because they subscribe to an oppressive religion. Can you explain why women in Malaysia, Indonesia, Syria, etc have to use the same attire?

Why, did they think it was the Phantom?

Completely hypocritical to support such a ban which impinges on religious freedom.

Also, where were the ushers and ticket takers - didn't they see this woman enter the theater? Should they have asked her to remove it before seating her?

Tyranny of the majority is always a problem when majority rules.

R7 No, smoking is dangerous to everyone else; wearing that Muslim cover is not

Can we ban people who wear crosses?

And if everyone in the front row is taking pictures and recording the opera, the cast should continue to perform?

If it's against the rules or against the law, it should not be permitted.

Not sure why so many of you want to protect these gay hating religious scumbags.

Didn't this happen weeks ago? There was a thread on here about it and we had a nice long discussion.

This is one area in which the U.S. is just way better than France. There aren't many of them.

Freedom of religion is a good thing. If someone wants to wear a kippa or Niqab or a clerical collar or a crucifix or an ash on their foreheads on Ash Wednesdays or a kufi or if one is a Sikh wearing a turban or whatever it is they wear as a religious practice, it is a personal choice and an exercise of that religious freedom.

Secularism can coexist with religious freedom. Religious freedom is a freedom of expression just like wearing any kind of fashion.

One might argue that the niqab is sexist. Fine. One might also that high heels are sexist (frankly one can argue that a great many conventional modes of fashion are sexist - starting with dresses and pants which were for much of history only to be worn by one sex and not the other). One can well argue that black women straightening their hair is a racist devaluation of their hair.

But telling women that they can't wear a niqab or can't wear high heels or telling black women they must wear their hair in a certain way is the pinnacle of sexist.

R17 Yes. And yes.

R10 - I didn't claim anyone did anything because they are rich.

Quite the opposite actually.

Try reading my post again.

We pretty much have to obey the laws. Do I want another Holocaust with Muslims instead of Jews? No I don't.

But could Muslims ever give an inch? When with they realize that their religion is too goddamn fanatical? What's wrong with those fucking countries? Are all their people assholes? It certainly seems so. Why can't their women be respected and treated as equals?

R14, no, but we should. I hope one day we will be able to!

R15 R21, precisely! There is a law, whatever you think about it, you either follow it or you face consequences. You don' t like that France has a law against this? You take your stuff and you go live somewhere else. It is that simple! I don' t like that certain countries say that I should be completely covered, do you think I' d go there? No, I wouldn' t! The difference between France and those countries is that in France this woman got asked to leave (and maybe had to pay a fee, I don' t know), in those countries, a woman dressing in an "inappropriate" way would be lapidated!

Yes, R18, the USA are so tolerant and friendly with everyone that is not a white, rich, (allegedly) heterosexual, christian male, that whoever doesn' t belong to all of these category and bitches about being bullied/beaten/discriminated or worse is obviously lying! We are lucky the USA are on this planet to teach us how to not be racist/sexist/homophobic, and Europe should definitely learn a thing or two from them! As for your theory, no one is forcing women to wear high heels but themselves! Same goes for black women straightening their hair! Sure, there are idiots who say that they should wear certain clothes and look in a certain way, but unless they are physically forced to do so, they can calmly tell them to go fuck themselves and wear running shoes or sport an afro, or whatever the hell they want! While still a bad thing, the pressure women feel to look good is not the same as being forced to cover themselves because, as a property, they should think/do/say/wear what their fathers/brothers/husbands/owners tell them to. Whoever says it is the same is a straight up example of a smug first World class problem! And before you say that it is these women' s choice, I' ll tell you this: you may be right, it is their decision to be submitted, but it' s also a product of a lifetime of being brainwashed and considering themselves as a pliant object!

The "visitor" made a provocative statement. The performers made an unequivocal this is our country, respect our laws response.

I bet the daughters of the women who had to wear veils will be glad they don't have to submit to such a draconic confinement. Sorry these things just belong to a modern thinking society.

Good for the cast.

