- She was probably like a Jessica Alba.
- OMG, OP.
99.9999% of the public never heard of Sharon Tate until they read her obituary.
- Scarlett Johansson
- She would have been considered as C or D list. I'm sure plenty of people who worked mostly in TV at time knew her or knew of her.
- She was on par with:
- Minka Kelly.
- Well, wasn't Sharon Tate in "Valley of the Dolls?"
She was known. Her husband, Roman Polanski, was better known. He had just directed "Rosemary's Baby."
They weren't Brad and Angelina, but they were known.
- They also describe her as "actress Sharon Tate" when describing her murder. If people always need to be told she was an actress, she was hardly a household name. I think she might have broken through in another year or so, she was beautiful. Maybe she would have gotten a series.
- [quote]Diane Krueger
Shar was more Fred, less Diane.
- I think at the time she was best known for being Polanski's wife. He'd just found mainstream fame after doing Rosemary's Baby and was becoming a hot commodity in Hollywood.
If she'd lived she would have had her son, probably stopped acting and supported Polanski for a time, split from him at some point and become a Bev Hills divorcee/housewife. Would have aged nicely, if her great looks were any indication, and re-made her career in 80s television a la Joan Collins or Linda Evans. Tate would have made a perfect Krystal Carrington.
- No. She was what would have been called a starlet.
- Roman was already cheating on pregnant Sharon.
- Nice try, r7. She was in Valley of the Dolls. She was married to Roman Polanksi.
- " I think she might have broken through in another year or so, she was beautiful."
Nothing stops an actress from breaking through like a new baby. Really, she was a sweet, beautiful woman who'd done some leading roles but hadn't broken through to stardom, and she'd married "well" and had gotten pregnant.
That made her exactly the sort of person that Hollywood was (and is) prepared to dismiss. There were new girls in town.
- Most bizarre Hollywood crime/murder ever. I can't even imagine something like this happening today to the likes of a Jessica Alba or Kate Bosworth. Freaky for those times and still freaky now.
- Very few people knew who she was, I remember that few people recognized the name.
- She was not famous enough to be considered A list.
Being in Valley of the Dolls didn't make her A list. Valley of the Dolls was her only big role in a movie that was widely seen. For that matter Barbara Parkins wasn't A list either.
Being married to Polanski? That didn't make her A list either. She died one year after Rosemary's Baby came out. Rosemary's Baby was Polanski's first major American film. Polanski is now more famous both in the U.S. and arguably even internationally than he was in 1969.
Polanski is now married to Emmanuelle Seigner. He has been married to her for 24 years. They have two children together. As an actress, Seigner has a resume much more impressive than Tate's. And that is a;n understatement. She has had leading roles in Polanski films including Frantic, opposite Harrison Ford, and Bitter Moon, with Hugh Grant, Peter Coyote and Kirstin Scott Thomas.
And no one would consider Emmanuelle Seigner A list.
As far as whose current career fame would approximate Tate's 1969 career fame, I would think it would be someone who has appeared in one big movie and has some connection, marital or familial, to someone is show business.
As to her celebrity analog of today, maybe Rashida Jones.
- Remember when Gwyneth Paltrow was "that girl who is dating Brad Pitt"?
She was like that.
- The camera loved her.
- I'm thinking maybe Paula Patton in 2013 would be approximate to how well-known Sharon Tate was in 1969.
Patton is Robin Thicke's wife and has been in a handful of movies (Mission Impossible from a few years back was her biggest role) and she's kind-of sort-of well-known to people who are under 40, but not really most people who are older than that. Sharon Tate was way before my time, but this is just my theory about how well-known Tate may have been back then.
- She and Polanski were considered an "in" couple; he was a hot ("hot" as in successful) young director and she was his gorgeous wife. So they were very sought after; people wanted to be in their company.
If Tate had lived chances are she would have abandoned her career to concentrate on being a mother. She and Polanski would have no doubt divorced somewhere down the line. She might have had some more roles in movies and tv here and there later on. But she didn't strike me as being a particularly talented actress. If she worked really hard, could she have become very good? Who knows? But with that face and body she would have had a hard time being taken seriously, no matter how accomplished an actress she might have become.
- R17, Emanuelle also starred in Polanski's "The Ninth Gate," and did a wonderful job.
- This is a beautiful coffee table book on the timeless beauty of Sharon Tate. It includes many remembrances from celebrities who knew her. Best part..nothing about murder or Manson.
- A list back then had to be Liz and Dick, Mia and Frank, Jane Fonda, Beatty, etc.
Sharon hung with what I'd consider the coolest people in Hollyweird - The Mamas and the Papas, The Doors, the Peyton Place crowd etc. Someone should do a Mad Men type series about LA in the mid to late 60's.
- Not sure about getting that Sharon book, despite the reviews. I don't like fawning propaganda pieces. I am tempted though...
- One thing that has always haunted me. If Marilyn hadn't died in 1962 and still lived in that little bungalow she had, in 1969, would the Manson family have come after her instead?
- She was known for her looks more so than her acting talent."Starlet" was probably the most accurate description.
- R24- Yes a spin off of MadMen w/Megan living in the Canyons..
- They already did a film about it. SHAMPOO. Goldie Hawn played Sharon.
- The fact that she was a piss poor actress also probably kept her from the A list.
- There was a lot of fear among celebrities that they were being targeted. I remember reading a bio of Steve McQueen that said he started carrying a gun after the Tate murder. However, I am not aware of any actual "celebrity death lists."
However, I have also heard that Manson was actually targeting Terry Melcher (Doris Day's son) who was a music producer, and who had previously lived at that house - Polanski bought it from Melcher a few months before the murder. The theory is that Brian Wilson (Beach Boys) introduced Manson to Melcher. Manson wanted to be a rock star. Melcher either got weirded out or Manson was a no-talent (or both) and Manson was trying to get revenge, and didn't know Melcher had moved.
I don't consider myself particularly knowledgable about the
Manson murders, so I might be wrong.
And I cannot speak to Sharon Tate's position in the galaxy of stars, as I was but a gleam in my father's eye at the time.
- R31 You are correct on all counts
- R3, you may not like her, but Johansson is way more famous and definitely A-list than Tate ever was. She's been in Academy Award-winning/-nominated films and several blockbusters and, more importantly, the average Joe knows who she is.
