The Supremes minus Diana Ross

It was like strawberries without whip cream End of subject

Why didn't Mary Wilson become the lead singer since she had the most tenure?

Even better: tell me some gossip about the Supremes when Miss Ross WAS a part of it.

Your choice.

"Up The Ladder To The Roof"

My new official theme song.

"Up the Ladder to the Roof" was playing on AM radio the week I got my driver's license.

That song always reminds me of our car at the time, a blue-green Plymouth Fury.

In 1970 the FM stations were just coming on strong and were mainly AOR or classical in my city.

The post Diana-Ross Supremes were fucked from the beginning.

Ross was fucking the owner of the label and trying to launch her solo career. There's no way in hell the Supremes would be allowed to outshine Miss Ross in any way.

R6 I also love Cindy Birdsong. and even though I also love Mary Wilson she really is not a lead singer if you've ever heard her sing solo R2

I never cared for Mary Wilson's voice, Motown didn't even use her vocals as back up when Diana was used as the main lead.

bump

The post Ross Supremes had a few top 20 hits (Up the Ladder Through the Roof, Stoned Love, Nathan Jones, etc.), but after Berry Gordy packed up Motown's Detroit headquarters for Los Angeles to concentrate on producing films for La Ross (Lady Sings the Blues, Mahogany, The Wiz), The Supremes were left without their biggest supporter to promote them. Several of Motown's biggest acts -- The Jackson 5, The Temptations, The Four Tops, Gladys Knight and the Pips, Martha Reeves -- left the label soon after.

"Stoned Love" was banned in places because of (supposedly) promoting drug use.

The Supremes continued to have hits until the disco era: "Bad Weather" (1973) and "I'm Gonna Let My Heart Do the Walking" (1976).

Poor Mary...

I like "Floy Joy"

The Supremes have never been the same since Sandra Day O'Connor retired.

I loved the voice of the Supremes' lead singer Jean Terrell (from 1970-73) after they kicked Diana Ross out of the Supremes. She and Levi Stubbs of the Four Tops sounded great together when the '70s Supremes and Four Tops collaborated on three Magnificent Seven albums. Jean was a much better singer than Miss Ross but of course Miss Ross got the far bigger promotional push.

Does somebody know the story behind Cindy Birdsong being kidnapped? Was it real or was it publicity?

R16, when was Diana kicked out of the group?

R18 I chose to leave.

The 1:00 intro of Stoned Love, my favourite pop music into ever !

Better version of Stoned Love

Diane Ross left The Supremes in 1969. Ironically, the last hit for Diane, Mary Ross and Cindy Birdsong (RIP Florence Ballard) was "Someday We'll Be Together."

Actually, their final performance singing this song was January 14, 1970:

Did Oprah snub the legendary Supreme Mary Wilson?

That's right, Mary. Her name is Diane:

Mary Wilson is not lead singing material. Quiet as it's kept, she tried joining a Detroit group that included Aretha's sisters Carolyn and Emma, but they kicked her out because they thought Mary couldn't sing. I bet Mary won't be writing about that in a book!

R24. And look at the career Mary Wilson had! Quite an accomplishment. However, Carolyn and Emma Franklin were never to be heard from again. So I wonder who couldn't sing?

R25 - No arguments here from me on that, because Mary Wilson has been successful in her own right. She may not have had the megastar career Diana had in her prime in the 70's, but I concede that she's done quite well for herself.

Carolyn and Emma often sang background for Aretha, and given Re-Re's insecurities about anyone threatening her status as the "Queen of Soul," she wasn't exactly the most helpful with their solo career ambitions. And Aretha certainly had the power/pull to keep that from happening.

However, since both of her sisters are dead, I guess we'll never get their side of the story.

Diana was stupid not to give in to Mary's demands on the Return to Love tour.

Anybody can feel the Supremes nowadays. My friend's sister toured as a Supreme for a few years. She's half black and half Jewish, which should sent the racist antisemite troll into orbit.

Despite any of the controversies, jealousies or differences, The Supremes were supreme--and still are.

Diane(a), Mary, Flo, Cindy created a sound never to be equaled. They were something else. Other girl groups have come and gone, but none even came close to the magic of The Supremes. Some may have sold more records, who knows. But The Supremes to this day remain the gold standard.

Bump

OP, how funny you should post this, just recently I saw the following quote on this one guy's Grindr profile: "Don't You Want To Go Up The Ladder To The Roof?"

He seemed nice but he is middle-aged and he lives with his Mother so I bypassed him, but he inadvertently got me interested in Jean Terrel again. Her voice was great; it was unfortunate she was not at another label.

^ I liked Jean Terrell a lot. Is it sacrilege to say she had a better voice than Miss Ross the Boss?

[quote]Anybody can feel the Supremes nowadays.

Yeah, but you'd probably be arrested for doing it.

No, Jean Terrell did have a better voice. Plenty of people would say that.

I disagree with the poster who said that Terrell sounded great with Levi Stubbs, though. They were a total mismatch.

[quote] Diane(a), Mary, Flo, Cindy created a sound never to be equaled.

Don't forget the Andantes. They were the studio Supremes after Florence Ballard left.

Yes and No about the Andantes. Sometimes they were used to sweeten Supremes' background vocals just as they were used with a lot of other Motown groups. They substituted for Mary and Cindy on a few singles near the end, the only major hit being "Love Child". It was another group used on "Someday".

But it's Cindy, Mary and Flo on most of the album tracks right to the very last "Cream of the Crop". Motown was pulling tracks from all different line-ups to fill those last few albums.

Mary Wilson sings background on tracks on every single album ever released by the Supremes,whether Diana, Jean or Scherrie was singing lead. No other former Supreme can claim that. Nor can the Andantes.

Mary didn't always do background on Diana Ross & the Supremes' recordings. Sometimes Diane would record with Motown's session vocalists on background. Valerie Simpson is on some Supremes tracks. As well, Merry Clayton is singing background on "Someday We'll Be Together." Truth is, Mary's voice just isn't all that. Jean, Scherrie and Susaye sang rings around her.

