She drowned her five small children in Texas in 2001.
Here is some stuff that was covered by the CNN program tonight:
She drowned all her children to save their souls. She believed that one of the boys would grow up to be a serial killer, another would become a mute homosexual prostitute (the mute part is strangely specific), and so on. She sent them to heaven before they could be condemned to hell for their future (evil) actions as adults.
In her second trial, she was found not guilty by reason of insanity, and she could technically be released some day. But it's doubtful any judge would ever sign that release order.
I really hate her husband... Asshole Christian wack job husband kept getting her pregnant even though she was clearly unfit.
He is partially to blame.
The world of a heterosexual is a sick and boring life.
Andrea Yates. I swear, her damn husband didn't even grieve, he just started up where he left off and remarried. He's probably had 14 new kids by now. Didn't miss a beat.
I recall this trial, it was clear from the beginning that the gal was never psychologically fit to do anything, that she even raised that many kids as long as she did was amazing. such a tragedy
Were they part of the Quiverfull movement? They don't believe in birth control, no matter what the Mother's physical or mental health or the family's financial circumstances.
Yates having been a Quiverfull wife lead to her not obtaining proper mental health treatment. They are hard core Patriarchal breeders.
I'm not solely trying to lay blame on Quiverfull 100% of the way. But, the odds are really high that she would not have murdered her children if she could have obtained mental health treatment early on.
Yates is one person who could very well just have plainly been insane at the time of the murder(s).
It's all a shame.
Andrea did take medication throughout her illness and it helped a little; when she went off the last time....so sad.
Her asshole husband was repeatedly told that she should not have more kids since she suffered from really bad postpartum depression each time, actually more like psychosis. He also kept her cut off from family and any friends.
Her husband and church also expected her to home-school the kids, and take care of his dementia case mother, which meant he put huge amounts of stress and responsibility on a mentally ill person.
Not to mention the kids spent 24/7 with a crazy person, and that's how he expected them to grow up.
R10, no she didn't! My lolly is wet
A national treasure. She neither spared the rod nor spoiled the child.
Her husband was fully to blame for everything. He's apparently blissfully happy now, married again and with new children.
Don't be so sure she will never be released. Very few of the worst actually die in an institution. Time passes, people forget, the awful becomes a joke in a bit.
Andrea's reasoning that her wayward children were better off dead and innocent and therefore eligible for heaven is consistent with fundamentalist Christian belief. Was her reasoning sane? Who knows. How can we say she knew or didn't know right from wrong? Ultimately, what is right and wrong and isn't that a subjective judgment call?
I think the legal test of culpability should be did the murderer know "illegal vs. legal." If you know your crime is illegal and you do it anyway, you get fully punished.
She was severely ill.
Rusty Yates is scum. He is fully responsible for the death of this children. But he obviously didn't and doesn't give a shit.
I know someone who used to go to a church that Rusty showed up at with the post-Andrea wife. She walked behind him and never spoke.
Another acquaintance had a husband who worked with him at NASA and said he was a total arrogant asshole.
He should be in jail for gross criminal negligence.
[quote]I think the legal test of culpability should be did the murderer know "illegal vs. legal." If you know your crime is illegal and you do it anyway, you get fully punished.
Let us all thank the heavens that you don't control the judicial system.
Quiverfull families normalize physical, mental, and sexual abuse. Even babies are beaten into submission, and phony smiling countenances. Mental illness is rampant, as individual wills are broken, and and personality destroyed.
Rusty Yates is a total asshole, but I'd blow him in a heartbeat . . . sexy guy.
[quote]Ultimately, what is right and wrong and isn't that a subjective judgment call?
WTF? Right and wrong are subjective? Are you insane yourself? We're talking about killing your own kids. That's always wrong.
Wow, R22. You're setting the bar pretty low if this is your definitions of sexy.