- You have to remember 1969 had no Internet. Being married to an up-and-coming director was not a ticket to fame. The public wasn't bombarded (as they are today) with photos of XYZ-list nobodies appearing daily on one red carpet after another - so much so, that in the minds of the public they must be A-list, because they're photographed so much.
- They also had telephones, television, and video filming equipment. They no longer relied on pony express.
- Scarlett Johansson is not vacant enough to be a true star. A true star is empty headed, allowing the public to project its dreams onto your image. Sharon Tate certainly qualifies as a star because we have very little to go on where her inner life is concerned.
- Not Brian Wilson, R31, Dennis. Dennis picked up a couple of the Manson girls hitchhiking on Sunset, had a threesome - the next thing he knew, the whole Family had moved in, were eating him out of house and home, and he had to bail and abandon the house to them in an effort to escape them.
Gail Zappa remembers Charlie and the creepy girls on the far fringes of the Laurel Canyon scene. They had a dirty, creepy vibe, but due to the accepting and loving nature of the scene then, few predicted their senseless and crazy killing spree.
Many think the Manson killings involved retribution for drug deals gone bad (maybe the hairdresser). Who knows?
- r35 They also had telephones, television, and video filming equipment. They no longer relied on pony express.
Yes, back in 1969 I was constantly running to my black rotary on the kitchen wall waiting to hear the latest gossip from Hollywood.
- R36, I don't know WTF you're talking about "empty heads" and "projecting dreams." A star, plain and simple, is someone who is very successful in their industry (i.e. film, music, television) and well-renown. Johansson certainly qualifies because, as I said, she's been in Oscar-nominated films and blockbusters -- the former which gains her respect from esteemed directors and her peers, and the latter which makes her a household name and an asset to studios. I don't know any other definition of a star.
Tate was not a star by any means when she died. She had done some TV and starred in a badly panned movie, but had not done anything of note. She only gained notoriety after her grisly death, and, like many people who've died young (whether famous or not), we will always speculate about her future, but not because she was some A-list actress.
- We just have a different philosophy about what a star is, r39. There's no need to be hostile. It's all a psychic construct anyway.
- [quote]We just have a different philosophy about what a star is
No, you're the only person who thinks that. A star means fame. That's all.
I can't believe how long people entertained OP. No, she was most definitely not A-List. She was C/D-List, (depending on the specifics of one's definitions).
- Thanks, r37.
Also, I didn't quite make clear my point regarding the "if Marilyn had still been alive" poster. I'm not sure that it's clear that they were targeting celebrities in that way.
Has anyone asked any of the imprisoned family members if they have any theories (other than "Charlie told us to")?
- I was a teenager when Tate was murdered. It was a very big deal, the event was. But as has been mentioned here, news reports had to remind everyone who Sharon Tate was.
She was murdered in '69. Up until that time, her only really significant acting role was in "Valley of the Dolls" which was from 1967. In between "Dolls" and her death she only did one other film and it was not a much of a success. She really was not on the public's radar.
Unlikely. Manson knew the Cielo drive property as he had been there several times previously when the previous tenants (Doris Day's son Terry Melcher, Candy Bergen) had rented the place from Rudi Altobelli) had resided there. Tex Watson had been there as well. The house was chosen because 1) they knew the property 2) it was isolated 3) it is believed that Manson wanted to scare Melcher by choosing the place in which he had once lived
Marilyn's place over in the Helenas was not isolated even back then. There are houses on the entire street. Loud noises would have been heard and from where quickly determined. Marilyn's neighbors saw daily who was going in & out of there. Many of the houses now on Cielo Drive were NOT there 45 years ago and were built afterwards.
I've been to both properties. Sharon's nearest neighbor in 1969 was further down the drive, off from the annexed cul de sac which led to 10050, now numbered 10066 with the new house built there.
1) Polanski rented the house, as did Melcher. again, it was owned by Rudi Altobelli who died about 2 years ago.
2) Also, there was a death list of sorts. Susan Atkins told of the celebrities who the family had wanted to target. Among those included: Taylor & Burton, Doris Day, Steve McQueen, Sinatra & Tom Jones.
- R42 Have you ever read Helter Skelter? That book can give you some scary insights regarding Manson and company .
- She also did an episode of Beverly Hillbillies
- r41, don't you DARE try to impose your vacuous definitions on ME!
- R44 As always, Kelt, you are a wealth of knowledge and information, and I thank you
- [quote]Re: Was Sharon Tate considered A-List back in 1969 ?
Sharon was married to an up & coming A-list director who the year before had been nominated for an Academy Award for 'best screenplay' (for) ROSEMARY'S BABY. Sharon herself, at 26 was still a 'starlet'. Her participation in VALLEY OF THE DOLLS gave her the most name recognition.
I remember when the murders occurred and my mother & babysitter were discussing it in the kitchen that summer. Everyone was talking about how Tate was 8 months pregnant. I recall my mom telling the babysitter in vague terms she saw her in VALLEY OF THE DOLLS and that she was married to (Polanski) the guy who'd directed ROSEMARY'S BABY but that was about it; not some big name recognition with a list of credits etc, nor anything else about her.
Sharon was on more than 1 episode of THE BEVERLY HILLBILLES.
Sharon was in two episodes in late 1963 with her blonde hair showing. On 1 she played a potential schoolmate of Elly May's "Who whipped that up for you Cynth ?" ; on the other she danced the twist with Jethro in The Garden Party epidode "Hey, Doris look !!"
Following that she had a semi-regular role for 2 seasons playing Miss Hathaway's beautiful assistant Janet Trego. Sharon wore a dark wig when she played Janet. Her last appearance being on an episode shot in the Spring of 1965 that aired that fall.
- Thanks K -- I remembered only the dance with Jethro. I didn't realize she was Janet T as well.
- Here's a clip of Sharon as Janet Trego on THE BEVERLY HILLBILLIES.
- [quote]Someone should do a Mad Men type series about LA in the mid to late 60's.
Call it "Paranoia Strikes Deep."
- No, she was not A List by any means, but she was a known starlet & widely considered to be very beautiful.
I'd say her closest counterpart today would be ScarJo.
- Arguably, Sharon was Polanski's prototype for Nastassja Kinski, who ended up starring in his greatest film.
