I don't think they were evil, just clueless. Brought up to believe they rules by divine right, they couldn't give that up even when it was clear that the people would revolt against them. Alexandra looked like a cold bitch. She was hated by the Russian people because she was German and the people thought she was a spy.
The last Tsar messed up when he dismissed Count Witte.
If he had taken the Count's advice regarding the Duma after the 1905 riots, all would have been fine and Russia would have had a British-style constitutional monarchy like the United Kingdom.
But it was not to be
The Russian autocracy was anachronistic by the 19th century and revolution was inevitable.
I read up on them when I was younger, and they seem to have been decent, kindly, loving people in their private lives.
But they had an absolute GENIUS for doing the wrong thing for the right reason, everything they did made someone hate them. I don't think they had a clue about the people they ruled, what they thought or what they needed from their government. Being a decent doesn't make someone a good ruler.
I've always thought that Nicholas II was the hottest monarch in history, so I feel bad.
Were novice assassins dispatched to execute the family? I read they were shot hundreds of times before they died.
People forget that Tsar Nicholas's grandfather was also shot in the late 19th century. Because of this Nicholas was raised very far from the city in pretty much isolation. He was so antisocial that his first meetings with Alexandra were incredibly awkward.
If he had taken a moment to give the poor of Russia the slightest crumb he wouldn't have been shot, but I'd imagine it never even occurred to him. Instead one of the poorest countries on earth went to war?
[quote] Were novice assassins dispatched to execute the family? I read they were shot hundreds of times before they died.
I believe they were shot from only a few feet away so there was a lot of bullets ricocheting. I'd imagine the guns weren't as good as today. And remember one daughter lived.
The assassins only nicked poor Alexei with a straight pin.
It was a power grab under the guise of saving the people. Death squads exterminated the old guard and replaced them with the new.
You don't allow monarchs to live in exile. Too many revolutionaries use them to create further havoc. They would have to die.
Hundreds of bullets: they had jewels sewn into their clothing for smuggling that deflected most of the bullets.
they were smashing! Cousins in fact
He was married to Judi Dench!!!!
Were they any worse than Queen Victoria? Did she give any more of a shit about the poor and minorities than they did?
I find it absolutely amazing that all of you faux historians pontificating here fail to even mention Russia's disastrous role in WWI as a critical factor in his overthrow.
My impression was that the Romanovs were truly ignorant of how the poor in Russia lived. They seemed to live like lavish hermits. Did they go out into society? Why weren't the daughters married?
I think the term "imperialism" is being thrown around rather loosely here. And "concern about minorities"? Please! This is not the USA in the 1970s, folks.
It was very much in Nicholas's self-interest to care about the poor and minorities, R15, and yes Russia does have minority populations. It was not only his responsibility as a ruler, he needed their support to prevent, you know, the bloody overthrow of his government and the execution of his family.
And R14, the girls weren't married because they came of age during a time of war and turmoil, and their parents could never find an appropriate time to thrown a coming out party worthy of a princess. So the girls never officially entered society, never met the young men considered suitable, and stayed at home with their parents. They seemed to be okay with it.
I think they were betrayed and treated very horribly, particularly the children, who were innocent.
Catherine Was Great
Alexandra, the Czarina, was a piece of work, and Nicky, her beloved husband, was a real pussy-whipped man.
The only language that Nicholas and Alexandra had in common was English. It was interesting reading their personal letters.
Watch the 1971 film "Nicholas and Alexandra" – it is on YouTube in its entirety.
Not perfect in historical accuracy but pretty close. Read about it on IMDB.
Then come back here and ask questions.
Nicholas and Alexandra is based on the Robert Menzie novel. And it is indeed a good film which really shows you the personal side of what they went through. Michael Jayston plays Nicholas, Janet Suzman plays Alexandra, and Tom Baker (later to play Doctor Who) is Rasputin.
Just as long as Westerners pronounce the name Romonov properly, I have no problem with them.
I agree with R21 about the movie. And the blu ray from Twilight Time is stunning.
They are saints.
That would be how, R23? RomanOFF or RoMANoff?
Nicholas and Alexandra were evil, heartless despots, who both got exactly what they deserved.
The kids, not so much.
It was a (rare) true love match, like Victoria and Albert.
The Romanovs were no better or worse than most of the monarchies at the time; ruling like it was the 19th century in the 20th century and not able to make the transition, much like Germany, Austria and almost GB. Unfortunately, the Romanovs thought they would be able to live in exile but without the support of their english relatives, they became a liability to all concerned and were butchered. Well, except for Anastasia.
Anastasia made it out alive, or so she claimed, until DNA outed her.
Nicholas & Alexandra is based on a biography -- not a novel -- by Robert K. Massie, who has also written biographies of Peter the Great (won the Pulitzer Prize) and Catherine the Great, as well as a two-volume history of the naval arms race between Britain and Germany in the years leading up to and including World War I: Dreadnaught and Castles of Steel.
They tried to do their duty, but they didn't have the mental equipment to know what that was.
