Said Mubarak this month:
“[Late defense minister Abdelhalim] Abu Ghazleh came once to me and said the Americans requested to build a base here and I agreed. I told him: You have no authority to approve that and neither do I. You don’t own (Egypt) and neither do I.
“When I later met with the then-U.S. Secretary of Defense during an official visit to the U.S., he told me Abu Ghazleh approved establishing a military base. I told him the Egyptian constitution allows neither Abu Ghazleh nor me to approve that... They wanted bases at any expense.”
Mubarak also stated that the U.S. had attempted to assert control over Egypt’s communications systems.
“Then they wanted to establish an electronic network for the armed forces. This is of course so Israel and America monitor [the armed forces]. I told the defense minister to make them forget about it...”
Mubarak said that he was informed of the American plan by the armed forces and realized that such a plan, if carried out, would allow the U.S. to paralyze all communications in Egypt.
It is easy to dismiss this interview as the revisionist mutterings of a former US concubine tossed aside in favor of a more youthful prospect. But considering revelations about US/UK spying not just in far flung areas but even in the heart of Europe, suddenly such claims seem less far-fetched. And reports that the US military is deploying to Egypt suggest its new rulers may welcome a bit more foreign muscle to keep unrest from becoming too threatening.
Egypt to Implode?
Posted by Daniel McAdams on June 30, 2013 11:39 AM
The Egypt experiment is falling apart. The massive protests today, marking the first year of Islamist Mohamed Morsi's rule, are pushing the country of more than 80 million to a crisis point with implications for the entire region. It has been a slow-motion disintegration from the begining, however.
US-backed liberal Egyptians took to Tahrir Square in 2011, trained by the State Department to mobilize masses through social media to overthrow Mubarak rule. Their success resulted in their being shunted aside in favor of the real power in Egypt, post-Mubarak: the Muslim Brotherhood and the military.
Since then, contrary to US government predictions, democracy and freedom has not broken out bringing with it economic prosperity and social harmony. History teaches us that revolutions are not as simplistic and binary (bad out, good in) as some would like us to believe. The Egyptian economy, dependent on tourism, has been in free-fall since the unrest, leading to deep layers of resentment in those who were told that overthrowing Mubarak would bring economic growth. Energy costs have soared and electricity is increasingly scarce.
Why did the US support both the position (Mubarak) and the opposition (April 6 Movement, Kifaya, etc.)? It is not as uncommon as it might seem. Aging and ailing Mubarak's rule was coming to an end anyway, Egypt's population was young and frustrated, and though the US did not necessarily wish to spoil its relationship with the Egyptian dictator it did seek maximum influence on the coming succession struggles. With half the population under age 35, US training of young Egyptians in the use of social media and the regime change techniques of CIA-asset Gene Sharp was a successful strategy to light the revolutionary fire.
Additionally, as Mubarak explains in an interview this month, he was proving an irritation to the US over his refusal to allow permanent US military installations in Egypt and his refusal to allow the US to "help" with establishing a communications network in Egypt.
Unrest is reaching a crisis point, though. Clerics are warning of a civil war. And the US is worried. In Africa, President Obama has expressed concerns over the increasing likelihood of major violence and has taken steps to protect the US Embassy in Cairo.
When Egypt falls apart completely, which is likely, the result will be even more chaos, economic collapse, and bloodshed. Blame will be apportioned to the rulers, the opposition, the military, the Mubarak-era decay, the economy. All have a role, to be sure. But what we will not see, particularly in the US mainstream media, is the blame that should be laid at the foot of a decades-long wrongheaded US foreign policy, which props up one corrupt regime, finances armies of regime-change specialist NGOs, switches sides, calls a revolution in the streets "democracy", and looks on seemingly-puzzled at the dislocated and desperate society left in its wake. The role of US interventionism in the destruction will not be raised in the US media or by US politicians pretending to seek answers. Interventionism can never be blamed because...well...we meant well.
Why is it falling apart? Islamic fundies and their zeal to stamp out anything they don't like.
FREEPER FUNDIE CUNTS!
Before the US GOVERNMENT decided that Mubarak had become a liability Egypt was fairly stable. Once Obama decided to arm rebels and destroy him, things went to shit.
