It's very frustrating as feminine gay woman who is attracted to the same to see these sexually ambivalent women in the bars. Yes, I live in L.A. so they are the minority, but still they ruin the vibe. Especially when they are of the stud variety who come on to ladies like 14 yr old boys! No class, no decorum. THEY SCARE ME!!
So you think everyone should pretend to be something they don't want to be, just to conform to your standards?
Maybe they're just being themselves?
They don't owe you shit, OP.
They usually have cool clothes, the mechanic types
Maybe they don't want to accidentally attract cretins like you, OP.
They want to be heterosexual men. They are ashamed to love women as women.
Okay, if you're in LA... you don't have the right to complain. It's 10000 x worse throughout the midwest. Where the butch/femme scene is very much alive. You. Can't. Complain. Now go to [...] and count your blessings.
r6, nails it. r7, yeah I should be grateful!! I loathe the butch/femme dynamic
[quote] Especially when they are of the stud variety who come on to ladies like 14 yr old boys! No class, no decorum. THEY SCARE ME!!
There's a subset like this. I was seated at a bar talking with a friend and I felt someone light kicking at the base of the stool. I ignored it at first and it continued. I looked back and a woman dressed very much like a 14 yr. old was doing it. I said something like "oh, sorry, do you need more room?" moved the stool forward and continued talking with my friend. I didn't have a clue it was a sign of interest until my friend told me. Seriously? It's like pigtail pulling in the third grade.
r21, sorry for that experience. I think we femmes need to shun them completely
"They want to be heterosexual men."
No, they want heterosexual men to stay away.
r24, if they hate men so much, why dress and act like them?
Many butches seem like they are misogynistic
r14, it's not acting like a man!!
The misogynists are the ones who think all women should be required to look and behave a certain way so as not to offend their delicate sensibilities. OP, you sound like a narcissist to the extreme.
No, I am a woman who loves being a woman. from dress to mannerisms, and I am attracted to ONLY straight acting and looking laDIES
R25, they don't hate men, you insecure idiot. They're indifferent. If that means 'hate' to you, you need therapy.
Is this about male privilege? And why are you queens so obsessed with this?
They aren't going to change for you any more than you would be willing to go butch. The sooner you accept that and get over it, the better.
Too often, the gay community seeks to copy the heterosexual model of sexual and social practice. I believe the sexual norms within mainstream gay culture betray the true bond between two women -a bond that often goes beyond what is displayed publicly for fear of shame and misunderstanding.
r30 is male wanabe dyke!!! GROSS
We do not reject our femininity. We reject the objectivity.
Some of these ladies do appear to desire to co-opt misogynist straight male though. I know we all want to be kumbaya and accepting but there is a difference between truly butch women who are more comfortable in male clothing/style and the wannabees that OP is talking about. The straight guy wannabees truly think they have a cock. They want their women to be their possession and behave as some stereotypical guy from the 1950's. Those are the one's who are truly ridiculous b/c they are in DRAG. Meaning, they aren't behaving as who they truly are, they are taking on a FAKE role and that's why they come across as fake and annoying to some women.
My best friend has always dated butches but her girlfriends have all been very cool, fun loving honest women. Even they comment on the fake wannabees who try to be all master male b.s. Even the butches pick up on those fakes.
r34, oh the irony! Yet bulldykes objectify feminine women in the bars constantly!!!! Hey, most gay women are attracted to WOMEN!!!, not some insecure male fearing dyke!!!
lesbians who conform to old stereotypes tend to be of the lower classes. Is this true for fag homos as well?
I don't know if it's a rejection of their femininity as much as it is an embracing of their masculine side. I am in between butch and lipstick and I envy the butches in that they seem to have much more confidence in approaching women whereas the lipstick lesbians are way too shy about it. I'm on an online dating site and 99% of the women who contact me are butches, even though I've stated in my profile I am not attracted to butch women. My friends who are butch, however never seem to be lacking from attention from lipstick lesbians. It's very strange and frustrating. However, if you ever talk to a butch, you come to realize pretty quickly that they are all bravado on the outside and are VERY insecure on the inside.
