I find it sad that young gay guys are so assimilated into straight culture nowadays.

Can't a guy like football AND Roz Russell? I do.

OP, you sound old.

and i'm 40.

So true OP

I honest to god thought this post was satire. When I realized this was real it actually just made me sad, not even insulting you OP, but it makes me sad that seeing young gay gays fit in fine with their peers probably just makes you a bit bitter because it wasn't an option for you.

And there have always been tons of gay guys who weren't really into those type of interest you describe OP. However in the past those who "passed" would be closeted in most cases, now those guys are feeling comfortable being out.

That is progress.

OP sounds like a troll trying to stir up mess. Ignore.

#getablog

Ouch! You were brutal R4.

but you're probably right about Op.

I bet they never heard of valley of the dolls either

I've liked basketball before I even realized I was gay. Why the fuck can't I watch basketball, OP? Fuck off.

Perhaps OP has fought a long time for gay civil rights, r4.

I'm 50, and sometimes I get really depressed when I see how much easier it is for younger kids to be gay. I'm not bitter about it, I just wish I could have had those chances. I have friends who are 10-15 years older than me who had it worse than I did. I have one older friend who was forced to take shock treatments to "help him" stop being gay. I had older friends die with AIDS.

Personally, I was never interested in gay culture that much when I was in my 20's, so I don't fault younger gays for not knowing who Joan Crawford is. But, it was older gay men who fought for these young gay kids. And, I'm glad I was and AM part of this fight.

But I can't imagine what it would have been like to be able to have been openly gay in my high school. To maybe know other gay guys there, and maybe even date. How much happier and more lovely my life might have been...

OP is Ashley "Heteronormative" Judd.

It has to be satire. Rex Reed's porn stash isn't that GAY!!

Gay guys and girls are now routinely going to prom together, getting elected class couple or cutest couple...

The world sure has changed for the better in an amazingly quick amount of time.

What R1 said. And I'm 41. And I've never seen "Mildred Pierce," or until this thread ever *heard* of "Johnny Guitar" (seriously, WTF?). No, I don't smoke cigars or hang out at sports bar (okay, at least not often...), OP, but I'm sorry you were so alienated by straight men in your youth that you apparently have no way of relating to them today. I like parts of gay culture just as much as I like things more identified with straight culture, and I don't even remotely consider it a "tragedy" that gays are no longer confined either to a metaphorical or literal gay ghetto.

It's a more open world today for so many young gay men do not need to keep their interests narrowed for fear of being found out if they are into sports, or maybe some traditional "blue collar" jobs. Assimilation is not necessarily a bad thing. It can continue to build bridges and open minds on gay people.

[all posts by flame bait troll #11 removed (violent racist homophobic right-wing misogynist), ISP notified with full text of all posts.]

...a Civilization, Gone With The Wind!!

Being gay used to be outlaw and underground. Exciting and wonderful.

Now we're just fodder for another Gap ad and nothing special.

They may not have Joan but they have Lady GaGa. Hardly in the same league, but...

I thought all gay men have seen the John Waters classics Pink Flamingos and Female Trouble. It surprised me to learn that 20-somethings don't even know who John Waters is.

troll post

[all posts by flame bait troll #11 removed (violent racist homophobic right-wing misogynist), ISP notified with full text of all posts.]

[all posts by flame bait troll #11 removed (violent racist homophobic right-wing misogynist), ISP notified with full text of all posts.]

.. this post ISN'T satire?

OP, why would anybody in their 20s care about any of this? In in my 50s and never cared about it.

Things change and you sound like you are stuck in the past which is no way to live.

Young people, both gay and straight, don't care about stuff their elders cared about. Everything changes and evolves.

Much of what is happening today was built on the years of struggles, Act Up and Queer Nation protests, which rose out of Stonewall. This is what we were fighting for.

I personally can't wait for a time when gay people are just part of society. I suspect I won't fully see it, but I know it's coming.

I'm 53, and Joan Crawford was never part of my heritage. I do like Fred Astaire, Louis Armstrong and many others...

Grindr is the new gay culture.

I don't want to assimilate with heteros. I hear enough about their children's latest accomplishments when I'm at work. When I go on vacation I like to go to gay hotels and guesthouses. Or gay cruises where all the rest of the passengers, two thousand or more, are my gay brothers. I look forward to the retiring and moving to a gay ghetto like Palm Springs so I can dilute the heterosexuality I'm exposed to. That's how I roll, and I'm very happy with it.

This is the saddest thread I've seen yet on DL - Not the OP's question, but the replies. In case you haven't noticed, a lot of straight culture is not very healthy. Do we really want to assimilate 100% into it?

The New Yorker ran an interview awhile back with a pioneering radical gay activist from the 60s, who was horrified that the two biggest gay political achievements were gay marriage and gays in the military. "Is THAT all you can come up with?" was the question posed to the younger generation.

I don't know the answer, but assimilation is always a double-edged sword.

The OP is a hall monitor.

Every minority group, racial, ethnic, religious, and, in our case, sexual, produces people who believe it is their calling in life to tell other members of the group what they are allowed to say, think, do and be. When OP talks about 'a betrayal,' the implication is that other gay people owe it to him to be who he thinks we should be.

[quote]I'm 50, and sometimes I get really depressed when I see how much easier it is for younger kids to be gay

I'm also 50 and I'm very happy to see it. The best thing about our humanity is when we improve conditions from one generation to the next. I'll bet you shit in a toilet and drink clean water from a faucet, don't you? A previous generation did that. Sometimes, things do get better.

You sound like you have an anger management problem, R10.

I just don't really think OPs premise is true. Most 20something gay guys are not into cigar bars and fantasy football. They're just not.

20somethings who don't know who John Waters just aren't very hip. There are plenty of unhip people of all ages; it's not symptomatic of the tragic assimilation into heteronormalcy.

Gay people becoming more mainstream or fitting in with straightway by sheer virtue of the fact that they're not flaming prisspots is a wonderful thing. It's like a previous poster said: these are the gays who would like have remained closeted were they part of previous generations.

I prefer to hang out with my straight buddies. And when I do get together with my gay friends, we do NOT discuss John Waters (not that there's anything wrong with that), or Joan Crawford movies. We go out looking for dick together, we laugh, we make gross jokes, we eat food, whatever.

As mentioned those gays that appear to be assimilated would have been assimilate in the past. Only gay men that couldn't hide it were out in the 60's. At least overtly.

What we are seeing are normative acting gay men coming out and being represented. This might offend some older gay men whose identity is more focused on their gayness or gay men that are stereotypically gay.

Wow, I find R28's life to be sad and pathetic! I hope I don't turn out to be one of those old gays when I grow up.

Oh, and yet here we are on DL bitching about immigrants who don't assimilate.

No one speaks of pavilions anymore, and that makes me sad.

I shall lie on my davenport, crank up the Victrola and sniff my smelling salts until all this new-fangled folderol passes by.

The OP touches on a valid point - we may be witnessing the passing of the old age and losing sight of the things which once defined us and shaped our lives.

The stereotypical gay divas like Garland or Crawford never had shit to do with my life. Don't understand the attraction, never will.

[quote]When I was young, we kept to ourselves and wouldn't dream of participating in these heteronormative activities

Because you were terrified of getting your ass kicked.

Oh yeah OP cause we all fit into the stereotype of a gay man.

I like sports. I've played football since highschool and I love it. I like going to sports bars more than gay bars.

I don't necessarily understand why gay men idolize these women that are so far removed from what it means to be a gay man but ok whatever fine.

The only way forward is to prove to straight people that really we are just like them. We're people too and we ultimately want the same things in life as they do - success, love, happiness etc. Once they realize that bigotry will end. Its what white bigots realized about black people.

Just and only just hanging out with ourselves and acting like some bs stereotype isn't going to get us anywhere. People are scared of what they don't understand.

I wish I could find friends (of my generation or otherwise) that were into the stereotypical gay culture of days past. I'm 31 and a big Joan Crawford fan, love old movies, Broadway, the classic divas of stage, screen, and music. Call me a queen if you must but it saddens me that I can't find anyone to chat with about these things. Yes I'd like to talk about the various portrayals of Mame Dennis or rank Liza's live albums from best to worst. It can be quite lonely nowadays to be an unashamed show queen/diva lover/camp fan with zero interest in sports.

Go ahead and mock me. I'll put on my best women's picture survivor face and try to carry on.

or Oscar Wilde. Or Noel Coward. THE HORROR!

R41 How grateful I am to have you representing me in front of the straight community. How did I ever survive before you came along?

Be sure to write when you wake up and become yourself instead of some hetero manqué.

All those gay cult icons you mention, such as Joan Crawford, Judy Garland, John Waters, etc., are things of the dim and distant past to the young queer. Those old movies are not part of modern day culture. Only one gay channel TCM shows that stuff and the modern queer doesn't watch TCM, but MTV.

The calendar flips through the decades my dear. Several generations of queers have passed since the days of Stonewall, Crawford and Quentin Crisp.

The new queer needs not the gay cultural icons that the baby boomer 50-something generation recalls so fondly. They do not want to separate themselves from the mainstream like the old queers in San Francisco who have lived in the Castro for decades now, shop only at gay stores, eat only at gay restaurants, etc., and have never left the gay area in fear.

The new young fag likes to suck cocks, do drugs and have lots of sex like the old queers, and that is the ONLY thing the baby boomer queer generation has in common with them.

In another 20 to 30 years most the old baby boomer queers who held dear the cultural gay icons of those dim, dead times past will be dead, buried and forgotten -- and just like in ancient Greece, so will all that they held dear as their contemporaries.

It's time, my beloved. That evil thing. Time moves on... and so must you. You must put those olden day things up on the top shelf of your closet of life and at least TRY to relate to the young queers of today.

They look at us old fags with blank stares. Their dark little eyes show the emptiness of knowledge of past eras. They struggle to understand the old sayings and nod their heads and walk away, for they do not know of our struggle -- of our forgotten, bygone heritage of struggle. Yea, a new era has dawned for the modern queer -- and the autumn years have crept upon the old queer.

Oh time, oh evil time!

I am more than the cock I suck or the cock that slams into my ass. I play soccer and rugby in my home town. I also play a little guitar and do my own home renovations (built a desk and finished off my basement (a man cave)). Oh, I like dancing and facials and hanging out with my buds. Oh, I own a small hardware store.

[quote]The OP touches on a valid point - we may be witnessing the passing of the old age and losing sight of the things which once defined us and shaped our lives.

The OP has a stupid point. The OP is actually talking about gay people adhering to old stereotypes that he/she is comfortable with. That's all. I feel sorry for people who go through life constrained by stereotypes.

Social freedom, with a life filled with choices, is a wonderful thing. I was very active in the "Gay Lib" movement starting in the early 70s. This freedom is what we fought for.

BTW, I'll be 61 years old in a matter of days, and I've never seen "Mildred Pearce". Should I just kill myself now?

R29 is right.

My analogy is to "women's lib." I marched in those marches before I was in the gay pride ones. Women wanted to be taken seriously, i.e., look at my eyes and not at my tits when you talk to me. Now, women get their tits made bigger so men WILL look at them -- and the worst part is, I even know a couple of lesbians who've had their tits done.

I'm glad I won't be around as this gets worse.

...and I find it great.

I hope one day they will drop all 'gay' things and just be a part of society.

Never been a fan of the queen culture and it is nice to see it die.

{quote} Being gay used to be outlaw and underground. Exciting and wonderful. Now we're just fodder for another Gap ad and nothing special.

Geez. Ya can't win nowadays.

OP sounds old, and I'm 53.

[quote]They have no idea who Joan Crawford is. My goodness, she is an icon, part of our heritage, and they've never heard of her!!

By "our" heritage you mean your heritage. Joan Crawford, Roz Russell, Judy Garland and the drag queens who didn't start Stonewall, and giving girl names to YOUR gay male friends... nobody gives a goddamn.

As an elder gay, I would not trade my experiences for anything - it truly was a culture that is not seen today among our younger generations. But I am also pleased that today's generation of younger gays enjoy greater acceptance, and therefore, the freedom to pursue things that are of interest to them - as a person.

I'm sure the last utterance from the lips of bullied gay boys who commit suicide is "But I played baseball."

I think I understand what the op is getting at here, it's not anout the gains in civil rights over the last few decades but rather its the lack of respect or acknowledgement of iconic gay culture that defined gay men in the past.

I believe that the op is mistaken in feeling that all gays must like and or observe gay pop culture icons in order to honor or remember past struggles for the gay community.

It's good that gays can assimilate with heterosexuals today without sticking out like a sore thumb but with that comes a certain loss of culture that defined gays in the past. It's like they want to forget and move on acting like everyone else even though deep down inside you know that you are a little different and there is nothing wrong with that.