Obama is just Bush V3.0 - a tyrant that does anything Wall Street tells him to do.
Military coup happening now!
[quote] Once Obama decided to arm rebels and destroy him, things went to shit.
Um, excuse me? Which "rebels" did Obama "arm" in Egypt?
Egypt has been a dysfunctional mess for years and the US can do little about it.
The whole Arab world likes to blame everyone else, particularly the US, for its widespread illiteracy, violence, corruption, clan politics and ineptitude.
All the old paintings on the tomb
They do the sand dance, don'cha know?
If they move too quick (Oh-Way-Oh)
They're falling down like a domino
Don't forget blaming Israel, R10. I worked with several Palestinians when I lived in Germany. It was absolutely insane how they blamed "Israeli spies" for every personal problem or hardship in their lives. Nothing was ever their fault. It was so predictable, this attitude was clearly ingrained in them from an early age.
If the last few years have proven anything, R12, it's that the Arab nations can self-destruct without Israel's help.
R7 - Libertarian Idiot Troll(TM).
The reason Benghazi has disappeared fom the news is that full exposure would show that Dems & Reps were behind the movement of arms to "rebels" in Syria, Iran and Egypt.
The USGOV is trying to destabilize the Middle East. Wonder why?
A stable Middle East is in our interest and we tried to keep it that way for a long time.
What are "our" interests. I have interests. You have interests. My neighbor has interests. Your neighbor has interests.
In many cases those interests will coincide. In some cases they will vary. In a few cases they will seriously conflict.
The 99.9% have interests that conflict with the interests of the elite .1%. The elite know that the dollar is built on the fact that ALL oil transactions are settled in USD.
Therefore a destabilized, fractious Middle East benefits that .1%.
R17 is correct.
And to add, the vast oil resources of Libya.
OP, r1, r2, r3, etc. is a moron.
Resistance to Muslim Brotherhood rule and Sharia law by Egyptian non-Muslims.
A mind as witty and incisive as R19 only comes around once or twice in a generation.
Thank God your parents didn't drown you in a tub as a baby.
R20, please elaborate.
If you're pointing out the huge gulf between peaceful Sunni (+/- 90% of Muslims) and Shia (+/-10% but backed by wealthy Saudi families) then I would like to hear your thoughts.
What peaceful Sunnis? I won’t link to it here, but you can search Youtube for how Sunni Muslims kill Shia Muslims in Egypt.
There are peaceful people in the world, regardless of their religion, but Sunni ideology has nothing to do with peaceful.
I've never been to Egypt, but I think the origin of all their problems could be the way they walk.
For a country so reliant on tourist revenues, they are not managing their transitions very comfortingly.
R20 is a product of the American school system. Dumb as dirt when it comes to all things that don't involve something called "Honey Boo Boo."
Morsi was a fool for ignoring the country's economic problems. With a large population, high unemployment, and no oil wealth, this sort of attempt to create an islamic state doesn't work well.
R20s response is rather non-sequitur in light of the thread.
Gubmint skools have made so many people too stupid to even see how stupid they are.
When a meme as "soph-moronic" as "they hate us because of our freedoms" can take root and thrive (despite the fact that our freedoms are shrinking daily) then you know that Gubmint Skools are doing the job they were designed for- keeping the sheeple too stupid to care and too ignorant to do anything about it if they did care.
If I were president my first act would be to abolish ALL government funding of schools.
Then you would have a population as intelligent as Somalia's. I have never met one graduate of Andover or Exeter that had an adequate brain or knowledge of America's vicious role in the world.
R29: Libertarian Idiot Alert!
[quote]The reason Benghazi has disappeared fom the news is that full exposure would show that Dems & Reps were behind the movement of arms to "rebels" in Syria, Iran and Egypt.
Yes, that's the reason. How could we possibly doubt it? Just look at all of the data and evidence that support that. Oh, wait...
[quote]The USGOV is trying to destabilize the Middle East. Wonder why?
Probably because you're a paranoid loon.
What a pile of crap. Not only is the OP's post nonsensical and contradictory, the numerous asshole fundie posts and the pro-Islamist posts actually sound like they're coming from the same worm-infested brain.
R33 is bullying other posters in the 'Average Penis Size' thread.
