Pa. lawmaker yanks support for LGBT protections over ‘bathroom issue’
HARRISBURG, Pa. — A Pennsylvania state lawmaker has withdrawn his support for a proposed amendment to the state’s Human Relations Act, citing “concerns” regarding use of public facilities for transgender people.
Rep. John Galloway, a Democrat from Bucks County, Pa., had originally signed on as a cosponsor of a measure to expand protections under the Human Rights Act to to prohibit discrimination in employment, housing and public accommodations on the basis of “sexual orientation” or “gender identity or expression.”
Galloway told the PoliticsPA that he supports “ninety percent of the bill,” but expressed concern over use of public restrooms by transgender individuals.
“I think preventing housing and employment discrimination is a no brainer.” said Galloway. “I do have questions about the transgender issue where it concerns public facilities. I’m not sure how it would affect people who aren’t transgender.”
“I would like to do more research into how this would concern, for example, public restrooms,” he said.
Levana Layendecker, the chief spokesperson for Equality Pennsylvania, a statewide LGBT advocacy group, told LGBTQ Nation on Monday that she believed Galloway and other House lawmakers have come under increasing pressure from conservative religious groups to withdraw their support over the “bathroom” issue.
But Layendecker noted that the “measure enjoys support from most House Democrats and several Republicans.”
PoliticsPA reported that the “bathroom issue” was emphasized in the Faithful Citizenship blog, which encouraged readers to lobby Galloway and other representatives to drop their support of the bill. So far only Galloway has removed his name from the legislation.
“While it is disappointing to lose a supporter, Equality PA has gathered more co-sponsors than ever before on SB 300 including bi-partisan support,” said Ted Martin, executive director of Equality PA, in a statement to LGBTQ Nation.
“Recent polls show that 70 percent of Pennsylvanians believe that LGBT people should not be discriminated against at work or for housing. We are confident that we have the support in the state to win this important victory for equality,” he said.
It is definitely a major obstacle to passing LGB protections.
It's ridiculous paranoia. Has anyone ever been sexually assaulted by a transgendered person in a bathroom?
Please, who cares. All bathrooms could me unisex. I've always found restroom segregation to be ridiculous. Except at intermission, when the Ladies take forever.
r3, are you male?
How the hell does anyone know what genitals someone has under their clothing anyway?
Another question - if people really think they can be "recognized", do female-to-males really want to use the men's room anyway? If I were them I would be at least a little afraid of being beaten up or raped by the other patrons in there.
Wait - so are there no doors in the bathrooms in Pennsylvania? Ridiculous.
On another message board some guy was complaining about having someone with a penis using the women's restroom. I pointed out that this transgender person, would appear to be woman, and no one would know if she had a penis or not. Then I ask him if he would prefer to have someone who by all outward appearances was a woman, standing next to him using the urinal. He never replied. Yeah I know that most likely they would use a stall, regardless of whether they used the men's or women's room. I just wanted to put that idea in his head. Sorry if I offended anyone by the use of person/she/they/etc. Just attempting to convey my point as easy to understand as possible. No offense intended, but knowing DataLounge I am sure I will hear about it.
Not all transgendered people can pass, so seeing a biological man with a wig in a ladies bathroom will upset most women. And many transmen also can't pass for a biological man. Not everyone has the money for the extensive physical transformation. And even if they do, some still can't pass.
So I don't buy the comments so far in this thread that "you can't tell" anyway.
I support trans rights, but I hate how they are clobbered in with gay rights. Especially since many bills would pass if it weren't for this issue.
R9 - again, so the most you're sharing is a few glances, a sink and a mirror. What's the big deal? I've shared bathrooms with a lot of smelly and dirty people.
R10, I think part of it is fear of R9's example. A lot of transgender females unfortunately DO NOT pass as well as they might think.
It's not the transgendered person per se, but if it is "legal" or whatever for transgender females to use the women's bathroom, what's going to stop every straight male pervert from throwing on a wig so they can hang out in the ladies room and snoop or worse. Anyone questions why they are there, they can just claim they are allowed to be there because they are transgendered.
That is an extreme example, but I know there are some people that have those concerns.
It is even a concern among gay and bisexual people. Some of my gay/bi friends recently expressed their discomfort with trans people using the restroom for the gender they identify with. It's like they view them as perverts trying to sneak into the opposite sex restroom. They said stuff like, "what about everyone else's rights?" or "what about my privacy rights?" People really are uncomfortable with transgenderism.
[quote]Pa. lawmaker yanks support for LGBT protections over ‘bathroom issue’
So yanking in a bathroom produces issue, what's the big deal?
