Cher is rather limited. Madge has passed her expiration date, and Cher is better equipped and has a lot more experience to be a nostalgia act, but Cher is no Madonna.
applauds OP. You are totally right. Cher >>> Vadge
There were no precedents for the type of star Madonna became.
she is now
Madonna did it all by herself and didn't need no man (Sonny Bono) to help her
She is the standard of success for every major female pop star
Cher is an icon in her own right and a MUCH better actress than Madonna, but were talking about music here and Madonna is literally 3 times more successful than Cher, despite being around for 30 years vs. Cher's 50 years
Even Cher herself tweeted last month that "Madonna is one of the greatest pop icons of all time".
In terms of commercial success there is NO comparison
Madonna World's Biggest Selling Female artist of All Time with over 320 million records sold worldwide and nearly 1.3 Billion in tour grosses, making her the highest grossing solo touring act in history and the female artist with the top 2 highest grossing tours by a female artist in history
Cher about 100 million records sold in nearly 50 years in the business, very successful touring act, but nowhere close to Madonna level.
R8 Vadge didn't need a man? Please! She slept with people to advance her career and was annoyed when men in power didn't want to sleep with her. You don't know the real Vadge if you think she did it all on her own.
R9 you have a point, Madonna probably did sleep around, don't all celebrities, but she still forged her own path and did things that no female artist had done before her
1985 was the year Madonna really exploded and you couldn't spit without running into a Madonna wannabe
Time magazine rushed to put her on it's cover, the article began "Now there parents the thing to do is remain calm over this Madonna phenomenon".
The Like a Virgin album had become the first solo studio album by a female artist in the US to sell 5 million copies
Cher NEVER did it
Madonna would do it with 4 MORE albums
Cher had periods of musical success, but was never able to sustaine life at the top like Madonna has.
And Madonna's peak >>>>>Cher's
Cher has only had one hit song since1990 with the massive Believe in 1999.
Madonna has had a further 2 dozen hits since 1990, on top of her nonstop '80's hits, Madonna's last minor hit was last year with Give Me All Your Love (even if the song sucked) her last big hit was 4 Minutes in 2008
Madonna has 4 albums among the top 100 all time worldwide sellers, Cher has 0.
Madonna has 8 #1 albums on the Billboard albums chart, Cher has 0
When the sales figures come in for Cher's new album, it'll make the 2 million selling so called flop MDNA album look like a fucking blockbuster
Again both are icons, so I'm not bashing Cher.
But you can't compare Madonna's commercial success to Cher, Madonna's in a whole other league with The Beatles, Elvis and MJ.
Vadge hasn't had a number 1 song in 13 years. Cher hasn't had a number 1 song in 14 years.
They're BOTH has beens way past their expiration dates. They're nothing more than nostalgia acts at this point. Nobody gives a shit about their new music.
At least Madonna didn't produce the fucked up hambeast thing that is Chaz Bono.
R11 in the US HOT 100
However Madonna had a whopping 9 #1 singles since 2000 on the Billboard Singles Sales chart, the most of any act during the 2000's, at decades end Billboard named her the top selling singles artist of the decade
The reason that only 1 of those 9 sales #1's went to #1 on the main Hot 100 was because Billboard insists on using Airplay spins on their main Hot 100 not just singles sales
In the UK it's different and the top singles are based purely on sales
If Billboard did that Madonna would of had a further 9 #1 singles since 2000 in the US
For the record since 2000, Madonna has had 9 #1 singles on the sales charts and 5 #1 albums
And Cher has had 0 #1 singles on the sales charts and 0 #1 albums since 2000.
Here's a look at Madonna's album and first singles SALES peaks of her studio albums since 2000 in the US
Music (single) #1 SALES, #1 main Hot 100
Die Another Day (single) #1 for 11 weeks! SALES, #8 main Hot 100
American Life.(album) #1
Hung Up (single) #1 SALES, #7 main Hot 100
Confessions on a Dancefloor (album) #1
4 Minutes (single) #1 SALES, #3 main Hot 100
Hard Candy (album)#1
Give Me All Your Love (single) #6 SALES, #10 main Hot 100
MDNA (album) #1
R15 stating FACTS
And it may be the past but it's Madonna's impressive chart career since 2000 in the US
3 consecutive decades among the world's top selling acts
And you will deal
And again the new Cher album sales, which I might buy just to support Cher, will make the 2 million selling MDNA look like an international blockbuster
Madonna only has had two 3 hits in america since 2000. Hardly impressive. And hung up barely even scraped the top 10.