R44 you're welcome.

I'm 23, but I also find it frustrating that none of my friends, str8 or gay, have no idea who Bette Davis, Donna Summer or Monty Clift are.

I'm too out of scotch to respond, OP.

related thread.

I'm gay and this weekend I was hanging out with 2 friends: one straight, one gay (we're all in the military). The straight friend is the one who invited us out, and he is nothing but supportive when it comes to our being gay; however, when the idea of us going to a gay club came up, he wasn't too keen on the idea. No big deal. We all went to a sports bar and had a great time hanging out with each other.

Unfortunately, I neither enjoy being around, nor have much in common with stereotypical gays who can only talk about actresses, pop singers, or interior design. Sure, I have a great deal of respect for someone who knows about classic films like All About Eve, Mildred Pierce, or Gypsy, but gays shouldn't be expected to fit neatly in some box created by bigots ("gays are girly so they should only be interested in girly things"). And truth be told, my straight friends who know I'm gay are a lot more fun/less flakey than the few gay friends I've tried (and failed) to maintain over the past several years.

R56,

So order a few of the classics from Netflix, get a pizza, and invite your buds over for movie night.

I'm in my 40s. I was closeted for most of my 20s, because I was under the delusion that I would lose all of my straight friends. I woke up in my 30s and got my shit together, but I will say that I'm at a disadvantage now because I didn't spend my 20s as an out gay man, so I missed out on the years that inform your 30s and 40s and I feel as though I'm playing catch up.

I like old movies, mostly film noir, I like Joan Crawford, but I understand where her gay icon thing comes from. There are words and phrases that I don't get or understand their meaning, but that's mostly on Datalounge. My gay friends and I don't sit around discussing half of the shit that we talk about here on DL, except maybe politics.

Well, at least in a modern culture GLBT themes are usually expressed openly and positively. I would certainly prefer for things to stay that over the return of the homophobic times when almost everyone was in the closet, when anything gay was either subtext or presented in a negative way. Our times are the best in that matter and tendency is it will only get better in the future, so I don't understand how anyone can complain. It is truly mind-boggling

Oh and btw as far as the title of the thread goes, well it goes both ways as straight guys are more assimilated into gay culture as well and that's a very good thing.

R61, I was told we didn't have to do math on Datalounge.

It's not too different from elderly blacks that miss the Negro Baseball League, the culture that came with blacks living all in one place, going to segregated clubs, etc. Some great culture came out of that era, and black people felt comfortable living all together in one group. The downside was involuntary segregation and discrimination.

Today, there's a more integrated culture, and young people grow up with friends, music and culture of all races, nationalities and sexual orientation.. That's what normal to them. What comes with it is equal opportunity.

OP is just saying, he didn't grow up this way and it's not in his comfort zone. We're all getting older, OP. That's how it will be for all of us if we get old enough, one way or another.

OP's ideal Saturday night.

OP I'm sure you have heard this before, but must we tell you: Its not all about you.

I think it's great. Assimilation simply means that being gay isn't seen as such a big deal anymore. It's normal and so are we. It means we won.

Agreed that the young queerlings will never know what it was like to be part of a special club that met in secret bars and discos. To have a special language and camp culture just for us. But was that really so terrific in the first place? Wasn't nightlife culture just terribly vulgar? Wasn't alcoholism, depression, and drug abuse rampant amongst gay people precisely because we were seen as freaks, and indeed saw ourselves that way? Weren't a lot of gay men and women afraid to come out so they lived dishonest hetero lives instead?

Young gay people are able to be exactly who they are, express themselves however they like, and participate in whatever culture appeals to them. That's what we were fighting for. And we won.

elderlez = lesbeau.

and that's all you need to know.

[quote]I don't care about fantasy football

I know what you're saying, OP. When the young'uns at work asked me to participate in their Fantasy Football I got very excited - and brought lube.

I then found out that that wasn't what they meant AT ALL.

It was very embarrassing.

Well, I'm 20 and idgaf about broadway, gay pop icons, gay t.v shows. Times change op.

Why do the die-hard assimilationists sound so Republican?

[quote]Why do the die-hard assimilationists sound so Republican?

They dont, you are imagining that they do.

[quote]Why do the die-hard assimilationists sound so Republican?

You're assuming everyone posting on this thread is American. We're not.

"I just don't really think OPs premise is true. Most 20something gay guys are not into cigar bars and fantasy football. They're just not."

I agree with this. They may not be into Joan Crawford or Rosalind Russell, but they're much more likely to be into Lady Gaga, RuPaul's Drag Race, or the Real Housewives than they are cigar bars and fantasy football.

[all posts by flame bait troll #11 removed (violent racist homophobic right-wing misogynist), ISP notified with full text of all posts.]

[quote]I'm 31 and a big Joan Crawford fan, love old movies, Broadway, the classic divas of stage, screen, and music. Call me a queen if you must

Honey, I don't think we need to... it's already branded on your forehead.

I think it's sad in a way because of many of these gay guys have to censor to certain aspects of themselves in order to remain friends with these guys. Not all do, but most. But, I think these gay guys are just fine about that because they too have issues with their homosexuality so not talking about themselves is a good way to not remind themselves of who they really are. I'm sure that's exhausting, but tolerable for them, I suppose.

I know a few gay MEN actually, not young teens or young men who are of college age who associate with straight guys who have big problems with gay men. Not one knows that they are gay. Now, my belief is everybody in that circle is gay and closeted. But, still my point is, it's not just young gay guys, it's gay men who behave this way. Pretty pathetic if you ask me. And, these guys are not men either.

[quote]It's not too different from elderly blacks that miss the Negro Baseball League...

Not really. Black people had families and freely expressed themselves with their significant other and kids. Gay people have to remove any aspect of homosexuality or love/family from their life in order to be accepted by straight people in most cases. They have to basically be eunuchs in order to "live".

I jut had a company picnic yesterday, and not one gay person brought a partner. I do not have anybody, but if I did I would have brought him. The problem was concern about what others thought and if they would be fired for brining their significant other. Of, course that was not true, but they didn't want to risk it they said.

It's not assimilating as much as is it's denying who they are in order to fit into straight culture.

Maybe its not a case of assimilation. Maybe its just gay guys doing things they are legitimately interested in doing. If it happens to be the same sort of things straight men like, so what? Is that their fault? Should they refrain from doing things they enjoy doing simply because it upsets the older generation?

I don't think that's the point OP is making. You can like football, but you can't bring your boyfriend. I think that's the point.

I have to think OP was trolling ("Roz Russell"? Seriously?).

But yeah, the times are changing and the younger ones don't go for that whole "gay monolithic separatist bloc" thing.

As long as you don't talk about guys, your boyfriend, and guys you think are hot, we're cool, bro. But, the minute you get all gay and talking about that faggot shit like gay rights, somebody called you a "fag" or a "homo", (we don't care) you're out of the group and we are no longer friends.

But, we're cool as long as you act like us, talk about hot girls, pussy and tits, and sports.

Peace.

Segregation went out in the 60s. We are all just people right?

This is so shocking, because throughout the 1990s and the 2000s gay men everywhere talked about nothing but Joan Crawford and Roz Russell!

Its not assimilation OP...its ACCEPTANCE...something thats been a long time coming. We might not be completely there yet, but were on our way...and I think its great. Regardless of our inividual characteristics, we ARE like everybody else.

OP= stereotypes galore.

[quote]I think it's sad in a way because of many of these gay guys have to censor to certain aspects of themselves in order to remain friends with these guys. Not all do, but most. But, I think these gay guys are just fine about that because they too have issues with their homosexuality so not talking about themselves is a good way to not remind themselves of who they really are. I'm sure that's exhausting, but tolerable for them, I suppose.

[quote]I know a few gay MEN actually, not young teens or young men who are of college age who associate with straight guys who have big problems with gay men. Not one knows that they are gay. Now, my belief is everybody in that circle is gay and closeted. But, still my point is, it's not just young gay guys, it's gay men who behave this way. Pretty pathetic if you ask me. And, these guys are not men either.

Wow, you're the one who sounds bitter and sad. Get some therapy. Please.

I was just trying to make a point that gay guys are no longer steeped in gay culture and history, which very much includes Crawford and Russell. Most of these young guys have heard of Stonewall, but have no idea what actually transpired there and have no idea of its connection to Judy Garland (yes, I know...MARY!). Hell, they don't even know who Garland is! Pride parades are just an excuse to get drunk and hook up. These kiddies can assimilate all they fucking want for all I fucking care, but I just can't comprehend why they feel the need to assimilate 100% and show not a whit of interest in the colorful camp culture that we generations of gay men who came before them built and took refuge in. I just don't get it.

Sorry, R88, just coming from experience.

I don't think I came off bitter and sad either. Hmmm...let me read it again.

This thread is an insane mishmash of generational divides, armchair queer theory and blatant trollery. I'm not sure how much of it to take seriously, if at all. Here's my attempt at a serious reply:

I'm 44. I came out in my 20s and struggled with it greatly. One early roadblock for me personally was that I didn't see myself represented in gay culture: I was a bit nerdy/proto-hipsterish, had facial and body hair, and did not rank gym-going high on my priorities. The "gay community" I witnessed in the early 90s was defined by looksism, body fascism and rigid conformity in thought and appearance. It was also still being ravaged by a plague that I had been hearing about since middle school. It was not a happy scene, to put it mildly, especially to a newly-out young gay male.

If bears and otters existed then, I might have gravitated towards them, but I largely kept to myself. I wasn't thin enough, fashionable enough or "fabulous" enough. I knew nothing of old movies, fashion labels or "divas" that were the same age as my parents (or older). I just wanted to meet another "regular guy" like me, but all I encountered in bars and clubs were hissing, bleach-blond Fembots who looked terrified behind their withering glares and cutting insults.

That was my experience on the cusp of and during my coming out process in the early 90s. I mellowed and relaxed a bit and learned to embrace gay culture. I saw beyond the hissing bleach-blond queens and saw that there were actually plenty of guys like me, but they were hard to find in gay bars. I met some through work, through other friends and through various clubs and activities. I still go to gay bars, but I'm partnered now so in grateful I don't have to "look for love" there anymore. Of course I met my partner online.

I think gay culture is important and valuable and something we should try to pass on to the younger generation, but we can't do it by hissing at them for being "ignorant". I tell you, gay men are our own worst enemies, because we treat each other with so little empathy and so much misplaced contempt. Everyone's journey is different. And seeing a new generation of gay people coming out and not sequestering themselves in ghettoes and gayborhoods is a good thing. I think the new paradigm of being out and gay everywhere and anywhere is PROGRESS, in its purest form. I'd rather see a generation of unabashedly out gay young people thay eschew gay bars than one that sequesters itself from the mainstream out of calcified fear and misplaced hatred.

To those bemoaning the change: the world has changed since you planted your caftaned ass on that darkly-lit barstool. Turn off the Lisa Stanfield and go out into the world now. You're not the pariah you once were, unless you prefer it that way.

[quote]gay men are our own worst enemies, because we treat each other with so little empathy and so much misplaced contempt.

Some gay men do this. Not all.

But, R89 isn't that how it goes? People forget. I recently was in a bar talking with two 25 (or somewhere in that age range) year olds. Neither had voted in the past Presidential election. I was appalled that the female did not vote given the massive assault upon women's health rights. The young man felt that he was not informed enough to vote.

Young gays are not familiar with or cannot relate to those of us who were beaten, killed, protested and marched for the rights and acceptance that they enjoy today.

But, that's no different than many young women, young Blacks, etc.

What do you do?

I think it's obvious I was speaking in generalities, R93.

Not, it wasn't obvious.

I'm a young gay and I love gay culture. I really don't know how you don't know about it, or seek it out. Gay people have brought so much to society.

New York City, for example. Gay men built NYC, and you can't deny that.

[quote]Not, it wasn't obvious.

Well, I hope it is now since this is my second post explaining that when I wrote "gay men" while relating a personal anecdote on an anonymous web forum, I wasn't referring to every single male human on the planet Earth who experiences a sexual attraction to members of the same sex.

Is there anything else I can clear up for you?

[quote] Most of these young guys have heard of Stonewall, but have no idea what actually transpired there and have no idea of its connection to Judy Garland (yes, I know...MARY!). Hell, they don't even know who Garland is!

The Judy Garland connection was tangential at best. Any assertion otherwise is pure fabrication.

Why gay men drink swill from the trough of "divas", whether Garland or Gaga is pathetic, whether forty years ago or today. Even worse is pinning gay heritage to the likes of these painted birds who had fuck all to do with being gay, then or now.

Clear as in being less than empathetic and having misplaced contempt?