Tit for tat. Go to a Gulf State, kiss your boyfriend, wind up in jail or worse. When you visit another country their laws have to be observed, period.

[quote]Freedom of religion is a good thing. If someone wants to wear a kippa or Niqab or a clerical collar or a crucifix or an ash on their foreheads on Ash Wednesdays or a kufi or if one is a Sikh wearing a turban or whatever it is they wear as a religious practice, it is a personal choice and an exercise of that religious freedom.

R18...you really don't get it, do you? This woman had her face covered. It doesn't matter what your religion is: in France, It's against the law.

How would it go over if a guy showed up at the Met with a ski mask covering his face?

R18, religious freedom should not trump all other freedoms, otherwise all behaviors can be explained away or justified based on the so-called religious freedom argument.

[quote]This is one area in which the U.S. is just way better than France.

Ah yes, religious freedom.

R18

Religious freedom means that you can choose to accept certain rules within the religion you obey. Muslim women don't even have a choice when it comes to picking their own husbands.

Do they have freedom of any sort in the Gulf States? NO, they most assuredly do not.

So tough titty. This is just a tiny dose of the oppression they deal out to others on a daily, draconian basis.

Awesome. Fuck your repressive, backward, violent beliefs that shame women's bodies. If your face is so sin inducing, keep it home Brumhilda.

Where does it say in the Koran that women have to cover their faces?

I think it's all a case of interpretation

R14, I believe they have. France is a secular country and they outlawed wearing visible religious symbols.

[all posts by tedious, racist idiot removed.]

Funny, only one of you seems to get it. I'm sure they had no problem with religious freedom or were thinking about women's rights. The woman was sitting in the front row. The performers were nervous about a completely disguised person sitting within shooting distance of them, especially since outfits like hers have not been seen in France in nearly four years.

Looks like Paris will reverse their No Niqab law

Choke on a niqab, bump bitch.

So how exactly is a French ban on Niqbas a celebration of freedom?

Women’s rights > Wahhabism

Her again?

Leave aside the ban. I'd freak out if someone in all black head face to toe was in the front row watching me. It could be my stalker ex. My vengeful former wife I'm in a custody case with. It could be Meryl Streep, judgy. A clown in full make up. It.

Shudder.

As open-minded as I try to be, the full covering strikes some kind of primal fear in my gut. It’s unnerving. Especially in context of a civilized Western setting.

R45 Universal values of equality and liberty take precedence over tradition and open mindedness.

[quote]So how exactly is a French ban on Niqbas a celebration of freedom?

It's a celebration of the rights of women to be free from oppression by their culture. It's also a refusal by the host culture to submit to the Muslim challenge of liberal values and norms.

"Not sure why so many of you want to protect these gay hating religious scumbags"

Because the left has trouble criticizing the non white. If Swedes were forcing their women to wear garbage bags over their heads liberals would be foaming at the mouth.

Thank you R47, well said.

Not if the bags said IKEA, [R48].

This is for R48, whose comment I missed. You should do some reading on the French Revolution. It will inform you on the situation. I think it will let you understand the controversy going on in France.

OP, your thread is a FLOP.

[quote] It's a celebration of the rights of women to be free from oppression by their culture.

...except France, not these women, are determining what equals oppression.

Yes, Niqabs are sexist, based on patriarchal religious belief.

But so is the fact that women get paid less than men in much of the West; women are told what they wear is "decent" vs "indecent," women are a small minority in the board rooms of big companies; no woman has been President or VP in the US.

Let's just acknowledge that sexism permeates every culture

[quote] It's a celebration of the rights of women to be free from oppression by their culture.

Yet, this woman, who chose to wear her Niqab, was forced out of the theatre. Sounds like she's being oppressed by all sides

This thread is from 2014! We discussed this ad nauseum at the time.

Who keeps bumping these threads from 5-6 years ago? Some sort of troll who wants to stir up shit?

R56, R39 is a or the Bump Bitch Troll. And I'm the Bump Bitch Troll Explainer.