I like both Cher and Madonna. Not a superfan, but I like them both. I don't think you can compare.
Cher was great. A multi-talent for a new generation that no longer had many multi-talents.
Madonna was not only a pop artist, she was a social pioneer. No mainstream star had ever championed female sexual freedom or gay visibility as much as Madonna did when she hit her stride in the late 80s and the 90s. In many ways, she's an insufferable cunt. But she's a remarkable cunt who changed this country and very possibly the world for certain demographics of people.
Vadge has a bigger fan base but that doesn't mean she's better than Cher. Hell, Shitney Spears has a bigger fan base but everyone knows she sucks.
Cher is original while Vadge is the kween of the copycat.
Ever see that pic of Vadge with a Cher wig sitting on a motorcycle, imitating Cher? She's a wannabe.
But Hung Up went to #1 for weeks on the sales chart
Again MOST countries base their singles charts based purely on SALES, the US Billboard Hot 100 bases their charts on a 50?50 split between sales and airplay
Around 2002 US radio started becoming reluctant to play Madonna as much as they had in the past, due to her advanced age, even singles that went to #1 for weeks on the sales chart, meaning the American public likes them, received moderate airplay in the US.
Hung Up may have just scrapped the top 10 in the US, but it sold more than We Belong Together although WBT spent weeks at #1 due to huge airplay on 3 formats and strong sales
HU had amazing singles sales but just moderate airplay on one format
Is it Madonna's fault that US radio wouldn't play her huge selling singles that much in the 2000's due to ageism?
Then I guess it was Black artists fault when US radio wouldn't play their songs although radio would be all over the white artists cover versions of the same songs, due to racism in the 50s and 60s?
That's why a lot of people in the industry don't take the main Hot 100 chart seriously, as it's not based on pure singles sales, but a hodgepodge of factors, lately they've added a songs YouTube views as part of it's formula along with airplay and sales
I mean Springsteen never had a#1 on the main Hot 100 and until last year Taylor Swift, despite being huge for the last 5 years, never had a #1 either, although like Madonna in the 2000's
R20 continued Swift had a number of #1's on the singles sales charts but not the main Hot 100.
And for the record Madonna has 12#1 Billboard Hot 100 singles and the most Hot 100 top 10 hits than any artist in history with 38
That's more top 10 hits than Cher, Streisand and Tina Turner COMBINED
And according to their own list released earlier this year, Madonna is the most successful Hot 100 solo artist in the 55 year history of the chart and she's the #2 most successful artist on general behind the Beatles
Madonna also has more #1's (165!) on all Billboard charts combined than any act in history
Again her commercial success has always been extraordinary
r21 [quote]Again her commercial success has always been extraordinary
Yeah, because she sold out to get attention.
The Vadgebotstan bringing up the technicalities of how recording acts get #1 songs in the US is irrelevant. All the other recording acts have to to abide by the same rules and standards. Furthermore, it's off-topic.
So what if Vadge has more commercial success? Cher is just cooler and better. Cher is a real person. Vadge is phony as fuck.
r21, Mariah has 18 #1s, Rihanna is tied with Madonna. Rihanna also has 12 #1 singles (two were for "featuring" but Billboard counts it), and 10 Top 10 singles in the US, and that's since 2005. Rihanna will break Madonna's record when her new album drops. She also has age on her side.
No one gives a shit about Top 10 singles, btw. That's just a nice way of saying that your single failed to reach the top spot.
[quote]Madonna also has more #1's (165!) on all Billboard charts combined than any act in history
Cher has an Oscar. Madonna loses.
[quote]Madonna did it all by herself and didn't need no man (Sonny Bono) to help her
Men were behind all of her work, bozo, and she fucked all of them.
R9 is right. HE knows the REAL Madonna because he has a lifetime subscription to People magazine.
Look, both Cher and Madonna are icons, talented and extraordinarily successful. They have sustained their careers and made their mark on music, movies and the entire entertainment industry.
I just happen to like Cher a whole lot more regardless of album sales or concert tours. Cher is my girl.