Is it always bathrooms or showers or barracks or dormitories with these people? When the flyin' Hell are they gonna' grow up, and stop acting like 9 yo's that just discovered genders and sexuality????? As lame excuses go, this is right up there.
I don't give a shit what bigoted breeder boys are comfortable with. As a gay man, I'd be more comfortable pissing next to a transgendered person than a breeder.
R15, great for you, dude. Unfortunately, many gay and bi men still disagree.
We need to drop the T from our community. They hurt normal gays
This was why it was hard for sanantonio to pass thrir ordinance.
I don't hate transgendered people but WHY THE HELL ARE THEY SO LINKED UP WITH US?. Why do our rights get held up because of body mutilators?
Why are transgendered always grouped with Gays and Lesbians? It's completely different and it's more of a hindrance than a help.
Leading women's group in Canada is saying your DNA does not change, if you are trans. They say these people need therapy, not new trans laws.
While I agree completely with R18 and R19 -- there is no purer expression of the desire to not be gay than the transsexual's -- I couldn't give a shit if one of them wants to use a different bathroom than they're physically hooked up for.
It would be nice if our rights didn't get held up by the desires of people who can't accept being gay.
R17, Ts are not gay. If they could accept that they're gay, and don't need to mutilate their bodies, this wouldn't be an issue.
I can't think of anyone less accepting of homosexuality than Ts.
r22, exactly!! They are freaks
The only time I've felt it was a problem was at the already cramped Old Vic Ladies' room seeing "Hedwig and the Angry Inch" in San Francisco.
Their struggle is not our struggle, R24. I don't wish any harm to come to any of them, but "gay" is the last place they belong.
And I'm more fucked than most by this decision, as I live in PA.
I I understand not wanting them in the womans bathroom. Any man can just put on a dress and a wig and then they have easy access to rape any woman he wants.
[R28] Or it's extremely uncomfortable to have someone with such severe psychological issues being near you.
A prominent Toronto psychiatrist has severely criticized the assumptions underlying what has been dubbed by critics as the Canadian federal government's "bathroom bill," that is, Bill C-279, a private member’s bill that would afford special protection to so-called "transgender" men and women.
Dr. Joseph Berger has issued a statement saying that from a medical and scientific perspective there is no such thing as a "transgendered" person, and that terms such as “gender expression” and “gender identity" used in the bill are at the very least ambiguous, and are more an emotional appeal than a statement of scientific fact.
Berger, who is a consulting psychiatrist in Toronto and whose list of credentials establishes him as an expert in the field of mental illness, stated that people who identify themselves as "transgendered" are mentally ill or simply unhappy, and pointed out that hormone therapy and surgery are not appropriate treatments for psychosis or unhappiness.
"From a scientific perspective, let me clarify what ‘transgendered’ actually means," Dr. Berger said, adding, "I am speaking now about the scientific perspective – and not any political lobbying position that may be proposed by any group, medical or non-medical."
"‘Transgendered’ are people who claim that they really are or wish to be people of the sex opposite to which they were born, or to which their chromosomal configuration attests," Dr. Berger stated.
"Some times, some of these people have claimed that they are ‘a woman trapped in a man’s body’ or alternatively ‘a man trapped in a woman’s body’."
The medical treatment of delusions, psychosis or emotional happiness is not surgery," Dr. Berger stated.
"On the other hand," Dr. Berger continued, "if these people are asked to clarify exactly what they believe, that is to say do they truly believe whichever of those above propositions applies to them and they say ‘no’, then they know that such a proposition is not true, but that they ‘feel’ it, then what we are talking about scientifically, is just unhappiness, and that unhappiness is being accompanied by a wish – that leads some people into taking hormones that predominate in the other sex, and even having cosmetic surgery designed to make them ‘appear’ as if they are a person of the opposite sex."
He explained that cosmetic surgery will not change the chromosomes of a human being in that it will not make a man become a woman, capable of menstruating, ovulating, and having children, nor will it make a woman into a man, capable of generating sperm that can unite with an egg or ovum from a woman and fertilize that egg to produce a human child.
Moreover, Dr. Berger stated that the arguments put forward by those advocating for special rights for gender confused people have no scientific value and are subjective and emotional appeals with no objective scientific basis.
"I have read the brief put forward by those advocating special rights, and I find nothing of scientific value in it," Dr. Berger said in his statement. "Words and phrases, such as 'the inner space,' are used that have no objective scientific basis."