Crystal.

The only person that got it right was the one who alluded to the fact that it's not about age, it's about hipness. I didn't know about Saint Joan in my shameful post-heterofailure period, but the DL set me straight. Thank the lord!

It's a choice. Something hip is presented to you. If you're a dullard you won't get it. Age is irrelevant. However, I will add the caveat that that hip thing needs to be presented in the first place, and that is what's in decline in the digital age.

Canteen culture, where people take what they're given can spread beyond the great unwashed in the absence of choice, which explains the current cultural dearth.

Now to the next point. I think what OP was grasping for, but failed to articulate, is that those who are unthinking assimilationists are throwing out their specialness rather thoughtlessly, and are thinking in shades of black and white. Because one only has to look at the maths to see that you can be as heteronnormative as you like, but ultimately you're a minority and this has benefits that are there for the taking, and should not be ignored.

Throughout history it has been the gays that have shone and made the world a better place for all of us. If we just allow ourselves to be subsumed breederalikes then the world will become a very dreary place.

Perhaps we're overstating it, but instead of this butch or queer world why not just be ourselves, and like what we like and do what we do. I love Joan to death but I also enjoy watching a bit of footie here and there.

What's the point in being queer if you're just going to ape the dullterosexuals? There's enough of them greying up the planet as it is without us aping their stultifying lifestyles.

-gets off soapbox-

Kisses,

[quote]show not a whit of interest in the colorful camp culture that we generations of gay men who came before them built and took refuge in.

Because there is no longer a reason to take refuge anywhere. The bunker mentality has died off. And for that, we should be grateful.

[quote]Gay men built NYC

No. Money built NYC. Not to diminish the impact gay culture had on the city, but to say everything is due to gay men is a gross misunderstanding of the city's history.

Oh. But, we'll diminish it anyways.

[quote]New York City, for example. Gay men built NYC, and you can't deny that.

I always thought the Dutch did.

I guess I'm just a silly, tired old queen. I spent Saturday night watching Stage Door Canteen on hulu. It's such a sentimental, romanticized view of army life during WWII, but I'm suckered into it ever time. The scene where Katharine Cornell plays Juliet to the serviceman's Romeo while he's in the food line is heartbreaking and always has me on the floor in tears. Maybe I'm a walking/talking cliche, but so what?

Ok.

I'm a walking cliché too.

[quote]The "gay community" I witnessed in the early 90s was defined by looksism, body fascism and rigid conformity in thought and appearance.

Thank GOD that's all changed!

[quote]Because there is no longer a reason to take refuge anywhere.

Right, R102. Not even in Manhattan.

So, rich Dutch built NYC?

I guess lots of people in this thread didn't get the point OP's trying to make.

R93/R100, in your campaign to derail the thread (as evidenced by trolldar) I'm not sure why you chose to zero in on me. I was trying to relate my experiences coming out 20+ years ago and finding the gay scene scary and unwelcoming at that time. Instead you're being pedantic about a particular use of the phrase "gay men".

Reading your posts, I have to say that you don't come across as very balanced or knowledgeable. But I find it ironic that you're apparently obsessed with me based on one post where I generalized that gay men as a group are often cruel to one another.

People are different. Gay dudes and bisexual dudes are different from each other. I think the problem is that some people want things to stay the way they were when they came of age, but reality changes over time and cultures. There is a certain subset of gay males that are innately non-conforming, and that is okay. But the problem is that SOME of them want every other gay and bisexual dude to be non-conforming with respect to their interests, lifestyles, mannerisms, and presentation. Most bisexual and gay men today are not non-conforming, they are mainstream. As more people come out and society is more accepting, bi and gay men who would have stayed in the closet or been in denial years ago are also identifying as gay/bi/omni. Most of these dudes are very mainstream in appearance and interest, and over time, they are outnumbering the gay males that were more stereotypical and subculture. It's call maturation and evolution. I think it is great that many gay dudes are mainstream and integrated and don't see any reason to view themselves differently than their heterosexual bros.

Who says you can't have it all?

I've been to showings of Johnny Guitar at Film Forum and Chelsea Clearview and cackled along with all the rest of the gays. I'll then walk down the street and go to a sports bar with my straight roommate and watch a Giants game.

I think the real sad thing is when people feel like they have to be one or the other. If you don't know Johnny Guitar you're missing out. If you don't watch PTI and can't wait to see what Tony and Wilbon say about Rex Ryan Monday afternoons then you're missing out.

I'm 30 btw.

OP, Judy Garland has been dead for 44 years.

Why all the sudden interest in sports? In my day, "pitcher" and "catcher" only meant one thing.

R113,there are no bisexual dudes.

totally agree, ayb

R117 Yes, there are.

I'm 26 and I like doing gay things!

r116, you need to read the above posts. It is not sudden, just that the type of gay/bi dudes who love sports did not publicly identify as gay/bi in the past.

You`ve been 26 a quarter of century ago.

R115. Thank you. These queens that believe knowledge about Liza, Judy, Joan is part of being gay are really fucking tired. 99% of us couldn't give a fuck less.

No one I know or have ever known was a sports fan, unless you count cruising as a sport :). Definitely in the minority in my age range.

I don't know if there are truly "bisexual dudes". All I know is once they settle down, they're either "been gay all along" or outwardly straight with zero bi evidence, references or even recollection.

I've never known a married man who admitted he was bisexual in front of his wife, or known a man who claimed to be bi up to and after meeting his eventual wife. I've never known a woman who knowingly married a bisexual man. They're always "bi" with an exclusively male social group, until they reach a certain age, ditch any and all openly non-straight friends and begin dating women seriously. After that its straightsville all the way and the past never happened.

I suck cock, dammit, and isn't that enough?!!!

r124, you probably hung around people who were just like you, with similar interests. Also, I think sports are even more a part of American culture than they were 50 or 25 years ago. We grow up learning, playing, and following sports with such intensity these days to the point that it has become embedded in our identity. Further, many of us grew up playing sports at an early age and it is second nature. The 1960's and 70s were eons ago with respect to popular culture and preferences. People today are vastly different, and it's a good thing.

[quote]nowadays

My grannie posts on DL now?

Lol R70

I'm gay and I love synchronized swimming!!!

I'm 34 and sports of any kind have always bored the hell out of me. Give me a Joan Crawford movie marathon any day.

R131 You have to watch synchronized swimming ASAP!!!!!

I'd just as soon watch paint dry.

slightly off topic but I too see a reorganization of gay culture... but I'm seeing things settle in and around class structure

all types of gays used to interact together but it seems now that gays are divided by class. Ive noticed that gays stick with their kind now. I used to see all types mingling together because their common desires created more of a community.

Uptown gays and downtown gays used to go to all the same clubs. Much more segmented these days. No?

r134, that is because gays were so stigmatized in the past that they naturally stuck together. today, mainstream acceptance means all gays don't necessarily have an interest in hanging or bonding.

There are two different extremes being discussed on this thread, none of which I (gay 20something male) or any of my other gay male friends fit in.

On one end there is the Broadway show-tunes singing, Judy Garland-worshiping stereotype of gay men; and the other is the heteronormative, straight-emulating, straight-worshiping gaybros. Guess what? Most young gay 20somethings don't fit into either extreme but rather somewhere comfortably in the middle.

Yes, gays have become more mainstream as of late but I still want a unique, separate gay male community. I still want a time and place where I can be around other gay men and not the outnumbered minority of straights. That's why there has been backlash as of late (among young gays, too) of straight women/straight people invading gay space (gay bars/Grindr).

Most gay boys/guys/men will always seek each other's company out, if for nothing else, needing a place to kiss your boyfriend. We are still VERY far away from two men being able to comfortably hold hands/show affection at any random place in the US. And I say this living in LA.

Why is this sad OP? It was the same when you were younger, only those guys you are now dismissing as "assimilated" were doing the same things, but were in the closet about their sexuality. Now, more men are coming out and being the men they are; it's not just for men whose social lives are gay-identified. Gay men, like straight men, have all manner of interests and should be free to be the people they are and not to hide.

Hell, there are even gay sports bars now; why the fuck should it be sad that gay men socialize with their straight male friends.

That's not sad? It's progress.

Judy Garland is apart of gay culture. Why the need to disregard her? To faggy for masculines?

r136, what you mean straight-emulating? You do understand that many gay/bi dudes are naturally masculine and aren't emulating anything, only being themselves and pursuing what they naturally are interested in. I might be understanding you, but you seem to suggest that masculine gay dudes are trying to be heterosexual when they have close straight male friends and live mainstream masculine lives. They usually are not.

R141, do you speak openly about your partner and talk about hot guys with your straight male friends? Just wondering.

The one distressing development I find about the "normalization" of homosexuality is the embrace of the military. When I was young, the notion of gays in the military or the police forces was absolutely repellent. I still feel the same way. I'm also having a hard time dealing with women who love to watch sports on TV. What a waste of time. I always thought women had more sense.

Straight culture? EWW give me fugly drag queens and man purses any day of the week!!

I think R143 is being honest and I think many on Datalounge feel like him.

Ive always tried to purposely blend in, not to draw unwanted attention to myself. Just because you're gay doesn't mean you have to purposely try to become all of the steroetypes. So when I came out to family I told them that it doesn' change who I am. I still like sports, westerns, not fey not trying to make myslef look and act more feminine. Just who I am before, only difference is who i'm open about who I want romanticlly. I think some gay guys and women try to over do it. It's great to be proud and accepting of who you are but no point in my opinion to try to purposely over do the flaunting it. Be who you are, be comfortable in your own skin. Let that speak for itself.

R141, I'm not referring to being naturally masculine or being interested in masculine hobbies/pursuits. I mis-spoke. What I was referring to are the posters who advocate for completely abolishing gay bars/clubs/space and being completely lumped with straight people all of the time.

Nothing wrong with being masculine or "straight acting" but I still want my own separate gay male space. I don't want to be engulfed by and outnumbered by straight people all of the damn time.

[quote]do you speak openly about your partner and talk about hot guys with your straight male friends? Just wondering.

Seeing how my straight male friends dont really talk about hot women or when we are together, it seems sort of silly for me to talk about hot guys. We do talk about whoever it is we are dating, but it's not the only topic of conversation.

Like what you like, be who you want to be. My trouble with these guys is that they want to not be identified with the very people that made it possible to snuggle with their husband while watching the football game, drinking beer with their straight bros.

[quote] I'm also having a hard time dealing with women who love to watch sports on TV. What a waste of time. I always thought women had more sense.

Quite so, R143. It only takes women aware from their truly important work and God-given purpose:

[quote]What I was referring to are the posters who advocate for completely abolishing gay bars/clubs/space

Who here has said that?

I relate to the "Dialing the phone with a pencil" thread much better than this shit.

R146, why the need to go into all of that when you came out to your parents? Why couldn't you just come out?

When you say not be identified, it depends on what you mean. If you mean they disparage, denigrate, insult, or look down on stereotypical gay guys, then yes, that is wrong. But if you mean, they tend not to be friends with stereotypical guys then I think that is just coincidental to the fact that people tend to hang around people who have similar interests, lifestyles. Jocks hang with jocks. Hipsters hang with hipsters. Evangelicals hang with evangelicals. Arabs hang with Arabs. Hikers tend to hang with other outdoorsmen. People should be encouraged to hang with people who are different, but the norm is to hang with people with similar interests.

I thought R148 was a 20 year old. Sorry. It's nice you talk openly about who you are with. That's nice to hear.

[quote]I think [R143] is being honest and I think many on Datalounge feel like him

I think you're 100% right but R143 also sounds about 7,000 years old.

I'm approaching 50 and women watching sports is completely normal to me. Not remotely remarkable. I also don't find those who enjoy sports, regardless of gender, to be lacking "sense". Lots of people like sports. Lots of them are perfectly fine people.

And I'm no jingoistic military supporter but the fight against DADT was about equal rights, equal access and freedom from job discrimination. I don't want to pick up garbage or scrub toilets, but if gay people were being discriminated against taking those jobs I'd fight like hell for their equal rights and mine too!

R113:[quote]Gay dudes and bisexual dudes are different from each other.

R113:[quote]many gay dudes are mainstream and integrated and don't see any reason to view themselves differently than their heterosexual bros.

So gay men and bisexual men are different, but gay men and their heterosexual "bros" are the same? Do you use that brain to solve logic problems, "bro"?

My 25 year old partner discusses me with his straight friends, but they don't invite me. My family ignores him, so it's sort of a trade off.

To expand on what R154 said. If we are talking about people who are a generation or more apart, then no, identifying with them is going to be a lot less likely. This doesn't mean a younger person will disrespect them, it just means that there is not a real lot of common ground. They lived at a different time, had different experiences and different expectations. One set is not better than the other, just different. That's how the world works. If we never moved beyond the tastes of previous generations, we would all still be listing to nothing but John Philip Sousa music.

