Well, there you have the difference between a bitchy closet queen in Prada pumps, and a humble straight man who's secure in his sexuality.
Now that's pretty amazing. He has been a pleasant surprise in other ways too. I hope he is protecting himself. Some of those cardinals are capable of anything if they think their power is slipping. And this new Pope has definitely pulled the rug out from under them. But this Pope has caused more changes for the good in just a couple months. And yes - there's still a long way to go.
I agree he is far better than what's been there before. But what he is essentially saying is that it is OK to be gay and we should be accepted, however, we cannot apparently be sexual beings.
Very big deal. That and the fact he wants a bigger role for women. Feel like your headline downplays this. First time the highest level of Catholic leaders have signaled a major sea change on how they will look at these issues.
He needs secret service instead of those Swiss dudes. He will be disliked from within. Those Opus Dei whack jobs are nuts. ex. Mel Gibson.
Francis, gurl, you in danger!
Actually, he's the FUCKING POPE. That's who.
What does this Pope guy know? He's just a man in a dress and imposter heels.
Compare him to that piece of shit Russian patriarch, who claims that gay marriage is a sign of Sodom and Gommorah and that the Apocalypse is coming.
Shame Francis doesn't want to be truly radical and accept women priests, however.
[R3}, with respect to the priesthood, none are supposed to be sexual beings, whether homosexual or heterosexual. He was discussing gays in the priesthood. his response is a stark departure from his predecessor who opined that there should not be gays as priest, whether sexually abstaining or not.
This is radical stuff...this guy better watch his back.
It's quite obvious the only reason the Bible says anything against gays is because when it was written, for all purposes a "practicing" Homosexual didn't not produce children. And for any Religion, Cult, Group or Hell, Camp Fire Girls Troop to survive, you need only one thing,... MORE members. Same as with masturbation. If it doesn't produce children i.e., MORE, they are useless. When the Church finally admits this, because with today's medical science and Surrogacy /Adoption laws, anyone can have a child, it will be settled.
But no equality for you ladies. And don't bring it up again!
I wouldn't take too much away from the comment. It's acknowledging the reality of a majority of the priesthood and Roman Curia are gay men. He's trying to heal the inner divisions of the Church, which Benedict was unwilling and unable to accomplish.
He is not accepting gay men who are sexually active as part of the flock.
That's true, r15, but it's interesting the way it's been reported, whether he intended that or not. Also, I don't know what he said in Italian, but the English translation quotes him as using the word "gay", which in itself is progress from "homosexual".
There's a long way to go, but this is a tiny crack in the wall of Catholic church bigotry.
WOW... I never thought that I'd hear those words coming out of a fucking POPE. He is single-handedly rescuing the catholic church and pulling it out of the swamp it had been sinking in for so many years. I also loved seeing group of fat bishops squirming in their seats while the Pope told them in their face that he did not want bishops with the "mentality of a prince", that they should embrace a life of poverty and be out on the streets helping the poor. I am now a huge fan of this Francis.
[quote]But he condemned what he described as lobbying by gay people.
"The problem is not having this orientation," he said. "We must be brothers. The problem is lobbying by this orientation, or lobbies of greedy people, political lobbies, Masonic lobbies, so many lobbies. This is the worse problem."
Nice equivalency there. I am not a fan of this pope.
r6, r12 You both are 100% right. I hope he has some trusted men in his inner circle to keep him safe. I'd hate for him to wind up like JP1. That said, I'm willing to give the Pope his honeymoon, as we give many elected officials. Let's see what 6 months, a year down the road brings. He's off to a good start. Here's a vote for female priests, the number of priests is rapidly falling, they have got to do SOMETHING positive, and allowing women to be priests would be a major step. I WANT this guy to succeed.
He seems a genuinely humble Pope more concerned with poverty than going on a crusade against homosexuality and abortion. He was mobbed in a slum in Rio a few days ago and seems to have the 'common touch'
I wouldn't get the warm fuzzies too quickly. This is just PR for the Catholic Corporation to enhance it's image, pure and simple. The Catholic religion has caused more harm and hurt more people "in the name of God' than it has EVER helped. It is a horrible company to work for. And yes, I say COMPANY because it really IS one in terms of its goals and the way it is run. FUCK every one of them.