Far from being insensitive to the charge that she was German, Alexandra made a fetish of Russian culture. No real German would have had much use for Rasputin, after all.
r23, it's ro-MAN-off. Russians emphasize middle syllables. I cringe when people call the author na-bo-KOV.
One of those Anastasia books says that the Tsar and a couple of his daughters were forced to service their captors regularly at the Ipatiev House. Nicky would be on all fours with one big Russian dick in his mouth and another in his ass.
R42 should be boots! I was breathing too hard as I fantasized.
The raping... I mean... the murder room.
R44! That was HOT!!!
And the story of Anastasia was also (very briefly) a Broadway musical called ANYA. It starred Constance Towers (Helene Constantine on General Hopsital), Michael Kermoyan, Irra Petina and Miss Lillian Gish. It lasted about a week but an album was recorded.
Directed by Mr. George Abbott, ANYA was billed as the 'musical musical.'
The HOME GOIN' Service!
Oh! Okay... the Requiem Service
Nikolay II was very wrong person to lead Russia and when he got the position as Tsar, he was afraid. He was a gentle father and husband, loved his family, and Russia, dearly, but couldn't make up his mind when needed to make decision, didn't understand or accepted to modernize Russia. He made lots of mistakes and was seen as brutal and old-fashioned leader of the country.
Alexandra was in many was stronger and more difficult person. She was deeply in faith, no nonsense person, adored by her husband and children, hated by most of Russian because they had no idea, who she really was. She never smiled in public, rarely was seen in public and she totally misunderstood the Russian people and society.
But all the problems began with Alexei, the Tsarevich, who had hemophilia from his mother's side. His illness brought Rasputin in and then everything went very wrong.
The second big problem was the isolation where the imperial family lived in Tsarskoje selo. They simply didn't understand the everyday life nor had any reliable information to it.
Add WWI and Russian's problems in it. Then hunger, Alix in power, and there it is, the power slipped away from Nicky and Alicky day by day, moment by moment in 1917, just slipped away.
R39 True, she was beautiful in her own way. But during the revolution she was only 45, but looked more like 65, because her son's illness aged her, she spent weeks by his bed, days and nights and afterwards it took her months to recover from it. It aged her very fast.
Very nice summary, R52.
One of the first families to have videotaped their life.
Filmed, R55. Videotape wasn't invented until the 1960s.
R56 You're right, my mistake, I meant filmed.
I have been inside the Tsar's private bathroom en suite at the Peterhof.
I bet you are green with envy ... oh yes, you are.
Hmm... R55, from your YouTube reference clip it appears as if Nicky was a short little thing. Well, that sort of detracts from the daddy image... BUT! I can still work with it! I just have to rework the fantasy!!! I am one who always thought he was a HOT man!!!
Great color photos of the Romanovs! They really show how good looking they were.
R1's breathtakingly inane, uninformed, stupid, misplaced and rattle-brained claptrap is a textbook example of the dangers of the internet and communication technology for unleashing ignorant know-nothings on the world at large. Whereas in the past these sorts of idiots would plague only their families and coworkers, they now can spew their arrogant silliness for the entire world to see, and inflate their smug doltishness to Olympian levels.
Shouldn't you be sharing slow cooker recipes somewhere, or trying to get that ass clean, rather than leaping into a topic about which you know nothing?
Of course you should.
Nicolas was an abysmal ruler, so inept that his reign brought down a 300 year old dynasty.
He was dominated by his wife Alexandra, who was a depressive and morbidly religious. She was more intelligent than him, though. It didn't matter; together, as Czar and Czarina, they brought ruin on Russia and themselves.
All that inbreeding on Alexandra's side of the family (Queen Victoria was her grandmother) produced the gene that gave Alexei, the precious heir to the Romanov throne, hemophilia. This resulted in Alexandra's total devotion to Rasputin, a debauched "holy man" with a reputed ten inch dick that he used with impunity. Supposedly used a form of hypnosis that would bring little Alexei back from the brink of death when he was suffering from the agonies of his hemophilia. Due to this, Alexandra did everything Rasputin told her to do (and made "Nicky" do likewise), which included suggestions on how to run the government and who to hire and who to dismiss. Anyone who dared criticize him was banished, including Alexandra's own relatives.
"Darling Boysy" and "Sunny" (they would refer to each other by those nauseating nicknames) were passionately hated by the Russian people and no wonder. People were starving and dying and the Romanovs were living in great luxury. The government was overthrown, the Romanovs were arrested and eventually were all assassinated in a cellar, shot hundreds of time at point blank range.
The Romanov children were innocents. But "Nicky" and "Sunny" were responsible for all of it. Their union, despite it being a love match, was an unqualified disaster.
All of that effort R61 and you don't correct the misstatements?
I've read that the family not only was out of touch with what was going on in the larger society, but they were different from previous ruling families in that they did not really associate with or socialize with the Russian nobility. It was just the seven of them and the servants (who died along with them). That sort of isolation is given to a complete lack of awareness, understanding, and knowledge of the greater world. And the one outsider who managed to penetrate the self-imposed isolation was a complete dipsomaniac shyster. Russia's highest society was appalled that Rasputin was accepted by the Romanoffs.