"These are the scientific facts," Dr. Berger said. "There seems to me to be no medical or scientific reason to grant any special rights or considerations to people who are unhappy with the sex they were born into, or to people who wish to dress in the clothes of the opposite sex."
"The so-called ‘confusion’ about their sexuality that a teenager or adult has is purely psychological. As a psychiatrist, I see no reason for people who identify themselves in these ways to have any rights or privileges different from everyone else in Canada," he concluded.
Having known many people who've identified as 'transgender', it's clear to me that they are gay people who can't or won't accept that fact. A lot of gay kids started out as kids who played with 'gender identity', it's very commonplace. But now you hear of 8 year olds being labeled 'transgender' because they want to play with a doll rather than with a truck. One 'little girl' was decided to be transgender on the basis that 'she' liked the color pink.
Parents are more comfortable with transgender because it supports their stereotypes about gender, and also precludes having a gay kid. Occasionally a transgender person identifies as gay, but the vast majority recoil from it, and their primary objective is to pass as straight and as the opposite sex.
Sorry, it doesn't exist. It's a psychological reaction to being gay.
The restroom thing is not really about transgender people, anyway. It's about the possibility of a sexual predator putting on a wig and dress and pretending to be transgender to get into the women's restroom.
R31 i could not have said it better.
I think there should be a movement to remove the 't" and the "b" because it makes the community look even less legit, when the majority of slutty young women today identify as bi.
r32 But there's nothing to stop a sexual predator from doing that now. I'm not aware that this might be an MO for would-be rapists. I wonder if statistics on this exist?
Why must we be constantly lumped in with the mentally trannies?
Most of you posting here would make GREAT FReepers. You should all head on over to their site.
R35, you do remember that up until the early 1970s, homosexuality was considered a mental illness, right?
And since the DSM has been changed, neither is transsexuality.
r31 NAILS IT
Every tranny I know is profoundly fucked up!!
"exactly!! They are freaks"
Lots of people say the same thing about gays...
"Sorry, it doesn't exist. It's a psychological reaction to being gay."
Not true. Believing that you are trapped in the wrong body is NOT the same thing as being gay. I know plenty of gay guys but they don't want to be women or hack off their dicks (even the really femmy ones). It's not the same thing.
"I have read the brief put forward by those advocating special rights, and I find nothing of scientific value in it,"
Only morons use the term "special rights."
"One 'little girl' was decided to be transgender on the basis that 'she' liked the color pink."
Of course you have no evidence to back this up.
The % of people who have been raped or molested in a public restroom is quite miniscule. Most predators target people they know.
Where are all the "transgender" animals in the world?
The majority of the people on this thread are no better than the Rick Santorums of the world. You're basically using the exact same arguments against transgender people that they use against gay people.
How pathetic is it that Pat Robertson (!) shows more compassion and understanding on this issue than most of the posters on this thread? Go to FreeRepublic where you belong and stew in your hatred there.
There's a biological test for gender. It's pretty simple, no matter what you do to yourself.
No such thing for "gay".
The women's bathroom/changing room issue has always been a problem in Washington where a MtF trans has been sitting around nude in the women's dressing room at the Evergreen College pool. The big problem is that s/he's been doing it in front of kids.
Other weird bits of trans info. Transexuality is a huge mental health issue because the suicide rate is so high. What you don't hear about is that transitioning doesn't help--the rate of suicide attempts may even be a bit higher among post-ops. One out of five post-ops say they regret having the surgery.
The rate of MtF transitions has dropped dramatically as social acceptance of effeminate gay men has increased. The numbers are rising among of FtM--not surprising when Ellen is about as butch as women are "allowed" to be.
I agree with R31, and with Dr Berger in R30's post.
But, if there really does need to be a unisex washroom, why not just designate men's rooms as such?
Men's rooms always have toilets and stalls anyway, so someone who'd rather sit down to pee can still have their privacy.
I think some people are truly transgender because of biology or physiology. Some are intersex, hermaphrodites, or psychologically unstable. I support accommodating such peoples' attempts to attain gender peace. However, I don't think we should deny that for the overwhelmingly majority of people, they are distinctly male or female in accordance with their gender identity. And that distinction is wonderfully significant and a good thing.. I don't think we should encourage gender amorphism or fluidity beyond what already naturally and permanently exists among a tiny percentage of people.
[bold]"Transsexual, 44, elects to die by euthanasia after botched sex-change operation turned him into a 'monster'[/bold]
A Belgian transsexual has chosen to die by euthanasia after a botched sex change operation to complete his transformation into a man left him a 'monster'.