R34 posts homophobic, ageist shit all over the DL and then tries with OCD zeal to cover up her tracks.
Bring it, R35... There's no homophobia here. Only your shock that someone would fight back.
Fight back? You're the homophobe pretending to be a "proud gay man." Take your hate elsewhere.
You're lying, R37. You have nothing substantive to go on, so you're just posting in a frenzy, hoping something will stick. Anyone is free to check my posting history, and see that I've never made a homophobic comment once - as a gay man, that would be ridiculous. If they check yours, though, they will see bullying.
We're on to you, dear.
R38 tells the truth. If you look at R37's history, he's been harassing others in other threads.
Harassing? What the fuck are you, the hall monitor, R39?
You have serious rage issues, R40. Why do you feel the need to attack so many people?
ATTACKED!!!!! I WAS ATTACKED!!!!
Must be Gidget's night at the DL. Homophobia and ageism are the issue, not the fact that you didn't get a gold star for your insipid post. It's the DL. You don't use homophobic games and expect a free pass.
I feel sorry for you, R42. You're clearly in the midst of a mental breakdown.
Don't cover up homophobic posts and being called out on them by trying the "get help" reflex. You're too short for that gesture. And there is no Shubert Theatre in Texas.
You're acting out your paranoid fantasy world, R47. Keep on with the flame war if you must, but it's evident that you're losing your grip.
Cut the ageist and homophobic posting, and quit playing hall monitor - with the shit you post it's not a convincing pose.
No one believes you, R46. Post the homophobic comments I made, and prove your assertion.
Speaking for the whole site now, are you? If you don't remember your posts, I'm not going to help you. I'm just calling you out on it, and will do so in the future, once the ban is lifted. Because you and I are being cut, I trust.
Lay off homophobic posts and cutting people here - focus on the posts, and you'll stay out of trouble, little hall monitor.
I am a proud gay man, and you're grasping at straws in your illness. You couldn't find anything homophobic in any of my previous posts, right? You failed, R48.
Still at it? Tsk. And doing nothing but repeating everything except the homophobic remarks, huh? Tsk tsk.
You know that I haven't made any homophobic comments, R50. If I had, you would have posted something. Proof is in the pudding, dear, and you've failed.
And just like that, the thread proves Americans don't give a shit about Egypt. But they love to fight each other.
The postings in this thread are final proof that America should stay as far away from the Middle East as humanly possible. We know as much about it as we do about Pluto.
The real story behind the military coup in Cairo led by General al-Sissi is much more complex than the western media is reporting. Far from a spontaneous uprising by Egyptians, – aka “a people’s revolution” – what really happened was a putsch orchestrated by Egypt’s “deep government” and outside powers – the latest phase of the counter-revolution against the so-called Arab Spring.
A year ago, Egyptians elected Mohammed Morsi president in their first fair democratic election. Morsi came from the ranks of the Muslim Brotherhood, an eight-decade old conservative movement of professionals dedicated to bringing Islamic principals of public welfare, politics, education, justice, piety and fighting corruption.
But the deck was stacked against Morsi and the Brotherhood from day one. The brutal US-backed Mubarak had fallen, but the organs of his 30-year dictatorship, Egypt’s pampered 440,000-man military, judiciary, academia, media, police, intelligence services and bureaucrats, remained in place. Even Morsi’s presidential guard remained under control of the Mubarak forces.
The dictatorship’s old guard – better known as the “deep government” – sought to thwart every move of the Brotherhood. In fact, the stolid, plodding Morsi only became president after more capable colleagues were vetoed by the hard-line Mubarakist courts.
Morsi should have purged the “deep government,” notably the police, secret police, judges, and media who were sabotaging the democratic government. But Morsi was too soft, and the entrenched powers arrayed against him too strong. He never managed to grasp the levers of state. Ironically, after all the media hysteria in North America over the alleged dangers of the Muslim Brotherhood, it turned out to be a dud.
The Brotherhood stumbled from one crisis to the next as
Egypt’s economy, already in terrible shape before the 2011 revolution, sank like a rock. Tourism, that provided 17% of national income, evaporated. Unemployment soared over 13%, and over 50% among angry urban young. We have recently seen this same phenomena in Turkey, Tunisia, Algeria, Pakistan, and Western Europe. Severe shortages of fuel and electricity sparked outrage.
