Was Abraham Lincoln gay?

Old Abe was gayer than a hoop skirt & Mary Todd Lincoln was a cunt, y'all!

Aren't all Illinois Republicans?

OF COURSE HE WAS!!

Isn't everyone gay?

R3, and here's the bigot to remind us that no one is gay. STFU.

Yes he was gay. He spent four years in bed with Joshua Speed, had lovers in office, and made a point of publicly supporting that flaming queen Walt Whitman. While they accuse gays of "anachronism," they invented a fake romance in New Salem, such is the dishonesty of "historians" on this issue.

He slept in a bed with another man, when he was young, and once wrote him a letter in which he wondered if 'other men felt the way' they did about each other.

In the Whiten House he often slept with handsome young soldiers.

GAY. The only historians who doubt it are the same rabble who refuse to accept Jefferson's black descendants.

I saw him shiver with emanci . . . . . pation!

Maybe he was just sensitive and open minded?

His Gettysburg Dress was a brilliant display of "less is more".

OK. Let's say he was. What's the take-away? What's the point?

Wouldn't Stephen Douglas have run negative campaign ads?

For starters, the Lincoln Memorial would need to be bathed in pink light after sundown.

If he was (and I'm not saying he was), he still wouldn't have fucked [bold]you,[/bold] OP.

He never sucked MY cock.

R10, once and for all, that gay men are capable of greatness, for those who still doubt it.

It was common back then at the Ivy Leagues for roommates to have one twin bed between them. It was often cold as shit, so straight or gay no one really was upset by that. And, OMG, some of them would sometimes help a buddy out. I think it was historically called the Princeton Rub or something like that. They would fuck between each other's thighs from behind or something. I don't feel like looking it up, so I might be a little off. I'm sure there were some gay relationships that formed out of that, some bi ones too. And since some of us humans get attached based on sexual interaction, and some don't, I'm sure that some straight guys ended up feeling deeply close to their college thigh-fuck buddy. From what I read, it certainly wasn't talked about, but because it was never talked about it was, in a way, more accepted? Or maybe understood and tolerated is a better choice of words?

Well, since we already know about Socrates and Plato and Shakespeare and Walt Whitman and Alexander the Great and Emperor Hadrian and James I and Frederick the Great and Dag Hammerskjold, why would adding Lincoln to that list make any difference?

The Princeton Rub is the same thing as intercrural intercourse: having sex by rubbing your dick against someone's thighs, with no penetration.

Because, r17, unlike those others, Abraham Lincoln is our American presidential martyr, our national Jesus Christ, if you will, and we can't sully his reputation that all that nasty gay stuff.

I see. All you have to offer is circular reasoning.

Abraham Lincoln a Republican President,freed the slaves while the Democrats were wildly opposed to freeing the slaves.

The sharing a bed thing was very common then. You can't use today's norms to explain what people did 150 years ago.

R21, the democrats and republicans flipped at one point, look it up. The republicans used to be the 'liberals' and the democrats used to be the 'conservatives'. Then they traded names. True story.

'Why Did the Democratic and Republican Parties Switch Platforms?'

from r25 link:

So, sometime between the 1860s and 1936, the (Democratic) party of small government became the party of big government,

Also known as Big Brother.

Does it matter? He's dead,so he won't be sleeping with you or anybody anytime soon?

Is there anyone that you don't think is gay?

Other Than That Mrs. Lincoln How Did You Like the Gay?

As a historian and Lincoln scholar, I'm glad to address the topic. (This being the DataLounge, who cares, right?)

Put simply, we don't know. But my strong sense is that Lincoln was, emotionally, a gay man enculturated strongly enough to live as a bisexual and a married man, with some time out.

It is not true that "homosexuality as we understand it did not exist at the time." Tell that to Walt Whitman. Gay cruising, gay cruise sites (bars, parks, particular streets), tricking, relationship and the rest were well established.

In some ways, 19th century values were less constrained than ours, in that toleration for intense, quasi-romantic same-sex friendships, presuming some measure of physical intimacy was widespread. This tolerance fell into the realm of "none of our business" and "not something to discuss." Respect for privacy, even in a gossip-loving time, was strong. And men were men.

At the same time, social mores were so predominant and gay life-partnering was so unusual that gay tendencies largely were subsumed in marriage with women (the same with gay women, who had even fewer options) and family life. Men had their outlets, but once married the need for discretion, with less options for hooking up outside established relationships, had its effect.

Traditional marriage therefore was usually considered a given for a man wanting to establish himself and pursue a career. Just like the recent past. James Buchanan was extremely unusual in never marrying; note, though, that despite the flippant sissy talk about him and his partner William Rufus King, he navigated in social and diplomatic settings quite well.

Lincoln's friendships prior to Speed are not well documented. The Lincoln mythology long ago sealed off details of the early life beyond the familiar legends. The impression is one of a loner, a young man who remained aloof while giving every appearance of being smart, normal and engaged in the usual pastimes. He always stood apart.

Lincoln did travel to New Orleans at least once, and seems to have had experience with female prostitutes there. He also probably contracted venereal disease in his younger days, likely from a prostitute.

Lincoln also appears to have enjoyed, well into his adulthood, "camping trips" arranged as commercial travel ventures. These group camping trips, for which men would sign up, offered an opportunity for men - either friends or strangers - to meet and spend private time together, under literal cover of darkness.

