Israel Admits Ethiopian Women Were Forcibly Given Birth Control Shots
This weekend, a report revealing that African women immigrating to Israel were subjected to mandatory contraceptive injections, effectively amounting to forced (if temporary) sterilization made global headlines.
Some 130,000 Ethiopians, most of them Jewish, live in Israel. The community experiences higher poverty and unemployment rates than the rest of the country’s Jewish population. In the past decade, the birth rate among Ethiopian-Israelis has declined by at least 20 percent. Advocacy groups now claim this decline is the result of a birth control regimen forced upon Ethiopian immigrant women.
According to an article in Haaretz, an Israeli news source, one Ethiopian immigrant said that the doctors who injected her claimed that “people who frequently give birth suffer.” While it is possible, if highly unlikely, that doctors genuinely had the women’s health in mind when they forcibly injected them with contraceptives, there is no excuse for depriving women sovereignty over their own reproductive choices.
Israel has acknowledged the issue (without admitting any wrongdoing) and has vowed institutional changes in healthcare for immigrants. By decree of Israel’s health minister, gynecologists have been ordered “not to renew prescriptions for Depo-Provera for women of Ethiopian origin if for any reason there is concern that they might not understand the ramifications of the treatment.” Still, intense scrutiny should be applied by women’s groups and international organizations to make sure these changes are implemented in full. Moreover, more attention must be paid to the plight of vulnerable African immigrants around the world.
That Israel should allegedly engage in this activity is particularly shocking, considering the practice was widely used by the Germans throughout the Shoah. While the scale and effects of these operations cannot be compared, Israel’s implicit intent to limit ‘burdensome’ (read: undesirable) portions of the population recalls the dark eugenics experiments of World War II.
Immigration, legal and otherwise, is a difficult and invariably sticky issue for developed nations. Israel, like the United States, has struggled to find a way to secure its borders and its population while dealing with a constant stream of immigrants from neighboring countries and, increasingly, the African continent. While admitting the difficult security issues that Israel faces, the international community must loudly and unanimously rebuke the systematic violations of human rights inflicted on women immigrants of African origin.
From a sociological perspective, this incident shows the strain between Israel’s religious heritage and its modern political agenda. “Behold, the heritage of the Lord is sons, the reward is the fruit of the innards. Like arrows in the hand of a mighty man, so are the sons of one’s youth. Praiseworthy is the man who has filled his quiver with them,” the Torah proclaims. The involuntary sterilization of African immigrants suggests that the Jewish moral code (inextricably connected with Israel’s domestic legal codes) can be selectively applied to those with ‘desirable’ backgrounds. It is hard, indeed almost impossible to believe that an American Jewish woman immigrating to Israel would be forced to take birth control.
A datalounge thread critical of Israel or Jews? This will be deleted in 3...2...
Well if anyone knows about enforced sterilisation it's the Jews.
I bet Michael Lucas finds this to be absolutely acceptable.
Isn't it ironic?
Jews are such disgusting people.
if this is true, why not just deny them entry into the country instead of using inhumane birth control methods on this particular population. I would think that Israel would be grateful to any Jewish persons seeking permanent residency to help increase their numbers.
This is really messed up if true.
Israelis using Nazi policies against scapegoated ethnic minorities? Shocker.
r9, Go riot with your fellow Muzzies in Egypt
Because the Russian trash going to Israel is quite the improvement, eh, R10? All on the dole and violent. Israel is a mess, honey, and Palestinians have nothing to do with it.
R10 A great many Palestinians are Christian. Read a book, will you?
r8, the problem is actually the Israeli government's own making.
The Ethiopians have a tenuous claim to Judaism, but Israel wanted the PR. The Ethiopians wanted out of a famine prone country under dictatorship, and took any out they could.
Now, the Israelis realized their mistake; they couldn't deny the initial claim, so they came up with an alternate solution to limit numbers.
Operative word being "solution."
Israelis are racists. No surprise.
DL, The Ethiopian Women come from a culture where it is the norm to be continuously pregnant until they die. Who takes care of their existing babies, when the women already live in poverty, and can't possibly support the kids they already have birthed? What happens if their husbands abandon them or become disabled or die?
Force is never a good thing but neither is non-stop pregnancy. Both the mother's health and the kids suffer. It's almost a blessing when the mother becomes infertile early. It least she won't die young.
R12 What 10 percent are Christian at the most? That's a minority. The same number of Copts in Egypt and we see what's happening with the burning of churches and the killing of Christians by the Muslims there. There are .70 percent(not seven or seventy but.70) of Christians in Gaza because all the Islamic fanatics are making their life a hell there.
Well, when you put it that way R15, those Ethiopian Women should be grateful to Isreal for doing them a great service. /sarcasm
Are you a fucking sociopath?
Also, if you don't think this is racially motivated, you are out of your mind.
Over 83,000 Ethiopians were air lifted to Israel at a tremendous costs. They were then given food, shelter, clothing and medical care. The women were not sterilized, tortured, or killed, so why the comparisons to Nazi Germany?
DL fairly insults Mrs. Duggar who has 20 kids, because she doesn't believe in birth control. She's lucky she didn't die in child birth, like so many around the world have done for centuries, before reliable means of controlling contraception was available. Should these Ethiopian mothers be allowed to give birth until they die an early death?
r17, FWIW, Jews are bigoted towards other Jews.