- R54, she was in no way in ScarJo's league. For one, she's no longer a starlet and hasn't been one for a decade. A starlet is a young, aspiring actress who hasn't yet achieved fame/success. ScarJo has had several hit films and won a Tony, not to mention she's famous and not just in the US.
Tate didn't have anything like that, just a couple TV credits and the third lead in hit but panned film, but not much else. She was probably better known as the new wife of an up-and-coming director (Polanski) than as an actress.
I don't see how people are comparing the two. Their beauty, yeah, but their careers were at different levels.
- Thanks, Kelt! You know your stuff!
I did read Helter Skelter a loooooonnnng time ago. But un/fortunately, I have had most of that info replaced in my brain since then. (Or, as Homer Simpson said, "Lisa, I didn't need that fact in my head! Now I can't remember who won Bud Bowl 8!")
- The day before she was murdered, maybe one person out of 1,000 could have picked her out of a lineup. Maybe one.
- Boobies Boobies Boobies.
- No, R55. People know who Scarjo is. When Tate died, most people wondered who that was. She wasn't a standout in anything she ever did. I remember seeing photos of her and not remembering her.
People knew who Polanski was because of Rosemary's Baby, but that didn't give her automatic fame.
Fame was different in the pre-pap days. Now she would be pushed in everyone's faces but not then.
- You meant to address your post to R54, R60. And you're right.
- Thanks, R61.
- Blurb about the new book from IN STYLE .....
- The Manson Family wasn't after Sharon Tate, or any other Hollywood blonde. She was just unlucky enough to be in that house.
- I'd say a good steady C+. It's sad but it really was her death and the way she died that made her famous forever in the World's memory.
- r63, I can't believe what I'm reading.
[quote]As beautiful and she was kind, actress Sharon Tate left an indelible mark on the world.
They forget to add the reason why...
- I think had she lived she would have been good in something like Charlie's Angels, no pun intended. She could have done Farrah's part. Whether or not she had any real acting talent the way Farrah did and gone on to something more we'll never know.
- What is it with the Polanskis? Vampires, witches, Satan?
- I just saw that photo of Joan Collins at the Polanski Tate wedding and it hit me... Sharon could have been Krystle Carrington on Dynasty! Like Linda Evans, Sharon had that sensitivity everybody raves about but street smarts to go with it.
- As R60 wrote "Fame was different in the pre-pap days. Now she would be pushed in everyone's faces but not then".
You have to remember that there was no "Entertainment Tonight" style television back then. No reports from the red carpet. No "lifestyles" fluff.
There were the talk shows and the weekly newstand magazines, but not much else to promote yourself.
- The life of a starlet...
- [quote]I just saw that photo of Joan Collins at the Polanski Tate wedding and it hit me... Sharon could have been Krystle Carrington on Dynasty!
YES! YES! YES!
- Back then people and kids were not familiar with the names of directors unless they were established like Hitchcock. He had one hit film. The average person didn't know him either at the time of the murders. They knew Mia Farrow from the film. The only director I can remember in the 70s that had some name recognition with the general public after one hit film was Spielberg after Jaws. I don't remember the general public knowing who Polanski really was until the murders. There weren't all the tabs, entertainment shows, and magazines that exist now to publicize stars and movies. No news channels looking for filler. A few mags and Ron Barrett, all focused on Mia, her short hair, and Frank Sinatra. I think in hindsight we are overestimating Polanski's name recognition with the general public at the time.
- R56 & R60: For clarification, my comparison to ScarJo was based not only on looks (she & Sharon are/were both beautiful), but also, I could have seen Sharon's career as having the same trajectory as ScarJo's...
- Um... Who is Ron Barrett?
- If Sharon Tate had been A-List, she'd have left a star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame. As it happens, all she left in life was a rug stain.
- Sorry, Rona Barrett. She had gossip mags in the 70s.
- R77: And a TV show!
- Oh! I remember her - she guest starred on Moonlighting, right?! (Rona Barrett, not Sharon Tate.)
- Rona Barrett had a 60 sec spot on the 10PM news in NY -- channel 5, WNEW. Back then it was gossip, who's dating who, who's divorcing who. Directors were not mentioned.
Known directors in 1969:
Orson Welles, Hitchcock. Performers also directors Mike Nichols and Charlie Chaplin. David Lean, Fellini and Francois Truffaut got enough press in the 60s to be known.
- Remembering all of the things we DIDN'T have back in 1969 (Internet, social media, etc.), how DID we ever find out about things?
Newspapers had "standards"; magazines had news that was as much as one month old; TV news consisted of one-half hour nightly on ABC, NBC or CBS; radio played a much bigger part in our lives; movies were released as first-run in NY and LA and sometimes didn't play elsewhere for up to 4-6 months.
My head hurts.
"Flora, it's a nation-wide hook up!"
- I think Polanski had some slight name recognition, but only because his movie starred Mia Farrow and she was a favorite of gossip columnists at the time.
If I'm not mistaken, wasn't Rosemary's Baby the movie Sinatra demanded that she not make but she did it anyway? They ended over it. She was well rid of that little shitstain.
- The day the murders were discovered Rona Barrett got the 'heads up' from someone she knew with connections & drove over to Sharon Tate's house. She had met the starlet and knew who she. Rona hovered around the entrance gate with others from the media. She was there when Bill Tennant who was Polanski's business manager was being escorted by police from the property after he'd identified the bodies. (Of course he couldn't identify the boy in the car, Steve Parent.) As the ashen faced Tennant was leaving exiting the newsmen pummeled him with questions. It was apparent from Bill Tennant's demeanor that something horrible had happened to those inside. Rona Barrett walked right up to him and asked, "Was it 'really' Sharon ?" Tennant turned on her and intoned, "Don't Be An Ass !"
- [quote]If I'm not mistaken, wasn't Rosemary's Baby the movie Sinatra demanded that she not make but she did it anyway? They ended over it. She was well rid of that little shitstain.
Sinatra had her served on the (ROSEMARY'S BABY) set at Paramount with divorce papers. He wanted her to walk off of that production so that she could be in his movie, THE DETECTIVE. Early word from the rushes was that the performance that Polanski was getting out of her was going to win critical acclaim & Mia didn't want to be unprofessional and just walk off. Sinatra usually wanted his way all of the time or he'd cut you off, which he did to Mia for being, in his eyes disobedient.
- Maybe Mia was fortunate and her "disobedience" kept her from being beaten.