Lincoln's relationship with Speed was intimate and physically close. Comments already made about sleeping arrangements are true. Bed sharing was common and not inherently sexual. However, Speed and Lincoln shared a very close life. I believe it likely that their intimacy extended to sexual experience. Speed appears to have been Lincoln's first intimate adult relationship. Lincoln fell apart after Speed's marriage, and nearly fell apart as his own approached. Speed and his wife saw him through. Lincoln's letter to Speed at the time is clear about his underlying issues.

Lincoln was attracted to Mary - her personality, status. He needed a wife. With Mary he did very well. They had a strong sexual relationship until the Tad's birth, but Mary's health slowed things down. Lincoln was 44 at that time. Again, Lincoln was enculturated, and he did not find sex with women impossible. Obviously.

But all through his life Lincoln had long separations from his family - riding the circuit, serving his second year in Congress. His was a man's world. He enjoyed men in a way he did not enjoy women. Aligning with his times, he belittled women, abhorred their intrusion into "men's business," even as Mary was the most "intrusive" woman of her day. I expect that Lincoln found comfort with men during his absences. He didn't chase women.

Even in the White House Lincoln found cause to get away. His time at the Soldier's Home cottage has been noted. He did arrange for men - soldiers/guards - to stay with him and to sleep with him. Other arrangements were available. Proof? No. But….

How dare you post a historically informed, thoughtful, and reasonably measured reply, r29!

Don;t you know this is the Datalounge?

I like a nice Princeton Rub on my veal cutlets. So juicy!

Abe was a bipolar mess.

Lincoln was a Classical Liberal aka Libertarian.

Also, Abe wanted the blacks shipped back to Africa and never assuming higher office.

Was he a top or a bottom? I'm envisioning him as a top when he was with a southerner, but versatile otherwise.

Obama's Lincoln love is highly ironic. The Civil War was not fought over slavery either.

Oh fuck no, Lincoln was not a libertarian.

"If I could save the Union without freeing any slaves I would." Abraham Lincoln

He liked rimming and, in later years, sounding.

There was another "was Lincoln gay" thread a long time ago. Basically, every important historical figure in history (and every good-looking actor) has been proclaimed gay on Datalounge.

There is no historical evidence that proves with all certainty that Abraham Lincoln ever had sex with another man. Of course you can speculate all you want, but there's no actual proof of any kind that Lincoln liked to get his cock sucked and his asshole rimmed and plowed.

R39 is right. Until a video turns up we're not buying that story about Lincoln and Speed. The same goes for Walt Whitman. It there's no video, he's wasn't gay.

"he's wasn't gay."

Oh, dear. Oh, DEAR.

It's more than an "Oh, dear." It's an OMG! R41, I wondered who made that stupid typo. I'm crying as I type.

Now, back to the historic gays and non-gays.

There are diary entries from George Washington telling about riding naked in the wilderness on his surveying trips with his BFF Fairfax. Historians tell us he was interested in Sally Fairfax. Could she have been an 18th century version of a temporary beard while his real interest was a male member of the family?

r11,

Stephen Douglas was probably gay too if Lincoln was. Mary Todd dated him before Lincoln. She was a total power beard.

r35 is one of those racist, libertarian revisionists who thinks the Civil War was fought over federalism vs states' rights. Conveniently forgetting that what those states wanted to retain the right to own people as property. To own people as property. Sounds like slavery to me.

r29, loved your post. As a student of history, particularly the 18th and 19th century, I totally concur with your statement about how a gay subculture did, indeed, exist back then. There's increasingly too much evidence to indicate it, and that so many historians -- even gay historians -- continue to assert otherwise baffles me.

R33 is ridiculous. A man who single-handedly forced the Union back together while suspending basic Constitutional protections to do it hardly was libertarian. And as for his complicated views on race, he was a man of his times who grew in office to the point where he not only dropped his racist, back-to-Africa-and-send-them-home notions, but stated that the nation deserved the rending horrors of the Civil War because of what it did to African Americans. R33 needs to read the Second Inaugural Address and shut up.

R35 is ridiculous. There is nothing ironic about Obama's "love" of Lincoln, just as there was nothing ironic about Douglass' or Sojourner Truth's love of Lincoln. (Look them up, R35.) And the absurd claim that the war was not fought over slavery ignores the core reason why the Southern states seceded.

All sorts of silliness invades the DL. That's fine. We all tell tales and make things up and parade our ignorance like it's something to cherish. But when it comes to sheer stupidity concerning the fundamentals of our history, the crap needs to be flushed.

It is kind of weird that Lincoln gets all the homosexual speculation when Washington had no kids with Martha and Jefferson picked the site of Monticello based on that being his favorite place to go with his male BFF Dabney Carr, and that they both promised each other that if the other one died, that they would bury the other on the mountain.

R39-R40 and R22 are typical of the ignorant shits who treat homosexuality like a murder accusation that has to be proved beyond a reasonable doubt. We have more evidence for the homosexuality of Lincoln than we have for the heterosexuality of any president. Sharing a bed for four years was a) not necessary in Springfield, where Lincoln was offered a bedroom in another house; b) which was far enough from the frontier that the Donner family not only got rich but lost all their wilderness survival instincts; and c) not only are there copious love letters between Lincoln and Speed, but Lincoln was famed for his dirty jokes including gay jokes about ass babies. The only anachronism here is the hidebound world of the so-called professional historians who have consistently misrepresented the past to serve a heterosexual paradigm they've never proved or established.

