Did she approve? Did she think Marilyn would be a good stepmother to their children?
Considering MM's drugged state most of the time, did SHE know?
She could taste her on his cock.
Jackie came from a time and place where women expected their husbands to have affairs. They knew their husbands would never leave them and no matter how much time they spent with their mistress, the wife was the one who had the status and position in the eyes of "society", and that is what really mattered. Whatever tail her husband may be banging, there was no way her name would show up in the social registry.
That's too bad. I would have loved to have seen JFK introduce Marilyn to Jayne Wrightsman and Babe Papley.
She definitely didn't approve and that's the reason why she stayed at home on JFK's birthday when Marilyn sang to him. She had made a "this woman or me" ultimatum and lost.
If Jackie didn't know, she was the only one in the nation who didn't know.
Of course she knew. She learned to turn a blind eye to his escapades
Was it on DL where it was rumored that Jackie was fucking RFK? I forget if it was before or after JFK's assassination though.
She knew alright, she knew about most of them and there were a LOT.
She supposedly started banging RFK within months of the assassination. It wasn't just sexual they were seriously involved with each other.
Of COURSE she knew. Jackie was smart as a whip and nobody's fool. Don't let that little breathy baby doll voice fool you. In fact, she sounded a bit like Marilyn!
Not only did Jackie know but her (maybe grudging) sympathy lay with Marilyn. Jackie knew that MM was being used by JFK and felt sorry for her. MM was never a threat to their marriage. Jackie knew from Peter Lawford that MM was fragile and so she felt that MM was being taken advantage of by JFK.
Jackie knew for 10 years or so that MM had been a fantasy figure for JFK and had taken an MM poster to JFK's hospital room once to cheer him up.
It showed MM wearing shorts and JFK had the poster hung upside down so it looked like MM's legs were in the air.
Shortly after MM's death Jackie cut down a conversation about it by saying something like "It's sad enough the poor girl died without us gossiping about it"
I've read in several biographies (of MM and Jackie) that, while they never met, they did have an encounter on the telephone. MM had called JFK, but Jackie picked up instead. MM was under the delusion that JFK was going to leave Jackie and make her first lady, so Jackie called her bluff.
She preferred being first lady, so she did not care much about it.
Remember when JFK Jr. briefly dated Madonna in the late '80s? His mother was none too pleased, especially since Madonna was emulating Marilyn at the time.
Incidentally, I've read that John-John had a fascination with his father's affair with Marilyn. He even went so far as to feature Drew Barrymore as Marilyn on the cover of his George Magazine. But initially, he'd wanted Madonna dressed up as his mother, in a dark wig and pill box hat, but she declined. So Plan B was Drew/Marilyn.
Is this a case of an Oedipus Complex? What would be his diagnosis?
When Marilyn died, Jackie was told by reporters of the tragic news and when asked to respond, she said "She will go on eternally." Then Jackie walked down to the beach and sat on a rock for several hours, gazing out to sea as if lost in a dream. There was an affinity there with Marilyn and Jackie felt it.
She mentions it in the unedited White House tour, OP.
"And then this tablecloth is new. It is a gift to The White House from the firm of Port-eau and it's all embroidered in gold to match the center piece and the knives and the forks. My husband fucks blonde whoors beneath this tablecloth. These three pictures are on loan and are by Healy."
"If Jackie didn't know, she was the only one in the nation who didn't know."
Bullshit. JFK's affair with Marilyn and anyone else was not common news to the average US citizen. I'm not saying it didn't happen (i.e. Franklin Roosevelt) but it simply wasn't discussed. It may have been common knowledge to DC insiders, but for the rest of the nation beyond the Beltway, it would have been total
and shocking news that the POTUS was having an extramarital affair.
It was glaring, front page news when, 30 years later, another President was caught having an affair with an intern. I simply can't imagine the uproar if a sitting US president was found to be having an entramarital affair in the early 1960's.
Jackie was in love with RFK and RFK was probably doing Marilyn. Was Jackie jealous? was RFK involved in Marilyn's death? huh.....
Aren't all of these people well past dead?
Wondering if J. Edgar Hoover had phone recording or tapes of Marilyn and either Kennedy. Things seem to be pop up now and then and Hoover supposedly LOVED to keep tabs on everyone.
[quote]Jackie was in love with RFK
I've heard rumors of an affair, but never heard this. When is she supposed to have fallen in love with him? And why?