When I was little I wanted to be a Vandella.

They had the coolest backing dance moves.

Check 'em out!

[r37] What he posted was that Mary does background tracks on some tracks on every Supremes album. He never posted that she sang every background on every track. Everybody knows that there were other bg vocalists in there like the Andantes, the Waters, and Ashford and Simpson on the tracks they produced. The point was that every single Supremes album has a Mary Wilson background performance on some track. Every single Supremes album prior to the departure of Diana Ross has a track with Florence Ballard on it. Those are facts. An o, the Andantes are not on every single track out out by the Supremes. These facts come from the liner notes from their box sets.

Those songs--Stoned Love, Floy Joy, Automatically Sunshine--are still pretty good. Odd that they didn't record them while Diana was still in the group--they're a lot better than some DRATS recorded in their last years.

IMHO the recordings by DRATS (except for Love Child and Someday) were the low point artistically for the group. There are some good tracks on the "Love Child" album but "Cream of the Crop" and "Let the Sunshine in" were just Motown cleaning out the vaults. With Jean Terrell's arrival, the goal was to re-invent the group. Frank Wilson was a creative producer.

His work with the four Tops "Still Waters Run Deep" and Eddie Kendricks was also superior. Imagine if "Keep on Trucking" or "Boogie Down" had been Supremes records!

The ranks of talented hit-making writers and producer were thinning in the 1970's. The "Floy Joy" album allegedly was supposed to be the first solo album by Wanda Rogers of the Marvelettes. I'm glad that never happened.

Good Motown tea! Give me more about other groups: Temptations, Smokey and the Miracles, Martha Reeves.

Hattie Littles, r42

If you want a real Motown treat, go to Youtube and search for "Midnight Johnny" by Liz Lands. Great song that should have been re-made by the 70's Supremes as a disco anthem featuring Susaye Green.

Other Motown tea:

"Standing in the Shadows of Love" was originally supposed to be a Supremes record. Can't imagine if it would have worked because the Four Tops version is a classic.

Come Round Here" by the Miracles was cut around the same time and was supposed to be a Four Tops record but was re-assigned to the Miracles.

Very interesting stuff, Ikeda!

Ikeda, what do you know about the Dynamic Superiors?

Threads like these are why I come to this site.

Any scoop on the Velvelettes or Kim Weston?

I can't help but feel sorry for Mary Wells. She took the advice of her asshole husband and left Motown and never became the star she hoped to (and deserved to be).

"Every single Supremes album prior to the departure of Diana Ross has a track with Florence Ballard on it."

True, and I wonder if she, or her estate, got royalties from those songs. I LOVE the CREAM OF THE CROP album, which has songs literally recorded years before and discarded.

Hopefully Hip-O-Select will resume their output of limited edition re-releases of Supremes albums, especially Supremes A Go Go and that obscure Supremes Sing Sam Cooke album.

They need to reissue the FUNNY GIRL album.

Florence Ballard signed away all of her future royalties when she left Motown. Rumor has it that the royalties do not go unpaid. Instead they may be paid to a company owned by Mr. Gordy himself. In other words, every time a Supremes record is sold 1/3 of the royalties go to him.

[R50] The Funny Girl album can be downloaded on Itunes. The only one left unreleased is the Disney album

Since this thread started I've been listening to a lot of the post-Ross Supremes, and they're wonderful. Not the protesty/ain't-we-hip shit, but the songs in the Supremes' usual mood. Lovely.

I still think "Up the Ladder to the Roof" is the best ever.

Ross was always too much about Ross, and for all her (limited) skill sounded like she was heading for Vegas and fucking the boss.

[quote]Ross was always too much about Ross, and for all her (limited) skill sounded like she was heading for Vegas and fucking the boss.

I always love how people try to slam Ross, and her success. You don't last as many years as Ross has lasted without talent, or by just fucking the boss.

Ross is working, and doing what she loves. She is selling out venues without having any new music since God knows when. While she is financially well off, just look at what her contemporaries have had to resort to. Gladys Knight--reality show; Patti LaBelle--thinking about a reality show; Mary Wilson--singing on cruise ships; on and on...

I love the post-Ross Supremes. Scherrie Payne and Susaye Greene have fabulous voices. I like Jean Terrell, too. It's just that they didn't have great material after the first 2 or 3 post-Ross albums.

Ross mostly does the casino circuit r54. She's paid very well for it but isn't performing at MSG.

Watching them dance in those outfits gave me a seizure

Actually R56, in June she played and I believe sold out - the Theater at MSG - which is close in seat size to RCMH.

I do get agree with you and I get your point though.

Up the Ladder to the Roof charted higher than Reach Out and Touch (Somebody's Hand) in the U.S. I bet Miss Ross had a fit.

I love lots of the 70s Supremes tracks, even the outsourced material like "I Guess I'll Miss the Man". I even like their Vegas-rific version of Joni Mitchell's All I Want - though they strangely cut the lyric "I want to Shampoo you", as if they or their producer was above such frivolity.

They deserved to have some big Disco hits (Let My Heart do the Walking, Driving Wheel etc.). I always think High Energy sounds like a great Theme Tune to a Black Charlie's Angels.

Erma not Emma Franklin.

"High Energy" is one of my favorites. Initially Mary recorded co-lead vocals but they erased her and put Susaye on it. Mary was mad until she heard Susaye's track and realized she could never produce such a dynamic vocal.

That's a new one. I know that Cindy Birdsong maintains that the original lead was by her. I thought there might also have been by Scherrie but this new Mary co-lead is a new twist.

Susaye also recorded a lead for "I'm Gonna Let My Heart ". she sounds like Minnie Mouse.

One of my favorite post Diana Ross & The Supremes songs.

[quote]Ross mostly does the casino circuit [R54]. She's paid very well for it but isn't performing at MSG.

Mmph! A cunt will always be one I suppose...