C'mon Queens of DataLounge! What we need is another Madonna thread by a bunch of tired out drag queens who make under $50,000/year and have stains in their underwear.
No one gives a shit what you losers think.
Madonna is just a cheap copycat. Xerox machine. A Marilyn Monroe tribute artist.
R24 Madonna was inducted into the Rock and Roll HOF her first year eligible and received the award
Cher has never even been NOMINATED for the R &R HOF
Despite the fact that Mariah has more #1's on the US Hot 100, Madonna is still the more successful artist on the singles chart
Billboard list Madonna as the #2 Hot 100 artist of all time with 12 US #1's and 38 top 10's
While Mariah ranked #5 with 18#1's and 27 top 10 songs
The reason that Madonna ranked higher with less #1's? Many of her #2 and #3 singles were much bigger overall hits with legs on the charts than many of Mariah's flash in the pain discount single #1's
Rihanna will probably overtake Madonna with #1's on the Hot 100 and good for her, she releases a single every other week
But Madonna will soon overtake Streisand as the female artist with the most #1 albums
And on the worldwide United World Charts, Madonna is the most successful worldwide singles artist in history with 47 top 10's and 22 #1's worldwide
More than any other artist
Keep on feeding me!
R29= butthurt, uneducated GaGa fan
And if Madonna was a Marilyn knickoff
Than Marilyn herself was a knockoff of the original blond bombshell Jean Harlow
But you probably have no idea who that is since your like 12 and have no concept of pop culture
Madge was never even nominated! Can you imagine?
[quote][R24] Madonna was inducted into the Rock and Roll HOF her first year eligible and received the award
Bought and paid for, and had the public outraged. The people that were more iconic, and more significant than her were never inducted. Her induction was a joke. She was inducted by Justin Timberlake for Christ's sake! lmao
[quote][R29]= butthurt, uneducated GaGa fan
lol. Yeah, you be down with the kids. Oh, and it's Gaga, gramps.
We LOVE YOU R30 !
R33 really? Madonna herself wantd to turn it down, because she thought it was too soon
Madonna has always thought award shoes were silly
She accepted it, but decided not to perform
As for iconness NO FEMALE MUSIC PERFORMER IS AS ICONIC AS MADONNA
Every female pop star mentions her, her influence and her career as THE BENCHMARK of what to attain
Rihanna, Btitney, Christina, Fergie, Katy Perry, Kesha, Beyonce, Rihanna, Miley etc. have all listed her as an inspiration and role model
Rihanna worked with Madonna on her upcoming secret project and word is they did a song together
"Madonna has always thought award shoes were silly".
Oh my dear, dear, dear!
Darfour Shoeless Orphans
Is Madonna giving away those award shoes?
I like Madonna, I don't see why DL hates her so.
In her, I don't see a paragon of virtue or sainthood. But I see a very strong, driven, charismatic, hard-working person and those qualities I really do admire in her. I am an all-or-nothing person so her obsessive tendencies strike a chord with me.
In other poplets, I see laziness, I see phoniness, I see fear. In Madonna, typically no.
I never understand why people say she ain't talented: she is a really great dancer (trained, might I add) - way better than those that the media props up (Beyonce). She apprenticed under the great Martha Graham, after all.
All her acting needs is a good director; DSS and Dick Tracy are examples of this. Even her cameo in Die Another Day was alright. Nothing to write home about but the reactions were blown out of proportion because ~MADONNA~.
She's a control freak so essentially every song of hers has her stamp on it and every producer has attested to her hard work. You know it ain't lip service when they reveal something trashy about the star (Nile Rodgers, William Orbit) but then go on to say how hard she did work. She has a very natural way of appropriation - and she effectively channels multiple streams of pop culture, history and style into one funnel. I don't get this with artists like Lady Gaga who always appears uncomfortable or wrong in some way.
For all of Madonna's unoriginal, banal ways, I always get the sense that there is a real mind at work behind the face. That it's not a producer or publicist telling her, "do this". You know when she sang about Erotica and made that awful SEX book, she actually believed it. It was a facet of her true persona and not something her publicist came up with.
Above all, I enjoy her music. She can connect to her material and it's great material (unlike Beyonce's for instance). There's something in her catalogue for everyone and it never really feels phony at any point (barring the awful Hard Candy).
I guess I am a minority.