21 Before welfare and government funded schools and healthcare, the Church was the main provider of charity for the poor, schools and hospitals etc. Of course it has had a negative influence too, but do not ignore the good points either!
How big of him. Of course, he'll never speak out against Putin criminalizing gays simply for existing.
He is a very refreshing voice, and his anti-clericalism statements are actually the boldest. For a very long time this male privilege has taken hold and through time the actions of priests and bishops have taken them to fancier lifestyles and princely power. This guy lives it. He's humble. He's sincere. He cares, and he knows that's what Jesus would do.
He's unlikely to open the floodgates to women clergy but married men, maybe. Remember how far he has to travel to get the church back on the road to service and humility. But he's leading it from the front, and it's already showing.
Imagine telling kids to shake up their dioceses and to make their bishops uncomfortable!!
About sexuality - the Roman church won't be mirroring the Episcopal church any time soon, but we do have a model that shows gays and women can have full power and make great contributions.
Francis is absolutely stunning - pray for his health and continued openness.
Why is anyone reporting on what this idiot is saying? Topics regarding this nobody should be automatically deleted. Ann Coulter is more relevant.
R25 then how about you not pay attention to this thread and go elsewhere
He certainly is a breath of fresh air. Equality usually comes in steps, not in one big whoosh. But the things he is saying are remarkable.
I agree his safety from the pompous asses surrounding him is questionable.
I think it was the curia who outed the priest he had picked to take on the financial scandal. They thought it would get rid of him but instead they got this interview from the Pope. They must be sputtering in their tea cups.
Pope Francis, "Who am I to judge? I love feeling the barefeet of hot young Latin bad boys - so I'm not one to say anything against anyone."
Pathetic how little it takes to fool you silly queens.
[quote]He's humble. He's sincere. He cares, and he knows that's what Jesus would do...
... and that's why he'd better watch his back.
Francis on women from MSNBC:
He said that the church had spoken on the issue of women priests and expressed itself clearly on the issue of abortion, but he added that important female biblical figures had been overlooked.
"Mary is more important than the apostles," he said. "One must think about women in the church. We have not done enough theology on this."
An opening for women?
What R30 said. The rampant homophobia was hurting their bottom line, apparently.
Nothing has really changed. Church position has always been that 'homosexuality' is not necessarily evil, in and of itself, so long as it's not'acted upon'. The church can accept celibate gay people, but will not accept sexual gay people.
The last pope changed that because he was looking for a scapegoat for the child abuse scandal. But this pope is just keeping to church policy. This statement was made in regards to CELIBATE priests, not openly gay people in general.
25 Pope Francis is no idiot, he originally worked as a chemical technician then obtained a degree in philosophy and taught literature and pyschology before studying theology and entering the priesthood.
He is in danger. I liked him from the very beginning. He seemed like a cool, genuine, humble and likable guy.
I hope the fucks in the Vatican don't kill him.
[quote]How big of him. Of course, he'll never speak out against Putin criminalizing gays simply for existing.
Well, that Russian monster eliminates anybody even looking at him the wrong way. I wouldn't put it past him to kill a pope.
37 That is really a matter for the Patriarch of Constantinople, Bartholomew I, the most senior figure in the Orthodox Church. As it is the Orthodox Church, not the Catholic Church, which holds sway in Russia and it does not recognise the primacy of the Pope, what Pope Francis says about Russian affairs holds little weight
You stupid fools. It's still a 'sin' you know. According to doctrine, you're condemned to Hell. I'm sure Franny will pray for you, but that's it.
You're an idiot r25! Why didn't you take your own advice and ignore the thread?
r21 is right, this is just PR.
I'll give him more credit if he tries to shut down the vatican bank (like JP I did and then he had a 'heart attack').
Some of you bitter queens can find a cloud in every silver lining.
