- OP, Thanks for posting. What do you think of the following comment?
"JonBonet was killed with a Philippine commando garrot after being beaten almost to death. Very few people know how to make a Philippine commando garrot. This garrot was taught to some U.S. military personnel taking jungle survival training at Cubi Point Naval Air Station, in the Philippines. One officer who took that course and therefore knew how to make a Philippine commando garrot is John Ramsey, the father. John Ramsey is too wealthy to do such a terrible thing to his own daughter. So, someone else, probably from another country, probably snuck into the Ramsey's home on Christmas eve and killed JonBonet, and then put her body into a small secret room adjoining the main basement. He or she then painted the door to this secret room until the edges were sealed. The handwriting on the ransom note was proven to be Patsy Ramsey's, but that can't be true: she was too wealthy to do anything like that. The out-of-country killer must have been an expert forger. There was also traces of semen (some of them over a week old) found on JonBonet's underwear. I'm sure that John & Patsy Ramsey and their mature son had nothing to do with JonBonet's death. It had to be that killer from far away, an expert forger, underwear evidence planter, special garrot tying, and secret room door painter who was so quiet that no member of that family heard him or her enter their home, do all those things, and leave. Mystery solved."
- JonBenet's fine! She sends her love!
- Looky what I found in the basement, Officer!
- The lengths people have gone to clear these parents because they were rich is one for the books. Of course they killed her. All that went on while everyone was asleep. lol. What a country.
- Has the D.A. ever been asked why he didn't pursue the indictment?
- I believe they killed her, but I'd like to know WHY?
- [quote]the pageant tyke
[quote]slain pageant tot
This is as bad as Britain's "Sun" tabloid.
- Does anybody want to to recommend a good book about this case?
I'd certainly appreciate it.
- [quote]I believe they killed her, but I'd like to know WHY?
Kids are cunts. Simple as that.
- [quote]Has the D.A. ever been asked why he didn't pursue the indictment?
He's quoted as saying he didn't believe they had anything to do with it.
- [quote]I believe they killed her, but I'd like to know WHY?
My best guess is that Patsy accidentally inflicted a near-fatal head wound on Jon Benet in a temporary fit of rage. The late-night scream the neighbors say they heard might have even been Patsy screaming in horror. Then she staged the strangling and the kidnapping hoax in order to draw focus away from the head wound. Better to save your own life (she would have thought) than to go to prison for bashing in your daughter's skull in a moment of anger.
It makes more sense than any other scenario I can imagine.
- It would be hard to inflict the kind of head wound she had "accidentally"
And how to explain the foreign DNA if one of her parents did it?
- It was a ritual. Done on Xmas, like in Eyes Wide Shut.
- Strip clubs everywhere are backing this indictment. Their supply of pole talent cannot be disrupted.
- DNA evidence was inconclusive and could have been from the maker of the underwear R14. Get a grip on reality.
- R17 yep. The DNA could have come from a factory worker who worked at the underwear plant.
Suppposedly the mom acted really strange when Jon Benet was kidnapped. Like she looked to see the reaction of the cops.
- [quote]It would be hard to inflict the kind of head wound she had "accidentally"
Patsy might have deliberately bonked Jon Benet on the head with a solid object like the heavy duty flashlight in the kitchen that had been wiped clean of fingerprints. A split second loss of self-control is all such an accident requires.
Patsy might have pushed the girl and caused her to fall in the bathtub where she was being washed off after wetting the bed. Jon Benet could have fallen and hit her head on the edge of the tub or on the faucet. She did have a head wound and some say it would have been a fatal head wound had she not been strangled first.
- Oh tiny beauty Queen, will there ever be justice.
- I still say "Jon" was killed because he was a boy and was tired of being made to play the girl to fulfill his mother's pathetic beauty pageant ambitions.
- I've always found the fact that the ransom note was written in detail right there in the house to be very suspicious.
What type of assailant who breaks into a house has the time to casually sit down at a kitchen table and write out a 2-page long note?
- Yes, R22, and why write an extremely detailed ransom note for a child you've killed and hidden in the basement?
And how is it that neither of her parents were worried about its threat of her beheading if they were to call the police? Why is it that when 10 am came and went neither one of them even mentioned the fact that the kidnappers had failed to contact them as they had promised to do in the note?
- John Ramsey didn't sexually abuse his daughter, he is too wealthy. Patsy Ramsey wasn't a perpetrator either, she was too wealthy.
The McCann$ didn't kill Madeleine and hide her body in their apartment or put it in the trunk of their car, they are both doctors and doctors don't do such things, so two of the best cadaver dogs are plain liars!
- R23, and didn't investigators find it odd that the ransom note just happened to mention the exact sum of money that John Ramsey had in his bank account? I think they found it odd that the assailant would just happen to know something like that.
- There was a 9-1-1 call to Boulder police on Dec. 23. That was the motive. Somebody was preparing to drop a dime on somebody in that house.
- Perhaps a little girl who had just learned about 9-1-1...
This book will tell you what happened in great detail:
By outlining his theory in ''JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation'' (St. Martin's Press), which is scheduled to be released to the public on Tuesday, Mr. Thomas has become the first person with direct knowledge of the investigation to publicly accuse Mrs. Ramsey of killing her daughter. He also says he concluded that Mr. Ramsey played no role in the girl's death.
- I thought they found a broken grate in the basement that was the point if entry for an intruder.
That hack John Douglas from the FBI says the parents are innocent because for the mother Patsy said she Jon-benet ate pineapple before bed and there was pinapple in the stomach during the autopsy. He says the note could not have been written by patsy either . If patsy or the father did write the note it would be strange if they specified the exact amount of the fathers bonus check.
Too many unanswered questions. I hope they unseal the indictment.
- Where was Honey Boo Boo that night?
- It's about time someone is looking into this. I've always thought, the brother or the dad.
- [quote] Has the D.A. ever been asked why he didn't pursue the indictment?
That D.A's son was married to that home wrecking whore Rielle Hunter
- Don't fuck with me, fellas. This ain't my first time at the rodeo.
- "Patsy might have pushed the girl and caused her to fall in the bathtub where she was being washed off after wetting the bed. Jon Benet could have fallen and hit her head on the edge of the tub or on the faucet. She did have a head wound and some say it would have been a fatal head wound had she not been strangled first."
Those explanations don't fit the evidence
- The ransom note was the giveaway. Obviously fake. Meant that it was someone in the family. Dad - a molester perhaps? He had kids from a previous marriage. They could have kept mum, but casts some doubt on him. Mom - Psycho, abusive, could have snapped, accidently pushed the kid, etc. Very plausible. Brother - Signs that he was neglected in favor of JonBenet. Signs that she may have been molested elsewhere and tried to engage in sexualualized behavior with him. Or could have just been an accident. He supposedly slept through the whole thing but was heard in the background on the 911 tape. Parents, having lost a kid already, might rationalize not ruining his life. He has stayed out of trouble since then though.
- There is no evidence that John and Patsy Ramseys abused JonBenet or the other kids in the family.
- Brother was 9 and no way he did a garotte or do anything semen related.
Stepchildren were not there (which in itself says something since it was Christmas).
- Patsy probably didn't care for her stepchildren.
- The ransom amount requested was identical to John Ramsey's last annual bonus.
At the time they were trying to determine how many people at the company had access to bonus details.
Hard to believe that this case was never solved.
- "Stepchildren were not there (which in itself says something since it was Christmas)."
Weren't the stepchildren going to the vacation home to be with the rest of the family on Christmas? They were getting ready to fly to their vacation home when JonBenet was killed.
- A family friend? Someone outside the immediate family who might have visited who the family had reason to protect? The boss? Perhaps someone they let into to the home for a sexual encounter with them (Patsy and John) that disappeared downstairs with JonBenet? Were they giving male pageant judges access to her in exchange for wins? She woke up in the night and stumbled onto Patsy having a tryst while John slept?
- Patsy and Jon Benet are buried in a small gated cemetery plot within walking distance to Marietta Square in the Atlanta suburbs.
Jon Benet's grave is very small next to Patsy's and when I saw it there were little whirly things spinning around on it.
You can't get very close to it due to the fence, but I guess that's the point.
- "Those explanations don't fit the evidence "
But it does. The Ramseys hired three private investigators to help solve the case. They kept hiring until they got one who cleared them. I read the report that was leaked from the first team they hired.
They concluded that Patsy killed her. The head wound was consistent with the rim of a bathtub brought on by the little girl falling. The damaged matched the approximate weight of what have been JonBenet's.
It went through the case detail by detail in a methodical precise way. They also concluded that JonBenet had been suffering from long-term sexual abuse. I printed out a copy for someone to read and wish I still had one.
The Ramsesy's have never allowed that firm to speak publicly. Only the one who cleared them.
- R43, At the time of her murder, someone wrote "Daddy's little whore" on a public sign." One of JonBenet's friends also confessed a secret to the police; something she had earlier promised not to tell.
Many suspected that Mr. Ramsey was abusing his daughter, and that Patsy was jealous. Also that Patsy had been abused herself as a child, and ignored the signs. She wanted to maintain the image of a perfect family. A bed-wetting child didn't equal a child beauty queen or a princess.
- I would say there was more evidence of Patsy abusing JonBenet in a variety of ways as opposed to John molesting her.
The semen didn't match any family members, so whose was it?
If John was molesting her, would he typically molest the boy child as well? Or just the girl child?
- Isn't that the theory on Kyron Horman being missing too? That the stepmother snapped and accidently killed him?
The only other theory that I heard was that she sold him in exchange for a hit on the father, her husband Kaine. Or that he was taken as a warning because she owed a lot of money to criminals for other reasons.
- I have to confess the person I printed out the report for was my mother. LOL She was obsessed by the case. I never had much interest in but once I printed it out I couldn't stop reading it. I read the whole thing in a couple of days and it was about a 300 page, double sided PDF. I've been kicking my ass now for about five years for not keeping a copy.
The private investigators also determined that the handwriting was more likely than not to have been Patsy's.
They also wrote a scathing section on their behavior and cooperation level with the police. Noting that they stone walled and tampered with evidence at every chance they got. All of their post crime activities were consistent with someone hiding involvement in a crime. They went through the Ramsey's behavior bit by bit by bit and it was pretty damning.
I think what was most fascinating about the report was how much I kept noting was never in the press. I suspect this is why the powers that be don't want the indictment unsealed. Too much of the sworn testimony probably contradicts public statements.
Fuck me for not having a copy of that report.
- Agree w/R15. Same thing w/the Jodi Arias case. Ritual killing.
- This case was solved years ago.
John Ramsey's secretary was quoted as overhearing a phone conversation in which John admitted that Patsy struck their daughter while trying to hit him in the head. The girl died. These Xtian, rich Repugs covered it up. Badly.
The innuendo is that John repeatedly molested his beauty pageant little girl who was all made up to look like a sultry adult.
Boulder, Colorado police and prosecutors made notorious procedural errors.
Those of us familiar with the local community understand that this tragic child death was handled as an emergency. It was important to ensure that nearby families were safe at the time.
Nobody wanted to explore the dark possibilities within that particular, untouchable family. It's coverage on national news that provided evidence about what really likely happened, and what the family dysfunction was all about.
This case changed forever how at-home child death cases will be handled.
- Truly a family I would never want anything to do with. If I was in college with the boy I would avoid him like the plague.
- "John Ramsey's secretary was quoted as overhearing a phone conversation in which John admitted that Patsy struck their daughter while trying to hit him in the head."
You are placing WAY too much emphasis on hearsay. I seriously doubt he would confess to killing his daughter on the phone.
- [quote]I seriously doubt he would confess to killing his daughter on the phone.
What are you talking about R51? Where did anyone post that he confessed he killed his daughter?
- "Where did anyone post that he confessed he killed his daughter?"
Okay, he wouldn't confess that his WIFE killed his daughter. Why the hell would he confess that to someone else given how they stonewalled the police? In front of his secretary, no less...
No one would ever do that.
- He wouldn't confess to diddling his daughter on a phone call.
- Boulder is a silly little town. People there want to believe they're living in Utopia and, if you point out any problems in the city, they circle the wagons. I've never been surprised that the "murderer" wasn't caught.
- I always thought the mother did it. But, FWIW, I mentioned in another thread that I saw a rerun of L&O: Criminal Intent the other day that was made for DL-- Liza Minnelli as Patsy Ramsey!
It even featured DL perennial Nancy Grace, here called "Faith Yancy."
BTW, Liza was hilarious, "pretending" to be drunk, cig hanging from her mouth, dropping ashes into the roast she was preparing.
Though there were some changes for legal reasons, the ending came down to the brother injuring JonBenet while they were "playing doctor." The dad then finished her off.
The dad also had been the one feeding info to the freak who got extradited and later set up his now-grown son.
- [quote]double sided PDF
- [quote]Why the hell would he confess that to someone else given how they stonewalled the police? In front of his secretary, no less...
Certain lawyers would love to have you on a jury, R53. You're a real keeper.
Nobody said he made a confession "in front of his secretary." That's your scenario. No doubt you're unable to envision someone overhearing part of a phone conversation from another room. You probably can't imagine that a secretary would pick up a phone to listen to a private conversation of her boss when there's something as exciting as a murder case going on. It's beyond your capacity to see how he could have thought he was alone in a building when his secretary returned to pick up something she forgot. There are many ways she could have heard his conversation, but in your next scenario you'll find some way to place her on his lap during the phone call, therefore he wouldn't have made that confession.
- I'm an Atheist, but people like John and Patsy Ramsey make me really wish there was a Hell. Vile, vile disgusting people.
- [quote]The ransom amount requested was identical to John Ramsey's last annual bonus.
Yup. Very suspicious.
- Somehow it was all in the family but since the investigation was so badly botched...what could they do?
I hope everyone who knew them, knew they did it and refused to accept them.
- Well, here's the thing. You have a District Court Judge who absolved the Ramseys in 2008 and new DNA testing supposedly clearing them of involvement.
So what do we make of that?
- It's also bizarre that John Ramsey dated natalee holloways mother.
- What I find odd is that the Boulder Police apparently discovered this foreign, third-party DNA years later that exonerated the Ramseys.
Sounds fishy to me.
- R62, we make of it that wealth and power buy privileges that are best left unspoken by those who allow them and those who benefit from them.
- [quote]Steve Thomas, one of the former lead detectives in the Ramsey case, also stepped into the media arena when he appeared on ABC's Good Morning America, saying he believed that Patsy Ramsey wrote the ransom note. Thomas, who had previously resigned in protest to what he called the "lack of aggressive prosecution of the case," was appearing on the show to promote his own book on the case called JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation.
[quote]During the interview, Thomas described how out of 73 suspects whose writing samples were analyzed by experts in comparison with the note, Patsy Ramsey was the only one who could not be excluded as its author. He also accused Patsy Ramsey of changing her handwriting after the murder. "In the ransom note, almost exclusively the lowercase manuscript a was used, I think, 98 percent of the time," he said. "What was telling was that after the Ramseys were given a copy of the ransom note, the lowercase manuscript a almost disappeared entirely from Patsy's post-homicide writing. Writing samples from Ramseys' personal letters and notes she wrote before the killing contain 732 manuscript a's that look like the lowercase typewritten a, but they are written by hand. She switched to a cursive a after the murder."
- [quote]Where was Honey Boo Boo that night?
Why, bless your heart. Mamma June was at least 2,000 cases of Diet Dr. Pepper away from even birthing Honey Boo Boo Child.
Christmas Day 1996 was however an important day in Mamma's life. It was the day a cousin told her that if'n she was ever lookin' to get poked, that one smoke shop in town that sold pornography featuring Big Beautiful Women was the place she ought to hang out. And was her cousin ever right.
- Here's the Ransom Note - Page 1.
What do you think?
- Nursery Ransom Note:
- Obviously a woman's handwriting.
- Here's one of many pages that analyzes the handwriting. As mentioned above, Detective Steve Thomas believes it was Patsy Ramsey:
- Full ransom note:
- [quote] In November 1997, several handwriting experts determined that Patsy Ramsey more than likely wrote the ransom note. According to a Colorado Bureau of Investigation report, "There are indications that the author of the ransom note is Patricia Ramsey," but they could not definitively prove this assertion.
- [quote]The semen didn't match any family members, so whose was it?
I did not follow the case closely and do not recall reading or hearing about this. Where was the semen found? Were investigators able to determine how old the semen was? If it didn't match any family members, it this not support for the non-family intruder theory?
- R63 I thought I'd read or heard that.
IIRC, they appeared together as a couple on Nancy Grace or Larry King but wasn't sure. I didn't pay much attention since they'd both worn out my interest, as they're both media whores.
- John Ramsey got re-married a year or so ago, I believe.
- There was no semen found.
I can sort of believe the intruder theories UNTIL I think about the ransom note. I have never seen anyone adequately explain that. There is just no way that was written by someone outside of the family (ie Patsy). I don't think there is any way to know who in the family killed her, but you simply cannot explain that note to me as some intruder having written it.
Until that is explained, everything else is a diversion. Intruder theorists like to try to find evidence to exonerate the Ramseys everywhere. Fine, but first explain to me that note.
I've linked a pretty decent analysis of the ransom note.
- How have they STILL not solved this murder? So many mysteries have been solved with dna and the internet. This is just crazy at this point.
That poor girl.. who every did this got away with it.
- It always sounded to me like a harried John dictating the letter to Patsy. It almost sounds like he's talking to himself "now John use that good Southern common sense of yours".
R77 is right. Plus I find it telling that as he got older Burke seems to have pretty much cut his ties with the rest of the family.
- True, R77. A lot of people want to focus on DNA and the intruder theory.
But until they can explain the ransom note, and why this was one of the longest ransom notes in history, and why it appears to have been written in the Ramsey home, nothing else matters.