But I don't get it either. I am attracted to women who look like women.
I'm a lesbian. Most people say I am not obviously gay. I guess that means I don't have gay face. I feel like a feminine woman but put me next to some of my girlfriends and I look downright butch. I am glad I don't feel the need to squeeze my feet into narrow six inch heels. I don't squeal over a pair of Jimmy Choo shoes or whatever and I'm fine with that. I'm glad I am comfortable in a simple blouse and pants. I wear lipstick on occasion but am not afraid to leave the house without makeup.
I don't wear men's clothes but I understand the appeal of them. They are comfortable, stylish and affordable. Go to any department store and just compare the men's and women's departments. Why do I, a woman, have to wear a fucking shirt with a three-quarter inch sleeve? Why is that better for women than a regular short sleeve? Not long ago, I could buy women's shirts with normal sleeves. I want a regular shirt, dammit. Every season, there are a million various styles that women are expected to adopt. Men have a pair of pants, a shirt and some shoes.
And let's not even get into the way clothes are sized. I bought three pair of pants today, each of them different brands and different sizes. Something tells me men don't encounter these issues.
I am thankful that our community consists of women who don't look alike, who are comfortable pursuing their own style choices and aren't ashamed to be individuals. Maybe one day, some of you will learn not to be so judgmental.
R40, what's the problem? bulldykes is okay and fags isn't?
" My friends who are butch, however never seem to be lacking from attention from lipstick lesbians. It's very strange and frustrating. However, if you ever talk to a butch, you come to realize pretty quickly that they are all bravado on the outside and are VERY insecure on the inside."
EVERY lipstick i KNOW is repulsed by butches! I believe they are VERY insecure and probably post on anonymous boards how much feminine clit they get!!!
Until the lesbian community rejects the butch/ femme paring, MOST lesbians will remain in closet
I truly believe that most butch lesbians had horrible mothers who were cold and did not bond with. This is why they reject and HATE anything female
And I should add, it's ok if you aren't attracted to butch women (or femmes). But you don't have to hate on them and diss them for the choices they make. Like you, they are entitled to express their personalities through their clothing, hair, etc.
Have you ever noticed how the world treats women who cannot help the fact that they have masculine features? The world is really nasty to people who don't, or can't, conform.
Not everyone is born looking like Cindy Crawford. Most people try to make the most out of what they've got. And I applaud them for that. I wish more lesbians and gay men embraced and supported people in their community. It's hard to be gay in this world. Let's not be against each other.
Is the CK1 era Jenny Shimuzu considered butch? Because she is hot
The world also treats women who don't 'fit' the norm for that particular culture in shitty ways too, so it ain't just about being masculine.
In SOME parts of the US fat girls get crapped on, older women are seen as undesireable, women of color don't get play or aren't seen as attractive (happens in the lesbian community), being a woman who doesn't want kids, yada yada and the list goes on. Folks are just uptight about people who don't fit certain expectations. Men have the same hassle. Tis life.
r47, it's about SEXUAL attraction! Being gay means being attracted to the same sex!!!
There is nothing more feminine or beautiful then two women discovery their female bodies together
You asked why - probably for the same reasons they like women - there's probably something biological and genetic behind it. Gay men have the same problem except reversed.
r53, the prime example of what is wrong in gay community
r53, so being gay has to do with wanting to be the opposite sex? Gotcha!
The new femme on femme ideal arrived with the popularity of straight pornography. I can understand why a broad wouldn't want to have to get all dolled up just to get laid by another chick. All that teased hair, heavy makeup and wearing heels to bed just to share a dildo seems like a major hassle. I think it's fascinating that some lesbians have bought into the straight male ideal of what they should look like as sex objects.
r56, the epitome of UGLY and MAsculine DYKE!!
r56, most women gay or straight love to impress and dress for that success with other women.
