- Bless yo my child!
Beecroft's penis bulge
- I know I'm mixing my shows, but good Lord, I wanted to be the meat in a Beecroft sandwich.
- Did this eventually become known as Company?
- Give it a rest, OP soap freak ....
- Here's an incredibly hilarious scene with Elizabeth Hubbard and Scott Bryce where Lucinda moves in to seduce Craig in the barn, who basically succumbs to her like a lamb to the slaughter - Lucinda's evil laughter of orgasmic triumph is only heightened by the sexy jazz version of the 80s ATWT theme. Start the video at 4:50 and witness the sheer MAGIC!
- Answer me this - why would ATWT stop using a theme tune as famous in its day as the one from GWTW?
- Let's use this thread for all things P&G...
- EON and SFT as well,no?
- I did love Greg Beecroft and his tight pants. So sexy.
- Oh, come on, r6...
Simply the Best
- Let's talk about Larry Haines's bulge.
- I loved that theme, R10.
- That cast list is insane. How in the hell can a writer manage a soap with 50 characters?
- Gossip as exposition, R13. Marland used around 30 characters per episode.
- I wish Eileen Fulton would be given an Honorary Emmy. Shall we start a petition?
- Lisa was hilarious when Bob's affair was exposed, sticking her nose in their business.
- Addendum to R14: Some of the 30+ actors Marland used each day were part of the day's storylines. The rest sat in Mona Lisa gossiping about everyone who wasn't on the show that day.
I miss those gossip scenes. Who even bothers with exposition anymore?
- I'd always get upset when Bea would make Tony put a shirt on before he sat at the dining table.
- Not only was it an insane cast list but Marland gave everybody something to do.
- Lucinda and Lisa were the perfect rivals. I loved how Lisa called her 'Lucy', almost as if she knew about her roots as Mary Ellen Walters living in poverty in Chicago.
- "I'm gonna flatten you." Only Kim would put it that way. One of the greatest things about Marland was that his characters all had such distinctive personalities and ways of speaking. Only Kim said "golly" and "kiddo." Only Lucinda said "darling" and "Pussycat." Only Tonio put his stocking feet up on the furniture and wiggled his toes as he made deals on the phone. Only Craig said "I love you" to every woman in town, and made you believe it.
A Thousand "Mary!"s Upon Me
- r21 - and only Lisa would go up on a line and get away with it!
- R10 and R13,
It is sad how many in the cast are dead. Particularly the ones who did not become senior citizens. Michael David Morrison, who played Caleb, died 20 years ago. (He and Doug Marland both died in 1993.)
- Who cares about these old characters. Just give me a square-jawed hunk with a smooth torso and 8-pack abs, and I'm set. I don't need anything more from my soaps. I can't believe you bitches actually watch for the storylines.
- "Michael David Morrison, who played Caleb, died 20 years ago."
And Michael Louden (Duke) died about ten years ago. Auto-erotic hanging. One of the most underrated performers in daytime, IMO.
- I wanna see Tonio's feets.
- r25, you have got to be kidding. Please tell me that's not so.
- Michael David Morrison looked so much like my first boyfriend, it spooked me for a moment when I read he'd died.
- Marland's show was too busy for my taste. For instance you would have one scene at the hospital with Bob and John, the camera would pan over to Kim and Susan in another corner of the same set talking, they would walk off and the camera would pan to another character group talking on the same set. Then there was all of the recap. And that damned farm. I hate that farm. Emma must have been running drugs out of that damned farm.
- Lisa was always flubbing her lines as did Helen Wagner. Still loved them both.
- I loved Marland's regime. Something happened every day. And all that eavesdropping... it was almost a joke how many people were listening at doors.
- The Reardons and the Snyders were both Marland creations. He always wanted have-nots on his shows.
- Doug Marland's real name was Snyder. I thought it was so charming that he recreated his childhood with that family. Although I'm not sure if he had a hunky farmhand brother named Holden who showed him the ropes....
- I liked the Reardon's better than the Snyders, but there was nothing hotter than farm boy Holden.
- and yet the Snyders had a real HOME. The great irony of Lily being the daughter of a rich woman like Lucinda is that Lily felt suffocated in the mansion and couldn't stand to be there. Only at the packed Snyder farm where there was always boisterous activity in the kitchen did Lily feel in sync. Oh and the fact that Holden was around the place didn't hurt. I don't know why Lucinda wasn't glad to be rid of the little brat!
- Why did they never pair Lily with Andy Dixon? They were both obnoxious, impudent little shits.
- r27, I'm afraid it's true. It even says the cause of death on his Wiki page. He was so loved. Read the touching tributes at this link:
- [quote] Michael Louden (Duke) died about ten years ago. Auto-erotic hanging.
I don't believe I had heard that. Sad!
- I will never understand why they threw poor Dusty under the bus.
- I always chuckled when characters would stop by the hospital during their lunch break to tell another character something that they could just as well do over the phone. Like "stopping by" a hospital to see your friend the nurse was as easy as pulling up to a 7-11.
- Brian Bloom was cute but Dusty back then was just not all that interesting.
- Because Andy was "artistic" and needed girls who were more bohemian and/or trashy, r36. And for God knows what reason, TPTB thought Lily ALWAYS needed to be with a "hunk."
- Meg #1 (Jennifer Ashe) suited Marland's needs perfectly. She was such a gossipy little bitch. Meg #2 was unrecognizable. I refuse to name the actress.
- "And for God knows what reason, TPTB thought Lily ALWAYS needed to be with a "hunk."
It was all to appeal to the fantasies of their mostly frau audience who identified with Lily. If a plan jane like Lily could land a stud like Holden, then there was still hope for them.
- But at least it seemed like a real workplace, r42. Lots of people eating and pouring coffee and rushing around. You don't see that at all on soaps today. "Work" these days is two people standing in an office talking about everything *except* work. Or having sex on the desk.
- Brian Bloom freaked me out with his icy blue Rasputin eyes. He would have been a superb choice for Doug Cummings, had he been a little older. Something so sinister about those eyes. Handsome, but sinister.
- Oops, I meant to answer r40.
- R29 R35 Don't forget the Snyder eavesdropping porch. I loved the entire Marland schtick, btw.
- I still hate that when Dusty came back as an adult, they basically made him Sonny Corinthos (GH) of Oakdale.
And R43, I agree, Ashe could act circles around the wet fart that was Meg #2.
- r40, if characters didn't drop by and talk instead of conduct everything on the phone, there would be no show that day to enjoy. The real world has broken up communities and now people do live isolated from each other in their towns and cities. The soap world still offers the illusion of the communal tribe, making it one of the most primal and emotional artforms.
- Was Meg supposed to be like Marland's Nola on GL?
- R36 R42 Don't you be messin' with my Andy Dixon. He's my favorite soap character of all time. The worst thing MADD and FMB did was fail to bring him back.
- Didn't Meg have an enormous print of Marilyn Monroe above her bed? It was the same Niagra studio shot that Andy Warhol used for his 'Marilyn'. I thought that was a nice touch and it must have come from Marland, right?
- HEY!!! Back to the original question.
Yes Op, I stayed at the Reardon Boarding House back in 1990.Nola was always swiping my chapstick.
- r52 - of all time?! That must be a first. Why ANDY?! I am genuinely intrigued by that statement!
- It shocks me when some posters here say that Scott DeFreitas was a bad actor, r52. I think he played the most complex teen soap character ever. Were we watching the same show?
- How far apart were Oakdale and Springfield supposed to be?
- Isn't Andy the one they tried to recast with a hunkier actor and the fans found out and protested, so MADD and FMB said fuck 'em and never brought the character back?
- He was the most wonderful person in Oakdale, R55. He tied so many things together, especially the Aaron storyline. He was terrific in his scenes with Dr. John, his father; together, they wrung so much humor out of the Little Miss Seattle situation. And his scenes with Courtney and with Julie were equally believable.
And Scott DeFreitas was so cute.
And then it all got ruined when Andy started carrying Mike Kasnoff's picture around in his wallet. What might have made a nice story of unrequited love was destroyed by Carly. One of the great ironies is that Scott married the actress who played the character who destroyed his character.
I stopped watching shortly after Carly came to town. Marland might have gotten her right. Instead, the failures who replaced him gave her the show, which was henceforth known as As the World Turns around Carly Tenney.
- Maura West was one of the most incredible stars in soap opera history. True, unadulterated glamor. Was Carly the last character Marland created, left behind in his outlines? He intended for her to be the 90s Lisa?
- I think the last Marland character was Damian.
- On screen, that's true r62. But Marland's bible had story projections all the way up to 1995, or so I've read.
- Remember when Maura had the Jean Seberg haircut in the late 90s? Totally gorgeous!
- R61 You must be blind and deaf to have bought her act. She's nothing but third-rate Janet Leigh.
- Janet Leigh? What an absurdity. She was more in line with Harlow and Monroe. You must be jealous of her.
- I hated ATWT. Nothing ever happened. Every episode was nothing more exposition, and it didn't help that the characters were deathly dull. Very flyover-ish, the type we usually detest her. Give me the ABC soaps in their heyday any time. OTT situations with colorful characters who would be out of place in Podunkaville.
- Well, aren't YOU oh, so perceptive of the obvious, R66? She ruins the show AND walks off with my favorite actor. OF COURSE I'M JEALOUS.
- r47, the ABC and NBC soaps were cartoons. CBS was for the literate minded.
- Loved all the gatherings at the Hughes house too. It must have been a LOT of work to get the logistics right to always have so many characters appearing in one setting in so many episodes as Marland did.
- Oh, and another thing, R66: I see you're the one who went to bat in R6 for the theme that played when my grandmother watched ATWT.
It's not often I get to play this card, but here goes: You, R66 et al a la trolldar, sound old.
- [quote] Isn't Andy the one they tried to recast with a hunkier actor and the fans found out and protested, so MADD and FMB said fuck 'em and never brought the character back?
No, I think that was Andrew Kavovit who played Paul Ryan. Andrew K was a decent actor but he was a little odd looking.
They eventually brought Paul back many years later, first as a male model type (fail), then as Scott Holroyd (a cute actor, decent) and then finally with Roger Howarth playing Paul.
- ATWT must have been a nice place to work under Marland's tenure because it all seemed a bit like a family gathering and perhaps if off screen you were a bit isolated, you would truly feel part of something on screen.
- r71 - LOL! Get him!!!
- r71, why aren't you thankful that Scott ended up with somebody of Maura's calibre? Not only is she a magnificent actress, she's also exquisitely feminine. It's not like your precious Andy ended up with a harridan.
- R69, do you mean the P&G (rather than the CBS) soaps were for the literate-minded? I mean, Y&R and B&B "literate"? And Harding Lemay wrote AW.
Of course, you did like Carly Tenney, so who knows?
R73, he kept the actors' photos at his desk. I thought that was a nice touch.
- R75, I wouldn't wish Maura West on...you.
- Perhaps the true destiny of every homosexual is to create his family through art. Douglas Marland was indeed a family man and a father, and his children were the residents of Oakdale.
- Mary Kay Adams and Terry Lester were so lovable on ATWT.
- So Doug had a foot fetish for the hot male family members. Nice.
- R69 The CBS soaps weren't exactly Shakespeare either. Especially the Bell soaps. Those two soaps are absolute snoozefest of the highest order. On the other hand, the P & G soaps had a much warmer feeling. The direction didn't seem as distant. One also got the feeling that the families(as a previous poster had said) also got along off screen especially in the case of ATWT.
Yes the ABC and NBC soaps could be totally camp or mired in horror and sci-fi tropes(Days, Passions, GH are the obvious examples. Not to mention OLTL during the Eterna saga)but that was part of their allure.
Maura West is still one beautiful woman. She might not be Meryl Streep but she's quite good in this genre.She's been doing a star turn in GH lately which is saying a lot with all the campy and silly scripting there.
- R80 Who were exactly Doug's foot fetish conquests? I remember reading that Holden was one of them.......
- I'm so sorry about Michael's death. He's been gone for 9 years and I never once asked myself what became of him. It shows that the characters become more real to us than the actors. You just assume they're living off screen. My day is going to be affected because of this.
- r76, what do you mean I "liked" Carly Tenney? I found her materialistic and mercurial actually although for what the character was, she absolutely WORKED. The one I admire is Maura West. For her sophisticated and womanly qualities, I find her rather captivating.
- I thought Bill Bell's Y&R was excellent. It did drag but it was ornate and lush and aesthetic and fascinating.
- r85, the excellent production values obsured the fact that Y&R was a pretentious piece of garbage. He used every cliche in the book, and his dialogue writers were the joke of the industry.
- r86 - OMG!!! That's a bit strong isn't it? You can't deny the power of his characters. Lorie Brooks, Nikki Reed, Kay Chancellor, Sheila Carter?
- In her memoir, Jeanne Cooper basically admits she was ready to walk and ditch Y&R when Doug Marland said he's write her a role on ATWT. Do you think Bill would have reacted badly to losing her to a competitor?
- I find it hard to believe that Jeanne would've moved to NYC just to work with Marland.
- I don't doubt that Cooper and Marland had a conversation; he LOVED actors.
After Rex died circa 93/94, Kay wasn't doing much; if she were ever going to leave that would be the time.
But was there really room for Cooper in Oakdale when Marland had Hubbard, Hays, Zenk, and so many others?
- I read in the other thread that Marland was going to bring Jeanne on to play in black and white flashbacks as Gloria, Lucinda's sadistic mother in 1930s Chicago. Liz Hubbard ended up playing the role herself but it would have been something to see Hubbard v Cooper, right?
- r89, it wasn't just for that. Jeanne wanted to go back to the theater too. Here's the interview where she discusses it. She met Marland through Terry Lester:
- Cooper was an an old hambone. Can't see her "acting" style meshing with the more naturalistic perfomers on ATWT in the early 90s. You might as well have had Brenda Dickson join ATWT as the new Iva Snyder. Can you imagine Dickson trying to act in a scene with Kathleen Widdows LOL.
- Brenda Dickson would have been hilarious as Neal Alcott. She and Terry DID make a good team on Y&R, you can't deny that.
- r93, you don't think Jeanne and Liz Hubbard would have gone at their scenes like two randy bulldogs?
- Marland did good work on The Doctors and GH, but his ATWT was just too much. Hogan Sheffer's first few years on ATWT were amazing. Hunt Block and Maura West tore it down.
- Why would Jeanne wanted to have left the role of Kay? She did so much:
1970s: "Jill, you bitch, you stole Phillip from me! I will never forgive you!"
1980s: "Jill, you bitch, you stole Phillip from me! I will never forgive you!"
1990s: "Jill, you bitch, you stole Phillip from me! I will never forgive you!"
2000s: "Jill, you bitch, you're my daughter and you stole Phillip from me! I will never forgive you!"
2010s: "Jill, you bitch, you're not my daughter and you stole Phillip from me! I will never forgive you!"
- The thing about Marland and feet is a total concoction of fantasy. Jon Hensley looked to Marland like a father figure. It was a real father-son relationship.
- r96, Maura is so dynamic in this scene. I just can't take my eyes off her. There's a radiance and a spunk there. Hunt tends to overact a bit though.
- Maura West could have been a major movie star if A) she'd been born in the early 1900s or B) the studio system still existed.
She is AMAZING.
- there are days when I love Maura; others, the snarling of her lines (every line) is a bit much.
Then again, I think Slezak is amazing and I can not simply hear one more 'can not' and 'did not' from her.
I simply can not.
- Thanks R99. Hunt Block was sex on a fucking stick and that scene was great. He was the best Craig in my opinion. And Hogan really got off on writing for Barbara.
- r68, enjoy your cold empty bed tonight knowing your precious Andy rests in the arms of the GODDESS!