Nicholas was ill-prepared for the throne and was a weak character. His wife was a Victorian to her core, but lacked intelligence and became overly religious and mystical when she converted to Orthodoxy. She insisted the autocracy of the throne would save the dynasty and Russia, even when members of the imperial family were literally begging Nicholas to begin democratic reforms.
World War I ultimately destroyed Russia and the imperial autocracy was replaced by a new dictatorship.
R16, I agree about the minorities and the poor - r15 is obviously unaware of a little social uprising that happened in Russia about that time But do you really think the Romanov princesses needed to have coming out balls to meet suitable local young aristocrats to marry? They would have had marriages arranged for them with members of other European royal families!
Also, I'm not sure they would have had debutante balls in the same way as they did in England. They had a very different form of aristocracy in Russia.
R1 actually hits the nail on the head.
I haven't done that much investigation, but my sense from what I've read about the Russian imperial family throughout much of their history is that they were pretty much locked away from the rest of society. As r6 says Nicholas himself was raised in isolation away from the city.
Tatiana was interested in a young man, but WWI intervened. I can't remember his name or title. He seemed to have an interest in her. He gave her a dog. But he went off to fight in the war.
Even if they had held balls to present their daughters to society, there would be no eligible young men in attendance since they were all off in the war.
Arranged marriages with other European royal families would have been difficult due to being Orthodox. They would have been restricted to other Eastern Orthodox countries. But everyone was embroiled in the war. Even the girls themselves. The older ones served as nurses.
[quote]Nicky would be on all fours with one big Russian dick in his mouth and another in his ass.
Only after they removed the Fabarge anal beads...
Is that the cheap knockoff of Fabergé R68?
R67, past consorts had converted. They just had to go to some minor or relatively impoverished member of Germanic royal or princely house to find marriage partners as long as they converted.
Would males convert?
Read "The Last Tsar" by Edvard Radzinsky. He is a play write as well as an historian.
It is a fascinating and complex book. It is the best of biography, complex history mixed with theatrical staging and the most minute and personal details woven into a non linear recounting. He is a stylized and gifted writer.
There are clear motivations, but no clear conclusions. The Romanov's suffered their last years valiantly and with faith, but their fate probably could have been avoided. They accepted much of the suffering of their people as their spiritual domain. They did nothing to change it. Revolution was coming, but they may not have been slaughtered.
Radzinsky sets the stage and then blows it to pieces. He is an anti communist, anti imperialist Russian. Sentimental about some things, brutal about others, accepting of corruption as a way of life, not a lover of false prophets, but a believer in the supernatural and destiny. Great book.
Is R44 right? I've never heard that before.
R74 it is not true
It's in one of the biographies of Anastasia - I think maybe Peter Kurth's. The "big reveal" at the end is the sexual abuse the Romanov daughters and the Tsar suffered in Ekaterinberg, the Tsarevich and Tsarina were left alone, and I think one of the daughters - maybe Tatiana - was too.
The girls were probably going to marry below their rank. The parents were extremely close to their daughters and wanted them to stay in Russia. The oldest was brought to meet the Crown Prince of Romania but they barely spoke to each other at their awkward meeting. Queen Marie would have loved the match for her son, but the empress (who was Marie's cousin) wasn't enthusiastic.
@R76: It actually makes sense. Although I don't know about "modern" time but in ancient history male rape was quite common for the loser. The girls were most certainly pretty and the Bolsheviks quite drunk and disorderly often. Who would have stopped them? What consequences would or could they face?
damn 62 you really are misinformed about history
The girls never had a proper coming out party nor were they properly presented since there was war and the rumblings of a revolution brewing all around them during the tenure of those formative years. They stayed close to home and isolated. They did not date and there is no telling if they ever would have married. It would surely have been beneath them, though.
R79, in what way is R62 misinformed? As nearly as I can see, he is the only person in this thread to even come close to getting it right.
I respectfully disagree about the girls marriage prospects, R67. Romanov girls were married into European royal Houses quite often, regardless of the religion. Grand Duchesses married into the royal families of Austria, Great Britain, Mecklenburg, Sweden, The Netherlands, Wurttemberg, and Hesse. The only Orthodox marriages by Romanov girls were into the Greek royal family, although two Romanov Grand Dukes married Orthodox princesses from Montenegro.
Peter Kurth's biography "Anastasia; the riddle of Anna Anderson" was not about "Anastasia." He was always fascinated with the story of Anna Anderson aka "Anastasia"; he wanted to believe "the story", as it was called. His book is very biased towards that view. But as it was later proven through DNA testing, Anna Anderson was definitively NOT Anastasia. She was Franziska Schanzkowska, a polish factory worker with a history of mental illness. Kurth is rather unhinged about her being exposed as a fraud. He is convinced there is a conspiracy at work and won't accept the DNA findings as fact. Kurth seems to be a right nut case. I remember reading about him having a major hissy fit on a plane (he didn't like where he was seated and he couldn't find his laptop) and caused such a ruckus that he was actually removed from the plane and arrested.