I was watching 'Windows' this morning starring Talia Shire and Elizabeth Ashley. In 1980 femme lesbians were portrayed as psychopaths. But then again Talia was flat chested with a pageboy hairdo and she got the guy in the end. Perhaps 'Windows' is why some people question the validity of lipstick lesbian pairings. That and the fact that lipstick lesbians tend to dump their mates almost as often as their alleged orientation. This is what wisdom I have gleaned from People magazine and the movie 'Windows'.
It's very frustrating as feminine straight woman who is attracted to men to see lesbians in bars. Yes, I live in L.A. so they are the minority, but still they ruin the vibe. THEY SCARE ME!!
R56 is most likely a guy.
What if they don't really have any? Better to just butch out, but with mega style
r60m NOT IN THE LEAST!!!
R55/R57, why don't you go fuck off to LChat. You'd love it there. You sound like you're trolling.
r64, you sound like an angry emasculated dyke!!!
LOL @ R56
Welcome, time traveler from 1950.
I totally agree with R56
The younger set are striving toward a porn-influenced idea of what "feminity" is - it is actually a (lower) class give-away as much as the extreme butch look.
I think women can look attractive in a range of looks. I don't get worked up about it.
I actually like the androgynous look the best.
r66 is awesome
You know who is really awesome?
r8. Who is also r10, 22, 23, 25 26, 27, 29, 32, 33, 36, 37, 40, 44, 45, 46, 50, 51, 52, 54, 55, 57, 58, 63, 65.
r70 rocks the universe!!!
R70, I am proud of my posts
I want r41's phone number.
BECAUSE OF DADDY
OP, butch lesbians don't reject their femininity. They are just naturally masculine in the same way lesbians(butch or femme) are simply not attracted to men. Why do you think these women are simply faking a masculine persona.
protection---they want to repeal men
It's sexually AMBIGUOUS, OP. Not "ambivalent." Learn the difference.
No, gay man with a basic education.
Well, everyone else has been too polite to say it, but I'm in a mood and don't give a fuck:
OP, you are an ugly, ignorant, worthless twat.
You are stupid, idiotic, clueless, retarded, AND dumb, which is truly an amazing feat for one as dim-witted as you.
You are pathetically ignorant, and utterly lacking in empathy or consideration for anyone else's feelings or value system.
In short, you are a rancid fucking cunt and I hope you die in a fire while eating a bag of dicks that are vomiting pus-filled acid into your eyesockets.
r80=angry British lesbian
I SCREAM WITH ANGRY POWER AT THE RAPE OF MY BOUNDARY!!!!!!!!!!
OP IS A PENISED-PERSON PENNING MISOGYNIST MOLOTOVS OF RATFEM HATE!!!!!!
PENIS-IN-VAGINA (PIV)-CENTRIC WOMYN APPEARANCES ONLY SUPPORT MALE POWER AND FEMICIDE!!!!!!!!!
I SEIZE AT THE ROOT THE VERY FOLLICLES OF THE PATRIARCHY!!!!
HAIRY MUSCLED SISTER ARMS SIGNAL OUR MIGHT!
THICK SHAGGY LEGS STOMP TO THE FIGHT!
O' TUFTED KNUCKLES!!! O' FURRED BACKS!!!
O' WOMYN BRISTLES WAVING LIKE SHEAVES OF WHEAT IN THE WINDS OF CHANGE!!!!
THESE ARE EVERY WARRIOR WOMYN'S RIGHT!!!!!!!!
What the hell R82?!
"feminine gay woman" Aren't all women feminine, except the ones who take steroids wanting to transition from female to male? I'm old fashioned and like clear gender roles. If you're a woman, gay or straight, leave the sports jacket and corduroys at home, please. If you hate your gender, opt for a sex change, than you.
I like the angry British lesbian!
r80, get the sex change op already!!
OP, the lesbians who reject femininity are rejecting societal norms for how society thinks women should look which entails certain restrictions that are imposed on the looks of women.
They also reject their feminity because they identify more strongly with men than women.
Fran Lebowitz is hot, actually
r88, if that is the case, why do they hate men? also, if you really want to give a big FU to patriarchy, being a feminine woman who is not attracted to men would be ideal! I do not have men issues thank God.