- In terms of Bill Bell missing Jeanne...Bill probably would have recast like he did with Jack, Jill and Ashley. They weren't like the originals but the replacements found their own audiences. Jeanne would have been a hoot playing opposite Lucinda.Or even her mom.
Speaking of Lucinda, she was always the personification of a MILF on soaps. There was something so sexy about her.A hot older woman like a Mrs Robinson. She also had a cunty vibe to boot!
Elizabeth Hubbard ended up doing a Dutch soap after ATWT ended. She even ended up doing a tiny bit of Dutch mixed in with her English.
Maura is a veritable rose upon a dung heap on her current show. Once again she is no master thespian but she can chew the scenery with the best of them.
- Anyone remember the weekly newsletter Soap Opera Now? It would come in the mail on Saturdays typically. Before the internet, it was THE place to get good soap dirt and gossip.
- "Speaking of Lucinda, she was always the personification of a MILF on soaps. There was something so sexy about her.A hot older woman like a Mrs Robinson."
Only a gay man would think this. Straight guys wouldn't see Lucinda as a MILF or cougar? At best, Liz Hubbard is a handsome woman, but she hardly gives off a sexual vibe that would attract younger straight guys. Erica Kane, Lucy Cole, Lindsey Rappaport, Brooke Logan...these are MILFs/cougars.
- I just don't understand why Maura agents didn't send her out for pilots or guest spots.
- R106 I would disagree with you on Lucy Coe, she's the type of MILF gay gays love. I don't think her fabulousness is appreciated by straight guys.Brooke Logan is starting to make Joan Rivers look natural so she might not be a MILF anymore but a scary botox/plastic surgery victim.
- I meant: gay guys love.
- Carly and Mike were new post-Marland characters to give Rosanna something to play with after they wrote out the Marland characters of Linc, Hutch, Debbie, Evan, et al.
I loved Marland's WT from start to finish. But I, like a lot of other gay kids at the time, really connected with Andy and expected them to reveal he was gay. But beyond that he was a very central character that the later people in charge never understood
I also love Maura West. How could you not?
- The primary element of Lucinda Walsh is her sexual appetite. It is absolutely essential to her character. Of COURSE she is a MILF. She EXUDES it at any age. I am fiercely proud of Elizabeth Hubbard. Who WOULDN'T fuck Lucinda? She's an amazing person. Her charisma is legendary.
- Another clip of Lucinda's erotic fetish for Craig. This one is charged with sexual tension and bizarre aggression. "I love ya. I told you I love ya. Now get out."
- r112, again, you're viewing her through the lens of a gay man. Hubbard is very mannish looking. A straight guy's definition of a MILF is a chick with nice tits and a smoking body. Witty repartee does not factor into the definition.
- I agree Liz was sexy
- Sexy is a subjective term, but no young straight guy would want to hit that.
- As the World Turns and All My Children were both absolutely great from about 86-90. They were different, but Marland and Nixon knew how to write soaps and really make the fictional towns feel real. I quit really watching soaps after college, but the heyday of ATWT with the Douglas Cummings mystery, Frannie/Sabrina, Lucinda/John, Barbara/Tom/Margo, Lily/Holden, etc. and AMC with the Natalie/Palmer/Ross/Ellen stuff and all the rest of the Corltnadt Manor stories, Adam/Brooke/Tad/Dixie, Erica/Travis...awesome stuff. ATWT went downhill in the 90s, but AMC was better than ever in the early 90s until about 97 when it declined, too.
- Elizabeth Hubbard should re-activate the role of Dina Abbott Mergeron to fill the void left by Kay Chancellor.
- [quote] Marland did good work on The Doctors and GH, but his ATWT was just too much
Marland's ATWT was the BEST soap in its time, and the second best run of any soap except for Lemay's AW.
- Marland was a protege of LeMay's while Lemay wrote AW.
- Marland was able to write fun mysteries, humor, melodrama and at the same time, keep the show to its roots. He knew the Hughes family was the core and its a shame how many other writers didn't.
- R106 R114 R116 Are you a "young straight guy" who has sex with men or with women? (You have to ask around here these days.)
- Here is the slightly wistful and utopian montage for ATWT during its 2001 Emmy year. It was a time of great hope and optimism for World Turns. Of course that fateful year changed the American landscape in a lot of ways.
Here was the last bloom of renewed innocence and vitality for what was once an American institution.
- If Y&R were smart, they would reveal that Katherine left Chancellor Industries to Lucinda Walsh and have Liz walk into her will reading (also getting the mansion).
Meanwhile, B&B would have Carly Tenney get hired at Forrester Creations and find out that Barbara Ryan is working for Spectra. Wait, does Spectra still function?! LOL
- I had a straight roommate in the late 80s/early 90s and he was so ashamed to admit he watched WT, too.
But once he did, he told me he had a fantasy of banging Lucinda and Sierra at the same time.
So at least one straight man I know was into the MILF-y Lucinda. There IS a lid for every pot.
- Great idea R124 but unfortunately ATWT (and GL) are owned by Procter and Gamble, who would never do something as smart and sensible as licensing a character.
P&G would fuck up a one car funeral.
- r124, from a purely demo/economical model, they're not going to hire some 70-something actress from a show that's been off for years and that basically appealed to the nursing home crowd.
- Get Susan Flannery, Robin Strasser, Liz Hubbard and Vicky Wyndham in a scene. Heaven!
- r127, La Hubbard's boyfriend is in his thirties. She's VERY popular with the kids. Aside from her obvious sex appeal (and yes, straight men find her devastatingly attractive), she is in a very special league with Marlene Dietrich, Miranda Richardson and Kristin Scott Thomas - that strange but intoxicating mixture of ice queen and sex queen.
- Can we come too, r128.
Linda Dano, Viki Sleestak, Jane Elliot, Dee-Dee Halls, Kim Zimmer
- John McCook and Colleen Zenk would be fabulous as Eric and Barbara.
- "Devastatingly attractive?" Surely that was a joke post, r129. If not, you're posting from 1984, and even then...
- Douglas Marland's storylines were primarily generated by a mystical psychic ability. Him and Agnes Nixon both had a fondness for the occult I believe.
[quote]In an uncanny, and very personal, anecdote, Eileen Fulton recalled how, in the autumn of '79, character and actress somehow, briefly, seemed to start living eerily parallel lives.
"I remember the Bennett Hadley story, and [Lisa] wanting to marry him," Eileen confided, "Doug Marland was writing the script [later on] and it was very strange."
And how! She continued:
"I did not know Doug Marland at that time. He came on when I was supposed to go away with my real-husband, Fortunato--Husband 2. But I had decided I was going to leave him. So I changed my name to 'Ruth Stern.' My brother Jimmy went as my brother, 'Hilary Stern.' We had to go to a hotel in New York City because I had to meet with March of Dimes and UNICEF. I talked to the manager of the Hilton Hotel and said, 'I'm really Margaret Forunato, this is my card, but I don't want to talk to anyone here, so put me on the registry as Ruth and Hilary Stern.' Because I was hiding from my husband.
"So after we got through with the meeting, my brother and I got in his car and went up to Lake Minneawska. We got lost in a terrible storm, with rain and fog, and we finally got up to the hotel, and it was not as we remembered. I had taken him there as a little boy. It was old and dilapidated and a shutter was banging. For two weeks we were around there, then we went up to Lake Mohawk. I hid out as Ruth Stern. Danny could not find us, no one could. When I came back we were staying at a hotel here in town, still as Ruth and Hillary, and I got my script that I had to go on location to Ringwood, New Jersey."
As she told the tale, it became clear from her enthusiasm that Eileen still marvels at what awaited her back on the set. It was a clear case of art imitating life.
"When I got to Ringwood, and my brother went with me, Lisa had changed her name. Lisa was running away from Grant Colman. Lisa got stuck in a terrible storm with fog and lightning and rain that was blinding. She finally comes upon this old mansion and when she gets there the shutter was banging. My brother said, 'If you had told me I would have never believed it. It was too spooky for words!' And then I met Doug Marland. No one knew this about me because I told no one. I think that's one of the strangest things that ever happened to me."
- r132, I don't think you like older women with sex lives do you r132? Is it a gay thing? I myself am a homosexual male and I find myself cheering every time Elizabeth Hubbard is onscreen. I just think she is an ideal we should all strive for, across gender lines. She symbolizes emancipation to me.
- I can totally hear Eileen Fulton relating that story at R133.
- Lucinda was great. The day when Iva slips and reveals the truth to Lily and Lucinda, furious, says to Iva, "Why did you tell her? Why? WHY?" She was ferocious.
Even years later when the show was a slip of otself (and nobody had living rooms anymore), the scene when Simon drove through the front wall of her home was masterful in the way that Lucinda laughed and mocked him, clapping her hands and saying, "Bravo!" instead of the usual scream and run.
- Brilliant idea r118, I can totally see Liz Hubbard as Jack, Tracy, and Ashley's mom!
- Or how about Liz Hubbard as Brooke's mother Beth Logan?
- Beth Logan is a church mouse
- Lucinda's expression when Neal comes to hug her kills me every time.
- Beth Logan is dead.
- Neal Alcott was another character creation especially tailored to a particular actress. Doug had the same experience with Jane Elliot on Guiding Light. He just adored and honored powerful women.
- She's such a sweetheart isn't she r135. I still feel it was terrible injustice to have Eileen Fulton standing in a hallway as her final scene on ATWT as mere fodder to Lucinda and John. Lisa should have joined Bob and Kim in that final scene and escorted out Bob, arm in arm with her and Lisa. Eileen Fulton was the definitive icon of soap operas before anybody had ever heard of Susan Lucci. I was so happy when three of daytime's most iconic villains paid tribute to Eileen at the 50 years of Soap awards... and the 'Lisa' clip is THE best of the entire show! Her hair looks GREAT!
- R128 Amen to that!Susan aged so badly though. She was such a gorgeous thing when she was young. Robin looks OK. Vicky Wyndham still has some of her looks. Elizabeth Hubbard on the other hand looks damn good for her age. She is close to 80 and is fucking a guy in her thirties ,good for her.
- Lisa should have uttered the final line of the series, but the final shot should have been Bob.
- sorry, here's the clip:
- It is still an injustice that Susan Lucci didn't get the final shot on AMC
- That 50 Years of Soaps show was great! Whoever put that together knew his shit.
- r148, the montage at the beginning of the show with all the soap families is pure genius. It is sentimental in the best way. Start at 1:07 and enjoy!
- r140, you made me cry. That was killer. Everything about the Neal Alcott story was great drama. It's too bad it had to end.
- Doug Marland created the Reardon Boarding House.
Pat Falken Smith created Company when a runaway house crashed into the boarding house and Ross told Bea she could legally keep it.
- I never understood why Neal was killed off. I understand the Royce story and all that, but I would have much rather had Royce's issues play out and kept Neal around.
It was all so weird how it ended, but this was the story that was going on right as Doug died.
- Maybe MKA only committed to a year or something. Or maybe Doug intended Neal to be killed all along.
- No Neal dying (in May) had nothing to do with Doug dying (in March). Doug was much farther ahead storywise than that and they were taping far enough ahead that that timeline doesn't work. That story ended just because Mary Kay Adams didn't want to extend her time on the show. (Royce's story, however, was shortened because of Doug's passing.)
- The story about Andy Dixon carrying a shirtless picture of Mike Kasnoff in his wallet is totally made up by the anti Carly troll! I certainly don't remember it.
- r21, I LOVED Kim's vocabulary. It was so unique! There was an amazing scene about 6 or 7 years ago where Kim and Susan had an argument after so many years not being in a scene together and all the old vocab came back, with Kim saying "You don't fool me kiddo!" Susan got the last zinger by saying "Say hi to Bob for me will you?" then Kim shrieked "OH GO TO HELL, SUSAN!!!", storming out. Then Susan smiled as if to say, 'It's On again.' The actresses were so thrilled to be playing that scene.
- 6 months, r153 (November to May). Doug asked her to stay, but she declined.
- R155 Of course I made it up, you ninny. It would have been a much different story if I hadn't.
I don't think I said "shirtless." It's a nice touch, though.
- r158 - what puzzles me more is how you found Andy so darn infatuating. Especially since you don't seem to suffer fools gladly (not that I consider myself one of course!)
- In addition to what I've already written, I'll just say he seemed like such a normal guy to me, one who could've been gay.
He was a lot like me. Though I don't think this is my main reason for being attracted to him, I was three years sober when he crashed into Lien's car.
- So, for you, there is some kind of link between alcoholism and closeted sexuality?
- Oh, it's bigger than a link, dear.
- And that's actually an astute perception, R161.
- So, what was it about 'Carly' corrupting 'Andy' in real life that you couldn't handle?
- In college, my friends and I would quote Lucinda lines all the time--and I think most of them were Hubbard's ad-libs. She was fantastic. I remember one scene where Lisa was saying something catty to her and walked out and Lucinda whispered to whomever the other person was, "white trash!"...we said that over and over.
Sometimes though, Hubbard was a less than generous scene partner--she often seemed to be trying to pull focus--mugging, swatting imaginary flies, fiddling with her accessories, etc., etc. I have a feeling some of that is what kept her from ever winning an Emmy for ATWT (which she DID deserve).
- Loved Lucinda's little entourage of Jane and Ambrose.
- For those of you really wanting nostalgia, here are the closing credits for a week of 1987- the second (out of three) versions of "The World Turns On and On."
Oh, that glissando...
- And "Guiding Light":
- Liz just doesn't want to fall into a routine r165. She has to keep a kind of spontaneous vibe going or it feels like she's trapped. Tony Geary is the same. They are a specific type of artist. Beverlee McKinsey used to memorize other people's dialogue so never went off the page - she was some kind of frightening genius in that way. Harding LeMay tells a funny story about his first day on the set of Another World, he happened to be within earshot as Connie was rehearsing a lengthy monologue he had written for her character. Expecting her to roll with it, she merely looked up at her co-star and said "Whatever the fuck THAT means."
- Oh, the long-suffering Jane and Ambrose! How I loved those scenes.
Favorite Lucinda line ever:
Lucinda: Matthew, go around and get the car.
Lily: That's not Matthew.
Lucinda: Darling, they're ALL Matthew!
- God, every time I see that last cast credit
[quote]AND..... LISA...... EILEEN FULTON
I swear, I get goosebumps.
- R169 I think that was the same one where she just read a line or two of it when they taped, and Lemay realized less was more with Connie.
What a kick in the cunt!
- The catch in Larry Haines throat in this scene is my MARY! moment.
- r165, this is a phenomenon amongst soap opera divas. Ruth Warrick was exactly the same - she said in the days before VCR's, college kids told her they would write Phoebe's amazing dialogue on their hands. Camille Paglia once stopped Beverlee McKinsey or the woman who played her maid Vivian (I forget which) and having memorized several of her speeches, such as Iris chastising the maid for talking to the plant: "I hope you're not discussing ME with that monstrosity!", she recited them back to her perfectly.
- My Grandma hated Kim. She never forgave her for fucking Bob.
- My mom never liked Kim with Bob because she loved Kim and Dan!
- R164, I have no idea what you expected me to glean from that video.
- Unfortunately, R174, I never got to see Beverlee as Iris, but I loved, loved, loved Vivien-with-an-E whenever she was in a scene with Carmen Duncan.
- r177, did you miss Kathy Hays at the end talking about her reaction to Scott and Maura?
- God Michael Park is hot!
- Michael Park is a lot of things, hot is not one of them.
Hunt Block, young Holden, Shawn Christian, Agim Kaba and Simon Fraiser where the hottest things to ever be on World Turns.
- R177 I just realized youtube is sticking on me. It just stopped and only advances a couple of seconds at a time. This happened last night, too.