These words ring hollow. The Catholic church is still the Catholic church, and they're the worst of the worst. Why bother with any religious institution? As long as the government has all the laws in place to provide equality, who gives a flying fuck what any religious figure thinks? How about hoping that someday people will stop creaming themselves over religious figures and their opinions? The media attention the choosing of this guy received was embarrassing.
God is Santa Claus for adults and Pope Francine is just a slightly-more-tolerant elf.
What R42 said.
Some of you really need to read everything that he said. He still calls all the "nasty homosexual acts" as being sinful and prays that you remain celibate and resist the temptation if the devil. R30 had it right, you're easily fooled. Better Benedict who didn't hide behind nice words. With Francis he'll get all the lost sheep back and any sympathy they might have shown the gay community will be lost as they will believe this Pope cares for us gays.
Who gives a fuck what that old crone thinks?
At least he's going in the right direction. I would like for all religions, but the Catholic Church especially to treat us equally. I was raised Catholic, but I left the church, as has my family, because it is so backwards about things like this.
Interesting to hear him reference masons, too. I've always been fascinated with the masons and their secrets. I've always suspected the highest officials of The Vatican were in secret alignment with the highest members of Free Masonry. I still think this is true. I's sure the wold shadow government/global elite/Illuminati know no boundaries.
I am the prettier one.
Refreshing words indeed, but I'm still cynical as to the reasons this declaration was made. It was more shrewd than a sincere gesture of inclusion. It's interesting that such a humble candidate was chosen to replace such a divisive figure, and I do not believe the last pope left on his own valition. People began leaving the church as their support for their gay sons and daughters eclipsed their devotion to the entity that denounced them. As well, followers who needed the church for such basic needs as feeding their families and for shelter have become disillisioned with an establishment headed by men who live among gold fixtures and in Prada shoes. Choosing this humble man, who passes on limo rides, to be Pope was a very calculated decision. I have a hard time trusting that his image and his statement are little more than damage control, business, and new branding. The powers behind the Vatican knew this change had to happen and scurried to set the plan in motion, and yaaaaay, the Pope now thinks we gays are great. Praise Jesus!
Uh, he does NOT think gays are great r50.
From Time @ Yahoo:
At first glance, Pope Francis‘s statement on homosexuality, delivered today in an impromptu press conference aboard the papal plane, seemed to indicate a remarkable break with Church tradition. “If someone is gay and he searches for the Lord and has good will, who am I to judge?” Francis told journalists, as he flew from Rio de Janeiro to Rome. “The tendency [to homosexuality] is not the problem…They’re our brothers.”
The Pope’s words were warmly received by gay activists in Italy and abroad. “From now on, when I hear a bishop or a priest say something against me, I’m going to say, ‘Who are you to judge,’” says Franco Grillini, president of Gaynet Italia, the association of gay journalists in Italy.
But like many of Francis’ more news-making statements, the real difference is less about the contents of his words, than in the direct, earthy style in which he delivers them, and the Church teachings he chooses to emphasize. “It’s the way he’s expressing himself, with great candor, that is surprising to people,” says John Wauck, a professor of communication at the Pontifical University of The Holy Cross. “Actually, the substance of it is nothing exceptional.”
Francis’s comment in May that some atheists might make it into heaven drew headlines. The Vatican’s subsequent explanation that his words were in line with a long tradition of Church teachings did not. Similarly, Francis’s statement on the plane was not far from the passage on homosexuality in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, published under Pope John Paul II in 1992. That text calls on Catholics to accept homosexuals “with respect, compassion and sensitivity,” avoiding “every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard.”
Where he differed is what he left out: the accompanying message in the Catechism that while a gay person is to be accepted, acting out on homosexual acts is to be deplored: “under no circumstances can they be approved … Homosexual persons are called to chastity.” Francis, who cited the Catechism in his answers to reporters, said nothing to contradict this. Asked for his position on gay marriage, he answered: “You know perfectly the position of the Church.”