I would like to think that Jackie had some affinity and compassion for Marilyn. That sounds so nice, although it could just be revisionist history. Where is that story from about her walking down and staring out at the sea after Marilyn's death? Or her quote about Marilyn?
Jackie could not have come from a more different background than Marilyn. Jackie was highly educated and world travelled. Marilyn, while natively intelligent, had such a hardscrabble childhood and hardly any formal education. BOTH women were used to the spotlight, though, and understood the power that powerful men played in their lives. I don't think either woman had a particularly happy life, even with all their fame and privilege. I always see a sadness behind both Jackie AND Marilyn's eyes. Similar in ways that I don't think has ever been written about much, actually.
Most women seemed to like Marilyn Monroe, in person & on the screen. She so obviously needed to be taken care of & comforted. Dangerous competition for men's attention, but nevertheless more like a lost kitten than a wily panther.
Yeah, I think part of Marilyn's appeal (especially to women now) is that even though she was sexy, there was nothing vile about her. She was not a mean-spirited person. Also, a lot of them feel she was wronged in life (i.e. insane mother, no father, no real family to speak of, used by men, taken for granted by the studios).
Papa Joe told his boys to fuck any and all the women they could for as long as they could. Just like Papa. Jackie was allegedly very close to Papa Joe, He was partial to her which probably didn't help her relationship with the nose picker, Ethel.
I read that JFK's sisters liked MM a lot and were kind of pleased that RFK took up where JFK left off. One of them wrote MM a letter mentioning how happy they were with the relationship with RFK. Maybe they didn't care for Ethel either.
Maybe Jackie didn't care about any of JFK's affairs because she knew they weren't getting fucked senseless because JFK was rumored to be less than hung and wasn't one for foreplay. He was a wham bam thank you Ma'am kind of fuck.
Now what Lem Billings was doing with JFK is a whole different story.
Marilyn was known to be a kind, gentle woman. I cannot think of anyone in a book or interview who ever said that she was not those things. the reasons she angered and exasperated so many people (later on in her career, anyway) because of her mental issues. Undependability. Frequent absences. Weight issues. Health issues. Very much like Garland in this respect. So many people depended upon her to have a work ethic and she was just so messed up that she did not. Like Judy, getting a performance out of her was like pulling teeth. Now, once you DID get her before the cameras, it was magic. But studios bled money catering to her problems and everyone she worked with was stressed and frustrated. She SEEMED like a temperamental star and was looked at as doing all this because she did not give a shit about anyone else. But it was mental illness.
It was pretty common knowledge about RFK and Jackie.
R27, Was there a thread on DL that suggested that Onassis had some involvement with RFK's assassination? The article you quoted suggests that there was a rivalry between the 2 men for Jackie.
R27 - Please your linking to a review of a book by a discredited author. Spend two minutes on google and you will see there is no reason to believe anything this guy writes.
Let's not romanticize this. Kennedy was clearly a rich kid who was accustomed to taking what he wanted and Jackie went along for the ride.
Not so, r6. If you were alive then you would know that JFK's amorous activities were NOT known to the US public.
No, r27. Again, it is revisionism, I don't GAF WHO is the speaker. NOBODY (except for maybe a couple RFK pals/Ethel) knew ANYTHING about Jackie and Bobby. ANY-THING.
Indeed, when Jackie married Aristotle Onassis, Americans were stunned that she even knew him.
The Eisenhower-Kennedy era operated like a sort of mini-Victorian throwback, culturally speaking. As long as you played the goody-goody game in public and were very discreet about whatever you did in private, you could generally get away with it. The "happy birthday to you" incident was certainly a major breach of protocol, but I guess that was an early flare-up of the sexual revolution. I'm sure Marilyn wasn't the first movie star to give it up to a major American political figure, just the first to make a public gag out of it.
R14, my diagnosis is you're a Madonna obsessive.
"I'm sure Marilyn wasn't the first movie star to give it up to a major American political figure...."
Considering JFK apparently had Angie Dickinson on Inaugural Night.....(He told Jackie he was leaving to go get a newspaper. She knowingly wise-cracked about it when JFK returned.)
[quote]I simply can't imagine the uproar if a sitting US president was found to be having an entramarital affair in the early 1960's.
Why were the 60's so different from the 1920's? Was there anyone in the nation who didn't know about Nan Britton? She would take the train from Ohio to DC where a Secret Service driver would meet her and take her to the White House. Nan and the President would enjoy themselves in a five-foot-square clothes closet in the Oval Office.