Has DL hired a professional troll to drum up traffic?

I don't disagree R160, but they don't just "not identify", they exclusively have sex with men and say "I'm not gay, I don't like labels".

R154[quote]People should be encouraged to hang with people who are different, but the norm is to hang with people with similar interests.

And sucking each others' dicks isn't similar enough for you, "bro"?

r162, what percentage of the total "masculine" or nonstereotypical gay/bi men would you guess are like that?

Probably far less than the mainstream media currently lionizing the gaybros would have everyone think, R164.

R162 That is totally different than what we are discussing. The topic is men who identify as gay but do not buy into "gay culture" mindset.

There are still plenty of young guys who camp it up, but they do it just for the attention, so they can pretend they're the centers of the universe. It's their "brand," so to speak. They have nothing of substance to back it up...it's born out of narcissism. In my day, gay men camped it up as a political statement to let the dull breeder world know that we are no like them in any way, shape or form. Does anyone else not get that?

[quote]And sucking each others' dicks isn't similar enough for you, "bro"?

No. Just as for straight men the fact that another man fucks pussy doesn't automatically mean they have other similar interests.

It's exactly that if the motivation isn't being who they are and want to be, but conforming to heteroculture trying to deny the stigma hetero culture has for cocksucking men, ballet dancers or lumberjacks.

R169 Again, that is not the topic. We are talking about guys who identify themselves as gay. They are not closeted, they are not trying to hide who they are. They dont hide the fact that they suck dick. They just are not interested in what gay culture was like twenty or thirty years ago.

I smell Roger Octopus Ninnyhammer. Nothing he loved more than spreading this bro bullshit.

[quote] when I came out to family I told them that it doesn' change who I am. I still like sports, westerns, not fey not trying to make myslef look and act more feminine.

Johnny Guitar is a western. ;)

I think guys who identify as "jock" and call each other "bro" and "dude" are the worst of the self-loathing gay guys. WE GET IT! You can pull off being a dude and slip under the radar, with some effort, no doubt. WE APPLAUD YOU!! But these guys are the most paranoid people you could ever meet, since they always have to censor themselves so that their inner, raging queen doesn't reveal herself. And she's there...living inside of you right now.

There are approximately TEN MILLION gays/lesbians in just the USA alone.

I think there is plenty of room for some of us to be boring suburban materialists with the deck and the SUV and the fat asses and the video-on-demand. And for some of us to be "queer not gay!" and "sex-positive" and "pansexual" and edgy and fuck-the-system, etc. And some of us to be queeny throwbacks to the days when simpering feygays would quote Bette Davis syllable for syllable, gesturing archly with lit cigarettes. TEN MILLION of us. There's room enough for it all.

10 MILLION?

More like 10.

[quote] they always have to censor themselves so that their inner, raging queen doesn't reveal herself.

*sigh* its the tired old claptrap line that a man who behaves in a masculine manner must be really hiding something he considers shameful. Yawn.

I'm curious. If you can accept there are gay men who naturally behave in a feminine manner, why is it so hard to believe there are gay men who are naturally masculine?

[quote]Has DL hired a professional troll to drum up traffic?

I've suspected this for years. It would explain why some seemingly innocuous threads/topics are banned or deleted for no reason, but some of the most egregious troll threads go on and on, unabated.

The other thing, and only a couple have alluded to it, is that we are FAR from being able to discuss our sex lives and even love lives with our straight male friends. What a lot of the gaybros have achieved is tolerance, not acceptance.

And the sad fact is, the vast majority of the straight 'acceptance' is actually just mouldy old tolerance in disguise. They'll say "It's cool man, you're just like us, I don't care." and in that is the hidden message that they don't want to hear about it. They're just putting up with it because that's what they feel you should do. And most of the time you're being patronised. It's not their fault, they can't help it. This will probably not be the case in 20 years because a lot of the younger generation don't seem to have this hang up.

And gaybros, if you don't believe me- try chiming in about your love woes next time one of your straight mates is bitching about his woman and see how quickly the subject is changed. Don't judge them- they have been socialised to think this way by the omnipresent heteronormative bullshit.

Like I said, the next generation doesn't have that as much. We all know where this is heading. In 100 years people will probably just sleep with whoever they want and no one will bat an eyelid.

Anyway despite the above diatribe, I'm not bitter. I can remember when I thought I was one of them in the late 90s and my attitude was far from positive, like theirs. They've come a long way, but change is slooooooooowww.

Tread carefully, gaybros.

Anyway- the most important question is in 100 years will they remember Joan?

yeah, this is probably a troll post. bleh.

{quote]In my day, gay men camped it up as a political statement to let the dull breeder world know that we are no like them in any way, shape or form. Does anyone else not get that?

For fuck's sake, a bunch of wannabe behind closed doors Addison deWitts, camping it up at all-gay dinner parties, using "she" for "he" and calling each other Sheila and Marie-Thérèse, dishing out double entendres...it doesn't get much more political than that.

I think what OP is describing isn't even a gay problem or rather, it's a generational/cultural/social problem - it's [bold]cultural impovrishment[/bold]. The last generation is mostly shallow, ignorant and proud of it too!! They (gay, straight and everything in between) don't think anything existed before them and if they know it did, they don't think its relevant to them in any way. They don't know anything about anything - art, history, philosophy, any kind of other knowledge. All they care about is their damn iphones, celebrities and "having fun". That's what you get when you raise a generation of narcissists on reality tv and a failing education system.

As a civilization, we are regressing.

What the fuck is wrong with being separate? What is wrong with having our own space? When I go to a cruisy leather bar, I really don't want to see a pretty young thang and his gaggle of fag hags invading the joint. They already have the rest of the world to party in.

What R182 said. It's just so true.

It's all fun and games until you want to kiss another man in public, comment about what a hot ass a sports figure has, get married, be safe from being fired, be a Scout leader, etc. etc.

No, the world is not full of accepting or even tolerating bros.

That's why we need to stick together to fight for our rights, not just hang out in sports bar, pretending all's for the best in this best of all possible worlds.

Get That reference, kids?

Damn straight R77. I wear that brand with pride.

Totally agree with R181!

OP just as you are not interested in whatever pop culture was created by your grandparents' generation, young gay people are not interested in what passed for pop culture during your time.

[R184] sports barS

This is such a stupid thread.

It reads like one 80-year-old shut in arguing with another 80-year-old shut in pretending to be 25.

[quote]I think what OP is describing isn't even a gay problem or rather, it's a generational/cultural/social problem - it's [bold]cultural impovrishment.[/bold]

Oh, dar.

Think about how much gay culture has become part of straight culture. That's progress.

Personally, I'm glad young people have it easier today. Who wants to put another generation through the shit we went through?

Pop culture is disposable, which is a huge tragedy, but is in the very nature of the beast No one will remember the songs and films that meant so much to you when you were young except diehard cultural scholars--unless they were genuinely great on their own terms and are thus elevated to the realm of high art.

Unfortunately, none of Rosalind Russell's films (with the exception of "His Girl Friday") was truly great--everything else she did that we older gay men love (like "Auntie Mame" and "The Trouble with Angels") was mostly campy fun. And campy fun just doesn't last the way high art does--the younger gay generation has their own idea of what constitutes camp that speaks to them. They don't remember the beatnik poets and the debutantes that "Auntie Mame" mocks, or that there once were such things as all-girl Catholic boarding schools run by nuns in full habits. They need to find campiness in things that have meaning to them and their generation's own concerns.

BUT BUT immigrants have to assimilate. Even though their cultures are much more rooted in history than the superficiality of gay culture.

But we gay men are so special that we need to be separate!

"assimilate" sounds like you've been watching too much Star Trek the Next Generation Borg stuff.

Straights will always be separate from gays. They like pussy, gays like ass. We have to accept them and stop trying to change them to our way of thinking.

Guys who "act straight" obviously don't want to be associated with the gay mystique. They prefer to keep their homosexual urges secret. So what? It's a free world!

Nothing wrong with "straight culture" either. It's their right. They shouldn't be insulted for it. It's their thing and it's a free world.

Time are changing and we must change with along with it. Resistance is futile.

...the vast majority of posters who actually AGREE with OP's premise are:

(1) single, and likely to remain that way until death;

(2) bitter, therefore.

"Straights will always be separate from gays. They like pussy, gays like ass. We have to accept them and stop trying to change them to our way of thinking"

Huh? No one is trying to make straight guys magically turn gay...I think you missed the point of this thread entirely.

Saying it's a free world makes no sense either - freedom means freedom to criticize people.

"That's what you get when you raise a generation of narcissists on reality tv and a failing education system."

Because people in older generations didn't care about pop culture. Oh, wait, they did.

[quote] failing education system

Yes, because schools need to teach children the films of Rosalind Russell and Joan Crawford.

Fuck you, op.

I do think it's a rather sad that young gay men have never seen, much less heard of, the original "The Women." They also have no idea who George Kukor, Adrian, Franklin Pangborn, and any of our other gay "founding fathers" were, which is a whole other tragedy. I find old Hollywood absolutely fascinating, and do a lot of my peers. I think if the younger generation could be exposed to such things, they too would be fascinated and give up these straight pretenses like sports and cigars, which I find inauthentic. What's next? Will they be chasing pussy?

Kids! I don't know what's wrong with these kids to-day.

Kids! Who could guess that they would turn out that way?

Why can't they be like WE were, perfect in every waaay,

What's the matter with kids to-daaaaay

[quote]George Kukor (sic),

Wow, just wow. Any point you may have was totally destroyed.

Last night I met this young homoboy who -- get this -- HAD NOT EVEN SEEN GAGA's BAD ROMANCE VIDEO!!???!?! And oh it gets worse. He has never even viewed a single old episode of DRAG RACE.

I'm like Hul-LO??? Basic boot camp, Fag 101 anyone?? How hard is it to click some links and get caught up on what's IMPORTANT??!?!?!

It's beyond depressing. These children know nothing. NOTHING. #icouldweep

Cultures do change. No one in Rome is worshipping Venus and watching chariot races anymore either.

Try having a convo with a young gay guy about which was the greater feud--Bette Davis vs. Miriam Hopkins or Bette Davis vs. Joan Crawford--and they look at you like you have three eyes. These kids should know how to have a decent dialogue about such things.

It is not just the young gays. Most people under 30 have little knowledge of the Arts, Classical music, Jazz, Architecture, Cinema, Literature etc. That's the reality sadly.

"Most people under 30 have little knowledge of the Arts, Classical music, Jazz, Architecture, Cinema, Literature etc."

Most people over 30 have little knowledge of the Arts, Classical music, Jazz, Architecture, Cinema, Literature, etc. You think most elderly people are sitting around listening to Beethoven and reading books about Le Corbusier? Trust me, they're not. They're sitting on the couch, watching reruns of CSI.

What 25-year-old even knows what the Moldavian Massacre was? DL should publish a textbook of gay history 101 for the young set.

This whole thread stinks of nursing home.

OP misses The Closet.

Bette Davis and Joan Crawford? That was like 60 years ago.

To extrapolate backward with the math, consider younger and middle aged people in 1953. It's easy to imagine that in 1953 they no longer cared about (or even knew of) celebrities and public figures from way back in 1893.

[quote] What 25-year-old even knows what the Moldavian Massacre was? DL should publish a textbook of gay history 101 for the young set.

R208 (who nicely proves R207's point) mistakes what's important to him for what's important.

I'm 53. Have always had a diverse group of friends. I feel sorry for my gay friends who only hang out with other gays. Seems like a ghetto.

For many out there, gay men are the ones who are often ahead of the curve and on the cutting edge of trends and fashion. It's sort of hard to maintain that position if you are stuck in the days when airships were considered state of the art transport.

r213, ditto for me too. I love my straight female, gay male, gay female, and straight male friends!!

"I feel sorry for my gay friends who only hang out with other gays. Seems like a ghetto."

It cuts both ways - many straights (especially straight men) do not want to be friends with gays. Some gays only feel comfortable around other gays because they have been rejected by straights or because they believe straights will reject them.

Yes, I'd like to send this letter to the Prussian consulate in Siam by aeromail. Am I too late for the 4:30 autogyro?

Call me old fashioned, but movies were sexier when the actors kept their clothes on! Vilma Banky could do more for me with one raised eyebrow than an entire- what?

[quote]It cuts both ways - many straights (especially straight men) do not want to be friends with gays.

I have never had this experience. The majority of my friends are straight men. It wasn't like I planned it to be that way, it just happened.