Not denying they're not racist, but in fairness, bigotry seems to be part of Israeli culture, even amongst themselves.
The whole Ashkenazi/Sephardic snobbery is still there.
R16, don't you even attempt to compare what goes on in Egypt to Palestinian Christians/Muslims. You don't know shit about it - I do. The biggest problems facing every Palestinian regardless of religion has always been Israel. Always. They don't give a shit what religion Palestinians are and your attempt to lie about it won't work. Jews don't give a shit when Palestinians want to celebrate Christmas in Bethlehem. They purposely keep them from getting there, so fuck you and your attempt to show faux concern for Palestinian Christians.
Are you Coptic or Jewish? Because either way, you're a fucking liar. If you're the former, get yourself a mirror because no attempt to distance yourself from Muslims will ever change the fact that you're still viewed as a "sandn*gger" to the rest of the world. Get over yourself.
Israel is the only country in the ME that has better gay rights than even America. But, that should not matter right?
R17, Anyone who allows extremely poor women to have an unlimited number of kids, without breaks to let her body heal between each pregnancy, is IMHO morally wrong, and giving the mothers a death sentence. Like in the US, the most educated and wealthiest Israelis tend to have the fewest number of kids.
The only 35 women who were not sterilized but given birth control shots weren't childless. Who is going to pay for their increased medical costs, due to wearing out their bodies with repeated births, and additional babies? Are you familiar with Israel's welfare system, and it's financial limitations? Is it better to allow them to have unlimited babies and let them all starve?
If Israel had not covered the expenses of transporting them out of Ethiopia, where hundreds of children die daily of disease and malnutrition, what chance would those mothers even have?
Look, the world is being destroyed by overpopulation, and it's uneducated third world people leading us there by having 15 children each. These women weren't sterilized they were given BIRTH CONTROL. If someone recommended forcing birth control on white hicks in the southern US, everyone here would be for it.
R17, Re your claims of Israel controlling the number of kids very poor, immigrant Ethiopian mothers are allowed to have as racism, please read this Israeli news article, It verifies that 1/3 of Israelis now get welfare. There is a demand that the ultra-religious who have relatively large families, and are generally of European, White ancestry, be cut off financially.
Because most of the above have roots established for years in their community synagogues, that will provide them with jobs and emergency food and clothing, they are in a far better economic position than the Ethiopian Jews. Most also have extended families to care for their babies, in the case of severe illness of the mothers. Economic abandonment by fathers is almost unheard of. In the case of death, a new husband will be arranged.
Still the article verifies that the Israeli government is concerned about their economic viability which is why they're drastically cutting down aid to families. At least they're not demanding the Ethiopian women have abortions.
R23, I agree that the trend of fundie mothers, inspired by the Duggars, to be continuously pregnant and have as many babies as God will allow, should be stopped, especially if they are not economically and emotionally able to really provide for their babies. Shocking that the FLDS, where girls start having babies as young teens, have such a high rate of infant mortality, as if in reality they're unconsciously practicing infanticide.
The issue of very poor women having huge families is not racial but economic. Why is it that the most educated and wealthiest around the world have the fewest number of kids?
I think this is a great idea. I believe that no one - rich or poor - should have more than two or three biological kids. If you want more than that - adopt.
And as someone pointed out, these woman weren't sterilized - they were just given birth control. I think they should do this here in the US. You want public assistance? Here, take this shot.
[quote] The Ethiopian Women come from a culture where it is the norm to be continuously pregnant until they die.
And that is part of the reason Ethiopia is the way it is and has so many problems. You can not advance as a country unless you have half way proper access to birth control
R26, I agree. Most fundies are against adoption. If the baby isn't 100% White, who would they marry? Fundies don't allow interracial relationships.
The leaders of the movement, like Gothard, also preach that personality is mostly inherited. Like the Chinese, who lose a single son, and don't consider adoption a choice, the question becomes, "what is the character of the baby's parents?"
Yet the Extreme Orthodox Jews who cannot be drafted are encouraged to move to settlements on the borders and breed as many children as possible.
R13, your post is the first I've ever read about the Ethiopian Jews having a "tenuous claim" to being Jewish. I'm not trying to argue, just asking for more information. My understanding is that there are lots of ("real") Ethiopian Jews.
I'll admit that when I first read this story, I assumed quite quickly that racism and classism on the part of the Israeli government created a perfect storm caused this compulsory contraception program to be created. Would be happy to be wrong, though.
R29, Did you read my link from the Israeli newspaper in R24? There's a total reversal of policy, as Israel a few months ago, is cutting off subsidies to all with large families, purposely targeting the Ultra Orthodox.
By the way, from Day 1, most Iraelis think that the very religious ones are a little "out there," comparable to how Americans view fundies.
In 1991, the infant mortality rate in Ethiopia was 114.5 per 1000. In Israel, it was about 8 per 1000. With much better health care, the babies that would have died in Ethiopia would live in Israel, but the Ethiopians couldn't even conceive of that (no pun intended).
R32, What was the life expectancy rate of mothers in Ethiopia? How many surviving babies dies of hunger or disease later on in their childhoods?