There was another book written by a fervent, nutty Anna Anderson supporter named James B. Lovell, called "Anastasia: The Lost Princess." Lovell actually met the quite mad Anna Anderson, but he took just about everything she said seriously. She told him ALL of the Russian Royal family were gang-raped by the Bolsheviks, except for Alexei, the dying little Prince. She also told him that the Russian Royal family had survived the assassination and that their "exact doubles" had died in their place while they escaped on a train. Lovell didn't believe that; he figured she was just toying with him. But he believed damn near everything that came out of the mouth of the raving Anderson. Lovell even entertained the possibility that there was a FIFTH Romanov Grand Duchess whose birth was so disheartening to the heir-hungry royal parents that she was spirited away somewhere to live in anonymity for the rest of her life. By the end of the book I was convinced Lovell was as crazy as Anna "Anastasia" Anderson.
way overestimating Rasputins influence. also they were not really hated as much as he makes it seem. very complex story. also no one here has pointed out how there were 2 diff revolutions involved. the first was right the second was the famous one. the common people hated the aristocracy but not so much the czar. read trotskys book on the revolution to get a basic idea of what was going on.
"But do you really think the Romanov princesses needed to have coming out balls to meet suitable local young aristocrats to marry? They would have had marriages arranged for them with members of other European royal families!"
Arranged marriages were out by then, well, almost entirely. But since Nick and Alex married for love, it's unlikely that they would have wanted to force the girls into anything.
The official excuse for the girls' lack of participation in society was the weak "no debut party", but maybe it was more a matter of family isolation. As the pre-revolutionary situation got worse and the girls got older, it would have been sensible to send them to royal relatives abroad, where they'd be safe and they might meet a husband. But the Tsar and Tsarina didn't want to part with the daughters, and the girls didn't insist on going away. That family really did stick together, even when it was the wrong thing to do.
Someone researched the origins of Alexei's hemophilia, and looked at the family tree and the genetics.
The gene for hemophilia spontaneously arose in Queen Victoria herself, called "the Grandmother of Europe" because her children married into so many other royal families. There were other cases of royal hemophilia, but none were as disastrous as Alexei's. He was the only son of a house in peril, and his illness brought Rasputin into prominence.
And one of the things that was suggested to head off a revolution was that Nicholas abdicate in favor of his son. Nick couldn't do that because of his son's health, and the monarchy fell.
Who could have been a regent for Alexei if Nicholas had abdicated?
[quote]there were 2 diff revolutions involved. the first was right the second was the famous one.
This sounds familiar.
No way would Nicholas have allowed his daughters to marry below their rank. The Pauline Laws required all dynasts to marry equally or lose their succession rights. The growing chaos and instability from the war meant the girls did not get vetted for marriage very much.
Grand Duke Michael, Nicholas' brother, was next in-line after the Tsarevitch. When the Tsar finally abdicated on behalf of himself and his son, Grand Duke Michael proclaimed he would defer accepting the throne until the Russian people expressed their democratic will as to what form of government they wished to have. The Provisional Government fell to the Bolsheviks and the Romanovs were executed.
This thread is proving to be quite popular! Here's my question; Let's assume Russia revives the monarchy a la UK. Who (that is alive now) would inherit the throne?
r91 -- One of Grand Duke Vladimir's descendants.
What's crazy is this was less than 100 years ago....
Wasn't there like a few gay Grand Dukes or something?
I'll try to find the reference for my statement about the emperor willing to allow the daughters to marry unequally R90. I didn't make that up, I did read it.
The House Laws could be modified by the emperor, I'm sure.
Maria Vladimirovna is a morganaut. There is division as to whether she could succeed.
In pre-enlightenment Russia, royal princesses were not allowed to marry at all. The laws forbade them to marry outside their faith or below their rank, which ruled out every man in the world except their immediate family. So, medieval Russian princesses spent their entire lives in the palace women's quarters as virgins, unless they ran away with some guy.
By the 19th century, royal daughters were leaving home and marrying European nobility, and were presumably grateful for the privilege. Nicholas really should have sent his daughters to England or another safe place during the war, I guess he had no idea how dangerous things really were.
R70 & R82 - Could Alexandra's excessive religiosity played a role in this? I did read an account suggesting that marriage options were limited due to the war and religious considerations. It said that the girls were limited to Eastern European Orthodox nobility. It was a while ago, so I doubt I could find the reference.
[quote] Nicholas really should have sent his daughters to England or another safe place during the war, I guess he had no idea how dangerous things really were.
Leading back to the idea that Nicholas was exceptionally unintelligent and lacking historical perspective and common sense. His early isolation could have contributed, but someone with a more keen mind or curiosity would have investigated and/or pursued options. Did he? It's almost a perfect example of Darwinism in the highest echelons of society: too stupid to pass your genes on beyond the immediate. And that's how evolution works.
Except the stupid fucking Russian Orthodox church has declared the family saints, haven't they? If true, it will forever obscure Nicholas and Alexandra's complicity in their own downfall.
But they were "standard, normal" people unlike the gays that Russian society now actively and embarrassingly demonizes. (quoting that Putin-loving, pole-vaulting cunt whose name isn't worth recalling)
Didn't the Tsar reach out to several European royal houses (all Romanov relations) and they wouldn't take them in?