Nathan Verhelst, 44, died yesterday afternoon after being allowed have his life ended on the grounds of 'unbearable psychological suffering'.
It is understood to be the first time someone in Belgium has chosen euthanasia after a sex-change, and comes soon after it emerged that it is now the cause of nearly one in 50 deaths in the country.
Born a girl named Nancy, his transformation into a man began with hormone therapy in 2009, followed by a mastectomy and finally an operation to construct a penis last year.
But the procedures did not go according to plan.
In the hours before his death he told Belgium's Het Laatse Nieuws: 'I was ready to celebrate my new birth. But when I looked in the mirror, I was disgusted with myself.
'My new breasts did not match my expectations and my new penis had symptoms of rejection. I do not want to be... a monster.'
His family learned of his decision this morning via a farewell letter."
R43 Show me where the Transgenders are in nature. That's right, no where. They have deep psychological issues and I'm not sure why people are so supportive of them mutilating themselves.
"Show me where the Transgenders are in nature."
ROFLMAO. Dumb argument, since humans are totally different than other animals. Studies show transgendered people do have different brains.
"However, I don't think we should deny that for the overwhelmingly majority of people, they are distinctly male or female in accordance with their gender identity. And that distinction is wonderfully significant and a good thing.. I don't think we should encourage gender amorphism or fluidity beyond what already naturally and permanently exists among a tiny percentage of people."
You sound like a stupid Republican.
"I agree with R31, and with Dr Berger in R30's post."
LOL, that doctor is the same type of person who would have been claiming that homosexuality is a mental illness 50 years ago.
"Transexuality is a huge mental health issue because the suicide rate is so high."
Gee, maybe that's because they receive so much hate from people like you. Gay teens have a higher-than-average suicide rate. You'd think gays would be more compassionate on this issue.
You're right, humans are different from other animals. None of them mutilate their genitalia and prance around as the opposite sex.
If you want to show something is natural it has to exist in nature. Therefore trangenders are freaks of nature.
I don't hate transexuals. I have no reason to do so, but I don't buy into the propaganda either. It bothers me that expensive surgery and a lifetime of powerful hormone is considered to be the "cure" to an issue that is not understood and under-researched.
It bothers me even more that the "cure" doesn't work 20 percent of the time. That says to me that transitioning may be the answer for some people, but I think given the extremism of the treatment, the failure rate is far too high.
I am very troubled by the recent trend of diagnosing young children as transgender, such as the 6-year-old child in Colorado who was born a boy, but whose parents claim has known s/he was a girl since the age of 18 months. Any basic book on kids will tell you the concept of gender is very fluid in the 3-and-under set. So will actually talking to children.
I think it's interesting that the number of MtF transitions has dropped with the wider acceptance of non-macho gay men.
Mental issues seem to have fads. In the 80s, there was a burst of multiple personality diagnoses, in the aughts and teens, it's transexuality. I think both conditions exist, but the 80s were a time of over-diagnosis for the former and now is a time of over-diagnosis for the latter.
You all sound like Nazis and the worst kind of hateful evangelicals.
"In the 80s, there was a burst of multiple personality diagnoses, in the aughts and teens, it's transexuality"
Multiple personality syndrome does NOT exist but trans people do. It's hardly a "trend" either since only a small percent of people identify as trans.
"If you want to show something is natural it has to exist in nature."
Humans have more complex brains than other animals. You sound very stupid.
R50 I could not care less if you think you are a man. Or a woman.
But stop sticking "T" onto the existing GLB initialism. Because "G" (or "L" or "B") is the thing you don't want to be [italic]so badly[/italic] you're willing to mutilate your body in order that you not be "G" (or "L" or "B").
Your struggle is not our struggle. Your struggle is not to be like us, it is to be NOT like us. It is one of this life's greatest ironies that you continue to append yourself to us.
r55, why do you keep spreading the myth the trans people are gays who don't want to be gay? Homosexuality and transsexuality are two different issues. Being gay is not the same thing as being trans.
[quote]Being gay is not the same thing as being trans.
I could not agree more.
But since you know this, and admit it openly, why, why, WHY, do you insist upon appending "T" to "LGB"?
Well, the current term for multiple personality disorder is Dissociative Identity Disorder and it's occurrence is estimated to be around 1 percent of the population. And, yes, the diagnosis is controversial. Not unlike Gender Identity Disorder.
As for trendiness, I think that explains why the ratio of GID in the general population is 1:2000 in the Netherlands, but 1:200 in Massachuesetts. Part of it is where there's social acceptance, but the Netherlands is hardly a conservative backwater, so . . .