I'd like to add though that Cher is in her own league. And I am not really interested in Cher.
It won't happen probably until the next century, but Life of Madge will probably replace The Emperor's New Clothes.
Madonna is the biggest selling and most successful female recording artist on the history of the music business
Madonna even holds a record for most Guinness World Records with 22!
There are no male precedents to her success as all the all time records for men are shared with the Beatles, Elvis and MJ
Whereease Madonna has sold more records AND more concert tickets (recently beating Tina Turner on concert tix) than any woman in the history of the music business
She's one of the most famous women who ever lived and was selected by Time magazine (whos cover she appeared on twice) in 2010 as one of the 25 most influential and powerful women in history
In 2012 other musicians voted Madonna as the #1 Greatest Female Artist of the last 20 years (1992-2011)
Madonna was the 2nd top selling artist of the '80's behind MJ
With her intense staying power Madonna ranked as the 4th top selling music act of the '90's worldwide and was the 6th top selling act of the '90s in the US
MJ fell out of the top 10 sellers
In the 2000's Madonna ranked as the 3rd highest grossing touring act of the decade
Behind the Rolling Stones and U2, both of whom did way more shows than Madonna
In the US and worldwide Madonna was the #1 selling singles artist of the decade
Also the Madge facts fan is annoying!
r39 is coming for madbot's crown!
"Madonna did it all by herself and didn't need no man (Sonny Bono) to help her"
Please R43. Numbers are so vulgar.
R40 continued Madonna also spend her third decade among the top 10 selling artists worldwide
She was the 5th biggest album seller worldwide in the 2000s, behind Eminem, Britney, Robbie Williams and Norah Jones
Colleges and Universaties teach classes on Madonna in relation to Academia and issues of feminism and homosexuality.
In addition to her Rock and Roll HOF induction, Madonna was also inducted as a founder member of the UK Music HOF the previous year
Madonna is the 3rd top selling artist of all time in Europe, she is also the #1 selling solo and non European artist in history in Europe
She's the most successful singles artist in history on Canada with over 20 #1's, she is also the biggest selling female act their
Same for Australia where earlier this year it was revealed that Madonna is the biggest selling artist EVER in the 30 year history of the Australian singles and albums charts
In South America Madonna is also the biggest selling female act ever
She's also one of the biggest selling acts ever in Japan, where Madonna has won more Japanese Gold Disc Awards than any other artist
R45, I know what you mean. I used to tell my Algebra teacher that every time she returned one of my failed tests.
R33 the only outrage that people expresses for her Rock and Roll HOF induction, was because some people didn't feel like a pop artist should be inducted into the R&R HOF, even Gene Simmons stated that Madonna is a legend but shouldn't be in the ROCK AND ROLL HOF, he suggested that they start a pop music HOF, which I heard they were doing
There was similar "outrage" when rap group Run DMC were inducted
I don't get the Madonna hate on here either you can not like her and think she's not talented, I happen to think she's EXTREMELY talented, I just watched her new concert Blu Ray and it's like a talent show come to life, the woman does it all.
But the vicious hatred for her ia ridiculous, I know it's the same 2 or 3 posters, but when people try to rewrite history and discredit her with no evidence other than THEY dislike her it makes no sense
If you hate someone so much and they're not relevant than why click on, post and even create Madonna bashing threads every other day?
The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame is in Cleveland. nuff said.
[quote]Bought and paid for, and had the public outraged.
More like 3 or 4 queens on DL.
R52 is fabulous!
Cher can sing too. And in tune, no less.
What about us?
Say what you will, Lady Gaga is the most powerful musician on the planet.
Cher is not on that level. Not a Madonna or a Britney.
It doesn't matter how many records Madonna has broken. She's hollow and sad. No self esteem. Insecure control freak.
Cher has Oscar...what else matters?
r59 Bitch, please.
Thanks for the laugh, R56
It's true. GaGa can bench press 250 lbs.
Is this really the best we can do now at DL?
This place is truly fucked. A dead website which is slowly grinding to halt...
Madonna is great. The "hate" for her on DL from some obsessives sounds more like self-hate from jealous gay men who were never part of the cool crowd coupled with outrage at the idea that an older woman should be sexual, making music, etc. Weird sexist ageism.