- [quote] There was a lot of fear among celebrities that they were being targeted. I remember reading a bio of Steve McQueen that said he started carrying a gun after the Tate murder. However, I am not aware of any actual "celebrity death lists."
I remember hearing about that. Also Steve McQueen's first wife Neile Adams was interviewed for the Sharon Tate/Manson Family E! True Hollywood Story in 1999 and she said the same thing about Steve carrying a gun. She also mentioned that several celebrities were hiring night security guards and guard dogs.
- From Kelt's post at R44:
Also, there was a death list of sorts. Susan Atkins told of the celebrities who the family had wanted to target. Among those included: Taylor & Burton, Doris Day, Steve McQueen, Sinatra & Tom Jones.
There is the story that Sinatra got furious at one actress he was dating the mid-60s, a year or two before Mia Farrow, and threw her face first through a sliding glass door. The woman allegedly required plastic surgery from the assault.
This allegedly occurred during a dinner party at his house in Palm Springs. He was in a foul mood and picking on her throughout the night; criticizing her acting abilities and saying demeaning things about her all during dinner. Finally, the actress had enough and said something back at which point Sinatra came over, grabbed her by the back of her neck and threw her into the sliding glass doors that led out to the patio.
Those present kept their mouths shut, though I've been told that more than one began to distance themselves from him afterwards.
Yes, Atkins went into gory detail about what the 'family' wanted to do to a handful of celebrities. I recall that Atkins claimed that Manson had taught her how to gorge out an eyeball and that she wanted to do so to Elizabeth Taylor while Richard Burton would be castrated. No point in going into all of it. Bottom line is that most of those who became part of the Manson family were fucked up, sick.
- Frank Sinatra is a good example of Hollywood providing ignorant Americans with sociopathic reptilians for us to worship. His talent had pretty much evaporated by the late '60s.
- Not really, R91. Sinatra was ugly but in good voice. It fell apart in 1974.
- A sister of mine went to a Sinatra concert on his last tour. She wanted to experience hearing the legend in a music hall. She said that it was obvious his voice was gone but that the older women in attendance who must've grown up decades earlier when he was a hot sensation were enthralled.
- I remember when the stories came out about Sinatra's widow keeping anyone from visiting him as his health deteriorated.
People felt so sorry for him but I kept thinking it was pure karmic justice. She did nothing to him that he didn't or wouldn't do to others.
I hated him for how he treated Ava Gardner. She made him crazy because he couldn't own or control her.
- The whole of Hollywood was supposed to have been at that house that night.
- How does Tuesday Weld figure into all of this? What year did she turn her back on Hollywood?
- She got fat.
- It's true that Sharon Tate was not a star until after her death. What the hell!? She made only five or six films plus Beverly Hillbillies and some other tv work. I don't think it's fair to say she didn't have any talent. What I see is an amazing screen presence and vulnerability.
Her best film was "Eye of the Devil" with David Niven. Valley of the Dolls though panned by critics, was a huge commercial success for Fox in 1967. The public was just starting to realize Sharon and then she was murdered. That being said, Hollywood knew her very well and she hung with, partied with some of the biggest A-Listers.
She was one of the most photographed women in the sixties and a fashion icon. I'm glad to see people are starting to appreciate the woman she was besides being just a victim.
To me, Sharon Tate paid the biggest price for the fame she has achieved. Her timeless beauty will go on capturing people.
- She played good comedy opposite Dean Martin in "The Wrecking Crew."
- On her way up to the C-List, Sharon used to date the actor Max(?), who played Jethro on the Beverly Hillbillies.
Jethro got her several mini-roles on the Beverly Hillbillies and here is a sample. Sharon is wearing a black wig.
- In the late 60's Doris Day's son Terry Melcher, then a record producer, met Charlie Manson though through his friend Beach Boy Dennis Wilson. Manson failed a recording audition with Melcher and Melcher later canceled a documentary he had planned to make about him. Melcher and Wilson had become aware of some of the unsavory things going on a Manson's ranch and they cut off contact with him.
When Manson sent his followers out commit the murders, he sent them to Melcher's residence on Cielo Drive. I've read conflicting accounts whether Manson was aware that the house, a rental property, was no longer occupied by Melcher. Melcher was terrified afterwards, hiring bodyguards and dropping from sight, like a number of Manson's former Hollywood acquaintances.
- Do we really have to go over all this old news as if it were breaking stuff? R40, we know all that. Don't bore us if you have nothing new to add to the conversation.
- Max Baer, Jr. played Jethro.
- R100 Max Baer stated in an interview that he never dated Sharon Tate. He said and I quote "she was out of my league and besides she was dating French actor Philip Forquet." He had absolutely nothing to do with Sharon's working on "Beverly Hillbillies" either. Sharon was signed by producer Martin Ransohoff to a contract with Filmways (they produced the show). Her agent Hal Gefsky.
You made your point about how important you think Sharon Tate was by your C-List comment. But then why should anybody give a fuck what you think because you don't even know of what you write!?? Ho Hum!
- I free with the C+, mostly on Valley Of the Dolls.
Panned or not, it was a box office smash and Tate was on the cover of every magazine in the country.
- [quote]Max Baer stated in an interview that he never dated Sharon Tate. He said and I quote "she was out of my league and besides she was dating French actor Philip Forquet."
How refreshing -- unless this was right after the Cielo Drive murders and Max was scared.
- Actually, R104, you once again have your head up your ass and are wrong. But do us all a favor and keep it there.
- R107 Actually you are the one with your head stuck in de butt. I say pull it out and get a breath of fresh air. When it's clear do a little research and then the next time you post something maybe it will be factual and not contrived from your oxygen starved brain.
- The numbering is off so I do not knw what r82 and r83 are fighting about.
- She was more like a Kardashian.
- R110 ya think? Nobody likes the Kardashians. Everyone who ever knew Sharon loved her.
- When the news spread that she'd been murdered, most regular people didn't have a lot of sympathy.
From they gathered from the news, she was part of the decadent 'hippie jet set' crowd, and Hollywood/entertainment people in general were frowned upon by God-fearing average Joe's.
A lot of (semi) famous people, immediately tried to make themselves part of the story, by blabbing how they had been invited to a party there, but had fortunately 'missed out'.
Also the police said that the crime scene indicated a 'ritualistic killing' and most people assumed there had been some acid-inspired 'Satanic ritual', so the general verdict was: "Live freaky, die freaky'.