[quote]How can we say she knew or didn't know right from wrong? Ultimately, what is right and wrong and isn't that a subjective judgment call? I think the legal test of culpability should be did the murderer know "illegal vs. legal." If you know your crime is illegal and you do it anyway, you get fully punished.
At the dawn of western jurisprudence, "right" & "legal" were the same thing, as were "wrong" & "illegal". Each society passed laws that reflected its commonly accepted morals.
Social mores have changed -- now right/wrong are subjective concepts that depend on context, whereas legal/illegal are objective terms that depend only on the language & binding judicial interpretations of statues.
And R23: Mrs. Yates killed her children to save them from what she believed would be a fate worse than death. Many kind people adhere to the subjective belief that mercy killing is not morally wrong.
Except she was batshit crazy, R25.
Granted, R26. But not everyone who considers mercy killing to be morally justifiable under certain conditions is nuts. The point is that "right" & "wrong" are subjective concepts as to which decent, moral, sane people may differ. Mrs. Yates is not one of those.
The husband may be a fundie asshole but if you've ever lived with someone psychotic, they're 800 lb gorillas. I read the book by Suzanne Malley about the case. Andrea's family is full of manic depressives but they were all in denial about it. She went to numerous shrinks, but they all misdiagnosed her (including the ones who are basically to blame for the death of her children). They all kept coming up with postpartum depression. One shrink (when Andrea was non-responsive) sent her to substance abuse group therapy. Totally nuts.
An interesting fact - when psychotics fall physically ill or are pregnant, their psychotic manifestations diminish or disappear. Andrea, by staying pregnant, was basically self-medicating. Psychotics always suffer from religious mania, kind of hard to tell them apart from fundies. I think the husband's a jerk, but he isn't to blame. My older sister's bipolar with psychotic episodes, good luck bossing her around. Though generally they're suicidal, homicide isn't that uncommon and her idiot shrinks should have been more proactive. You can also blame managed care in psychiatry.
Been reading about those who've left cults, including Quiverfull and Scientology, online. Can you elaborate on the relationship between psychotics, religious mania and fundies and cultists.
The American media and culture going over these old sordid crimes over and over is truly sick.
Rusty may have been a jerk in some ways but he isn't to blame. He tried to get her help and then believed the doctors. No one knows what it's like to have a psychotic family member unless you do (I do). You never think they're going to do the ultimate bad thing because you dont know what's in their head. Blame the horrid mental health care in the US. Truly shameful.
WTF r16? You can't just claim that any crazy shit you choose is "consistent with fundamentalist Christian belief". Being able to see into the future, determine that your children are all hopeless sinners and then decide to play the role of god and mass murder them is not consistent with any Christian belief in any aspect, except the existence of heaven and hell. This woman was insane, period. In her insane mind she might have done the right thing, even though anyone else can see that she didn't.
One weird offshoot of the case was that the media began claiming postpartum depression can turn into postpartum psychosis. Women who have psychotic episodes after giving birth either had them also before getting pregnant or were timed for the onset of psychosis once their bodies had expelled the baby. Psychiatry is the most inexact science.
As for cults, etc., I think psychotics are rare in their numbers. The leaders have narcissistic personality disorder and are psychopaths, but not psychotic. I always assumed followers were just dumb, downtrodden people who couldn't function without being told what to do.
But I knew a woman who not only died in the Solar Temple business (which was, at its base, just a money-making scam), she was one of the murderers and even murdered her own daughter. She was a beautiful, sophisticated, intelligent French woman. She didn't fit any of the categories I had considered for cult members. That's an enigma that will haunt me forever. The only clues I've ever found were she had absolutely no sense of humor and had been in an abusive marriage. A sense of humor allows you to see the ridiculousness in a situation, get perspective on your own behavior. I think "no sense of humor" should definitely be considered a psychiatric disorder.
It's an overused word these days, but I think Rusty Yates really is a sociopath. He may not be legally responsible for what Andrea did, but he's certainly morally responsible.