Just know that dykes who want to say "ha ha men we hate you and want to look and dress like you" are NOT ATTRACTIVE to women who are same sex oriented. I have never heard a young lesbian say "Eww straight girls! give me a mannish dyke any day of the week"
"They also reject their feminity because they identify more strongly with men than women."
Then become men!!
On the lighter side, R42, I recently found out that Jimmy Choo makes some boots that those who don't like heels would be interested in. They might not be feminine enough for our dear OP...
I love boots and jeans! I even love to play softball. Many straight girls are the same
Op if you think you have it bad, try living in England where even the straight women look like dykes!
BTW Which state has a more femme gay scene? New York?
I would say NYC and California and possibly Chicago.
sadly, r94, feminine dykes hide
r82, lots of caps and exclamation marks in a misandrist posting like that is the hallmark of the late, long-gone poster known as pussylips, not Nan Michiganwomyn.
I thought there were a lot of lesbians that looked like straight women in London.
r97, there are actually! The best place for femmes for femmes is Australia
R82 All they said that medical marijuana doesn't induce paranoia and insanity. Well I guess your post certainly proves otherwise.....
r99, I believe r82 was being facetious. Get a sense of humor lesbo
What is femininity, said Pilate, washing his hands.
Nothing is more threatening to a bulldyke than a feminine woman who does not want a stud!!! Watch the ANGRY MAN come out
Come on bitch, cut these tits OFF!!!
A lot of lesbians don't seem to care about hygiene either.
If you're a lesbian, I assume it's because you like women sexually. So why do so many lesbians pretend to be men? They dress like men, walk like men, wear their hair like men, get tattooed like men, act aggressive and stupid like douchebag men. The whole point of being a lesbian is liking WOMEN, not women pretending to be men. That whole "butch" and "femme" thing never made sense to me.
r106, me too
R106, the lesbians you see at bars represent about a third of the whole. That's being generous.
R108 not where. I am at. Are you a flamer man
Being gay is not about being attracted to the opposite sex! Think about it
OP aka LipstickLes(and all your rx posts) you really need to get some help. You are obsessed with butch dykes, why do you give a fuck?
R111, op is just expressing what many womanly dykes feel
r112, the OP is obsessed with the topic. She or he is clearly unbalanced.
What R113 said.
I'm a very femme lesbian and so is my best friend and both of us have had relationships with butch, femme, and soft butch women. Femininity is a -spectrum, like masculinity. I have aesthetic preferences, like everyone else, but they're not about behavior in that sense. What a weird topic. The OP sounds like a clueless straight guy trolling.
Isn't anyone else sick of the constant masculine/feminine battles here? It's not just boring, it's kind of embarrassing that gays seem to be obsessed with gender expression, when we should be the most open-minded about it. Who cares, live and let live.
Your sex is a physical fact. Gender, however, is a social construct.
There is nothing about a pink nightgown that is inherently "feminine." There is nothing about a pair of steel-toed boots that is inherently "masculine." These are labels that we in this culture put on things/characteristics.
Most of you are well-traveled enough to know that European men look (for want of a better word) kind of "faggy." I mean, the first time I went to Europe, I thought about half the men were gay. So the idea of "masculine" and "feminine" even varies from culture to culture.
In my home culture, deep in the heart of farm country, most straight women with a passel of children commonly wear no makeup, have short hair and short nails, and have a whole closet full of flannel shirts. They can go out and shoot a buck, dress it, and put it up for the winter. And they're straight, have many children, and go to church with their husbands every Sunday.
I've said this here before, but one of the things that makes me crazy is shopping for a pair of glasses in a shop that has signs that say "WOMEN'S" and "MEN'S." What makes some glasses "men's"? Is there a place for a penis? And is there a bra attached to "women's" glasses? If they fit me and look good on me, they're women's glasses, because a woman bought them.