When it came to light (a couple of months later) that the Manson family was responsible, the public opinion towards the victims changed.
- R71, was that done after the murders? It's hard to tell. The narrator talks in the present tense, but the director talks in retrospect.
- Well for some reason, all the asshole in the country, seems to watch the Kardasians, I don't know why.
I was comparing their talent...anyway, I never thought of her as a star, I knew she was beautiful.
- in this new book written by Sharon sister did they mention anything about Patty Duke?
- Her husband was very much A list.
- To R108, and to EVERYONE ON DATALOUNGE WHO LIKES TO SEE THE LIES OF A QUEEN REVEALED, let's take a look at this video of Max Baer talking about going out on dates with Sharon Tate.
R108, you are a fucking asshole. You come here to DL to lie and to make yourself sound and feel important when in real life you are nothing but a minimum wage shop girl typing on an old Commodore computer. You sicken me with your mental illness.
That featurette was made during production of EYE OF THE DEVIL (originally titled 13) back in 1966, 3 years before Sharon's murder.
If you watch the clip below, you will Max Baer Jr. say that he did go out with Sharon a few times.
My understanding was that they dated a couple of times but that she wasn't interested in going out with him any more & that was that.
- For the people going on about the general public not knowing who Sharon Tate was back then, I beg to differ, I was a small kid when she was murdered, my parents sure knew who she was.
It was front page news, her death made the cover of The New York Daily News, which was actually a much better paper years ago, not like the sensationalistic rag it's become.
I guess Sharon was better known in big cosmopolitan cities? I'm a native New Yorker. MY LA relatives also knew who she was.
As others have stated here, there was no Internet back then, news was not as immediate as today, but many were still quite aware who ST was. My parents were also into foreign films, which meant they knew Roman Polanski from his early sub-titled films, "Knife In the Water" etc, which were shown on PBS in NY.
My mom was an avid consumer of gossip and fashion magazines, Sharon was featured in both.
Celebrity culture was much different back then, it also didn't ovelap as much as it does today. You'd rarely see a movie star on the Tonys or on the Grammys.
As someone mentioned herw, there wasn't this huge overkill of 'celebs' on red carpets, the people who did show up at red carpet events had some sort of actual career going on, there weren't all these reality show nothings and lollipop heads, like Guilana Rancic, who think they are celebrities just because they interview celebrities, it was a whole different world back then.
- R120, it looks like you were the exception, what with having parents who indulged in foreign films and living in a cosmopolitan city and a mother who read gossip/fashion magazines. I'm not surprised you heard of her and probably other starlets of the era.
But the truth remains, the average American had no idea who she was, and by average I mean people who just went to the movies for recreation and didn't devote their time to reading about celebrities and behind-the-scene exposes. Even today, the majority of moviegoers just go to have fun. They don't really care about the stars (more so now than ever) and only know of minor actors because, as has been pointed out, everything it so accessible now. It's hard not to be inundated with crap.
- [quote]Even today, the majority of moviegoers just go to have fun. They don't really care about the stars (more so now than ever) and only know of minor actors because, as has been pointed out, everything it so accessible now. It's hard not to be inundated with crap.
I don't agree with this part of your post. Actually, the problem today is, people care TOO MUCH about minor celebs who possess very little talent. It's also unfortunate that moviegoers will go to see the crapiest movies on the planet simply because their fave stars are in these films.
We are saturated with crap, everyday....whether it's online, on TV and in print media...there are constant reports about people who would have been considered D level celebrities back then. I wouldn't mind if the focus was on talented, or even fun celebs, a large portion of reporting seems to be about no-talents like the Kardashians and other illiterate creations of the media.
I think, had Sharon Tate been a new celeb hitting the scene today and based on her beauty alone, she would be a mega-star today, because the general public loves beautiful and glamorous people. Today, talent takes a backseat to glamour and artifice.
My mom, who subscribes to The NY Daily News, asked me why a model, Miranda Kerr, is constantly featured in the paper's gossip section nearly every day.
I had no answer other than Kerr probably has a very persistant publicist and the fact that she was married to Orlando Bloom, other than that, Miranda Kerr is a void, she's boring as hell with a nasally voice which could peel paint. Sure, models were known back in the 1960s and 1970s, but they were never elevated to the status they've had over the past two decades.
- She was on par with Jayne Mansfield. A small talent, with good looks and better connections. If she had lived, I don't think she ever would have done anything above B level work -- if that.
She was filler for the celebrity party scene. Sadly, she paid the price for being good enough to part of the scene, but not great enough to be untouchable in the scene,
- Tate can in no way be considered on par with Jayne Mansfield. Not even remotely.
- "A" list means name above the title and power in opening a movie. The OP's query is simply bizarre.
And RB's aside, Polanski is best known here for the Manson murders and his own subsequent flight from justice.
- r36 is a star...from another galaxy where definitions are arse-backwards.
- r44, the LaBiancas had close neighbors.
- r68, aside from Roman's hideous childhood, Sharon was part of the Laurel Canyon Generation of M-I C and CIA kids (David Crosby was another), chosen to promote anti-Establishment "values" in a very weird co-opting Fifth Column kind of way.
- People are trying to rewrite history and claim Tate was an icon of the 60s, akin to her friend Julie Christie. She was never on Christie's level.
- "She was one of the most photographed women in the sixties and a fashion icon."
No, she wasn't! The Shrimptons were. Twiggy was. Others.
- Sharon Tate became a 60s fashion icon and star as a direct result of being murdered. Joan Didion wrote that the 60s ended on that night. So when one thinks about the decade in retrospect, Sharon Tate has become a symbol for people's memories of the 60s. However, she was not a symbol for the 60s as they were actually happening.
The cultural end of The Sixties was ALTAMONT.
- R132, Altamont happened AFTER the Tate/LaBianca murders. Four months later, actually.
- Sharon didn't have enough work under her belt yet to be considered a full fledged movie star. But she had talent and the people she worked with in the business have said so. At any rate after the murders she took center stage and thru the decades has remained there.
Forty five years after her ill fated end and they are still talking about her and writing books about her.
- Sharon was definitely D-list. It matched her cup size.