The ransom note is the key to the crime.
- Every see a part of crazy Patsy's interrogation? She's so full of shit.
- [quote]It always sounded to me like a harried John dictating the letter to Patsy.
A valid theory.
I wonder if the police thought of it?
- That ransom screed is bullshit. "You will also be denied her remains for proper burial"? It reads like a script from a Jason Statham film.
- The woman who gave the party the night of the killing claimed that the next morning Patsy was wearing the same makeup and clothes she had worn to the party the night before.
I can understand anyone dressing in a hurry grabbing last night's clothes strewn about nearby. But the makeup means either she: A.) Slept with a face full of cosmetics fit for a cocktail party (slovenly for a beauty queen who knows all about skin care) or B.) She re-applied a heavy evening makeup while waiting for police and friends to arrive after learning of the disappearance of her daughter (odd behavior for a rich, socially aware woman who is presumably in a state of panic) or C.) She stayed up all night, never removing clothing or cosmetics (too busy tying knots and writing notes perhaps.)
Which do you suppose it was?
- She's a killer.
- Poor Burke. Where is he now?
- A previous DL thread on thos case had an extensive timeline of facts, including contacts that the police had with John and Patsy. They were so successfully avoidant of the police, it's almost incredible. Except for the morning of the murder, ey were not formally interviewed by the police until TWO YEARS after the incident. The gave ultimatums (that were honored), such as agreeing to a lie detector test only if they could choose who interpreted it. It's unbelievable.
My question is, which is more likely: the couple refused to cooperate because they were guilty, or only because they were following legal advice? There has been at least one thread on DL about how you never cooperate with police but get a lawyer to protect yourself immediately regardless of your guilt or innocence because they can trump up charges against you. I remember the thread because my instinct wouldbe to cooperate with the police and ot made me question that.
Linked below is theold thread
- Patsy killed her accidentally and the covered it up. Boulder police botched everything, maybe since the Ramsey's were rich and white....how could they have been involved? After a couple of days there was no physical evidence left tat could convict anyone. Killer parents and shitty police work....sad.
- One thing for sure is that poor little girl is TV ratings gold. Remember a few years ago when the Boulder police announced they'd found the killer in Thailand? At the same time Israel was lobbing rockets into Lebanon and I remember Gingrich being interviewed saying this could be World War III. Then came the Boulder police announcement and goodbye World War III, hello JonBenet 24/7.
- And what you just said yourself proves that you're talking nonsense, r89 - there was no World War III, not because JonBenet was on the tv but because there never was going to be a World War III and Gingrich was just talking crap.
- The Gingrich!
What the hell is CNN doing? Didn't they learn after the fiasco of hiring Cuomo?
- r90 is thick. CNN's coverage of Israel/Lebanon was wall-to-wall prior to the Boulder police announcement. I brought Gingrich up only as an anecdote I remember from the time. Then came the JonBenet news and we were back to the videos of her prancing around at the kiddie beauty contests.
- If I was the girl's father and the case remained unsolved, I would never stop pushing to get the case solved. Never.
Unless I was involved...
- R92, oh, sorry, from the way you wrote it, it seemed that you were implying that JonBenet's story was being used to cover up and distract the public's attention from a far more important story about an impending world war.
You do realise that after a few days of covering a story news channels occasionally switch to other stories?
- "She re-applied a heavy evening makeup while waiting for police and friends to arrive after learning of the disappearance of her daughter (odd behavior for a rich, socially aware woman who is presumably in a state of panic)"
Some women are really, really vain about their appearance and won't let anyone see them without their makeup. Trust me when I say that there are women who, if they woke up in the middle of the night and realized that there house was burning down, would apply a thick layer of foundation and eyeliner before calling the police....
- That's nasty
- Gee, no, r94, I never realized news channels moved from one story to another. Wow, I learn something new every day on Datalounge. Thanks!
- The latest theory is that Patsy accidentally killed her -- John helped with the cover up; Burke was probably aware and felt somehow responsible.
Accidental killing with staging after the fact.
- r98, that makes the most sense. Jon Benet was killed by accident by mom elsewhere in the house. John tied her up to make it look like a deliberate attack. Burke probably woke up during the activity. John dictated the note to Patsy. Boulder Police were called and arrive only to completely mess up the crime scene.
I'm sure they all justified their lies because it was an accident.
- If Burke knows something, the chances of him telling someone are pretty good. That's a big secret to keep for anyone, especially a young man.
- What are John Ramsay's ties to the Bush administration? I've read they exist. I believe the media "muted" J. Ramsay's political reach.
Patsy's so full of shit in R81's linked clip.
- R87, thank you for linking that old thread. It has provided me with quite a bit of reading to do.
A few random thoughts:
Even though children do kill, it seems unfortunate that people have fingered Burke as the perp. I doubt that he knew much -- if anything -- because he likely would have told somebody or slipped up by now -- particularly, being so young. Although children internalize lots of trauma and family bullshit as they age, eventually they usually tell somebody something about it, even minutely -- unless they are threatened or deeply ashamed.
No wonder Patsy appeared to have been up all night: the amount of forethought and preparation involved in that alleged coverup (e.g., repositioning and hiding the body, cleaning up the area, hiding or disposing of evidence, composing the ransom letter [with a do-over!], getting their stories straight, etc) would have taken at least a couple of hours. It is highly unlikely that all of that could have been immediately conducted on the spot (unless we are referring to people who have had practice with behavior like this). That is even more perplexing (and compelling) that the reason for the murder/accident: all of the aftermath prep work.
Why did the Ramseys even speak to the media? And not just once. It seems that they were *often* in the news -- even years after the death. There were multiple follow up stories, including one in which I vaguely recall that they were filmed on a speedboat having a grand old time. Perhaps this was their way of hiding in plain sight. However, they were aware that many people thought that they had done it. Why did they not "lay low"? Did they enjoy the attention, however macabre it may have been? One thing is certain: they stuck to their original story right up to Patsy's death, and none of the family have been known to dispute it since. Fascinating.
- This is a bit off topic, but Burke has a lot of his Facebook page set to public. Under his info, it says he's interested in men and women.
Some call it stalking, I prefer calling it doing research
- [quote]If Burke knows something, the chances of him telling someone are pretty good. That's a big secret to keep for anyone, especially a young man.
Where is Burke? And where's the evidence that he is estranged from his father?
- Just wow. Burke is gay. His favorite cousin is into Brent Corrigan. Burke is pictured as being close to his father, who looks happy and proud with his son... and innocent. This is such a bizarre twist.
I will never stop believing that one or both of the parents killed JonBenet. But now I'm thinking that the bedwetting scenario might be true. Patsy killed her in a fit of rage.
Burke is gay. He's cute, too.
- How do you know Burke is gay?
- Would anyone like to provide a link to Burke's facebook?
- Recent photo of brother, Burke Ramsey, suspected murderer of little sister.
- Well, even in the unlikely event he killed his sister, he sure didn't write the ransom note. So who did?
- There is ample evidence to conclude the mother wrote the note.
- As I posted above, R110, there are some indications that Patsy wrote the note. But it has never been proven. I suspect her myself, but I don't see how it can ever be proven now.
- This is the best online forum for evidence in the Benet murder case. I was on it earlier tonight reading about all of the evidence they have regarding the authorship of the ransome letter (Mrs. Ramsey), including a computer program that guesses the gender of the author based on word choice.
It is in there, I will try to find it tomorrow and post its exact location. It was damming evidence. Mrs. Ramsey DID write the ransom letter.
- I think she may have done so too, R112, so why did they exonerate her?
The DA doesn't want to pursue the Ramseys anymore and has now basically said they are innocent.
- There are several independent analysies of the ransome letter handwriting, but the following link is the most comprehensive.
The mother wrote the note.
- [quote]The mother wrote the note.
If so, why was she never charged?
- Because the Boulder Police were cowed into inaction by the wealth and power of her husband, R115.
- I don't have any experience with ransom notes, but this one seemed really really long. Is that typical?
If a family member did accidentally kill JBR, I would imagine they would have been violently upset about it. Shocked. Guilt ridden. Grief stricken. How could one formulate and write a ransom note in that state?
I accept the fact that parents kill children. But why the overkill here and the over dramatization with the ransom note? It would take a very sick parent to twist and tie a grommet around the corpse of their child. These parents just don't fit that mold. That's why it's hard to believe.
- R117, the whole point of overkill with the garrote and the ridiculously melodramatic ransom note was to divert attention away from the accidental infliction of the near-fatal head wound. It was a trick and it worked beautifully on gullible people like you.
- There is no way that ransom note wasn't written by the mother. Someone in that house killed the girl, most likely by accident, and the mother and father staged the scene. I tend to think it was either the mother or the son.
- See?? People who lie DO get cancer!
- There were reports from the housekeeper that Patsy had long suppressed rage because her daughter wasn't the perfect little Barbie doll and beauty queen she tried to manufacture. Constant bed wetting is a sign of sexual and emotional abuse.
- The DA would have been overwhelmed by the financial ability of the Ramsey's, just in the legal delays alone.
- John was the CEO there was no "boss" except at Lockheed Martin HQ.
- "Constant bed wetting is a sign of sexual and emotional abuse."
A lot of kids who aren't sexually or emotionally abused wet the bed. Bed wetting is not extremely rare.
"Under his info, it says he's interested in men and women."
Hmmmm....we should send some hot guy to seduce him and get some info.
"Because the Boulder Police were cowed into inaction by the wealth and power of her husband, R115."
People wealthier than the Ramseys have been arrested and charged with crimes
- [quote]People wealthier than the Ramseys have been arrested and charged with crimes
People wealthier than the Ramseys have also gotten away with murder.
It's easier to make an arrest in cases where the evidence is more readily apparent. The Ramseys had the crime scene fairly well under control by the time law enforcement officers arrived.
- [quote]Because the Boulder Police were cowed into inaction by the wealth and power of her husband
That could be part of it, but there has to be more to it than that.
- A theory from another thread:
At a certain point, women start pulling away from their daughters, viewing them as sexual rivals for their husband's attention. This is why Patsy Ramsey killed her daughter. When she discovered her husband was having sex with JonBenet, she blamed the little slut stealing her man, not the molester himself.
- R127, theories like that don't tell us anything about the crime scene or the ransom note or why the police have never charged anyone.
One can speculate about the motivation forever, but all that really matters is figuring out how the Ramseys did it.
- Where and when might the garrote have been made?
- I believe they found evidence that part of it had been made using one of Patsy's paintbrushes, R129.
- [quote]She had been strangled with a sophisticated garrote that used part of a broken paintbrush from Patsy Ramsey's paintbrush collection.
- R127 is simply a sick fuck. An insane mother might feel that way but not normal women.
- Wrong, R132. Many other people have thought the same thing throughout the years of this case. R127 is not alone.
And Patsy was hardly a normal woman!
- I had thought that the young son had actually hurt JonBenet. As I remember it, she was dragged down the stairs. An adult would have carried her down but the young son wouldn't be able to carry her.
Perhaps he took her to the secret room but felt guilty and then went to his parents to tell them what had happened. When the parents went to her, she was already near death, so the father used the garrote, because he didn't think she could be saved without brain damage.
Then both parents worked on a way to protect their young son. They didn't want to lose both children.
I really believe the little boy was responsible for the death of his sister.
- And the garrote was used prior to death? Not after (part of a cover up)?
Would Burke have even known about garrotes?
- What made the secret room so secret? Was the house custom built for Michael Jackson originally or something?
- I read somewhere that in CO a 9yo (the boy's age) couldn't be charged with a crime. It said that the police and prosecutors were always careful about the distinction between saying Burke could have been the killer versus Burke could have committed the crime of murder.
Unless the kid was a psychopath from birth, I just don't know about a 9yo doing that. What would it have been? Accidently hitting her over the head? Both were being molested and it was sex play gone wrong? Jealousy over the attention that she got?
- R132 represents the problem with DL and debate in general. He disparages someone who discusses a legitimate evo-psych theory by calling the person a sick fuck. You, 132, are a retarded asshole.
- [quote]There were reports from the housekeeper that Patsy had long suppressed rage because her daughter wasn't the perfect little Barbie doll and beauty queen she tried to manufacture.
That swarthy blabbermouth knows perfectly well that all my angel had to do was simply remember to change key on the bridge of "The Good Ship Lollipop" and none of consequential unpleasantness would have been necessary.
- Was Boulder, Co wiped off the map in retribution for this horrible cover-up?
- Regarding the so-called evo-psych theory, again, it never ceases to amaze me how a bunch of gay men, most of whom have a deep antipathy towards women, can be such amazing experts on the female psyche, especially in a heterosexual context, which they have very little knowledge of. Bunch of geniuses.
- R132 don't blame the messenger. I'm just telling you one theory I read. Like, others, I don't find it all that novel or far-fetched.
R133 and R138, thanks for the defense.
R134, your idea is similar to the fictional TV explanation on L&O: Criminal Intent I talked about at R56.
- R141, Many of us, including this straight female, are relaying insights long speculated about Patsy's motives.
- r141, analysing strangers while criticizing those who analyse strangers.
- Oh lord, the gay men hate women troll is here.
- Why would Patsy want a doll instead of a living breathing child?
- With all the similarities in the writing I don't know how anyone could think Patsy didn't write that note. It had to be a sick fuck, Patsy or John, who tightened that garrote around her neck. It was pretty well dug in there.
- Or a 9yo boy terrified by her squirming?
- wtf 147 !!! ???
- That's an autopsy photo of JonBenet's neck after the garrote. A little boy didn't do that.
- R143, you mean you agree that Patsy was jealous of JonBennet because her father was having sex with her, Patsy saw JonBennet as her rival, considered her a slut and so killed her?
Fail, r144. The two situations are not comparable. Just a few of the differences: I've probably spent weeks if not months of my life on this board, have a very good understanding of the types of attitudes and beliefs expressed here, and have encountered many gay men and straight men in my life. Also, it's a well-known documented fact that sexism and misogyny exist. This certainly isn't to say that all men are misogynists or misunderstand women, but some do.
On the other hand, there are no documented cases of a mother being jealous of her daughter because the father is sexually abusing the child, let alone killing her daugther because she wants to displace her from the father's sexual affections. Add to that how no one here can claim that they know for a fact that John Ramsay was sexually abusing his daughter, so to extrapolate from a non-fact that Patsy was jealous of JonBennet, thought she was her rival and a slut and so killed her is really stretching what we can say. Especially since it's not completely clear that Patsy killed JonBennet, and, even if she did that it was not an accident but premeditated murder.
- That ransom note analysis was compelling. I've also read another analysis that said the handwriting is consistent with styles that would have been taught when she was in elementary school. Also that the writer of the note is a woman. Also, someone from the southern U.S. Patsy could not be excluded as the writer.
I'll look for that link but the mother is definitely the writer. All of this happened in the house that night amongst the family and there was no intruder.
- the exclamation points in the letters nail Patsy.
- Patsy definitely wrote the note. If Burke is really gay, one of you bitches needs to trick with him, get him drunk and high, and get him to spill the truth!
- I've been watching from above, and hence, it's been enlightening to observe your homosexual innuendos. Grow a brain, R154, the kid's only into pussy.
- I'll never forget Patsy and her psycho, attention-starved call in to CNN (?) during the coverage of Princess Di's death with the "I understand the grieving for Diana because JonBenet was AMERICA's people's princess" line.
GUILTY as hell.
Is it true the Ramsays were way high up the pyramid, friendly with the Bushes?
- But someone I respect, keeps insisting that it had to be a pedophile who was stalking Jon Benet and would have known how to get in and known about the secret room.
Could it have been a grandfather?
- What the fuck is this about a secret room? Was it hidden behind a bookcase or something?
- All I needed to know that the parents were guilty: The day JonBenet was "kidnapped" in Boulder, her father was arranging for a private plane to fly the family to Atlanta.
- Oh so anyone who thinks Patsy did it is misogynist because women statistically don't kill? Welcome to the contemporary age, when empowered women DO kill, just to prove how manly they are (see Margaret Thatcher). Patsy was very much of that type.
- As investigators always say, you need to look at the totality of the evidence.
And when I look at the evidence in this case, more of it points towards the Ramseys than away from them.
- [quote]The ransom note. The three-page message from "a small foreign faction'' demanded the odd sum of $118,000 for sparing JonBenét from beheading; it urged John Ramsey not to "try to grow a brain'' but to "use that good southern common sense of yours'' and be rested before making the "exhausting'' delivery.
[quote]Detectives quickly determined that the note had been written on a pad of paper found in the Ramseys' house, with a Sharpie pen also found in the home.
[quote]Convinced that the ransom note had most likely been written at the house, investigators next took writing samples from dozens of people, including John, Patsy Ramsey and Burke Ramsey, John Ramsey's children from his first marriage, former friend Fleet White, Bill McReynolds, who portrayed Santa Claus at the Ramseys' Christmas party, neighbor Joe Barnhill, and others.
[quote]Handwriting experts from CBI eliminated John Ramsey as the note's author, but they couldn't do the same for Patsy. Although they collected at least five handwriting samples from Patsy, along with "historic'' samples of things she wrote before JonBenét's death, they could neither eliminate her as the writer, nor say definitively that she was.
[quote]Chet Ubowski of CBI wrote of one of her samples that "This handwriting showed indications that the writer was Patsy Ramsey.'' Ubowski told investigators that the samples she gave "do not suggest the full range of her handwriting.''
- Everyone knows Burke did it.
- Some are pro-life; I'm pro-penmanship.
- Ok. Let's agree that Patsy wrote note...and move on...
Now lets discuss the semen....what are the facts and opinions? What was the fatal act: strangulation or head blow?
- "The Good Ship Lollipop"? Well, honey, that's ur problem right thar! No wonder y'all never won nothin'!