I'm specifically thinking of Germany and England but I could be remembering this incorrectly. It's been a long, long time since I read anything about the Romanovs.
Russia was at war with Germany so they weren't approached, but yes, the UK did demur hosting the Russian royal family in exile.
Of course the royal families of Europe would hesitate to take in a dethroned Tsar and his family and entourage, they'd be a huge expense, a magnet for trouble, and they'd always be asking to borrow your army.
But there would have been a big difference between an exiled Tsar in 1917, and a princess or two in 1912-1914. Having a princess as a guest doesn't cost much when you've already got royal apartments and servants lying around, unless you have to pay for their wardrobe.
Another carrier of hemophilia was Queen Victoria's youngest granddaughter, Prince Victora Eugenia (Ena), who married King Alfonso XIII of Spain. Two of their sons were hemophiliac, though not the father of King Juan Carlos.
The David Lloyd George government was reluctant to take in the Romanoffs because of their bad reputation, similar to that of the Shah of Iran in 1979. They did give refuge to the Tsar's mother, Maria Feodorovna, who was the sister of Britain's Queen Alexandra.
He should have sent his family away. He never really appreciated how bad things were getting. He also had an unwarranted belief that "the people" loved their Tsar and would never harm him or his children. Probably until the last 6 months of their lives, he simply believed that in the end, they would never harm his family.
Subsequently it's been revealed that Prime Minister Lloyd George took the fall for King George V (Nicholas II's first cousin) who gave the orders NOT to grant asylum to Nicholas II and his family.
When Nicholas II abdicated, March 15, 1917 there was a few weeks window of opportunity to be rushed out of St. Petersburg to Britain. One big factor against that was the daughters of Nicholas II all had a bad case of measles.
It was like the Titanic. Everything that could go wrong, went wrong.
All too often, the weaklings pay for the sins of their bad ancestors. The same thing happened to France's Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette.
bolshevics were jewish
that is all.
The people who knew Anna Andersen in Charlottesville believed she was Anastasia. She went to Charlottesville because Gleb Botkin was there, the son of the doctor that was killed with the royal family. According to him, they would get together and talk about times when the two of them were together in Russia. Rasputin's daughter Maria also said she was Anastasia.
R104 I think they felt the change after the second revolution and when communists began to think the future of Imperial family in Tobolsky.
R64 For some reason Alexandra isolated their family also from the Romanovs who were close and met often, until Alix decided differently.
R108, let's see am I going to believe that you can't fool some of the people all of the time or am I going to believe science and the DNA evidence?
R77 Some of them perhaps, but they must have been high positions in royal circles before WWI, four healthy young Rmanov women.
Olga had her debut in Livadia just before the war. Probably in 1913.
The war changed OTMA's lives.
I think the ghost or the spirit of Anastasia was inside this girl. So DNA might say one thing, but that spirit inhabited that body and "became" Anastasia. On this of all days, who is there to dispute me!
I think the Romanovs were tremendous!
r106, the similarities between Louis XVI/Marie Antoinette and Nicholas II/Alexandra are really astonishing.
As Kristin Scott Thomas said, in reference to her father and stepfather both dying in plane crashes: "The worst that could happen happens. And then it happens again."
R115 because the power grab was done by the same people
the ''revolutions'' are basically identical
You are correct. David Lloyd George WANTED the Romanovs in England. He knew this would be unpopular and might bring down the Windsors so Great Britain would become a republic. When Lord Stamfordham realized what D.L.G. was up to, George V stepped in and made sure the Romanovs would not be welcome.
I dated one, in France. He was quite the beauty.
If Nicholas has sent away his daughters it would have sent a terrible signal to the Russian people that the monarchy was in danger. Even the British princesses stayed in London during WWII.
I don't think George V truly thought they'd kill Nicky. He supposedly expressed deep regret about the decision not to rescue them for the rest of his life. If you look at photos of the two men they are like twins. It's extremely ery.
mamma insists that I am grand Duke Georgia Romanov and I am supposed to be tsar one day. Mamma is crazy. I don't want to be Tsar. I want to go to America and wear the tight blue jeans and dance the disco music.
If you don't consider anti-semitism and violently suppressing dissension evil, then, fuck, Nicholas and Alexandra were just fine.
Of course, that doesn't mean they should have been executed, let alone their children.
DLers ever heard of John Hercules and his service to the Court of the Tsar-Emperor Nicholas II?
An American with a fascinating CV.
their antisemitism was about not letting a rothschild bank into the country
as nathan rothschild said ''there is no friendship between me and the czar''
there is your ''revolution''
if none of these ''revolutions'' ever happened we would not have bank problems we have today.
cheer for your bankster overlords,suckers!
look up lincolns quote on banks and financial institutions.who do ya think whacked him?
the same reason they whacked gaddafi:he was printing his own money.
nobody ever helps ''ze people''
haven't you guys noticed how no one cares?
Their anti-semitism was not about letting a Rothschild bank into a country. It was about pogroms, the state-authorized beating and murders of Jewish people.
How old was Alexandra when she was executed? She looks like she's in her fifties/sixties in those pics.