- In this documentary Max Baer Jr. stated that he DID NOT date Sharon Tate as she was out of his league and she was dating Phillipe Forquet during her run on "The Beverly Hillbillies." So between the Jerry Springer show and E True Hollywoods Last Days of Sharon Tate interview I guess old Max decided to tell the truth!?
"Sharon is a great discovery, first of all she's a fabulously good looking bird and she's got all the fun and spark and go, she's a marvellous girl and I think she's a very, very good actress, she's obviously going to make a big hit in this picture." - David Niven, co-star in Eye Of The Devil
- In that Jerry Springer interview, someone else mentioned that Baer and Tate dated briefly and he sort of confirmed it,saying he "took her out a couple times," but he didn't give the impression that it was anything more. To my knowledge, he has never said they had a deep passionate love affair -- like Tony Bennett did with Marilyn. By the end of his life, Bennett was saying that they had a torrid affair and she had his baby and he had her get an abortion. His story was constantly evolving. Baer has never embellished his association with Tate.
- R137 Yeah I guess "dating" could mean having lunch or a cup of coffee off set. He does however state "In Last Days of Sharon Tate" that he never dated her because she wasn't in his league.
After her relationship with Forquet (who put her in the hospital after a beating) she met Jay Sebring, the men's hair sylist, who she was with until Polanski. But that's another story.........
- Has anyone seen the film Shampoo? That's based on the year before the murders. Warren Beatty is Sebring, Goldie Hawn is his girlfriend Sharon Tate (who runs off with a European director). Julie Christie is basically playing herself.
- I was around 17 at the time of her death. Sharon Tate was a beautiful woman, who had been in Playboy and whom Hollywood was trying hard to make happen. I had never seen her anything at the time of her death. Valley of the Dolls was considered a big stupid, camp movie. There was no evidence she had any acting talent and the Playboy connection made her a little sleazy.
- R139 According to the 2010 book Star: How Warren Beatty Seduced America by Peter Biskind, screenwriter Robert Towne based the character on Beverly Hills hairdresser Gene Shacove and not Jay Sebring!
- R140 Wrong. "Valley of the Dolls" has achieved camp and cult status since it's release. However it was Fox's biggest money maker in 1968! Hard to believe now that people took this shit seriously. Tate was the only actor who seemed to fair better than Duke, Parkins et al in reviews.
I thought the photos Polanski did of her in Playboy on set of "Fearless Vampire Killers" very tastefully done.
- Beatty is lying. It's Jay.
- R143 Not Beatty but the screenwriter Robert Towne. Why would he lie about who he wrote it on? Being that Sebring was more well known wouldn't it make sense to say Sebring if it in fact was?
- r144, Towne is lying. It's Jay.
- I know that, r133. My point WAS that, in fact. IOW, I disagree with the claim about the Manson murders.
- R140, incidentally, here's a clip of Hefner briefly interviewing Tate and Polanski. She looked so beautiful and seemed like a sweetheart.
- Here's part 2:
- R147 R148 Great clips! Thanks for sharing.
- I don't know which is the larger number? The number of people who were "gave up a seat" on Buddy Holly's plane or the people who were "supposed to be" at the Melcher house?
- r150 Considering both murders were drug hits, a lot of people easily could've been at that house.
- It has been confirmed several times that Manson knew that Melcher moved out of the Cielo Drive house. He was familiar with the house and the property.
- Didn't recently deceased actor Christopher Jones tell people that he had an affair with Tate after she married Polanski?
- Yup Jones said that and years before he said that he and Sharon were very close friends and that her death took a toll on him and it was part of the reason he left acting.
- Bump for Sharon
- Maybe Sharon was a great lay but I always thought of her as a B actress. I didn't realize there was anything lower.
- [quote]I don't know which is the larger number? The number of people who were "gave up a seat" on Buddy Holly's plane or the people who were "supposed to be" at the Melcher house?
The late, great SPY magazine had a funny little feature box about this; they quoted about 10 different celebrities talking about the Tate murder, and every quote included the line, "That could've been me..."
- Vincent Bugliosi pretty much got it right when he wrote that, as an actress, Sharon was required to basically "just stand there and be beautiful". She was the ethereal, unattainable beauty that the middle-aged leading men lusted after in those silly 60s 'sex movies'. Polanski put her in 'The Fearless Vampire Killers', but I doubt either of them expected her to be the next Julie Christie. Sharon was the Bo Derek or Kate Upton of the 60s.
- I read in one of the tabs on the anniversary of her death (so take with a grain of salt) some friend saying their marriage was not going very well at the time of her death. Apparently, he didn't want her to have a child and was angry she wouldn't have an abortion. She wanted the child very badly, but her going against his wishes resulted in him not having sex with her anymore and screwing around on her. IIRC the friend said that she was this sex goddess or sex object to him and it was marred by her being pregnant. So he didn't find her sexy after that. The friend said that if she had lived the marriage wouldn't have lasted because he objectified her as this sex symbol and he needed her to be that for him, not some child's mother that would cause her attention to be divided between him and a child. That made it very sad to me, because if true, she was risking a lot to have this baby and had begged for its life.
- R142,not wrong. People who weren't dopes regarded it as a stupid movie with terrible acting. The Graduate and Bonnie & Clyde came out the same year, and both were must-see films. I'm sure people loved Valley of the Dolls in small towns and malls across America, though.
Sharon Tate was far from a household name.
- It's always bugged me (don't know why) that Watson, Atkins and Krenwinkel made sure most of the lights (except for a reading lamp) were turned off while they stabbed the victims to death. Supposedly Jay was talking down Sharon after she had an argument with Roman on the phone. Roman wasn't going to make it back to LA for his birthday and Sharon was disappointed. While eating dinner with his family back home in Denton, Texas, Watson's relatives started talking about who could have murdered "those famous people out in California" and what crossed Watson's mind was how he had noticed how exquisitely beautiful Sharon Tate's face was while he was stabbing her.
Details like that make my heart hurt.
- Wasn't there a falling out a few years after the murders between Polanski and Sharon's family? Sharon's mother and sister were very active during the trials and later on with hearings and other activities regarding the Manson family. Doris Tate was very upset years later when she found out that Tex Watson fathered four children via conjugal visits.
- It could be argued that Jay Sebring had more name recognition than Sharon at that time. He had been heavily publicized as the "barber to the stars" for his haircuts for some of the top actors like McQueen and Newman.
I am sure that most people assumed that Abigail Folger was related to the coffee family too. The name was not that common.