- The coolest star to come out of ATWT or any soap for that matter is Julianne Moore. She was classy enough to come back to the show in its final months and say goodbye. How classy.
I'm loving all the Lucinda love here. There would be no Kristen DiMera or Ms Jill abott if it wasn't for the Queen of All Villianesses, Lucinda. Oh and remember that the poor thing suffered through multiple Lillys.Oh ,Martha Byrne and Liz had such chemistry together didn't they? Can you imagine having someone so fabulous being your mom? Martha did such a good job that the other Lillys just can't compare.
- Julianne's cameo was a true delight. I loved the emotion in her voice when she said "To Bob and Kim." I just wish there had been a Doug Cummings reference in there.
- I love Lucy, too, R183, but doesn't Jill Abbott predate her by a decade or so?
- Jill didn't become the crazy villainess until Dickson returned to the role in 1984.
- Lynn Herring actually auditioned to replace Brenda Dickson as Jill but for obvious reasons, being too young, she didn't get it. I think r183 is referring to the villainess incarnation of Jill who Lucinda DOES in fact pre-date by about a year. Or was it the same time?
- Hubbard first joined WT in 1984 as well.
- R169, Connie was such a kick in the cunt. It just so happens that I started watching soap operas during the writers' strike of 1988, when AW was at least using Pete Lemay's storylines. I didn't know any of the history at the time.
I was home sick one summer day and they were doing a story about this girl (Josie) who was embarrassed about not being good enough for this boy (Matthew) she'd met on some teen chatline (phone; pre-internet). Her mother (Sharlene) spent a couple of scenes assuring her she was every bit as good as any of the Corys.
Even though I hadn't a clue as to the subtext or backstory, I thought it was one of the most compelling moments I'd ever seen anywhere. And I was hooked. Ada was one of my favorite characters, along with Jake and Vicky. I've always loved the "haves" v. the "have-nots" theme the show embodied.
- To continue our Lucinda love-fest, here's some stellar scenes from after Neal's death when Royce goes off on Lucinda and she basically just takes it.
- Barbara Mandrell daughter played Lucinda's neice
- Lucinda wasn't a villain. She was complicated and layered.
- The Snyders cast Lucinda as the villain of the piece. Passive aggressive country bumpkins.
- I'm going a little vague at the details here - did Lucinda's mother sexually abuse Royce, hence the split personality?
- r189, Anne Heche was incredible on Another World. Another genius we're talking about here.
You want complecated and layered ?
I give you Iris Cory played by the sublime Beverlee McKinsey.
It doesn't get any better than La Bev- be it as Iris or Alexandra.
Bow down bitches!
- I so wish I'd been able to see that on a daily basis, R196. I hadn't a clue about soap opera then. I'm glad I was able to see her on GL, at least.
That said, I Loved Lucinda.
- R181 clearly hasn't seen Michael Park's huge bulge.
- R196, you are my kind of people!
- Iris' wedding where the groom gets shot. Hilarious.
- "Alex loved roses! WHHHHHY?!"
- R179 Finally I saw it. It was sweet.
As I considered some of the posts about the old shows, I realized my main problem with Carly is that I associate her with the decade-and-a-half of execrable writing she performed after Douglas Marland died.
And it was just as bad on the other shows. I truly believe P&G made them this bad on purpose, so no one would complain when the shows were canceled.
- r202, fine but that's hardly Maura's fault. If anything she was the one who made the damn show watchable in the late 90s. I challenge anybody on this board to produce footage of a sexier and more erotically charged actress (other than my darling Liz Hubbard of course):
- What on earth does that old hambone Liz Hubbard have to do with the Reardon boarding house?
- I'll never forget McKinsey as Iris calling out after Mac - DADDYYYY!!!!
- Maura was one of the few post-Marland characters that made the show watchable.
Henry was the other one, for me.
Katie was at first, until her vagina became the slit that No Man Could Refuse.
- This is a thread for all P&G soaps. Enjoy it.
- Mac and Rachel's fights over Iris were legendary.
- Whoops, I meant Carly, not Maura.
- If you want to talk about P&G actresses, Hubbard can't hold a candle to Lois Kibbee. Now there was a great actress.
- Fuck me, Daddy!
- [quote] Hubbard can't hold a candle to Lois Kibbee. Now there was a great actress.
And an even greater dyke!
- What about Anna Stuart? She turned Anne Heche on to vibrators!
Who had been the best Vicky/Marley combo on AW? Wheeler(I think she was the best),Heche(she had an edge BUT I didn't know what it was at the time),Buchanan(the hottest one looks wise but she was better on OLTL)or Wheeler/Buchanan?
- I loved rich bitch Lucinda, but my first love was Phoebe Tyler Wallingford--I still say "strumpet" as much as possible because of her!
AMC was always my soap, but I loved ATWT in the 80s, mainly for Lucinda, and of course because I was in love with both Julianne Moore and Steve Bassett (Seth).
I love y'all reminding me about Kim's dialogue--"kiddo!"
- I can name at least 10 P&G actresses who were superior to old bag of tricks Hubbard:
Connie Ford, Bev McKinsey, Vicki Wyndham, Lois Kibbee, Mary Stuart, Maeve Kinkead, Kathleen Widdows, Maureen Garrett, Anne Heche, and Holland Taylor.
Anne Heche was by far the best Vicky-Marley combo. She made the two characters completely different. Even with the sound muted, I could tell by a two second glance at the TV whether Heche was playing Marley or Vicky. She had different postures and body language for the characters. Amazing performances. She EARNED her daytime Emmy.
Ellen Wheeler was also quite good. She distinguished the two characters by different vocal inflections and slightly different postures. And of course, the differences in make-up made it easy to distinguish the two. She also deserved her Emmy.
Jensen Buchanan played Vicky quite well but was horrible with Marley. I saw little difference between the two characters except that Marley wore sweaters often. But without the wardrobe help, I often couldn't distinguish them. On more than one occasion, I watched what I thought was a scene between Marley and Donna only to discover later in the episode it had been a scene between Vicky and Donna.
- MKA should have gone back to GL and played India out to the end. That was her role.
She played well with Zaslow, McKinsey, Bernau, Aleksander, verDorn; all the GL greats.
- What about me?
- Ahh, Rhonda Lewin, the Margaret Impert of the Vickys.
- R215 I love Liz Hubbard, but yes, I co-sign Maeve Kinkead and Maureen Garrett.
Garrett in particular is an underappreciated gem.
- Until about the 80s, PG shows cast odd/interesting looking actors, they weren't traditionally soap hot. Does that make any sense? At some point PG got on the hot actor bandwagon.
- Well played, R219. My hat and scarf is off to you!
- [quote] Until about the 80s, PG shows cast odd/interesting looking actors, they weren't traditionally soap hot.
Theater/Broadway hot, closer to real life hot.
- R221, Kevin Bavon is a prime example
- I'd love to get your thoughts on Hubbard vs. Sleestak. Who's the better actress?
- Jacquie Courtney and George Reinholdt really fucked themselves, didn't they? Jacquie did have minimal success on OLTL as Pat and driving Slezak batshit crazy.
- Hubbard. No contest.
- Sleestak has her hammy moments too. It's really two different styles and two different characters.
Viki was such a sob sister (save for the alters) and Niki was an extreme exaggeration, while Lucinda was such a shark.
- One thing about Elizabeth Hubbard. She was asked about the quality of storytelling on soaps. This was probably in the late-1990s. She said that part of the problem is that there was a rise of new writers who did not read. Hubbard was saying that they weren't as informed and enlightened as their predecessors — and that affected how soaps presented their stories. She was right.
- If we're discussing various actresses take on the same role, how about discussing all the actresses who played Alice Matthews Frame.
- Jackie Courtney was the quintessential soap actress, which is why she was canned. She had tons of charisma, but her acting was too soapy. Rauch and Lemay were turning the cast into a theater repetory company, and Courtney's simplistic acting had no place. Susan Harney, her successor, was a better actress, but lacked that certain something. Wesley Ann Pfenning and Vana Tribbey were forgettable. I liked Linda Borgeson's take on the character. She played her as very warm and loving, but I think she was ultimately deemed too dull.
- Harding Lemay conceded that other Alice's lacked the star quality that Jacquie had.
- Jackie was Alice. Even when she was playing Pat Kendall on OLTL, I saw Alice. She had created an indelible impression on AW and I never saw her as anyone but Alice, despite being on OLTL for 8 years.
None of the other actresses playing Alice ever felt like Alice. Susan Harney probably did the best job in the part, but wasn't Alice.
I personally liked Linda Borgeson's take on Alice. She brought a warmth to the role that had been missing in all the recasts. She also had good chemistry opposite Douglass Watson when they tried an Alice-Mac pairing.
But Linda lacked the star quality Jackie had. Linda was also burdened with having to play opposite David Canary as Steve Frame, who was completely wrong for the role. While David is a good actor, he was NOT Steve Frame.
Like Jackie as Alice, George Reinholt made an indelible impression as Steve.
- Wish I had seen the Reardon era on GL. I loved the Snyders and the fact that they were on until the end.
Was headwriter Pam Long married to the actor who played Fletcher Reade (and the Willis' white son?)
- Yes, R234, Pam Long was married to Jay Hammer.
I started watching [italic]Guiding Light[/italic] in 1984, and the Reardons were drying out. Tony would be on for maybe another year but, after that, only Maureen would remain. I caught Ellen Dolan in the role and, in 1986, she left the series and the part was recast with Ellen Parker. Parker was more effective in the role; she was deeper. Even before her Emmy-winning 1992-93 season, she was very poignant in conveying the heartbreak of Maureen not being able to biologically have children. The show brought on Bridget in 1991. So, we had a five-year period of the only Reardon being Maureen. The soap killed off Maureen in January 1993, and that left just Bridget until the 1994 arrival of Matt played Kurt McKinney. Lisa Brown's Nola came back shortly thereafter. Then in 1997, Melissa Hayden left and took Bridget with her. In the last five years of [italic]Guiding Light[/italic], the only Reardon we saw was a recurring Matt. (The destruction of his marriage to Vanessa played by Maeve Kinkead.) And both Nola and Bridget visited the final week.
- I forgot...who were Matt's and Bridget's father? Were they the same man? How many kids did Bea have? I remember Maureen, Nola, Tony and Jim, but not any others.
- Sean was Matt's father; there was Sean, Pat, Maureen, Jim, Tony, Nola and Chelsea, I think.
- Oh I forgot about Chelsea.
- As did I.
Sorry, Chelsea fans!
Kassie DePaiva's soap success has mainly been as Blair on [italic]One Life to Live[/italic].
- Back around 86 or 87, HWs Sheri Anderson and Joe Manetta were about to introduce some new Bauers. They had already cast Frank Dicopolous as Todd Bauer. Then Pam Long returned as HW and decided not to nix any more Bauers. Instead she cast Dicopolous as Frank Cooper and then Ehlers as Harley. P&G/soap fans, am I getting this story right?
- I remember Frank being cast as Todd Bauer; the Coopers certainly added a 'have not' element to the show that was needed.
My favorite Alan line was when he said to Reva (after she proclaimed it was 'over' between her and Joshua): "And how many times has it been 'over' between you and Josh? It's time for a new regime."
Phillip really stuck it to Alan one time when, about a trip to see Justin, Phillip said: "I'm going to see my father. Oh. I mean my real father."
Alan was crushed.
- How could ya'll forget my duet -- Simply Love -- with Johnny?
- Simply Love at 3:41
- When, as a sexually confused 14-year-old, I turned on the TV one afternoon in 1983 and got a gander at Grant Aleksander, I would never again doubt that I was gay.
- Where's the love for me, bitches? It shouldn't matter that Pam Long shamelessly lifted my surname from "Texas." I was fierce, and that's all that counts.
- This thread made me feel all cozy, just remembering how good these shows once were.
- Mmm.....Kelly Nelson in that Speedo makes my lady hamper all moist!
- [quote] My favorite Alan line was when he said to Reva (after she proclaimed it was 'over' between her and Joshua): "And how many times has it been 'over' between you and Josh? It's time for a new regime."
Pam Long's return the second time, in 1987, was one of those times where a head writer came on and immediately, a show went from shit ti FABULOUS.
In like a week, bitch had Guiding Light HUMMING.
There was some fabulous scenes between Reva, who had broken up with Josh and who thought Marah was Kyle's baby, and Alan, where Alan told her he'd write her a check for $250,000 if she told him the story from her youth about eating garbage.
Whatever mistakes Pam Long made, the great thing about her characters is that you knew what drove them and what made them who they were. Reva was a favorite for many then because she actually had a defined purpose and a hunger. So did Harley.
And yes, Fran Dicopolous was originally cast as Todd Bauer, who I think was supposed to be related to Lacey Bauer, the cheerleading Bauer who was onscreen for like a minute, but Pam decided to create a new have-not family.
- I love you R248.
GL was brilliant at that time.
Alan went to see Phillip around this time with a bunch of papers for him to sign, relinquishing his inheritance. Brilliant stuff.
Let me give you one more 'thing,' Alan said throwing Phillip a fancy pen so he could sign away all his money.
India. Alexandra. Fletcher. Sonni (!) Maeve. Vanessa. Harley. Ed. Maureen.
It's ridiculous that people call it 'the Reva show.' Sure, Zimmer had her screen time -- and Emmys, but there was so much more there.
- Reardon clan was introduced in 1980 while Roger Thorpe was on the run and hiding out in the boarding house. There were seven Reardon siblings.
First ones introduced were Nola, Tony and Maureen, plus their mom, Bea. All Doug Marland creations.
Jim Reardon (played by Michael Woods) came on in 84 under Pam Long's reign, but only stayed for a year.
Pretty soon after that, Tony and his new wife Annabel left town, followed by Nola and Quint.
In 1986, Chelsea Reardon came for a two year run, but she wasn't a very memorable character.
The Bea Reardon character left about this time.
Bridget and Matt were the children of Sean Reardon, grandchildren of Bea. The Sean character came on for a few episodes to flesh out the Bridget and Matt storylines.
I don't recall the 7th Reardon child ever being on. Don't recall his/her name, but r237 said it was Pat.
In 1995, in an effort to goose the ratings, they brought back Nola. However, the show was going through writers and EPs like Kleenez at that point. None of them knew how to use Nola properly and she was completely wasted. They ultimately wrote her off but only after she stalked Buzz (!!).
- Leslie Denniston, who played Maeve on GL, is married to Don Hastings, who played Bob on ATWT. She's still a beauty.
http://www3.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Don Hastings Leslie Denniston zOq0cBFQhT7m.jpg
- I love r248 as well, since I also vividly remember that transition to Pam Long's material. The show was godawful in the weeks before her material aired. Then suddenly the show was on fire the first week her scripts aired. I've watched soaps for years, and I really can't recall a change in HW that saw that stark a change so quickly. Reva was again the outcast, and I remember Alan escorting her to the country in her iconic red dress, and all hell broke loose. Then the Sonny/Solita wonderfulness would go into high gear with the fascinating Michelle Forbes. I even enjoyed the Johnny Bauer cancer story...very uplifting. The only downside coinciding with her return was Chris Bernau's sudden disappearance from screen (castmates were saying he had lyme disease) and quickly thereafter his death from AID-related causes.
- Yeah, those really were great times on GL, R252.
- Nola and Quint left first, March '85, I recall.
Tony and Annabelle left DURING a Blue Orchid gala in June.
Great scene with Alex and Alan in a private room at the country club where he told her not to reveal that Marah was really Josh's.
"Marah's REAL 'daddy' Josh Lewis is back at Lewis Oil," Alan snarled at Alex. (They were fighting over Reva.) "And you know what sweet revenge those savages are capable of!"