..well except for Clinton of course.

That's tellin' 'em R49. Especially R40 wanting video proof. No doubt Lincoln and Speed wouldn't let anyone with a video camera into their bedroom. You should have pointed that out.

I think it is a safe bet to say that he had attractions to men. The history is fairly clear on this!

[quote]but Lincoln was famed for his dirty jokes including gay jokes about ass babies.

Link please.

"Reuben & Charles have married 2 girls / But Billy has married a boy . . . Billy and natty agree very well / Mamma is pleased with the match. / The Egg is laid but won't hatch." And Billy, another Grigsby son, is told by the woman who has rejected his marriage proposal, "you Cursed ball head / My Suitor you never Can be / besides your low Croch proclaims you a botch / and that never Can anser for me."

"...[Lincoln said,] 'there is Busey--he pretends to be a great heart smasher--does wonderful things with the girls--but I'll venture that he never entered his flesh but once and that is when he fell down & stuck his finger in his--'; right out in open Court."

And this was the man whom mainstream "historians" say was too innocent of all things sexual to have sex with another man he shared a bed with for four years. "Those were different times," they say. They sure were. Different from the prudish idiot heteronormative mindset of the mid twentieth century hate machine of professional historians. Indeed, Lincoln's predecessor in office as president was a lifelong bachelor who cohabited with another senator.

It was the time of Melville, Hawthorne, and Whitman. Show me the heterosexual.

No evidence that Washington was after Sally Fairfax.

Queers won the Civil War, there is really no doubt about it.

Montgomery Meigs was another one.

Confederates had them too of course, such as Judah Benjamin.

He'd always refer to me as a "Big Mary."

I see Larry Kramer has joined the thread.

I can always recognize his always-inappropriately-rageful "scorched earth" argumentative tactics--and he is a known past Datalounge contributor.

And I can always recognize your incompetent ad hominem attacks that have nothing to do with the issues R63. What I don't understand is why someone on a gay message board would feel such a vested interest in upholding "history" which is 100% false to anyone whose has read even a modest amount of original sources from that era. Obviously history in the US has usually been the province of people who teach children, so it has been de-gayed and desexualized generally. But this childlike cartoon figure of Lincoln that they built should never be confused with reality.

Hi, Larry!

Here, this will put you in a much less cranky mood--you'll love it: it's from a movie you wrote!

I am not Larry Kramer and I haven't even read his book.

That said, I'm sure he's right.

R66 et al. (and I do mean al.), you're right on most of your points, of course, although I'm not sure that queers won the war. They did assist, of course, but Grant, Sherman and Meade appear to have been straight.

But, just for additional clarification, Lincoln and Speed did not share a bed in Springfield. They lived together in New Salem, and Speed moved from there to Kentucky to tend to his marriage and family land.

Also, R40 seems to have been kidding, probably in response to the "if you can't show me absolute proof I won't believe it" line of argument.

Finally, the telling of jokes, including gay-ish egg one, is not in itself an indication of homosexuality, naturally. Knowing of and ridiculing gay sex and such hardly is the territory of gay people only. But your point that Lincoln enjoyed ribald humor and told sex jokes is true. No topic seems to have beyond him, especially when he could turn the joke to self-ridicule in some way.

Now, since I'm the person who wrote the long post saying that I thought it likely that Lincoln was primarily focused on men and male intimacy, despite his heterosexual experience, please don't take my comments here as more of the "Larry Kramer" shit. Thanks.

"We have more evidence for the homosexuality of Lincoln than we have for the heterosexuality of any president."

No, we don't, you psychotic asshole.

There are no "copious love letters" between Lincoln and Speed. That is a total lie. And I suppose you don't think there's any real evidence that FDR, or Dwight Eisenhower, or Lyndon Johnson, or JFK or Bill Clinton were heterosexual. No doubt you believe JFK was a closeted homosexual who tried to hide his lust for cock by fucking practically every female who crossed his path. What an idiot you are.

Maybe Abe wasn't gay, but I'm willing to bet Lou Henry Hoover was a dyke.

false R68. They shared a bed in Springfield for four years, not New Salem. His letters expressing love for Speed were known BEFORE Larry Kramer found his documents, so they were emphatically not all fakes.

The point about the jokes is the claim that it would be routine for adult men to share bed for years and not have sex. The claim is made because historians act like this was a society that knew nothing of sexuality as we understand it today, and the dirty jokes show the opposite: that they were more like today's prurient sexified culture than anything historians have written in the last hundred years has been. It also showed that homosexuality was on Lincoln's mind. It was not something he had no thoughts about or knowledge of.

JFK is also alleged to have male lovers. Lyndon Johnson had a close aide who was arrested for gay sex. The jury is certainly still out on what most presidents were all about sexually. For one thing, very few presidents shared a bed or a bedroom with their wives. It was routine in most of american history for the president and first lady to sleep apart, and they still maintain separate staffs. If these were "sexual" marriages, you will not find any evidence anywhere.

It is likely that JFK and Clinton between them had more heterosexual sex in the White House than all the other presidents combined did.

[quote]Also, R40 seems to have been kidding, probably in response to the "if you can't show me absolute proof I won't believe it" line of argument

Yes, it was in reply to the dimwit at R39 who has yet to provide one shred of evidence that Lincoln could have been straight. I want proof!