- R166: Well, pardon me if I tried to keep the program wholesome by teaching my precious angel the boundary between being a pert coquette and being a blubbery tart.
- We still discuss this, even though it happened years ago. It feels like the answer must be right in front of us but we can't see it.
- Seems to me y'all wuz teachin' ur little angel some thangs that she shouldn't of been a-larnin. Ain't none of that stuff goin' on in mah house while Sugar Bear kin still roll me in flour and look fer the wet spot.
- Look at JR's weird behavior since then: running for Congress, dating celebrities. Sociopath.
- Wow, how daft are you, r160? What I said, since you're clearly not able to understand things that might require a little more thinking than usual, is that anyone who thinks Patsy did it because she was jealous of JonBennet because her father was having sex with her and claims that this is a theory backed up by evolutionary psychology certainly has a weird understanding of women.
You're throwing in another dimension - women kill to prove how manly they are (I'm not sure quite who Thatcher killed - but you're really spinning this out). Now, that's supposedly another aspect of women's psychology that certain DL males think they're such an expert on: women kill their daughters because they're jealous that the father desires the daughter sexually, women kill to prove how manly they are. Thank you for proving my point.
- Look at his mysterious career. Born in 1943, Michigan State grad, career military until 1989 when suddenly he is given a lucrative private sector job that makes him millions (shades of Chuck Hagel). The ransom note is structured to implicate others: knowing Ramsey's bonus but not knowing he is not from the South, etc. Trying to implicate somebody at his job.
- Jonbenet was never taught a key lesson. Ladies pinch, whores wear rouge.
Patsy was trash
- [quote]gay men, most of whom have a deep antipathy towards women...
Wow, I think we know who the "sick fuck" is now.
wow, you've presented an interesting theory. What if her murder was to frame a competitor? Ramsey may be enough of a sociopath to sacrifice his daughter for that. And his history is mysterious.
- It's so symbolic that she probably killed her daughter (deliberately or not) and then died of ovarian cancer.
Can anyone recommend the best books about this case?
- I would recommend Burke's book, if he ever wrote one.
- I think Burke killed her or knows who did.
His sister was killed in his own house and a few days later, he showed no fear at all and he no longer even thought of his little sister as even a part of the family.
It was as if she had never even existed for him.
- [quote]Everyone knows Burke did it.
Nonsense. None of us knows any such thing. That is just one of several theories. He may certainly know something, but there's no proof that he was the killer since he was a child at the time, and he obviously didn't write the ransom note.
I still believe it was one of the parents, as the evidence above indicates.
- [quote]His sister was killed in his own house and a few days later, he showed no fear at all and he no longer even thought of his little sister as even a part of the family.
I don't remember this happening.
- [quote]Look at JR's weird behavior since then: running for Congress, dating celebrities. Sociopath.
It's true that John Ramsey ran for Michigan State House. Can't remember for what party. Republican?
But by dating celebrities do you mean Natalie Holloway's mother, Beth? Anyway, he is now married to another woman.
- This is the link that said Burke had no fear, even though his sister was killed in his home.
It may have been linked already?
It would seem odd that the child felt no fear. Even more odd that John and Patsy felt no fear for him.
- But how does that prove he committed the murder? Perhaps he's just a weird child, like the rest of the family.
- I didn't say he committed the murder, that was someone else.
But I do suspect him. I think perhaps she had annoyed him and maybe he pushed her down and she hit her head? I don't know. I do know there were three people in that house when she was killed and the murderer sat down, in comfort and wrote some weird elaborate ransom note.
What would any reasonable person think...
- R184, I myself think the parents did it or covered it up. That's why I posted all those handwriting analysis links that seem to show Patsy Ramsey wrote the note.
The evidence has always pointed to the involvement of those in the home and yet the DA('s) refuse to take any action against the Ramseys.
- r13 = kate mccann
they should call it the child killers playbook
- She may have written the note, but it could have been any of them.
- Any of who?
- It's so frustrating how the Ramseys were able to block the investigation, control the crime scene and escape justice to this day.
- They didn't even give up the clothes they wore that night until a year later.
- How could that have been allowed, R190? Is that really true? That's what I find staggering. Surely the police must have known that the clothes could have been washed by then and cleaned of all forensic evidence and blood?
- It's really true. And the historical handwriting samples they got on Patsy had to be given up by friends. She would only provide current ones. Some of the handwriting samples were even gotten in a clandestine way. A friend went and took pictures of some and gave the pictures to the police.
Like the PIs THEY hired said. Everything they did after the murder was the behavior of someone covering up a crime.
It's the same thing that happened to the Skakels when they hired a reputable PI to investigate the Moxley murder. They too came back with an inconvenient report.
- And yet DA Mary Lacey has gone out of her way to exonerate them now and even apologized to John Ramsey for suspecting them. The DA now claims that an unidentified bit of DNA in the house points to an outside murderer somewhere out there.
- If they really are connected to the Bush family, then it was either a botched molestation with the consent of the parents or a ritual sacrifice. The Bush family is big into child swapping and using molestation as a way to indoctrinate/control the next generation and also have a sure fire way to form an iron clad pact that neither party can get out of. Both have proof that the other is a child molester. Ritual sacrifice is also practiced, particularly where it looks like the child won't fall in line and might spill family secrets. I think the big pedophile ring that the Bush family is mainly associated with is run out of Oklahoma.
- The DA would have never got a conviction because the police completely botched the investigation from the very beginning. And what did John and Patsy do? Called a bunch of friends to come over and the police let them pollute the crime scene. They didn't question the family separately...the very first thing any cop would know to do.
It was as if the cops had never been through the police academy. Craziest investigation...Keystone Cops would have been better.
- r10, "A Mother Gone Bad." Brilliant analysis. The title is from the name of Patsy's softball team, "Mothers Gone Bad."
She did it. She was very jealous of her husband in many ways.
And Patsy herself was groomed to be a beauty queen. IYKWIMAITYD.
- But JonBenet had become Patsy's obsession...she had nothing else, why would she kill her obsession?
- The reality turned out to be nothing like the fantasy, R197. JonBenet could never live up to Patsy's expectations.
- Read Joyce Carol Oates' novel [ital]My Sister, My Love[/ital]. It's essentially about the Ramseys. with a finger pointing at someone specific at the end, and a theory as to why that person did it.
- Don't be coy...who was the finger pointing at?
- [quote]But JonBenet had become Patsy's obsession...she had nothing else, why would she kill her obsession?
Obsessions are not healthy.
- R200, the title of the book is a major clue.
- Thanks, it sounds good but it's still just a novel.
- R200, sorry, I didn't want to ruin it for anyone who's going to read it.
- I'll probably read it.
- Unrelated, but J. C. Oates' book "Sexy" is really good -- it's about a gorgeous high school swimmer who's uncomfortable with the attention he gets because of his looks (he's basically unaware that he's beautiful), and gets involved in a controversy concerning a gay teacher.
- R206, that sounds like something from when I was in high school. I just assumed that there was a boy like that and a gay teacher at every high school, that it was something of a common occurrence.
- [quote]The DA would have never got a conviction because the police completely botched the investigation from the very beginning.
Why do you think the new DA, Mary Lacey, who took over from Alex Hunter, decided to exonerate the Ramseys a few years ago and apologize to John?
- I think a lot of these people do not like to admit they made a mistake.
That is also why it is a struggle to get some incorrect death penalty cases overturned
- Which mistake was made, R209?
- The way the whole case was handled, R210. Plenty of mistakes mentioned on this thread.
- But is the reason they have now 'exonerated' the Ramseys because they think they are innocent, or because they think they will never have the necessary evidence to charge them?
- One thing I know for sure, if a DA got a conviction, he will never ever, ever, admit a mistake (or even worse) was made.
- No evidence, or no will power, and no pressure.
- Seems like John Ramsey is very smart. I've always gotten the impression that he knew he could ride this out. And he has.
- There's a great book by one of the primary investigators that recounts all the errors and power plays of the investigation. I forget its title
- Is it the book by Detective Steve Thomas, R216? He's the one who accused Patsy Ramsey of being the murderer.
- This is sad as hell. I can't believe that family got away with murdering that little girl. The voices in the background of 911 call that included Burke, who was supposed to have been in bed plus the fake note is all I need to know that these sick fucks killed, perhaps by accident, JonBenet.
- Makes me think of the South Park show when Butter's parents get together with the Ramseys.
- What was the name of, and whatever happened to, that crazy pedofile who admitted to the killing who was hiding out in Thailand somewhere and was later brought to the US? He had a really strange looking face. I'd like to read more about him and refresh my memory.
- R220, his name was John Mark Kerr. The idiotic DA, Mary Lacey, brought him back to the US and paraded him across the world stage only to later decline to charge him after finding out his DNA didn't match anything in the house and may not have even been in the state at the time of the murder.
- To those of you really interested in the case, here is an old q and a with Detective Steve Thomas, who has been mentioned a few times on this thread. He published a book detailing his experience as a detective in the investigation's early stages and the obstacles he was up against with the DA's office and everything else. The bottom line is that there was a lot of bad blood between the police (who almost all believed that the Ramseys were guilty) and the DA's office (who were sympathetic to the Ramseys), and a lot of the problems from the investigation stemmed from the divide between the two camps.
I believe that someone in the family, although it is impossible to know exactly who, killed her and then Patsy wrote the ransom note and staged the crime scene. It all comes back to that note. There are other tipoffs as well, like fibers from the sweater Patsy Ramsey was wearing were found in the tape in the garrotte and the so-called "pineapple evidence." Pineapple was found in Jonbenet's upper intestine, which indicated that she had eaten pineapple shortly before she was killed. The Ramseys denied time and time again that they fed her pineapple around this time. This is really only the start of it, but it all can be distilled down to the ransom note if you can't process everything else -- there is no way an intruder wrote that.
- [quote]it all can be distilled down to the ransom note if you can't process everything else -- there is no way an intruder wrote that.
If that's the case, why do you think some of the police officers and DA's believed it was an intruder and have gone out of their way to exonerate John Ramsey?
- Who was this other male, not a family member, that some of the DNA that was found belonged to?
- Never identified, R224. Supposedly some mysterious stranger that's out there in the world somewhere, as yet undiscovered.
- Everyone knew about DNA back then. Those parents could have opened the envelope of a Christmas card that had been licked shut by some old friend who never had a criminal record and rubbed that DNA from the envelope all over the girl as a subterfruge.
- Subterfuge. I knew that didn't look right.
- Possibly, R226. But it's probably something more along the lines that after the crime scene had been so contaminated by so many people and the evidence handled and degraded in the way it was, that it's hard to know what the heck this tiny bit of unidentified DNA may mean.
Several people, including Dr. Henry Lee have said that it could have gotten there by someone who handled the underwear in the factory (he's made underwear tests showing similar findings), or by one of the medical examiners.
- What didn't look right, R227?
- Wow, now that would take some real planning, r226. Although, I'm not sure DNA works quite like that.
Not that I don't think the Ramseys were involved, mind you. But I wonder if there was something more going on.
Charlie Brennan, the Colorado journalist suing to open up the secret indictment, has written some excellent articles on the case. This one from January indicates just how much the local DA colluded to get the Ramseys off the hook, perhaps even in violation of the law.
- Did the Ramseys call anybody BEFORE they called 911?
great question, and one that I had — toll records, phone records, are so simple and Police 101. But for some reason i couldn’t make that any clearer to Hutner/Demuth/Hpofstrom in order to obtain those elementary warrants. And since the “small foreign faction” were going to sue a telephone to make the contact, the warrant would have been easy to obtain, through the nexus. But once again, when I left the investigation, records still had not been obtained
- [quote]There are other tipoffs as well, like fibers from the sweater Patsy Ramsey was wearing were found in the tape in the garrotte
Wow, I don't recall ever hearing that before. It seems pretty damning.
- [quote]how much the local DA colluded to get the Ramseys off the hook, perhaps even in violation of the law.
And I think it says at one of the links above that DA Alex Hunter had business or real estate dealings with John Ramsey's attorneys?
Conflict of interest!
- Are there any cell phone or long distance records for the Ramseys for December
1996? And if so, do they offer any useful clues?
In the book I talk about my frustrations in the obstruction in our efforts to obtain such records. In the Touch Tone investigation (peripherally related case) we found many, many useful records that may/may not have helped the Ramsey investigation. But we
were prohibited from exploring them.
So as to Dec 1996 records – in hindsight, a heck of a lot more I wish we would have explored. When I left in 1998, people called in Dec 1996 long distance, had never
been contacted . .
Prohibited using what excuse?
The excuse was pathetic. Demtuh, for example, as well as hofstrom, suggested asking
the Ramseys permission. It was like the way servants treat the Queen of England, and it bothered me terribly. The right way to have done it was through the legal process of
search warrants. heaven knows why it took so long, as they had not been procured, part of my frustration, before i resigned.
- Unfortunately it just seems too late to do anything about it now. Patsy Ramsey is dead, so obviously there will be no more information coming from her, and John and Burke refuse to co-operate or say anything.
The best we can hope for is that Burke says something once his father dies of old age and he is no longer afraid of speaking out.
- [quote]The best we can hope for is that Burke says something once his father dies of old age and he is no longer afraid of speaking out.
Don't count on that if he was the one they were covering for.
Remember the recording from that morning contains Patsy's voice saying to her son, "We're not speaking to you!"
- Has it been proven that Patsy was talking to her son? As far as I remember, the Ramseys deny Burke was even present when the phone call was made.
And what does that statement mean? ("We're not speaking to you!")
- For pity's sake. R236, Burke did NOT kill his sister. There is no compelling physical evidence to suggest that he did.
He was asking questions in the background during the 911 call. His mother didn't mean that she and his father refused to speak to him because they were mad at him for killing her favorite child. She meant, "pipe down while I am on the phone talking to someone else."
- R238, many people, including Chief James Kolar himself in his new book, suspect Burke was involved, so R236 is hardly alone in suspecting him.
- [quote]And what does that statement mean? ("We're not speaking to you!")
Must I explain everything, y'all?
Obviously, I was addressing JonBenet down on the floor. The end of the sentence ("because you're as dead as your chances of snagging the Miss Snow Flake sash next year") was implied.
- Why lie about him being awake?
- r238 writes "There is no compelling physical evidence to suggest that he did."
Which means absolutely jack shit in a crime scene that was contaminated from the moment the police arrived, let alone whatever, in addition to writing the ransom note, the Ramsey's did to cover-up before the police got there.
One or more of those three- John,Patsy or Burke Ramsey intentionally or unintentionally caused the death of JBR.
Perhaps Burke didn't cause her death, but I always wondered how the Ramsey's could manage never to break and it always came back to one thing-Burke.
- I read that he has told friends that he doesn't really remember much of what happened surrounding JonBenet's death.
- How could a child forget the most vivid part of his childhood, R243?
- Let this baby Rest In Peace
- [quote]Let this baby Rest In Peace
Peace? Poor JonBenet has to put up with Patsy in the afterworld since she's kicked the bucket too.
- R245: THE POSTS ARE COMING FROM SUBURBIA!
- Are you saying we should stop trying to catch the killer, R245?
- I don't remember most of my childhood, thank god. It's possible, trust me.
- Was your sister brutally murdered in your own home, R249?
- One of the prior links has a great minute by minute account of that day. The Ramsey's said Burke was asleep until te woke him way after te police arrived. He was taken to a friends house and as he was walking to te car, never asked why there were 5 police cars in front of the house. Because he knew good and damn well his sister was dead.
- [quote]I don't remember most of my childhood, thank god. It's possible, trust me.
Did you or your parents kill any of your siblings?
Just a hunch but that memory might linger . . .
- Exactly R252
- I had two alcoholic, abusive parents. My mom died the week before I started middle school from the drinking, and my dad died at the start of high school from the same thing. Not murder, no, but no bowl of cherries either.
- My theory is that Patsy was a female pedophile which is rare and why the case has gone unsolved. Everything points to her. She was molesting her daughter and in an incident of rage killed her accidentally. Everything after that is a cover-up orchestrated by the mother.
The reason everyone is talking about John and Burke is that no one considers the idea of a woman molesting her daughter.
- The poster who signs notes as Mrs. Patsey Ramsey, formerly of Boulder has always creeped me out. This troll is everywhere.
- The Patsy Ramsey troll is funny but definitely works better on other threads when she appears unexpected.
- R254 You don't have to explain how rough you had it. Your cool. I always felt it was a stalker pedophile that had been in that house. Not the Ramseys. The only cover up was bad police work
- [quote]I always felt it was a stalker pedophile that had been in that house. Not the Ramseys.
Where's the evidence of that? There's no proof of an intruder, and most of the clues point to an inside job within the home. What type of pedophile would sit down in someone else's home and write out such a long note without fear of someone coming downstairs and being discovered?
- [quote]How could a child forget the most vivid part of his childhood
He slept through the whole thing. When he woke up his sister was gone. He was shuffled out the door fairly quickly and spent most of the day being watched by others.
As the 9-year-old son of rich parents, he would have been reasonably well-treated by law enforcement if he had actually killed his sister, even if he had done it on purpose.
There was no reason for the parents to behave the way they did for years afterward just to protect a child whose age alone would have half-exonerated him. They were protecting themselves because either one or both of them killed Jon Benet then both conspired to cover it up.
- Most likely explanation is Patsy got frustrated and pushed her or Burke got mad and knocked her over the head with a flashlight or something. Patsy or John quickly decided that she was too damaged to salvage (intentional word choice) and finished the job. The only thing unexplained is the semen in the house that didn't match anyone. Was the house recent construction? Were contractors or workers around that might have snuck off to the basement to j/o? Cops planted false evidence to help the Ramseys?
- So they tried to blame it on his old military buddies?