"We'll find a way to keep down the damage," Alex shot back. "Our company will survive the likes of Reva Shayne!"
Pam RAN with it.
It was so sad when Bernau left in May/June of '88. He hung in there till just after Phillip stole the company from him.
Grant Aleksander should have won an Emmy for the tossing Alan out of Spaulding shows.
"Try and disown me now," a drunk Phillip said afterwards.
Just brilliant shit.
- For some reason, I'm remembering Bernau's last scenes were with Peter Simon and Ellen Parker. Ed and Mo were about to leave on a long-deserved vacation, when Alan shows up at their door for some reason, maybe something about Alan-Michael. I don't recall the specifics. Pretty sure that was his last scene before Daniel Pilon took over in a hurry. I remember stories in the press speculating that Bernau had Lyme disease. His abrupt departure was such a mystery at the time, that even Entertainment Tonight, which hardly covered soaps, did a feature on it. I remember them interviewing Michelle Forbes, who said that she heard he had Lyme. One of her other screen partners Joseph Breen would also test poz. I believe he was on ATWT as Scott Eldridge when he came up positive. He also abruptly left, to be replaced by Doug Wert. I believe Breen is still alive.
Sorry for the rambling!
- What's Pam Long doing now ?
- I wonder in light of Berneau and Breen (tho I think he was married to a woman with children) and others, how many young actor hunks on soaps in NY and in LA went ahead and got married to women and stopped having gay sex?
- Grant Aleksander (real name Grant Kunkowski) still looks damn good.
- For those of who don't know, Grant is a former high school classmate of DL's very own Pammie Shriver.
See page 4 of their school newspaper with their photos side by side.
- Dear Stalker,
a friend of mine thinks you're me, for what's it worth.
Thanks for sharing that stuff; especially the video.
GA seems like a thoughtful guy who appreciates family and small moments like taking his father in law to see the ocean.
I hear he and his wife are really big pet advocates, not surprisingly.
- Why did GL get rid of Kathleen Cullen as Amanda? I loved Amanda, Ross and Josh forming their own oil company.
[quote]a friend of mine thinks you're me, for what's it worth.
You sound like an attractive and wonderful person!
- I watched GL from about 78 to 89 or so and then only occasionally in the 90s. The Amanda/Lucille/Ben/Jennifer Richards stories were fascinating - almost as intriguing as the Holly & Roger storylines. The shows from that era are so interesting. Quiet, slowly paced dialog that sounded real, the way friends would talk. I bought a German dvd of GL that features 20 consecutive episodes starting in 11/79. This was the show I loved. Rita Lloyd is amazing as Lucille. Kathleen Cullen is perfectly cast as Amanda. I wish they would issue a second volume of dvds.
- R248, Lacey wasn't a cheerleader, she was an aspiring gymnast hoping to get to the Olympics. The girl they cast was interesting looking and had enormous eyes but was woefully inadequate because she'd never acted before. She really was a gymnast. She only lasted one contract cycle (13 weeks).
Another piece of fun trivia-Beth's cousin Jessie was originally going to be named India. Kristi Ferrell auditioned for that but it was wisely decided she'd be better as Roxy, Reva's sister. I loved Kristi Ferrell. I wonder what happened to her. I gather she developed a bad cocaine habit while on the show and got fired because it was interfering with her work.
- I always wished that some day we'd see Nola turning into Bea via her own troublesome daughter Stacey (who was originally named Kelly-Louise). But Stacey never materialized.
Breen isn't gay. He became HIV+ thru IV drug use.
- R266, interesting; he was gorgeous and sexy. I wasn't sure if he were bi. It's very sad.
I wonder though about other actors who were HIV positive on soaps in the '80s. Lots of guys were from EDGE OF NIGHT.
I wonder if that prompted any bi guys who were on the fence where they fell onto the hetero side.
- A special message to Datalounge from Miss Lily Walsh...
- Breen's first wife eventually divorced him. He's now married to former wild child Carlene Carter. She's the daughter of June Carter Cash.
IIRC they met each other in rehab.
He no longer acts which is a shame. I thought he was really good in the Sonni/Solita story.
He now plays music in Carlene's band.
- Annie Dutton was Guiding Light's last good storyline.
- Amazing to think Elizabeth Hubbard is the same age as Elizabeth Taylor. In my eyes, she is a SUPERSTAR baby!
- Do you remember how Holly broke the news to Roger?
[quote]Maureen Bauer was killed in a car crash.
No build up. She just came out with it. Never forgot that. So powerful.
- R258 R259 Any pictorial proof of Philip's purported penile perfection?
- Jacquie Courtney, along with Denise Alexander, was the best loved soap actress of the late 60's to mid 70's. Both had iconic roles on NBC soaps and then went on to long runs on ABC soaps. Jacquie was a terrific actress. I gather George caused problems, and Jacquie was collateral damage. There was a big issue with Jacquie getting a dressing room that had a shower and phone, but NBC gave that to her. Why should she have turned that down? There was NO other Alice. Something clicked with viewers and let's face it, Rauch and Lemay were both sick individuals who had problems with women (Rauch) and alcohol (Lemay). Lemay's infamous pissing into to potted plant at the 1974 AW Christmas party is something you don't forget!
- Robin Strasser and Linda Dano gave beautiful commemorations to Jacquie. It shows what class acts these women are that they would stop to take the time, especially since modern soap audiences would not be familiar with Jacquie.
- [quote]I met Jacquie Courtney when I was cast as Rachel on Another World. During the years the show was at it's all time height, and set industry-wide standards, it was due in large part to Jacquie Courtney's indelibly romantic incandescence. Lucky for me...because, as it turned out Rachel was all about shadow and darkness trying to steal Alice's light. Alice and Steve...and mean and jealous Rachel. That was a triangle with edges...and like the show during the time the great Agnes Nixon was Head Writer, it had an edgy, unpredictable quality to it. Jacquie's Alice had grace and beauty, delicacy and strength, that made her a joy to watch. She was still going to High School when we met, but she was already a seasoned professional, having worked as a child. She would do her own make-up. She had fabulous bone structure, those cheek bones, her perfect nose and full lips. And the bluest eyes...she could connect immediately with her emotions, and I'd envy that she could cry and still look pretty, pretty, pretty. She was the girl you wanted to be...if only. She was the sister/daughter you wished you had. She was the friend you wanted to have. I am grateful to your website for posting this significant tribute, which gives her fans, and former colleagues the chance to recognize and celebrate the life and contributions of this wonderful woman.
- Linda Dano:
[quote]Jackie and I became great friends at ONE LIFE TO LIVE. She was an extraordinary talent in daytime, a good friend, and an extraordinary human being. We are all saddened by her untimely death."
[quote]I am shocked and very upset and disturbed. I know death comes to us all but I think she died too young. Much too young. I loved her. Truly. She was wonderful to work with. And I think of her often.
- Wow, Jacquie Courtney sounds like a great person.
Speaking of Elizbeth Hubbard, it always gives me a thrill to see her pop up in her tiny role in Ordinary People.
- It's also fun to see Kathleen Widdoes in The Group, opposite a young Candice Bergen, Jessica Walter, Shirley Knight, Joan Hackett, etc...on of my favorite 60s movies. And it also has one of my favorite GL actresses...Carrie Nye aka Susan Piper!
Go to 1:00:27 for their scene together.
- r278, Liz should have played the role of the mother in that movie. She could have been a MAJOR film star. Beautiful, imperious, full package.
- I don't know how Liz Hubbrd tolerated being interviewed this this impudent Dutch boy. What a thoroughly indecent & trash talking little brat with obviously no respect for his guest.
- In Holland, Elizabeth Hubbard is basically on the level of a major movie star. Look at the reception she gets on this talkshow.
-Courtney was in high school whn she started on AW ?
-Agnes Nion was the HW ?
I am so shocked by both of those things.
- Yes, Aggie wrote Another World in the 1960s. Rachel was the prototype for her later creation of Erica Kane.
- So am I, R283.
- To those wanting to know about AW, Susan Harney and Jacqui Courtney,
Beverly Penberthy's Gay Nephew Is Taking Your Questions at the thread below
btw he got his Aunt Bev to confirm the following lesbians on the show. Irene Daily, Connie Ford and Nancy Wickwire!
- Aunt Liz is one of us, too. Oh, you've made my day, R286. Ada and Aunt Liz.
- All this Lucinda love...amazing. She was so fabulous on the show. Can you imagine if someone else had played her? I wasn't a big fan of the Lily recasts but Liz made it work to a certain degree. Even still Martha and Liz had such great chemistry and supposedly they are close in real life as well.
Who was the hottest guy on ATWT? For me it's a toss up between Jon Hensley and Paolo Segante. I always thought that Paolo had more of an edge and danger about him. JH was more apple pie than he was. Jon ended up marrying the cute but boring Kelley Menighan.
A shutout for Stephen Schnetzer from AW. What an underrated actor and a decent looking one to boot. I loved it when he did a faux French accent for the ROC commercials. It sounded so terrible they made him go to his normal voice for future commercials.
- I remember when Cass (Schnetzer) was kidnapped by Cecile in 1986 while wearing nothing but a black Speedo.
- I love you, r268.
- R289 I remember watching those episodes as well. Cecile and Cass looked really great together.Nancy Frangione was another underrated actress who never really got her due. She wasn't Liz Hubbard by any means but she did quite a decent job at doing Cecile.
- IS it fair to classify Lucinda as a pearl-clutcher? I seem to remember her always clutching at the eye glasses she had hanging from her neck.
- r288, it's impossible to choose between Damian and Holden. Damian had that feminine European beauty but ferocious macho temperament and Holden was the total opposite - physically masculine & rugged and yet gentle as a lamb. It made for a rather stunning contrast and frankly, I wouldn't have minded them having a roll in the hay themselves.
- Let's just say if soap characters were drag queen fodder, Lucinda Walsh and Felicia Gallant would be the main imitation!
- Lucinda shamelessly flirting with Damian! This was some of Doug Marland's final material that went to air before his death.
- I also loved Liz Hubbard as Althea on the Doctors. She and Gerald Gordon really sizzled together.
- R294 How true. I think that when Ms Brenda Dickson returned back to that Bell soap on CBS(for her second tour of duty) she became the campiest drag queen of all time on soaps.She was a terrible actress but fit the part so well.However Ms Lucinda and Ms Felicia were far classier and far more elegant.Both of those actresses could run rings around Ms Brenda Dickson acting wise as well.
- Please, R293. Andy was hottest. Or one of the endless series of Paul and Chris recasts.
Holden was alright, but he looked too much like two of my cousins. And Damien looked like he wiped his nose on his hand, then cleaned his hand with his hair. Gross.
- [quote]I remember when Cass (Schnetzer) was kidnapped by Cecile in 1986 while wearing nothing but a black Speedo.
He looked great in that speedo. He was a very good, though largely unsung actor, adept at tragedy, comedy and romance. Elizabeth Hubbard (and Lucinda) would have loved him.
I just watched the last season of The Wire and Schnetzer shows up in a small but pivotal role towards the end of it.
- The guy who played Hank Elliot was cute. He never did anything else. All his interviews at the time were about him being straight.
- R298 Andy was alright. I wasn't a big fan of his facial hair.Damian didn't look that bad though.He was a good looking man with a bit of danger about him. Holden looked like two of your cousins? Did you fool around with them(boy toy sandwich style) in your younger days at least ?!
I missed it when Cass appeared on ATWT. Who did he interact with? I know that he showed up in his capacity as an attorney. It's shocking if he had no scenes with La Liz.
- I forgot about the Another World characters showing up on As the World Turns. It was ridiculous, really. Those shows were totally different. I absolutely could not buy they took place in the same 'world'.
- Oh please, nothing could beat James Wleck (Linc Lafferty) for pure, unadulterated masculine hotness. I remember first seeing him on Ryan's Hope, and I was like, HOLY SHIT! I wonder if Marland got to sampele his furry feets.
- Doug Wert didn't replace Joe Breen as Scott immediately. They had time to write out Scott properly without a replacement. Maybe you are thinking of Grant on AW?
- Weird storyline when Cindy Harrison from Bay City turned up in Oakdale to meet her blonde doppelganger Carly Tenney and talk about.... microchips.
- Andy always seemed slightly, uh, "special," to me..he always seemed to have a stutter going on. I know he had an "addictive," personality but all his storyline were about being in love with women who could care less about him, and he being pissed when someone would point it out. Plus I had to endure that ugly Courtney because of him..you know, the Courtney who was plain as hell but was an in demand model? I remember not watching the show for months and tuning in at Christmas because I loved watching them cram everyone in Oakdale into Bob and Kim's house. But that year they had it in Andy's little dump of an apartment because Andy insisted and would be angry if they didnt.
But I always thought the Paul actor at the time was a midget with a mullet and he was having it off with smoking hot Emily???I would have recast both of them.
- Never a fan of mullet Paul, or as we called him, Barbara's pasty-faced boy.
- I totally agree about Andy being a bit touched in the head. Like there was absolutely no self awareness or sense of humor there. He reacted to everything in deadly earnest, not at all like his father the good Dr Dixon.
- I thought Roger Howarth and Cady McClain were fantastic and inspired recasts as Paul Ryan & Rosanna Cabot. It was exciting to see them both play against type. Howarth playing nicer and Cady getting to be the raging bitch.
- Roger Howarth is not an inspired anything, R309.
- Datalounge, can I get some love for Julia Lindsey Snyder and her joker grin please? Thank yooou! Love Annie Parrise!
- r310, I don't want to hear from you Anti Carly Troll!
- Agreed on Andy..no sense of humor, every thing was deadly earnest and about "ME," I wish they had done a story where there was a baby switch in the hospital and Andy wasnt Kim and John's kid. They could have brought a hot, snarky, up to no good guy on to drive Kim to clutch her pearls and snarl "Bub." to him. Of course everyone would be too polite to tell Andy he wasnt really part of the family,so they could have kept him on as recurring and we would see him in the kitchen, stuttering to poor Nancy about his latest love of his life..."How nice dear, now can you please go and change Mac's diaper?"
- Oh, and after I thought we'd made up, R312.
- Either R313 or R312 is MADD in disguise. Or maybe one is FMB.
- I liked Scott Holyrod (sp?) as Paul. When he was on the show, I saw him with his wife/gf at Bed, Bath and Beyond on 6th Ave. in Chelsea shopping for sheets. He was incredibly handsome in person, much more so than on screen, and very tall with a swimmer's build. All I could think was that his wife/gf was one incredibly lucky bitch.
- I'd didn't even have to Trolldar to know it was you. Your tone throughout this thread has consistently been petulant, snarky and gleefully negative. All for the love of Andy!!!
- I never felt the Liz Hubbard love. Her acting was just so mannered and highly stylized. Lucinda couldn't have been THAT great a character if Felicia Minei Behr deemed her dispensible. I absolutely loved that FMB wouldn't play ball with Hubbard, and the show never suffered from her absence. When Goutman inexplicably asked her back later on, he promised her front-burner story, which she rarely got. Even her stupid cancer story was played mostly off-screen and was pretty much all about propping Lily and Holden. Hubbard is ok, but she's not the cat's meow so many people think she is. There have been better. Much better.
- Andy Dixon looked like a scout in the Hitler Youth, way too over zealous and emotionally self indulgent. These are the kind of boys that Hitler recruited to do his dirty work.
- R318 MADD and FMB ruined ATWT.
- r318, omg, your post is making me seriously uptight. What exactly is FMB? She's not an artist. She had no perception about passion or spontaneity. Liz was right. The people in charge of daytime now are illiterate philistines.