Egypt’s curse is that it cannot feed its surging population of over 90 million. So Cairo imports huge quantities of wheat and subsidizes retail prices for bread. The US sustained the Sadat and Mubarak regimes with boatloads of wheat discounted 50%. This vital aid tapered off when Morsi took power. Food prices in Egypt rose 10%.
Equally important, ever since Anwar Sadat invited in the US to rearm his outdated military, Egypt’s armed forces have become joined at the hip with the Pentagon. Just as Turkey’s 500,000-man armed forces were, until eleven years ago, and Pakistan’s so remain today.
Armies of many Muslim states are designed to control their populations, not defeat foreign enemies. The only Arab military force in recent memory to beat an invader has been the guerilla forces of Lebanon’s Hezbollah.
The US provides Egypt’s military $1.5 billion annually, not counting tens of millions of “black” payments from CIA to leading generals, police chiefs, commentators and bureaucrats.
Egypt’s military has been totally re-equipped with US F-16 fighter-bombers, M-1 heavy tanks, armored vehicles, radars, electronic systems, and artillery.
Washington has supplied Egypt with just enough arms to control its population and intimidate small neighbors, but not enough to wage war against Israel. Further, the Pentagon sharply limits Egypt supplies of munitions, missiles and vital spare parts. Many of Egypt’s generals have been trained in US military colleges, where they formed close links with US intelligence and the Pentagon. CIA, DIA, and NSA have large stations in Egypt that watch its military and population.
Under Mubarak, the US controlled Egypt’s military and key parts of its economy. When Morsi and the Brotherhood came to power, Washington backed off for a while but in recent months apparently decided to back the overthrow of Egypt’s first democratic government.
This fact became perfectly clear when the White House refused to call the military coup in Cairo a coup. Had it done so, US law would have mandated the cutoff of US aid to Egypt.
US politicians and media, with shameless hypocrisy, are hailing the overthrow of Morsi as a democratic achievement. In North America, anything labeled “Muslim” has become ipso facto menacing.
The counter-revolution of Egypt’s “deep government” was financed and aided by the US and Saudi Arabia, cheered on by Israel, the UAE, Britain and France. Tiny Qatar, that backed Morsi with $8 billion, lost its influence in Cairo. The Saudis will now call many shots in Egypt.
In recent weeks, mass street demonstrations in major Egyptian cities against Morsi were organized by the police, secret police and the Mubarakist structure. Fears of the Brotherhood were whipped up among Egypt’s nervous Coptic Christians, 10% of the population, who form much of the urban elite.
Then there were tens of thousands of unemployed, highly volatile young street people, as we recently saw in Istanbul, ready to explode at any excuse. Large numbers of Egyptians were fed up with stumbles of Morsi’s government – even some of his former Salafist allies. – and the threat of economic collapse. Liberals, Nasserites, Marxists joined them.
There may be some armed resistance against the coup, but it will likely be crushed by Egypt’s military and attack-dog security forces. Senior Brotherhood officials are already being arrested, and pro-Brotherhood media gagged, while Washington turns a blind eye.
As of now, the threat of a real civil war such as Algeria suffered in the 1990’s after a US and French-backed military coup seems unlikely, but not impossible. Meanwhile, the military has installed a puppet president for the time being. The old US “asset” Mohammed el-Baradei may take over as civilian frontman for the generals, who prefer civilian sock puppets get blamed for Egypt’s economic and social crises.
So much for democracy in the Mideast. The overthrow of a moderate Islamist government will send a message to the Muslim world that compromise with the Western powers is impossible and only violent resistance can shake the status quo.
Copyright Eric S. Margolis 2013
The author is an expert on the Middle East and the effects of US/Euro manipulation in the area.
The US/EU will kill, steal from or destroy anyone who doesn't "play ball" the way they have with Libya, Syria, Iraq, Iran, etc.
Do you wonder why the Middle East hates us? Can you blame them?
R58, If you accept aid from the US, you should understand that there will always be strings attached. While countrymen starve, suffer without proper medical care, and lack education and basic resources, almost all of the privileged elite are corrupt. So what's the solution?