While in college he met his first wife, Lucinda von Pasch, also a student at Michigan State, and they were married in July, 1966 after graduation. Seen after their marriage, John enlisted with the U. S. Navy and was accepted into the Officer Candidate School in Rhode Island after completing officer training, he was transferred to California and eventually to the Philippines for two years of active duty at the Subic Bay Training Center. While John was stationed at SBTC he received his pilot's wing".
the ransom note was signed: Victory!
Nobody ever put that together?
- [quote]The only thing unexplained is the semen in the house that didn't match anyone.
I don't think it's ever been proven that they found semen.
- Interesting about the initials/acronym, R262. I can't remember whether that one has been proposed yet. There have been lots of others, though.
- People thought at the time SBTC meant Saved By The Cross. Here is a link to other theories.
- [quote]There was no reason for the parents to behave the way they did for years afterward just to protect a child whose age alone would have half-exonerated him.
I'm not sure about that. If it got out that Burke had killed JonBenet, it would have destroyed the image and career of the Ramseys' perfect family. I think they would have wanted to keep the crime under wraps.
- It would have ruined his life. It kind of did anyway.
- R255, but you always think every child is killed by a secret female pedo. Were you molested by a female as a child?
Did JR ever mention the acronym could stand for his old training buddies? Did the Ramsey parents ever suggest the old military training center? If not, then they know.
- Relatively speaking her head wound was massive.
- Others have suggested that S.B.T.C. stands for Some-Body That Cares.
- Sucking Balls, Taint, & Cock?
- [quote]Did JR ever mention the acronym could stand for his old training buddies? Did the Ramsey parents ever suggest the old military training center? If not, then they know.
Interesting. I'm not sure if they did.
- What do you make of this from R265's link?
[quote]What Does Use That Good Southern Common Sense Mean?
Carnes Opinion. "The author of the Ransom Note instructs Mr. Ramsey to "use that good southern sic common sense," an obviously inaccurate reference as Mr. Ramsey was originally from Michigan, whereas Mrs. Ramsey was originally from West Virginia." (Carnes 2003:25). Carnes inferred from this that the RN writer was unlikely to have been Patsy Ramsey, who would not have made this mistake; by inference, any close friend of John Ramsey's should have known better than to use this phrase in connection with him.
- Unless the mistake was deliberate to cover their tracks.
- On another site I am reading, someone wonders if John Ramsey was written out as the writer of the ransom note too quickly and whether it was he who actually wrote it.
- This is interesting:
The most important element of this section relates to the ransom note writer’s use of the personal pronoun “you” and their linguistic attempt to connect with the reader. This type of writing is indicative of a female author. Female writers favor personal words such as “you,” “her” and “she,” and relationship words such as “for,” “with,” “in,” and “not.” Mr. Shlomo Argamon, a linguist and computer scientist at the Illinois Institute of Technology in Chicago, states, “Women have a more interactive style. They want to create a relationship between the writer and the reader. Men, on the other hand, use more numbers, adjectives and determiners - words such as “the,” “this” and “that.”
After much research, Mr. Argamon and a colleague, Mr. Moshe Koppel, designed a computer program that can determine the gender of an anonymous author of fiction writing with 80% accuracy. Their findings were first published in the April 2003 edition of the journal Literary and Linguistic Computing. It has been reprinted in other magazines such as Nature, and referenced in many newspapers such as The New York Times and The (Melbourne) Age.
After performing my own analysis on the ransom note many years ago, I recently came across a web site which used a simplified version of the algorithm developed by Argamon and Koppel. I typed in the Ramsey ransom note text to obtain a gender analysis from the computer program. The result confirmed my earlier analysis, and that of many others. The Argamon and Koppel program said the ransom note author was female. In fact, the score was 1077 (female) to 464 (male).
- Please read the book by Steve Thomas. I read it in one night and could not put it down. it illustrates what went on perfectly.
- the parents didn't crack either because:
1. They both played a part in it somehow or
2. They are covering up for their kid
- There was a DL thread on this case where the dialogue centered around the idea that John Ramsey was part of a molestation ring and that JonBenet was used and passed around to other prominent men. There seemed to be some interesting theories around this idea and there was also a discussion about a ring in Chicago was it, and a link to James Guckert/Gannon and how he might have been a child in that molestation ring. But all the rings are supposed to be connected in some way.
Anyway it was an interesting theory.
- Can't stop reading this. Thanks for the link!
- R279, don't start with molestation rings. You sound like that crazy with the conspiracy theories. Chicago? Really?
- What if Patsy woke up in the middle of the night and realized John wasn't in bed with her. She heard muffled sounds of distress down the hall. Grabbing her robe and a golf club from John's bag, she walked slowly down the hall. When she looked into JonBenet's room, there was John, abusing her. She swung the club, meaning to hit her husband, but he turned and ducked at the last minute and the golf club smashed into her daughter's head.
- [quote]Please read the book by Steve Thomas. I read it in one night and could not put it down. it illustrates what went on perfectly.
He sounds like a reliable detective overall, but some of the Ramsey camp have attacked his credibility and claimed he is wrong.
- I think the molestation ring is unlikely, too. Anything is possible of course, and there certainly seems to have been some sexual abuse, but there's no proof that anyone else was in that house that night or that anyone else killed her.
It's important not to make a case overly complex. Stay focused on the key evidence and clues and where it leads to.
- Is it to late to prosecute those who worked in the DA's office, for failing to do due diligence in their duty, and for possible conflict of interest, in not investigating the Ramsey's guilt more thoroughly?
- I would say so, R285.
And the idiotic former DA Mary Lacy even exonerated the Ramseys and apologized to them. She had no clue what she was doing. She's the one who brought John Mark Kerr back from Thailand in front of the whole world only to release him when she realized she had no evidence against him.
- [quote]Perhaps Burke didn't cause her death, but I always wondered how the Ramsey's could manage never to break and it always came back to one thing-Burke.
Hmmm... that is compelling. If I operate from that premise, why hasn't Burke broken? Specifically, why didn't he break as a child? My understanding is that the cops interviewed (interrogated?) him for six hours. Even if he had a parent or attorney present (likely), unless the interview-cum-interrogation was as softball as they come, or the parent/attorney created massive interference, would Burke not have squirmed? What average 9-year-old would not buckle under those conditions?
[quote]How could a child forget the most vivid part of his childhood?
1. MAJOR repression. He blocked it out because it was so disturbing, upsetting, and traumatic.
2. He wasn't involved and didn't see or know anything. It's easy to forget something for which you have scant knowledge.
3. He's lying.
- Compelling argument, R260.
- [quote]2. He wasn't involved and didn't see or know anything. It's easy to forget something for which you have scant knowledge.
Yes, although even if he doesn't have direct knowledge of the crime itself and wasn't present when it happened, he lived with John & Patsy for many years, and still knows John, so would be aware of how they reacted to the case and what they think about it.
- [quote]Yes, although even if he doesn't have direct knowledge of the crime itself and wasn't present when it happened, he lived with John & Patsy for many years, and still knows John, so would be aware of how they reacted to the case and what they think about it.
The quote upthread (I don't feel like looking) was something similar to: "He told his friends that he doesn't remember much from that night/time" (paraphrased). That is far different from living with people who may know something. Perhaps the subject was forbidden at home (I would expect that), and Burke wasn't privy to any further information from his parents about that night. If Burke truly was not involved and was blocked from any knowledge, the statement he allegedly made to his friends would he true: he honestly remembers nothing (or little) because he knew so little in the first place, and was never provided anything of substance afterwards.
- But does Burke have his OWN theory as to who did it? He's grown up around one of the most famous murder cases in history, so he must have some opinions on it.
- If your parents murdered your only other sibling, covered it up and got away with it - you'd be frightened as fuck. I assume he's buried those memories deep deep deep down.
- [quote]But does Burke have his OWN theory as to who did it? He's grown up around one of the most famous murder cases in history, so he must have some opinions on it.
Absolutely. However, an "opinion" is not the same as "memories". The question was: How could Burke forget? One of my three arguments is that he could forget if he knew nothing in the first place. Now, his OWN theories, however... THOSE would be interesting to hear or read...
- I would guess his own theories would mirror his parents' thoughts / theories they've shared with the media.
The parents came across extremely united in the years following the crime. If one blamed the other I would expect body language to reveal some degree of tension. I recall several interviews with Larry King and they were convincing.
Their team spirit indicated to me either both were equally guilty or they were protecting Burke. If Burke had killed her they likely wouldn't have the burden of guilt and could come across as not being deceptive.
- Has anyone read
Perfect Murder, Perfect Town.The Uncensored Story of the JonBenet Murder - Schiller Lawrence
Is it good?
- In Steve Thomas' book he discusses that Patsy told her priest that she had something to do with the murder. of course, the priest is not allowed to disclose such matters.
- Does Thomas ha'/ve a video presentation? One author of the books isn't reliable.
- Then where did Steve Thomas get that info, R296?
Someone on DL reported John Mark Karr is trans and living in homeless shelters in Seattle? I believe his being brought to the U.S. was part of a deliberate campaign to further obfuscate the facts in the case or maybe to conceal a news event happening that same week.
- IIRC, wasn't there talk of Burke crying in the background of the 911 call and being told to hush?
- I read Steve Thomas's book, and I don't remember him saying that about the priest, R296. I already recommended his book "Jonbenet" further up thread, but I can't speak highly enough about it. Even if you don't buy his hypothetical scenario of how the killing occurred (it involves Patsy accidentally killing her in a rage over a bed wetting incident), you leave the book feeling that someone in the family did it and covered it up. You can get it on Amazon for one cent plus shipping.
I am posting a link to a thread with analysis of the ransom note. The linguistic analysis is okay, but take a look at the images on the page scrolling known samples of Patsy's handwriting with the ransom note! Those exclamation points and their placement!
- The Ramsey's were smart, educated people. Don't you think if you were composing a ransom note that it would cross your mind that the handwriting would be a tip off to the police? Wouldn't an intelligent person try to disguise their handwriting?
John Ramsey had been reading MindHunter, a book written by an FBI agent about tracking serial killers so he would have had such a detail on his radar.
- Was JonBenet sacrificed to the devil?
- R301 The same FBI agent that wrote mindhunter analyzed the evidence in the case and cleared the parents.
Personally, I think he's a bit of a hack as I said in the upthread.
- If we assume that the death was an. Accident committed by the Ramsey's? Was the trigger that she wet the bed? The molestation?
I think we can safely rule. Out Bush and the Illuminatis...
- She did try to disguise her handwriting, R301. The ransom note handwriting looks different from her everyday handwriting, but the key is that there are certain similarities (such as the placement of exclamation marks, leaning of certain letters, and the use of certain atypical phrases, such as "and hence") that she used in her real life correspondence and the note that give her away as the author.
- I'm curious, what is the legal justification of hiring different low firms to represent individual family members rather than having one law firm represent the entire family. The Ramsys hired 5+ law firms for various family members.
- No one seems to be able to prove that Patsy wrote the note, R305. That's the problem. It's a possibility, and as I provided above, there are even linguistic programs that say the author of the note is a woman. But it has lead to nothing. The Ramseys have now been cleared of the crime by Mary Lacy. So this case is all but over barring some bombshell revelation.
- [quote]Has anyone read Perfect Murder, Perfect Town.The Uncensored Story of the JonBenet Murder - Schiller Lawrence
The review I read in the New York Review of Books back in 1999 said that it's basically just a huge compendium of all the newspaper articles and reports on the case with very little organization and analysis to it.
- r301 I don't know that much about the case but I think you're giving these people too much credit. Assuming the killing was an accident, people under pressure and in a hurry make mistakes, some more some less but it's not like they had a lot of time to think it over. Even if it was planned, it's not like they are some mastermind, experienced killers. People almost always make mistakes. They tried to change the handwriting as people here mentioned but patterns of speech are a very strong thing, just like body language - very hard to change or completely change.
From everything written here, it seems that almost all they did made them suspicious and pointed to them as being involved in the killing and cover up. Seems to me that what got them off wasn't their "brilliant" cover up but 3 things:
1) The place where it happened. Had it happened somewhere else the results could have been different.
2) Their money and connections.
3) Law enforcement that was dumb, incompetent, maybe corrupt and very much in their favor. At the very least because of being partial to this family or very bad at their job, they made such a mess of everything, they made it virtually impossible to put them on trial later, even by those that weren't incompetent and knew they were the guilty ones.
They simply got lucky.
- Read this and you'll be convinced it was Patsy.
- [quote]They tried to change the handwriting as people here mentioned but patterns of speech are a very strong thing, just like body language - very hard to change or completely change.
If the handwriting points to them, why do you think they have defenders, including former DA Mary Lacy who exonerated them in 2008?
- [quote]Has anyone read "Perfect Murder, Perfect Town.The Uncensored Story of the JonBenet Murder" - Schiller Lawrence Is it good?
I read it years ago when it first came out. It's a good summation of the details of the murder, the investigation and ensuing media circus. It never takes a side regarding the Ramseys guilt or innocence, just lays out all the facts. Avoid the TV movie with Marg Helgenberger and Kris Kristofferson. Even though it's based on the book it's a mess.
- Wow. Conspiracy freaks and shut-ins really made a beeline for this case on forums with the sex ring conspiracy. Sign of psychosis and onset of schizophrenia is sad. Evident in those who want to believe they are privy to exclusive, inside info. Witchunters.
- r311 Like I said, I'm far from being an expert on this but I kind of said why in my post (imo). If you're asking in general why murderers have supporters, you should address that question to psychiatrists. Even the worst of humanity have supporters.
In this case it may also be another thing that contributed to them getting away with it. People don't want to think that something awful can happen in "the perfect family" (regardless of whether they are perfect at all). Seems like disbelief that anyone in "such" a family could commit murder (and the rest covering up for it), is some sort of defense mechanism - "people like them don't do such things so we are safe". You see that in cases of rape when still so many victims are being blamed for it still. You know, if they somehow "brought it on themselves and I don't do those things, it won't happen to me".
You saw a version of that in the Boston bombing case when so many are trying to make excuses for the shit - "he's young, he was influenced, he was a victim too, he had no reason because he was so "westernized" blah blah.
People don't want to believe normative, attractive, successful people can do awful things because that makes life even less predictable. You can't trust anything and anyone anymore.
You see it in all the rape cases by athletes in college - "why would successful, handsome, young guys need to rape"?
You see it everywhere.
It at least plays a part in people refusing to believe such people could commit awful crimes but obviously, there were other reasons too.
- r311 Something I forgot to add. You ask why a DA would be so desperate to let them off the hook? Because these bitches cover up for eachother? Because they fucked up so bad and don't want it exposed? Would that surprise you that they don't want their failures and incompetencies exposed even at the price of letting killers/criminals get away? Careers to save?
- R307, a "bombshell" could come in the form of having the secret indictment opened up, which may also raise more questions about why the DA at the time quashed it. If the indictment isn't opened up, then that will also raise many questions.
- I don't think they will let the indictment be opened.
- Not opening the indictment will lead to even more questioning, investigation, speculation, etc. It would be highly suspicious.
- It doesn't matter, R318. It's always better not to let information like that come out and take the criticism instead of revealing what might have really happened.
- She probably was tired and snapped, being "cursed" with scatological children and all. You lose it on your pets for their mishaps but kids, you can talk to. I agree lil' Burke is probably on the Spectrum.
- R318, Hi Burke!
- Some wonderful person made a font out of Patsy's ransom note.
I still have it.
- A font?
- Yes, apparently, Patsy's ransom note contained all 26 letters. So someone scanned it and created a font.
- What's the purpose of the font?
Earlier in this thread I posted a link to a computer linguistics program that broke down the words into masculine & feminine word choice and highlighted each in a different color.
It showed the ransom note author was most likely female.
- R319 is writing what governments/establishment always thinks - and that is likely why the secret indictment will not be opened up.
- The purpose of the font is to make a joke about everything - isn't that the purpose of the internet?
- The autopsy showed JonBenet had a broken hymen ( digitally not with penis) along with traces of blood around her vagina. In addition there were fibers from a blue cotton towel that was not found in the house. Patsy was one sick Bitch.
- Is there a likelihood that additional information and details re: the case will come out once John Ramsey is deceased? Will more people talk?
For those asking about books to read, go to the forumsforjustice links people have posted. It's detailed information re: the case. I can't pull myself away from it. The more I read the more unbelievable the crime is.
- R329: can u summarize what u have read?
- On January 8, John and Patsy took Burke to the Child Advocacy Center in Niwot, Colorado, through arrangements made by the Boulder Police department, to be interviewed by Dr. Suzanne Bernard, a specialist in child psychology. As is customary in interrogations of children, Dr. Bernhard played a game with Burke throughout the interview and the entire interview was videotaped.
When left alone with the psychologist, Burke appeared to be at ease and even told the doctor that be felt safe, even though he did say that he had not wanted to come that day! Dr. Bernhard thought it was unusual for this child to feel safe. "People in this entire town didn't feel safe with the concept that there was someone running around that could be snatching children, and this was his own sister and happened in his own home. Generally speaking, a child who goes through this kind of trauma, where a sibling or a family member has been killed, they don’t feel safe.
Burke described his father as quiet and that he was "always at work", and that his mother "worked as a mom'. The thing he liked most about his mom was that she gave him lots of hugs and kisses, and the thing he liked most about his dad were "planes". Throughout the interview he showed little warmth towards his family, but at the same time was very protective of them. According to Burke, the worst thing they did was not buy him, expensive toys. Dr. Bernhard explained that most children in interviews will discuss things about the family that angers them even if they love them, but Burke appeared to have difficulty in opening up about his family, similar to children who can't say things, because they feel that there are some things they shouldn't say.