[quote]The people who knew Anna Andersen in Charlottesville believed she was Anastasia. She went to Charlottesville because Gleb Botkin was there, the son of the doctor that was killed with the royal family. According to him, they would get together and talk about times when the two of them were together in Russia. Rasputin's daughter Maria also said she was Anastasia.
Anna Anderson must have had some fantastic intuitive ability and people skills to have pulled this off. Is there any chance she was one of the family's servants and that's how she had some of the knowledge? How a Polish factory worker made it to Russia is another matter...
Didn't an ear-point analysis of Anderson and Anastasia produce uncommonly close results?
Could it possibly be that the dna testing was deliberately skewed by those who stood to lose the most from her actually being Anastasia, like British and German royals?
What would they have to lose?
The British or German royals wouldn't have anything to lose.
R129 you idiots,the child would have a right to claim the money the western elite STOLE from the richesT man of the world-the czar of all russias.
the royals probably had part of it and also prevented claimants from getting any of the money.
ALL OF THAT 'REVOLUTION' AND MURDER WAS ABOUT MONEY AND POWER FOR WESTERN ELITE AND ROTHSCHILDS USING JEWISH BOLSHEVIKS!
just like what it is about in iraq iran etc.
The testing was done years after Anderson's death.
While she was alive she had tried unsuccessfully to get part of the Romanov fortune.
I don't know why it would be faked.
R117 - Where does that quote come from? It just isn't true that the people who knew her believed she was Anastasia. Some may have but not all.
As I remember quite a few people who knew thought she was nuts.
Anna Anderson couldn't speak Russian and looked nothing like Anastasia.
The couldn't speak Russian part might have been a giveaway.
R125 She was only 46. She looked old, because Alexei's illness took so much from her. She was always, and I mean always, worried about him, any minute he could have injured himself. When he was sick, she sat by her bed days and nights, slept just few hours and back to him. Afterwards she spent weeks in bed because she was languished. She aged fast and looked like older lady.
The difference between queen Victoria and czar Nicholas is that he held absolute power as ruler of Russia. Victoria was a figurehead.
Nicholas could have ushered in a host of democratic reforms that would have given Russia a stable base for the 20th century, but he was weak and clueless.
Alexandra was livid that Nicholas had given up some degree of absolute power. Her letters to him waver between sickly sweet-talking him and buttering up his ego, then urging him to demote, punish, and cut off errant family members...and to oppress the Russian people because they supposedly long for a strong hand.
Alexandra's deep unpopularity and worries about her judgment were one of the reasons other royal families were not interested in taking the Romanovs in. Many had tried to warn her about Rasputin but she would never listen.
[quote]Subsequently it's been revealed that Prime Minister Lloyd George took the fall for King George V (Nicholas II's first cousin) who gave the orders NOT to grant asylum to Nicholas II and his family.
It was actually Queen Mary who told the king not to allow it, lest the be brought down too.
R136 You pointed out some of the things which make Alexandra so fascinating. Why did she think the way she did? Why did she ignore all the warning signs she saw and people close to the family tried to tell and warn, including her mother in law Minnie with whom she didn't get along well. Nikolay and Alexandra went on and it is so difficult to understand they didn't see the revolution coming.
[quote]Subsequently it's been revealed that Prime Minister Lloyd George took the fall for King George V (Nicholas II's first cousin) who gave the orders NOT to grant asylum to Nicholas II and his family.
[quote]It was actually Queen Mary who told the king not to allow it, lest the be brought down too.
Not a lot of familial love or loyalty among the royals is there?
Both r137 and r139 need to read r117's post!
I met Prince Michael of Greece at a World Monuments luncheon. His Mother was the Czar's niece I believe. You can see him on Youtube in a fascinating documentary on the Royal Jewels. Re: Anastasia. He believes she was the child of a servant. but he did say if she was legitimate she would have had a proprietary claim on the family's money much of which was in Switzerland so nobody in the family wanted her to be legitimate. As far as anti semitism, just see Fiddler on The Roof. the Royal Families pogroms against the jews did spur the revolution, even if the Bolsheviks identified as atheists.
Anna Anderson had a much fuller mouth than Princess Anastasia. Look at the pictures of them and concentrate on the mouth, particularly the upper lip, and you'll realize they aren't the same person.
I agree that Anna must have had extraordinary people skills to fool all the old courtiers, she probably believed the story herself. Anna Anderson was covered with terrible scars, she must have had some terrible assault and trauma as a young woman. Maybe believing she was really a princess in exile was her escape from an unbearable reality.
Poor guy couldn't get a break. There were like 2,000 people who died in a stampede at his coronation.
I wonder if Rasputin really was hung like a horse. Assuming you could have given him a good Silkwood shower first would you have sucked him off?
Wasn't his penis. Wasn't even human. I think it was like a vegetable root or something.
I thought that "ear point analysis" that supposedly confirmed that Anna Anderson was Anastasia was hilarious. Who ever heard of someone who was identified by their EARS? It was just another desperate attempt to make it seem like she was Anastasia. She wasn't.