[quote]It is likely that JFK and Clinton between them had more heterosexual sex in the White House than all the other presidents combined did.

Did you flunk history in school?

"who has yet to provide one shred of evidence that Lincoln could have been straight. I want proof!"

Here is some useful info for you, courtesy of "The Straight Dope" in answer to the question "how valid is the allegation of Honest Abe being gay?:

You got me, partner. On the one hand, Abe has merely joined the long list of famous parties dubiously outed by gay activists, who are presumably prompted by the same impulse that leads African-Americans to claim Cleopatra was black. (She was Macedonian Greek, in case you're wondering.) As literary scholar Richard Kaye noted in the Village Voice's Queer Issue last year, other supposed gays in history include Jane Austen, Adolf Hitler, Eleanor Roosevelt, Robin Hood, T.S. Eliot, and Jesus. On the other hand, Lincoln slept with a man for years and seems to have had little use for women--you can see where people nowadays might jump to conclusions. Considering how the Thomas Jefferson/Sally Hemings thing turned out, I wouldn't be too quick to say they're wrong.

The chief evidence, if such it be, of Lincoln's homosexual inclination is his relationship with Joshua Speed, a handsome 22-year-old shopkeeper when the two men met in 1837. Abe, then a 28-year-old lawyer with bright prospects but poor cash flow, arrived in Springfield, Illinois, and asked about the price of bedding at Speed's general store. Learning that Lincoln was nearly broke, Speed invited him to share his bed upstairs. "The traveler inspected the bed and, looking into the merchant's sparkling blue eyes, agreed on the spot," Carol Lloyd wrote in Salon in 1999. "For the next four years the two men shared that bed along with their most private fears and desires."

Sure, Lloyd's retelling is tongue-in-cheek. While two young single guys in the same bed might seem pretty hot to us, the objective in pioneer days was usually just to stay warm. Nonetheless the intimacy of the two men's friendship suggests to some that there was more going on than frontier privation or fear of frostbite--and rabble-rousing gay activist Larry Kramer says he has proof, namely hitherto unknown letters and a diary kept by Speed. At a gay and lesbian conference in 1999 Kramer read from his unfinished book "The American People," quoting that diary: "He often kisses me when I tease him, often to shut me up . . . he would grab me up by his long arms and hug and hug," Speed purportedly wrote. "Yes, our Abe is like a schoolgirl." But Kramer won't submit his source material to scrutiny until the book's publication, so who knows if it'll wash. C.A. Tripp, a former Kinsey researcher and author of the milestone 1975 text The Homosexual Matrix, reportedly finished a book making similar claims shortly before his death in 2003, but there's no news on when we'll see it.

Anyhow. Five years have passed with no sign of Kramer's magnum opus, and the natives are getting restless. Historian Gabor Boritt calls Kramer's claims "almost certainly a hoax"; Lincoln scholar David Donald says they're "highly dubious." Kramer for his part says Donald is a "dried old heterosexual prune at Harvard."

More from "The Straight Dope":

Meanwhile, others have been sifting the Lincoln coffee grounds for clues.

Findings pro and con: "Abraham Lincoln did not like women," writes psychobiographer Michael Burlingame. Certainly he wasn't comfortable around them, judging from remarks by contemporaries. Accounts of romantic encounters are few and often disputed. His marriage to Mary Todd, while perhaps not the nightmare some paint it as, was neither peaceful nor happy. Shortly after his assassination a story circulated that as a young man he'd fallen in love with one Ann Rutledge, whose untimely death left him inconsolable, but recent scholarship casts doubt on its veracity. Lincoln may have patronized prostitutes, but the most common such tale sounds suspiciously like a barroom joke--the woman asked for five dollars, but Lincoln had only three, and rather than owe her the rest, Honest Abe buttoned up his pants and left.

Abe's enemies accused him of plenty, but never a yen for men. Today we're all but sure J. Edgar Hoover was gay and that Jefferson sired children by a slave, but people suspected as much at the time. No comparable rumors swirled around Lincoln. It's not like folks in the 19th century didn't know what homosexuality was--Lincoln's predecessor, James Buchanan, the only bachelor president, roomed for years with an unmarried U.S. senator and took plenty of flak for it. We'll see if the Tripp and Kramer books can settle this matter--Lincoln's sexual orientation is one question DNA tests seem unlikely to resolve.

There's still no proof that he was straight.

In 1860, "straight," "white," and "Christian" were the defaults.

[quote]In 1860, "straight," "white," and "Christian" were the defaults.

That's what the KKKristian historians want everyone to believe.

Major pussy-hound, big Ulysses S. Grant supporter.

But most university and college 19th century historians today (like most academic today) are liberals, and gay-friendly. (If you don't believe me, ask a conservative.)

I really do not think they would cover it up if they believed there were irrefutable evidence he were gay OR straight. Most of them will say what The Straight Dope said: we don't know for sure one way or the other. He may have had sex with Speed, or they may just have been in a bromance.

"There's still no proof that he was straight."

There's still no proof he was gay.

r82, really? I've got a degree in history and, trust me, those "liberal, gay-friendly" historians are only "liberal, gay-friendly" to a degree. Sure, some of them are totally cool, but too many of them are actually rather conservative, not wanting to rock the boat, and gay-friendly only to your face.

That's ridiculous.