This was a terrible case but I felt sorry for her. Her husband is just as guilty and he goes on with his life. There was another case like this on television over the weekend. Very religious, teaching the children at home..... The wife went to the minister and told him that she was depressed and overwhelmed. She wanted to take meds to help but he told her to pray and everything would be fine. She ended up killing the husband and iirc 2 of her 3 children. The mother committed suicide.
Rusty Yates moved on with his life, and is lauded by many, as shown by this thread. He's a terrible human being, but he's living the good life now. Rusty will grow old with his new wife and new kids, and no one will ever question his dangerous straight white male religious beliefs.
How many followers does Quiverfull movement have?
Exactly R39. The injustice of it all really bothers me. He contributed to the death of his children, he KNEW his wife needed to be hospitalized, yet he prayed and read his bible, while his poor wife was actually trying to cope with her illness.
The husband tried to get her hospitalized shortly before the murders. She had been hospitalized a few months before the murders and the hospital discharged her, claiming she was better and leaving the husband and his mother to look after her and the kids with no therapeutic support. The husband tried repeatedly to get her admitted to hospital again and the shrinks and the insurance company refused.
The husband's main worry was that Andrea would commit suicide, not that she would harm her children as she had never shown any hostility toward them nor voiced any threats.
Interestingly, Andrea was hospitalized for several years at Rusk State Hospital (which used to be known as "for the criminally insane"). She was transferred to a minimum security hospital at Kerrville several years ago and is free in her movements around the grounds of the hospital and can even go into town. She has never tried to commit suicide though that wouldn't be that difficult for her to do in such an open setting. You do wonder how she can live with what she did, particularly if she is medicated and no longer psychotic. On some level, she must think she was "righteous" to do what she did. Otherwise, she'd kill herself.
The husband's a fundie jerk but Andrea's a freakish enigma, even beyond her obviously severe manic depression.
R40, Estimates of Quiverfull followers is at least 10,000. However many, like the Yates and Duggars, believe in only some of what they preach, and avoid the negative associations with the name. There are several online blogs of ex-Quivering girls who've run away from the cult, and it's advocacy of physical, emotional, and even sexual abuse.
Since parents arrange marriages, and even a kiss is forbidden until the wedding day, I wonder how many closet gays and lesbians end up in forced relationships.
R42, Fundies' favorite expression is "It's God's will." I'm sure Yates blames her kids' death on God, and not on her mental illness. Or she believes they're truly better off in Heaven, rather than waiting for the inevitable Rapture, that's "right around the corner" for Fundies.
All of them have a very dark, fearful view of the world. That's why they insist on homeschooling; to prevent contamination.
In a medical report a doctor commented that despite Yate's dire mental condition, she and her husband intended to have more children, and the stress would certainly bring on more psychotic episodes. So there was fair warning.
Yates and her husband were Christian wack-a-doos who intended to have as many children "as God would allow." Rusty Yates is absolutely contemptible; what kind of a fucking asshole would leave his demented wife alone with four needy, screaming little boys and an infant girl? He KNEW they were in danger; when he got the call he asked "which one?" He knew his wife was dangerously cuckoo, but figured it's a woman's place to stay home and take care of the kids, even though she's a nutjob.
Yates not totally out of her mind when she killed her kids. She had the wherewithall to call Yates and tell him "you need to come home." She very methodically and calmly drowned the poor kids; she even had to chase one of them down to drag him to the bathtub and kill him. She was not certifiably "insane."
She should be locked up forever. But she'll probably get out in a few years; she has her Christian supporters fighting for her release. If she does get out she'll probably marry again and have more children and then...? It's unsettling to even think about.
As for Rusty Yates, he's moved on, remarried, and has another child. He's just as guilty as Andrea. He put those children in harm's way.
Both of them are reprehensible human beings.
More on the Quiverfull beliefs, some of which the Yates followed.