That's what makes me so mad about the quiverfull families. If it's God's will to have unlimited pregnancies, then why is man (and woman) so focused on improving pre-natal care, child nutrition, education, and child development? Do the quiverfull families really want to go back in time before modern medicine?
R31 interesting article. But it still holds true that the zealots are breeding on settlements and inmune to the draft forcing the secular population that is drafted to fight their battle for them. They are a much bigger problem then the Ethiopians. While not the same thing their are clear parallels with Nazi tactics of both forced sterilization of Jews and encouragement of German's to have large families.
That's so mean. I'd rather be told I'm not wanted and to go elsewhere than be secretly sterilized. It's doubly sad because Ethiopian Jews are some of the oldest Jews on the planet. Rumor has it they hold the Lost Ark.
I find it incredible that anyone would even suggest what Israel health authorities have done is acceptable, let alone that it be practiced here in the US.
Since its creation Israel has stood behind the right to return and allowing the Jews who ancestors were victims of the Jewish Diaspora to come home. Included were the Ethiopian Jews. The 'limited ties to Judaism" argument is brand new - and contrary to government's position.
What exactly is that argument anyways? You can return but just how Jewish we think you are will determine how many children you can have?
57% of the prescriptions for Depra-Provera in Israel were written for Ethiopian women - who represent less than 2% of the population.
I also don't see how you can draw comparisons between very recent methods the Israel government has used to mainstream the Ultra-Orthodox community to the state sponsored covert birth control program.
There is a huge difference between limiting the amount of state aid healthy employable people can receive and the coercion/lack of consent in the birth control program.
Of course this is about race and power. Changes in the way the Ultra-Orthodox are treated only happened when their political party no longer had seats in the Israeli parliament. Guess who never had a political party with representatives in parliament? That's right Ethiopian Jews.
They were given birth control, not sterilized permanently.
I'm not condoning it but let's get the facts straight.
R34, R35, R36, Why do you think that it is moral to allow women to severely risk their health and have non-stop pregnancies, when they're already economically destitute and without marketable skills? Do they have extended families to provide assistance? How many babies should they be allowed to conceive, and other Israelis required to financially support?
They're being pressured to space their children, not enduring forced sterilization or expected to get abortions. How could anyone compare this to Nazi Germany? By the way, I've read reports of German and Austrian women pressured into having multiple babies that they could not afford, as single mothers. They stated that they were victims as well.
The vast majority of Israelis already use birth control, as advised by their doctors and because they follow societal norms of relatively small families. There is a serious lack of space and resources in Israel.
By cutting off the ultra-religious from financial subsidies, the Israeli government is sending a very clear message to please limit births, if they're not economically viable.
But Ethiopians probably NEED large families to make up for the high infant mortality and to tend the herds and the fields. It's just bigotry to suggest that their wanting many children is some kind of character flaw of the black race.
They probably needed large families in Ethiopia. They don't in Israel. No one is suggesting a character flaw. It's the way clans survive in a lot of places in Africa. White people did the same thing in Europe in the past before modern health care.
R39, It's not bigotry or a character flaw, any more than it would be true of quiverfull families, many of whom live on small farms, who also culturally believe in huge families.
I'm stating that times have changed. There isn't a high mortality rate limiting population in Israel or the US. Very economically stressed families cannot handle a continuously pregnant mother without serious harm to her existing children, or to each mother's physical and mental health. Post partum depression increases with every child, especially if they're spaced too close together.
You do realize that many families, who don't use birth control, in some way practice infanticide by letting disabled kids die, perhaps by inadequate care, don't you?
R38 They were given birth control WITHOUT CONSENT as a government policy based on race (or country of origin) aka Eugenics.
more palpable form then Nazi tactics sure but still Eugenics.
R42, Would it be better to have let them die in pregnancy? Who would have then cared for their surviving kids?
They were given birth control based on the fact that they were living in a crowded refugee camp, and didn't have the means to support any more babies. Once they became economically viable, the temporary birth control could have been cut off.
Why should they be allowed to have an unlimited number of kids, play Russian Roulette with their lives, and make other Israelis permanently support them and their subsequent kids?
Should they be allowed to have 20 kids, if half of them would likely be disabled, by not being properly spaced? Israel does not allow infanticide, common in Ethiopia, because of inadequate medical care. They would have arrested the mothers and taken away the kids. Would that have been better?
Yes it's a dirty secret in the world that infanticide and killing disabled children is still common. Sometimes it's just due to lack of adequate care, other times it's more intentional. Either way it places limits on huge families.
[The biggest problems facing every Palestinian regardless of religion has always been Israel. Always]
Ditto. Israel is a god awful place. My cousins (western European non-Jews) grew up near Haifa. They couldn't go to public school because all the little Israeli Jews stoned them. They were obliged to go to French schools. Even they are appalled at the mistreatment of Palestinians. They got the fuck out of the country asap. The greatest common denominator between the Palestinian people is Israeli brutality, not religion or anything else.
R44 what part of they were given this without their consent do you not get? It is not up to you or anyone else to make that decision for them. And as far as having more kids than they can take care of? I wonder, do you have the same issue with the white Hasidic women who have a baby every year and have to depend on government assistance to survive?
DLers are sympathetic only to issues that concern white gay men (and to a lesser extent, attractive white straight men).