- FMB is an excellent producer. The actors on AMC adored her and she kept the show in firm second place for most of her run. She was only let go from AMC after seven years because she refused to cave into pressure from ABC to make the show less family oriented. She just wasn't a totally good fit for ATWT, but she and Lorraine Broderick did restore some focus to the show after some disastrous writing regimes. She knew that Liz Hubbard wasn't vital to ATWT.
- I'm sure she did stellar work at AMC. Who wouldn't with such a cast of mediocrities? She bit off more than she could chew with ATWT.
- R318 = FMB
- The highlight of the FMB on ATWT was the Margo/Tom/Emily triangle.
- DOUG CUMMINGS OUT! Some of the most stunning drama ever written!
- Mediocrities, r393. I think not, doll. Julia Barr? Michael Knight? David Canary? James Mitchell? Jill Larson? Kate Collins? James Kiberd? Ellen Wheeler? Mary Fickett? Elizabeth Lawrence? Feliciy LaFortune? Robin Mattson? Tonya Pinkins? Dondre Warfield? The list goes on and on. There's a reason so many of these actors and their roles became iconic. In the early/mid 90s, they could match your precious ATWT cast talent for talent.
- r324=Lawrence Caso
- r327 - I'll give you Kate Collins and Julia Barr. But listen up 'kiddo' (Kim Hughes wink wink nudge nudge). This is a thread for the P&G shows. So kindly take your bile and spew it where people actively seek it out.
- [quote]There's a reason so many of these actors and their roles became iconic.
AMC actors?! To your grandmother, perhaps. Doll, in Holland people think Liz Hubbard is a Hollywood icon. Suck on THAT.
- In Holland, they also eat a lot of cheese and wear wooden shoes, so I'll take the Liz Hubbard as star thing with a grain of sea salt.
- ATWT copped out when they had Holden get his memory back. He was much more interesting without the burden of Lily. Besides Lily was better with both Damian and Simon then she ever was with Holden.
- Kim Hughes wasn't much of a singer, evidenced by that youtube clip of DOug Cummings!
- Kathryn Hays has been fired from more out-of-town musicals heading to Broadway, than any other actress.
Every time she got the axe out of town, she would head back to ATWT
- Kim Reynolds = whore!!!
- Where is the love for Arvid "Larry" Bryggman, star of soap,stage and the big screen. He has been one of the only actors that didn't seem like he was slumming on a soap(even though he was!).He added a gravitas to his work much like Liz Hubbard did. It was a shame that he disappeared from the show in 2004. However him appearing at the end of the show's run gave him some closure.
- R336, Larry Bryggman made that show every time he was on. After John and Lucinda, John and Andy were my favorite couple on the show.
- What is this obsession you have with Andy?!
- Interesting you call John and Andy a 'couple'. Daddy issues?
- Oh please, Bryggman hated soaps and looked down on the genre, all the way back to the early 70s. Although I know he respected his co-stars, he never saw the show as anything than a paycheck that would subsidize his theater work.
I remember reading a story about him having a lunch meeting with some P&G exec back in the early 70s, and he spent the whole meeting complaining to the exec about the really inferior writing on soaps, lack of any believeable character motivation and horrendous dialogue. He wanted to know why the ATWT couldn't be a better written show. The exec responded that the sure the writing is shitty, but it doesn't matter, since it's all about selling laundry detergent. Again, this was back in the "halcyon," "golden age" of the 70s, an era fans claim that the soaps were so great because the pre-Luke/Laura-type cartoonish writing hadn't yet happened and the focus was still on family and relationnships.
The bottom line is that soaps are and have always been the laughingstock of the industry, but they've always been and continue to be a fun diversion from otherwise humdrum lives.
- Loved watching John meddle constantly in Bob and Kim's lives. That's why the character of Andy was so important, and why things changed for the worse when DeFrietas was fired.
- I kept hoping Kate Collins would show up on ATWT in some capacity after she left AMC. She's my all time favorite soap actress, right up there with Julianne Moore (seriously). I didn't say either were the BEST actresses ever (even though they were excellent) on soaps, but there was something about them that I just loved.
Mary Kay Adams as India had that same "draw" for me.
- [quote]The bottom line is that soaps are and have always been the laughingstock of the industry, but they've always been and continue to be a fun diversion from otherwise humdrum lives.
Did you know that back in Shakespeare's day, his plays were considered on the level of daytime soaps? No? Good. Now shut the fuck up.
- Great taste in actresses, r342! I may have a general disdain for AMC but I love and admire Kate Collins. She always reminded me a young Connie Ford.
- Kate Collins would have been ideal for ATWT. Actually, she would have been an interesting Neal Alcott had MKA not taken the role.
- Honey I love soaps to death, but comparing them to Shakespeare? These soaps will be all but forgotten in 20 years. Yes I'm sure if Olivier were still around, he'd be doing General Hospital.
- [quote] I kept hoping Kate Collins would show up on ATWT in some capacity after she left AMC.
After AMC she auditioned for GL because one of the ex-AMC writers (Lorraine Broderick) was there. She alot for Kate.
But she didn't get the part.
- R340 He might have looked down on soaps (which are the lowest rung of written entertainment)BUT he did the best he could with the so-so material he had. That was Larry's magic because as a real actor he could manure into mousse er maybe better tasting manure!
Soaps and Shakespeare? I wonder what Old Willy would have done with the comical Clown Puppet Murders on Edge Of Night!Which made the Ice Princess saga on GH(not a P & G soap but it was on before EON on ABC) reality bound.Shakespeare is now well known around the world hundreds of years later. Something tells me that Liz Hubbard will not be remembered in Holland many years from now and Ron Moss will remembered in Italy the same way Rudy Vallee is now remembered in the US......
- Laughs it up you jerks. It's true. Will Shakespeare and his playwright peers were regarded as no better than prostitutes. Elizabeth Hubbard would have made a fine Cleopatra and Lady Macbeth on stage. My god!!!
- When FMB/Lorraine Broderick took over ATWT, there were rumors that they wanted to bring Kate Collins to the show. She'd been off AMC for a couple of years at this point. I remember some big headline about this on the cover of Soap Opera Weekly, but obviously nothing ever materialized. This would've been around 96/97. I wonder what role they envisioned for her.
- Kate Collins played Liz Atherton, Phillip's secretary on GL before she got the part of Natalie on AMC.
He was messing around with her after India blackmailed him into marriage.
- Ah who cares if they aren't Shakespeare..its all good goofy fun with a huge dose (at least on ATWT) of family sentimentality,a feeling of community and getting to know a character for 30 years.
Plus, could Will provide these timeless lines/cliches:
"Honesty is the basis for every good relationship."
Opening the door on Friday, the character looks shocked, but on Monday they are all like "Oh Lisa, its you, I thought you were out of town visiting Grant?."
Walking in right when your worst enemy admits that they fathered your adopted kid..
"I am the happiest I have ever been," right as something across town is happening to make you freakin' miserable.
And last but not least:
"What will Lily think of this?"
- Liz Atherton was the same character as Elizabeth Spaulding.
- Soaps have never gotten the respect they deserve. They were always considered cheap, disposable programming for uninteresting women/housewives. This is probably why years and years and years of classic soap were wiped and the tapes reused, meanwhile you can pull up every episode of some of the most inane, nonsense primetime programming ever created.
Here is my list of best soaps ever -
Another World 67-79 / 88-91
Edge of Night 70-80
The Doctors 72-76
Days of our Lives 67-76 / 93-97
Guiding Light 70-78 / 88-94
General Hospital 93-2000
Young and Restless 74-80 / 83-88
Secret Storm 66-71
As the World Turns 60-71 /
One Life to Live 68-80
- Did you read the fantastic comment at the link at r326? It made me smile SO MUCH!
[quote]In the '80s, soaps were the last place where you could still find old time Hollywood glamour, great dramatic acting and fabulous clothes. Eileen Fulton and Kathryn Hays were like the Bette Davis and Barbara Stanwyck of daytime TV.
- R350 Probably someone insignificant like Lily. FMB was the genius who hired Susan Batten to play Connor Jamison. Brill-fucking-yunt.
How did that woman wake up in the morning and find her way to work?
- R353, what do you mean Liz Atherton was the same as Elizabeth Spaulding?
ALan's wife? Phillip's daughter?
- People think that Jill Phelps is the only person who hires old friends.
I was watching some old TEXAS and dear lord Pam Long and Gail Kobe pretty much brought over the whole cast in one capacity or another when they went to GL.
That said, the Kobe/Long GL was brilliant. I loved it.
- R354 Days's Zenith was its most campy?!The possession, Andre's murder/suicide framing John and the Lady in The Cage?! It was fun I must admit that.
GH I liked the earlier "Monty" period better than the period you mentioned. Luke and Laura on the run from Frank Smith up until the period Donely came on.
AW Good choice. Especially the fact that Anna Stuart came back in that time period.
The Bell soap. Yeah that 83-89 period really set up its reign as the number one soap. Though in later years it would never even touch this period. Add insult to injury all the P & G soaps on CBS were much better than the Bell soaps.
EON: I liked that whole Martine/Sky/Raven period. Lori Loughlin was such a cute little thing.The Clown Puppet Murders happened as well. Allan Fawcett seemed to have his tongue firmly planted in his cheek at most times.
ATWT: I liked it best when Lucinda first appeared to when Damian first showed up. Terry Lester did a nice job when he joined the show.
OLTL Eterna was the most ridiculous and most over the top storyline. I have better memories of Vicky with those bags under her eyes pining for Cord though.I liked it better when Jensen Buchanan was around.
- R339 Some of my favorite soap relationships are between non-sexual couples.
Viki and Dorian. Jake and Ada. Andy and John. Vanessa and Maureen. And speaking of GL, perhaps the best non-sexual couple of all time was Phillip and Rick.
- r354 knows his shit. Bravo.
- What about the original Sheila Carter storyline on Y&R? Wasn't that a major creative zenith for Bell Senior?
- I never watched Y&R much: the dialogue was SO awful, and I didn't enjoy how discrete the storylines were. But occasionally I'd be home at 12:30 during the week and I'd turn it on. But when it became the Sheila show, I had to stop watching. That hair-waving tic of hers gave me hives.
- R362 It wasn't. It came in the aftermath of Bell's best period there. Kim Brown has potential but she always seemed like she was always playing it for camp.Unlike Ms Brenda Dickson she was so bad she was bad! Or was the fact that Bill Bell was becoming a doddering old fool at that point?
- Didn't you lap up the relationship with Sheila and her mother? After Molly had a stroke, Sheila faked her suicide attempt in order to get her institutionalized. It was all very twisted and funny.
- R364, wow, not nice at all calling Bill Bell -- or anyone -- a doddering old fool.
The man developed Alzheimer's...where's your compassion?
Do you think you're never going to get old?
Wouldn't you want someone to be kind to you?
Drop the ugly remarks.
If you have the slightest idea of what that is.
- r366, I love you - you low born gutter slut!
- Judi Evans replacing Calli Timmons was the biggest mistake ever.
- R366 Please stop. Bill Bell's skills in terms of plotting characterization and scripting were diminishing at that point.As far as I know his Alzheimer's was far from onset at that point. He was burned out and shot his load at that point.So the two things were mutually exclusive.In essence, Bell's glory Days on Days and Young were past him at that point. In addition,Bill Bell was not such a great person either.Just consult Brenda Dickson on what a shitheel/perv Bill Bell was. Or Terry Lester who saw Bill's daughter become a star on the show overnight because of nepotism and saw his own screen time diminish considerably because of that fact.
BTW I am old! I'm an old fart that's how I know about Dark Shadows, EON,Days,GH etc so on by watching those old shows.
- If Andy Dixon and Matthew Cory crossed paths, what would they talk about?
- R369, I disagree.
And I will not stop.
Bill still had it into the mid-90s. He stepped down in '98.
In '93, he had a presumed dead Victor walk into the Colonnade Room shocking everyone and the show hit a 9.1. The man knew what he was doing.
He went on to create Nick and Sharon's love story, Olivia's HIV scare, the batshit crazy Mari Jo Mason and so much more.
And as for you R367, that's better than being a pompous blue-blood any day!
- R370 And how big is [italic]yours[/italic]?
- [quote]Judi Evans replacing Calli Timmons was the biggest mistake ever.
Evans was more likable and had tons more chemistry with Tom Eplin, as well as most other members of the cast. If Timmons had stayed in the role, the character would never have lasted.
- Oh, and I wouldn't use Brenda 'Welcome to My Home' Dickson as a credible source.
And Terry? God rest his soul, but he popped up on Santa Barbara after Y&R. You couldn't get more different from Y&R in terms of stories and dialogue than SB. But he was unhappy there and quit after a year.
And Jack continued to have plenty of story after Peter Bergman took over the part so I don't believe Jack was diminished because of Cricket.
John Dixon still had story even after Lilly and Meg came on.
- [quote]Evans was more likable and had tons more chemistry with Tom Eplin, as well as most other members of the cast. If Timmons had stayed in the role, the character would never have lasted.
- I liked Judi Evans better, too, but she's someone I like whoever she plays.
- Cali Timmons was frustrated with the character, and it showed in her performance.
She was very unhappy on the show, so they really had no choice and let her go.
She was dragging down the show.
- R377 She always looked as if she was suffering from Pinched Sphincter Syndrome. I didn't mind her particularly, but the Red Swan story got too convoluted by the time we met Paulina.
- Cali was sultry, sophisticated and sexy.
Judi's great, but she's more of a fun girl.
Last I heard Calli gave up acting shortly after leaving AW. She married a much older man and had kids.
- Rose Deville was a great character - possibly Bill Bell's finest - a true heinous psychopath! I liked how she popped up every few years and never with the same character as before. She had that same quality as Elizabeth Hubbard's Lucinda, a real true grit. Darlene Conley is another one who never got the praise she deserved. I think of Viki Sleestack walking off with an Emmy year after year when the true mavericks don't even get nominated. Where's the justice?
- Was Terry Lester gay in real life? Do you think he was attracted to Don Diamont when they worked together? I seem to remember most of their scenes by the Abbott pool where Brad had no shirt!
- You know the Emmys are a joke because Beverlee McKinsey never got one, yet Susan Lucci does.
- Anne Heche was absolutely remarkable on Another World. I was just watching this clip and my mind is blown. She reminds me a bit of Scarlett O'Hara. Not physically of course but just watch...
- [quote] She married a much older man and had kids.
And you KNOW who she married, don't you?
- R374 She's not the nut or drag queen that she's portrayed to be BTW.Bill Bell had an inappropriate relationship with her and he supposedly had some out there kinks.
As per Terry and Christine Bell, did you watch the show at the time they were both on. Cricket became increasingly important as time went by. To be honest,she couldn't act her way out of a paper bag!Meanwhile Terry Lester flew the coop and did SB then ATWT. I didn't hear him savage the people at those soaps like he did with the Bells.Bergman had story at first but not like when Terry was on. Lester's popularity helped build the Abbott family on that show. If Bergman had played Jack instead of Cliff on AMC I highly doubt that Young would have had the same success.
You mentioned Bryggman. He stayed on the soap even though he knew the scripts were awful.It was a paycheck to him pure and simple. He did a good job when he acted but was more concerned with the paycheck. When P & G tried to cut his salary that's when he bolted and ran.
- Say what you want about Brenda Dickson, but Terry Lester brought out the best in her. They were a team on that show. A double act.
- Terry Lester was partial to black guys with big dicks.
- The Daytime Emmys were a joke because Doug Marland never won for ATWT.
- Heche really was great on AW. I have such a soft spot for that performance that I watch everything she does. Too bad she never got a really big break -- she's generally much better than her material. Robert Kelker-Kelly was interviewed recently and referred to Heche as "brilliant, but nuts."