[quote]It cuts both ways - many straights (especially straight men) do not want to be friends with gays. Some gays only feel comfortable around other gays because they have been rejected by straights or because they believe straights will reject them.

No one under the age of 50 talks like this.

It cuts both ways - many straights (especially straight men) do not want to be friends with gays."

Only if you are nelly

"No one under the age of 50 talks like this."

You're dumb. It has nothing to do with being under or over 50, it's about acknowledging that many (but not all) straights are still prejudiced against gays (especially ones that aren't conventionally masculine). But I guess it's easier for some gays to attack other gays for being in a "ghetto" than it is to attack straights for being homophobic.

If anything, some straight guys seem to expect gay guys to be a bit femme. Many straight guys won't admit it, but they have a sensitive side too.

Of course, now the references they have to gay men are more varied than Jack on Will and Grace, so it's less likely that a straight guy will expect his teammate to become a big show queen overnight after coming out.

[quote]it's about acknowledging that many (but not all) straights are still prejudiced against gays

Maybe that's your experience. But its not the same for everyone, especially those born after 1980. If you look at the pols as to who supports gay marriage, people under 30 are overwhelmingly for it. The homophobic straight male is seen as relic from another time to young people, both gay and straight.

[quote]You're dumb. It has nothing to do with being under or over 50

Yes, it has everything to do with being over 50.

The world has changed, grampa.

[quote]You're dumb. It has nothing to do with being under or over 50

This thread's title tends to disagree.

I don't know if this will make any sense as I am not especially good at articulating my thoughts. My take on the subject is that for 60 years or so, movies and TV were a place to hide for us. We grew up feeling outside the mainstream and sought refuge in a world we could feel comfortable in because we did not see people like us. Funny how many times you hear someone on DL say they like certain movies and stars long before they knew what gay even was, much less knew anyone who was. People under 30 have grown up seeing gays as part of the mainstream and didn't grow up the way we did (I'm 57).

As others have said, this sword cuts both ways. We've spent years fighting for equality but it comes at a price. A lot of ethnic Americans have a similar sense of loss as their communities become assimilated and their language and the old neighborhoods are not part of their lives to the same degree as previous generations.

[quote]Most people over 30 have little knowledge of the Arts, Classical music, Jazz, Architecture, Cinema, Literature, etc. You think most elderly people are sitting around listening to Beethoven and reading books about Le Corbusier? Trust me, they're not. They're sitting on the couch, watching reruns of CSI.

Well said.

R224, not in most places in the United States.

R229, you don't know what you are talking about. You're too old and stubborn.

OP, I find it sad that so many young gays can't name the three branches of government or practice safe enough sex to keep from spreading HIV.

But your Mildred Pierce thing seems super important too.

[quote]look at the pols as to who supports gay marriage, people under 30 are overwhelmingly for it.

This is true. The younger you are the more likely it is you will support gay marriage, know a gay person and have overall a positive attitude about gay people. People like R229 are posting either from 1990 or some ignorant backwater.

Young gay people are not assimilating to "straight culture" (as if such a thing exists). They are simply doing the things they enjoy which happen to be things their straight friends enjoy as well.

As a feminine gay woman, I have much in common with straight women. I just like females(feminine) sexually

The OP's premise is weird. Young gay men have created their own gay culture separate both from the straight world AND older gay men.

You do realize that younger straight people also don't pay attention to the culture of the older straight generation do you??

I don't necessarily see young gay guys rejecting gay culture. Many are stereotypically gay-- they just have different and younger gay cultural references. Why should gay culture be stuck in the 1950's-1960's??

And thank god that butch gay men can pursue whatever it is they like and be OPENLY gay while doing it.

I truly think that people that put so much stock in being gay are probably boring people whose only cache is "I am a sexual minority"-- hence they yearn for the days that being gay was something that had to be underground.

r184 So because SOME(okay a lot of) straight men are homophobes, that means all gay men should avoid any friendship with anyone that is a straight man(or straight women)??

I don't know any gay man/boy under 30 that is deluded to think all straight people are open minded and accepting. But why live life avoiding 95% of the population, especially as more of them are becoming less homophobic? I don't look down on those that choose to live in gay ghettos, but that isn't for everyone.

Also why the assumption that gay men that enjoy sports and other (stereotypically) masculine hobbies are even enjoying them with straight men?? There ARE gay male sports clubs, bars and teams all over the country! And people wonder why masculine gay men are weary of femme gay men. They think they own the gay experience!!

I have always known when a guy is gay. Even the most masculine, Thor-like dude...I have known he was gay. Sorry to ruin your party.

And, "nelly" is most fem word. But, I love it.

[all posts by flame bait troll #11 removed (violent racist homophobic right-wing misogynist), ISP notified with full text of all posts.]

Why? Cause I'm a flamer?

Why don't you just call me a faggot? I'm sure you do anyways. Go for it here.

[all posts by flame bait troll #11 removed (violent racist homophobic right-wing misogynist), ISP notified with full text of all posts.]

Put your butt in dick sauce...

Every gay man alive is like this, so I don't get how gay guys are assimilated into "straight culture".

R241 SFIFTL

r241, lmao!!

s

I love masculine mainstream bi and gay dudes who are unit sports and hang with the bros. they reflect how far society has regressed.

Grow up OP, dude

R45 that was some really shitty writing.

"Oh time, oh evil time." Fucking cornball

OP, you need to get with the times, bro.

Most guys want to be part of the mainstream and don't want to be viewed as abnormal or unmanly. They don't want to compromise their manhood because of their orientation. Gay culture is not very masculine and therefore not appealing to many bi and gay men.

Blah blah blah. Christopher Lowell certainly believed he was passing for straight.

progress

They used to say the same thing about Jews.

I'm glad that young gay men don't have to deal with the awful stuff that routinely shaped lives in the past. A lot of the changes are on the backs of men who came before them (ha, yeah I know, I see that) but young men have to be given their credit for their honesty, courage and self confidence. I'm proud of all of our generations.

Thank God they don't like Joan Crawford or "Johnny Guitar." It's one thing to be gay.

It's another thing to be a QUEEN!

Oh the effeminates can't stand that no honest guy wants anything to do with their act or agenda. Boo Hoo.

the gays have been pulling away from the old school divas for decades. generationally it was bound to happen.

[quote]OP, I find it sad that so many young gays can't name the three branches of government or practice safe enough sex to keep from spreading HIV.

But your Mildred Pierce thing seems super important too.

I love you, R231.

OP is that "Against Equality" nutcase Ryan Conrad.

[quote]the gays have been pulling away from the old school divas for decades

I didn't read the thread, but I've been hearing about this supposed connection between some "gay" guys and old actress/singers. I've never really believed it because I've never known anyone who's been like that, but could someone explain why there's talk about it on here all the time? It's definitely a weirdass fixation. I mean as a guy who likes guys, why would I be even remotely interested in something like that?

Let's see... I think dudes are hot, so.... I've got it! I'll obsess about pussy!

[quote]No one speaks of pavilions anymore, and that makes me sad.

Nor know the language of the fan!

The flutter, the backward flutter, the snap, the pointed j'accuse --

My heart is breaking!

It's not the pussy... it's the sequinned pantsuits. And the suffering!

[quote]They also have no idea who George Kukor,

Oh dear.

OP, you sound sad, dude

Why does there have to be a difference between "gay culture" and "straight culture?" No one has the power to go through a list of (non-sexual) activities and mark some as gay and others as straight.

Op, what I'm tired of is the fact that glory-hole queens are still trying to portray a 'dine and dash' sexual lifestyle as being intrinsically gay, when it's not. Straight people also have anonymous quickie encounters. And there are gay people who are monogamous and bond for life.

Just because you like passing your bum around like the dreidel on Hannukah, that des not make that sort of thing 'gay liberation'. It just means you're a whore darlin'. And that's not 'slut shaming', Mr queer studies, it's just the truth.

Well states, r265.

I agree OP. You know what I find the most annoying? When other gays defend celebrities straightness, like they're just SO offended that anyone could possibly think said celebrities are gay! I'm like what?! We can't even discuss celebrities and their sexualities anymore without being attacked by other people in our own community? It's like being gay is offensive. I'm just baffled.

267...huh??

Hon, you're on the wrong thread.

[quote]The other thing, and only a couple have alluded to it, is that we are FAR from being able to discuss our sex lives and even love lives with our straight male friends.

Hearing my straight friends talking about sucking pussy kind of nauseates me so it doesn't surprise me or bother me that they don't want to hear me talking about taking a big dick. But, I have never had an issue talking about relationships with my straight friends. Of course, for me a relationship is about love and companionship - not just the sex.

truly stupid statement.

Gays have been assimilated into straight culture since, well, forever.

You wanna know how many STRAIGHT MARRIED men ask to suck my cock?

Now there will be gay married men too.

Sheesh.

Although I miss the gay culture that existed in my younger days, I am glad our younger gays have can explore their own interests. I always did because I never let being gay be the end-all in my life.

whatever dude

I see it as progress

Old queens need to get over it.

There are young straight kids who are film nerds and are very into the classic Hollywood stars and films. So Joan will live on, but as a cinema icon, not a purely gay or - ugh - 'Queer' icon.

We must learn to share these aspects of gay culture, and also accept that young gay guys will do there own thing, and find their own icons.

A lot of the gay icons are tired cliches anyway. What a loss- the inability to have a lengthy discussion about Joan Crawford. Abandon hope.

[quote]The other thing, and only a couple have alluded to it, is that we are FAR from being able to discuss our sex lives and even love lives with our straight male friends.

It's a somewhat rare intimacy that allows you to discuss your sex life with someone. I guess many straight guys do so with each other, and many gay guys do so with each other, but beyond that: ew. Why would you need or want to?

If you can't talk about your love life with someone, they are not a friend. Period.

Just know this - back in the early '70s, the biggest fear for the gay community was assimilation. Then in the '90s, when people started bringing up kids and marriage (I know they did before, but then it became a big deal), people started moaning about heteronormativity.

We're always going to eat our own - it's the nature of culture. And I think it sucks as well, but gay culture belongs to the kids now, the ones who think "gay" is too restricting and wouldn't live in the Castro if you paid them. It really sucks, because we needed those places, we built those places, we built those identities, and now you just discard it like it was nothing.

I'm not making a value judgment - it's just the way of things. Still sucks.

What would be the benefit of staying stuck at a moment in time?

R257 is a prime example of what we've lost - it wasn't because they were women idiot, it was their LIVES. Most of you are taking the edges for the entire - it's great that for a lot of people in the '70s and so on that they got to live these great gay lives - but many more thousands and thousands did not. They stayed in Omaha and Madison and Sioux City, and maybe people knew or they didn't, but they were never going to have the lives of their friends and family and they knew it - but a diva, a hurt, prideful, not going to fucking take it, I have been THERE child, diva, singing about pain? That kept them going, and THAT is why they love them so much.

For God's sake... you really imagine a mass of gay people sustained by divas? What an odd little world you occupy to believe such a ridiculous claim. Sorry to be so harsh but honestly, I'm fifty, and I can't name a single friend who maintained the will to live based thanks to Judy Garland or Diana Ross. I've met your kind, who think there's some gay manual of cliches... I had a friend once who literally had a pair or replica ruby slippers displayed in pride of place. Tedium and unreflective of reality. There is no homogenous gay culture to either live or mourn.

[quote]They stayed in Omaha and Madison and Sioux City

Plenty of people did and do lead out lives in such places. imho it's far braver and produces just as much, if not more, significant change than gathering in the ghettos.

R279 - go learn what evidence is, and why your personal experience doesn't invalidate everyone else's. You bleat like a fat bitch.

It just means more people are comfortable coming out, OP. Not just the obvious ones, but younger guys who 20 years ago might have decided to just stay in the closet since they had nothing in common with the Mildred Pierce lovers.

I think it is sad that you care so much about dead culture or celebrities. Why don't you join meetup and start a club for Roz? Then you can sit down and talk pointlessly about her career for 45 minutes. Those guys talk about football pointlessly for 45 minutes can do so with their peers in a bar.

Not everyone has to like the same things. Not everyone has to conform to the same stereotypes.

Both topics are boring to me. So does politics. I don't drink or do drugs either. Someone would consider what I find interesting boring too: my sex life.

ITA @ R280. Now people don't have to escape to a far away cities, leave their families and friends and start a new life. They are embraced and accepted right where they live. How can that be bad?

.

Oh, for fucks sake. OP, did it ever occur to you that the reason some gay men follow sports is not because they are trying to assimilate, but because they LIKE sports? Do you think a gay guy who likes sports should suppress that and live a lie so your feelings wont be hurt? Do you want them to pretend to be something they are not? Are you really that insecure? Are you really that much in need of validation that this makes you sad?