If this news story had been about forced sterilization on those two groups (particularly, the former), the thread would have reached hundreds of posts within hours, complete with teeth-gnashing, hand-wringing, cries of oppression, and the gay card being played until it was dog-eared.
Its time the US cut off aid to Israel. They have had 60+ years to make it on their own. They brag about how strong their economy is, yet they always have their hand out.
Instead of worrying about the Ethiopians, Israel should concern itself with its skyrocketing Haredi numbers, who will soon be (if they aren't already) 40% of the population. Cutting subsidies wont change much because the culture is built on a religion that cannot change. This is what will eventually destroy Israel, not Palestine.
Thanks for today's Jew porn. We've already done the Ethiopian birth control thing when it was news. We already called it sterilization and compared it to the Nazis even though the DP shots are reversible and last just 3-months. Never mind that the women complained of "intense pressure" to take the shots, not force.
And what does it matter that the study conducted by the Knesset Research and Information Center could not confirm that the women were given the contraceptive shot Depo-Provera without their consent, as Haaretz reported. The word "admits" works just fine.
There no point in worrying about facts in Jew porn.
Whats your point R50? That because this was discussed before it cant be discussed again?
To add to r20's post, the Israeli government has a long standing policy of destroying Christian archeological sites. They use excuses like 'development' or claims of Jewish remnants on the same site.
American Christians will deny this, but it has been witnessed by many reporters and writers, including William Dahlrymple.
The Pentagon loans them money to buy weapons, and Congress then forgives the loan. Why is this done? Because they do other things besides buy weapons with the money. Once they bought Rev. Falwell a Learjet, meaning it is a way for the Pentagon to interfere in American domestic political affairs using Israel as a foreign front. So the Pentagon can say, we didn't give money Israel did even though the money came from the Pentagon, was disposed as directed by the Pentagon, and Israel never paid them back.
And that my friends is why Israel is never brought to book by the USA. Because Israel has been a partner of decades of criminal interference in American domestic affairs by the Pentagon.
r11 is absolutely right.
The US public is not allowed to know the truth about Israel, particularly the weapons dealing and global organized crime. Leftist Israelis have long complained about internal conditions.
The Christian right doesn't want anything to interfere with their apocalyptic worldview, and the US government doesn't want attention on the fact that the US sponsors OC through aid to Israel.
The fact that Israel allowed the white supremacist South African government to have nuclear capabilities is also not discussed.
Israeli elite/leadership are sociopathic loose cannons. The situation with the Ethiopian women is probably the tip of the iceberg.
R46, Of course I think that Chassidic women who have a baby every year are dangerously tempting fate, and so is everyone else that thinks that non-stop pregnancy is healthy for women. Nor do I think that kids should be relied on to raise their younger siblings, unless it's a real emergency, and not just a selfish mother. Any medical doctor or psychologist will tell you the exact same thing.
All the Israel supporters need to go jump in an oven.get off this site.
R48 Damn right - cut off USA aid. I was sitting in an outdoor café on the Red Sea and those bloody Israelis were laughing while a USA freighter unloaded all kinds of aid. They kept saying things like "stupid Americans," "welcome to the 51st state" etc.
R55 Very clever, but not clever enough. You really didnt answer the question. Do you think Chassidic women should be pressured by the government into taking birth control against their will? A simple yes or no will do.
R52, If the Palestinians had their way, how many Christian archaeological sites would remain? I'm clearly opposed to all historic destruction.
R53, R54, The sharing of secret info between the Israeli Mossad and the US will never be fully exposed. The latter historically has relied on the proximity of Israel to collect massive amounts of info, including on the Russians, through their proximity, and their access to Russian and Arabic speakers. Mossad has also trained Special Forces, after winning in hand to hand combat.
I will never state that everything Israel does is right or fair. I do know that we'll never know the whole truth.
R56 - please go take a walk on W24th St.
R58, Not trying to be clever at all. Since Chassidic women listen to their Rabbi, I think that the government should really do a hard sell to convince him of the realities of the situation. Then I would find an ultra religious doctor to explain to the women why they were seriously endangering their lives.
If they refused to listen, I wouldn't want their blood on my hands. So yes I would forcibly give them birth control shots, to space their children, and to possibly limit the number of unhealthy children being born. Without warfare, Israel is running out of room and resources.
[quote]Israel is the only country in the ME that has better gay rights than even America. But, that should not matter right?
Nope. You don't get a medal for not killing gays. That doesn't absolve you from killing other people, or doing horrible shit to them, and that goes for both sides. You don't get a pass.
It's amazing that that stupid piece of land is getting so many people killed because they think it has mystical powers. The Krazy Kristians is the US believe that the End of Days is going to happen there. The Pentagon is a fundie sanctuary.
Now, we have pastors being brought up on human rights charges due to funding gay annihilation abroad.
I'm so fucking sick of religious freaks.
The problem is, they don't let us non-Israeli/Muslim/Jesus lovers out of their stupid wars.
Israel, London, USA. Destroying the world. Amoral, neoliberal asswipes.
This thread is intriguing, mostly because there is never any mention of men practicing birth control, or being required to do so.
Are you new to the planet, r65?
Yeah, sometimes I think I am, R66.
I know men can't be trusted with something that important, but I keep having to relearn it.