- R382 Terry was gay and died of AIDS unfortunately. I don't know if he fancied Don. I know Gloria Loring did on Days and had an affair with him.DD was in great shape at the time.On the other Bell soap he looks like the son of Satan! He also seems to be affecting a Southern accent of sorts.....
Cali Timmins was so damn hot. The type of girl that I like to have a fling with. Judi Evans is the better actress though. I love the fact she still has a home on Days of Our Lives where she still gives guidance to her gay son.
- [quote] She married a much older man and had kids.
She married her Ryan's Hope Co-star
- R397 Someone should give that Bell/CBS/Sony soap a dedicated thread because this is a P and G thread.
That being said Brenda is a terrible actress but she was perfect as the sultry,campy over the top Jill. Terry worked well against her. Then again Terry worked well with almost anyone!
I wonder what places in NYC he frequented when he did ATWT? At that time many of the kinky places had closed down BUT there were still some nice places to go to.
- Exactly r383. I have always said that the tragedy is not that Susan Lucci never won an Emmy for all those times she was nominated, the tragedy is that she was nominated at all.
- Sorry - I forgot this was a P&G soap thread, not a CBS one! I'll stop from talking Y&R! Where's Eileen Fulton these days and what are the odds of somebody getting her to post with us in this thread?
- R390 I read that! Anne had an edge about her that was markedly different from the other Vicky/Marleys. She seemed to be quite touched in the head.I liked RKK in his first run on AW. He was really great with Sandra Ferguson. Though didn't he try to fuck her too?
- Terry Lester was hot n heavy with Paul Newman's daughter Susan.
- Re: the Emmys.
Prime time comedy actresses for example know who Julia Louis Dryfus even if they were never on SEINFELD or VEEP because there aren't that many shows.
But ask a daytime star who else in the business is great and they can't name anyone on their own show (not in their storyline), let alone someone on another show.
They all should have known who McKinsey was and honored her with noms, but during her hey day people filled out the ballot the same way every year -- two from their own show (including themselves) and three from other shows, usualy on their own network.
I think one year it was Ann Flood, Sharon Gabet, Leslie Charleson, Lucci and another AMC actress at the Emmys.
All fine performers, but ridiculous to have all from one network.
the ghost of Christopher Schemering
- Loved where Heche's Vicky got slapped by Donna and then SLAPPED her right back!
- r399 - [quote]You JUMPED into that SACK with your SON-IN-LAW!!!!
- [quote] All fine performers, but ridiculous to have all from one network.
Which is NBC, then CBS refused to air the Daytime Emmys, as all the acting nominees were from ABC.
It would be hosting a salute to ABC soaps on CBS or NBC!
- Somebody forgot to tell Dorothy Lyman that she wasn't playing Opal in this ludicrous scene as Gwen Frame:
- With regards to Paul Newman's daughter,could it be that Terry was on the DL with Paul? Paul liked guys too......
Sharon Gabet. It's like ABC didn't have enough of Erica Kane!Gabet was like Erica Kane Jr wasn't she? She was like a baby version of Lucci. Ironically Sky went on to play Kyle Sampson with soap diva,Kim Zimmer, then went on to work with the "real queen" of daytime,La Lucci!;)I wonder how Larkin compared working with Gabet vs Lucci?
- But she played Gwen before Opal existed
- To this site's experts,
Do you find yourselves not too critical anymore of what's left of today's soaps -- meaning, that you're just glad anything still remains?
- R404 Gwen was a sophisticated Architect.
She actually told people that Opal was sort of based on the character Ellie Jo on Edge of Night.
She she reprise Gwen on AW, it was like she was playing a bitter Opal. The entire former characterization of Gwen was tossed right out the window!
- People who still watch the remaining soaps are hyper critical. Just read the Days and GH threads and find out out certain actors/characters are loathed. It might just shock you to what degree. Another trend is the resurrection of GH. Ron Carlivati and Frank Valentini had a renaissance and now it seems they are making it mob central again!
Funny that Paul Rauch was working on bringing GL back when he died. I wonder if ATWT and GL could be brought back like AMC and OLTL were.
- I can't imagine anyone wanting to resurrect those two dinosaurs GL and ATWT. They were nursing home fodder in their final years. No one's bringing them back in any medium.
- I'd love to see GL and ATWT return from the dead. But hasn't OLTL died a second time?
- There's no reason you couldn't resurrect either GL or ATWT. You just need the right writer. GL would be easy. You just structure the show around Philip and Rick and their ex-wives and families. WT would be more difficult since it lost so much focus over the years, but I'd start with Chris Hughes, Andy Dixon, Lien Hughes, and Paul Ryan and build it around them.
- R405 The soaps that are left have been so crappy for so long, I don't watch anything but the WilSon scenes (including occasional peripheral characters like Sami and EJ) on DOOL, which I never watched before Chandler Massey played Will.
My shows were Another World and As the World Turns, with occasional long spells watching Guiding Light before 1995 or so. I gave up on AW a few years before it died in 1999.
I didn't watch most of ATWT after John Dixon's trial for the murder of Eduardo Grimaldi. I would tune in for awhile every time they got new writers or producers, but it quickly became apparent with each change that P&G or CBS wanted to make the show so bad, no one would complain when they killed it. I picked it up again when Luke met Noah in the 2000s, and watched all of their associated scenes until the end.
- [quote]Do you find yourselves not too critical anymore of what's left of today's soaps -- meaning, that you're just glad anything still remains?
I criticize, but am glad that Days is still on. My only beef with all soaps are the missed opportunities. The is so much history to be mined and so many ways to engage the audience without tricks and stunts.
A while back I was watch this great exchange between Monica and Tracey on GH. It would have been gripping drama, but they sliced it up into 7, 40 second scenes instead of writing one 5 minute scene and letting it play out.
Forget the scenes, but soaps have stopped doing the little moments and the quiet moments that define character and that everyone remembers. You don't have a Louise talking to her plants or Ada washing dishes in her kitchen dancing to a 40s tune. Soaps have lost those special touches, that made them soaps.
- Agree, R412. I think soaps started to write for the audience they wanted to have, instead of the audience they had. And now they have almost no one.
- I know they weren't hugely popular, but I liked this couple on ATWT--Pam and Beau. She was John Dixon's niece, and played by the daughter of Robert Morse, Robin. She was a cutie. Neil Maffin was hot as Beau. I think Beau was the brother of the crazy nurse wo was obsessed with Bob...
- Beau had better hair than Pam did and her hair wasn't bad.
I don't know how Rauch was going to resurrect GL.
He was great with LeMay at AW and great at OLTL, but he was only great with a great writer behind him.
He changed a lot of the GL sets overnight with no explanation as to them being updated.
When Doug Marland redid the nurses' stations at Cedars (GL) and Memorial (ATWT), he WROTE IT INTO THE SHOW.
Vanessa was redecorating at Cedars and Frank Andropolous' company re-did the place at Memorial.
You can't just change stuff and not expect people to notice.
- [quote] You know the Emmys are a joke because Beverlee McKinsey never got one, yet Susan Lucci does.
R383 wins it all.
- Nancy Marchand (Livia on the Sopranos) played Iris' socialite friend Therese who died on Iris' porch. Here are funny scenes of Iris and Mac returning from her funeral. See how she wears Daddy down? Beverlee is magic!
- Vintage clip of Lisa from January 1980, highest quality I've ever seen. Eileen Fulton looks great but I don't like the makeup!
- It was always weird for me seeing Iris and Mac as father/daughter. They look so close in age...14 years separated the actors, but it seemed even less.
- Julia miscarries Jack's baby - watch the scene with John Dixon and Carly near the end. He's such a legendary bastard.
- [quote] I know they weren't hugely popular, but I liked this couple on ATWT--Pam and Beau.
I know a woman who dated the guy who played Beau for a few months. Said he was a self centered bore, but had a huge cock and was great in bed.
I could totally see that, he has serious BDF.
FMB, by the way = Felicia Minei Behr.
- Does anyone remember the name of the young actor on either GL or ATWT who was severely injured in an accident? The last I remember reading is that he was in a long-term care facility.
- R422 I believe that was Leonard Staab. He was the second Hart Jessup, Roger's son.
He was really good, too. The tall, Phillip Spaulding-ish looking dude in this clip:
- r418, what a neat clip! The old Wade bookstore and what must have been the introduction of Nick Andropoulos (one of Kim's husbands and Steve cousin (?)).
- R423 That was Leonard Stabb actually. The Staab name is very familiar(easy to confuse) because Rebecca Staab was on GL.
- Just wanted to mention Lisby Larson, who I think is one of the all-time underrated P&G/soap actors. I found her mesmerizing on Texas as Paige Marshall. I also thought she was great on GL as Lillian's sister Calla Matthews, but the show was going through transition at the time (85/86) and the material was subpar. She was supposed to be part of a big story involving her ex, Gordon Matthews, Vanessa, Ross, and the mystery surrounding Dinah's father, but the story was shelved. Despite it all, she was quite good. I wish she'd made a bigger impact in the soap world, because she was at least as good as many of the P&G actresses discussed in this thread.
- Greg Watkins, who played Evan Walsh on ATWT, was also severely injured in a boating accident.
So sad what happened to Leonard Stabb. He was handsome, talented with his whole life ahead of him.
It surprises me he's still alive and hasn't succumbed to pneumonia or something.
- All these P&G posts and no discussion of the actor (name escapes me) who had to be taken to psych ward directly from the GL set ?
IIRC he was playing a man who dressed as a woman. He had begged JFP to wrap up the story because he was falling apart but she kept pushing the SL further and further.
He was extremely talented but gave up acting.
Years ago we had a relative of his posting on DL. I can't remember all the dish they posted but it was really sad.
- Why did ATWT stop being the Number 1 soap in America?
- R430 GH and the ABC soaps were coming on strong, with faster pace, more youth and much more flash and glitz.
P&G ordered ATWT to 'get with it' so they added a Disco set!
- The great P&G casting can be attributed to one person.
Among her discoveries were Margaret Colin, Meg Ryan, Julianne Moore, Marisa Tomei, Sherry Springfield, and tons more.
- Bridget Dobson is nuts!!
[quote]Needless to say, P&G was happy when we made GL the number one rated soap. But there was a problem: it was never anticipated that GL would or could be number one. ATWT was supposed to be #1 because of the way it was positioned in the line up, because of its time slot. It was to be the tent-pole, the lynch-pin. Years of research (and decades of storytelling) supported this. Guiding Light was, at best, supposed to be #2, in part due to trickle-down ratings theory. By bringing GL to #1 we had unwittingly sowed chaos in the corporate world. And GL was #1 for months. Executives were tearing their hair, but being careful not to let the Dobsons know of their concerns (except retrospectively). We were popping champagne corks and they were drinking hemlock.
[quote]Simultaneously, it was time for long term story projections (the bibles) to be written for both shows. Jerry and I wrote the GL story projection, and our bosses loved it. The headwriter on ATWT wrote their story projection, and our bosses felt it was inadequate. ATWT's headwriter and the Dobsons were asked to swap shows. (!) They asked us to bring ATWT up to #1, where it had been for so long.
[quote]There were money issues. And ego issues. And loyalty issues. Another complication was that the headwriter of ATWT was exhausted, didn't like the deal etc. The upshot was that, after resolving all issues, the Dobsons took the helm of ATWT, the other headwriter took over GL - but he insisted on taking a month's vacation before he worked again. So, Jerry and I wrote both shows for one month. Two hours of dramatic air time a day, approximately sixty characters, an average of 200 pages a day, seven days a week. My head hasn’t stopped spinning yet.
- [bold]FLASHBACK: A Soap Star's Tragic Flight - Leonard Stabb (1993)[/bold]
[bold][italic]A Soap Star's Tragic Flight
GUIDING LIGHT's Leonard Stabb Suffers Critical Injuries in a Hang-Glider Crash[/italic][/bold]
As an up-and-coming regular on CBS's highly ranked daytime soap GUIDING LIGHT, Leonard Stabb, 29, who plays scrappy farmhand Hart Jessup, was primed for a further career ascent. Eagerly, publicists capitalized on the strapping outdoor enthusiast's sport of choice hang gliding—a source of dream copy, they figured, that would chronicle the soaring adventures of the suds stud who regularly glides with his auburn mutt, Girl, harnessed onto his back.
The airborne hobby would indeed create headlines, but sad ones. On July 31, an almost windless day at Ellenville Mountain Flight Park in the foothills of New York's Catskill Mountains, Stabb—without Girl aboard—crashed into a tree and was knocked unconscious. Late last week, while his mother, Linda, sat at his bedside, he lay in critical condition in Westchester County Medical Center in Valhalla, N.Y., with severe head injuries. No prognosis was released by the hospital.
Stabb's gliding buddies were stunned by the accident. Hitting trees is a common mishap, says friend and fellow flyer Greg Black, who runs the Mountain Wings gliding school in Ellenville: "Nothing usually happens." A former model, the never-married Stabb has been gliding since he was 15, says Black, and "is one of the better pilots in the country. Very skilled. Never made a mistake." But Stabb's confidence led him to take risks. "He would always fly too close to everything—people, mountains—anything in his path," says Black. "We used to say, 'You've got to leave more room for error,' and he'd listen, then start overdoing it again."
On the set of GUIDING LIGHT, which Stabb joined seven months ago after a stint on ONE LIFE TO LIVE, Sean McDermott is replacing Stabb—temporarily, colleagues hope. "Everybody is just numb, just hoping he pulls through," says castmate Frank Dicopoulos, who plays Frank Cooper. Black, for one, is sure that should Stabb recover, he'll suar once more. "Playing hard," says Black, "is in his blood."
- R431 Even Edge of Night tried to emulate GH with its foreign/action adventure tinge. Unlike Days which was on another network and GH's Pat Falken Smith was at the helm to make it a successful variant of GH, Edge was on ABC after GH. As a result EON looked slapdash and cheap in comparison. It had some of the worst green screen work ever done in television!
- R429 That was Frank Beaty, who played rapist Brent Lawrence and then came back as Brent disguised as a woman, Marian Crane.
He did apparently have an onset breakdown, but that story was so batshit crazy I can totally see how. (It was somewhat interesting to the audience, but so weird and icky.)
- Frank Beaty, handsome and Quinto-ish as Brent:
- And Frank Beaty as Marian.
- Wow. I completely forgot about the Brent/Marian storyline. Good stuff.
- R430, in addition to R431's comments, CBS changed ATWT's time slot, which helped its slide out of 1st place.
- Bridget Dobson IS nuts. The writers she/they replaced was Marland..who went on to make GL number one while their ATWT languished at Number 7. They recycled the Roger/Holly/Ed storyline and obscured the Hughes so bad Wagner left. They were better the second time around but ATWT became too cartoonish and focused on Steve and Betsy and Tom and Margo and lost the feeling that Marland returned.
FB on GL could have been great but they sacrificed him for the A-M/Lucy storyline which no one really liked (making him rate Lucy so the audience would feel sorry for her.) He COULD have been a great long term villan...Ed Bauer's long lost kid with Rita would have been good.
- [quote] Ed Bauer's long lost kid with Rita would have been good.
There were rumors for years that Olivia was going to be Rita's daughter with Ed.
- Why would be the Brent/Marian story give him a nervous breakdown? It was great campy fun at the time.
- The funniest thing about rapist Brent masquerading as a woman was that it seemed to me at the time that Marian Crane was designed to resemble the sainted Maureen Bauer. It just made the storyline even more hilarious. These old clips just make me cry with laughter. I think it's real camp.
- They changed ATWT from 1:30 to 2:00 well after it fell from the top of the ratings, when they launched B&B. SFT and Capitol had been in the 2:30 slot between GL and WT. In fact, in the months leading up to the time switch WT had climbed to #2 behind Y&R, but dropped...with B&B losing much more of Y&R's lead-in for its first several years.