I think something is going on, but I also think the approach to treating GID is pretty primitive and external.
I've read that the T in GLBT is there because transvestites were among the first rebels (i.e. at Stonewall), but, yeah, there's a real split in aims.
You have to love the Marys throwing around words like "Nazi" because some people think 'transgender' is not the same thing as gay.
Homosexuality exists virtually everywhere in nature. 'Transgender' does not.Gender itself is nothing but anatomy. You can't actually 'be born in the wrong body'. That's absolutely absurd.
It's a psychological issue. Period.
When I was a young boy, I went to Catholic school, where everyone wore a uniform. I was not inspired by anyone's outfits until the first December, when each class had its Christmas party. All the girls wore dresses. I was in heaven. They all looked so beautiful, I wanted Santa to bring me a dress for Christmas. I was certain a mistake had been made, that I was really a girl.
My mother explained to me that I was a boy, and boys didn't wear dresses, and if I became a boy who wore dresses, people might not like me. She added that if I still wanted to wear dresses by the time I was a teenager, we'd have another discussion then. In no way did she shame me. She just used logic.
Somehow, between my first grade Christmas party and Christmas day, when Santa brought me some new shirts and some particularly nice sweaters and pants, I realized I was a boy. Why would I want to wear a dress when I could wear all this cool new clothing?
Later on, when I entered my first locker room, I realized I was a boy who liked other boys. Regardless of wanting to wear a dress in first grade, what I was was a [italic]gay boy[/italic], and that part of that experience can include wanting to wear a dress. But I was a gay boy, and my penis would be fun someday, not merely useful. And it certainly wasn't something to be gotten rid of.
I am insulted by those people who think it's wrong for them to have a penis.
r22 Many trans people ARE gay, though. Many transwomen are attracted to women and many transmen are attracted to men.
r41 You are a man, so naturally you would not care if a biological female(trans or cis) is in a male bathroom. Females are not a physical threats to men.
But this is a real fear among females- lesbian or straight. And not necessarily people who are anti-transgender.
R61 What is a "transman"? A "transwoman"?
R63? what is your problem?
I have heard men express discomfort or hostility about having a FTM in the men's bathroom. I even heard a dude call it "violation of his religious rights" to have a FTM next to him at the urinal.
r66 but their discomfort is not really grounded in a fear of attack.
Transexuals are SICK!!! hAVE YOU noticed that male trannies have a 12 o clock shadow or don;t shave at all!! They are SICK
r64 trans women- born male, feels/identifies as female. And a trans-man is the same in reverse.
So a male-born person who is attracted to women wants to cut his dick off so he can become a lesbian, take female hormones and limit himself to lesbians? Why not stay male and fuck straight women?
And a female-born person who is attracted to men, but who has no reasonable expectation of having a functioning penis attached to her body, would take male hormones to make her feel male, or whatever, and sleep with the infinitesimally small number of men who would have her? That sounds absolutely miserable.
I can't believe anyone would put him or herself through such misery when one can simply stay male and fuck females, and (especially) stay female and fuck men.
they are disturbed!!
[quote]I can't believe anyone would put him or herself through such misery when one can simply stay male and fuck females, and (especially) stay female and fuck men.
Because they're mentally ill.
It's the same reason that people with BIID will literally amputate normal, healthy, functioning limbs that make them "feel incomplete".
For gays to be so hostile to the thought of equality for all people is revolting, and some of you posters should be ashamed of yourselves. Spare us your basement diagnoses and don't assume your experience is the same as others'. Biological sex may be a matter of anatomy and genes, but gender is a far more complicated thing entirely, shaped by biology, psychology and social conditioning. The 'T' that so many of you fear and loathe is appended to LGBT because we are all sexual minorities who, despite our differences, share common experiences of being excluded, denigrated and subject to violence because of who we are. I could not care less who's taking a dump in the stall next to me and I'm disgusted by how many gay men, who should know better, gleefully take advantage of any opportunity to cry 'freak'.
In San Francisco Woman screamed when a T tried to use the women's locker room.
Both the FTM and the MTF ended up using the men's locker room.
I admit it creeped me out. Open showers and being cruised by this FTM with a penis made me too uncomfortable. I switched gyms.