- [quote]People who weren't dopes regarded it as a stupid movie with terrible acting. The Graduate and Bonnie & Clyde came out the same year, and both were must-see films. I'm sure people loved Valley of the Dolls in small towns and malls across America, though.
Like Grace Metalious before her, Jacqueline Susann was considered a trashy and untalented writer who wrote novels for the sake of sexual titillation, one step up from the Harlequin bodice busters. Some of those trashy novels were made into trashy movies. VOTD was among them.
I think it's a mistake to say the movie found its success in small towns and malls. I don't know who made up its biggest audience, but I seem to recall it was enjoyed by people who liked trashy paperbacks with no redeeming value beyond getting them wet. My guess is that it found its biggest audience at matinee showings.
- It was a big Christmas release hit. Bad reviews but a moneymaker.
- It's not surprising the movie made money. It was probably low budget even by the standards of the time. There were no stars in it, so salaries were probably low.
The books made money too.
We've talked about how different fame was at the time, but so was entertainment. Those books and movies were considered highly risqué at the time and people probably felt they were being adventurous seeing them.
Movies were not that open about sex. Porn wasn't an everyday thing like it is now.
- [quote]Wasn't there a falling out a few years after the murders between Polanski and Sharon's family ?
Not that I'm aware of. I know that Sharon's sister Debra is on good terms with Roman and that Roman stayed in touch with Sharon's parents even after he fled the U.S. in the late 70s.
- R162 Doris Tate spent ten years after Sharon's killing in a deep depression and wouldn't talk of her daughter's murder. Stephen Kay who helped Bugliosi prosecute the killers sent Doris a heads up in 1982 about LaBianca murderess Leslie Van Houten coming up for parole. With his help and The National Enquirer, Doris obtained almost one thousand signatures from the public to fight Van Houten's parole. It worked and so started Doris Tate's fight for victims rights. She died in 1992 and youngest daughter Patti took over until her death from breast cancer in 2000. Debbie Tate the lone survivor now goes and fights against parole for the Manson killers.
- The movie made money because the book was the hottest thing to read when it was published in 1966. People couldn't wait to see the film. The critics hated it but the public still went in groves (whether they liked it or not is topic for another thread).
Low budget!? Hardly. I think Fox spent over 5 million to produce the picture and that was 1968.
No stars in it? Patty Duke was an Academy Award winner for Christ's sake plus very popular with television audiences because of The Patty Duke Show. Barbara Parkins was big at the time due to "Peyton Place." Susan Hayward held her own and was what you would consider a MOVIE STAR. And don't forget before Hayward joined on the whole Judy Garland fiasco. No "Valley of the Dolls" was hyped up and a big production for FOX then. So..now it's considered a camp fest blah blah blah. But people still want to see it. I guess it's made it's mark for the good and bad.
- R161 yeah, I think he wrote he used to taunt his mother about "how beautiful Sharon was right up until the time I cut her!" The son of a bitch is where he belongs and that's probably too good for him!?
- R158 Sharon never thought she was a great dramatic actress so to keep saying she was a B or C or D or F is moot. She said she liked light comedy and I personally think she was good at that. She used to tell people all the time that "Roman's the one with talent." But you know? What the fuck!? Most women and a helluva lot guys would have liked to accomplished what this beauty did in just 26 years. A little television, a handful of movies, lots of modeling and a Golden Globe nominee. That's not so bad in my book. And in Hollywood then and now people remember her as a sweet soul who never said cruel things about people. I wonder how many celebrities today with allot bigger and longer careers will leave that sort of legacy?
- Jacqueline Susann was no Grace Metalious.
- R172 No she wasn't. But she was a fantastic self promoter and knew how to make a buck!
- r169 I wanted to write the same thing but was closed out due to primetime LOL
- R173, you should read Lovely Me by Barbara Seaman. Susann was certainly a self-promoter extraordinaire, but she was no writer. As in, she didn't write the majority of her own trashy crap books.
- R175 I read that book. Didn't Jackie type everything all out but then the editor had to assemble it and edit the shit out of it!?
- How did Larry deal with the murders?
- No, r170, you have paraphrased a line from "In Cold Blood."
“I didn’t want to harm the man. I thought he was a very nice gentleman. Soft-spoken. I thought so right up to the moment I cut his throat.”
- R169, this may come as a surprise to you but many of us weren't that impressed by Patty Duke's godawful TV show. She was good as the female Tommy but that was Anne Bancroft's movie.
Barbara Parkins was known for Peyton Place? Good enough reason not to see anything she was in.
So much for all of those huge stars.
Everyone I knew who saw the movie when it first came out hated it. I never bothered because it wasn't my kind of movie.
- r179 just b/c u didn't like the PD show and I guess Peyton Place, the American public did.. And of course seeing America's sweetheart (Patty Duke) playing against type was a major draw. And let's not forget the letting go of Judy Garland being replace by Hayward was a must see.
- R169 Just b/c u didn't like the PD Show and I guess Peyton Place doesn't mean that the American public didn't. The public wanted to see American Sweetheart (Patty Duke) in a different role. And Judy Garland being let go and Susan Hayward replacing her also drew the crowds.
- She was an irregular cast member on "The Beverly Hillbillies."
- [quote]To my knowledge, he has never said they had a deep passionate love affair -- like Tony Bennett did with Marilyn. By the end of his life, Bennett was saying that they had a torrid affair and she had his baby and he had her get an abortion.
For the record, Tony Bennett is alive (but, okay, safe to say he's at the end portion).
- R183, I meant Tony CURTIS. haha
I also meant to say that he later said that Marilyn was pregnant with his baby and told her to abort it and how he now felt bad about it, yadda yadda yadda.
- R161, R170, R178, what I found chilling was that he sliced up her face before they all started taking turns stabbing her. That's what he was referring to, that she was exquisitely beautiful before he marred her face.
In this morgue photo, you can see where he knifed her left cheek.
- R185, what is that thing coming out of her chest? It looks like an erect penis.
- R185, I've read many books on these murders, but have never read any of the comments you are attributing to Charles "Tex" Watson.
I have shown how you made up one "quote" using "In Cold Blood."
There was never said "They all took turns stabbing" Sharon.
What is your source?
No, I won't click on your link.
- Tex Watson admitted to stabbing Sharon Tate. He did cut her cheek slightly with his knife before stabbing her.