The changes to youth-up GL and ATWT were around 1980. ATWT moved to 2 around 1987.
- Lucinda & Susan snarkfest:
- R445 That other Bell soap was a snoozefest that made its mothership look like Gone With The Wind in comparison. No wonder it was bombing at first.Two of the worst written/directed shows in the history of daytime yet those two sleep inducing zombie fests are at the top of the charts to this day.
The P & G soaps actually had people that acted like human beings not robots or zombies.There was a comparative warmth to the shows. The actors actually injected some personality into their characters. Point in case was when Eileen Davidson was fired from the Sony CBS soap and went on to the Sony soap on NBC.Her performance was like light and day. On the Bell soap she was a glorified cameo who would sleepwalk through scenes like a zombie. On Days, she became the star actually exhibiting a personality.
- Bold & Beautiful shot up in the ratings because of Kimberlin Brown/the iconic Sheila Carter. I often wonder what would have happened if Bell had sold her to P&G. There was a rumor Sheila was going to turn up on ATWT about five years ago. Don't know what happened to that. Imagine if she'd married James, she would have been Sheila Stenbeck.
- r447, that's because the Bell soaps, at least when Bell was alive, were somewhat stylized and played with a heightened reality. Flannery compared them to Dickens novels. Just look at this promo from 1981. If Y&R tried this now, it would be comical:
- The only time I liked Y&R was when Lynn Marie Latham was HW. She got rid of those archaic touches which had become cliches, including long pauses, jarring close-ups, and scene intros focusing for a minute on a vase of flowers or whatever. She also modernized the dialogue, which the previous regime of Smith/Alden were in the process of doing. I think even die-hard Bell fans would agree that his dialogue was beyond awful.
- Enough Y&R talk. This thread is for P&G soaps. Here's a rather homoerotic Stenbeck/Dixon scene from 1981.
"Get up John! I've got the dagger right behind you."
- R450, I would [ww] you, but let's not draw any more attention to ourselves. Lynn Latham made Y&R watchable for the first time ever.
- OMG now Nikki had a kid from her time in the New World Cult? Did they ever get Peggy Brooks out of that rat filled shed?
- ATWT slipped out of # for lots of reasons; it was an older show.
Also, GH, led by head writer Doug Marland, was on FIRE in the late 70s and Pat Falken Smith picked it up and ran with it after he went to GL.
- [quote]Just look at this promo from 1981.
The actor featured in that clip is Tom Ligon playing Lucas. Last week, a DL poster claimed to have dated him ... but he or she never responded to a request for details. See reply 75 in the thread below:
- What part of 'this is NOT a Y&R thread' don't you queens understand?!
- La Liz!
- Please take Bell soap talk to the Bell soap thread.
- Here is a spectacular collection of Vicky Wyndham scenes from 1979, when Rachel and Mac were engaged in a bitter custody dispute over Amanda. I loved Rachel in the '70s!
- r457 "NOOOO! I'VE GOT CHOICES, I HAVE A CHOICE!!!" Pure genius!!!!!
- [quote] Marian Crane was designed to resemble the sainted Maureen Bauer.
Supposedly, Marian was modeled after Jill Farren Phelps.
Which makes me laugh!
- Marion Crane's "look," was a copy of JFP..who had left GL and didn't really leave behind a good feeling with the cast and crew.
The actor who played Brent most likely already had some issues (okay, throw in gossip at the time was that he and the A-M actor were screwing on the side) and he had to spend hours in the makeup chair. Add to that he was an intense actor so he would get into the part of a psycho and he just went off. It was too bad as he was off right as Lucy unmasked Marion and it was a different actor. But he did get my fave GL line of all time, when dumb ass Lucy still thought he was a chick with a crush on her, "You think I'm a LESBIAN?!?!?" Brent spat out as if that was worse then being a rapist, murderer, stalker cross dresser.
After they arrested Brent they were actually going to bring him back with the actor as a reformed person and Abbey would have a friendship with him, ala Mo and Roger.
- I don't mind talking about the P & G/Sony soap opera crossovers on CBS but the Bells are being talked about elsewhere.
James Stenbeck was he the best P & G villain of all time? Much like the villains on the semi-camp/over the top shows(GH and Days)he had a pizazz that was rare on daytime. Anthony Herrera was good for a soap actor but he didn't age that well.
Speaking of which Daniel Cosgrove (Chris Hughes) got so fat by the end of ATWT.He was so cute on Guiding Light...what happened to him? Was he eating Big Macs for breakfast? His hair made him look old too. What a waste of a hunk.
- [quote] After they arrested Brent they were actually going to bring him back with the actor as a reformed person and Abbey would have a friendship with him, ala Mo and Roger.
I'm not sure about this one R462. He'd killed Nadine and Cutter by this point.
If his rape of Lucy had been his only crime, perhaps that may have flown, but I can't imagine them having tried that by the time he was carted off.
- [quote] James Stenbeck was he the best P & G villain of all time?
- Hello? What about me?
- r462, not Rick Hearst and Frank?!!
- I loved the Victoria Wyndham clips. She was a very natural, truthful actress and those scenes with Constance Ford gives a real sense of two actresses at play in the best sense of the word. They show up the likes of Susan Lucci and Jeanne Cooper as the artificial hambones they always were.
There was definitely a West Coast soap vs. East Coast soap mentality in terms of the acting. The East Coast soaps were always considered to have had superior acting in them. However many more people showed up to vote on Emmy panel weekends in LA and they voted with their bias. I gather there were twice as many voters on each panel in LA. And that's why actors in all categories from West Coast soaps won a lot more awards than they should have.
- Cynthia Watros was mesmerising in that role! The most deserved Emmy win of all time!
- I copuldn't really watch WT its last decade unelss one of the older actors had a scene which was rare but I was pretty impressed that toward the end of its run, during the episodes dealing with Nancy's death, they showed a bronzed pair of baby shoes that had belonged to Susan Hughes, Nancy and Chris' daughter who had died before the show started.
- Funnily enough, Cynthia Watros played Vicky on AW for a couple of days when Jensen was off sick & she was awesome, much closer to Anne Heche's definitive version. I wish she'd stayed!
- One of the few flaws of the Marland era was that they made James into Hal's nemesis and John almost never played James' stories.
- Somebody commented that when Vicky Wyndham first played Rachel and the character was still a primary antagonist, she was like the Big Bad Wolf of daytime. Her face lends itself very well to menace, with the popping eyes and the large teeth. A very fascinating, even attractive face in many ways.
- And at least Cynthia Watros was as tall as Ellen Wheeler.
- Whaddya mean R473?
All them big words.....psh.
- I loved the little touches, such as the way Donna only referred to Vicky as Victoria. That was a great character thing.
There is a scene on YouTube with Rachel taking Alice's house and Alice going batshit crazy. Watch young Wyndham in that scene. She is scary and menacing in that scene. Alice didn't stand a chance.
- Yea, supposedly Hearst and Beaty.
464..yea, that was why they didnt bring him back but hey, soaps have done a lot of dumb things, they could have said he had the cliche brain tumor...(though Cutter was a non entity and Nadine, well, she was a Cooper so any murder could be excusable for that clan...)
Its a good think the John/James thing didnt go on, the Dobsons beat that to death. Plus John wasnt anywhere near Babs at that time so Hal was James sparring partner. Marland ment James to die for good which he should have.
- I loved Nadine. She was annoying at first but she'd really grown on me, her death sucked.
Lucy, on the other hand, was a wet fart of a character and no matter how many times they tried to prop her up, she was still dull as shit.
- There are some very witty Guiding Light character profiles uploaded, summarizing entire storylines. The Brent one has that Killers track 'Somebody Told Me' - such a hoot!
- The Annie Dutton profile. Wait for the action adventure music to kick in, it's a classic:
- Lucy Cooper had that synthetic Katie Couric vibe.
- R450 and R452, sure Bell dialogue wasn't Patrick Mulcahey.
It had a very specific purpose and probably wasn't the easiest to say, but the actors, God Bless 'em, made the words work and the STORIES were compelling and kept people around for a long time.
Latham's stuff (which I'm sure even die-hard haters would love to see today)was very different. She wrote the show as if she'd only be there for a short time, though.
Killing John Abbott was a big mistake. It gave the show great story for a few weeks.
Now, John appears as a ghost or figment of Jack's imagination. Since they're doing that it would have been better to have just kept him alive and limit his appearances if that was a concern.
- Patrick Mulcahey writes flawless dialogue, though it's hard with the shitty Bell show he's on now.
He wrote so many great scenes on GL and Santa Barbara. I think he wrote most of the show where Alex reads Roger the riot act. GLORIOUS.
- You people are singing the praises of Latham's 'realism' and trashing Bell, when it was Latham who created that godawful storyline of Sheila having plastic surgery to look like Phyllis (a character she had never even met) and somehow managed to have her voice as well. That was TOTAL garbage. Now, take this bullshit to the Y&R thread because we have a discussion about decent soaps going on here.
- Why was Patrick Mulcahey never appointed a headwriter position? Imagine how he could have turned around ATWT or GL?
- I'm with you R478, I loved Nadine too and was very upset when they offed her. She was an offbeat character and Jean Carol never overplayed it.
- Hilarious that GL didn't think viewers would miss Maureen -- she was Bert's successor as family matriarch.
Plus, the show had recently lost Alexandra, Blake and Mindy.
Why make it worse by losing Maureen?
I think it was to free up money to bring on Buzz.
Ironically, Buzz married Lillian in GL's final shows.
- R483, that ep of GL was fabulous. After she finished humiliating Roger, Alex turned to A-M and said something like, Let's eat. I'm ravenous.
Pure genius and Bev McKinsee was amazing. How she wasn't even nominated for an Emmy is beyond belief.
- Because Rachel's servants on AW were called 'Louise' and 'Brooks', there was an amusing misconception for a time that the silent film actress Louise Brooks played Anne Meacham's role. There was somewhat of a resemblance.
- OMG R488 I fucking LOVE you!
That's always the line I remember too. And she deserved it that year, for sure.
- The Alex/Roger scenes from the morning after are classic too.
- Bell's dialogue was very 40's Hollywood.
Liz: Jill, we need to discuss your involvement with Mr. Chancellor.
Jill: My involvement with Phillip-
Liz: Phillip, is it?
Jill: My involvement with Phillip is an involvement that is strictly platonic and is nothing for you to be concerned with.
Liz: You involvement with Mr. Chancellor does concern me Jill and we need to discuss it now, before something bad happens.
Jill: Again mother, my involvement with Phillip is something that you should not worry about. There is no involvement. But there is something that you need to know.
Liz: What is it?
Jill: Mrs. Chancellor has asked to me to leave this house and move into her mansion to be her full time companion.
Liz: Oh Child. Jill. You mustn't do it. For the love of all things holy, you mustn't do it.
Jill: Mrs. Chancellor needs me mother. I need your support, please oh please, give me your support in this.
- More so then Maureen's death, I think having Buzz Cooper and Justin Deas DEVOUR the show (and all the sets as he chewed up the scenery) was one of the main reasons GL dropped like a stone. Having that disgusting little troll horn in on Van and Billy's wedding, just as the Coopers horned in on everything (i.e. taking over Company and the Bordinghouse, moving into the Bauers for a while...) just made it worse.
I remmeber a scene where Reva, who had been in the sack with Billy, Josh, Kyle, Alan, hell even H.B. you know gave her a good run in the sheets, and then she BEGS Buzz Cooper to screw her?
- What happened to Harley Cooper in the late 90s? When she came back, it was NOT the same character.
- R456 I liked the interplay between Michael Zaslow and Fiona Hutchinson on GL. Stenbeck had more of a Bond villian quality about him like the DiMeras and the Cassadines. Thorpe was more of an asshole. What happened to MZ was such a shame wasn't it? And OLTL gave him a classier out than GL did.
La Bev was nominated several times. She just never won and that is shameful
- One thing I used to love about ATWT in the Marland era was how they would silently fade out to commercial rather than be accompanied by a big blast of music.
I remember the scene when Lily calls Sierra after running away when she found out Iva was her mother. Lucinda grabs the phone away and Lily tells her she's not her mother and slams the phone down. Lucinda just stares at the phone as we fade...
Daniel Cosgrove did get chunky at the end of GL but he got back in prime shape when he returned to AMC.
- [quote]Somebody commented that when Vicky Wyndham first played Rachel and the character was still a primary antagonist, she was like the Big Bad Wolf of daytime.
Yeah, she could be very scary when she wanted to be. I missed that part of her characterization as Rachel mellowed throughout the years, though there were occasional flashes of it -- most notably in some scenes in which Harding Lemay, in his brief return as headwriter, reestablished the Frame-Cory have-and-have-not dynamic.
And in this scene with Iris after Mac's death:
- The viewers were on Lucinda's side during that whole storyline even though she was prime to play the Lady Tremaine/Wicked Stepmother role in the Lily/Holden coupling. She's just too damn likable! Always enjoyed the scenes when Lucinda descended on the Snyder farm to enquire after Lily & acted like she was a Russian aristocrat talking to serfs!
- [quote]Why was Patrick Mulcahey never appointed a headwriter position?
Because he's smart.
- I loved Anne Meacham's overacting when I was a kid.
- Anyone remember John and Lucinda naked in the Jacuzzi ?
My mother was scandalized.
- Does Pamela Log write anymore ?
I'd like to see her back on Daytime.
- I thought they were in the jacuzzi with their clothes on? John and Lucinda existed in that halcyon time before couples' names were joined together. Jocinda FTW!
- ...must resist urge to defend Lucci...must resit...
Since this is a P&G thread--I didn't watch AW, really, until the 80s, and I loved Cass and Kathleen, especially when Cecile would come in and fuck things up. I always like V. Wyndham; her acting as Rachel was very, I guess "soothing" is the word? I'm going to have to watch some old clips of her Rachel being a bitch.
I remember Sharon Gabet coming on AW--wasn't her name like Montana Moore or something?
The other AW performer I really liked was Jane Cameron, who played Nancy--Ada's daughter, I think?
- Pam's last stint on a soap didn't end well. She's out of the game. Also, a lot of those old school soap writers have moved on to other things, because most soaps no longer do long story. Soaps are written in 13 week cycles now. No one is doing 1 or 2 year projections anymore.
- [quote]Harding Lemay, in his brief return as headwriter, reestablished the Frame-Cory have-and-have-not dynamic.
Random watching of a couple of these scenes in 1988 is what got me watching soap opera. Matthew and Josie and Rachel and Sharlene.
Remember their version of DeMaupassant's "The Necklace"? I had never read it, and the AW version was one of the most charming, most delightful storylines I'd ever seen. Still is, though I've sat through a million more episodes of TV shows in the 25 years since then.
- [quote]...must resist urge to defend Lucci...must resit...
OOOOOOH I HATE THAT NAME!!!!!
- R445, I'm pretty sure ATWT was first moved into a different time slot around 1980 or so. It must not have worked, because CBS soon put the show back within a year or two.
- R500 Yes Liz played that whole snob bit to great effect Ms Widdoes also played a good rube as well!It's not that easy to play a hayseed as you might think it is.....
As for LA Lucci vs Bev....SL was nominated umpteen times then she finally one. I always felt the message there was that they thought Lucci was just good but never great.The fact that SL hadn't won in a gazillion tries was political as well as being nominated. As for Bev, it is a shame isn't it? But these awards are bought and sold.Bev could have lost ten children on a show, had her arms and legs chopped off and recited Shakespeare on a soap ever so eloquently and she still would not have won!
- Soap opera legend Mary Kay Adams is 51 today. Happy birthday sweetheart!