Get over it, not everyone wants to live their life like they stepped out of a stereotype catalog circa 1971.

There's no such thing as Broadway-related brain injuries.

Who cares? Let them call each other bras and watch football. I didn't like the whole Joan-Bette-Bette-Judy-Liza thing when I was their age. I can't imagine it's more relevant to people who weren't even born yet when the divas were in their prime.

I hated disco when I was young. That plus the diva obsession made me feel as if there was no place for me in the gay community other than the one I occupied while having sex.

I've never assimilated into straight culture, though. Gays having children? No, thanks. Sports, no way no day. Marriage, maybe if I had a partner.

But other people are welcome to do these things. I'm not "sad" about it at all.

Liking sports is not a sexual orientation issue. Older gays seem so closed minded and into archaic stereotypes.

R289 - I agree, and I'm 43.

I feel sorry for older gays who can't understand that the reason you see so many gay men into "straight culture" (whatever that is) today is because in generations past, those were the gay men likely to remain closeted their whole lives.

I AM an old ninny and i agree -- it IS progress.

Assimilation hasn't made heterosexual culture more interesting. It's just made gay culture more dull.

There is actually a current thread on DL about the Giants.

OP, we kept to ourselves and didn't take part in hetronormative activities because if we had, we'd get beaten up. We had no other options.

I would be curious what OP thinks, all these replies onward.

I think the sure sign that you're getting old is when you start criticizing "young people." Joan Crawford, Mildred Pierce herself, did it. She went after Marilyn Monroe back in the 50s and created this huge fuss

Some day it might be possible that you may meet a person, and discuss the work of, say, Judy Garland or Joan Crawford, and concurrence on their contributions to culture won't automatically label your new acquaintance as "gay."

What is surprising the young have no interest in culture, the arts..or does that come with "old age?" I was chatting with a 20 something, "I'm not into cultural stuff."

The OP isn't criticizing "young people" for their youth. He's criticizing the cultural stagnancy of the American middle class and the fact that this is an ideal that a good number of gays seem to be aspiring to.

Some people may ask where the OP gets off criticizing people's right to be boring. And, that's fair.

But, back during the fifties and sixties (and seventies and eighties), people didn't expect to be applauded for being normal. They didn't expect to be applauded for wanting to fit in. Gays who live a traditional lifestyle shouldn't expect that either. The counterculture is called the counterculture for a reason.

OP,

The fact that so many people on this board have felt the need to justify themselves and attack you is at least one good result that came from gay liberation.

Living a normal life isn't something that's taken for granted anymore, it has to be justified and this is something that more and more straights are realizing as well which is why they are refusing marriage, monogamy, and children. In other words, they themselves want to live the "gay lifestyle" even as shamefaced gays try to distance themselves from it. The "good gays"'ll be shocked when they don't get the brownie points they think they deserve.

Even if it's true that camp is probably dead, at least it wasn't for nothing.

R299 I dont think the opinion of one 20 something is an indicator of everyone from their generation. I know one guy in his 20s who is interested in opera. The problem is, there is really no place for him to go to see one. He would have to travel into a major city and the expense is beyond what he can realistically afford right now. Another I know is into jazz and wants to make a living playing it. But where? Maybe if hes lucky he gets to play at the cocktail hour for some corporate function once in a while, but its not like there are jazz clubs on every corner. There really are not that many opportunities for them to even be exposed to culture let alone develop a taste for it.

But Madame Bovary, OP isn't criticizing cultural stagnancy or your conflated 'right to be boring.' He's whining because young gays identify less with the cliches of some older gays. Read his OP again. It's all about Roz Russell and Johnny Guitar and Joan Crawford. Known, yes, but hardly the high water mark in American culture, although they do shine brightly in the pantheon of gay stereotypes for sitcoms.

I met an extremely attractive young man at a party, and when I attempted to engage him in conversation about current events he looked at me blankly and said, "I'm 21."

[quote]I'm 21

TRANSLATION: Go away. I'm not interested.

Just because someone is gay doesn't mean they are required to like the same movies, music and other forms of entertainment that you do.

I find it annoying when some gay men treat others as "closeted" just because they aren't into Barbara Streisand or can't rattle of quotes from Mommy Dearest, or don't love musicals.

I'm 100% gay and have been out for decades and I never listened to or watched any of that. I'm just not interested in that, period.

It was bad enough growing up being expected to like "straight" things like sports that I was never in to, only to come out and have gays give me shit for not acting "gay" enough or fawning over some specific set of "gay" entertainment.

[quote] but hardly the high water mark in American culture,

Yes, but the “high water marks” of American culture have traditionally been straight male oriented. Roth, Mailer, Updike, Fitzgerald, and other dicks. Or, had their queerness diluted when taught in school- Tennyson, Whitman, Copland, etc.

That’s why camp matters. It challenged the idea that high culture was different from low culture and the inherent prejudice involved in that. The offshoot of this, of course, is that the canon of literature and art that gay culture parodied and mocked is no longer taught in schools.

But, it cuts both ways and the racism, sexism, and other social mores found in many classic films will be alienating to modern and young audiences, gay or straight.

Kids! Kids! Laughing, singing, dancing, grinning, morons! And while we're on the subject! Kids! They are just impossible to control! Kids! With their awful clothes and their rock an' roll! Why can't they dance like we did What's wrong with Sammy Kaye? What's the matter with kids today!

R307 What? You think others consider hacks like Mailer and Updike are among the "high water marks"? What am I? Chopped liver?

R306, what were/are you interested in?

[quote]It was bad enough growing up being expected to like "straight" things like sports that I was never in to, only to come out and have gays give me shit for not acting "gay" enough or fawning over some specific set of "gay" entertainment.

I agree. The myth/fantasy of the rainbow fades with every generation. Fearing change, many lash out.

I want to know, too, r306.

[quote] The myth/fantasy of the rainbow fades with every generation. Fearing change, many lash out

There's a difference between fear and lament, darling.

I always take people so seriously who invoke 'darling'.

Fear, lament, torch song, whatever... the entire gay community was never singing The Man that Got Away with Judy and there's even less of them doing it now. Sir.

Well said R306. Once here on DL I was told I am self-loathing because I never saw The Sound of Music. And my parents are homophobes because they never made me watch it. For the record, my parents met at a Dead Kennedys show. That they would want to watch The Sound of Music is as likely as them taking up square dancing.

For some reason, I was under the impression that to be gay also meant you can be who you are, enjoy the things you like despite what others may say. Express Yourself. I Am What I Am. Yet, because I can only name one Judy Garland picture or associate the name Barbara as being part of a running gag on South Park, I am less than gay? Sorry, it doesn't work that way. You can not tell someone they should be true to themselves while also saying they should follow someones particular idea of "culture". I think its great the older gays have their own icons and touchstones. Every generation has that. I know the things I like are not for everyone and I'm okay with that. Is it too much to ask people like OP to know the same applies to them?

[quote] I always take people so seriously who invoke 'darling'.

Quel misogynie!

[quote] Fear, lament, torch song, whatever...

Oh, no. Words have definitions for a reason. You were being a drama queen with you shriek of "fear" and I alerted you to that slight embarassment. You're welcome. *Wink*

[quote] Sir.

I've been validated as a man! As a man! I've just got to tell everyone I know!!!!!

[quote] associate the name Barbara

Oh, dear.

R313... you're precious by any gender, in a flatulent sort of way, if not discerning. But congratulations on mastering Thesaurus.com.

R317

yawn

.

r318,

A thesaurus lists synonyms. I'll let you noodle on that, if you can.

No, I'm happy to have gotten under your presumably ample, sagging skin.

[quote] Once here on DL I was told I am self-loathing because I never saw The Sound of Music.

I've never seen it either, though I've watched bits of it off and on. It's a very long movie. If someone had said that to me I would take it as a joke which it probably was.

The thing about fitting in is that you have to make an effort. It isn't something just handed out to you. If you go to a beer tasting and you don't know anything about beer, will you get made fun of? Yes.

The same is true with pop gay culture and gay subcultures (bears, leather, drag).

If it bothers you so much, just watch the movie. Or, don't. Just expect to get your "balls busted".

I can only take the breeders for so long - then I'm very happy to rejoin my gay friends. Why would a gay man want to be in the company of straight men all the time?

Hurrah for conditional acceptance. See! We can be just as unimaginative, materialistic and conformist as the heteros are. Then maybe they'll like us. Yay gays!

[quote]The thing about fitting in is that you have to make an effort. It isn't something just handed out to you.

I guess that is true, but I don't see much of a point in making an effort in fitting in with people if I don't have much in common with them. Its just easier and more satisfying to be around others when we share common interests and activities and tastes. If those people are gay or straight is irrelevant. That most of my friends are straight is not something I planned, it just happened. That I would much rather watch a ball game than an old movie is not because I am trying to assimilate into "straight culture". Its because thats what I prefer. If that makes someone like OP sad, well, I'm sorry, but I am living my life the way I want to, just as he is living his life the way he wants to. The thing is, reading OP it sounds like maybe he is devoted to these icons not because he thinks they are great, but because he thinks that is what is expected of him.

As far as ever seeing The Sound of Music. Maybe someday I will, but there are tons of other films I have yet to see on my list.

[quote]If those people are gay or straight is irrelevant

This is an old and tired phrase. Absolute nonsense.

[quote]I see it as progress

[quote]It's progress, you old ninnies

Emulating straight culture = progress?

Wow, so many stupid people in this thread.

Straight culture is a dead end.

Well, let’s just say we’re even. You got pissed at me when I called you out for your poor and overdramatic word choice. I got pissed at you for your flagrant ignorance of what words actually mean. (You found my Achilles' heel, r321. I'm anal when it comes to literacy.)

Anyway, let’s shake on it like gentlemen, kay?

Younger people in general don't seem to care about what happened more than 10 years ago. It doesn't matter if they're gay, straight or bi, it's a generational thing that crosses gender, sexual and racial lines. At most, their cultural awareness goes back to the 80's, and that's only because that's when their parents were young, and they've seen the parental's TV shows and films, and listened to their music growing up.

As Detective Gayerson points out, r325, it does matter whether they're gay or straight. Where did you get your interest in ball games from in the first place?

The reason why baseball and other sports,etc are still a thing is because straights pass that down to their children. For reasons that may be obvious to you, gay culture doesn't work that way.

[quote] That most of my friends are straight is not something I planned, it just happened.

The reason most of your friends are straight is because most of your friends are straight. If you had been raised in gay culture likely most of your friends would be gay as well.

[quote] That I would much rather watch a ball game than an old movie is not because I am trying to assimilate into "straight culture".

No, it's because your culture was killed. That's why the few remnants that are left matter.

There's always going to be a tension. If you try to have total assimilation, you'll lose distinctiveness and culture. If you try to have separate but equal, you'll never see an end to discrimination and homophobia.

We just need to keep moving forward and hoping to find a balance and stop accusing each other because they're on one side or other of a moving line.

[quote]Emulating straight culture = progress?

No, I was quite clear in what I wrote.

It's a sign of progress because in generations past the kind of gay men who didn't feel comfortable in the gay subculture would not have been out at all. We have reached a point of acceptance and openness that allows for all kinds of gay people to come out and live their lives honestly.

Who the fuck wants to be normal?

Being different, deliciously deviant from the dull herd, is the greatest gift of gay.

Blend in? I can't think of anything worse.

That's for the boring, the stupid, and the weak.

I'm of two minds on this. I'm 32, and very into gay rights. I'm proud to be a member of the community and will always identify as gay.

On the other hand, I see how fucked up embracing that outsider gay culture has made some members of the older generation who used that "outsider" excuse in order to never grow the fuck up.

I mean, men in their 40's and 50's going to sex parties, dancing shirtless in clubs, etc., etc. It's like they don't know how to age gracefully because they've never had a model of how to do that as a gay man.

You can strongly identify as gay, advocate for gay causes, etc. while not making your entire life about "gay culture." Because, honestly, if you don't look a certain way (white/wealthy/ripped/masc) the mainstream gay community isn't for you.

I personally am much happier keeping my exposure to "gay culture" to a minimum and being free from the constraints of always having to go to "gay" restaurants/bars/neighborhoods/etc. There is a great big world out there.

Keep telling yourself that r333

[quote] I mean, men in their 40's and 50's going to sex parties, dancing shirtless in clubs, etc., etc. It's like they don't know how to age gracefully because they've never had a model of how to do that as a gay man.

Are golf and strip clubs better? I mean for every "negative" aspect of gay culture, there's something that corresponds to straight culture.

[quote]Where did you get your interest in ball games from in the first place?