While I am definitely sympathetic to the transgender cause, I think it is important to fight that battle separate from the LGB battle. For one thing, gender identity about how the individual identifies with respect to being male or female, whereas sexual orientation is about one's affection for another. Naturally, society is going to have a harder time accepting the notion that birth biology does not determine gender identity than the notion that some people are attracted to the opposite sex. Further, we should not be reinforcing the stereotype that being gay is about wanting to be the opposite sex, and the association with transgenderism has only compounded the confusion. Finally, political considerations are important. If we can pass sexual orientation laws now, we must, and not cripple their progress by bundling them together with much-less popular transgender issues.
[quote]In San Francisco Woman screamed when a T tried to use the women's locker room.
Again, I say we have got to push for LGB and drop the damn T. I agree with this lawmaker, I don't want to be in a bathroom with fucking Chaz Bono.
I live in PA, so I am personally disappointed in this bill getting held up for the bathroom "rights" of these very, very few people, who aren't even part of our struggle.
"I live in PA, so I am personally disappointed in this bill getting held up for the bathroom "rights" of these very, very few people, who aren't even part of our struggle."
Blame politicians instead of transgendered people
Who really gives a Fuck, this is so stupid.
Once gay marriage becomes the law across the land, so many of you are going to become the worst kind of Republican.
This thread proves that many who have been marginalized cannot wait until the day that they get to be the ones doing the marginalizing, a particularly sick sort of power and superiority trip. This also accounts for why so many gay men carry a particularly nasty strain of racism (which I haven't really encountered in gay women).
So, just because they are a minority they should be grouped with us? They are nothing like Lesbians and Gays, the T should be dropped from LGBT. Everything would be better if they weren't associated with us.
While they're at it, they can drop the "B" as well.
Bisexuals don't care about gay rights in the least. Fuck Them!
"So, just because they are a minority they should be grouped with us? They are nothing like Lesbians and Gays, the T should be dropped from LGBT"
I do agree that, in many ways, being transgendered is different from being gay. But I really don't understand the overt hostility towards trans people here. It does sound very Republican
R83 I could live with GL, or even G, as that includes L. I've always thought of gays and lesbians as being the same, only different genders.
R77 = cunty cunt freeper
r70 Because they believe they were born in the wrong body. People aren't trans-gendered because they want to have sex with the same sex or the opposite sex.
Sexual orientation and sexual identity are two different things. But yes a straight trans person is going to have a very small dating pool.
R81, get off your high horse, Mary.
I support civil rights for people with mental illnesses. Which is what this is. I don't think people should be discriminated against. But this is MYTHOLOGY...people CAN'T be born into the 'wrong' body. It's Unicorn thinking. People believe in lots of things; UFO's, demon possessions, etc. Doesn't make it factual.
Now there are people saying they are "trans-species", and that they are dogs born in human bodies. I am NOT even kidding.
Sorry, but it's a disordered reaction to being gay. Period.
However you parse it, R88, I think we agree on one thing: "trans" has nothing to do with gay.
R89, the fundamental problem that I have with transgenderism is its adherence to gender stereotypes. How many times have we seen men claiming to be women because they wanted to wear dresses, were more gentle, played with dolls etc? These things have nothing to do with biology and everything to do with society. I truly believe there is no such thing as male and female brains and thus no way for anyone to be "born in the wrong body".
The comparison deeply offends me. It's incredibly homophobic.
I was born gay, and I am gay. I didn't have to spend tens of thousands of dollars to mutilate my body to 'match me' to my 'inner orientation'.
Trans people are much more like closet cases. Go listen to them on youtube...their primary objective is to 'pass'.
It's the extreme in self-loathing, accommodated by the medical community because it's profitable.
"Sorry, but it's a disordered reaction to being gay. Period."
Funny how you attack others for "unicorn thinking" but engage in unicorn thinking yourself...trans people are not the same as gays.
"How many times have we seen men claiming to be women because they wanted to wear dresses, were more gentle, played with dolls etc?"
There's more to it than that...even the girliest gay guys I know do not want to cut off their penises and become women. They may be girlier than most men but they still want to be men. That is why I don't buy into the thinking that trans people are just really femmy gay guys or butch lesbians. I think they are fundamentally different from gays.
I don't think that transpeople are super fem gay men. In fact many of them appear to be straight men... which is disturbing to me considering the way they tend to make a fetish out of gender stereotypes and go to extreme lengths to invade women only spaces (bathrooms, Michfest, etc)
r91, just articulated what I have wanted to express for decades. Dressing up in dresses, wearing makeup, wearing wigs, or wearing lipstick are not innately, biologically-driven female attributes. Those are socially-constructed notions of what women do, which varies from place to place and from time to time. The same applies to gender norms for males. Therefore, I don't see why born men would be innately compelled to do things that are merely culturally constructs not determined by biology. Wearing dresses is not a biological matter; it's a social construct.