This thread is a perfectly example of why I find fellow gays to be such pigs: you defend the Palestidiots - WHO WANT TO KILL YOU!!!!!, while spewing your hate at the ONLY mideast country with LGBT. You mud-slime blowing cunts are worse than Log Cabin republicans and deserve whatever homophobic hate crime you receive. Hitler's little human condoms.
R68, perhaps they wouldn't want to kill us if we would stop funding Israels terrorism against their people.
The Israel government isn't reducing aid to the Ultra-Orthodox because they have concerns about their health or well-being.
The aid is being reduced because, along with many other sever budget cuts, of Israel's financial crisis. Israel has serious financial problems - if they don't change direction they could be the next Greece.
Time will only tell if this year old policy is temporary or not.
Neither this policy nor the budget cuts has anything to do with concerns for a woman's health.
There is no reason to think the Ethiopian women were giving informed consent when they received the shots. A nurse admitted this - when she didn't know she was being taped.
The supporters of this practice reek of racism and classism.
This is really shocking and depressing.
Women prone to have non-stop pregnancies should be given birth control, regardless of ethnicity or religion.
What's OC, R54?
Aren't the orthodox or whatever women living in the disputed territories having as many babies as possible in order to help secure those lands? How would it be they were forcibly birth-controlled?
I wonder why this hasn't gotten more play in the media?
"I wonder why this hasn't gotten more play in the media?"
Gee [r75], why do you think?
Because the self-appointed chosen people of God will do anything to downplay their own ignorance and bigotry in the court of publc opinion.
Why do you think little is mentioned in the news about the jewish mafia, which easily surpasses in violence and drug/human trafficking anything the Italian/American or Russian mob is capable of?
I'd love to see the reaction here if the US or NY government started forcibly giving birth control to all those Orthodox and Hasidic families on welfare here.
But since Israel did it, you praise the system, because obviously the government knows what's better for these women and their uneducated, backward ways.
Quoted for truth R11.
The point is why would Israel buy a plane for Falwell. The answer they wouldn't. The Christian Right in the USA is highly anti-semitic and while some of them pretend to support Israel for end time prophecies to function, most barely hide their hate.
The only fundies to really help Israel have been the Plymouth Brethren or Darbyites, not coincidentally, heavily represented in British intelligence. The PB have such a tiny presence in the USA they generally aren't even listed and most Americans have never heard of them.
But turns out they have some very prominent members....
blacks can't be jewish
and there is nothing wrong with this
R74, Ultra-Orthodox women have large families to replace those lost in the Holocaust, who were their relatives.
R70, I'm well aware that the Israeli government is changing their policy on subsidizing large families because of economics. My personal focus is on women's and children's health and well being. Any doctor or psychologist will agree that the entire family suffers when women are pregnant every year.
That's why birth control methods were developed centuries ago, and many men are unfaithful. Yes even the super religious men of the world see others.
R77, Actually I believe that anyone who is on welfare in the US should forcibly be given birth control shots or sterilized, until they are economically viable and physically and mentally healthy. I also am very against any religion or philosophy that seriously impairs the health of women and their families by encouraging non-stop pregnancies.
Again please understand that the Ethiopian women already had children, were living in refugee camps, did not have community members able to care for their existing families, as do the ultra-religious, and already had been given thousands in aid dollars to leave their home country and inevitable early death for all.
R74 - I don't really care what your focus is. The issue is what the focus of the Israeli government is.
Clearly the very recent changes in state aid to the Ultra-Orthodox has nothing to do with women's health. Nor does it have anything to do with reducing family size. It is about preventing the interest on Israel's debt not going higher than the current exorbitant rates.
You claim that " Any doctor or psychologist will agree that the entire family suffers when women are pregnant every year."
Not show any of those doctors who have gone on record saying using coercive methods and/or not receiving informed consent from a specific segment of the population is acceptable.
R81, There are many Black Jews, and I'm not speaking of converts. All Jews in Africa that can prove their religious heritage are given a free pass to emigrate to Israel. That is a massive and expensive undertaking, considering the language and cultural barriers.
I don't think that it's right that the Viet Namese, who came to America after the war, experienced racial prejudice and even violent attacks. I really respect those that started their own businesses, against difficult odds. Now how would Americans feel if those that were still on welfare started having babies ever year and huge families that they could never hope to help support?
r79, the Israelis are very pragmatic. They know if the truth was known about their activities, they would face public scrutiny and the possibility of decreased US aid.
This is especially true in a recession economy.
R85, I have never claimed to speak for the Israeli government. IMHO it is not responsible for any nation's leadership to allow it's economy to risk ruin, unless there is a real emergency, like unexpected warfare or environmental disaster.
For the Israeli leadership to do everything in it's power to reduce the number of people on permanent welfare, no matter the possible worldwide condemnation, or the perceived attack on long held beliefs because of culture or religious views, is to be admired.
Furthermore if you anonymously poll doctors and psychologists I will guarantee that the vast majority would forcibly give desperately poor mothers with kids birth control, especially if it were the only way to ensure her long term survival.
[quote]For the Israeli leadership to do everything in it's power to reduce the number of people on permanent welfare... is to be admired.
So they should also be doing this to the Hasidim, who have tons of kids and are all on some form of public assistance.
But they dont, and you know why they dont.