"Among yet more extreme believers, such as the pro-patriarchy homeschooling ministry Vision Forum, some movement leaders urge followers to develop a “200-year plan,” to chart out generations of children, grandchildren and great-grandchildren for centuries to come, along with tasks they want those descendants to fulfill to glorify the family name. “If the Christian Church had not listened to the humanistic lies of the enemy and limited their families,” writes Vision Forum founder Doug Phillips in an introduction to the movement book Be Fruitful and Multiply, “the army of God would be more powerful in this hour. The enemy’s camp would be trembling.”
Some movement leaders urge followers to develop a “200-year plan.” It’s absurd, on one hand, to believe that two hundred years’ worth of heirs will follow an ancestor’s goals so closely, but it’s also a logical extension of the “demography is destiny” argument that Quiverfull relies upon: that through the sheer number of their offspring they will be able to enact their will upon the culture around them.
The problem with the Quiverfull movement isn’t so much the threat that the bombastic calls of its leaders for demographic dominion will come true, rendering America the reconstructed Puritan colony that the far right imagines. Rather, it’s the enforcement of a stringent chain of command on all of its adherents, but especially its women, in the name of such a plan, so that women are told to sacrifice their bodies and individual desires as an offering to God. Many Quiverfull mothers follow the example of leaders calling for such self-sacrifice but, without the wealth and high-profile the Duggar family enjoys, life on the path to number eighteen is far different for them. This isn’t the stuff of reality TV, but it is the reality of what underlies this movement."
"In a medical report a doctor commented that despite Yate's dire mental condition, she and her husband intended to have more children, and the stress would certainly bring on more psychotic episodes. So there was fair warning."
The psychotic episodes were totally unrelated to postpartum depression - she was a psychotic and the pregnancies diminished her symptoms. The onset of manic depression generally occurs in the late teens, early 20s when she began to have children. That the psychiatrist who issued that report hadn't NOTICED the woman was a psychotic manic-depressive, hadn't bothered to search out Andrea's medical family history to discover manic-depression was rampant in her family - is damning.
There was a monumental amount of spinning going on after the murders by all the psychiatrists who treated her (and who should have been sued for malpractice) and Andrea Yates' family which tried to hush up the problems in their manic-depressive household, including how Andrea was expected to look after her dying father without any help from her mother or brothers and sisters. During that time, her husband was looking after their kids.
Husband's a jerk but the culpability lies with the shrinks.
R47, I agree with your conclusions but I wonder to what degree the leaders of the Quiverfull movement take advantage of the mindset of their followers. If Yates had had fewer kids, then perhaps a live-in nanny would have been possible.
Andrea should never have had any children, the number was not the issue. It is not impossible that Andrea realized, on some level, her manic depression was inherited from her father and that it was probable she had passed it on to all her kids.
[quote]Yates not totally out of her mind when she killed her kids. She had the wherewithall to call Yates and tell him "you need to come home." She very methodically and calmly drowned the poor kids; she even had to chase one of them down to drag him to the bathtub and kill him. She was not certifiably "insane."
You have a rather odd definition of sanity.
In terms of criminal liability she did not understand that what she was doing was wrong. That's not guilty by reason of insanity.
"Husband's a jerk but the culpability lies with the shrinks."
Who are you, one of his lawyers? It is ALL (well, his and hers) that stupid fucker of a husband's fault, for continuing to knock up his looney wife and dumping all responsiblity for the kids on HER. I can understand why he'd want to blame the doctors such as you are; he's such a prick that he wants to absolve himself of all blame. The blood of those children are on his hands, too.
"In terms of criminal liability she did not understand that what she was doing was wrong"
She knew very well what she was doing was wrong. That's just it. She DID know it was wrong. She's a murderer, plain and simple.
View of mental illness, they "think it’s especially bad in conservative Christian circles, where people talk as though faith in God, repentance, and choosing to be happy are all you need to be mentally healthy – like it’s really all in the head and the spirit."