It was also known that the POTUS was at the Gayety Burlesque watching the bumps and grinds several nights a week.
Other Presidents have been unfaithful to their wives. But none has perpetrated the kind of French farce that Warren and Florence performed in the White House.
There was rumor that before JFK became President,he had so many affairs to the point Jackie was going to leave. Jackie and the old man had a good relationship. He was suppose to have paid Jackie to stay because it would ruin JFK's chances of becoming President. Back then a divorced man did not stand a snow ball chance in hell at becoming President. Reagan was the first divorced man to be elected.
R35, The 1st philanderer I heard about was JFK.
Who was Nan Britton? Was it true about Eisenhower as well?
r17 Not true. It was all written in the tabloids. Although tabloids back then were more subtle when they made accusations.
Florence Harding became the first President's wife to demand her own Secret Service agent. He was acquired not to protect the Fist Lady, but to keep Warren Harding's most recent inamorata, Nan Britton, out of the White House.
The agent did not do a very good job. According to the bestseller Nan wrote a few years later, she communicated with Warren via the mails and arranged her train trips to DC.
Once the First Lady almost caught them.
Tipped off by her Secret Service man, she rushed downstairs and demanded access to Warren's sanctum. The Secret Serice agent who had escorted Nan from Union Station was guarding the inside door, which he refused to open "by order of the President."
An infuriated Florence raced around and invaded the office of George Christian, on of the President's secretaries, adjoining the Oval Office.
Sensing what was up, Christian stalled her with double-talk about his boss being busy, while the Secret Service man guarding the other door extracted Nan from the clothes closet and hustled her out a side exit.
When Florence finally charged into the Oval Office, Warren was at his desk reading a letter. That did not save him from a ferocious tongue-lashing.
(There's a lot of U.S. history that's perfect for a gossip site.)
JFK & Marilyn. Two Geminis fucking. That makes four people in bed.
What I find interesting about Jackie is her attitude towards Arthur Miller. She had admired him...until his play "After the Fall," which characterized the recently-deceased Marilyn as a self-destructive slut. After that play she turned on him, for his lack of loyalty.
r38, you are daft. Did anyone maybe think that there was some funny stuff going on between JFK and MM, after that "Happy Birthday" stunt?
Possibly; people think all kinds of things.
But "tabloids"? Uh...like what/ There was no NE, Globe, US, People, etc.
Nobody knew a whit about the Mob moll Judith Exner, either.
[quote]But "tabloids"? Uh...like what/ There was no NE, Globe, US, People, etc
What were magazines like Hollywood Confidential? I think there was a similar one based in NYC.
R42, I remember hearing about some high-level government official claiming that the only Campbell he knew about was "in Campbells' soup," and that he didn't know anything about Judith Campbell Exner. So what was the truth?
[quote]Nobody knew a whit about the Mob moll Judith Exner, either.
On the other hand, everyone knew what a gangster and Nazi sympathizer JFK's father was.
[quote]But initially, he'd wanted Madonna dressed up as his mother, in a dark wig and pill box hat, but she declined. So Plan B was Drew/Marilyn.
I have a very difficult time believing he'd have anyone, let alone Madonna, impersonate his mother on the cover of George whether she was alive or had already passed away by the time.
[quote]NOBODY (except for maybe a couple RFK pals/Ethel) knew ANYTHING about Jackie and Bobby. ANY-THING.
Oh, please! They both had Secret Service agents assigned to them and they both had Secret Service drivers. That's just the start of the long list of people who knew about them. Had there been cellphones with cameras, there would have been plenty of photos of them out together in Washington and northern Virginia. DC gossip maven Barbara Hower was all over it.
Incidentally, Rob Lowe and Ginnifer Goodwin are playing JFK and Jackie in a new TV movie. I wonder what Jackie would've thought of a fat girl playing her since she was obsessed with being skinny.
At least two presidents are said to have fathered what was called an "illegitimate child" - Cleveland and Harding.
R36, that was not a "rumor." We found out about it decades later -- it was true. Jackie was especially peeved that JFK was out on a boat with other friends and women when she was giving birth or having the first miscarriage, can't remember.
"Was it on DL where it was rumored that Jackie was fucking RFK? I forget if it was before or after JFK's assassination though."