Doesn't the phrase "cutting off their penis" clue you in? I said it's a mental illness. Some people have extreme reactions to the possibility of being gay...like suicide. Like gay bashing. The fact that folks actually cut off their genitalia is not about 'discovering the true self', it's self mutilation. Combining sexism and homophobia, at their extremes.
R96, when I discuss "trans" people, I am not talking about men who want to wear dresses. I'm talking about men who want to turn their penis into a vagina. Hardly a social construct and, as such, kind of irrelevant.
r92 Not all trans people enter into straight relationships.
For example the child of Warren Betty was born a female and transitioned to a male. He is attracted to only males. Therefore this is clearly a person that is going to live as a "gay male."
Not all trans people enter into opposite sex relationships.
R96 is dead on.
R95 yup. Like the Matrix director.
You know, I'm starting to resent how all of a sudden in the past few years everything has become about trans, trans, trans. They are literally like 2% of the population, but everything in the community is so thoroughly dominated by trans issues nowadays I fear gay guys are losing their masculinity.
Seriously, it's transgender this and RuPaul's drag race that. I'm 31 and I never remember a time as long as I've been out where gay men are just so...feminine.
I'm sick of being told that I have to care or I have to feel about trans issues just because GLAAD decided that this was to be a part of the agenda.
And, like was noted upthread, the most fucked up thing is that they all WANT to pass and be seen as heterosexual, but want to use the LGB community's resources and focus to push their agenda through.
I'm so sick of it. I feel a great connection with lesbians and other gay men. Our fight is similar. I just feel like the trans people are leeches.
r96 Yes many trans people adhere to gender stereotypes, but I have seen/read ones that don't. I see trans-men for example that accept that they are just super feminine men. They don't act super butch or act like some cartoon version of what a man is.
R98 these transwomen aren't merely looking to change their sex organs. They want the whole kit and kaboodle of gender stereotypes that go along with it. And what's more they demand society's validation-- everyone must except them as their desired gender for them to feel complete. Hence the focus on be able to use certain bathrooms.
The trans people are the most homophobic out there.
Does anyone remember the South Park where Mr. Garrison transitions to a woman and then leads an anti gay marriage campaign? Lol
Exactly, R81. Except most of them already vote Republican.
Trams are disturbed and they HATE gay men, especially the black ones
r94, you're the moron. Social conservative views have been linked to low IQ. You Republicans posting in this thread might want to look into that.
I have never met an intelligent person who was anti-trans or anti-gay.
"You know, I'm starting to resent how all of a sudden in the past few years everything has become about trans, trans, trans. They are literally like 2% of the population, but everything in the community is so thoroughly dominated by trans issues nowadays I fear gay guys are losing their masculinity"
ROFLMAO. If anything it is more acceptable for conventionally masculine men to come out than it ever has been.
Trans are Way less than 2 % of population. Gays are only about 5%
So many femme gay guys
R87, feeble minded idiot.
The fact is that you simply cannot be 'born in the wrong body'. It's mythology. Equating it to being gay is not productive for anyone. I understand why the medical community is so eager to get acceptance for this, as the surgeries are incredibly expensive. And hormones are very expensive too. And it ultimately reaffirms sexist stereotypes.
"The fact is that you simply cannot be 'born in the wrong body'."
You can have a male body and a brain that is wired the way a woman's brain is wired (or vice versa)
"I understand why the medical community is so eager to get acceptance for this"
You know more than doctors do? Okay.
You guys talk about trans people the way fundies and freepers talk about gays.
Sorry, but transgenderism is distinct and separate form sexual orientation. Conflating the two perpetuates erroneous and harmful stereotypes. Let each distinct issue be judged on its own merits. The "T" should be detached from LGB.
115 proves the point that this is all rooted in sexism. Brains are not "wired" to be "male" or "female". That's bullshit.
R115, the "fundie" thing is old, and completely false equivalence. Gay is not trans. Period.
Oh, can't we please just STFU about the trans for awhile.
If I just say "Okay, you trans can call yourselves whatever you want, you can be gay, or you can be not gay, you can fuck yourselves with bananas or Blam's erections, and use any bathrooms you want" will you PLEASE go away?
I am that fucking sick of you.
Really. I am worn out by you trans.
"115 proves the point that this is all rooted in sexism."
You're dumb. Of course male and female brains are wired differently.