Most foreign aid goes to the government and government controlled businesses (the same with domestic aid- look at how much of the "aid to farmers" goes to ADM and Monsanto) and makes it harder for the citizens of these countries to fight back and control their government. When the USA is giving your dictatorial enemies millions in guns and tanks, it's hard to revolt.
R60, Reminds me of those who live at home and don't like their parents' rules. You've got to become 100% independent, especially financially, or tough it out, right? Ever work for a company and not like the owners' policies?
Morsi appointed Adel Mohammed Al-Khayat to be governor of Luxor province. He is a member of the group responsible for the murder of six tourists in 1997.
Yes, obviously Egypt's problems are all America's fault.
[quote]Muslims Demolish Church Building in Egypt
[quote]Posted GMT 1-16-2013 0:52:46
[quote](AINA) -- Hundreds of Muslims came out of mosques today with hammers and destroyed a social services building belonging to the Coptic Church while chanting Islamic slogans. Security forces arrived after the building was completely razed. The 100 square meters social services building in the village of Fanous, Tamia district in Fayoum province, 130 KM south west of Cairo, had all the necessary government permits; it had a reception hall on the first floor and a kindergarten on the second.
The Muslims have been whipping up fear in the Coptic community. I can pull up news links to kidnappings, murders and arson. The danger is not imaginary.
Are Coptic Christians generally wealthier than their Muslim counterparts?
[quote] A year ago, Egyptians elected Mohammed Morsi president in their first fair democratic election.
Fair? That's a matter of opinion. My expert says:
[quote]The parliamentary elections were rigged, marred by intimidation of voters, irregularities and assorted causes for concern that the elections were free or fair.
[quote]Not that it mattered, for the lower house of parliament was soon enough abolished, leaving an upper house that rapidly was packed by the incoming president with his party cronies.
[quote]And let's not start on the democratic credentials of a president *elected* by less than 40% of the population, after a campaign in which any other credible candidates were disqualified on one spurious ground or another. And let's not mention the election of the president which made the parliamentary elections look as pure as snow.
[italic]from the first post below the line[/italic]
----Morsi appointed Adel Mohammed Al-Khayat to be governor of Luxor province. He is a member of the group responsible for the murder of six tourists in 1997.-----
So you see that the US Government installed Morsi (via monetary and military support) but can't admit that the chaos in Egypt is the result of US/CIA meddling in their domestic affairs.
Even though dozens of heavily researched books- many written by former CIA, OSS, and diplomatic "on the ground" sources- have proven the fact that multiple US and EU "agent provocateurs" worked to destabilize the Middle East.
Fucking morons like you, who defend the government at every turn and refuse to see "conspiracy" even though it is apparent (but hidden by Cronkite, Couric and Rather) are disgusting. You would rather believe your fantasy than look into the reality of the evil actions of our government.
Via the same monetary and military support it had been receiving under Mubarek and Sadat before him? By the way, Cronkite is dead, Rather is retired and off the air and had a bit of a disgrace at the end of his career, and Couric's career has done nothing but go downhill.
Pointing out that Morsi appointed a man associated with a terrorist group is your idea of defending the US? That is some seriously fucked up logic you're working.
The Egyptian people voted for Morsi. The "expert" you quoted stated it was a fair, democratic election. Now you claim that the US installed Morsi? Well, which is it?
Cronkite and Rather were instrumental instruments in "selling" the monetary/military assistance to the US public. Now that they are gone, and the MSM is fractured, the majority of THINKING people who get their news from the Internet have realized that "foreign aid" is just bribery to keep petty dictators in line.
Dig deeper, R67. The truth is there.
It helps to attach reply tags-- like R66 - to determine whateverthefuck you're saying.
Here ya go, r70 and r69 and r66 and gosh, you've posted an awful lot in this thread, haven't you?
[quote]Fucking morons like you, who defend the government at every turn and refuse to see "conspiracy"
Please show one "conspiracy" that has been proven untrue.
Then explain the discrepancy between what the average person believes about these things-
The Bay of Pigs.
Sorry, but the people who are smart enough to dismiss all MSM propaganda beat your bullshit. Most of the rest of us love making you squirm.
Which government agency do you work for? NSA or CIA?
[quote]Please show one "conspiracy" that has been proven untrue.
"The moon landings were faked."