This was not hatched on the Datalounge -- it's been out there forever. Jackie supposedly got with Bobby after JFK's assassination.
r42 The most popular tabloid/gossip magazine "confidential" did out gay people and did not hold back on gossip. In many ways they were more scandalous than gossip magazines. Rumors of JFK being adulterous was printed. Albeit many probably didn't believe it in the same way no one today believes what is in "the national inquirer" although they sometimes are on the money.
Oh, I'm glad I can post a reply. One day I'll quit being a cheapskate and actually pay money, so I can start threads. Again I refer people to Darwin Porter. In both his "Hollywood Babylon, It's Back" and his book on the Kennedys he tells of Jackie meeting MM in Truman Capote's NY apartment a couple of months before MM died. Jackie pleaded with MM not to go public with her affair(s). It is becoming clearer and clearer that the Kennedys were involved in MM's death. Was Jackie? Porter also talks about MM's affair with Ronald Reagan.
R53, I started a new thread for extra gossip.
Thanks, R47. Looks like his PR woman was pretty surprised, too. It happened two years after her death. Kind of sounds like it was a posthumous middle finger to his mother.
Thanks for that info R53. Very interesting.
DARWIN PORTER??? R53, quoting Darin Porter makes your post absolute bullshit.
r57, you could at least learn to spell his name right.
R58 why? It's not like Porter cares about accuracy.
New book claims Marilyn told Jackie about the affair:
SPY Magazine once memorably described them both as "barely audible women."
R2, ladies of that era did not engage in that activity. Prostitutes were paid to do the deed.
Robert Kennedy's wide, Ethel, is still living.
Historians have long written about the possibility that Marilyn Monroe -- who died 51 years ago Monday -- and John F. Kennedy had a relationship.
Now, a new book claims Monroe actually called first lady Jacqueline Kennedy to talk about it.
The long rumored love affair between President John F. Kennedy and Marilyn Monroe is at the center of Christopher Andersen's new book, "These Few Precious Days: The Final Year of Jack with Jackie."
Presidential historian Doug Wead thinks Andersen's sensational revelations could well be true. He said, "It's the sort of thing that's unbelievable but really happens in history. Some of these things we're uncovering right now will move from speculation to fact as time progresses."
Andersen writes that when Jackie first entered the White House, she feared she'd never see her husband.
Instead, sharing both home and office meant that she saw Kennedy many times a day, eventually deciding the White House years were "the happiest time of my life."
But Andersen also reports that Jackie knew about all of JFK's women. He says the affairs upset her, but she was willing to turn a blind eye, as long as he didn't publicly embarrass her.
It was his relationship with Monroe that "seemed to bother her the most," because, Andersen writes, "in large part because Marilyn was a loose cannon who could go public at any time, causing a scandal that would obliterate her husband's reputation, destroy her marriage and hold her up to public ridicule."
He claims that Monroe -- aware her career was fading -- thought Kennedy would marry her.
Andersen writes that Monroe told a friend, "Can't you just see me as first lady?"
Andersen says Monroe even called Jackie and told her of JFK's promise to marry her. Jackie was unfazed, saying, according to Andersen's book, "Marilyn, you'll marry Jack, that's great ... and you'll move into the White House and you'll assume the responsibilities of first lady, and I'll move out and you'll have all the problems."
Wead says Jackie's acceptance of Kennedy's infidelity could be rooted in her relationship with the man she trusted most. Wead said, "She was closest to her dad, loved her dad. Her dad loved, adored her, and yet he had many infidelities in his life, so maybe she could come, in some curious way, to accept the fact that her husband Jack could love her and still be unfaithful to her."
[quote]Jackie was unfazed, saying, according to Andersen's book, "Marilyn, you'll marry Jack, that's great ... and you'll move into the White House and you'll assume the responsibilities of first lady, and I'll move out and you'll have all the problems."
Can you imagine the breathy voices of two of the most famous women in the world talking on the phone!!!!
I was a freshman in college in Massachusetts when Monroe died. It was known that JFK had affairs, but do not remember Monroe ever being mentioned. I did know that Rock Hudson was gay, but only because of a friend whom I completely trusted. But, he never talked about JFK and Monroe.
Also want to comment on Jackie and Robert Kennedy having secret service protection. She would be eligible as a widow of a president.
RFK may have had secret service protection as a presidential candidate after Martin Luther King was assassinated in 1968, granted by Pres. Johnson, by not until then.
Since RFK was the Attorney General, wouldn't he have had FBI protection prior to being a candidate?