@R58, You're correct, and I distinctly remember her performing at the Hollywood Bowl last year which she sold out. My point was that Ross is still working successfully. It has been reported that she pulls in up to $250K/week. She works like she has rent to pay, AND gets the bookings! Unless she could fill a venue, she wouldn't get the job. All this from a 70 year old gal!

[quote] The Supremes minus Diana Ross

A massive improvement without Diane "Barry It's So Big" Gordy.

r63: besides the steps, doesn't Mary look oddly out of place here?

@R66, I believe she was pregnant at the time.

Can Diane do anything other than croak like a frog these days?

Oooh, Scherrie and Susaye's album Partners, from 1979, is on iTunes.

I love the Almighty 12" remix of "Up the Ladder to the Roof."

You know, as much as I think she was mistreated, Mary Wilson really isn't much of a singer.

Mary sounds okay on "Floy Joy"

[quote] You know, as much as I think she was mistreated, Mary Wilson really isn't much of a singer.

Testify!

[quote]Can Diane do anything other than croak like a frog these days?

Make loads of money!

[71] If you listen to the early Supremes pre 1964 all of them were untrained and none of the, were great singers. Mary had a strong voice back then. Too bad she was never groomed and trained. She was better than Wanda Rogers from the Marvelettes or some of the other female solo artist who passed through Motown.

[quote] That's a new one. I know that Cindy Birdsong maintains that the original lead was by her. I thought there might also have been by Scherrie but this new Mary co-lead is a new twist.

I may have the story all wrong but my version makes Mary sound shady so I'm sticking to it.

[76] And thus an unfounded myth is born! What do you think of the fact that it was Mary Wilson's royalties that were supporting the Supremes in the 70's? Every single one of those women that she invited into the group after the departure of Diana Ross owes her career to Mary Wilson. Otherwise they would have remained in the obscurity from whence they came and to which they returned. Albeit Susaye Green is a talented songwriter but like the others has been unable to carve out a sustainable singing career.

Hmm... I don't know about that R77. For decades Mary Wilson walked around with a chip on her shoulder because she felt that she deserved the same type of success as Diana Ross. The stories are that she was horrible to the subsequent girls, and treated them as lowly employees.

Mary Wilson (and definitely her husband) killed The Supremes. It was all because of jealousy.

It seems that only recently that Mary has come to terms with herself, her talent, and her relationship with Ross. The other girls really do not speak well of Mary.

Sherrie! Lynda! Jean!!!

If you listen to the early Supremes pre 1964 all of them were untrained and none of the, were great singers."

Agree, but didn't Ballard actually have the best vocal raw material of the three women?

Another

Sherrie! Lynda! Jean!!!

My name is SCHERRIE, bitch!

Apparently Cindy isn't doing too well. :(

[r78] The times killed the Supremes. How many other groups started in 1964 and sustained past 1977?

The format was cute in 1064. It wore thin during the DRATS era when they looked like drag queens and made no attempt at a group sound. They were reborn with Jean Terrell and the productions of Frank Wilson.

Once Cindy Birdsong left the magic was gone. Lynda Laurence will always look like a hairdresser from Compton. No charisma there.

Scherrie is beautiful and a great singer. She never worked with a great producer who could manage her talent and push her back from her self indulgent tendencies "I want to talk about it") or the warbling like a cantor. "You're What's Missing in My Life' is a great seamless duet with MW. That was a highlight of the era. Susaye was a soloist and never got with the group dynamic. Onstage live she was a nightmare.

Visually that last line-up didn't work. Motown knew it. That was the lineup that got booed off the stage of MSG. They needed to morph into the Pointer sisters or LaBelle and couldn't.

When Suzanne DePasse called Mary, Cindy and Scherrie back together for one last try in 1983-84 and could not work it out, that was the end of the Supremes. Note that even Suzanne De Passe did not invite Lynda Laurence, Jean Terrell or Susaye Green back. She knew better.

I won't disagree with you R84, and you are probably right that a lot of what you wrote caused the demise of The Supremes. But, make no mistake... Mary Wilson added fuel to the fire. The accounts from that time was that she was a mess! A lot of it was because she felt as if she had been left out to gain rightful stardom.

That's too bad about Cindy

I can't imagine trying to hold on to my first job and begrudging my friends from high school for their success. That's what all this Supremes drama is about. We all grow and move on. It is sad when you cannot grow and your ambition exceeds your grasp.

Yes MW was abused by her husband, exploited by Motown and denied the full benefits of her years as a Supreme. She in turn, exploited and abused her fellow Supremes.

She is also legendary for exploiting friends and fans alike. In NYC she was infamous for expecting all her friends to pick up a check for her, pay for cab rides and give her free tickets to industry events. First class moocher. Supposedly she left NYC with a host of unpaid bills.

[quote]That's what all this Supremes drama is about.

A drama that's nearly 50 years old! These women can now collect social security checks, and you still have people arguing that Ross is only where she is because she fucked Berry. She's been in the business for fifty years! That had to be one helluva fuck!

As I wrote earlier, Wilson seems to, just now be, coming at some sort of peace with herself, and her career. She gets gigs that keeps a few coins in her purse, and if R87 is correct, we learn how she keeps even more of those coins!

The link is for her house that's for sale.

[R88] That house is full of everything but taste. Imagine living a house surrounded with pictures of you!

I saw Mary in concert one year at Sunset Junction in L.A. I was shocked by how dreadful it was. She has little stage presence and her voice was just astonishingly bad for someone headlining a music festival (or street fair depending on your pov). She is completely deluded if she believes that she should have been a star beyond her time with the Supremes.

I eat the corn out of Diana's shit and dug up flo Ballard and skull fucked her.

The truth is Berry kept the group going longer than he should have because he knew Mary didn't have a lot of options for making a living as a solo artist. Once Pedro entered the picture as Mary's husband/manager, the group was finished for good.

Scherrie is a very talented singer and performer, but Motown wasn't giving her the right material to work with and the push wasn't there anymore. They did have success with some disco hits and High Energy did pretty well, but they weren't making the money necessary to sustain their reputation.

Times changed and every act has a lifespan.

R91, where the hell did that come from?