R82 is lying. Most of the liberal gay-friendly profs believe Lincoln was gay, which is probably a view of the MAJORIY of academics today.

Historians did not accuse Buchanan of being gay until after gays unearthed evidence. There was a cone of silence around him too.

"the objective in pioneer days was usually just to stay warm."

FALSE. Springfield was not the frontier, we were not in "pioneer" days, and Lincoln was offered a bed in his own bedroom in another house and elected to stay with Speed. This is flat out denial of human nature, and an anachronistic impostition of censored television values of the 1950s on the 1840s.

This thread is useless without Daguerreotypes.

WW r89

If he was gay Mary seemed to be unaware of it. She was insanely jealous and would never allow a woman to be alone with Abe.

Another thing about the ridiculous "the objective in pioneer days was usually just to stay warm" notion: It's Springfield, Illinois, not Anchorage, Alaska. It gets hot in the summertime. For four years they slept together?

In some cultures, especially the South, sleeping in the same bed means nothing. It's not like everyone who shared a bed fucked. In Southern families parents would frequently sleep in the same bed with their children, but that didn't mean they were fucking them.

Can you really not tell the difference between a parent and child sharing a bed, and two unrelated men? Sure friends may on occasion sleep together, and not [italic]together[/italic], but four years (if that's true) is a very long occasion.

That's untrue R93. Adult Men sleeping in the same bed have sex. Everybody even in the South knows this. And for many of them, their father is their brother if you know what I mean.

LOSER KEEPS BIEBER

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

[quote] No comparable rumors swirled around Lincoln.

Not true. There were rumors he was sleeping with his bodyguard.

[quote]t was during this time, on November 16, 1862, that Virginia Woodbury Fox wrote in her diary: "Tish says, 'there is a Bucktail Soldier here devoted to the President, drives with him, & when Mrs L. is not home, sleeps with him.' What stuff!'"[4]

"Adult Men sleeping in the same bed have sex."

That's a pretty sweeping statement. I suppose you were under the bed when Lincoln bunked with his bro, and heard them fucking and sucking. No, I didn't think so.

Lincoln was truly hated by a lot of people during his lifetime. If there was any real evidence to suggest that he liked sex with men, you can bet that his enemies would have used that to their advantage, gleefully.

Its a trend these days to try and make every single person of any note gay. It sells.

[quote]Its(sic) a trend these days to try and(sic) make every single person of any note gay.

In some areas, it's a trend to use proper English.

The tedious yelper here, the type of "historian" who says "lying" when someone misstates or says something with which she disagrees, has once again ruined the thread.

I wish this person, who makes good points and whose actual corrections I appreciate, could learn the difference between scholarship and polemic. It's one thing for the cretins to perform so here. It's another for someone to go mad in front of our eyes.

When he was poor and single, MAYBE sharing a bed was out of necessity. (But for years?)

Sleeping with your bodyguard when you are POTUS and your wife is away is not so easy to dismiss.

Lincoln's actual quote was "All men are created equal--except at the beach"

No, just no.

[quote]In some cultures, especially the South, sleeping in the same bed means nothing.

As a southerner, even I am going to need some sources cited for this. Unless you were young siblings during the Depression, this rings no bells for me.

[bold]Yes

He used to tell the soldiers he summoned to spoon with him that he needed to polish his bayonet between their thighs.

Kushner and Speilberg obviously didn't think so

"When he was poor and single, MAYBE sharing a bed was out of necessity. (But for years?"

Did Lincoln share a bed with another man, every night of the year, for years? Of course not. So stop trying to make it seem like he slept with another for "years."

Lyndon Johnson used to force "Jumbo" on the some of the more submissive members of the press pool.

"As a southerner, even I am going to need some sources cited for this. Unless you were young siblings during the Depression, this rings no bells for me."

I'm also from the South. And believe me, it was considered no big deal for parents to share a bed with their children.

I remember there was some story in the National Enquirer that Elvis Presley had a sexually intimate relationship with his mother, proof being they would sometimes sleep in the same bed. The story originated with Elvis's atrocious, gold-digging stepmother Dee. I think it was on Geraldo Rivera's talk show that a man who knew the Presley family heatedly told her off, saying that the accusation that Elvis and his mother were sexually involved was a lie, and that a parent and child sharing the same bed was not unusual at all in a Southern, low-income family.

[quote][/bold]Did Lincoln share a bed with another man, every night of the year, for years? Of course not.

[/bold]You're right. There were several nights, every few months, when one or the other had to be on business overnight in another town. Thus they did not share a bed "every night of the year." They shared a bed on most nights of the year for several years.

"They shared a bed on most nights of the year for several years."

Define "most nights."

The way you "Lincoln was gay" nuts go on you would think he and this guy practically lived as a married couple.

I agree with r101. If a historian ever does manage to put over the case successfully that Lincoln was bi, it's going to be through the careful and learned presentation of historical data and through persuasive argument--not through just shrieking at other people at the top of his lungs.

The "He's stright" freaks demonstrate the same Fundie Frau mentality that would have everyone believe Kevin Spacey and John Travolta are straight.

[quote]But most university and college 19th century historians today (like most academic today) are liberals, and gay-friendly. (If you don't believe me, ask a conservative.)

Because conservatives have unbiased views of other peoples' political views?

You're a moron (as proven by the rest of your post).

R115 is correct.

This place is full of self loathing cretins.