I've read so much about these people and watched so many damned interviews I feel like I knew them but here's my take:
Jackie knew about Marilyn, and didn't feel threatened by her. At all. The fact that she was famous, was only problematic from the point of view that it might become public, and embarrass and humiliate Jackie and soil her husband's Presidency.
I'm sure Jackie never bothered to psychoanalyze Marilyn, to be sympathetic with her, or whatever. Jackie's concerns were the immediate. Her kids, her husband's presidency, and her role. If anything, She may have worried that Marilyn was unstable and would give it all away.
For Jackie, and most others of that era and that class, the main thing was scandal, and public embarrassment, not the infidelity per se.
If, as you say, Jackie walked off and sat on the beach staring out at the ocean after she got the news, maybe she was sitting there wondering if it was really suicide or murder. I'm sure she found her husband culpable. How could she not, even if it was that she regarded his behavior as flirting with danger and exploitive.
I don't believe RFK ever had an affair with Marilyn. He was enlisted to talk to her, calm her down, try to help her after she was fired from her movie for going to JFK's birthday party.
She was ranting and raving all over the place and calling the WH. When she wasn't put through, she started making threats and behaving irrationally, trying to go thru other JFK aides.
So Bobby made a detour from a speech in SF, and stopped by to visit his sister & Lawford, but in reality to talk to Marilyn, and offer help with her career, and try to resolve her sense of outrage and being twice crapped on, first by the studio and secondly by the president.
Jackie & RFK, I believe it happened. That was a different situation. It happened when he was half mad with grief and Irish guilt about his brother's assassination, and she was drinking quite a lot, starting in the mornings and well into the night and she was "relying" on Bobby a lot.
This Andersen hack is an asshole who is simply retelling a lot of stuff that is already widely known. He's made his fortune off the Kennedys. Google him. Not respected. Courts controversy. I love good gossip, but when you tread into the realm of history at least have the decency to be accurate. The old myth that Jackie & Marilyn spoke to one another is bullshit.
Robert Kennedy stayed on as Attorney General for only abour 8 months before running and winning the 1964 U.S. Senate race in New York.
Hmm. I have a theory. Not sure it qualifies as a conspiracy theory BUT here goes.
Jackie never complained about JFK's womanizing not only because she needed his money, but because of her own affairs.
JFK was a total asshole to her: flaunting affairs with any piece of tail he could get in the White House, but the worst thing was when she gave birth to a stillborn daughter and he was vacationing in Europe, cruising the Mediterranean with Teddy and his pal Senator Smathers. When JFK got the news that Jackie had given birth to a stillborn daughter, he didn't even bother going home, he wanted to stay on the party boat. Smathers convinced him that if he didn't go home 1) he wouldn't have a marriage any more which would mean 2) he wouldn't have a political career, so JFK went reluctantly home.
After Jackie gave birth to JFK Jr, she went off on holiday with her sister for a surprisingly extended period of time given that she had a newborn. You'd think JFK Sr would look after (or at least stay close to) his son and namesake. Nope. Apparently, he didn't even bother to go see the baby. Maybe JFK was strictly a photo-op only dad unlike his brothers, but maybe there was another reason he took so little interest in the baby - he knew it was Gianni Agnelli's and there was nothing he could do about the cuckoo in the nest without losing his marriage to Jackie and thus his career. Jackie's revenge for his philandering. Perfect.
When JFK Jr. died - somebody let me know if I'm remembering right, I'm not such a ghoul as to try to find the yucky photos again, his body was found and identifiable despite the crash. Yet, Caroline had him cremated. Hell, the stillborn daughter and the baby who died shortly after birth were re-buried with their parents at Arlington - but not JFK Jr.? And Catholics don't like cremation either. My theory: Caroline knew he wasn't JFK's son and figured in 100 years somebody would dig the two of them up, trace the DNA and discover the truth.
Anybody who can poke holes in my theory?
R71 there have been rumors of Jackie having affairs for years. And yes, probably with Gianni Agnelli, and two or three others. But no, JFK, Jr. was not his son. Jackie conceived JFK, Jr. before all that nonsense began. Jackie was pissed beyond words about Ben Bradlee's sister-in-law Mary, with whom JFK had a long term relationship while president (two yrs. was long term for him)I believe, and also deeply, deeply scarred when she discovered her own sister Lee had bedded JFK. So
Just wanted to add that Jackie loved being First Lady. She didn't like pouring tea for the Senate wives, but the opportunity to become a fashion icon, to imprint her style on the White House, and stretch her intellect was exhilarating to her.