Bump Bitch (BB) has many many sockpuppets and fake identities, many of which get red-lined (canceled) every week due to her trolling. She needs to keep the flow of accounts moving. The DataLounge only permits starting new threads when one's account karma (a DL trade secret) reaches a certain level. But one increases one's karma by logging in to the new account(s), and by posting replies using said accounts to threads, so long as the posts don't get downvoted. That is why bump posts are usually bland and easy to miss.

So every couple days, you will find a bunch of old threads with late, low quality or non sequitur replies, usually years after the original thread had gone silent. This thread is one of them. What's especially annoying is when she bumps old threads that are full of links to pics and videos, and all the links are dead because they're six years old. Occasionally an old link will now be hosted by malware, and your computer or phone can suffer the consequences of clicking on it.

You deal with this manipulation by FFing and then blocking the Bump Bitch reply, in this case, R39. By blocking all bump bitches, all you miss out on are endless threads and posts about Meghan Markle, baby fucking and baby killing stories, and race-and-gay-baiting troll comments.

It's likely that most of the comments between R39 and yours are also BB comments, from other sockpuppets. I'll leave it up to you to decide if it's worth FFing and blocking those. It might be.

Why doesn't BB post comments to new threads, you ask? Because the DL has been locking threads to non-subscribers/unauthenticated accounts when there are too many nonsubscriber posts in them. This is why you hear a certain user, most certainly BB, complaining about threads getting locked, and having to start new threads on the same topics.

Fuck that bitch's primitive religion and practices.

Primitive religion?

Aren’t they all?

Mooslums would have us burned alive, decapitated, hanged etc. Fuck em.

Religious "tolerance" needs to be nipped in the bud. It is a wholly destructive societal force as well as a bunch of bullsit.

Let's make it ok to say, "Enough!"

We do acknowledge sexism R54. There's a big difference between wage equality and women who aren't even allowed to leave the house without a male companion let alone go to a job or until recently drive a car. Your post sounds like satire.

[quote]...except France, not these women, are determining what equals oppression.

[quote]Yet, this woman, who chose to wear her Niqab, was forced out of the theatre. Sounds like she's being oppressed by all sides

France has established social and cultural norms. Immigrants uncomfortable with those norms, and worse, attempting to subsume those norms in favour of their own cultural norms, may wish to seek a society where they feel more comfortable and less combative.

The source of the rumors of French chauvinism and snobbery come from their careful defense of all things French. They are interested in maintaining their culture, not being subsumed by other cultures.

Particularly religious ones. France's relationship with religion is conflicted, perhaps embittered. This has to do with the historical role the Catholic church had in the impoverishment of the French leading up to the Revolution. In modern France, religion functions exclusively as an outward sign of patrimony, embodied in architecture and art. It is not something by which people order their lives. Any religion that directly controls the people's behavior and pocketbooks is looked at with great suspicion and hostility by the French, and by French government.

Thanks for the explanation, R57.

She was sitting in the front row? Who the fuck sits in the front row? Worst seats in the house.

The Niqab is not as sexist as it is oppressive. It is attire demanded by a male dominated religious governance over how a woman is allowed to express herself. It is wrong on multiple echelons. It promotes a woman's second hand citizen status. It is NOT the same as wearing a necklace cross( as a casual symbol of religious expression) nor does it represent anything other than suppression.

I do not wish to be perceived to be supporting a "Bump Bitch", but nonetheless I'm here, and have read the thread. I must say I have no problem whatsoever with a headscarf, or other covering for the sake of modesty, but do not support full-face covering Niqab, nor do I support mandatory burqas.

That being said, it is awfully bad manners to turn someone out after having been seated (my same thought on flights with "bumped" passengers). If they had allowed her to slip through the doors unnoticed, they should have allowed her to remain. Much too late during second act to create a ruckus. Being British, I hate those who insist on causing a scene, regardless of French law. Someone smarter should have reflected to himself "Oopsie daisy, too late!" Better friggin' luck next time, I say.