The supporters of Anna Anderson always insisted that the reason her claim was rejected was because of all the money at stake. Supposedly the Czar had millions hidden in the Bank of England; if Anna Anderson could prove she was Anastasia than all that moolah would be hers. Trouble was, no such bank account existed. To this very day there has never been any evidence, any proof, that Nicholas II ever had any money secreted away in the Bank of England. There WAS no money. So the belief of the "Anastasians" that poor Anna Anderson was shafted out of her inheritance because of evil people with designs on her fortune, is a crock of shit. There was no fortune to covet. So there was no reason for any conspiracy to keep Anderson from being recognized as the real Anastasia.
r47 Ears are actually a very distinct feature and hereditary. It's impossible to change them, except for surgically attaching them to the head when they stick out and that's a new procedure but otherwise, they are unchangeable.
That Anna psycho looked nothing like Anastasia. One doesn't even need science for that.
I think the thing to realize, is that we compare Russia to England and it was SO not. The Russians were some backward-assed people. There was no real Middle Class per se. I mean there was some but not much.
It was actually still operating a lot like a feudal state, with serfs and peasants and it was essentially an agrarian economy that was having a difficult time transitioning into the modern industrial age. Most of the peasants couldn't even read. To be educated was quite a thing back then in Russia.
In fact, I think industrialization is what eventually brought about the revolution. Alexandria was stronger and dominant in the relationship. Nicholas was a Mama's boy who was pussy whipped by his wife. He was weak and it led to his doom.
According to Robert Massie the Tsar recalled all of his personal millions at the start of the war. I don't believe it. I think at least some of the money was left behind and British bankers took it. The tsarist government did had millions stashed I. English banks however. The provisional government, then the soviets laid claim, but the funds were frozen for decades and eventually grew to over 100,000,000. Dollars. After the fall of the Soviet Union the Russian government tried to get the money, but it all got distributed to anyone who could make a claim for property seized by the soviets. Mainly heirs of those people collected. Supposedly, Alexandra told one of her servants in Tobolsk who didn't move with them to Ekaterinberg, that they were all going to England and they would not be poor becuase they had millions in English banks.
Like the Windsors, the Romanovs were mostly German. In fact, since the days of Catherine the Great (herself German), all Russian consorts were German. Part of the Empress Alexandra's unpopularity was due to the fact that she was from Germany, a country that was at war with Russia. This is similar to what happened to the French Queen Marie Antoinette, who was condemned as "that Austrian woman" at a time when France and Austria were at war.
The pogroms on the Czarist Russia were designed to allow Russians to redirect their anger from the Czar and their general shitty living situations.
The same thing is happening now in Russia, except the gays have replaced the Jews.
Regarding marriage prospects for the Grand Duchesses..
Olga and Tatiana did come out to society just as WWI occurred but most of the children's interactions with Russian society were through their aunts due to Alexandra's disdain of court life. The family also kept themselves isolated from society due to the secrecy of Alexis' disease. It was remarked even as adults, the oldest girls seemed much younger. From their teenage years on there were flirtations with naval and army officers and specific crushes were often commented on in the Tsar and Tsarina's correspondence. I remember reading a specific reference to one officer Alexandra actually liked and thought a suitable suitor for one of the girls.
Nicholas's sister Olga married a commoner after her first unsuccessful marriage so it was not unknown for Grand Duchess not to marry titled suitors and to marry for love. Marriages and divorces had to be approved by the Tsar. As Nicholas and Alexandra married for love, much against his parents wishes , they were predisposed to not having their daughters marry for political alliances.
I believe there was a prospect for Olga with a royal suitor and they even met but the meeting was awkward and it was quickly dropped. My memory is Olga expressed she was Russian and wished to remain in Russia.
Marie was the most flirtatious of the girls, wanted to marry and have a large family. There are indications of a flirtation during the final imprisonment with one of the guards, who smuggled a birthday cake to her and they were found in what was called a "compromising" situation, which contributed to some degree with the change of guards, who were felt to be too sympathetic to the family (the thought is the plans for execution was already in the works). Even a couple of the new guards refused to shoot the girls and were dismissed just before the execution.
Nicholas, Alexandra and Marie were the first family members to move from Tobolsk to Ekaterinburg. The other children followed once Alexis was well enough to be moved. While on the ship, the other girls may have been subjected to some kind of unrecorded "abuse" as the male servants were locked in their cabins but the Grand Duchesses' cabin was ordered unlocked .
Olga seems to have suffered Alexandra's fatalistic personality and was even more withdrawn afterwards.There are references specifically to something that may have happened while on the ship but the details seems to be lost to history.By all accounts throughout their imprisonment, the family, save for Alexandra, ultimately seemed to have charmed and eventually befriended their guards to some degree. Memoirs from the guards and entries in the remaining imperial diaries reference the girls visiting the guards and intervening on the family's behalf, a skill they grew up with. It was was often remarked they showed a lot of interest in the lives of the officers around them.
Royal cousin Lord Mountbatten was quite smitten with Marie and kept a photo of her by his bed for the rest of his life.
Rasputin's autopsy does not mention castration. No indication of poisoning etc. He was shot and bludgeoned to death, with the coup de grace a close range shot to the head.