Her White House restoration project, her social events at the White House, the cultural evenings were all her doing. She lobbied for the creation of the National Endowment for the Arts and the Humanities. That was her doing.
Then to be able to travel to the world capitals amidst the cheers and adulation she received, was a validation for all the emotional hardship she endured, and wifely sacrifices she made for her husband's political career, and for his infidelities. She never really minded publicity, she just wanted it to be on her terms.
She was an intelligent, stylish, cultured First Lady who had a lasting effect on the Presidency, and she knew it. At the time she became First Lady, there were a few women who were politicians, but she saw her role differently.
She thought domestic politics to be shabby, petty, and mundane. She didn't care who got the defense contracts or whether some Congressman wanted a federal agency in his district. She had a fascination with history, especially international history, and she enjoyed the world of international diplomacy.
In fact, LBJ trusted her on two separate occasions to deliver sensitive messages to foreign leaders under the guise of goodwill or tourist visits.
Speaking of LBJ, I remember reading about the tapes of their conversations and how she would flirt with him outrageously. Really surprised me. When I read the conversations with Schlesinger, she was horrible about him and Lady Bird. But Lady Bird ended up being one of her best friends. Rather devious woman, ole Jackie. And I still think Agnelli was the father of JFK Jr.
Until Jackie was First Lady, the White House never had a curator of the contents and antiques. She started up that whole department to get everything cataloged, restored, and properly stored when not in use. That department also tracked down White House furniture that had strayed into private hands and asked for its return. There is a big warehouse in Northern Virginia where incoming First Ladies can go to decide what antique furnishings from back in history that they would like to use.
Mrs. JFK also worked on the Pennsylvania Ave. Plan. This was DC's main parade street for visiting heads of state and it had all kinds of seedy hotels and junky stores. They were all torn down. Lady Bird Johnson built on that plan by getting Mary Lasker to part with million$ for trees and other plantings.
When JFK and Jackie went to Paris, she saw how they had restored old buildings on main avenues. She brought the supervisors of that work to DC to clean up the soot, grime, and bird droppings on government buildings along Constitution Ave. and Independence Ave.
Between Jackie K. and Lady Bird J., they really changed the face of the areas along the Mall.
The Washington Monument and Jefferson Memorial used to be dark at night. The Kennedy's held an outdoor dinner one night for a visiting head of state. She got the Army Corps of Engineers to light up those two monuments for the occasion. The whole city was thrilled and permanent lighting was installed.
For many years there were beautiful cherry trees between the Jefferson Memorial and Washington Monument, but Lady Bird had thousands more donated and planted all around the Tidal Basin. She also saw to the planting of trees all along the Mall.
There are very old buildings around the park across from the White House. The government was going to tear them down and put up modern government buildings. Jackie Kennedy put together a VIP committee to lobby to save the colonial buildings. They are all still in place, with the government buildings behind them.
I read a book years ago written by a Kennedy staff member. The author was employed as a chauffeur and used to help Joe Kennedy (father of JFK etc) with therapy in the pool after the old man had a stroke in the early 60s.
I only remember a couple if things from the book (I think it was called "Behind the Lace Curtain" because the Kennedy's always said that they were "lace curtain" Irish)
He wrote that on the day that Marilyn's death was announced the whole compound was silent and there was the strangest atmosphere. He wrote about this at length because he found it so strange and said that years afterwards when he read about the affair with JFK and the rumours of the possible Kennedy involvement in her death he would recall the eerie, strained atmosphere and would wonder........
Second thing I remember (nothing really to do with the thread) was that a masseuse told the author that Jackie had the coldest skin of anyone she had ever massaged.
The book was "Torn Lace Curtain" by Frank Saunders
From a review in People Magazine (Thanks Google!)