The only people who seem to hate Madonna to this extent are bitter gay men and Gaga's Little Monsters. Jealousy of some kind evidently plays some kind of role in their pathological hatred.
Madonna's place as an icon and a historic pop culture figure who actually changed the cultural landscape is secure. I live in Europe and travel around a lot, to various countries and various cities. Whether I'm in Athens, London, Budapest or various Italian cities I always hear Madonna in bars, cafes, clothes stores, supermarkets, all sorts of classic songs from her decades' long career, which are often being played on the local radio stations. Her effect and influence are much greater than whatever's in the singles charts this week.
Where I live in Athens, there is Madonna graffiti all over the walls in my neighbourhood.
OP's stupid claim that Madge was just a Cher wannabe is ignorant crap from someone who really knows nothing about what was going on back in the day and has no sense of history.
Not seeing this at all, OP. Madonna owes far more to Deborah Harry than Cher. She basically stole Debbie's blond, urban sex kitten game right out from under her in the early 80s. When Madonna hit the scene, Cher was struggling to escape total has-been status. She wasn't putting out music and was focusing on her acting career, to much (early) ridicule. A Cher comparison at that point in time would have been a put-down. Madonna looked, dressed, sang and acted nothing like Cher.
Madonna's schtick has always been S-E-X. Cher, not so much. Sure, she showed her body off, but that was more about the Bob Mackie gowns than being sexual. Cher sold glamor AND humor--she was always in on the joke. Madonna was always humorless, and was decidedly gritty/non-glamorous in her early incarnations. Cher would glide out on stage in a designer gown--contrast with Madonna rolling around on the floor in a bargain-basement wedding dress, covered in ironic "street" jewelry and askew "boy toy" belts. Aside from red-carpet/award show stuff, has Madonna ever performed in a gown? Not a kimono or a negligee or a baby-doll dress or fetishwear, but an honest-to-god designer evening gown? I can't remember any.
Both are great artists, but both are distinctive. Every pop diva that comes along owes credit to her forebears, but Madonna did not rip off Cher. She wasn't exactly original, but her style and persona have always been distinct from Cher's.
Nothing about Vadge is original and she did sometimes rip off Cher. Cher was just 1 of many other famous women from whom Vadge stole.
[quote]Nothing about Vadge is original
Bullshit. Derivative is her middle name, but she put an original spin on everything she stole. We've never had such a sexually-empowered female superstar in the mainstream, before or since. Gaga is an asexual clown and all the Britneys, Xtinas and Kateys that came later are just poor imitations. Madonna still holds the sex-queen crown.
I think history will be kinder and more respectful towards Cher, talent wise, and artistically.
And will regard Madonna as the "material girl", a pop icon who mastered self-promotion thru shock-value and sexuality.
Just my .02
agreed R73 Vadge wanted to be rich and famous. She would have done anything to achieve her goals. This whole "i'm an artiste" BS is a ruse. She only says that to cover up her tacky output. Y'all know damn well if her career had declined 20 years ago that she would have hopped on the reality show train.
R65 is so correct.
After all, Cher is the only woman in history to ever sit on a motorcycle.
r75 After all, Lady Gaga is the only woman in history to ever...
R75 because it's just a coincidence Vadge wore a wig similar to the one Cher was KNOWN for in the 60s...
Spot on! I might also add that Debbie Harry not only preceded Madonna in terms of pop culture, she was also prettier, had more talent, and her music was better.
Madge never gave Cher a second thought.
Take that, bitches.
R79 wrong. She clearly thought about her a lot, hence the copying. All the iconic women in the business have been ripped off by that talentless whore.
Cher is real-she always kept her accent. That phony bitch Vadge first started talking like a New Yorker in the 80s, then tried to sound like an old hollywood movie star in the early 90s then went British.
I think Cher has so much more personality than Madonna, but comparing the two of them is sort of silly. I get comparing Gaga to Madonna. But Cher? Different careers, different objectives, different trajectories.
R84 needs some serious help if she things that youtube clip was brilliant.
R105, ROFL? What a quaint, archaic little used but for the fraus phrase.
Vadge wishes she had Cher's talent.
Cher wishes she has Madge's money
You're stirring up the pot here, OP, even though you're absolutely right but there are too many Madge ass lickers here. Cher has a different audience. Less crass but more discerning.
Who's got the Oscar?