Social Services had previously provided Dr. Bernhard with some history on Burke which indicated an ongoing bedwetting problem, but Burke denied this saying that it happened a long time ago. Children are usually honest about this in interviews, and Dr. Bernhard wondered why Burke was not.
Many of Burke's other responses also created areas of concern for the doctor. Burke displayed an enormous amount of lack of emotion, almost to the point of indifference, which Dr. Bernard explained may be attributed to shock, but could also have been a lack of attachment to his family. Since his mother had appeared very emotional when she brought Burke for the interview, Dr. Bernard thought that perhaps Burke could not deal with the family’s emotions and had therefore just withdrawn. Even in response to questions which should have elicited strong emotions, he remained non-expressive. When asked “How have things been since your only sister died?”, Burke responded, “It’s been okay.” And when asked if he missed her, he said, “Yep.” Burke continuously told Dr. Bernhard that he tried to forget about things and just play his Nintendo.
'When asked to draw a picture of his family, he drew a father figure who was distanced from Burke, a mother figure which was the smallest figure in the picture, and JonBenet was not in the picture at all. Dr. Bernhard interpreted the drawing to suggest that Burke felt his father was not emotionally available to him and that his mother was insignificant and did not have a great deal of power. Dr. Bernhard thought it extremely abnormal that JonBenet was not in the family picture at all, since her heath had occurred only 13 days prior. Most children continue to include deceased siblings in family drawings years after the death because it is too devastating for them to think about the loss. Burke also told Dr. Bernhard that he was “getting on with his life.”, another very abnormal reaction for a child who had so recently lost his sibling.
When specifically discussing the crime, he related that he did not hear any noises that night and that he was asleep, but he admitted that he usually hears when someone opens the refrigerator door downstairs. Dr. Bernhard asked what he thought happened to his sister. Burke, showing the first signs of irritation during the interview, responded, "I know what happened, she was killed.” Burke's explanation to the doctor was “someone took her quietly and took her down in the basement took a knife out or hit her on the head." He said that the only thing he asked his dad was "where did you find her body", a highly unusual query from a child considering the possible questions a child might ask about the death of a sibling.
Dr. Bernhard felt there needed to be more follow-up with Burke in the discussion of sexual contact. The only show of emotion by Burke, other than the irritation with the questions about the actual crime, was when Dr. Bernhard began to ask about uncomfortable touching. Burke picked up a board game and put it on his head an action indicating anxiety or discomfort with these types of questions and that there was more that he was not telling her. Dr. Bernhard asked Burke if he had any secrets, and he said, “probably, if I did, I wouldn't tell you, because then
- Has technology improved enough to reanalyze the 911 tapes to see if Burke can or cannot be heard on them?
- The psychology of the surviving family members points to their guilty knowledge.
Consider: How do any of you feel about your domicile when a critter like a mouse, a bat, or just a cricket is found inside it? You feel violated! Creeped out! Like, WTH happened to my safe haven?!
Now consider how these three (yes, I include Burke, who was disturbingly NOT perturbed) reacted to an alleged MURDERER, or even MURDERERS, KILLING INSIDE THEIR VERY HOME! AND SUPPOSEDLY ON THE LOOSE AND WATCHING THEM!
They acted completely indifferently to that scenario. Not one show of horror, terror, frenzy, hysteria, denial. No; they were all preternaturally calm, except when accusing the police and media for being "unfair" to them.
- Great post R314 , so very true.
Something to think about... the Ramseys moved from Atlanta to Boulder in 1992. Before the move, a massive renovation was completed, including the addition of the entire third floor. Also included was the construction of the "Wine Cellar" (WC) where JonBenet was found in the basement. This WC was built INSIDE of the boiler room and was obscure... it was nearly impossible to just stumble upon it, one would need to know it was there in order to find it.
Oddly, the WC never actually held any wine. Strange, don't you think? What would be the point of spending the extra time and money constructing that WC if you didn't intend to actually stock it with wine? It almost makes a person wonder if that room had ever been intended to be used as a WC at all. IMO, there was MUCH more going on in the Ramsey's home and lives than we can ever imagine.
The WC has always been a red flag for me. Someone with intimate knowledge of the home had to have been the murderer(s). JR & PR are obviously participants in the cover-up but I am not yet convinced that they actually killed JBR. I am also not convinced that Burke was involved, though I think he knows more that he has revealed. I have wondered if JBR's murderer(s) was someone known to the Ramseys, someone powerful that they were afraid of. The ransom note, to me, seemed coded and mocking, a "joke" that only JR would understand. It makes little sense to us but he sure gets it. IMO the Ramseys know exactly who killed JBR. And I do NOT believe her death was an accident.
- quote: "Perhaps most interesting of all is a peek at the new book in the Star tabloid for the week of March 7 - 14 which reveals that Patsy had two strange premonitions of disaster in the days before Christmas. The first involved the lookalike doll that Patsy gave JonBenet as a Christmas present. Seeing it in its wrapping carton suggested, to Patsy, JonBenet in her coffin.
The second premonition was more subtle but goes directly to the heart of the case. Patsy claimed that she liked the purple of the Easter vestments and chose to use purple as her Christmas tree colors that year. In the book, Patsy reveals that she realizes now she had unconsciously introduced death into the Christmas celebration by using the color that signifies Christ's sacrifice, rather than his birth."
- [quote]Was JonBenet sacrificed to the devil?
You're probably being facetious, but if evil exists, it's people like the Ramseys. They killed their daughter and got away with it. I think it was either physical abuse, sexual abuse or both, and she died accidentally but at the hands of one or both of her parents. I don't believe the son was directly involved.
- The Ramsey's also looked like complete creepsters which also doesn't help their case. Patsy in particular.
- Just reading any book or story about this creeps me the hell out. The whole thing has a sick, evil energy to it. I am surprised John Douglas,who was hired by the Ramseys, has maintained their innocence, even writing in one of his books about unsolved cases that an intruder did it. Douglas is the most well known, reputable criminal profiler. I'm really surprised he could be bought by John Ramsey.
- John Douglas has an evil air about him.
Premeditated. JonBenet was likely the one who called the police Dec. 23.
- I can't be bothered to read this entire thread.
No doubt, JonBenet's death was a tragedy.
What few comments I have read, in particular R331 really shed some light on what happens when you introduce pop-psychology into criminal investigations.
You can clearly see how had the day-care sex abuse hysteria in the 1980s and early 1990s.
I'm surprised there are some interviews with neighborhood dogs and cats to help determine who might have killed JonBenet.
- Burke Ramsey probably suffered from gender confusion and killed his sister, his rival, in blind rage. In his mind, he was the pretty princess, not her.
- I agree with and probably know you, R340. I recognize you.
Below I added a link. I was busy and young when this tragedy occurred so I'm just reading it now.
After scouring that justice forum and many links presented there, I know now that Burke isn't responsible but Patsy is. I don't think SHE was sexually abusing Jonbenet. That would probably be the Dad or some other familial male.
Patsy believed that myth that women can have it all and she over extended herself. She also was always cleaning up after the children's accidents.Chronically late to her appointments and they were waking up early to catch a flight on a private jet. She was booked solid for weeks afterwards and had the strain of knowing the cancer could relapse so she probably lost it on her kid when she had yet another accident. She was overtired from wrapping gifts and the stress of the holidays as her husband left all of the responsibilities pertaining to the home, to her.
I found this from Wiki answers. It's probably your best answer and the truth.
- [quote] there are no documented cases of a mother being jealous of her daughter because the father is sexually abusing the child
Some of us won a motherfucking Oscar for it, bitch.
- I am so pissed off that Patsy killed JonBenet. I had plans to steal her batons before the finals in our next pagent
- Oh please R341. According to you, who hasn't read in depth, everybody's motive is jealousy and envy added with the corundum that everyone is/was secretly gay. That's projection on your part.
You forgot to factor in the stress levels involved when one is well off. Wealth comes with the curse of a heavy load when more options are available. She never stopped and took a break during the stressful holiday season. She had to pack up the family and leave on an early flight for a whirlwind of merry making. Her kid pissed the bed again and she was just exasperated and snapped. Maybe she had a few drinks at the Xmas party that night. We've all done things we regret while drinking. She never took a break. You'll never get this because you've probably never been stressed with college mid-terms and finals or had access to wealth. You've probably been in first gear your whole life and couldn't imagine the stress involved in being an achiever. You represent the slacker mentality and project your shortcomings onto the wealthy as a "have not".We know your type, secretly happy when our friends take a fall. The charity case friend who takes the help and gifts of better off individuals but the first to kick them when they're down. Kato Kailins of the world. Frau haters on this board are so transparent. We've all had experiences with your type and are sick of hearing your suicidal threats when things don't go your way. You want everything but don't know how to work to get everything. You don't want to put the work in but will cry about being a "has not". This is what the French fear for their children if flaky slackers like you are allowed to adopt our children. The French know you. I can't stand anyone who lives in France but I have to say, they're usually right on the money coupled with gold standards. They're sluttish people just like you, so they know you're out there. You're chronically living off of someone else, be it your parents or boyfriend/husband but your energy spent on this board going in circles is the reason many of us come to DL.You're not here because your back went out from working so hard,resting on a heating pad. You're consistent on wasting your time and days away here and we just can't look away. We're not your therapist that you should really be seeing.You're right up there with our death hag fetish.Slap! Snap out of it!
- [quote]jealousy and envy added with the corundum that everyone is/was secretly gay
- [quote]Dr. Bernhard asked Burke if he had any secrets, and he said, “probably, if I did, I wouldn't tell you, because then
Then what?! Don't tease us, r331!
- [quote]The more I read the more unbelievable the crime is.
In what way?
- [quote]They acted completely indifferently to that scenario. Not one show of horror, terror, frenzy, hysteria, denial. No; they were all preternaturally calm, except when accusing the police and media for being "unfair" to them.
Hmm. Interesting. Their behavior was weird, according to many investigators.
But weren't there a couple of occasions when Patsy was interviewed on T.V. where she broke down crying & screaming and warning people there could be a murderer on the loose?
- Then they wouldn't be secrets. Duh.
- Why did Patsy give her little princess two boys' names? JonBenet! Cray-zee!
- How could the Ramseys intimidate the prosecution?
Threaten to move the business out of Boulder (Colorado had recent experience with hard times)
Threaten them with JR's military connections
- And I think Steve Thomas has confirmed in one of the above interviews that DA Alex Hunter was friends with the Ramsey attorneys and had business interests in common with them.
- R353 - there was a section in his book where he says the DA had left a number where he could be reached. When Thomas called the number it was the law firm representing the family. This was in Day 1 or 2 in the investigation and Thomas knew it was off the rails then.
- OMG! These idiots are commenting using their real names. Embarrassing!
- R346, all I did was give away that I'm on pain pills and have some of the finest pieces of corundum. You would just die!
- What real names, R355? And what's wrong with someone using their real name in a message forum?
You can't be bothered to read the thread or apparently anything on this subject yet you think yourself superior to those who have.
Ignorance is bliss, I suppose.
The case wasn't fumbled by keystone kops. It was covered up like none I've ever seen before. Yes, the DA saw to it. Yes, they were friends, as were all of the elite in the community. They hindered the investigation at every turn.
What many of you aren't focusing on is the FACT that Jonbenet was continuously sexually abused. JB had been taken to her pediatrician at least 22 times in her last 3 years. 30 in total, as far as I can find. The doctors interviews state that she has recurring yeast infections/inflammation to her vaginal area DUE TO NOT WIPING HER ASS correctly, which her housekeeper contradicts.
She said that JB didn't wipe herself, that she would call out when she was ready, and anyone who was available would do.
The pediatrician only discussed this when asked after the ME's report was made public, brushing it off to bubble baths, depending which interview.
I don't take what I read on a blog as truth so I looked up the interviews. The JB sites are correct.
Also, I believe Burke was also sexually abused.
Still wetting his bed at 9 yrs and smearing feces.
Patsy was a sick, controlling monster. When Burke said that he would not usually wake up unless he heard the refrigerator open was a red flag. They weren't alowed to eat anything without permission. Text book.
Why, if she did 'snap', would they go to such lengths to stage the murder in a sadistic/sexual way?
She had been sexually abused that night and for years. IF it was an accident, they had to make sure to cover for the abuse.
Not much was made of it, of course, but they didn't know just how much their 'friends' could cover it up.
I don't understand how this can be an accident, as in Patsy losing control. She died from strangulation after an enormous blow to the head. Did you see that photo of her skull?
- Any child in the lower classes would have been removed from the home after about 15 doctors visits.
- [quote]I'm surprised there are [sic] some interviews with neighborhood dogs and cats to help determine who might have killed JonBenet.
Hey, R340, leave me out of your human clusterfucks. \t
- [quote]You forgot to factor in the stress levels involved when one is well off. Wealth comes with the curse of a heavy load when more options are available.
You're so deluded and wrong it's almost funny, R345. Please shut the fuck up and stop embarrassing yourself.
- One thing and I don't know if this is crazy but I have heard that when a woman gets a serious head injury, it might somehow translate to her vaginal area.
Also, wet wipes will cause irritation for a child or woman, too much alcohol or soap isn't a good idea as it's bad for natural ph balance.
- [quote]Also, wet wipes will cause irritation for a child or woman, too much alcohol or soap isn't a good idea as it's bad for natural ph balance.
That's some crazy shit, right there. Everybody knows that women who don't use baby wipes are unclean.
- r313 why does it bother you so much that someone would mention sex ring? They exist, there is trafficking of children all over the world. The notion is not fictional or crazy. Perhaps you should look into why you get so unhinged at the mention of it?
- I regret that she had but one life to give for her cuntery.
- [quote]One thing and I don't know if this is crazy but I have heard that when a woman gets a serious head injury, it might somehow translate to her vaginal area.
Oh my dear fucking lord.
- Patsy, Burke, and John were all fisting that girl. The maid was tightening the garrote while they did it!
- I'm not sure R363. I know when I bump my elbow my balls hurt all day. So your theoretical, scientific question certainly seems valid.
Why did R345 go off on R341 for making a lame joke? Was R345 supposed to be amusing? I can't tell anymore these days. Especially on a thread like this that draws outsiders in like moths to a flaming flamer.
- I agree that there is no way this was an accident. How could it be? Per the autopsy report, we know that she was (1) strangled with the garrote and (2) suffered a blow to the head resulting in a sizeable skull fracture.
Let's go with #1 first: strangled with the garrote. I think we can all agree that JBR wasn't running down the hall and just happened to trip and land onto a garrote that then twirled too tightly around her neck. The use of the garrote and the damage to her vaginal area was clearly deliberate and sexually deviant. So, no accident there.
And #2: The skull fracture. Let's say someone in the home had either accidentally or purposefully, for example, in a fit of rage, struck JBR or pushed her hard enough to make her head strike against something. One would think that the person who inflicted the damage would have reacted with horror to what they have done and would have left it at that. They would have called 911 and then explained that it was an accident, whether it was or not. Perhaps they would have staged a little, perhaps they might have even claimed that an intruder was in the house and JBR was an unfortunate victim who happened to get in the middle of a fight or attack. With their wealth and connections, the situation could have been manipulated in favor of the Ramseys and the JBR case would have soon been a distant memory. That makes the most sense in an "accident" scenario. BUT... that is not what happened in the JBR case. WHY ALSO SEXUALLY MOLEST HER AND THEN TORTURE HER BY STRANGLING HER WITH A GARROTE!?! Why would that be necessary for a cover-up? Why write a damning, self-incriminating ransom note? Why all of these unnecessary bells and whistles???
It just doesn't make sense. JBR's death was brutal, agonizing, and degrading. The ransom note oozed hate towards both JBR and John.
None of it adds up. There are pieces of the puzzle still missing.
- "On Dec. 27, Pam Griffin found a telephone message from Patsy's sister Polly. "Patsy needs you right now." Griffin was the seamstress who made JonBenét's pageant costumes and was Patsy's confidante about beauty pageants. At the Boulder home of John and Barbara Fernie, friends of the Ramseys', Pam, a former registered nurse, touched Patsy's skin and realized she was dehydrated. She brought Patsy some water and made her drink it. She then told her to lie down. Hours later, Patsy finally took Pam's advice. Patsy then touched Pam's face. "Couldn't you fix this for me?" she asked. Pam thought she was delirious. It was as if Patsy were asking her to fix a ripped seam. "Patsy said something like, "We didn't mean for that to happen'," Pam would say later. Pam couldn't say why, but she remembered feeling as if Patsy knew who killed JonBenét but was afraid to say."
- An indictment is generally the most barebones uninformative piece of paper one can ever hope to read.
Here, I'll spare you the suspense.
It will say
The grand jury indicts the Ramsay's for murder in the 1st degree having been committed on x date in the county of x in Colorado.
- Alright then, maybe John Ramsey was involved in something very shady? Maybe he crossed the wrong person while doing something illegal?
So to get even, these Columbia Drug Dealers, tortured and killed his little girl? Is that it?
- John Ramsey worked at Raytheon for a time and they deal with a lot if arms dealers.
- im thinking the father was abusing everyone in the home. sexually, physically and emotionally. the sons behavior holds so many of the answers. smearing shit and peeing the bed is a red flag for sexual abuse. his drawing of the family, with the mother far away and very tiny, shows she was weak and distant. its odd that JB wasn't even in the drawing. maybe they kept the children separated as much as possible? when asked what the son loved about his father "planes." I assume when he gets on one and leaves? the mother clearly wrote the letter, but I doubt she came up with it on her own, the husband probably forced her to. usually the male in the relationship is the one to "take charge". I could see a man writing the note, unless he forced the woman to do it. he was probably down in the cellar making sure she was good and gone, taking out every last ounce of anger on her. I hope the son eventually comes forward. probably when john dies and he knows hes safe.
so sad and scary.