Robert K. Massie worked with the references and source materials available at the time. Many of the stories regarding Rasputin are slowly being debunked (as with the Imperial family). New researchers are still discovering documents in the National archives which were previously inaccessible which contradict what was previously accepted as truths. The Kremlin archives are apparently overwhelming and I believe much of what relates to the Imperial family et al probably are still to be discovered.
R153 I have only read Olga's entering to social life in Livadia in 1911. I read Tatiana was the most popular member of the family.
OTMA's aunt came to Alexander Palace in Fridays and took the girls to St Petersburg on Saturdays, and they had lunch with their grandmother Maria in Anitskov Palace where she lived. Later one of Alexandra's ladies would pick the girls back to Tsarskoje Selo. Olga or Ksenia (cannot remember which one was the aunt taking them to the city) has told she remembered years later how Anastasia's laughter during their Saturday lunch, she was her goddaughter.
Actually I've read all the girls were stable and Olga was very much like his father, Tatiana was passionate like her mother.
The man who made a royal move to Olga was Carol of Romania.
I've read a lot of true crime novels, seen a lot of true crime documentaries. I've heard of people who have been identified by their fingerprints, their dental records, DNA, tattoos, scars, broken bones, metal implants. But I have NEVER heard of anyone identified by their ears! I guess if the ears were unusual in some way it would be possible, but the ears of the Grand Duchess Anastasia seemed to be quite average. I always thought it was ludicrous to present the argument that Anna Anderson had to be Anastasia because their ears supposedly looked alive. But then the supporters of Anna Anderson tended to be a very hysterical bunch. They simply WANTED Anderson to be Anastasia, despite there never being any real evidence to support her claim. They really did "want to fairy tale."
Olga was most like Nicholas in terms of personality and intellect but often demurred to Tatiana, who apparently was the natural leader among the sisters . The elder sisters trained at nurses and worked in the wartime hospital but Olga did suffer depression and fatalistic nature much like Alexandra's, was the most religious of the girls and grew closer to Alexandra in Ekaterinburg. Alexandra refers to her moodiness in letters to the Tsar and in her diary . She had previously had a bout of "exhaustion" in 1915 and apparently the strain of the nursing may have triggered a later breakdown of some kind. According to sources, in Ekaterinburg she became very thin and withdrawn.
When the family was separated, Marie was chosen to travel with Nicholas & Alexandra. The decision was based on Tatiana's natural leadership and ability to manage the remaining household, Olga was needed to help look after the ill Alexis and Anastasia was thought to be too young and also would be there to keep everyone's spirits up so Marie was the one chosen to go with N&A. Marie apparently was also a bit possessive of Nicholas' attention and would be jealous when he walked alone with Olga.
Alexandra's diary says:
"Marie comes with us, Olga will look after Baby, Tatiana the household & Anastasia will cheer all up."
Marie was the most flirtatious of the girls and ostracized by Olga and Alexandra to some degree following the birthday incident. The girls were encouraged to fraternize with the guards in order to try to gleam information throughout their captivity.Nicholas's diary indicates Marie was sent twice to try to gleam any information about their eventual destination but there remains a lot of mystery surrounding the trip and even the guards apparently were not sure.
Due to the notoriety of Anna Anderson, Anastasia became the daughter whose personality was the best "known" and often contradictory memories color specific incidents and sometimes attributed incidents to her such as having her finger crushed in a door,which memory says actually happened to Marie as a child. I believe some of the remaining diaries of the Grand Duchesses have yet to be translated or published. Alexandra burned many of her diaries and letters and I would assume the Grand Duchesses did also.
[quote]She had previously had a bout of "exhaustion" in 1915 and apparently the strain of the nursing may have triggered a later breakdown of some kind. According to sources, in Ekaterinburg she became very thin and withdrawn.
Being raped in transit to Ekaterinburg as speculated in one of the posts above could have been enough to put a sheltered, religious girl in that state.
gleam = glean
The House of Special Purpose, the Ipatieff home in Ekaterinburg where the executions took place, has been torn down and church has replaced it on the site.
This occurred during the Yeltsin years.
The Ipatieff family produced Vladimir who fled Soviet Russia in the 1930s and wound up at Northwestern near Chicago as an esteemed professor of chemistry.
Vladimir's innovations in petroleum refining and octane research are the cornerstone for modern refinery operations even today.
You learn something everyday here at the DataLounge, eh?
People used to say the Romanovs' Russia was an 18th Century dynasty attempting to function in a 20th Century world. Nicholas was prosecuting an unpopular war with the Japanese over Korea and Manchuria, against the advice of many of his top advisors. It was costing a lot of $$$, and unrest was building.
He was a very stubborn and contrarian person. Oddly, cowed by his wife and his mother, and at the same time digging in and contradicting their advice and suggestions. He seemed to need to prove he was his own man and strong enough to be a king.
The other thing is that he and the family did visit the British Royal family in 1908. So they made visits out of the country, but probably not after he found himself on the wrong side in international politics.
As his son's health worsened,he was also overwhelmed by events at home. His wife and that damned religious fanatic didn't help matters. Au contraire.