[quote]Now how would Americans feel if those that were still on welfare started having babies ever year and huge families that they could never hope to help support?
You just described the Ultra-Orthodox in Israel. They don't start their own businesses; they don't contribute anything to the Israeli economy. They don't even serve in the armed forces. You are a pathetic hypocrite.
R85, Not trying to derail this thread; just trying to convey reality. A doctor for the local county hospital explained why he quit at a relatively young age. Seriously injured gang members were regularly brought in and allowed to die, after being given heavy duty pain meds, rather than being given expensive life saving treatment.
The reason given was that the state couldn't afford their permanent care, nor were there family members to help someone confined to a wheelchair. Too many victims had ended up committing suicide anyway.
In sum doctors around the world have to make hard moral choices. Those with money, family support, and other resources have always gotten better medical care.
R79 - Who claimed you were speaking for the Israel government?
You have to admit to the obvious problem with your position that doctors would condone a medical practice in an anonymous poll which they would never publicly support?
You're also ignoring the part where this wasn't a practice employed with all desperately poor women - it was a practice used only on Ethiopian women.
Which pretty much puts an end to what you are claiming is an ethical practice.
You also seem to be missing the point that what the government did wasn't within their legal authority. Which is of course why they have stopped.
You do know that you can support Israel, or any other government for that matter, and not have to agree with everything they do?
We are in serious trouble if the only solution to poverty is put women on birth control without their fully informed consent. (Which would of course include all the possible side effects - were not talking about giving these women an aspirin while they aren't looking)
R92, The medical establishment is already "playing God," and has for many years, and will likely continue to do so. Also if you think that the elderly without financial resources don't live anywhere near as long as those that do, you are sadly mistaken. I pity the very poor in nursing homes.
Please read the blogs of ex-quiverfull daughters of what happens to mothers when their religion demands constant pregnancies. Far more serious medical consequences than the minor effects possible from taking birth control pills.
The more kids a very poor women has, the greater the likelihood of family violence, and child abuse or neglect. There is a direct correlation between physically abused kids and the incarcerated.
You claim that we are in serious trouble if we essentially save families by forcing the very poor to temporarily use birth control. Do you think that anyone should be able to father multiple children without paying anything for their support, and letting the taxpayers pick up the bill?
Shall I link you the thread I started on the young men that have fathered 26 kids, by many different women, and never gave a dollar to any? Even if the US had unlimited wealth, IMHO sperm donors should be forcibly sterilized after not supporting the first 2 kids. Not one mother should be allowed to have 10 kids while on welfare.
All religious theocracies, including Israel, will probably collapse under their own weight due to the fact that RELIGION IS SUPERSTITION, and that SUPERSTITION IS NOT A VIABLE LIFESTYLE.
Now, that's not to say that one cannot be Christian or Jewish or whatever and still maintain a good life.
But whole societies built on superstition fail, read up on history people.
Gore Vidal was right when he outed monotheism as the blight of humanity. One God fucked it up for us. "God" is a shithead who causes pain and suffering.
The US was a better country when it was less fundamentalist, and anytime you see grown men walking around in funny "holy garb" you better believe that culture is fucked up.
Ethiopian Jews probbly have closer genetic links to ancient Israel than most Askenazis.
Why weren't the men subjected to birth control treatment? So Ethiopian men can go around impregnating others with impunity and that's OK?
R96, Have they ever developed a birth control pill for men? Besides sterilization and condoms, are there any alternatives?
You mean a vasectomy?
R84 - you're kind of over the edge.
Since Welfare Reform there is no place in the United States where a women can stay on welfare long enough to have 10 kids.
Just out of curiosity did your work in the Reagan administration - may share myths about welfare queens?
You honestly don't see the ethical and moral lines you are crossing when you trick women into going on birth control?
You don't see the ethical and moral lines you are crossing when you put a woman on birth control without her performed consent?
Fortunately for most of us we have the US Constitution to protect from folks like you.
R99, Lifelong moderate Democrat and always thought Reagan was a very poor choice for a candidate, until the Repubs actually came up with far worse choices.
I've known many who've been on both sides of the welfare dept in 2 states, and have heard countless stories. I've had personal experience listening to many dozens brag about scamming welfare. I've gotten nowhere reporting the fraud; welfare doesn't want to hear about it.
Also I keep up with the news, and have linked a few stories for DL of welfare kings as well as queens. IMHO even one is one too many, considering the number of severely mentally ill and homeless veterans without assistance.
I'm afraid you're totally delusional if you really think the US Constitution protects the huge number of poor that have died because of inadequate medical care. Friends who are doctors have told me many, many horrendous stories.
All would have given those desperately poor Ethiopian women birth control, firmly believing that they were saving their lives and those of their existing kids. What would have happened to them if the Israeli government said that they could no longer afford to give them financial or medical aid?
R99, For just one example of women having huge families, all on welfare, please start reading about FLDS, and "bleeding the beast." I can't believe that you actually think that Welfare Reform has eliminated massive fraud.
There are huge numbers of baby daddies having multiple kids with different women and all are on welfare. Just google the subject, and you'll come up with a few examples.
The US Constitution is only effective if you can afford a lawyer. Please get real.
[quote]Ultra-Orthodox women have large families to replace those lost in the Holocaust, who were their relatives.