[R92] I don't subscribe to this benevolent Berry angle. He an Motown Records into the ground as he pursued his film-making dreams.

After the Commodores and the Jackson 5 the hits were few. The hit songwriters and producers had all been raided and wooed to their own production companies. The acts that sustained were those who could write for themselves like Marvin Gaye, Stevie Wonder and Lionel Richie. It was a struggle to come up with decent material for even Diana Ross.

And still Motown screwed each and every one of them. I think it was de Passe who worked her ass off to sustain the Supremes. She searched for material and producers. Once tastes changed and the public moved on, it was over. The arrival of Mr. Ferrar was the last straw.

There's no question that if Mary had been able to secure the rights to the name and leave Motown in 1973 with Jean and Lynda, they probably would have been able to continue more successfully. Motown was rapidly going downhill and no longer had the resources to sustain all of their acts like they did in the 60s.

Motown has been just plain mean about the use of the Supremes name. The Miracles, Four Tops and Temptations were allowed to leave with their names attached to at least one group member. Why not the Supremes?

The Temptations have one surviving original member, as do the Tempts and the Miracles. None of those survivors were ever a lead singer on a hit single. And then you have Mary Wilson who sang co-lead on "Floy Joy", "Touch", "Automatically Sunshine" and "He's My Man".

So why not just give her the name or license it to her? Let her find investors who want to finance a class Supremes act. Leaving it dormant serves no purpose.

@R96, whoever now owns Motown is still making a lot of money off of the name, and music.

[R97] Yes they are making money from the recorded music but they would make more if a classy authorized group was out there performing as The Supremes. It would have to be a group with some authenticity, i.e. no Sounds of the Supremes or other tribute group. What would be ideal is a regrouping that included Mary Wilson, Jean Terrell and Scherrie Payne. That would sell tickets. Lynda Laurence may be a decent singer but she has no marquee value.

Performances would sell records and keep the name alive. Motown could license it and get a % of every performance.

R96, The Tempts and The Four Tops never signed a contract giving Motown the rights to their names. Both The Supremes and The Miracles did.

Smokey persuaded Berry to relent and allow The Tempts and The Miracles to leave the label with the rights. The Four Tops had no problem as they already had the rights.

Mary was never the lead singer of the group and Diana Ross had just as much, if not more, right to the name "Supremes" and she had relinquished it, as did Flo, when they left to go solo. Berry took the position that Janie Bradford, who worked as a switchboard operator at the time, came up with the name and Flo picked it from Janie's list of suggestions on the day their contracts were being drawn up.

There's nothing stopping anyone, including Mary Wilson, from approaching Motown/Universal and asking them to license the rights to use the name. Diana Ross had to license the name herself when she went out on the road with Scherrie and Lynda in 2000.

Mary was given 50% of the rights in 1974 when she re-signed with Motown. She also had full control of the group until 1977 and was taking 15% extra off the top as their manager, plus she was getting 50% of their income. Not to mention Mary was making all the royalties from their 60s hits, which was not shared with the 70s members of the group.

In 1978, Mary signed a new contract as a solo artist after suing Motown over the rights. As part of her deal, it was agreed Motown would never contest her using the name "Supremes" again as part of her solo act. Indeed, she performed on the road for years as "Mary Wilson of The Supremes", or "The Supremes' Mary Wilson".

After Motown was sold in 1988, Mary finally realized she had spent millions fighting a losing battle and only had so many years left to make up that money. She called Berry in 1990 and they agreed to settle the matter once and for all. Berry voluntarily paid her $100,000 for her 50% of the name and she relinquished her interest to Motown/MCA.

Mary still uses the name today, even though she doesn't have the rights to do so, because Universal Music doesn't want to have a public fight over an original Supreme using the name. But she doesn't pay them a dime for it, even though they could sue her tomorrow and demand a licensing agreement.

[R100] Why would she share any of her 60's royalties with the 70's Supremes?

The better question is how did they share recording expenses from the 70's expenses? Were they recouped 1/3 from each Supreme receiving royalties from that recording? Surely the albums recorded with Lynda, Scherrie, and Susaye never recouped their recording, marketing and distribution costs?

How were other group expenses paid? The cost of wardrobe, arrangements, choreography, etc.? I bet all of that was coming out of Mary's pocket.

R101, any recording expenses always come out of the artist's account before royalties are paid. Same for marketing and promotion, although sometimes the record label assumes some of that cost as part of building an artist up. I highly doubt Motown spent much, if anything, on promotion for The Supremes after 1973 because the money just wasn't there, given their priorities at the time.

Mary did contribute considerable funds from her personal resources to the group to keep them going, but she recouped that over time by having a larger share of their performing income. Nobody was making much money and that includes Mary.

I would love to hear some new Jean Terrell recordings.

When Diana Ross left the Supremes it was a bold move for her and Motown. The Supremes were a sinking ship after Flo and HDH left. They got bigger in TV with specials and appearances but the quality oif the music took a dive. They were no longer a group, just a star with two backgound singers. I'm not a fan of DRATS.

Thanks for sharing, R70 . Great club remix.

I love this thread.

Lately, I've gotten very interested in the Scherrie Payne-era Supremes. They had some really good songs. Here's "He's My Man" (which went to #1 on the disco chart).

They were at their best from 1961-1967. They lost some of the magic when Flo left but regained a whole new appeal with Jean Terrell. When Cindy left the first time, the new trio just was not as charismatic as it had been. When she returned, the line-up of Mary, Scherrie and Cindy had a great sound and was the best-looking line-up ever. The final line-up had three strong voices but the look did not work and the group did not work in performance. It was past time to let it go.

Jean, Mary and Cindy were great together and Jean is a wonderful singer. They definitely did very well the first couple of years with Frank Wilson producing them, but the rise of R&B, the Philly Sound and funk, meant they needed to change their image and material pronto. But they didn't and Mary became part of the problem, instead of the solution.

Jean felt strongly they needed to leave the past behind and try something more updated and R&B, instead of the sequins and Vegas shows. But Mary wanted to stay locked in the past and that's why Jean and Lynda left in 1973.