Two words: Keith Hernandez. I was about eight when the Mets made it to the World Series. I saw him on the news getting interviewed while they were in the play offs and my little gay heart skipped a beat or two. I started watching the games so I could see him and eventually grew to enjoy the sport. My interests in sports has nothing to do with straight assimilation. If anything its the opposite.

I love sports. It has nothing to do with my sexual orientation. Stop trying to make things that are not related to sexual orientation into some fake "gay culture" or sexual orientation thing. That is why so many same-sex oriented men don't identify as gay/bi although they are open about their interest in dudes. Stop trying to make things that have nothing to do with one's attraction to the same-sex into "gay things" or gay culture.

What's wrong with golf?!

I think it just seems that way to the OP, and I am probably as old if not older than him. There are just more out gays these days. Those who were and are into the things OP mentions, and I include myself in that group, are a subset of a much larger community. Forty years ago they were probably most of the people who were out and it must have seemed like most gay men were like that.

And then there was AIDS; there are fewer people our age to carry on with. Imagine if all those people were still alive. I don't think we'd be having the discussion.

[quote] Where did you get your interest in ball games from in the first place?

[quote] Two words: Keith Hernandez. I was about eight when the Mets made it to the World Series. I saw him on the news getting interviewed while they were in the play offs and my little gay heart skipped a beat or two.

This is why they hate us.

[quote]There is a great big world out there.

Yes there is r334. And if you traveled in it as a self-identified gay man you'd understand that a gay man is going to have a rough or impossible time of it if he turns to straights for acceptance.

For the most part the world is decidedly anti-gay.

And of course there is diversity amongst gay men. I enjoy sports, as well. But to sit around with a group of pussy hounds watching the World Cup? No.

Is it internalized homophobia that makes younger men seek out the company of straights? I honestly don't understand it.

[quote] What's wrong with golf?!

It's the stereotypical straight male "dicking out of responsibilities at home with the wife and kids" activity. It could have easily said video games.

The point is that straight males aren't expected to be grown ups, either.

[quote] I love sports. It has nothing to do with my sexual orientation.

Wanna wrassle?

Hear, hear, R340.

Back in the day, all gays were seen as mincing, lisping fairies. Being shocked that young gays don't know who Joan Crawford is makes you just as small-minded as the anti-gay bigots of old.

Gays can be of all races, sizes, faiths and interests. I hate sports but I don't give a shit about old movie divas. I enjoy listening to Bruno Mars and I love "Singin' in the Rain." I'm a hell of a cook and I hate superheroes and comic books. And I'm 50.

What difference does it make?

[quote]But to sit around with a group of pussy hounds watching the World Cup?

My partner is a gold-star gay, whereas I was married and have children. Thus, I watched a lot of soccer. I dragged him to bars to watch the World Cup.

He loved it and had a great time. We went to one game at a gay sports bar but there were very few people there. We had much more fun at the straight bars. Oh, and we say several gay men and lesbians we knew one of the bars. No one seemed to care.

We don't frequent them but they have their place.

[quote]And if you traveled in it as a self-identified gay man you'd understand that a gay man is going to have a rough or impossible time of it if he turns to straights for acceptance.

Do you honestly believe that? You amaze me.

OP WANTS EVERY GAYS TO PLAY DOLLS AND LISTEN TO DISCO MUSIC.

It makes no difference at all, R345, but there's this sad, inexplicable contingent of presumably older men who cling to this sitcom queen version of what it is to be gay. I don't know why the change seems to threatening or offensive to them (Cue the hymn The Sacrifices of My Noble Gay Brothers).

Oops - I'm r340 and r346. At r346 I said I was the OP by mistake.

Diversity in all things makes us stronger. Frankly, I like sports as well as music, art, decorating and good food.

r325,

[quote] My interests in sports has nothing to do with straight assimilation. If anything its the opposite.

But, it is. If you spend most of your time with straights, you're missing out on an important part of being gay, because unlike straight culture, gay culture isn't ubiquitous.

There is plenty of gay male culture that is masculine [italic]while at the same time[/italic] isn't misogynistic or homophobic. You said your parents met at a hardcore show, do you hang out with any queers?

[quote]I don't know why the change seems to threatening or offensive to them (Cue the hymn The Sacrifices of My Noble Gay Brothers).

Interesting. Movements go through generations. A lot of older African-Americans don't understand young people who have no clue what they struggled to achieve. It's always been that way.

[quote] I don't know why the change seems to threatening or offensive to them

Have you read this whole thread? They're are interesting cases made by both sides.

R341. What's the alternative? Should gay men live a lie and pretend to be something they are not just to get the approval of some closed minded assholes?

Almost all young people are totally ignorant about history...any history. Most of them have never even heard of JFK. Republicans don't like history.

Yes r346 - perhaps I didn't make myself clear. I do watch the World Cup. J'adore Le Foot (soccer) but not with a group of straight men. my gay friends and I usually watch at home or go to a sports bar together.

My concern is that some here seem to be saying they're more comfortable around straight men than gay men. Now, that is sad if true.

We do have a gay cultural history. I may not be familiar with all of it, but history is always a good thing to keep alive for any group.

r355,

Straight men hate the male gaze as much as women do.

[quote]Have you read this whole thread? They're are interesting cases made by both sides.

I have read the whole thread and I'm not convinced by both sides, at least the side that seems to demand - and the posts are there - that we stay locked away from the majority of the world and have to share the same view, particularly about what is loosely being called gay culture. I don't apologize for thinking an inability to discuss Joan Crawford's pictures is a failing or letting the side down. Those posts are there. It would be quaint if they weren't so obviously dogmatic about it.

R358. That doesn't answer the question. A simple yes or no is all that's needed.

[quote]I mean, men in their 40's and 50's going to sex parties, dancing shirtless in clubs, etc., etc. It's like they don't know how to age gracefully because they've never had a model of how to do that as a gay man.

Actually, when you think of it, this is a good example of how gay guys DO assimilate into straight culture. Most "swingers" who go to sex parties are straight, older guys with their usually unappealing wives.

Most straight swingers probably get laid more. They're more about horny than preening.

[quote]There is plenty of gay male culture that is masculine while at the same time isn't misogynistic or homophobic.

I would never hang out with someone who is misogynistic or homophobic. And I don't imagine people like that would be interested in hanging out with me.

[quote]do you hang out with any queers?

Yes.

[quote]I love sports. It has nothing to do with my sexual orientation. Stop trying to make things that are not related to sexual orientation into some fake "gay culture" or sexual orientation thing. That is why so many same-sex oriented men don't identify as gay/bi although they are open about their interest in dudes. Stop trying to make things that have nothing to do with one's attraction to the same-sex into "gay things" or gay culture

r338, sports might not have anything to do with your sexual orientation. But straight men mostly socialize about sports, therefore if you are gay and very into sports, you have assimilated to the straight man's culture, because sports a big part of what straight men socialize and fellowship around.

People assimilate to cultures all the time, there's nothing wrong with that. It's just that gay men have a lot of social barriers because of homophobia; way fewer opportunities to openly approach other men. It's easier to find you as potential mate if you aren't camouflaged in straight culture, and if you aren't one of those dudes that you speak of that don't ID as gay or bi. Some gay men are going to have a problem with you because you aren't signalling you're available, by doing what straight men typically do. It really all in the mechanics of mating.

[quote]Straight men hate the male gaze as much as women do.

I'm pretty certain Keith Hernandez was not aware of me gazing at him, seeing how he was on television and I was in my house.

"Straight men hate the male gaze as much as women do."

Poor straight men, forced to live under a dark cloud of sexual objectification, won't they ever be appreciated for their brains and not just their bodies?

[quote]Some gay men are going to have a problem with you because you aren't signalling you're available, by doing what straight men typically do.

If a gay man is going to judge me over something as silly as that, then good. They're right, I'm not available....for them.

R365. I have a feeling Keith Hernandez would not be too freaked out by a male gaze.

R358 wins the award for stupidest post ever on DL

WTF are you doing here?

It's kind of homophobic to dismiss and denigrate 'gay culture' as being all about drugs, dancing, sex, and divas. It's the sort of cliche peddled by right-wing conservatives. I spent my 20s in the queer punk scene of Sydney. It's absolutely possible to live outside of straight, mainstream culture (I find people who default to talking about sports crushingly dim and dull) without being a demeaning stereotype.

R368 I think you may be right. I met him years ago at a signing and he did kind of ping. I dont think he's ever been married, I don't recall him ever being connected to a woman. (Well aside from Elaine Benes lol)

[quote](I find people who default to talking about sports crushingly dim and dull)

No dismissal, denigration or cliche there...

You prove the point. We have a very difficult time truly tolerating, let alone respecting, that in this great gay 'community' there's a huge range of approaches to how you life your life.

r372, that's why I stated it as my opinion, not a fact. I'm sure sports-minded people find that sort of talk riveting. I don't. I don't think that makes me better than anyone.

[quote] It's kind of homophobic to dismiss and denigrate 'gay culture' as being all about drugs, dancing, sex, and divas.

No, but that’s internalized homophobia. It’s bad because straights say it’s bad. If straights did this widely, you would likely have a different opinion. Look, I’m not interested in that kind of thing, but I also don’t think it’s negative. It’s just different.

[quote] (I find people who default to talking about sports crushingly dim and dull)

[quote] You prove the point. We have a very difficult time truly tolerating, let alone respecting, that in this great gay 'community' there's a huge range of approaches to how you life your life.

Yes, but most people find sports talk dull. That’s why they’re building smart stadiums to get the bandwagoner cash. That’s how you make things inclusive. Make them communal.

[quote]No, but that’s internalized homophobia. It’s bad because straights say it’s bad.

Rubbish. That contention completely ignores there's lots about gay "culture" that's just plain fucking tedious.

I don't understand where some of you are getting this idea that young gay people are shying away from gay culture and desperately seeking to assimilate into straight culture. It's definitely not some widespread movement.

Well, r325,

I mean queer punk/DIY culture, if I wasn't specific enough. Just wondering since most punk fans don't really like sports either and I'm assuming you probably like punk yourself. I guess it would just help to know more about what your friends are like rather than just as people who like sports.

Anyway, from my own personal experience, being around my straight friends I sometimes have to bite my tongue on certain things.

It's unfair of me to necessarily think that your sports buddies are like this, but I wonder how you avoid those sorts of things with your friends if they come up?

R374 thinks gay men should tailor their lives to please straight people. R374 is the last person who should lecture us about internalized homophobia.

Yes, r375. I misread the post. I didn't see the 'all'. I still think the idea of this as denigration is homophobic. It implies that this is necessarily bad which I don't think is the case. Yet, I also understand how frustrating this may seem.

[quote] Should gay men live a lie and pretend to be something they are not just to get the approval of some closed minded assholes?

r355 - You're setting up a straw man and asking for a yes or no answer. No one should have to lie and pretend to be something they are not. And no approval is necessary. That doesn't mean we can't go out to straight bars if we want.

I don't like straight bars because they are expensive. We go to the gay bars and get very strong and relatively inexpensive drinks.

But our straight bars are more fun for World Cup. Super Bowl is good at the gay bars. But why would anyone dispute our right to go where we want? The straight bars don't seem to have a problem with my partner and me.

[quote]since most punk fans don't really like sports either and I'm assuming you probably like punk yourself.

I like both. There really is no problem for me because the two are totally unrelated. What I enjoy about one is totally different than what I like about the other. I'm not fanatical about sports to the point its all I think about.

[quote]I guess it would just help to know more about what your friends are like

They are all over the place. Some like sports. Some are eggheads. Some are geeks. Some are punks. I have two different text conversations going on now. One we are discussing the merits of Ted Hughes. The topic of the other conversation are patch downloads for video games.

[quote]I wonder how you avoid those sorts of things with your friends if they come up?

What sort of things do you mean?

Most people want to be mainstream and fit in. You don't have to feel that way, but it is okay that most people feel that way.

[quote] Most people want to be mainstream and fit in. You don't have to feel that way, but it is okay that most people feel that way.

No, it matters from a political perspective. It was once mainstream throughout America to hate gays. Was that okay?

Come on, if it were put to a national referendum gay marriage would be defeated. Only the courts interventions have worked in our favor in terms of gay marriage.

Sure, but you'll but in mainstream media you'll be hard pressed to find intentionally anti-gay material. Speaking out publicly for (or donating to) anti-gay organizations leads, to at the very least, public shaming. Even the GOP has given up on gay marriage going away, it's just the fringe that's left.

Even if they still hate us, we have the political power to make them be quiet about it. That's a lot more than most groups.

I think you're a bit delusional.

R384, gay marriage isn't even an issue with millennials. Once the GOP realized that it was essentially impossible to attract younger people with that platform, they dropped it.