By the way, Bryan Fischer of the AFA called a teenage trans girl "mentally ill" - nice to know the anti-trans people here have the same attitudes as a far right fundie homophobe!
Go away, R122. Go away. No one wants you here.
"feeble minded idiot."
Well, you're the one with the same atttitudes as far right homophobes...
Bryan Fischer at r123! Go away. No one wants you here.
Go back to the Ann Coulter forums, please.
Oh, dear God in heaven. Just because I don't believe in trans, I'm Ann Cunter or Bryan Fister? I think not, R125.
And why haven't you gone away, to some trans forum where people will appreciate all that you do?
I don't identify with transgender people. I am sympathetic to their cause and support sensible legislation to address it, although I think some of their agenda goes too far. Very few people are transgender, and distinct gender identities are the norm and always will be. I don't think society has to upend all gender distinctions for a very tiny minority. We can accommodate the rare exception but let's not center society around them. Bisexuals and gays for the most part are content with their gender identity and are not asking for society to suppress gender norms beyond romantic orientation. Let's independently fight for bisexual and gay rights, which are more acceptable and likely to pass. Transgender rights are where gays rights were in the 70's. Let's not hitch our train to a separate issue that will take decades to get where gay rights already are. Further, I am tired of people conflating (including feminine gay men) homosexual orientation in men with femininity. Linking it to transgenderism fosters the confusion.
ENDA could have been passed but for the T. Now, it is unlikely to be passed until sometime next decade, if then.
Trans are mentally ill
R131, that just pisses me off.
Gender is social construct. It does not exist in nature. It is something that humans made up when they developed civilizations where people had to live together with some sort of order and heirarchy. There are no feminine and masculine monkeys or penguins. There are male and female monkeys and penguins.
Gay and Trans are two completely different things. One is outwardly focused and one is completely self-contained. If you have two X chromosomes, you are female. An X and Y, you're male. It's as simple as that for 99.9% of the people in the world.
[quote]I support civil rights for people with mental illnesses. Which is what this is. I don't think people should be discriminated against. But this is MYTHOLOGY...people CAN'T be born into the 'wrong' body. It's Unicorn thinking. People believe in lots of things; UFO's, demon possessions, etc. Doesn't make it factual.
[quote]Now there are people saying they are "trans-species", and that they are dogs born in human bodies. I am NOT even kidding.
FUCK YOU, I'M A DRAGON!!!
I love the false equivalency. I am gay. I did not have to spend tens of thousands of dollars, or inject myself with hormones every day, to be gay.
I had a friend who was in therapy, and my friend is gay and femme. His therapist kept insisting that my friend was transgender. To the point that my friend, who struggled with being gay anyway, began to question it himself. People like the concept of "transgender" because it reaffirms sexist stereotypes about behavior being tied to gender.It is also easier for many to accept transgender rather than homosexuality. It amazes me how many parents are coming forward to declare their children "transgender", based on things like the fact that their little boy likes the color pink.
Where I live there's been this upsurge of formerly-identified lesbians becoming "bois". It's some bizarre fad. It seems like every third lesbian I know has now decided she's really "male". And a lot of that is based on behavior..."I like trucks a going to strip clubs and watching football". That sort of thing. It's self-loathing.
Are there really people who are transgender? Yeah, there are people born intersexed, although it's now becoming apparent that this is rare, and that doctors are making this decision speciously. Boys born with a micro-penis are being labeled 'intersexed' because doctors feel no guy would want to go through life that way. Even when the hormones are 'male'.
I embrace GLB people, and everything within that rainbow...butches, femmes, etc. But I'm not going to pretend that a boy is really a girl because he 'feels' that he is a 'girl inside'. I often felt that way growing up because I had no context in which to understand my feelings. Once I learned about gay people, I finally understood. But a lot of gay kids begin by feeling an empathy for the opposite gender, because we don't have a reference point to understand gayness. What's happening, in the rush to label all these little kids as trans and straight, is an effort to wipe out gay people.
Go on Youtube. Trans people
R137 speaks the truth, and I love him for it.
Thanks 138. Love right back to you. :)
For a little while, I thought I was a girl in a boy's body, R139 R137. But that's not what I am. I'm a gay man. Eventually I learned I have what is considered a really nice dick and I just love doing things with it.
I hope your friend (and everyone like him) got away from such a bad therapist (or other bad advice giver).
He did. His friends, myself included, told him repeatedly that he had nothing to be ashamed of, and that he could love himself for who he is. It was difficult for him to embrace being gay, and even harder in some ways to embrace being femme. But he finally realized that his friends love him as he is, and he's very out and proud now.