And as for you "femme lesbians" bitching about "butches," this is self-loathing and homophobia of the worst order. This is you saying, "But I'm a NORMAL lesbian -- I don't look like those BUTCH woman!" I got news for you, sisters: there is no such thing as a "normal" lesbian. And with all the hangups you bitches have, if I had to pick out the closest lesbians to "normal," you snotty butch-hating femmes wouldn't even come close.
And as for you gay men, why do you think that you're the ones who get to judge what is "masculine" and "feminine"? Seems to me you're the wrong people to ask in the first place.
This is Feminism 101, people. I'm sorry you missed out on its beginning (I was there, thank you), but please try to catch up, OK?
W&W for r116. That was one of the best posts I've read on DL.
In the meantime, I need to get off this site. It seems like a lot of posts are written by personality disordered individuals.
R116 is mistaken for a man all the time. Feminazi 101
I agree op! I am a gay lady. I am attracted to women, not some mannish dyke
Come on, let's don't trash masculine women. Why we should that? It's like trashing feminine men for what they are. Get used to it. It's not something out of this world. That's how it goes.
r20 there is a lot of trashing of femme boys here.
Femme boys and butch women should get the correction
Femme gals for other femme gals are TRUE lesbians
I have found them to be misandrous. Gay men may have a horror of sex with women but generally lurve women. The former often connects to feminism. The latter are often unaware of their patriarchial attitudes while trying to be fabulous. I don't know which is more tiresome.
I sometimes wonder if maybe there are in fact more transgenders than actual male and female homosexuals.
R116, lots of gay men don't know much about women. They get their info from old movie clothes and porn.
R125, SO TRUE!
Luckily it's slowly changing
[quote]Maybe they're just being themselves?
Maybe they're mentally ill.
not all lesbians do
I know r12. I am feminine and so is my gf
I'm not attracted to it but to each their own...
Tried hanging out with a group of butches once and they acted like frat boys. I felt out of place.
Yep! Bulldykes are Neanderthals
The masculine/feminine divide is the biggest chasm and controversy in the LGB community, male and female.
I love you r116!
Yeah because we are tired of gays emulating heterosexual relationships and gays taking on the looks and mannerisms of the opposite sex
R116 is no doubt a MANish dyke!
I adore elder lez. OP is a moron.
r139, MANY people are agreeing with me
That's because MANY people are self-loathing conformists who buy into the same homophobia and gender panic that you cling to. Not because of any central truth to your lunacy or groundswell of support for your regressive, reactionary social views. MANY people agree with you because MANY people are just as damaged as you.
What's sad is that most of those people are ignorant, straight rubes who don't know any better. That you come to a gay website and spread this garbage as a self-identified gay woman is even more embarrassing and pathetic. For you, of course.
Thankfully, with improving acceptance rates and increased access to mental health services, your side is losing a lot of traction. Maybe one day you'll wake up to that and realize how counterproductive and misplaced your gay-on-gay hate really is.
But I doubt it. You sound really stupid.
r141, Touched a nerve huh MAN?
Thankfully, with improving acceptance rates and increased access to mental health services, your side is losing a lot of traction. Maybe one day you'll wake up to that and realize how counterproductive and misplaced your gay-on-gay hate really is."
LOL yeah that is why Masc. for Masc. only is the new normal for gay men!! FUCK YOU
R141, you are not a masculine gay man! Not with that rant! oH MARY
Trolldar is fun on this thread. Go ahead, try it.
go try on your new dress flamer
Please never stop posting. You undermine yourself with each new response.
extreme irrational hatred for men causes SOME dykes to get even by dressing, walking aND acting like the men they despise.. Total insanity!
R150, TROLLDAR is not your friend.
Whatever happened to classy, headstrong, iconoclast, timeless lesbians like Kate Hepburn?
There are more truly feminine openly lesbian women than truly masculine openly gay men.
Whatever happened to classy, headstrong, iconoclast, timeless lesbians like Barbara Stanwyck?
My take is based on wondering why so many gay men (more when I was growing up than today) seem to reject their masculinity. I came to the conclusion that when some people realize that their lives are not going to fit the conventional molds that they had expected, they cast about for a new stereotype to adopt, and behave in accordance with that, rather than coming up with whoever it turns out they are.