Berry knew their time was up and told Mary the group was finished, but Mary refused to let it die because she needed the name and the act to survive financially. Berry let her continue, but didn't put any money behind them.

That's the truth of why the group died in the end. Mary drove it into the ground.

What has really driven the Supremes name into the ground is 1) all the crappy recordings from the former Supremes re-recording classic Supremes hits and calling them "Supremes" recordings, 2) all of the bogus groups including Sounds of the Supremes and all the tribute groups, and 3) Mary Wilosn with all her griping and bitterness

There was no classy exit.

On the other hand look at all the other Motown groups. The only original Miracle left in the group is Claudette Robinson. Duke Fakir is the only original of the Four Tops. Otis Williams is the only original Temptation. Yet, they have their group's names and tour as that group.

Mary Wilson sang lead a lot more than any of these people, even on a couple of singles.

A well funded classy Supremes act should have a market.

Mary Wilson does OK and as mentioned uses "The Supremes" prominently in her advertising. There's not point in trying to get another Supremes going.

I have everything the Supremes released but I'm still a little surprised at how some people write about the DFM line up as if they weren't Diana and two back up singers or as if they had this great chemistry. I think it must be based on their live/TV appearances.

I mean, there are some iconic non-Diana moments (e.g. Mary's husky "Ooh baby babys" on Where Did Our Love Go) but it wasn't like they had this great group sound like, say, the Sweet Inspirations.

As for the final line-up, I recently saw a YT clip from one of those daytime talk shows. The Supremes did a medley and I think their then-new single. It was a mess, so it's not surprising that Mary put an end to it not long after.

I don't know what they were going for with that last line-up. Visually, Mary Wilson went from being the shortest one in the original group to the tallest one in the final edition. It didn't work.

Vocally, they did some nice work in the studio. I never saw them live but I hear it was pretty awful. Mary sang too many leads, Scherrie was too self-indulgent with her warbling and runs, Susaye was out of control with her vocal histrionics, out to impress with her range. No group dynamic.

They should have been like the Pointer Sisters. The JML line-up should followed the lead of the Emotions.

Then again Mary should have left and become another disco queen.

[quote]Then again Mary should have left and become another disco queen.

She tried that, honey. It didn't work.

This track was never released...thankfully.

That track was release on an album filled with dreadful material with two highlights "Warm Summer Night" and "Pick Up the Pieces"

Here's the other "hit", doll--live...

Mother, said to always say something nice.

...she looked beautiful in the images on the album.

[116] That's really awful and it's a twofer: Kaaren Ragland is singing back-op.

@R117, poor Kaaren, but when you need a paycheck...

The Original Supremes. Check out at 1:22:00

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgTsBsSngrc

She can milk it, though.

@R119, You can really hear Flo's voice in that clip! I don't think she ever would have made a good lead, (I suppose it depends on the material), but you can definitely hear that her voice was a crucial part of the Supremes' sound.

...and, Lord! Please have mercy on your child Mary...

After all these years, the #1 thing I associate with Mary Wilson is whiny victim with limited talent that took her nowhere. If she were a more sympathetic character, I could look beyond the professional martyr schtick of hers and try to enjoy what she can offer.

Excuse me, R119, but those are NOT the original Supremes.

Why wasn't this a Supremes hit?

Sorry miss Barbara Martin, but this was the second line-up of the Supremes....uh....the one that hit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgTsBsSngrc

[R124} "Mother Dear"...I love that song!

You mean this one?

Was "The Supremes Sing Rodgers & Hart" their best album? I think so.

I'd go with "We Remember Sam Cooke" or "A Go Go'

"I'm Living In Shame" may be the single worst Supremes song.

It's meant to be dramatic and meaningful but winds up being a unintentionally funny campiest. Momma sounds like an embarassingly slovenly Aunt Jemima. I can't blame Diana for leaving her and having a fabulous life without her. She does't miss shit!

I'm Living in Shame is campy but catchy. I think their worst song is No Matter What Sign You Are

Yeah, that's pretty lousy. "I've Livin' In Shame" at least is campy.

Worst death n music history: Mama passed away while making home made jam. Was it a big pot and she drowned?

If you rank the most successful girl groups in music history, three groupings of the Supremes would be in the top 20.

1) The classic DFM line-up 2) DMC 3) JMC

The only true contenders are the Shirelles, TLC, the Pointer Sisters, Destiny's Child, Martha and the Vandellas and a few others

r134, if you are going way back you could include The Andrews Sisters or the McGuire Sisters

Filling out the rest of the top twenty:

Sisters Sledge, the Marvelettes, the Ronettes, the Cookies, the Crystals (Top 10), Mary Jane Girls, Shangrillas, the Chantels

I'd put the Boswell sisters in the top ten.

Reflections,I'm Living in Shame,Love Child...those hits and more used the Andantes as backup singers.

The Andantes along with the Funk Brothers were _the_ Motown Sound and the Andantes "sweetened" the production of many other groups as well.

Mary and Flo were fine on the early pieces like Baby Love but the professionals had to take over in the studio especially when one or another and sometimes both Supremes were no shows or unable to get in gear as the Ashford arrangements became more demanding.

Time was money and the Andantes were on call 24/7 for years and often had to salvage previously recorded tracks on short notice.

The original three Supremes (minus DR) were simply not capable of laying down the tracks they eventually mimed to in performances on TV and in concert.

[R138] Mary Wilson and Florence sang back-up on all of the HDH productions including Reflections. The Holland Brothers and Lamont Dozier have said so repeatedly in interviews.

With the exception of "Love Child" and "Someday", there are no Supremes hit songs where the Andantes did any more than "sweeten" what was already there with MW and FB.

The myth of the Andantes is greatly exaggerated.

And what "Ashford" arrangements are you referring to? Ashford ansd Simpsononly did one Supremes single "Some Things You Never Get Used to" and that wasn't a hit.