But while Francis has put little doctrinal space between himself and his predecessors, comments like the one on the plane reflect a clear choice in the early months of his papacy to de-emphasize the issues of sexual morality that have made the Church a lightning rod in the culture wars. Even as France was consumed last spring in debate over the legalization of gay marriage, a battle that pitted the French Church against the government, Francis made no mention of the issue.
In Brazil, he told the reporters on the plane, he purposefully avoided talking about abortion or gay marriage, in order to stay focused on the positive. “His message is not ‘Don’t do that, don’t do this’,” says Wauck. “The moral scriptures are present, but they’re implicit. The attention of the Pope is on a much larger vision of the Church and what Christianity has to offer to the world.”
I find it strange that evolved gays would seek the approval of a medieval religion that obviously don't want you in the club.
R51, you clearly missed my obvious sarcasm. Now loosen your cunt.
Alright, sorry r54 I had to reread you entire post to get the tone. I was just kind of skimming.
R55, what a stand-up guy. There I was being a total twat and you showed me grace. Pope schmope.
I completely agree with r21. It's a PR move. They have lost a lot of members and are trying to make up for it. People shouldn't fall for this crap. They're all about money and power. I was abused by a priest and have a priest in my family, so I have some idea of how they operate. They're a bunch of assholes.
[quote]These words ring hollow. The Catholic church is still the Catholic church, and they're the worst of the worst.
Worst of the worst?
Worse than Southern Baptists? Assembly of God? Disciples of Christ? Fundamental Islam?
No, don't think so.
This was a huge thing - I am not a catholic - lots of people are talking about this today. Finally some sanity - this will shut our rabid bishops in the USA up - at least they are going to have to turn down their language.
In addition to the bishops turning down their language, R59, I think some of them are going to be told to give up their posh living quarters and fancy cars.
Pope Francis is a conservative who is anti-gay marriage and anti-gay adoption. He has described same-sex marriage as the work of the devil and a “destructive attack on God’s plan.” He has also said that gay adoption is a form of discrimination against children.
In 2010, Francis championed against a bill for same-sex marriage and gay adoption, according to the National Catholic Register.
“[T]he Argentine people will face a situation whose outcome can seriously harm the family," he wrote to the four monasteries in Argentina. "At stake is the identity and survival of the family: father, mother and children. At stake are the lives of many children who will be discriminated against in advance, and deprived of their human development given by a father and a mother and willed by God. At stake is the total rejection of God’s law engraved in our hearts.”
He went on to describe it as a "‘move’ of the Father of Lies who seeks to confuse and deceive the children of God" and asked for lawmakers to "not act in error." In John 8:44, the Father of Lies is the devil.
[quote]Worse than Southern Baptists? Assembly of God? Disciples of Christ?
Yes. Those sects will hate and condemn us openly. We know where they stand. The roman catholic church now pretends to love us, but then condemns us behind our backs. Read what he actually said, not what the vatican PR machine wants you to believe. They still stand behind the 'intrinsic evil' statements the previous closeted case made with regard to gay sex. Gay sex is evil. That's what this pope thinks.
Maybe not worse but a close second. The catholic church can't kill us in public (any more) but they still can foster a culture that gives us people like Antonin Scalia who clearly just want us all gone. Same goal, different means.
The minute Francis was pronounced Pope, I knew he'd make things that much harder for the anti-Catholic crowd. He's just so likeable, humble and genuine. All of a sudden, Prada shoes and closeted queen jokes are obsolete. And the record crowds in Brazil shows the church is thriving, there at least.
He still thinks you're a faggot, R67, a sinful, in need of forgiveness for being you faggot. And of course you still can't act on your impulses.
r66 has no credibility. Evangelical Christians would prefer homosexuals to die, be wiped from the face of the earth. But there's an American obsession with Catholicism which always baffles me because they're a minority religion in America yet they get the most negative headlines. Evangelicals, Southern Baptists and others preach death to homosexuals every day but it matters little. Why no attention to what Pat Robertson says on TV?