- So it has something to do with Mossad?
- She didn't "Just snap." Someone called 9-1-1 from the Ramsey house Dec. 23 and when the police checked, they were told everything was a-okay.
- No R376, but it is clear that John Ramsey is part of a traitorous elite who have been made millionaires without actually having to do anything that would earn those funds because of things (or people or secrets) they either know or did during their military career.
- [quote]I can't be bothered to read this entire thread.
But you felt qualified to comment on it?
- The Ramseys were rich Republicans, and had political ties. They killed her. How can anyone believe otherwise? It's impossible. I still can't believe people work overtime to make up these extravagant scenarios to protect them. It's like claiming that the sky is green.
- Patsy had a really weird relationship with JonBenet. Patsy's sister and Patsy would talk about JonBenet growing up to be Miss America, which had been their own dream as children.
I'm not sure Patsy saw JonBenet as a human being. She was more like a living doll to her, a toy. But JonBenet had a mind of her own, she talked without being asked to, she wet the bed, etc. I think any time JonBenet exerted her own will it was frustrating to Patsy. Have you ever seen what a young, immature child does to a toy that doesn't work like it's supposed to? They get frustrated and slam it onto the ground. I think something like that accounts for the head wound.
The sexual abuse (ongoing? first time?) and the garrote though, I don't know. Was Burke far enough removed from Patsy's influence, because he was a boy, that he was treated differently by her? If John was the abuser, than shame on his adult children for not stepping in and preventing it from happening again to another generation.
- It's all that Skull and Bones crap too. Bunch of Satanist pedophile nonsense.
- the handwriting analysis will sell you, though.
- one theory about jonbenet's vaginal abrasions & infections ( with numerous trips to the doctor) is that patsy was scrubbing her daughter too vigorously. patsy was angry at the bed-wetting and wanted her daughter to be clean and perfect.
i didn't realize that burke wet the bed too.
jonbenet didn't like the doll that patsy
had gotten her for christmas.she sassed
patsy at the christmas party.it added to patsy's stress at getting ready to live for michigan.
i think that patsy went ballistic
when jonbenet wet her bed. patsy violently dragged her into the bathroom, shoved her and jonbenet hit her head on the bathtub like what killed baby matthew eappan (the louise woodward nanny killer case).
jonbenet was still alive (hence the 911 call)
but patsy realized that jonbenet might be
able to tell the EMTs that her mother pushed
in the moment of panic, the parents conspired
to finish her with garrote and make it look
like she was kidnapped. they couldn't turn back.
if john were molesting both kids, patsy
would use this fact to blackmail him into helping her cover up what she did to jonbenet.
- typo correction:
finish her off with the garrote
- R385, l believe the 911 call happened two nights before the murder. It was simply an indicator that things were awry in that household.
- R331 your information was interesting but suddenly stopped. Was there more? You gave no link. It was bloodcurdling.
[quote]I have read, in particular [R331] really shed some light on what happens when you introduce pop-psychology into criminal investigations.
Since when did child psychology become "pop" pychology?
We all agree that "recovered" memory testimony is highly suspect, but Burke can't, or won't, remember anything at all.
You're delusional if you don't realize there was something very wrong going on in that household.
I tend to believe Burke repressed what he knows/saw/heard, as opposed to a child being involved in his sister's murder.
It's entirely possible he hurt her in some way, and the parents covered for him. But the forensic evidence points to the parents alone.
- [quote]l believe the 911 call happened two nights before the murder. It was simply an indicator that things were awry in that household.
Interesting. Some have claimed that the 911 call earlier in the week was someone pressing a wrong number on the phone, but it's another intriguing idea.
- R345's post is the creepiest thing on this thread.
- Corundum is a metal on the periodic chart of elements.
- I love it R380....rich Republicans? Rich Democrats are sooooo squeaky clean LMFAO
- I think Patsy was in denial about the sexual molestation. She walked in on John molesting JonBenet. Flung something at him or tried to hit him. Missed and hit JonBenet. She's covering up the molestation and he's covering up the homicide.
- Agreed, R390. Wealthy people have added stress (because being poor is like an extended vacation, apparently) so they have an excuse to kill their kids that "slackers" don't...oKAAAaaayyy...you gotta wonder about the people behind some of these posts.
Also: "The French know you". Someone apparently typed that sentence earnestly.
- Somebody needs to write a book about R345.
- "I can't stand anyone who lives in France but I have to say, they're usually right on the money coupled with gold standards. They're sluttish people just like you, so they know you're out there."
More R345! Where'd this loon go? I need more posts for a proper diagnosis.
- I agree, R390.
R396, Don't forget: "This is what the French fear for their children if flaky slackers like you are allowed to adopt our children."
- R345's rant would be commonplace if it were from a man and didn't say the French were right about something. We have these angry entitled white males from the Bill Clinton generation all the time. Their mothers spoiled them and did a poor job with toilet training, and they've near destroyed our country as a result.
But R345 being a woman, well, it's a whole different thing. France has legal gay adoptions, so I don't know where that came from. It sounds kinda Oprah nervous breakdown territory. But I think she would be too savvy to claim that the rich are to be excused because it is so HARD being rich, so much WORK.
Obviously they can hire people to do their work so the statement makes no sense. Nor did Patsy just "snap." This little crime was as premeditated as a bank robbery. As for our being "slackers," running around like a chicken with your head cut off is not "work." It's lunacy.
- How do we know R345 is a woman?
- The new Mrs. John Ramsey.
A 2x bankrupt fashion designer.
- R388 - the post was entirely speculation and generalizations.
There is nothing in the post to document the speculation - really they weren't conclusions.
The idea that you can infer or draw conclusions by taking behaviors you might see over the entire population down to an individual is pop psychology.
It isn't therapeutic.
But it makes for some great reading.
- [quote] The new Mrs. John Ramsey. A 2x bankrupt fashion designer.
JR certainly has interesting taste...
- So his second wife is a much younger woman who dresses like a child beauty pageant contestant. DANGER WILL ROBINSON
- r392, try Googling "Republican pedophiles," and get back to us.
- The anti-Republican fanatic can ruin any thread.
Anyway I bought JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation by Steve Thomas. I'm 25 pages in and already you can see why they didn't prosecute. The DA would have looked like a fool losing a case that should have been a slam dunk if the DA followed proper procedures and didn't botch the investigation by coddling the Ramseys.
One creepy thing: A piece of evidence they took was the Christmas card JonBenet gave to her father. It was signed "the best gift I could give to you is me." ugh.
- If you unfolded the card it actually said "the best gift I could give to you is me... little cunt!" She was little, her grammar wasn't that great.
How about we go sit on her grave with a Ouija board, see if she'll tell us what happened?
- Third wife, r403; he had two children from his first marriage to a woman his own age, then two more with Patsy, who was 13 years younger than him. He's almost 70 now; wonder how much younger this third one is?
- Is the house still in the Ramsey family?
- No, r408; they sold it to a group of investors at a loss, and they took a bunch of heat for wanting to make a quick buck on it and wound up deciding to donate any profits they made. It's since been resold and is now on the market again; it's pretty much unsellable, even though it's been substantially remodeled and the basement room she was found in has been concreted closed.
- (The investors took the heat, not the Ramseys.)
- Call me a Frau, but I cannot believe the Ramsey's had anything to do with their daughter's death. The crime scene was just too violent. If it had been an accident they would not have needed to stage a crime scene with such viciousness. It would have taken a massive blow to the head to crack the skull as the autopsy photos show. What about an elaborate set up? Have their ex- friends ever spoken about the case? What about Fleet White?
Weird about the size 12 panties found on JBR.
- You're a frau. They killed their daughter and covered it up, or Burke did it and they're covering up for him. Personally, I'm in Camp Patsy Did It.
Evidently, you do not own a television set so bully for you. If you did own one, you would have seen countless stories - both fiction and non-fiction - wherein the murderer sets up the murder scene to look like a kinky sex crime, a burglary, a strange intruder, etc. It's done to deflect suspicion from him/herself.
Then there are those lucky duck homicidal maniacs who get away with it because people "just can't believe" that they could have committed such a gruesome crime. But I wouldn't know a thing about that!
- agree with R412
- I wonder if anyone has reported any unusual activity in the house? Ok, who is in Boulder and can go up to the door and ask for DL?
- [quote]Call me a Frau, but I cannot believe the Ramsey's had anything to do with their daughter's death.
But doesn't most of the evidence point towards the involvement of the family? Who would sit down in someone else's home and write out such a long ransom note without risk of discovery?
Who would go into someone else's house and use objects in the home (eg. Patsy's paintbrush) and not bring their own kidnapping equipment with them?
- Anybody willing to play devil's advocate and/or believe the "intruder did it" theory? I've always thought it strange that the ransom note included the $118,000 bonus that John Ramsey earned. I would think either John or Patsy would be too wily to write something so incriminating against themselves.
- But then again r416, what intruder would take the time to write such a long letter in the Ramsey house? They'd be too afraid of getting caught. It makes more sense to me that Patsy or John had a lapse of judgement in writing that amount down. Or maybe they purposely wrote it down thinking that it would cast suspicion on a work colleague.
- OK so I'm reading the book written by the lead detective. Here's some surprising things.
They police had the pad the ransom note was written on.
They had the pad the practice note was written on.
They had the pen the note was written with. It was capped and put back in the cup holder where the pens were kept.
If there was an intruder, in the timeline, it would have been the kidnappers who fat JonBenet the pineapple.
The Ramsey's house was a clutter mess.
The DA was good friends with the Ramsey's lawyers.
The Ramseys only communicated with the DA's office and not the police.
The DA's office was immediately giving the Ramsey's lawyers all the evidence as the police gathered it.
The DA's philosophy of the law was not to go to trial and saw being the DA as the chance to "advance society. His office plea bargained 97% of all cases. Including serious crimes. Virtually no one in the DA's office had any prosecuting, courtroom experience.
At the request of the Ramsey's attorneys the police were forbidden to run tests on trace evidence and DNA evidence until and only if the Ramsey's were charged so that the Ramsey's lawyers could be present to direct the testing method.
The day after the murder, Patsy's sister was allowed to go into the house to remove a car full of items. A police car full of items. The DA had instructed the police to drive her there, help her pack up the stuff, and drive it to the Ramsey's who were staying at a friends.
Patsy's friends were going to hold an intervention, after Christmas, about the way she treated JonBenet and were going to offer an ultimatum of involving child protective services if Patsy didn't seek help.
Several of John's close friends went to the police and told them point blank that it was the parents who did it.
what were patsy's friends going to confront her with in the intervention?
what were the specifics about how patsy was treating jonbenet?
other than what we know, what would make the friends tell police that the parents killed
- R418 what was the name of the book?
- Thank you for the summary, R418. If I take your post at face value and consider no other information, it strongly reinforces the theory that the adult Ramseys were directly involved in JB's death, orchestrated a coverup, and manipulated the investigation. Even if I *were* to consider other info, what that lead detective provided is quite damning and compelling.
- [quote]I've always thought it strange that the ransom note included the $118,000 bonus that John Ramsey earned. I would think either John or Patsy would be too wily to write something so incriminating against themselves.
One may surmise that at some point in the planning stages it was intended that they were to go through with a ransom drop. Patsy was too afraid of John to force him to raise a million or more in cash to be sacrificed in the charade. Should they find themselves needing to put up a ransom, the ready cash they had on hand would simply have to do.
John called the police and later he retrieved the body from the cellar, disturbing and thereby destroying the crime scene. I wonder if the first he heard of Jon Benet's fate was when Patsy presented him with the note she "found;" or whether he was part of the plot long before that hour.
- I don't know if there's an afterlife, but if there is, and Patsy did it?
I picture a little beauty queen, all dolled up, blonde hair done just right, with hot red coals for eyes, and razor sharp teeth. Patsy falls to the ground to beg forgiveness, but this little devil in the guise of JonBenet just grabs her by the hair and drags her into the pits of hell.
- Is that the Steve Thomas book, R418?
Pretty outrageous stuff.
- To add to R418, there is direct quotes from Steve Thomas's book about the legal pad on which the ransom note was written at this link (forgive the 1990's web design).
What killer would go into a house without an already written ransom note? Just decide, "Hey, I'll look around for a pad of paper to write it on when I get there"? The pad on which the note was written belonged to Patsy Ramsey. (see link)
- I've always thought that aspect of the ransom note is very compelling, R425, but it doesn't seem to have done bugger all as far as the DA was concerned. He didn't want to proceed against the Ramseys.
- Here are The Ramseys on Larry King in 2000:
- So, any news on the legal suit?
- I think John Ramsey may have been the killer. If you watch closely, he is even more suspicious than Patsy:
- R359 here
That dot above is mine as I did pay my dues but am too lazy to dig up my log-in whatever.
For those of you that cannot fathom a parent, mother or father, doing horrible things to their children, you must live an incredibly sheltered life.
It happens. It happens every fucking miserable day.
I will NOT shut my eyes that the MW declared her vagina double the size of what is expected of that of a six yo of her height, size and weight.
I will not be satisfied with the constant contradictions of the Ramsey's.
They killed her, they are sadistic mother- fuckers and they're not alone by a long shot.
I have to wonder about the poster who thinks that anyone posting about 'child pornography and children for sex' is a conspiracy nut.
Do you live in a fucking bubble?
Seriously, that's why these sick bastards get away with it.
It's too terrible to fathom. I get that.
It's disgusting. It's vile. But it's true. Every fucking day.
For those of you that, again, can't wrap your mind around evil? Do some research before you shoot your mouths off.
The guilty, the depraved, the fantastically evil are counting on you.
In other words, sheep.
- R431, what do you make of the video clips of the Ramseys above?
- Which ones? I've seen them all.
What in particular are you pointing to?
- The Ramsey interviews on Larry King. Do you find them suspicious?
- Patsy Ramsey Interrogation:
- Everything about them is suspicious and calculated.
Did they ever answer any questions? No.
Let me ask you something...
Have you read the transcripts of their police interrogations?
You know, the ones that were MONTHS after the murder because the DA felt it necessary to, um, you know, give them breathing space during their time of duress and only after the Ramseys and DAs decided upon agreements of what would be asked?
Like the phone records. Like the clothes that were worn that night/day. Like everything else that never saw the light of day.
- Let's see a photo of Mr. Ramsey and his new chicken wife.
- "I will NOT shut my eyes that the MW declared her vagina double the size of what is expected of that of a six yo of her height, size and weight"
This I've never read or heard anywhere else. Where did you get this information.
- I just watched several clips of John Ramsey being interviewed by Anderson Cooper. His answers were unexpected and odd.
His states he never read the autopsy report. I would have expected the couple who were trying to find a killer and defending their innocence would have armed themselves with all the information they could gather.
On wanting to know the identity of the killer, he worded it in such a way that didn't emphasize JBR. He wanted to know who targeted his family - not JBR. He also said he couldn't imagine himself ever making anybody mad. Really? He's a business man. It's part of doing business.
Finally, when asked about Burke, I swear he tripped over his words and you can hear him almost slip and say "cover up" instead of "compartmentalize".
His new wife is introduced and speaks.
- How do we know Burke smeared his own feces?
- Also, on the pain of being accused of killing his daughter, he replied it didn't hurt - the pain he felt was from losing JBR. He completely brushed off any feelings associated with being a suspect. I would think, devastating, infuriating, embarrassing, offensive, are words that might describe his reaction(s) to the accusations.
- John held the garotte. Burke broke the hymen with his fingers. Patsy hit her over the head and wrote the ransom note. It was a Ramsey Christmas spectacular!
- Further along in the book and just read through the author's brief description of Patsy's history. When you learn she was in the Miss America pageant you think ditzy airhead. Not true. She was a big part in helping John establish and run his business out of their basement. She eventually went on to marketing jobs in the IT field. She was always academically inclined. Graduating with two degrees. She was a master in debating societies.
- Patsy's pageant clip. The fashion and hair are all pageant and a bit dated but she really was quite beautiful until the cancer hit.
- Many "overachievers" are straight up psycho. And they are rewarded by a psycho society.
- I wonder if she hated her sister for winning the Miss West Virginia tittle too. Especially since her sister was just a little prettier.
- And the sister.
- I'm with r411 to the extent that I'm open to the possibility that someone other than the parents may have been involved but I don't agree that the parents had nothing to do with JonBenet's death.
- R445, someone hit your nerve.
- No, R445 is correct.
- Dad slept with JonBenet, and Mom slept with me!
- Is that true about the friends wanting to do an intervention? They must have stayed silent all of these years.
- Well, once she was dead, the friend were thinking 'oh shit... too late now!'
- "he replied it didn't hurt - the pain he felt was from losing JBR"--IIRC, he said it hurt most to be thought of as a molester.
I've ready all the books but for the parets'. Do not remember reading Anything about JBR's "vagina being twice the normal size."
Again, I recommend "A Mother Gone Bad." This book looks at, among many elements, the very nature of Patsy's correspondence and how its tone and imagery changed with her worsening illness, and of course how her letters and cards compare to the language of the "ransom note."
Further, AMGB analyzes PR's religiosity, down to the Chapter and Verse of which she was most fond.
Too, this book documents the bed-wetting and feces-smearing behaviors of both children.
Lastly, the book's final photo is a family Christmas one, with JR's hands rather too close to the nether regions of a non-smiling JBR.
PR and her sister were West VA beauty queens, with all the weirdness such ambitions entail. They wouldn't be the first or last to be victims and thence perpetrators of sexual abuse.
- The Vanity Fair article mentions the vagina aspect. Patsy and John killed their daughter and got away with it.
- The ex-house keeper revealed details that only someone living there would know. Just like the prosecutors in Zimmerman's case, the Colorado folks botched the case.