In any case, that's the beauty of these "conspiracy" theories; they can never be "proven" untrue to the satisfaction of the conspiracy theorist. No matter how much data you present, no matter how silly the theory, no matter how persuasive the counter-arguments, the paranoid loon (like the OP) will always choose to believe the conspiracy theory.
[quote]Which government agency do you work for? NSA or CIA?
[quote]While countrymen starve, suffer without proper medical care, and lack education and basic resources, almost all of the privileged elite are corrupt. So what's the solution?
Are you referring to Egypt or to the USA? Your words apply to both nations.
OP, and R1, R2, R3, R7, R15, R17, R21, R22, R26, R29, R54, R55, R56, R57, R58, R60, R66, R69, R70, and R72, who are all the same poster: is your name Eric Margolis?
Don't feed the troll, folks, this thread is mainly by one person who keeps bumping it whenever it doesn't get enough response.
Go away, please, troll.
And thank God for troll-dar.
[quote]Which government agency do you work for? NSA or CIA?
Thanks for proving you are a fucking loon, r72.
I pointed out that Morsi had appointed as governor of Luxor a man associated with a terrorist group that murdered several tourists in the 1990s. Instead of discussing Morsi's fuckup, you have since accused me of defending the US government, called me an moron, and are now querying which intelligence agency I work for.
R75, 911 was an inside job and if you doubt it you are either a fool or a liar.
Welcome to the club, R76. Apparently, I work for the NSA, too. We should grab lunch in the company cafeteria sometime and discuss our strategy for dealing with the unrest on this critical website.
I'd love to, r78, but I'm busy this week plotting Snowden's capture. Raincheck?
People who said the USA was using PRISM to spy on everyone were dismissed as tinhats around 2000.
Of course it was true.
R74, Inequality and access to basic resources necessary for basic health, education and advancement, in the USA vs Egypt, is a matter of degree, as is political corruption. Which country would you rather live in?
R77, 911 was not an inside job and I wish I had the opportunity to prove it to you personally. However without government incompetence and negligence at the highest levels, it wouldn't have occurred. Read Lawrence Wright's The Looming Tower for starters.
Oh, Libertarian Idiot Troll(TM). Is there any global event you can't use to push your own delirious nutjob obsessions?
I want to care, I really do. But I just don't. Does this make me a bad person?
Have you read the Toronto report R81?
r83 I don't care either. I mean I care about world news, but it's the Middle East. It's one shit after another for decades, if not centuries. They really don't have their shit together.
It doesn’t make you a bad person, but it is important to be aware.
911 was not an inside job, but it did expose government incompetence and shady relationships between the American government and the Saudis.
The Muslim Brotherhood is not just an Egyptian party, it’s a global religious political party that has representation in many Muslim countries. Hamas, which is one of their branches, has the largest number of cells in the US, more than any other known terror organization. They are active all around the world, including Mexico. Different names of organizations, all lead to the same thing.
Living a comfortable life where you don’t have to worry or think about these things means that someone else has to constantly make sure you don’t have to. Right now the Shias and Sunnis are busy killing each others and among themselves in a power struggle, but eventfully the west will have to deal with the winner. Russia is supporting the Shais, US the Saudis. Everybody is mixed in this thing. I don’t want to live in a world where countries ran by Sharia Law and controlled by Islam fanatics or Putin have the same economic power and military capabilities as the US.
I don’t take the fact that I’m free to be gay and that the law protects me from being killed for it for granted.
"The old US “asset” Mohammed el-Baradei may take over as civilian frontman for the generals, who prefer civilian sock puppets get blamed for Egypt’s economic and social crises."
Hardly an old asset. He criticizes the US often.
Morsi was a rotten leader -- incompetent and overreaching. The military sucks too.
There is no one in Egypt who offers credible leadership.
[quote]There is no one in Egypt who offers credible leadership
It's about time the fucking mummies crawl out of their coffins and start kicking ass!
Democracy does not work in the Middle East. Neither does any other form of government.
Has everyone forgotten how we fucked ourselves with Iran the same way we're handling the crisis in Egypt?
Let's prop up dictators for the sake of oil!!! YEAH!!!
I heard the Egyptian military plans to release the former dictator, Hosni Mubarak. If this is so the shit will really hit the fan!