Pope Francis is not "humble" nor does he "love everyone." He speaks of "Masonic lobbies" and the "elite" because he is one of them. He's always waving the classic Freemason/Illuminati hand sign. Freemasons and the Illuminati are anti-Christian and hide in plain sight seemingly to do good, but fool everyone.
On the right track: R48, R50, R21, R30, R34, R39, R41, R51, R57, R61, R69
R42 and others like that can't see the clouds because they're too busy looking at the fake silver lining.
So, R6, R12, R19, R31 and R36 don't worry about Pope Francis' safety. He's well protected by the masons, politicians and elite he speaks of in a totally different way.
r70 is fighting a lonely, losing battle. The man is a breath of fresh air and the world is responding accordingly.
Didn't the Archbishop of Santo Domingo just call someone a "faggot"? Was he rebuked by Rome? Was he removed? Dolan the pig in New York said when DOMA was repealed “Today is a tragic day for marriage and our nation ... The Court got it wrong."
Do ANY of you assholes celebrating this collaborator with torturers and killers in Argentina understand how monstrous this ghastly institution is? How fraudulent, cruel, immoral they are and how they have used bribery, blackmail and political pressure to "defend" their phony, bullshit "Church" against the monstrous abuse of children, which is WORLDWIDE and includes both genders.
Yes, the Catholic Church is worse than the various moronic Protestant sects, the most extreme of which are losing followers. They are small, though poisonous, their influence has limits.
The Catholic Church is a Multinational Criminal Conspiracy, saved from being the worst only because it no longer has direct political power. If it did all you fools would be tracked down and imprisoned, if not killed.
This latest crook and his crock of shit should be seen in the proper context. If he had said, "We have acquired hundreds of billions of wealth based on a simple minded myth with no basis in fact, from a legacy of inflicting slavery, exploitative practices, torture and suffering all over the world for fifteen hundred years, and now it is time to start giving it back and spending to relieve the soul killing poverty that is occurring all over the world", one could regard him as a hero and weep at his funeral tomorrow.
If he had said even, "We mustn't confuse transient bigotry and illogical hatred with decency and morality, however long they have held sway and been supported by our church. It is time to reconsider our heritage of hatred and injustice and regard all people as our equals and celebrate the value even of those who have been outcast because of their sexual orientation or have been denied a full role because of their gender" we might have admired his humanity and wept at his funeral tomorrow.
Instead his full remarks were vague and the hatred stands.
Are you saying the Catholic Church has more influence in the US than those "various moronic Protestant sects"?
Those sects put together outnumber the Catholics in this country and they are "true believers". They dominate the Republican Party.
Catholics of European descent are more concentrated in the Northeast. Even to the degree they are voting more Republican, they vote for moderate Republicans.
Most Catholics in US are only nominally Catholic, anyway. They use birth control, don't have a problem with gays from a theological standpoint and generally in favor of marriage equality.
Any non-medieval message from a Pope is refreshing. And so unexpected.
Take a deep breath r72, and relax. And no, your little rant won't sway anyone who isn't inclined to be swayed.
[quote]Yes, the Catholic Church is worse than the various moronic Protestant sects, the most extreme of which are losing followers. They are small, though poisonous, their influence has limits.
Those so-called small sects are the majority in America. Catholicism is a minority religion as far as Americans are concerned and shouldn't take up too much of their time.
R71 In no way am I "fighting a lonely, losing battle" so quit being so melodramatic. I'm simply stating facts as I see them. A "breath of fresh air" doesn't mean that the Pope is either sincere or on a mission of truth or good. The fact is a lot of people *are* fooled by small changes in the world. Giving false hope is actually one of the things the elite/illuminati do best.
R69: The Puritans left England because they found the Church of England insufficiently intolerant of Catholics. From then, thru the Know-Nothings, Blaine ammendments, the distrust of Al Smith, the KKK, Eleanor Roosevelt, Jack Chick, there was a long tradition of hostility to RCs in the Protestant USA. That explains (never excusing), in part, the instinct to cover up the clergy abuse scandal - to avoid giving ammunition or validating those calling the church the "Whore of Babylon".