Because the radicals in the community want you to reject your gender! The number one reason most gays will not come out. They can't relate to the fembots and bulldaggers
[quote]If you're a lesbian, I assume it's because you like women sexually. So why do so many lesbians pretend to be men?
To score with women, duh. They are not trying to attract themselves.
What R123 said.
I don't mind a little/some tom boy, but butches are just ridiculous.
If they didn't reject it, they'd be called straight.
R158, if that were the case , I would be straight and find a REAL man ! Got it stud?
Femmes for femmes
R160, so you equate being gay with emulating the opposite sex? So we are all just latent trannys huh?
Let me guess, you are butch right?
Butchy femme is my favorite type of woman.
I like classy ladies, not some lowlife man wannabe
Sure, R165. Now let me guess, you're male, right?
Lol no feminine gay woman who prefers the same. Are you a bull dagger?
Sure, some lesbians reject femininity, but those who don't are often not believed or thought to be lesbians. We're everywhere.
Men "reject" shit all the time and it isn't considered a thing. When men get fat and sloppy and walk around in diaper-dangling cargo shorts and tube socks with oversized t-shirts, are they considered to have rejected their adulthood and masculinity? That's what it looks like they're doing to me. When 20-year-old hipster dudes wear skinny jeans and grow their hair long, which I think looks attractive, they're not exactly exuding masculinity.
I bet there are as many men, especially young men, who look androgynous or feminine as there are lesbians who look masculine.
R167? Would you like it if I called you a nelly cocksucker?
I agree OP. Live and let live and all that, but it is depressing to be surrounded by butches and I won't fake being happy about it.
I tried to force myself to date one, thinking "all cats are grey in the dark, she's still a woman even if she doesn't want to be one". But she had weird hangups even there (I wasn't allowed to please her, I was out of there like a shot).
Just be yourself, and try to do the best you can. Believe me, I know that can be hard.
I have ZERO attraction to masculine women
Everything said by the gay and lesbian posters trashing androgyny has been said by our straight enemies. These are their exact same ideas. You have the same exact comfort level with gay people as an ignorant straight. Wake up and get your shit together.
OP, I agree. I live in NYC. Come visit, and we'll have a weekend of marathon fucking and drinking and the occasional good meal.
r177, sounds like a plan to me :)
Bump for feminine ladies
Holding hands in public- do you ever get homophobic comments, or do people still not believe you are dating?
Even straight women hold hands
Only if they are Japanese.
Let's do it, r178. First Annual NYC Femme Lesbian Fuckfest. Anyone have Gillian Anderson's contact info?
Had I rejected my femininity, would I be sitting in the U.S. Senate?
Why do so many DL gay men reject masculinity and mainstream manliness?
I'm another feminine lesbian who can't stand butches.
There's an old myth out there that ONLY a butch-femme female couple "works", yet I see butch-butch pairings out there; femme-femme ones are harder for me to identify as specifically gay.
I love jokes and love all kinds of humor, but the anti-women/anti-lesbian trolling here really didn't need to be bumped.
I don't know why that myth exists because it's not true. Quite the opposite actually.
Most butch/femme pairings I've seen consist of one gender confused butch who is always afraid that her femme partner will leave her for a man, and one femme with low self esteem who used to be straight but is now tired of men and thinks a butch is the solution to her problems.
It usually ends with the femme going back to straightville.
Butch/femme couples are also much more common among the lower class.
As a gay man, I find this thread fascinating and somewhat depressing. I don't really get it. If you don't like a butches, don't fuck them. Why do you have to feel such a repulsion toward them? This dynamic is too similar to all the gay men who feel disgust toward male fems. Great, they don't attract you sexually, but why have such a visceral negative reaction? What is really behind that?
I've known some super butch dykes and some really fem fags who were some of the kindest people in the world. I didn't need to have sex with them to appreciate them as human beings.
So many straight people seem to be feeling more comfortable with masculine/feminine these days!