So you're saying black jews don't count in this replacement scheme?
[quote]"I wonder why this hasn't gotten more play in the media?" Gee [[R75]], why do you think? Because the self-appointed chosen people of God will do anything to downplay their own ignorance and bigotry in the court of publc opinion. Why do you think little is mentioned in the news about the jewish mafia, which easily surpasses in violence and drug/human trafficking anything the Italian/American or Russian mob is capable of?
Or perhaps because it isn't true and isn't news. OP is bringing up a story that was published months ago. You're just so eager to have an excuse to bash Israel that you lap it up like freepers lap up Rush.
Ethiopian Jewish women did not have a culture of continuous pregnancy. You believe any racist shit that someone posts?
The third world mentality of having as many children as possible is a huge drain on the resources on the earth and countries like that U.S. that have to provide aid to make sure these people don't live horrible, wretched existences (even though the aid mostly gets picked up by warlords and NGOs that drive around in Range Rovers and do nothing but drink and fuck). I'm not saying what Isreal is doing is right, but this is an issue that nations have to deal with when facing an influx of immigrants with the mentality that it's important to have many, many, many kids.
That is not their mentality R105. Stop talking about things you have no knowledge of.
"Infant and child mortality
Nearly one out of 10 babies born in Ethiopia does not survive to celebrate its first birthday. Under-5 mortality is also high: one out of every six children dies before the fifth birthday.
. . . births of order seven and higher suffer higher mortality. Short birth intervals significantly reduce children’s chances of survival.
Maternal deaths accounted for 25 percent of all deaths to women age 15-49—that is, one out of four Ethiopian women died from pregnancy or pregnancy-related causes.
Ethiopia has one of the highest infant and child mortality rates in the world. It is attributed to high morbidity leading to death
from potentially preventable or treatable childhood diseases."
[quote]I'm not saying what Isreal is doing is right, but this is an issue that nations have to deal with when facing an influx of immigrants with the mentality that it's important to have many, many, many kids.
You just described the white Ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel. Why aren't they being forcibly given birth control shots?
White Ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel have huge families but they have low infant and child mortality because they receive welfare and medical care from the government.
Looks like Israel is playing games with everyone's fertility.
Just to be clear, no one was forced. It is not the case that they were given these injections deceitfully, without their consent, being misled into believing they were just inoculations.
Haaretz says the Ethiopian women were "coaxed" or "strongly convinced" to have the Depo-Provera shot, not forced. The idea that they were given it without their knowledge springs from the testimony of a few women who simply said "they weren't aware the shots were birth control". That could be attributed to these individual women's lack of understanding or confusion, says Haaretz, since "the vast majority of the Ethiopian women who received Depo-Provera were aware it was birth control and received it willingly".
My reference to the US Constitution was in reply to the suggestion that men who have two or more children they don't support be sterilized.
I'm tired of hearing these anecdotal completely without sources stories about welfare fraud. It is why I made the reference to Reagan. He made up the Welfare Queen - she didn't exist.
Of course fraud is a problem - in the public sector and the private sector. We have public information on Medicaid fraud - but we don't have complete information on medical insurance fraud in the private sector. It exists, some speculate at greater rates than Medicaid fraud.
Like many fraud protection programs the questions at what point does prevention become more expensive than the fraud itself. Preventing or catching all fraud in the public sector would cost more than it would save.
It's called risk management.
None of that justifies a government program aimed at one class, race or culture. A program which puts women on birth control without their informed consent.
It is remarkable to me that there are people who don't see not only the immorality of the program, but also the slippery slope it puts society on.
What's next? Should we consider refusing smart, healthy and employed women the right to have an abortion.
"Sorry you have an IQ of over 120 and a job with health insurance - you have to carry your baby to term and raise it. We need more smart rich people." "But hey here is an unemployed Ethiopian women with no children - we will keep slipping her birth control and make her work for you as a nanny."
R109, Wrong. The ultra Orthodox have lower mortality rates than the Ethiopians because they have established a strong community of mutual support and relatives that offer care. Also the government has begun pressuring them to have fewer kids, starting with limiting subsidies for large families. Expect to see further changes shortly.
R113, How can you be so incredibly naive? Did you even read my last post? Have you ever read any books by former FLDS members of how huge communities survive, all on welfare fraud?
Why are you justifying massive welfare abuse, that I have personally witnessed? So what Reagan made up stories about welfare queens. The truth is those that run welfare are so incompetent and corrupt, and of course I have personal knowledge, that they could care less about enormous incompetence and waste. It would be very easy and cheap to limit fraud; there is just no motivation.
[quote]Expect to see further changes shortly.
You mean like forcing the ultra Orthodox to get off welfare, get jobs, and serve in the armed forces?
You seem to be an expert. How many years were the ultra Orthodox allowed to be on welfare and exempt from serving in the armed forces? Please be honest.
R113, Please give me an estimate of how many thousands of Americans have died prematurely because of their lack of adequate medical care, due to poverty, such as those in charity old age homes. Then lets talk about the rights under the US Constitution.
Would the US be willing to cover all expenses in transporting perhaps 100,000 Ethiopians, knowing full well that many of them would never become employable? Then stop criticizing Israel for being racist.
[quote]Would the US be willing to cover all expenses in transporting perhaps 100,000 Ethiopians, knowing full well that many of them would never become employable? Then stop criticizing Israel for being racist.