You should all know that Berry Gordy wanted ME to join the Supremes as the lead singer in 1962 but I turned him down. Since I can actually sing and I'm the most beautiful girl I know, you were all thisclose to never ever knowing nothing about Diane Ross.

Actually, Berry turned you down and would not sign you Ms. Payne. Just like he turned down Aretha Franklin because he did not know what he could do with her.

But after Mary Wells left the company Mr. Gordy turned all of his attentions to grooming and shaping Miss Diana Ross. It was a very difficult time for solo female singers, especially black ones.

Ms. Ross was unpolished, She sang through her nose and she performed like a bug-eyed bobble head doll. But she took constructive criticisms well and allowed herself to grow.

She would not have been accepted as a solo artist. Being in a group was her nest. The trio smiled, they looked sexy. They ooed and ahhed. They were lovable and adorable and minimized her strangeness. They formed the perfect showcase to lift her up and shine until she was ready to leave the nest and leave them behind. And that she did.

I'll bet Mary Wells regretted leaving Motown every day of her life.

And I bet the Supremes thanked God she did. They went from nowhere to the top as soon as Mary Wells got out of the way.

LIAR!!!!!!!

Freda who? Any relation to George Payne? Major Payne? Maybe Window Payne?

I don't think anyone should ever skip over the special niche and power of the Ronettes. (R136 didn't.)

They may have had only a few big hits, but they were huge hits. And how many girl groups can claim Cher as a back-up singer ("Be My Baby")?

[quote]I'll bet Mary Wells regretted leaving Motown every day of her life.

Oh no, honey! What she absolutely regrets is messing up that Supremes Reunion Tour where she could have walked away with a clean $5 million dollars! She didn't have to pay for sets, gowns, music arrangements, room or board! All she had to do was show up, and warble "oo oo oo oo, baby love"

People, Mary Wells and Mary Wilson are NOT the same person.

That's true, R148. I'm sure they meant Mary Wilson, and that is who I was referring to too.

[r149] No, they were speaking of Mary Wells and you misunderstood.

BTW nothing could have saved that tour. It was ill-conceived from the very beginning. So it crashed and burned and set a whole lot in motion that has damaged the careers of everyone involved.

I really don't know about that R150. Of the shows that they did do, they got really good reviews! From my understanding, it was the high ticket prices, and the public not biting (because it wasn't authentic) is what did it in. Diana, (excuse me), Miss Ross was furious over it!

[R151] If you watch that clip you see that lack of communication was the issue with that tour. Diana Ross states very clearly that it was her promotional tour and a Supremes segment was added to enhance it. What was proposed to Mary Wilson was a Supremes Reunion Tour.

They are two very different concepts. That's what I meant by "ill-conceived". Ross and Wilson were not to blame. It was the bungling of the promoters.

Why wasn't "Life Beats" ever released as a single? It's a great record.

I Love "No Matter What Sign You Are", mostly for Diana's "Ow!"s and the girls' Zodiac recitation.

My most hated single is one of their numbers 1s - The Happening. It's the Supremes at their most "supper club". I also dislike "In and Out of Love, though it has a nice tune, for being too MOR in its production/sound.

Also, they did NOT need to cover "The Weight", much less release it as a single.

Miss Ross's music career after the Supremes was pretty mecurial. There were a handful of great singles, a couple of good albums and a lot of crap.

"One Love in My Lifetime"

"Surrender"

"Sorry Doesn't Make it Right"

"sleepin"

"Livin Lovin Givin"

What other big hit besides "Be My Baby" did the Ronettes have? "Baby I Love You" is one of my favorites, but I don't think it made it into the top 15.

[R156]

"Walking in the Rain" "You came, You Saw , You Conquered" "I Can Hear Music" "You Baby"

Those weren't big hits. The Beach Boys had the big hit with "I Can Hear Music".

R157...with the exception of "Walking In The Rain," those singles were not hits. #100 on Billboard is not a hit.

@R155; Are you kidding? She's ranked 5th given her number of hits.

[quote] If you watch that clip you see that lack of communication was the issue with that tour. Diana Ross states very clearly that it was her promotional tour and a Supremes segment was added to enhance it. What was proposed to Mary Wilson was a Supremes Reunion Tour.

Ross could have, and should have, done a solo promotional tour in mid-sized arenas with reasonable ticket prices. The venues and ticket prices of RTL undermine her suggestion that it was a solo tour with a Supremes segment. She has never played MSG or Staples-sized arenas on her own. It was concieved and marketed as a Supreme reunion show. Her ego allowed her to believe that she was the only Supreme that mattered.

[R161] And that is exactly why the tour failed. The miscommunication was the manipulation by the promoters. They really thought they could take a modest DR tour, bump it up by adding the Supremes and book larger venues. They underestimated the savvy and power of the fan base which was not to be so easily duped.

The finances were structured as though it was a Ross tour with all major decision being made by her. As she says, the other two "just had to show up". How disrespectful is that? Only Ross was to get profit particpation. She says that in the interviews.

Either the intent was to have a Supremes Reunion or a Dian Ross show with the other two "showing up". The promoters tried to manipulate and they got what they deserved.

It's sad that Scherrie Payne and Lynda Laurence were so desperate for recognition that they bought into it. Of all those "sold -out" shows, how many tickets were sold because either Laurence or Payne was there? Probably 100 on the whole tour.

[R160] Go count up the hit singles on tha Wikipedia. Half of them did not make the Top 20. Either the hits were huge or they were duds.

Here's a recent interview with Scherrie and Susaye. Is there Partners LP any good?

I have the Partners album and think it's good but not great. It wasn't very commercial for its time. I prefer the songs written by Susaye but the voice of Scherrie. Too many ballards on it.

So at least it's better than "Totally Not" then.

Yeah, I don't know what they were trying to do. Susaye's vocal gymnastics wears, as dos Scherrie's warbling runs. There isn't a great song on the album but some of Susaye's are at least experimental.

"Another Life From Now", sung by Scherrie, is very pretty and in-line with the pop/soul balladry of the time. It could have been a radio single.