- Lucci winning was a sympathy award. She got a huge reaction that night not because people were genuinely moved but because they thought 'Thank fuck for that!' because every year not winning was a humiliating experience for her.
- Maeve Kincaid is Meryl Streep's sister in law. I wonder what they talk about during holidays? Meryl: "Oh I'm getting millions for my latest picture and working with Bobby De Niro again, what are you doing?" Maeve: "I'm an unemployed soap actress doing a shitty web series with Martha Byrne for free!"Meryl:"Martha who?"
No matter what anyone says I love MK to bits.....
Oh and Nola Reardon Chamberlain/Iva Snyder is directing the aforementioned web series,Gotham.....
- Paolo Seganti is in Martha Byrne's web soap. I read somewhere that she thought he was the best kisser on the show. I wonder if Paolo ever slipped his big uncut cock into Martha? She looked like she wanted some from PS....
- [quote] Maeve Kincaid is Meryl Streep's sister in law. I wonder what they talk about during holidays?
Let Meryl tell you in her own words
- [quote]"I'm an unemployed soap actress doing a shitty web series with Martha Byrne for free!"
She's a poet AND an actress, actually.
- R517 I know,I know but she's still on Byrne's shitty web soap!;)
- Maeve. Dear, sweet, talent-challenged Maeve.
- R519 watch the clip at R516
- That clip would have been so much better if Meryl had said "My sister in law better known to you as Vanessa Chamberlain on the iconic soap opera Guiding Light"
- r151, imagine if you played a character involved in a love triangle between Paolo Seganti and Jon Hensley. You'd be skipping to work every day for heaven's sake.
- Answer me this honestly - could Meryl have played this scene any better? Tell the truth.
- R522 Nice thing was that Paolo and Jon really got along off-screen.
In fact Jon said he wished that Paolo would stay on the show forever!
- Meryl Streep has worked with A Martinez from Santa Barbara
- By the time I watched AW, Rachel was the heroine of the show. I made it through the Sin Stalker storyline but then started watching ATWT the week Lily found out her true parentage. And was in heaven the next year when Hank Eliot said, "I'm gay."
- Barbara: "Paul, you are my son and I love you but I don't like you very much right now."
Barbara to Paul after he maligned Hank for being gay.
- Streep got to work with A Martinez in a Speedo.
- Vicky Wyndham said after Harding LeMay left in the 70s, she never had a storyline again.
For over 15 years, she had nothing to do.
- I always wondered about Victoria Wyndham as a potential Dorian on OLTL. I suppose that's a discussion for an ABC soaps thread.
- [quote]Vicky Wyndham said after Harding LeMay left in the 70s, she never had a storyline again. For over 15 years, she had nothing to do.
Cue Linda Ronstadt (or Elvis C., if you must):
- R530 That would be something.
- R531 she said she had SCENES but the Justine plotline was not a storyline.
She was attached to someone else's storyline.
- W&W for r531.
- A Martinez said that after working with M, he tried to persuade her to do a cameo on Santa Barbara, but she refused. She must really look down on soaps. Poor Maeve.
- Nonetheless, and as bad as I know and acknowledge the storyline was, I got to see Victoria Wyndham act nearly every day instead of being relegated to telling Helga not to forget to use the unscented Tide because of Matthew's allergies.
- Strasser is too limited an actress to have done what Wyndham did with "Rachel." Harding LeMay even admitted as much.
- Eileen Fulton had complained of no storylines since at least the early 70s.
- Eileen segment from the Soap Life documentary:
- There is a certain cunty vibe that one needed to play Dorian. Elaine Princi had a bit of that and Robin Strasser had tons of it. Vicky Wyndham (god bless her) seems like such a sweet woman.I couldn't see her doing it. Liz Hubbard on the other hand does cunty quite well!
R524 Yeah Paolo was slipping in Martha! JH dumped her and PS took over. Before they all got married of course......I wonder if Kelley Menighan(Mrs Hensley) ever got a piece of PS as well.
- Yes, although Rachel wasn't blessed with great stories in the 80s and the 90s, she still appeared multiple times a week. I wasn't a big fan of the Rachel-Carl relationship -- and I really didn't like the faux-Elizabethan accent Wyndham adopted after acting opposite Keating -- but I was happy it kept her in the forefront. I remember her saying NBC was quite upset that network research showed Rachel and Carl were the most popular couple on the show – a 50-something couple was not the image NBC wanted for AW. But they couldn't get rid of her, she was enormously popular with viewers and P&G apparently valued her highly. I certainly would have dumped the show if she had left.
- I like how the sets in Oakdale all changed- that beautiful Hughes set with the foyer and living room was a loss, but the Snyder kitchen remained pretty much the same for 25 years, with some updates.
Before I started watching, there was apparently this ridiculously ornate living room set that Lucinda had, complete with a gold curtain at the doorway but when I started watching, everything in Lucinda's house took place in that stupid game room.
- [quote]the Snyder kitchen remained pretty much the same for 25 years, with some updates.
We had the same foil-plastic wrap-paper towel dispenser as Emma back in the '60s.
- r541, Rachel did seem to transform after her character was paired with Carl. It's like VW became more serene, floating around the Cory mansion in her white robes and whispering her lines in a soothing and sensual way! Personally, I quite liked it. She was like the White Witch of Bay City by that point - radiant, kind, personable and utterly ethereal. Angelic, even.
Wow, I hadn't ever seen that scene -- I'd stopped watching GL by that time. I did have the enormous pleasure and privilege of knowing Bill Roerick a bit (even got a tour of the GL set from him), and I imagine the emotions in that scene were very genuine -- he and Maeve adored each other.
- 545 posts and no one has mentioned me?
Denise Pence, 8 years on GL with no storyline
- No, R523, she could not have. And one more thing: Maeve is so much better looking than Meryl.
- That's nonsense. Eileen Fulton's Lisa had plenty of storylines through Eduardo's death, John's trial and John's revenge on Lisa...so 1996ish. Yes, for the last 15 years of the show, none, and for some periods here and there (particularly late 70s), but Lisa had story with Whit, Earl, and Eduardo...that no other actress of her age got, frankly.
- r510, you are right that WT was briefly moved around 1980, but only as CBS transitioned out Edge of Night (and maybe Love of Life?) and not intended to be permanent.
- [quote] Wow, I hadn't ever seen that scene -- I'd stopped watching GL by that time. I did have the enormous pleasure and privilege of knowing Bill Roerick a bit (even got a tour of the GL set from him), and I imagine the emotions in that scene were very genuine -- he and Maeve adored each other.
Roerick was a lovely old, erm, comfirmed bachelor, was he not?
- I always thought he was of that faith. There's a link on this thread to a scene with Henry, and he couldn't sound one bit more confirmed.
- It seems to be I read something along those lines. Maybe he's mentioned in the Farley Granger book.
Speaking of confirmed bachelors and soaps - where his boyfriend was the EP.
- I'm not so sure Strasser is limited.
She never had Lemay scripts; maybe she would have been great with them.
- Strasser is a fine actress. Her early 90s Dorian on One Life was gritty and sophisticated. Check out the clips. We'll never know how they would have written Rachel had Strasser stayed at AW. I think a new actress made them wipe the slate clean so to speak. Perhaps Strasser's Rachel was too defined by Steve and Alice to ever make Mac and Iris become the phenomenon that it did (as far as soap opera triangles go).
Paolo and Jon fucked frumpy dumpy Martha ?
That is mind-blowing because in their prime they could have landed the hottest women out there.
Yes, Bill was a "confirmed bachelor" (though he did tell me a story about rolling around naked with Tallulah Bankhead). His stock answer in interviews about not marrying was, "I imagine I saved some woman a great deal of trouble."
- So what soap had the most gay actors back in the day? My vote is Edge of Night...they all looked like gay porn stars. I knew they were gay before I knew I was!
- "Lucci winning was a sympathy award."
Unpopular opinion, while I think Lucci probably had a number of undeserved nominations, I do think she hit it out of the park for the intervention scene where she won. She really reigned it in and did a quiet devastation at the end, plus she was able to show off some of her comedic timing earlier in the episode.
I hate to admit -but have watched Devious Maids, and while Lucci is not always the most subtle actress, and she is using some of her Erica ticks, she is doing something subtly underneath the over-the-top part where she really does come off as someone other than Erica.
- Dark Shadows had tons of gay actors too. Frid, Edmunds, Crothers, Anthony George, Humbert Allen Astredo, Chris Bernau, Keith Prentice, Don Briscoe. Little David Henesy, who surprisingly turned out straight, was the biggest queen of them all.
- My mother said that Strasser as Rachel was terrible.
- r560=Liza Huber
- Strasser's Rachel could be one note, but there were times when she was layered.
- Wyndham played a great bitch.
When Alice was having a nervous breakdown Rachel burst into Alice's home and said I gave Steve a son! Where's the son you gave him?
Alice was whimpering and Irene Dailey stole the scene by DYING when Rachel played the son card.
- R558, I was a Daytime Emmy voter for about ten years and one of those years was when Lucci finally won. And she deserved it. Those intervention scenes were quite moving and Lucci obviously used her own experience as a mother for them. I'm still convinced Lucci (via her hubby) submitted horrible tapes for us to watch in previous years because she was riding a lucrative wave as the notorious "loser"-remember that commercial for that artificial sweetener?
Rachel and Carl on AW was beyond ludicrous-he'd kidnapped her twice and tried to have her husband Mac killed. The only way I would have accepted Carl with Rachel would be if he'd had been shot in the head and had a Regarding Henry type brain surgery where the part containing memory was totally removed.
- I'm so happy this thread has lived to almost 600.
- The new thread title should be "Does anyone else like interlocking rings?"
Somebody already started the new thread. It's called:
The new tennis pro at The Springfield Country Club
Phillip's white tennis shorts
- I think titles like that are playing with fire r567.
I think Lucci is a blast on Devious Maids. I don't see Erica at all.
- R564, I think you and I are the only ones who objected to the Carl/Rachel pairing -- which today we would call Rarl, I suppose. I even liked the Justine story more than Rarl, but I watched Rachel and Carl, because that's how much I like VW.
- But Vicky Wyndham still insists that after Harding LeMay left, she never had a storyline again.
She had SCENES, but she was always attached to someone else's storyline.
- R555 To be honest I think she screwed Paolo Seganti. A nice Irish American girl meets a passionate uncut and hung guy from Italy...she becomes an animal in bed! Byrne's not bad looking. She looks like the quiet girl in the corner that can do difficult acrobatic positions in bed with great ease. Oh , Paolo and Martha remain good friends to this day.....
- I started the Springfield tennis pro thread too early.
I hope it makes it.
Nice scene between Bert and Phillip in the hospital after her leg was amputated and he tells her about the tennis pro job and Bert says, "I bet a LOT of ladies are going to be taking tennis lessons."
The scene was so sweet.
I wonder what it's like to be that hot and that sought after.
- R573 Grant said he didn't and doesn't think he is attractive.
Growing up he was fat and the ugly duckling.
Then overnight he grew up and handsome.
But that ugliness you feel stays with you.
- I know Carl and Rachel made no sense based on history but I loved the chemistry between the 2 actors.
- Even with Carl and Rachel, Wyndham still insisted she had no storyline.
Because it was all about her supporting Carl's character.
- "I wonder what it's like to be that hot and that sought after."
I think Charita took it all with a grain of salt and never took herself too seriously.
- Rachel became the matriarch of the show, and matriarchs, while actively involved in story, rarely have real storylines of their own. Look at Sleestak.
- [quote]"LET GO OF HER! SHE'S YOUR BAAAAABY!!!"
- R575 Bingo. Keating and Wyndham had it in spades.There are some couples that work and some couples that don't but Carl and Rachel did. They even have worked on the stage together since the demise of AW. The only thing I never liked was his hair? Did he ever wash it? Or even comb it? For such a charming man he had a wretched bad hair day all the time!
- Julianne Moore's English accent is godawful in this clip. How did SHE make it over countless others?!
- Julianne recently took British citizenship in honor of her late mom who was originally from Scotland. However that doesn't mean she could do a convincing Estuary English accent!
- I loved Sabrina, even with the shitty accent.
The story about finding her was amazing.
And the Lily/Iva/Lucinda story was probably the best story I've ever seen on a soap.
- Douglas Marland was born Marland Snyder and apparently Holden was supposed to be him as a young man.
- I guess "The Red Swan" was either Mac's or Paulina's story, even though Rachel met Ken Jordan. I always thought of it as Rachel's story, though.
- Kim was Irna Phillips' most autobiographical creation.
- Close but not quite R584.
Doug's real name was Marland Messner. And Seth, not Holden, represented Doug as a younger man.
But the Messners did live on a farm - and Doug grew up on one - so the Synder family, in general, was based on his family.
- Philece Sempler as Donna Love? WTF! That was one of the worst recasts of all time on the P&G shows. That's right up there with the model who played Paul Ryan on ATWT for a bit.
- Marland's Lifetime Achievement Emmy was a bit late wasn't it? He was already several weeks dead by that point.
- r588 PS was good on Days with the whole"is she Tony's sister lover or not?" storyline. However she was no Anna Stuart. AS just had a special something when she played that character(Donna Love) which no one really emulated. Oh and she turned Anne Heche on to vibrators as well.
- R589 Do you know where the Marland tribute is in that video? The first thing I saw was Susan Lucci. The second was Barney. You know, purple Barney.
- It's a win for Linda Dano at 37:00. If you want to catch the entire announcement, it's a little before 35:00.
- Sabrina would have been more fun as an English tart, instead of a bookworm. How much fun that would have been to see her straggle into the Hughes kitchen in the morning from a drunken one night stand!
Nancy:"Oh dear, you were so tired from yesterday, what with the emotional drain of hearing the news about Lily being kidnapped for the third time this week, and the take over of Walsh Enterprises by a mysterious stranger, Iva's breakthrough in therapy and Lisa's latest unfortunate choice in hair color, that you fell asleep in your clothes..dear! Have some coffee!"
Sabrina: "Oh grandmumsy, what rot..not true. My loins were a blistering after seeing that corn fed side of beef Holden coming out of the Snyder pond, so I went and had a tipple at the pub, which turned into about 30, and a band was playing, so I went home the guitarist..."
Nancy "Oh, dear, how nice, you are taking music lessons in your spare time!"
Sabrina:"Oh I think I taught him a few things, right Mumsy and Daddy! Anyone got a smoke, I am dying for a fag and I don't mean Hank Elliot!"
As Kim clutches her pearls and Bob looks bemused.
- The Marland tribute starts at the 15 minute mark.
- LOL! What if Sabrina had been a Cockney tart?
- R589 Maureen's death did provide some exquisite ripples. Maeve Kinkead should've won (36:15).
- Thanks, R594.
- R593 I definitely detect the Marland influence in your writing!Oh yes an English tart. That's what the remaining soaps need right now. I remember when Days had two honest to goodness English girls on in the 80s and I loved how they livened things to no end.Holly on GH was another. Even Joan Collins showed up on GL. I mean how hard was it to find an English tart in NYC anyway?
- I remember watching the Marland tribute live. I knew ATWT would never again be as good (with the exception of the Lisa v. John lawsuit), but who could have imagined how bad soap operas would become?
I never thought I'd miss the 1980s.
- On to the Club:
- Thank you 598...though I think I would have been kicked out of Marland's writing room as soon as I would say, "Let's make Sabrina a boozey slut!!" I would have preferred they hired another actress, someone a little bustier and heavier and un-Hughes like, but I think JM would have had fun playing a slut.
I miss the endless exposition that Marland put into his shows, when I watched the last ten years of ATWT and GL I was always wondering how everyone knew what was going on when no one gossiped endlessly. It oddly made Oakdale seem a real place and everyone seemed connected.