How many white ultra Orthodox Israelis are employable? Very few, since they spend their entire lives studying the Torah instead of getting an education and working for a living. This is one of Israel's biggest problems, but you simply choose to ignore it.
R118, Excuse me? I've repeatedly said that I applaud the Israeli government for stopping the subsidies to the ultra Orthodox with their large families. They also should not be exempt from the universal draft, unless they're willing to be military medics or perform a non-combat role.
I do feel that they are employable, as obviously they're literate. Very religious Jews in US work.
Please answer my question. How many years were white ultra Orthodox Israelis allowed to be on welfare and avoid military service? Thirty years, forty years, fifty years? You must know, you are just too embarrassed to admit it.
Being able to read and write does not make you employable. You need practical knowledge. The ultra Orthodox do not like being around secular or even conservative Jews, which makes for a very uncomfortable workplace.
R120, I was reading and posting in other threads.
The correct answer is "too long," even if it was only a relatively short period of time. Glad the Israeli government is finally taking action.
Being literate does make you employable in many jobs. Shall I list them for you?
The ultra Orthodox have a choice to work alone, or almost alone, with others of the same beliefs, or adjust to an "uncomfortable workplace." Countless numbers have had to make major life transitions in the past.
[quote]Demographics suggest their ranks will expand much faster in the decades to come, with an estimated 32 percent of all Jewish children who started school in Israel last year going to Haredi establishments — most of which barely teach subjects such as math, concentrating instead on the Jewish scriptures.
[quote]"The fact they don't serve and they don't work is starting to be a real problem for the economy and for the unity of Israel," said Ofer Shelach, another Yesh Atid lawmaker, whose secular background is more typical of the party's electorate.
[quote]"If we don't prepare them better, our workforce will be ruined," he said, arguing that getting more Haredim to serve in the army was a good way to teach them new skills that would eventually help them find jobs.
The Haredim are problem, not the Ethiopians. You are simply too dishonest to admit it.
R113 When you have a government policy that is directed at one particular race - and not applied equally to all residents - it is racist.
It is classic racism.
R115 - you have absolutely no evidence of massive welfare fraud. Of course ironically the cases of welfare fraud you point to are cases which have been investigated. You have absolutely no evidence to support your conclusion " The truth is those that run welfare are so incompetent and corrupt, and of course I have personal knowledge, that they could care less about enormous incompetence and waste."
R123, Exactly what cases have been investigated? Why do you keep making absolutely ridiculous accusations? I have plenty of evidence. I've spent hours at different times trying to report it, and was totally ignored and blown off. Government officials just don't want to know the truth.
I've also discussed the extreme inequities with very frustrated medical personnel, truly needy (especially former military) who can't get any aid, while others brag about scamming the system.
Why does almost everyone in FLDS receive welfare for life? How are teens allowed to claim status as single moms, when obviously they have a regular sex partner, and live under his roof, along with other women of all ages, also receiving permanent aid?
R122, Issues with both the Haredim and the Ethiopians, which are potential drains on Israel's economy, must be solved. At least the former have community support; that doesn't excuse inherent problems. By contrast I'm sure that the Ethiopians would be willing to serve in the military.
The Haredim will destroy Israel long before the Ethiopian Jews, Israeli Arabs, or even the Palestinians. Religious fanatics are despicable and dangerous, no matter which religion they belong to. But feel free to continue living in your fantasy world.
If you have evidence of welfare fraud, why don't you share it with Republican politicians? I'm sure they would love to clean up the problem.
R124, I don't know what makes you think that I support the Haredim. I've repeatedly said that they should not be exempted from some form of military service, even if it's non-combat, and that they should not receive subsidies for having large families, in part because it's extremely unhealthy for the mothers, and therefore sexist. Apparently neither you nor R125 are carefully reading or comprehending my posts. Why not?
R125, Do you have any names in particular of those that have the power to take action on the specifics of welfare fraud that I've encountered?
how dare you write something negative about Israel! This thread will surely go down.
what else would you expect from the Israeli govt? and we are here funding those terrorist.
aww, the poor jews begged the moderator to block the word.
First the Israeli government has to force the Haredim to integrate with Israeli society, then the Haredim have to accept integration. I won't hold my breath waiting for either to happen.
Contact any Republican Senator or Congressperson. They would love to hear your evidence of welfare fraud.
R124 - there were Senate hearings on the subject. Arizona and Texas investigated. Are you really claiming the FLDS have such political power that state and federal governments bend to their will?
Is the Israel government tricking the Haredim into serving in the military? Is the Israeli government tricking the Haredim into changing the standards in their schools? Is the Israeli government tricking the Haredim into turning down state aid? Is the Israeli government setting a different standard for receiving the Haredim to receive state aid?
Is anyone claiming the way the Haredim are being treated is immoral, unethical, illegal?
The real issue with this controversy is that these Ethiopian women were given birth control shots WITHOUT their consent.
Sirenomelia, alternatively known as Mermaid Syndrome, is a very rare congenital deformity in which the legs are fused together, giving them the appearance of a mermaid's tail.
But they never gave them the AIDS, did they. Amazing how you'll dump on them for this temporary thing but rationalize killing people with the AIDS.