Stop celebrating your ignorance, r14.

R68 nails it . Im old ..55..ish and things like gay guys hanging out at sports bars gives me a feeling of "finally". I am very glad for he straight friend I have who never make me feel out of place any where we go. There are a couple of guys who have even seen touring musicals with me and did other " gay" shit just because they like my company. That's just what having friends is about.

Zach...Jones ...Brandon ...you guys rock.

[quote] I don't apologize for thinking an inability to discuss Joan Crawford's pictures is a failing or letting the side down. Those posts are there. It would be quaint if they weren't so obviously dogmatic about it.

Well, I think the thing is that something definitely is lost. The thing about “divas” like Crawford, Bankhead, and Davis is that they were not just strong women, they were strong individuals . They didn’t make excuses for themselves. They also didn’t take themselves too seriously. They were camp. They defied the expectations of what women were way before feminism became mainstream. It isn’t so much the movies that matter as the sentiment. They made things seem possible in a way that’s lacking today.

As a young gay man, I haven’t seen how that’s translated... I mean I haven’t seen a modern day version of them. The divas of today are pop manufacturings. I consider this a loss not just for gays but for the cultural left in general. In a bizarre way, it feels as if everything’s been made safe somehow. And, that’s fine, but where are the alternatives?

I mean what I’m saying is they were really imaginative. Which is odd since everything seemed so stilted back then, at first glance anyway. But, those movies are really hopeful. They lack the cynicism that permeates culture today. I think that’s really useful.

The GOP hasn't dropped anything. If you think this battle is over you're delusional. You're dealing with religious beliefs.

[quote] The GOP hasn't dropped anything. If you think this battle is over you're delusional. You're dealing with religious beliefs.

There's a recording of a speech that Karl Rove gave a year or two ago from the Aspen Ideas Festival.

He was basically like the GOP may have gotten short term gains by hooking up with religious fanatics, but it was now fucking them over and they (moderate republicans) had no idea how they were going to get rid of the tea party.

Rove's reputation as a political seer was destroyed when he made a complete fool of himself on the air for the world to see on election night 2012.

The activists who are actually fighting the battle are smart enough to know that it isn't over and it likely won't be over in our lifetimes.

If your talking about gay marriage, yes, it is.

If you're talking about ENDA and other issues of systemic discrimination that affect more greatly the day to day lives of a wider class of LGBT, then, no, absolutely not.

[quote]If a gay man is going to judge me over something as silly as that, then good. They're right, I'm not available....for them.

r367, if your love of sports is greater than your desire to socialize with other gay men, then it's no gay man's loss anyway. Especially if you even refuse to identify yourself as gay.

Are the sports bars showing Olympic figure skating reruns now?

???

R395, bisexual and gay men are often with r368 when he is watching sports and "vibing" with their straight bros. He doesn't have to be in a stereotypical or designated "gay" space to socialize with bisexual of gay dudes.

The younger gays who deride or assume a patronizing attitude towards the older gays are oblivious that they owe their superior gayness to what they affect to look down upon.

What we are seeing is the me! me! me! I'm-all-right-Jack attitude of post-Reagan gays who like the rest of the country have become normative, conservative and have moved far to the right.

[quote]if your love of sports is greater than your desire to socialize with other gay men, then it's no gay man's loss anyway.

I didnt say my love of sports is greater than that. I said men who are going to judge me without getting to know me is not attractive.

[quote]Especially if you even refuse to identify yourself as gay.

I never said that as well. In fact if you read my posts I make it clear I identify as a gay man.

Try reading the words that are there, not the words you imagine are there.

Right-wing gays of all ages are probably why there hasn't been even more progress. They're the Uncle Toms of the gay rights movement.

Then you have the rebel gays who can't understand why other gays want the right to marry and think that simply wanting the right means that you're selling out in order to be seen as acceptable to heterosexuals.

This thread expands on that issue. You shouldn't have to have your straight friends and your gay friends, but at the end of the day maybe that's just how it has to be. You might be willing to hang out in a typical bar or club with your straight pals, but it is incredibly rare to have straight male friends willing to go to a gay bar or club and not feel like their comfort is being threatened.

[quote]Well, I think the thing is that something definitely is lost. The thing about “divas” like Crawford, Bankhead, and Davis is that they were not just strong women, they were strong individuals . They didn’t make excuses for themselves. They also didn’t take themselves too seriously. They were camp. They defied the expectations of what women were way before feminism became mainstream. It isn’t so much the movies that matter as the sentiment. They made things seem possible in a way that’s lacking today.

Agreed. But they're all dead, and the stars of today's chick flicks don't even deserve to be mentioned in the same sentence with these women.

Just for the record, it is possible to multitask. This year, we have gone to the NCAA Basketball finals, watched the World Cup mostly in straight bars, been to local theater about five times this year, once to the opera and we go out with our friends to the gay bars around once a week.

WW R395 for Wizzzzzzzzzzzdommmmmmmmmmmmm. Post of the Day.

Who are "we," R403?

R404 Except for the fact that everything R395 wrote was a lie, then sure. That qualifies for the "post of the day." Keep telling yourself that.

[quote]gay marriage isn't even an issue with millennials. Once the GOP realized that it was essentially impossible to attract younger people with that platform, they dropped it.

Opposition to gay marriage was included in the Republican platform of 2012 and it will be again in 2016.

For r403

Multitasking: Multitasking, in a human context, is the practice of doing multiple things simultaneously.

This is the "Post of the Day" part, R406. How can it be "untrue"? It's a truism.

[quote]if your love of sports is greater than your desire to socialize with other gay men, then it's no gay man's loss anyway.

Spin this, R407:

R409 The person he addressed it to never said those things. In fact, no one here has said anything close to that.

What's wrong with brahs just being brahs?

[quote]What's wrong with brahs just wearing bras?

Fixed.

Is that you, Bruce?

What's there to spin, R410? That governor is still opposed to gay marriage, he's just saying he will comply with the law -- you know, like he took an oath to do.

[quote] Right-wing gays of all ages are probably why there hasn't been even more progress. They're the Uncle Toms of the gay rights movement.

I resssssssssent that comment!

There is no such thing as a "brah."

R325,

[quote] I like both. There really is no problem for me because the two are totally unrelated. What I enjoy about one is totally different than what I like about the other. I'm not fanatical about sports to the point its all I think about.

I see. This makes sense, I suppose you were just using sports as your most extreme example of male stereotype hobby for effect. Though, really you just hang around or talk to friends in all of your hobbies. Maybe a more appropriate word would be “activity partner” although that sounds childish. I mean for example. I like video games, but I wouldn’t call myself a gamer because I’m casual about it.

[quote] I wonder how you avoid those sorts of things with your friends if they come up?

[quote] What sort of things do you mean?

Well, I mean, for example, if something homophobic gets said or is a topic of discussion. When do you decide to address it? I think that’s what many posters are curious about. Even without trying, straights can sayings they might not be aware of.

Straights? wassup with the need to label everyone and confine them. if you have that type of attitude and fixation, you will find it difficult to bond with mainstream males.

[quote] to bond with mainstream males.

My life's ambition!

Seriously, you do know even most "mainstream males" don't concern themselves with this.

why the long face, bro?

f

Assimilation is the goal of most

.

Those young gay guys need to take some classes in how to act gay.

I am so lucky. I "assimilated" as a teen- all my friends were "straight" but awesome. And this was the 90s, in a small Southern city.

I've never liked the gay ghetto. Even today, my partner and I rarely hang out with other gays.

Like the gay people who supported and donated to Memories Pizza?

guess who's coming to dinner - syndey poitier's character to his dad, "You see yourself as a black man; I see myself as a man."

R427-

Some of us choose to support those brave people who are defending our freedom to discriminate- including gay on straight discrimination - than just endorse government mandated discrimination.

This dumb thread has 22 pages?

Trust a freeper to resurrect the dead!

Perhaps that's one of the problems with what is called "gay culture" in that it tries to define your actions, thoughts and preferences as if they were the product of your sexual orientation in some sort of attempt to find homogeneity among homosexual people.

But, the truth is that sexual orientation doesn't dictate if you will like diva pop music over rock music or interior decoration over rugby. The fact is that homosexual men and women have always actively participated in activities arbitrarily defined as "straight" because they simply like them and enjoy them; nothing about your sexual orientation determines your actions, thoughts and preferenecs except your attraction to the same sex.

I'm fucking glad I am gay JUST SO I can enjoy and talk about "Mildred Pierce" and "Johnny Guitar"! I'm serious. It's worth it!

The idea that being gay means to have to like or enjoy certain things is utter rubbish. Liking Broadway musicals or old movies has nothing to do with being gay or straight. It just is!! Just because so many gays of old have taken to these things and have "made them gay" doesn't actually make those activities GAY

Gay is something we do, not who we are. Read r431 and r433 again.

And what we do can be fabulous.

I hate it when effeminate or campy gays try to portray their particular mannerisms, interests, lifestyle as definition of gay identity and culture. No, you like that stuff; most men who are attracted to males do not. Moreover, don't try to undermine other gay men's masculinity or mainstream interests just because they are different than you are. I see far too many effeminate gay men trying to question gay and bisexual men who are masculine and don't display stereotypical traits.

Unless we see and hear you on video, R435, I'm calling YOU bullshit.

l;l;l;

So many gays are so internally homophobic and don't even realize. Fems and Mascs alike, it's all a fucking mess... after dealing with so homophobia from straights for eons, we adopted the mentality within our community as opposed to growing from it SMH

we are products of the same world everyone else grows up and lives in. why would you expect any different?

People are rejecting the notion that being bisexual or gay means something more than the gender(s) to which you are attracted. It has nothing to do with your interests in music, entertainment, movies, sports, fashion, or language. Stop trying to make it into a culture.

Masculinity is great

Difficult to be "masculine" with a cock in your mouth.

Good for them. Maybe their journey in life will be that much more peaceful.

I think SOME effeminate guys are jealous of the mainstream masculine bisexual and gay males that fit in with their peers and are not stereotypical. For some reason, it makes them feel even more isolated and freakish. It's the crab in the barrel mentality. They don't want to see some gay/bi men assimilating.

I think it's sad that any gay person could talk about notions of "masculinity" and "femininity" with a straight face. Haven't they learned anything from their experience?

Few people want to be abnormal or subculture. Most want to be mainstream and normal

Come gather ’round people

Wherever you roam

And admit that the waters

Around you have grown

And accept it that soon

You’ll be drenched to the bone

If your time to you is worth savin’

Then you better start swimmin’ or you’ll sink like a stone

For the times they are a-changin’

I applaud it

I am excited about the rise of masc4mac dudebros who dispel all the old stereotypes of bi and gay men as effeminate weirdos.

r449 It's funny how they turn into the biggest, most effeminate queens in bed though, isn't it? :(

[quote]I am excited about the rise of masc4mac dudebros who dispel all the old stereotypes of bi and gay men as effeminate weirdos.

A rose by any other name...

The emphasis on brahs, dudebros, et al. is merely a different form of drag, just like the hyper-masculine look of Tom of Finland images or leather are.

You are utterly mistaken to think it's any more assimilated or heteronomative.

As Noxeema said, it just makes you a boy in a dress...

Younger sisters today are more interested in drugs than in Joan Crawford, Mary OP.

If you can't beat them, join them. With the demise of gay bars and nightclubs and every other gay meeting place I can think of, what is left but to befriend straight people. I guess it beats a life of solitude.

90% of sisters marry fish, sooner or later - but still enjoy pinga discretely when the urge is strong.

This might have something to do with all the DL originals whining whenever anyone tries to start a thread that's quirky, complaining about how much this place sucks now, how anyone who likes classic movies or is interested in history and symbolism is automatically a crazy frau and how anyone who isn't educated about past inside jokes, is an impostor and doesn't belong here.

I love the progress

Gays still live in a predominantly straight society and need to socialize with straight people. Times have changed. Sodomy isn't illegal. Gays get same-sex married and have kids now. Gays play sports and join fraternities. Straight men watch drag shows now.

Why would anyone not want to assimilate and be integrated into the mainstream?

Because it's cool to be gay! In my mind, at least, we're much better than straight people.

[quote]Why would anyone not want to assimilate and be integrated into the mainstream?

"Mainstream?" Someone on DL defined that recently as having a wife and fucking guys in restrooms. Yeah, that's what I want from life.

R459, your definition of what it means to be “gay” is probably itself a very stifling stereotypical (archaic) view that excludes a lot of regular same-sex oriented people who are not like that.

r461, I'm not r459, but I'm sure I wouldn't miss your so-called "same-sex oriented people who are not like that" if you were to be excluded.

At least r461 said 'oriented,' not 'orientated.'