R114 that ship sailed years ago. If you listen to the apologias of people like Carl Sandburg, it's pretty clear that everyone who studied Lincoln closely knew he was gay.

his enemies got more mileage out of calling him black (an ape, baboon, gorilla, etc.) for obvious reasons.

Anyway I believe Amos Kendall accused him of being a bottom-boy for the abolitionists so I'm not sure it's true that they refrained from this type of accusation.

"With the election of 1864 approaching, the London Evening Standard called him a "foul-tongued and ribald punster" who was also the "most despicable tyrant of modern days." The Leeds Intelligencer at about the same time denounced him as "that concentrated quintescence [sic] of evil, that Nero in the most shrunken ... form of idolatry, that flatulent and indecent jester." The language of the London Times was scarcely more restrained. Condemning the Emancipation Proclamation as an effort to incite murderous slave uprisings, it suggested that Lincoln might ultimately be classed "among that catalogue of monsters, the wholesale assassins and butchers of their kind."

The flatulent and indecent jester was probably intended to evoke gays.

Edgar Lee Masters: "Lincoln was an undersexed man" in the sense of not desiring women.

Nathaniel Stephenson: "the story is that of a man's man, perhaps because there was so much of the feminine in his own makeup"

I had no idea that Lincoln had a breakdown right when Speed left him.

"By 1840, both Lincoln and Speed — now 31 and 26— were considered well past the marrying age. Both bachelors reportedly were hesitant to tie the knot, but it was a de-facto requirement to have a wife if you wanted to move in political circles — or at least create the perception of interest in marriage. Both Speed and Lincoln dreaded this “requirement,” as evidenced by Lincoln’s letters. Speed takes the marriage plunge first and moves back to Kentucky, leaving Lincoln. At this precise time, Lincoln suffered a mental breakdown. Historians have been all over the map as to what caused the breakdown, but it was so intense that friends, including Herndon, worried he would take his own life. Lincoln only recovered after Speed invited him to visit him and his new wife in Kentucky."

[quote]The flatulent and indecent jester was probably intended to evoke gays.

Oh no it was not at all.

You know nothing of the mid 19th century press if you believe that. You're just making shit up wholesale.

The Washington Blade is not exactly an trustworthy, unbiased source of information. In fact, it appears to bend over backwards trying to make Abraham Lincoln into a tormented closet homosexual. Such bullshit.

"The "He's stright" freaks demonstrate the same Fundie Frau mentality that would have everyone believe Kevin Spacey and John Travolta are straight.'

You're comparing Lincoln with Kevin Spacey and John Travolta?

Boy, are you an fucking idiot.

"If you listen to the apologias of people like Carl Sandburg, it's pretty clear that everyone who studied Lincoln closely knew he was gay'

Uh, no. That's total crap. Just because YOU want Lincoln to be gay doesn't mean he actually was.

[quote]You're comparing Lincoln with Kevin Spacey and John Travolta?

NO!!! I'm not. But you would like people to believe that --- along with your other lies.

I'm merely pointing to the morons who are posting the same bullshit in other threads of well-known gay men. You lack the intelligence to see that it was not comparing those men, but was pointing to the ignorant Fundie Frau mentality that you and your ilk exhibit. Why don't crawl back to your KKKristian hovel and let people have an intelligent discussion.

[quote]If you listen to the apologias of people like Carl Sandburg, it's pretty clear that everyone who studied Lincoln closely knew he was gay'

You're right on target with that. Of course, the moron infesting this theead will deny the facts but there's not the slightest doubt that she's totally ignorant of Carl Sandburg and any other Lincoln scholars.

I don't think historians are even letting Alexander the Great be gay on the record yet. Forget Lincoln.

r125, are there facts in the Blade article you take issue with, or are you just displaying your own anti-gay bias in your dismissal of a source because it's a gay newspaper?

Lincoln was not gay but he was bisexual.

That's because Alexander the Great was bisexual R130.

"You know nothing of the mid 19th century press if you believe that. You're just making shit up wholesale."

They were comparing Lincoln to Nero. In 67, Nero ordered a young freedman, Sporus, to be castrated and then married him.

"Of course, the moron infesting this theead will deny the facts but there's not the slightest doubt that she's totally ignorant of Carl Sandburg and any other Lincoln scholars."

What "Lincoln scholars" have said "Lincoln was gay?" Which ones have been quoted as saying "Lincoln was gay, no doubt about it, he was a closeted gay man?"

You're just a yammering idiot who wants Lincoln to be gay.

From Sandburg, "At a remark in Mayor Sanderson's house in Galesburg that he was 'afraid of women,' Lincoln laughed. 'A woman is the only thing I am afraid of that I know can't hurt me.'"

"From Sandburg, "At a remark in Mayor Sanderson's house in Galesburg that he was 'afraid of women,' Lincoln laughed. 'A woman is the only thing I am afraid of that I know can't hurt me.'"

And that's proof that Lincoln was gay? Boy, are you really grasping at straws.

Yes, Lincoln was afraid of women. He was homely and clumsy (he was a terrible dancer); he didn't know how to flirt and banter and be charming. He always feared making a fool of himself when interacting with females. That was why he was "afraid" of them. But of course if you want Lincoln to be gay, you can certainly interpret it otherwise: "he was afraid of women because he was GAY!"