- This family was way too busy, creating many opportunities for Patsy to snap. I read they went to a dinner party Christmas/murder night, then drove around dropping off presents at friends' houses, then were to go home and go right to bed since they had to get up super early to fly to Michigan. Then after staying in MI for just a couple days, they were going on a 3 or 4 day Disney cruise. So the night of the murder, Patsy was to get the kids to bed, then get them up and ready super early, and finish packing in the midst of that.I mean Jesus Christ, why do these fraus overcomplicate their lives? If they had relaxed and keep their asses home for the holidays, none of this would have happened.
- Feces smearing? That is not a normal habit.
And was the molestation proved?
- Wow, I just saw samples of Patsy' s handwriting and read the ransom note again. She wrote the ransom note after killing her daughter.
- R457 is right. Not only did she just beat ovarian cancer(or so they thought). She beat it using experimental treatment. Every other week she would fly to D.C., get the treatment, then fly home and spend four days in the local hospital recovering from the treatment she had just gotten.
- They sound manic.
- Did she get therapy for murdering her daughter?
- As for the "foreign" DNA, Jonbenet's body was disturbed even after her death. At least six people touched her after she died. John picked her up and then you have the various law officials.
- Not only did they pick her up they laid the body down in the living room and the family cuddled with it then the Reverend had them join in a circle around the body and pray over it.
- Just got my used copy of the Steve Thomas book in the mail. He's cute! Or - he was when the book was published.
- So I'm thinking that Patsy covered up the crime Nd that Burke did it. The question remains: who was sexually abusing JonBenet?
- "I mean Jesus Christ, why do these fraus overcomplicate their lives?"
They do! This is the nutty suburban behavior. It makes them all anxious and unhappy, too.
- I don't think they intended for the body to be left in the house. They were going to dump the body off somewhere,that's why Patsy wrote the ransom letter.To make it look as if JB had been abducted and killed. But something interrupted their plans. Maybe Burke woke up and caught them.
- [quote]Just got my used copy of the Steve Thomas book in the mail.
Me too. Just started reading it. Alex Hunter had to have been paid off by John Ramsey.
- R465, looks like the women following the case already set up a site devoted to Thomas (last updated in 2009). From what I gather, it seems that he was sued by the Ramseys.
- I don't think Burke disturbed them. He's a kid, they could have kept him under control. He wouldn't have wandered into the secret area in the basement if he woke up in the night anyway.
- Am a quarter into the book now. Fascinating details, too many to share here.
It is so blatantly obvious that Patsy hit the girl -- likely in a rage over bedwetting -- but wasn't dead yet, then John Ramsey finished the job with the garrote.
The DA's office was totally in bed with Ramsey's defense lawyers and worked against an already ineffective small town police force.
Patsy and her family come off as ambitious, greedy, vain, bitches.
- Don't you love the sister R472? Telling her police chauffeurs that she was a millionaire who didn't know what to do with her millions and turns out she was a shop girl. LOL The good thing that the book does is remove the silly conspiracy theories and treat it like it was, or should have been, another murder investigation.
If it hadn't been for their millions and a corrupt DA the Ramseys would have been arrested about a week after the murder.
- Another bizarre detail,Burke's shit stained pj bottoms were found in Jonbenet's room.
- That is bizarre. On many levels. WTF.
- And another thing I sort of got out of the book was that John Ramsey really didn't give two shits about JonBenet or Burke but was deeply in love with Patsy from the first time he saw her.
- I can't imagine someone being in love with Patsy, but whatever. Patsy strikes me as emotionally and probably intellectually underdeveloped. John already had two adult kids, so I can see him being over the whole rug rat thing. He was probably just giving Patsy what she wanted.
- But that's just it she wasn't intellectually underdeveloped. She would have probably scored off the scales. An ambitious psycho is more like it.
- [quote]Another bizarre detail,Burke's shit stained pj bottoms were found in Jonbenet's room.
Well, I'd shit my pyjamas, too, if my parents had just murdered my sister.
- I read somewhere that even as a child, the size of Burke's dick was a topic discussed by the entire family. Apparently, he was quite big. The fact that that was discussed always weirded me out.
- Damn they sound weird.
- If John was packing too might explain Burke's shit stained pajama bottoms.
So glad I don't have kids.
- O.K. I think I've got it --
The mother, pissed that her kid [italic]wet the bed[/italic], hits her on the head so hard it actually cracks her skull. Then does a "Oh oh. I shouldna done that."
Fortunately, her husband has military training and offers to finish the kid off using a garrote.
It sure sounds logical. Almost a common scenario, when you think about it.
- Patsy was irrational about JonBenet. JonBenet was a doll to her, not a person. Hence the intervention over the pageants that her friends had planned. Anything that JonBenet did that was human, like wetting the bed, was infuriating and frustrating to Patsy.
What I am unclear about is why they would think that they, untrained in medicine, could tell that JonBenet couldn't be saved or was irreparably damaged.
Maybe they were playing in the basement. Somehow Burke got her hit in the head. He was scared and instead of telling his parents he hid in his room, whatever. By the time the negligent parents got wind something was wrong it was too late. Could the garrote have been done post mortem or right at death?
The thing is, anyone's instinct is going to be to call 911 if you're the parent or to tell the parent if you're the kid. How were they able to overcome that to turn it into a murder, if it started as an accident?
- I always wondered about them lying about Burke being awake but then they heard him on the tap saying "What did I do?" Could he have overheard them weighing the pros and cons of blaming it on their son?
- The coroner was able to determine that the garroting was the cause of death but that the head injury would have also been fatal. Go upthread and look at the picture of her head injury. Half of her fucking head was caved in. It was an angry blow that did that damage. The coroner was able to tell she was still alive after the head wound because of something the eyes do when you are alive and being strangled. But she was obviously out cold when the strangling happened.
- I think Patsy did all of the killing, and when John got wind of it, he had no choice but to go along to protect her for whatever reason, even if just loyalty. If Patsy accidentally gravely injured JB, I don't think John or any adult with any sense would go along with finishing her off. I read the detective's book a while ago and I remember John was not comforting Patsy at all the day it happened. He was staying away from her. I haven't read much about the dynamic of the relationship between John and Patsy, but I'm sure there was some weird stuff there that explains why he'd go along.
- Apparently Burke shit his pants, for one thing.
- Patsy's cancer had ended their sex life. According to the housekeeper Patsy complained about giving John blowjobs. Patsy was disgusted by it and wondered what she could do to make it better.
- Much was made of JonBenet's bedwetting problem but she also defecated in her bed, which can be a sign of abuse, the victim soiling herself to keep the predator away.
I'm still holding to my golf club theory. She takes the club with her downstairs to JonBenet's room and walks in on a scene out of her nightmares. John is sexually abusing their daughter. She creeps into the room, in shock, and swings the heavy wooden club full force expecting to hit her husband. But he ducks at the last second and JonBenet takes the full force of the blow. Now they're both involved. That's why Patsy could be so smug and arrogant. She knew John would never flip on her.
- And what about the pineapple? I can't figure out how it fits into the story. (JB ate pineapple shortly before her death- it was found in her upper digestive tract. A bowl of cut up pineapple was in the kitchen with Patsy's and Burke 's fingerprints. Patsy denies JB ate pineapple that night. Weird.)
- [quote]Just got my used copy of the Steve Thomas book in the mail. He's cute! Or - he was when the book was published.
The book came out about a decade or more ago, yes? I've had trouble finding a new copy, but maybe I will try to locate a used one.
- [quote]Fortunately, her husband has military training and offers to finish the kid off using a garrote.
Many investigators suspected at the time that the garrote may have pointed to John Ramsey. It's a style of knot which is fairly unknown in America, but is known in the Philippines were John served in the military . . .
- [quote]Another bizarre detail,Burke's shit stained pj bottoms were found in Jonbenet's room.
What raises red flags for me is the fact that BOTH of the Ramsey children seemed to have bodily function issues. Unusual for two children in the same house to both be doing that at their ages.
- Was the head wound too severe for Burke to have been able to inflict it, accidentally or otherwise?
Maybe she and Burke were fighting over the pineapple bowl, he shoved her and she fell into the corner of the granite countertop?
- Her head wound wasn't visible. Her head wasn't bloody or swollen. The coroner was surprised to find that injury at the autopsy. Everyone assumed strangulation would be the only cause of death. I don't believe there was a determination as to which injury came first, but as other posters have noted, she was still alive when strangled.
- The fact that the Ramseys lied about the pineapple is just one of many suspicious things about their behavior that night.
- Seeing your sisters head smashed in at the hands of one of your parents would probably scare the shit out of you too. Literally.
- But do we really know whether Burke saw his parents do anything? Isn't he still in contact with John?
- The coroner said JB had a punctured hymen but the hole was too small to have been caused by an erect adult penis. Maybe Patsy punctured JB's hymen with her finger, to sort of force her to "grow up" and stop wetting the bed. Maybe JB screamed bloody murder for a few seconds in pain and shock (overheard by the neighbor.) Then Patsy silenced her forever with a panicked blow to the head that did far more damage that she had intended.
I agree with those who think that Patsy did all the killing unassisted. I think John went along with the cover-up. I don't believe he molested JB the night of her murder nor do I think definitive proof exists that he ever did.
Has anyone yet mentioned how John Ramsey's favorite program, Star Trek: The Next Generation made frequent reference to intergalactic "factions." Some say this is where Patsy got the idea for the "small foreign faction" allegedly behind the kidnapping.
- [quote]Maybe JB screamed bloody murder for a few seconds in pain and shock (overheard by the neighbor.)
In one of the reports on the case I read, it said that 2 neighbors heard screaming and saw a figure moving through the house.
The Ramseys say they heard nothing and were asleep.
Who to believe?
- JR had to assist in the killing. He knew how to tie the garrote ...and strangulation was the cause of death.
Weirdest facts of the case: both kids defecated in the bed. Whoa! Who knew kids did this?
- I wonder how Burke feels about the fact that his defecation habits have become public knowledge?
- Eh, we also know his whole family used to discuss his oversized schlong, so it kind of evens out.
- Where's the proof of that one, R504?
- [quote]Many investigators suspected at the time that the garrote may have pointed to John Ramsey. It's a style of knot which is fairly unknown in America, but is known in the Philippines were John served in the military
Didn't they sign the ransom note after the military philippines SBTC victory!?
- Yes, that's what the ransom note says at the end, R506.
But the Ramseys deny they wrote it.
- The Ramseys are a textbook example of money not buying class. Such low class behavior. Dirty house, nasty family.
And how much must the maid have hated them? Spilling all their secrets. Even if she hated Patsy, you'd think she'd keep quiet out of respect for JB's memory, or to not embarrass Burke.
- It was 45 minutes to an hour between the head blow and strangulation. Speculation is that Patsy used part of the brush to puncture JonBenet's vagina.
- For what reason, R509?
- anyone know the length of time from the head injury to police arrival?
- Not sure, R511. It would have been at least a day, I guess.
Remember that for the first day, the ransom note succeeded in its purpose of convincing the police JB had only been kidnapped. They didn't find out she was dead until the following day when John Ramsey 'discovered' her body in the basement after the kidnappers never called.
- By the time the police arrived and the child's body was "discovered" by John and carried upstairs, her body was in rigor mortis. So she had been dead for 4 hours or more.
- R500 sounds more disturbed than Patsy. Do you get off speculating about a SIX YEAR OLD girl being fingered by her mother???
Lots of sickos on this thread.
- oh god, that long???
I was thinking this all happened in a matter of a few hours. that poor child.
- R514, the post at R500 sounds a little weird, but you have to remember what we are dealing with in this case.
We are dealing with a little girl who was brutally murdered in her home while her parents claimed they heard nothing. Meanwhile those same parents had no problem sexualizing their daughter in beauty pageants.
In addition, we have reports that both the boy and the girl had ongoing problems with urination and defecation and that JB was sexually assaulted.
Obviously this is going to lead to speculation as to what the heck was going on in that house.
- Yet, with all that evidence, no convictions. The USA has the best judicial system that money can buy.
- Now 2/3 into Steve Thomas. Got it for $3.00 on Amazon in two days. Am exhausted but still intrigued and need to go to bed.
The DA personalities, politicians, detectives, police, naiveté, and non-confrontational, "granola" Boulder culture have become more interesting to me than the case itself.
Clearly, the parent(s) did it and covered it up. Unless gay Burke got info from his father and goes public someday, we'll never know exactly what happened and why.
A previous poster wondered about the "intervention" that Patsy's friends had planned. That had to do with JonBenet's wearing of heavy makeup and tarty costumes at the age of six. But Steve Thomas hints that there were many, many visits to the Pediatrician (a family friend) and that Patsy might have been physically abusive while John might have been sexually abusive.
Am not normally a fan of these crime stories but have been following this one for years. The only other one which haunts me is the David Wone story. Wish there were more info/books about that case.
- Thanks for the update, R518. It will be good for you to take a breather from it for the night and then come back at it tomorrow with fresh eyes. Will probably help you understand more of what Thomas is writing about.
- Historical use of the garrote:
- Many theorize JBR wet her bed causing Patsy to react violently. Was evidence found that she had wet her bed that night (wet sheets / blankets)?
There have been references to a messy house. I can't imagine it would have been trashed if they'd just had an open house for the entire community to walk through to see their decorations. Any messes or disarray could be attributed to all the festivities of opening gifts, packing for 2 trips, etc. The family had a full agenda. Also, the family had a maid.
Where can we read up on the maid's statements? I'm surprised she never wrote a book.
Could JBR's hymen have been broken prior to the night of her murder? She'd had many infections and trips to the pediatrician where it could have been broken. The autopsy report did not definitely state she had been sexually abused. There was room for speculation, based on her described vaginal walls. However, the irrational could have been from recurrent yeast infections. If JBR used bubble bath frequently, that can cause yeast infections. Does the book go into her medical history?
Knowing Patsy had spent her life involved in beauty pageants I can't imagine friends wanting to have an intervention with her feeling she sexualized JBR. Based on the costumes JBR wore, they weren't overly revealing or in poor taste. What I mean is, her skin was covered by most costumes and there wasn't an emphasis on her "figure" as compared to some costumes we've seen on these young girls. I've just never been able to make that jump to the whole "sexualizing JBR" theory. I believe Patsy just loved the pageant world - the talent, choreography, poise, pretty costumes, etc. It's what she knew and loved. All non pageant photos of JBR show her dressed conservatively.
Did anyone else have a key to their house?
- This thread has been intriguing. I wonder if the crime had been committed today if it would have been solved. Certainly, the technology is better today and would have been able to detect things that at the time were undetectable.
The parent's behavior was incredibly bizzare. Not just in reaction to the crime, but in their everyday life both before and after the crime.
They had an enormous amount of friends and seemingly spent a lot of time making sure to be around them. For a business owner and two small children, that isn't normal. There shouldn't have been time for so much socializing.
The church/religious situation is weird as well. They buried JB at a Church grave site in Atlanta where they did not attend church. When they moved to Atlanta, they went to church somewhere else. Then, when Patsy died, they had her funeral at yet a different church in Atlanta and then buried her next to her daughter. Why wasn't the service held at their previous home church where they had "friends." All of that is interesting because it seems there is a pattern of moving around and not really developing any real relationships.
I believe without a shadow of a doubt the mother wrote the note and was involved. The father had to have tied the knot. But what is so disturbing is the brutality of the crime. Was it punishment gone wrong? Did they do things to the body after she died to make it look like a different kind of crime. It seems to me Patsy just snapped.
- "probably intellectually underdeveloped."
Patsy was very intelligent.
Patricia Paugh was born Dec. 29, 1956, in Parkersburg, W.Va., where she was a state champion debater in high school and a member of the drill team. In 1977, she won Miss West Virginia and competed in the Miss America contest.
She graduated magna cum laude from West Virginia University in 1979 with a degree in journalism and moved to Atlanta, where she met John Ramsey.....
- I want to hear more about this intervention Patsy's friends were supposedly planning.
It's interesting that JB's body was covered with a blanket. I read an FBI profiler's book, and he said parents who kill their children often do this, they cover them with a blanket or bundle them up in some way.
- And the heart drawn on her hand. Parents who kill their children almost always are very ritualistic in the hiding and presenting of the body. Blankets, stuffed animals, a little drawing on the hand....
- R524, if the perpetrator was fixated on JBR and was "in love with" her, he might have also used a blanket as a caring gesture. Just playing devil's advocate.
- R525, wasn't that Casey Anthony who drew the hearts, not the JBR case?
- Casey had stickers I believe but JBR had a heart drawn on her hand.
- She was state debate champion...in West Virginia...which does not imply high intelligence.
- Besides, her resume was probably faked. Nobody actually checks a pageant resume.
- A journalism degree! Really? She must have been planning the next Mars mission! (I have a journalism degree myself, so I can make fun of it. Getting it ruined any chance of making real money, so I'm bitter. Keep an ear open when you're watching TV and movies, if they want to show a character as a dimwit, they say that they got a journalism or communication degree.)
The children were shitting the bed. The daughter was being paraded around like a little whore. Her friends were getting ready to do an intervention. The whole family lived like pigs. Patsy was low class enough to air family laundry in front of the maid, like how she had to give lots of blowjobs and she hated it. The maid apparently despised the family and couldn't wait to spill everything she knew. We all saw how creepy John and Patsy were after it happened. I'd be terrified to sleep in the same room as Burke.
My point is, ok, maybe she wasn't mentally challenged, but something wasn't right up there. Maybe she was bipolar or clinically depressed. Didn't John date Natalie Holloway's mom? I wonder if he told her what really happened.
- Your point makes sense, R526. The blanket and the heart on the hand could be interpreted in a few different ways. Let's say there was someone obsessed with JB and this stranger did kill her. Wouldn't the police be looking at every known pedophile in the area, or wouldn't someone go to the police to report someone who seemed 'off'?