In his book "Will You Die For Me?" Watson said he taunted his mother about how beautiful Sharon was right up until the time he stabbed her.
I've read "In Cold Blood" and remember the part where Perry Smith said that Herb Clutter was "a nice man and I thought so right up until the time I slit his throat."
- I always had the feeling Polanski suffered from PTSD after the murders, sincr PTSD sufferers do everything to avoid confrontation with the cause of their trauma.
- Valley of the Dolls was the movie of a best selling book. People went for that reason. Word of mouth did the rest -- it was a hit even though the reviews were bad.
My never-goes-to-the-movies father even went with my mother. (They wouldn't let 12 years old me go).
It wasn't a hit because of any of the stars, it was because of the book.
- Sharon was very gorgeous. She and that other poor girl Reeva share similarities:
- Reeva could have been Sharon's daughter:
- Peyton Place was HUGE in the mid 60's and all the move mags of the day promoted the cast of PP more than any other tv show. Mia Farrow was the queen of this, with Barbara Parkins a distant second in popularity, but still wildly popular. Parkins wanted the part of Neely and gave a good reading, but Fox (which also produced the tv PP) insisted on Babs for Anne.
So Parkins and Duke were definitley A- list, Tate probably was B- list mainly because of Polanski. She traveled in his circle, and mixed with Fonda, Beatty, David Bailey, Denueve, that whole crew.
- R193, Barbara Parkins, Mia Farrow and Patty Duke were TV ACTORS. A-list on TV, not in movies. Doesn't matter how popular their TV shows were. Tate was unknown was not known to the public.
- R192, Tate didn't have a daughter. Her only child (in her womb) was killed with her.
- R192: Hmm I'm aware of that. That's why I said 'could have been'.
- Oops sorry, the immediate above is from R192 to R195.
- R194 You're correct except for stating "it didn't matter." Obviously it did because they were hired in a big budget picture. And Sharon Tate as you stated was not known to the average general public. She was however very well known in Hollywood. It matters not because after her murder she became a star and now it seems iconic. I've seen more about Sharon Tate the last ten to twenty years than ever before.
- R189 He could have suffered this condition before the murders. He survived the Holocaust that took his mother's life. He has had a lot of personal tragedy. Much of it he brought to himself.
- In Roman Polanski's version of Macbeth (a must-see), the witches are clearly supposed to be the Manson girls. Of course, like Woody Allen, RT will make no public connection to his personal life in his work (obfuscation, but his prerogative), but the witches are obviously the crazy, sleazy, evil Manson girls. So he did deal with it in his work somewhat, even if he won't admit it.
- R198, you're missing the point. None of them were A-List movie stars -- that was the question, even though they got the movie roles.
Sharon Tate was know in the industry, okay. She was by no means an A, B or C-list movie actress to the public, which is OP's original question.
- R171 so true. Time to close the thread on poor Sharon Tate and whatever list you think she made.
- It's true. She was an archetype of the total blonde knockout who was kind and loving - a rare find and the cornerstone of the tragedy of the skeevy and evil Manson murders.
- Sharon never thought she was a great dramatic actress so to keep saying she was a B or C or D or F is moot. She said she liked light comedy and I personally think she was good at that. She used to tell people all the time that "Roman's the one with talent." But you know? What the fuck!? Most women and a helluva lot guys would have liked to accomplished what this beauty did in just 26 years. A little television, a handful of movies, lots of modeling and a Golden Globe nominee. That's not so bad in my book. And in Hollywood then and now people remember her as a sweet soul who never said cruel things about people. I wonder how many celebrities today with allot bigger and longer careers will leave that sort of legacy?
“Goodbye, Sharon, and may the angels welcome you to heaven and the martyrs guide your way,” Rev. Peter O’Reilly at the funeral service
- She had nice tits, though.
- R204 confuses being popular with being good. A list is about being popular and well-known, which Sharon was not in 1969. It is not moot that very few in the movie going public knew who she was until her death. Repeating her meager career achievements does not change this.
- And, R202, why are you constantly answering yourself?
- R206 And we all bet you have achieved as much as she did!? I don't think what she achieved was meager. If you do that's your opinion.
When they do a film and book on your life come on back and bitch your argument.
- R207 I don't. There are four of us using the computer and we all post on data lounge. Believe it or not!!?
- R208, when have they done a film on Tate's life? She's only been portrayed as a minor character in the Manson family movies. She's never been the focus, because that's what/all she's remembered for.
- R209, get acquainted with TROLLDAR.
At 202 you tell yourself R171, "so true."
At 204, you cut and paste what you wrote in R171, and congratulate yourself with "WELL SAID!"
- so what's your point. Quit posting in this Sharon Tate thread if it raises your blood pressure. You don't have shit to say anyway.
Go stand in front of a mirror and tell yourself that you are important. Good luck!
- R212, you truly have a problem. The kind that gets someone banned. Bye!
- President Barack Obama arrived in Palm Springs, California on Saturday via Air Force One to spend Father's Day playing golf. Hours earlier, he had lectured graduating students at University of California, Irvine, about the need to "do something" about climate change, mocking those who questioned that policy goal.
The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) encourages reducing unnecessary air travel to minimize carbon dioxide emissions. Golf courses are also frequent targets of environmentalists--especially in southern California, where a severe drought has placed a spotlight on golf courses' use of scarce water resources.
- Jennifer took the blue ones.
- what color ones did Neely take?
- I actually think r1 may have hit on the nail. jessica alba circa blue crush and if married to a hollywood player.
- Jessica Alba wasn't in Blue Crush
- Well that other flick with Blue in the title.
- I always wondered why the Mansons killed her and didn't cut her baby out and take it. She was 8+ months pregnant the baby would have survived. That would have seemed to be more in line with their general craziness.
- Lovely interview with Sharon discussing being a starlet, circa 1966. She really was very articulate and poised. Some great answers she gave.
- There was also a 10 minute or so film on Sharon Tate, which I saw a few weeks ago during an intermission on TMC. She was filming 1967's "Eye of the Devil" at the time.
They interviewed her, David Hemmings, David Niven & Deborah Kerr, all her co-stars in the movie. She & Niven in particular, liked each other immensely. The interview film was absolutely creepy in light of what ultimately happened to Sharon.
I would say she was not yet A List at this time, but certainly on her way & very well known already.