Lincoln knew more about banter and charm than anyone you have ever met R137. It's not one thing. It's a hundred, plus the fact that he shared a bed with a man for years. Not the first man either.

I'm surprised Lincoln didn't marry until he was 33.

[quote]He always feared making a fool of himself when interacting with females.

No doubt he told you that. What else did he tell you?

"No doubt he told you that. What else did he tell you?"

No doubt he told you he was gay. Did he tell you how many cocks he took up the ass?

Letter to Mary Owens, May 7, 1837

"I have been spoken to by but one woman since I have been here (in Springfield), and should not have been by her if she could have avoided it."

Letter to Mrs. O.H. Browning April 1, 1838

"I have now come to the conclusion never again to think of marrying, and for this reason - I can never be satisfied with anone who would be blockheaded enough to have me."

Men wake up with boners. Abraham and Joshua Speed slept in a bed that was 4 feet by 5.5 feet. That is my guess on the dimensions of the bed from the picture I saw of a reconstruction of it. The bed was small, smaller than Abraham. Someone was going to wake up with a boner on their back.

Those of you who are trying to persuade the rest of us he was gay are not being very convincing so far.

My mom told me he was gay from the time I was little, so I believe it without being objective. Why would she have said it if it wasn't true? Hahaha.

She also told me about a bunch of old famous lesbians...Margaret Mead, Eleanor Roosevelt, etc.

Mom made history fun.

Gay as a social construct or lifestyle did not exist in Lincoln's time.

He could not have been gay.

He did like men and preferred them for sex, but not gay.

POINTLESS

R146, your comments are not accurate.

Your ignorance does not provide a firm basis for arguing against fact. I refer to the fact that the gay social construct and/or gay lifestyle did exist, not, of course, to the always open question of Abraham Lincoln's gayness.

You likely (as others have here) will argue then that based on YOUR definition, blah blah blah. We are not obliged to consider your narrow and to-the-case-fit arguments and evidence when determining the fact of gay identity and lifestyle in the 19th century.

By the way, of course this lifestyle was suppressed. Social and legal barriers of course altered the manner in which gay lifestyle was expressed. But that is not an argument against its existence. You might just as well say there were no Christians under Nero because they tended to keep things quiet.

I'm surprised that someone isn't accusing Jesus Christ himself of being gay because he was always hanging out with his twelve man posse.

He may have been homosexual, but not gay. It did not exist.

Christians did exist and they had a christian identity.

Lincoln never knew the word gay.

r150 believes he is "straight-acting".

[quote]Those of you who are trying to persuade the rest of us he was gay are not being very convincing so far.

Those of you who seem to imagine he was straight have provided no proof. Thus we must assume he was gay unless you can prove otherwise.

Lincoln's letters to Speed when Speed wrote him that he thought he didn't really love his intended bride, and Lincoln says the fact that you care about her when sick PROVES you love her if you can just get past your debilitated nerves, while also being jealous of him, are pretty clear but too long to quote here. Also Lincoln's trashing of Mary Owens who he said so fat and toothless no other man would have her so he figured he would although he doesn't want to, are very revealing.

"I'm surprised that someone isn't accusing Jesus Christ himself of being gay because he was always hanging out with his twelve man posse."

There actually was a thread a while back about how Jesus Christ must have been gay because he hung out with all those guys. His disciple John was known as "the disciple Jesus loved" and that too, was given as proof that Jesus was gay. He "loved" John? What else could that mean except that Jesus liked the homosex?

It was much more than that R154, beloved John was leaning on his breast and Jesus confided his mother to John's care when it was time to be crucified.

R154 is typical of the idiot heteronormative mindset that assumes what has never been proved.

Any serious historian in the 21st century would conclude that Abe wasn't straight.

John 13:23-25 "Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved. Simon Peter therefore beckoned to him, that he should ask who it should be of whom he spake. He then lying on Jesus' breast saith unto him, Lord, who is it?"

John 19:26-27 "When Jesus therefore say his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son! Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home."

Heteronormative apologists claims this means nothing since no sex is implied, but obviously since Jesus loved everyone, there is no reason to single out his love for this disciple unless something more was implied. Their belief that all love is heterosexual or platonic is nonsensical and unsupported anywhere in the bible. Furthermore, Jesus clearly had a same sex family in the second example, since the fate of his mother would certainly have been to be billeted on blood relatives under the laws of the time. Their backup position is that this is a mistranslation in KJV and that "bosom" is mistranslation of a word for an eating couch, but that doesn't explain why the disciple is on it or why he has privileged access to Jesus as implied by Simon Peter's need for him to intercede with the master. Besides, in all most of the other cases in the Bible where there has been a mistranslation, they say their translation is "divinely inspired" and therefore it doesn't matter what the original says, specifically when refers to gay sex as in the David and Jonathan story. This backup position is just another dishonest argumentation.

A lot of people don't want Lincoln to be gay.

I thought it was common knowledge that Lincoln had more than one beard.

What possible difference does it make?

The issue of the shared bed has not been adequately explained.

As far as the poverty angle, two truly straight men would figure out a way to get another bed. A straw mat on the floor would be fine for one of them, they could even trade off.

That's what straight men do. Gay men make excuses to the world in order to sleep together.

"It's cold" might work in Springfield, Illinois in January, but not in May, June, July, August and September.

How should I know, darling? He never sucked my dick.

They could have used a bundling board, but there has never been a mention of one.