I love "Always" by Susaye. Perfect way to end an album.

If you take the very best of Mary Wilson's "Red Hot album", i.e. "Pick Up the Pieces" and "Warm Summer Night" and add it to this album and drop the dreary stuff like "Storybook Romance" and "I Found Another Love" you have a pretty good Supremes album.

But, that's not my point R163. My point is that Ross has a HUGE catalogue of work. Yes, I'm a fan, but I can look at her career objectively. I t annoys me at times that there are those who simply refuse to acknowledge the accomplishments that she has attained. Whether you like her, or not, she has had (and has) a successful musical career that very few can claim.

Check out the latest press;

[quote]She has never played MSG or Staples-sized arenas on her own.

Yes, Ross has. I remember she had a very successful sell-out run of Giants Stadium. There are many others. I recall that in her hey-day, Ross at Radio City Music Hall in October was considered a major social event that ranked up there with the opening of the opera/dance seasons.

The Ronettes were no Shangr-Las.

[R170] The strength of Ross' catalogue is her material with the Supremes. It doesn't get better than that. Her solo career, as i said in the original post, has been mercurial, spotty, inconsistent. She has had 4 No. 1 records in the US, "Ain't No Mountain High Enough", "I'm Coming Out", "Love Hangover" and Touch Me in the Morning" plus the duet "Endless Love". The rest is a lot of nothing. There are some good records but they were not Top 20 hits, with a few exceptions like "I'm Coming Out".

Who remembers "Sleepin", "Surrender", or any of the RCA recordings? She could not build a concert tour on "Swept Away", "Working Overtime", "Eaten Alive"

She hasn't had a Top 10 Record in 30 years! It'a an amazing career but her years with the Supremes made that career. Most of the rest is filler.

What are you talking about R173? Ross owned the eighties. "The Boss" album "Diana", etc. Her concerts were major sell outs. I agree with you that her RCA years were not as stellar, (but she sure got paid), but that is why it's great that she has a large catalogue to pull things out of--and it's just not Supremes material.

[R171] "The Boss' and "Diana" were both before 1984. That is how long it's been...30 years! She left Motown in 1981. The hits stopped. The movies stopped. It's been rocky going since then.

When she first when solo she minimized the Supremes songs. Now they are the heart of her show. She knows it too.

Why are Susaye Greene's solo albums so weird?

[R176] Her album's are an acquired taste aren't they? I've always wondered what she and Scherrie could do with a real talented producer. Since the end of the Supremes, neither one has worked with anybody who could make magic.

I find Scherrie's Supremes retreads with the FLOS excruciating to listen to.

The Boss is a seventies release, and Diana might as well be, since it was recorded in 1979, with a Niles Rodger-Barney Edwards feel, and released early in 1980.

Also, r173, I think "Upside Down" was a number one hit and "I'm Coming Out" wasn't.

Sorry - Bernard Edwards, not Barney. And NILE Rogers.

[R178] Thanks for the correction. Sometimes what you are thinking and what you type are not the same. I teach college sometimes. The relevant cultural references are eye-opening.

Diana Ross is someone their grandparents used to listen to!

[quote]Diana Ross is someone their grandparents used to listen to!

Really? I was recently in some dance club (fundraising event) loaded with young twenty somethings. The DJ started a Supremes set which segued into Diana Ross. Those kids piled onto the dance floor, and danced their hearts out! It was really a sight to see.

[R181] Really. These students have never seen vinyl. They've heard of 45's and tapes. Some of them drive cars that have CD players.

They have no concept of albums, only downloads.

The Jackson 5 were popular when their parents were young.

The Supremes might as well be the Andrews sisters, catchy music but all a long long time ago.

Ms. Ross is 70! Tina Turner and Aretha Franklin are older.

When you were 18 were you listening to music by people in their 70's?

Actually, I was R182. Billy Holiday, Frank Sinatra, many, many, more...

[R183] Billy Holiday died in 1959 at age 44. So she was never a 70 year old. I listened to Bessie Smith when I was in college and my roommates could not believe I loved such old music. But Bessia and I were never alive at the same time.

Listening to classic jazz is very different. The classics are timeless? So are we saying that The Supremes are classics? Miss Ross is a classic?

I think so but it is still old music from a different generation.

[quote] Really. These students have never seen vinyl. They've heard of 45's and tapes. Some of them drive cars that have CD players.

You sound very out of touch. Vinyl is hipster's delight.

Scherrie released a single of "One Night Only" back around the time of the original DREAMGIRLS production. Was it popular in the clubs? I expected to like it more than I do (her voice sounds a bit wobbly). I prefer the Sylvester (ballad) version.

[R186] Okay disco single, not Scherrie's best. She was also associated with some "Dreamgirls Dance project"

By all accunts Scherrie Payne seems like a nice person. Her career seems like it's been managed by fans dabbling in show business.

Rather than hitching herself to "Dreamgirls" off the radar projects, she should have found a great producer and made some great records. Both she and Lynda could have used all that RTL money to records some demos that showcased their talent.

[quote] Rather than hitching herself to "Dreamgirls" off the radar projects, she should have found a great producer and made some great records. Both she and Lynda could have used all that RTL money to records some demos that showcased their talent.

Easier said than done, especially when she was in her 50s.

This grouping of Mary, Scherrie and Susaye is an exercise in vocal masturbation. At least now we know where Wilona, Florida and Thelma got their harmonies for their version of "Stop in the Name of Love" for the rent- party episode.

As if Mary had enough range to vocally masturbate.

This is the song, but no the performance that got them booed at Madison Square Garden

Wow, Susaye sounds like a church lady soprano trying to go "pop" in that performance.

{R185] First of all "Hipsters" are not ordinary students. Secondly, my info is based on two semesters of classroom discussion of music, film and television.

In a class of 30 only 2 own turntables and that's because they dj. None own a tape player. "My Girl" and "My Guy" were played at their grandparents' wedding.

Scherrie also released a dance version of "I'm Not In Love" in the early 80s. I think it was a hit because they were still playing it in the mid-90s in San Francisco clubs.