Why do you think Vadge keeps trying in film? She wants a fucking Oscar. She also wants another #1 hit on the hot 100. Cher has her beat with the Oscar and oldest woman to hit #1 on the hot 100. Vadge is so competitive and jealous that she can't be happy with her lucky and fraudulent accomplishments.
R112, dissolving into a grease with his irrational and unsupported anger.
Snap out of it! Cher is queen of the universe.
And it doesn't matter if Madonna has sold more, had more number one songs, etc., etc. Cher rules.
I think Cher and Madonna would make wonderful Queens of the Universe. Together they could piss, from great heights, onto the heads of their current crop of imitators.
Here is the official Billboard Magazine list of the biggest singles artists of the Hot 100 singles charts, since the start of the Hot 100 in 1955.
1. The Beatles
3. Elton John
4. Elvis Presley
5. Mariah Carey
6. Stevie Wonder
7. Janet Jackson
8. Michael Jackson
9. Whitney Houston
10. The Rolling Stones
Madonna---Queen for ever and ever. Janice Jackson can lick the little balls of shit off her rectum.
R112 and yet Cher has never had a #1 album and judging by sales of her new album SHELL NEVER HAVE A #1 ALBUM
Madonna has 8 of them and will eventually overtake Streisand as the female artist with the most #1 albums of the Billboard charts (Streisamd has 9).
Madonna has 12 #1 singles on the Billboard Hot 100 and Cher has 5.
I did buy Cher's new album and I liked it a lot though, first Cher album I ever bought.
I love Cher's song "Pride" ...I think it's a Spotify bonus track. Fun, exciting, simple dance tune...what Cher is really, really good at.
I'm pretty sure Madge wasn't a Cher-Wannabe. I think that, at least for the first ten years or so, she was a Lady-Gaga-Will-Have-Wanted-To-Be.
Love this answer on Cher's Ask me Anything on Reddit yesterday
Do you still hate madonna?
Madge, no. Actually I don't. I never hated her, I just thought she was a bitch. Actually I quite respect her.
Cher tells it how she sees it. Everyone knows Vadge is a bitch but most celebs are too afraid to say it for some reason. Cher will call that hussy out!
[quote]Then I guess it was Black artists fault when US radio wouldn't play their songs although radio would be all over the white artists cover versions of the same songs, due to racism in the 50s and 60s?
50s and 60s record charts show this to be more myth than fact.
r112 Spot on. LOL. I bet Madonna is seething with rage and jealousy over Lady Gaga becoming an actress too. Can't wait for Machete Kills. I'm sure Lady Gaga actually can act. Just like Cher.
Even when Vadge was young, she never liked when another beautiful woman was with her if there were men in the room. She was insanely jealous and always wanted to be the center of attention. I'm sure she hated stunning women in her age group such as Sheena Easton, Vanity, Susanna Hoffs, Vanessa Williams and Paula Abdul. She already admitted in the early 90s that she felt threatened by Whitney Houston.
Now that Vadge is not far from 60, she has no choice but to accept that younger, prettier women are replacing her.
Madge's OCD accountant has failed to convince me that Madge is deeply and importantly talented. A rich grifter is still just a grifter and a rich wannabe Cher is still just a wannabe Cher.
It's worth noting that Madge's Kabbalah religion teaches that homosexuality is an abomination, punishable by death. No self-respecting gay man (nor anyone else with a shred of decency) stands by Madge with that homophobic garbage at the center of her "spiritual" life.
Lesbians are somewhat less reviled by Madge and her pals but are still unacceptable sexual and spiritual perverts.
According to Kabbalah, lesbianism does not create the same intensity of a spiritual short-circuit as gay sex because no semen is spilled into the open. Semen is the closest substance on earth to the Light of the Creator. For this reason it creates pleasure and it creates life. If it is exposed, negative forces immediately latch onto it. Thus, the negative forces are strengthened in the world. Lesbianism, however, does not create Light or Life. Therefore, though there is no spilling of a man's seed, there is no creation of Light and Life. Thus, the action only serves our interest and for this reason, is not endorsed. (from Kabbalah.com)
Say what you will about Cher, even about her difficulties with Chaz's coming out, she'd never go along with that patriarchal, homophobic pile of Kabbalah shit.
Cher >>> Madge
You girls keep raising the bar for sheer patheticness. What keeps you going?