[quote]Gay men make excuses to the world in order to sleep together. "It's cold" might work in Springfield, Illinois in January, but not in May, June, July, August and September.

You've got that right!

There's just too much that points to Abe being at least bi, if not gay.

Time to say goodnight

Gayer than a tree full of rainbow lorikeets on Hugh Jackman's verandah.

r161 He is one of the most important political figures in the US, why wouldn't one aspect of his life be important. This is what historians and biographers do.

I wouldn't be surprised if he was bisexual.

Lincoln's stepmother also said shortly after his death that he "was never that interested in girls".

He was a bitch-John Wilkes Boothe

In the next generation, we're going to have more historians who will stop trying to hide the fact that many famous men, like Lincoln, were gay.

The circular argument is the homophobic one. IE, lots of men shared beds. The underlying inference is meant to be that these men never touched one another 'down there'.

Yet situational homosexuality was fairly common in the past. Until women went west, all the brothels in the Old West were filled with male prostitutes. In the Puritan era, it was not uncommon for men to be punished for having sex with one another, a transgression considered on a par with public drunkenness.

In our own times we know that men often experiment when they are young, regardless of how they identify. Men in prison have sex with one another.

So the argument that all these men were merely 'sharing beds' overlooks the fact that they were also sharing bodily fluids.

Original queen Walt Whitman knew Lincoln was gay and wrote about it in a letter to a friend. Whitman said he and Lincoln shared the same eye twinkle or some shit. Eye twinkle=old-timey euphemism for GAY.

Well, he did love the theater.

[quote]Lincoln's stepmother also said shortly after his death that he "was never that interested in girls".

Can you provide attribution of this? Very interesting but I can't tell if you were joking.

[quote]Those of you who are trying to persuade the rest of us he was gay are not being very convincing so far.

I really don't give a flyin'-fuk what you think. Abe and Joshua had sex. The Fairfax that held George Washington's interest wasn't Sally Fairfax.

Uh R6 don't play the race card; it is tired and old...NO historians deny Jefferson's fling with the black slave. Geesh, if you tour Monticello, the tour guide even TELLS you about it!

so please stop the race card, m'dear.

and back in Lincoln's day, it was not uncommon for men to share a bed in various circumstances.

He may have been gay, but more than likely, gay behavior would have been very repressed. No cal boys or Hollywood wannabes throwing themselves at famous people.

Very interesting take on the topic at link. It was an open secret in the Herndon family.

[quote]NO historians deny Jefferson's fling with the black slave. Geesh, if you tour Monticello, the tour guide even TELLS you about it!

Give me a break! It took two centuries before historians would admit to this. No doubt you'll point to some DNA test from 1852 so you can continue your silly rant.

[quote]I really don't give a flyin'-fuk what you think. Abe and Joshua had sex.

And the American Historical Association doesn't give a flyin'-fuck what YOU think.

Prove it to them, or else be prepared for them to call the evidence only circumstantial.

And denigrate them all you like; but they're the ones who decide... not you.

[quote]No doubt you'll point to some DNA test from 1852

Are you fucking serious?

He was married to a much older Sally Fields, so I guess that makes him at least Bi.

R181 it has been proved to any reasonable person. The AHA is holding out because of political interference.

Yes, Dustin (authenticated), I'm serious.

Since when do real scholars depend on the American Historical Association? They're still fighting over how many times Nan Britton got into the White House during the Harding administration. When the AHA can't even keep up with more recent history for which there are records, R181, we can't expect them to know much about Abe Lincoln.

R180 you wacky ole queen--

I am talking about NOW.

NOW it is common knowledge and discussed.

I was not around way back when so don't know if they denied the affair or not.

But they sure blast this information to you now, on the Monticello tour and in all the books. Everybody knows this. Nobody is denying it NOW.

SO shut up girl.

You can be sure the historians in Alabama and West Vriginia are really up on this Jefferson slavegirl info. It goes along with their stories about Adam and Eve riding on dinosaurs. And that's what they teach in their schools NOW!!! Got that R187? NOW!!!!!!!!! So you can be sure they've got the Jefferson story 100% correct.

Lincoln was a bossy bottom.

WTF are you talking about, incoherent R188?

It is KNOWN that Jefferson boinked the slave girl and had kid(s)!!!

What more do you want? It's a fact.

Take the tour and see for yourself.

I have never been in Alabama or Miss. so I don't know what they teach there.

Do you really expect people to fly across the country to take a tour and then find out you made it up? We want written proof in this thread. Please provide the full proof, R190.

He never fucked me.

There is no "scholarship" - none- demonstrating Lincoln was straight. I doubt you could ever match his DNA with that of his children.

The claim that gays haven't "PROVED" Lincoln was gay stretches the notion of proof to something that would violate Heisenberg's uncertainty principle. In history there is no absolute proof ever, but there is more evidence of Lincoln's gayness than there is that Larry Kramer is gay.

[quote]there is more evidence of Lincoln's gayness than there is that Larry Kramer is gay.

It's a good thing.

It seems that most (suspected) gay historical figures were terrible people or did terrible things so I doubt Lincoln was gay.

That really makes a lot of sense R195. Lincoln wasn't nasty so he wasn't gay.

Are you still working on that GED or did you give up?

Well it's perfectly obvious that Lincoln took something up the ass.

Obviously there's a pattern, R196. Lincoln didn't fit that pattern.

Mary was cra cra