What the Pontiff states is nothing new: In RC dogma, marriage is a sacrament, and sexual contact outside of it -premarital, male/female, same sex, solo - is a no-no. It's refreshing to see Frances mirror Jesus' "Let him without sin cast the first stone" response to those trying to positiom him as a heretic, but Jesus also told the woman to "go and sin no more"
It's between the person, their conscience, and their priest when they participate in the confession/ reconciliation sacrament - nobody else's business.
Why people think that RC = Westboro Baptist...you won't see RC celebrate gay sex like some liberal Protestant cburches, but the venom is out of proportion. But not surprising, in context of the historical antipathy to RC that existed in the American colonird since day 1
R72, I guess you forgot to take your meds today. Don't worry it will be ok.
Don't down play the Swiss Army guys- they are aall well trained , most have previous military experience, and there are more of them that dress like Secret Service Agents- than in the formal traditional costumes.
Are they all Swiss?
I don't get it why people are so excited about what he said. He didn't say anything new. You do realise that what he said has been an official stance of catholic church for many years? Being gay is not a sin, but acting on it is. So being gay and looking for god (whatever he means by it, probably living in celibate your whole life) is nothing new. So no, there is no progress at all.
It's just better PR, presenting something old as something new and supposedly progressive.
Well, church also considers fornication a sin.
What he said is new compared to what was begun during the reign of JP II. They were attempting to eliminate gay men from seminaries. Now it seems that it's okay to be gay and in the priesthood.
I'd love to be gay
Cardinal Timothy Dolan was on the Today Show this morning and hotly denied that the Church has changed its ways, regarding gays, in an interview with Matt Lauer.
R42 and the rest of the Cathofags can keep deluding themselves and think that this means anything. Dolan has already pooh-poohed Francine's message and reiterated the Church's belief that gays are evil. The rest of the hierarchy will quash this like Tom Cruise on a gay rumor.
At first I thought, big fucking deal that he said this. But the more I think about it, it really is a big fucking deal; progress happens in baby steps, especially when it comes to the church.
Cardinal Timothy Dolan is afraid. Very afraid. His "beliefs" are being challenged by the Pope. But - he of course thinks he is the one that has it right.
Besides gays divorced people can't marry in the church either
Some of us bitter queens remember the plaudits JP2 got at the start of his reign before his true character shone through. Just give it time, R42.
Last I checked, Dolan still isn't Pope.
So what? The pope is a figurehead, purely there for PR purposes. Benedict filled positions with the right-wing Opus Dei, and they're the ones calling the shots in terms of church policy.
Rick Santorum says the pope's comments were taken out of context.
He is right, though. Who the fuck is he to judge anything except a "best tomato" contest?
Santorum has been speaking out for Opus Dei for several years.
I wonder if Scalia had a panic attack when he read the Pope's comments. He has a "fear" of gays. And goes to the same Opus Dei church in Great Falls, Virginia, as Santorum.
If the Pope allows gays he will have to allow orgies.
I fear r6 may be right.
Pope Francis said religion has the right to express its opinions but not to "interfere spiritually" in the lives of gays and lesbians, expanding on explosive comments he made in July about not judging homosexuals.
In a wide-ranging interview published today by Jesuit magazines, the pope also said that women must play a key role in church decisions and brushed off critics who say he should advocate more vocally against abortion and gay marriage.
If Catholic leaders fail to find a "new balance" between their spiritual and political missions, the pope warned, the church's moral foundation will "fall like a house of cards."
His days are numbered.
Very telling that he chose the word "opinions" according to the quote at R101. Not Church "doctrine", but [bold][italic]opinions[/italic][/bold]. This is huge.
All the spin here is delusional. What's next glory holes in The Vatican? The Roman Catholic Church still had an antiquated view of being gay. Which is a hoot because most of their hierarchy is and foot soldiers are gay men.Lay Catholics and Catholic countries are down with gays and gay marriage but The Roman Catholic Church is not.