- They DID look at at the sex offenders in the area. They DID look at John's so called business enemies. They DID look at all the names the Ramsey's gave them as potential suspects.
My favorite one is the Santa Clause suspect that the public loves to focus on. He was in his 80s, had just come out of heart and lung surgery, and could barely tie his shoes let alone nearly crush a girls neck with a garotte.
R31 no one in the thread is saying there wasn't something wrong. In fact just the opposite. Patsy was a psycho. A stone cold, crazy bitch. Just pointing out to call her stupid is wrong. In fact the beauty queen image helped her get away with much of her shit because people just assumed she was too dumb to pull this off and she encouraged that.
- John Ramsey was probably not a "successful businessman." He was a career military twit who was given something to make him rich after he retired. He retired in 1989 and he was a multi-millionaire by the time all this went down in 1996. Do the math. Another "golden parachute" for our boys in blue.
- The media - I mean, national media - was complicit in clearing the parents, which is not usually the case in a child murder. It appears, due to John Ramsay's shadowy military past, that he had the entire U.S. media doing its best to smudge and then hide (see John Mark Karr and his unnecessary media storm) the involvement of JBR's parents in her murder. WHY?
- Not me.
- I wasn't following the case at the time. So I don't know how Nancy took it. Was she trying to take a bite out of their asses?
- Shit, Nancy takes a bite out of everyone's asses...
- It could have been one or both of the parents doing something to her, or the brother strangling or doing something to her. Then the cover-up.
- I've become a true crime buff lately. If your interested in other good crime books are the ones I've read recently.
Small Sacrifices by Ann Rule. This could be one of the best true crime books written. I was way to young at the time the crime happened so the whole book was new to me. Diane Downs was a fascinating psycho.
Invisible Darkness. The Strange Case of Paul Bernardo and karla Homolka. This was the second book I read about this case and was much better. The reason it was better is the guy writing it didn't try to sanitize it to protect the family. Plus it's clearly evident that the writer viewed the infamous tapes. The Crown has been trying to prosecute him ever since.
Trace Evidence: The Hunt for the I-5 Killer. Unlike the Ramsey case this is a book of how truly dedicated and competent law enforcement dug in and solved the case. With the help of a prostitute who fought back and lived. The prostitute who helped them solve the case was a great hero. She vowed she would see it through so it didn't happen to another girl. Through homelessness and drug addiction, with little or no help, she made it to every court appearance, stood her ground on cross examination, and helped convict the creep. Note this isn't the Randy Woodfield case that Ann Rule wrote about.
Deadly Innocence. This is the first book I read about Bernardo and Homolka. It is a great book in laying out the facts and the timeline and how incompetent the cops were. However, like I said above it is very sanitized. It runs with the thread of protecting the families through the whole book. Something the Canadian press has been obsessed with. I mean I get it but what haven't they heard? Plus this author buys into Karla's defense. He dedicates the last two chapters to analyzing her battered wife defense and defending it.
Anyone got any other good ones?
- [quote]That's why Patsy could be so smug and arrogant. She knew John would never flip on her.
Yes, she had him in her back pocket. His loyalty to her always amazed me. I also got the feeling those were his bonus kids. He probably distanced himself emotionally after losing his first daughter. I get why she snapped. The shitting and smearing would have gotten on my last nerve.
Never found Jonbenet to be genuinely beautiful naturally. Unfortunately she had her dad's mousy face. Her dyed hair and makeup job sure fooled a lot of people. I've known some beautiful children but JB really wasn't.
- LOL I didn't want to be the first to say it, but yeah, I though she was kind of a homely kid.
- As a young graduate intern in clinical psychology, i worked with child sex offenders. I hated it because it showed me a part of humanity that I didn't want to believe existed. The clients were there by court order. They were all male and the youngest was 8 years old. The average age of offenders was 12 and they had been offending for years. Their victims tended to be younger siblings. All of them, at least the ones in this program, had been victims of sexual abuse. Most of them had also been diagnosed with encopresis or fecal incontinence.
It is highly likely that Burke was the sexual abuse victim who then became a perpetrator. As horrific as it is, the sexual abuse may not have played a role in JonBenet's murder. It may just be another example of the Ramsey's depraved personalities.
I can't remember the source but one of the books had a scenario regarding the murder of JB that I thought made sense. Patsy was cleaning her after she wet the bed, struck her on the head seriously injured her. That's where John came in and finished her off. They both staged the scene and she wrote the note.
Perhaps Burke will come forward and discuss his abuse one day. Here's an article about encopresis.
- Paul Bernardo was convicted of murder years ago and has been in Canadian prison for the past decade. It's his then-wife who got off easy with only a few years and then got out. The families of the girls that were murdered feel the Crown went easy on her so they could get him, but she was very involved in the whole murders herself.
- Burke apparently refuses to cooperate with the new DA, just like his parents refused to cooperate with the old DA.
It's been reported that the new DA wanted to talk to him about the murders and get some more information to reopen the case but he would not cooperate.
- Here is some interesting information and part of an interview with the Ramsey's housekeeper, Linda Hoffman Pugh.
It answers the question up-thread re: why the house was a mess if they had a housekeeper. She (Linda) was supposed to come clean up the day after the Christmas party but was unable to make it.
That being said, it sounds like the Ramseys were lazy parents, including never bothering to teach the kids to pick up after themselves.
- I agree. She was a homely brunette child with a huge forehead.
- And another interview with housekeeper Linda Hoffman Pugh. Some interesting details about the Ramseys that I was not aware of before!
- So the housekeeper really talked about the sex lives of the Ramseys? I didn't know that before. Kind of surprising, but interesting.
- I have never seen any documentation that Patsy spoke to any of her housekeepers about her sex life... that is just a rumor afaik.
- (Housekeeper) LINDA WILCOX: This particular Halloween costume, it was the Halloween, it would have been 1994 probably. Yeah, the Halloween of '94. And she had this, it was actually kind of cute, it was this little witches costume but it wasn't your standard, you know, black dress, pointy hat, it had orange criss-cross striping and it had a little cape. You know most little kids would say, you know, she said I'm gonna be a witch for halloween but I'm not going to be a bad witch. I'm going to be a good, sexy witch. And this is from the voice of a 4-year-old.
PETER BOYLES: She said, a good, sexy witch at 4?
LINDA WILCOX: It was a witch costume. Most kids would have just said, you know, I'm not a bad witch, I'm a good witch. But her mom is there and then Patsy walked in the room and said, "Yeah, she's gonna be a sexy witch."
- 548, your link tells me JOHN has Aspergers. NOT BEING THERE AND HATING THE OUTSIDE NOISES.
- They made their maid pick up their children's toys!
The psycho dog switch was a topper though. The dog was having trouble with toilet training so Patsy switched it with a sick dog from the pet store they couldn't sell.
- Or no, switched for another dog because the first one was sick.
- The interview w the maid mentioned that Patsy bragged at she and John started with nothing. What exactly did he do? How did he get so wealthy and powerful?
- burke was the favorite until pageants began, then patsey switched gears when JB was school age and able to perform. burke stopped pissing the bed when patsey took all her focus off of him and then JB started.
john is a controlling asshole who hates noise and apparently his whole family, including the dog. john was not in love with patsey, they didn't fuck anymore and their was no romance, pure business.
john made patsey buy JB a dog so she'd have a friend. john also made patsey take care of the dog. the dog got "sick" so without anyone knowing, she "got rid" of the first dog and replaced it with a second dog. then gave away that dog when the family went on vacation for the summer so she wouldn't have to deal with it.
everyone kept to themselves, cold environment, the only bit of silliness in the house was from a spoiled and over managed JB who wound up beaten and dead. I can see it.
and who keeps a large collage of photos of their dead daughter in their private bathroom on the floor near the bath tub? I feel like it was johns jackoff material.
- I wish John Ramsey could be subjected to sustained cross-examination on so many of his inconsistencies, but that will never happen.
- There were photos of JonBenet's dead body in the bathroom? Where does this info come from? I haven't heard that before.
- [quote]548, your link tells me JOHN has Aspergers. NOT BEING THERE AND HATING THE OUTSIDE NOISES.
That struck me as aspergers too, r553.
- no, photos of johns first dead daughter were kept in his bathroom, on the floor next to the tub for years.
- Did he ever explain why, R561?
- A kidnapper doesn't jibe with pedophiliac murder. Get in, grab the kid, leave a brief note, get out.
A pedophiliac murderer doesn't jibe with not only writing the "War and Peace" of ransom notes, but also a PRACTICE r.n.! Get in, molest the kid, murder, get out.
That is to say, no proffered "stranger" motive fits any of the known facts, but especially does not fit the "hang around forever and risk getting caught" aspect of the ransom note.
THAT is the most damning piece of evidence.
- A good summation of the case, R563.
I have always felt the ransom note being written in the home without apparent fear of getting caught is the biggest clue to the whole case.
- Exactly. No criminal would stay on the scene and there was actually no need for a ransom note. I think The Ramsey's didn't think at first that the police would search the house but when they did, John realized he couldn't continue to hide the body...which I'm sure he planned to get rid of at some later time.
- Burke was not asleep the whole time. He knows that his parents did it and has covered for them the whole time. After 16 years, if an "intruder" did it, why haven't they been found? Just like Nicole Simpson's real killers!
- Burke Ramsey today.
- Thanks for the justice link. What a bunch of silly hens post there. They never put together the SBTC as the ransom note signature...or did they?
- [quote]by: Justice for JonBenet
R546, for fuck's sake - stop signing your posts here that way. Apparently you have no idea how creepy it is.
I'm not really sure where you think you're posting and who you think is reading it. Nevermind, it doesn't actually matter. Get a grip and ratchet your Unsolved Murder Munchausen's By Proxy down a few notches. This is not Nancy Fucking Grace World.
- Actually a slasher who is in prison in Florida, killed Nicole Brown Simpson. And why did he kill her? Probably because she was a minor celebrity and she had been pointed out to him in a bar.
- R570 = OJ Simpson, posting from prison.
- What are you talking about, R570?
- [quote]John realized he couldn't continue to hide the body...which I'm sure he planned to get rid of at some later time.
John is probably the one who broke the window and put the suitcase underneath it to make it look like someone broke in.
- The window was broken the summer before. The suitcase was moved when Fleet White searched the cellar for JonBenet.
- Fleet White should not have been allowed in the cellar. One of many police mistakes.
But doesn't John Ramsey claim the killer put the suitcase under the window to help him get out/in?
- Someone mentioned The Nicole Brown Simpson case earlier.
This is the man who did it.
OJ had nothing to do with killing the Mother of his children.
In your entire life you will NEVER find a DA or police department who will admit when they were wrong.
- Oh really, R576?
- [quote]OJ had nothing to do with killing the Mother of his children.
Okay, I'll play. In the article to which you linked, OJ hired the guy, told him where the condo key was, and said it was okay to kill her. The guy killed her as OJ waited nearby and then OJ took a look at her corpse, walking in her blood.
Your interpretation: OJ had nothing to do with it.
Comprehension is obviously not your strong suit.
- [quote]Anyone got any other good ones?
Deadly Lessons by Ken Englade is a good, gossipy if simple account of the Pam Smart case. She was the NH school employee who seduced a 15-year-old student then solicited him to murder her husband, which he did along with some friends. Some have been paroled and others are due to be in a few years. Smart alone received life without possibility of parole which she richly deserves.
A funny aspect of this moral tale is how descriptive many of the names of the participants were: the "brain" who cooked up the plot was Pam Smart. The murderous teenage lover's name was Billy Flynn, as in "In like Flynn." The blabbermouth who spilled the beans, leading to the arrest of the boys including himself, was Raymond Fowler. The lonely fat girl who was persuaded to wear a wiretap, thereby puncturing Smart's alibi was named Cecilia Pierce.
- Exscatly when did John earn millions of dollars? Was it the company he started with Patsy? Seems like one of those computer geeks that hit the big time.
- If I remember, didn't the Elizabeth Smart hunt land a heroin addict in jail who then died from convulsive withdrawals? I remember the media went nuts on him as a suspect and then it wasn't the guy? I remember that circus and felt horror for the guy and his poor family. The media had him pegged as the kidnapper and interviewing his neighbors or anyone who would talk to make ratings. We learned his whole arrest record, hobbies, friends..you name it. They hounded exs, just everyone. Schoolmates, neighbors.
Elizabeth Smart actually smacked down Nancy Grace during an interview later on. It was embarrassing. I miss seeing Nancy on The Soup. They held a mirror to her weekly.I've never known a normal Nancy in all my days. Okay, a lot of days.
- R79, is the movie To Die For based on that book?
- Yes but only indirectly, R582. The movie To Die For is based on a fiction novel of the same name that took its inspiration from the Pam Smart case.
There is another non-fiction book about the case called Teach Me to Kill. Pam Smart was not a teacher, she was in charge of the school's Audio-Visual equipment.
Another aptly funny name associated with that crime was the stool-pigeon whose last name was Welch.
- John Ramsey was always smug. That mousey, creepy grin. It actually unnerved a lot of people but they never noticed with all of Patsy's theatrics. That DA just wasn't spending the money on the case while the early police gaffes doomed the chance of conviction. A money waster and embarrassment for the prosecutors. The first police officer went loco herself when witnessing the body of JB. She's freaked out for life. Her freak out doomed the investigation. The Ramseys made that town run. They singlehandedly improved their habitat by creating jobs and volunteering. They really were a force. I believe someone, probably little JB had been pissing her off and making her doubt herself. Not appreciating Patsy's hard work (and she was a hard worker) then the final blow which caused a violent reaction to overworked Patsy. Did the coroner say it was one single blow to the head or several? I would imagine just one.
- If John Ramsey does indeed has the Aspies then you just have to skip on over to how extrovert extraordinaire Patsy was dealing with his condition. Just about forty years old, she was. It wasn't discussed back then but now we all know what to look after concerning the spectrum. It had to be so frustrating for her. That's a tough fight, married to a spectrum. It explains the f ups with the ransom note. Since we know their view of reality is warped. She did all of that volunteering hoping to find a connection to someone. That explains his turning off of the vacuum, no show at her surgery and of course the aspiesque ransom novel. I see what you were doing there, Patsy. That's why he avoided you when the police and friends showed up that morn. Was his business, by any chance, involved in computer technology? Bingo.
- Not really familiar with Pam Smart case but I saw her images on the web page and that one looks like I googled images for "tortured soul'.
- John Ramsey is definitely a very smart man. Always has been. Even over the past year he has been on Anderson Cooper, cleverly evading direct answers as always and shilling his new book.
- A very honest interview with Baba Wawa. BaBa concludes the interview with, "They'rrrrrre GUILTY!".
- There were cobwebs outside the window, thus proving that there were no intruder. Attorney Lacy cleared the Ramseys based in touch DNA, which is not the same as other DNA.
- R587, I posted up thread about the Anderson Cooper YouTube videos. I highly recommend watching them. I found his answers very strange and atypical. I wish an expert would analyze the interview. I thought it was more revealing than any other interview I'd seen of the Ramsey's.
I am curious why the Ramsey's kept putting themselves out there.
- From r547. HOW CREEPY IS THIS PICTURE???????
- [quote]It wasn't discussed back then but now we all know what to look after concerning the spectrum.
You're over-estimating people's interest in and knowledge of Asperger's.
- The weirdo from R345 is back and posting up a storm. I think he's drunk off of his ass when he posts.
- well 592, after the Adam Lanza debacle, people are indeed aware of Asperger's symptoms out of fear.
- Nah. A small percentage of Americans became slightly more aware of the fact that Asberger's exists. You are seriously over-estimating the interest level of the American public, R594. I'm sorry to disappoint you. Maybe people ought to be more interested in/knowledgeable about Asberger's (and a lot of other, more serious, mental issues) but they're simply not.
You're also over estimating people's interest in Adam Lanza but that's a common mistake. Here's the level of interest, fear and concern: we couldn't even get basic background checks or limits on high capacity magazines in the wake of Sandy Hook.
Welcome to the United States. We have the attention span of a gnat.
- You can't even spell it. People are aware as there is screening for it in public schools. I'm not including the low income people. They're the last to know anything. The backlash over Jenny McCarthy's statements linking it to vaccines proves the awareness has become main stream. Nice try, though.
- [quote]I am curious why the Ramsey's kept putting themselves out there.
Hiding in plain sight? No fear of prosecution?
I think he knows he is home free. He's now been cleared by the Boulder DA. Why shouldn't he have a good time and enjoy pulling it off?
- Because he's a narcissist, as was his bitch of a wife.
- [quote]You can't even spell it.
Which proves my point and I am neither low-income nor uneducated. I know that Asberger's exists. I have an idea of what it is but it's pretty vague.
Again, sorry to disappoint you. Here are a few clues for you about American intelligence and awareness:
Over 70% of Americans believe in angels/fairies/whatevers;
25% of Americans think the President wasn't born in the US and one in three can't name the Vice President;
24% have no idea who we declared independence from in 1776;
40-50% believe in "Young Earth Creationism" and 30% of Texans believe that humans and dinosaurs co-existed;
One in five likely voters believe that Osama bin Laden is still alive;
63% of Republicans, 27% of Independents and 15% of Democrats still believe that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction when the U.S. invaded in 2003;
28% believe the Moon landings were faked;
18% believe that the Sun revolves around the Earth.
And you think everyone's knowledgeable about Asberger's? There is not a hope in Hades of that.
American ignorance is vast, myriad and strange. You're fighting an uphill and losing battle, my dear, but bon chance.
- HUMAN ignorance is vast, myriad and strange. We are not nearly as 'advanced' and civilized as we profess to be, or would like to be. Doesn't look like we're going to get there ever, as a species, either.