[quote] In a class of 30 only 2 own turntables and that's because they dj. None own a tape player

My knowledge comes from peers, many of whom I see in one of the few record stores left. And all new vinyl comes with an MP3 download link. Lots of young people buy vinyl and don't have the turntable to play it. Some just buy picture discs and put them on the wall.

Either way, vinyl is fashionable among young people, hipster or otherwise.

I know that some Supremes fans are passionate about Lynda Laurence but I just don't get her. Her voice is pleasant but not remarkable. She has very little star quality. Yet some Supremes fans adore her. once she joined the group it died. With all those producers at Motown scrambling to find a sound to make the group popular again no one ever chose to lead with Lynda. Even Cindy Birdsong got a line or two in recordings.

Diana Ross, Mary Wilson, Florence Ballard, Jean Terrell, Scherrie Payne and Susaye Green each sang lead on a Supremes recording. Barbara Martin and Cindy Birdsong sang a line or two. With Lynda there is only a verse in "Soft Days" Why?

Laurence wasn't in the group all that long, and she replaced someone who never sang lead. It's not that surprising.

[R197] True. And they did only one studio album during her tenure "Jim Webb"

[quote] And they did only one studio album during her tenure "Jim Webb"

Jean Terrell was quite pissed that Webb brought in the Blossoms and, I think, the Clydie King group to augment the Supremes' vocals on that album.

[R199] Clydie King has said in print that she sang lead on "Nathan Jones". So much for the truth.

NATHAN JONES is unique as it has something like a triple-tracked lead, and not just Jean Terrell triple tracked, so King may be able to hear herself on the track. Perhaps she filled in for Cindy Birdsong, whose voice I couldn't pick out of an audio line up.

[R251] On "Touch" Cindy sings the "Oh Baby" at the break; and "Talk to me, talk to me"

On "You've Got What it Takes" she sings "It will take more than an effort/to stay away from you/it will take more than a lifetime/and I'll be true to you"

r202: Who sings the first line of "Floy Joy" before Jean comes in?

[R203] Mary Wilson

The lyric is actually "Floyd Joy", right?

[R205] No, "Floy Joy".

It's sounds like Floyd, which makes more sense as it's a recognisable name. I suppose Floy could be a surname

I remember when "Floy Joy" made it to No. 1 in Boston. That was the last Supremes single to do so. It should have been greater across the country. Great record.

Bananarama did a better version of Nathan Jones (the WOW album version with Siobhan, not the single version with Jacquie).

[R209] I never heard that before. It is truly awful.

Mary Wilson works her ass off at her shows, or at least she did when I saw her twice something like ten and six years ago at outdoor festival events in NY state. She was appreciative of the large gay contingent in the audience.

Sure, her voice is not perfect, but she puts on a fun and entertaining show. Afterward at one, I told her "Come See About Me" was number 1 the week I was born, and she said something like "Christmastime 1964! Good times!"

[quote] Bananarama did a better version of Nathan Jones

Not possible with three non-singers.

my favorite non-diana supremes song is "driving wheel" from their last album. it's my JAM.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fe6EnNnDZUQ

Which of the post-Ross Supremes recordings are not aging well?

I think the recordings of the last two incarnations of the Supremes do not have the longevity of what came before them.

The Jim Webb album doesn't age well.

Good one r212. And I get it.

Not a huge Diana fan, but the Supremes minus Diana are unlistenable to me. Maybe it was mostly that they weren't getting the label support they used to. But Diana did also have the perfect lead voice for the group.

Disagree. Jean Terrell may not have had Diana's stage presence but she had a better voice and good interpretive abilities.

You could be right, I wouldn't know unless I heard Jean sing songs as good as the Supremes 60s classics, and with productions as good, which post-Diana Supremes didn't have. It also didn't help that the classic Motown pop sound was dead by the early 70s. They tried disco and even had a hit, but it still wasn't a good fit (or song.)

I always thought that Jean Terrell's voice was Diana Ross' on the first releases by the Supremes, post Ross. So did many around me. Very similar tone and techniques.

But without Ross' tenedency for nasality.

[R218] The early Supremes material with Jean Terrell is actually better than the material they produced in those dark days after HDH and Florence left. Some of that was unlistenable.

After the first three Jean Terrell-led albums, the sound fell apart. "Floy Joy" was the last nice effort. Parts of the Jim Webb album are excruciating.

The first time I heard Jean sing was on the Ed Sullivan Show . Her singing was restrained and pretty.

There were several physical altercations in the original Supremes, especially between Flo and Diana.

Really r222? About what?

[R223] Probably Mary Wilson told each of them separately that the other hit on her man.

I can't see Diana getting in a physical fight with anyone.

Flo would have whooped her ass but good.

Didn't Mary Wilson rip off Diana's wig at the Motown 25 special?

I used to like the Supremes until I read this thread.

There is a lot to like. enjoy the music. Ignore the drama.

The music that the Supremes released in the Jean Terrell years is superior to the output of Diana Ross and the Supremes after Florence left, with the exception of "Love Child" and "Someday"

The Post Diana Supremes were OUTSOLD by The Partridge Family, LOL!!!! When Mary & her Hispanic Bus Boy Husband took control over the group, "The Supremes" were doomed. Jean Terrell was a Good Vocalist, but she wasn't about to put up with that shit Patti LaBelle, The Three Degrees & others burried them

Here's a rare live performance with Four Tops. It sounds like someone turned off Mary and Cindy's mikes...

I think that Jean Terrell was the best choice of all considered options for replacing Ross in The Supremes in 1970, because Jean most had the brass and sass in her voice to phrase and wrap her pipes around the dramatic vocal riffs that typified Supremes records. But I can't agree or see that she or Ross were "better" singers than one or the other. I always felt that they were both good, but differently. Jean was more a stylist and her voice was more soulful--but Diana could convincingly sing more varied genres, and better so. Jean was a singer, but Diana was a performer and entertainer, IMO.

Should've replaced Diana with Chris Clark and renamed them the Oreos.