The author was the Kennedy family chauffeur for the last 10 years of Joseph P. Kennedy's life. Saunders grew up in foster homes, went into the Navy and was running a Boston parking lot and selling numbers when one of the old man's lieutenants offered him the job. "I drove the car. I showed the movies.... I cleaned their swimming pools, did painting and odd jobs. I carried Eunice Kennedy down the stairs when she was pregnant and rushed her to the hospital.... I washed and exercised Mr. Kennedy...." The Kennedys borrowed money from Saunders—even Jacqueline. And it is of her that Saunders gives a most exotic picture—a ghostly presence, trying to find something of her own in this noisy, self-centered family. Unlike many books written by the servants of famous people, Torn Lace Curtain is a pleasure to read. The large cast comes alive, and we learn, for instance, that John Kennedy was afraid to sleep alone—his friend Lem Billings, a cutup and joker, often shared the bedroom. The main character in the book is Rose, a frightened, vindictive, money-grubbing old lady in this account; she fired Saunders as soon as the old man died in 1969. This otherwise poignant memoir is marred only by the scorned servant's complaint: "Getting any kind of thanks from them was about as likely as getting a pay raise." (Holt, Rinehart and Winston, $13.95)
Mrs Kennedy had her own affairs during the marriage; whether out of self-defense, revenge or horniness is a moot point. She did so with the complete confidence that her husband would never leave her, let alone divorce her, regardless of how he felt about her or about some other woman/women. It was cut and dried. His political career, his public personna and his catholicism were each sufficient reasons for him to stay with her, and she knew it.
John F. Kennedy was not the only president to fool around in the White House. In fact, of all the recent presidents, only Truman, Carter and, perhaps, Obama (Michelle would kill him) were faithful to their wives.
Not every First Lady was as accommodating as Jackie O.
Why was Jackie particularly accommodating (and JFK really, really humiliated her while they were in the White House with Marilyn, Fiddle-Faddle, the intern, Judith Exner, Mary Meyer, etc., he really rubbed her nose in it)? She could have called him to book at any time, threatening divorce that would destroy his career. She didn't. It can't just have been the money, it had to be something much more major and the only explanation I can think of is JFK Jr's father was Agnelli.
But Lady Bird ended up being one of her best friends.
Lady Bird filled in for Jackie at many functions, especially those related to congressional wives, but state dinners as well.
Yes, the women were good friends. But Lady Bird made it a point to became friends with every First Lady from Jackie through Laura Bush, and probably Bess Truman and Mamie Eisenhower too.
R81 You said you were waiting for some one to "poke holes" or convince you other wise, about Agnelli fathering JFK, Jr., but you reject anything resembling a rational explanation. Please read my posts @ R72 & R73. JFK, Jr. was conceived long before any of that stuff started up.
As for humiliating her, Jackie's standard of measure was her own father. Compared to him, a drunk and a womanizer who couldn't even earn a living and who was on the dole from everyone, JFK was a paragon of virtue.
As I stated, there were only two occasions when Jackie felt "concern." Ben Bradlee's sister-in-law, Mary, who JFK obviously cared for and saw over a fairly long period of time, and she was truly scarred when she learned Lee slept with Jack. Interestingly, she blamed Lee more than Jack.
She carved out her own role and her own identity when she became First Lady. She was American Royalty, a member of a very powerful, wealthy dynasty. She finally had an opportunity to use her intellect and her creativity for the greatest possibly impact. You don't walk away from that because your husband can't keep his pants zipped.
She was never going to jeopardize that, nor would she allow someone like Marilyn Monroe to jeopardize it. If anything, maybe the drunken spectacle Marilyn made of herself at that birthday fundraiser was a turning point.
Because it was after that, that Bobby and Peter Lawford did everything they could to pry Marilyn away from JFK and calm her down. JFK stopped taking her calls, and treated her like a stranger. If anyone was ultimately humiliated, it was Marilyn not Jackie.
I loved Ladybird. I remember how she attended the funeral mass for Jackie, and sat very quietly towards the rear of the church so as not to call attention to herself.
[quote]John F. Kennedy was not the only president to fool around in the White House.
Warren G. Harding couldn't keep his pants zipped up.
Wasn't Calvin Coolidge the guy who had his young mistress hide in a broom closet at the white house? She had his baby?
You're mistaken, R86.
Fine. If I'm mistaken and it wasn't Calvin Coolidge who was it? Because one of those Presidents was a whooor!
"She [Jackie] finally had an opportunity to use her intellect and her creativity for the greatest possibly impact."
I believe you are over estimating her intellect. All the women who followed her in the White House had their own particular causes, and with the possible exception of Betty Ford, graduated from college.
Mrs. Carter is barely mentioned on DL, but she has worked continually over the year to fund mental health programs and well as her husband's own charity interests. There are many other examples after the Kennedy Admisitration that you must know about -- or would know about if you paid attention.
(Using Mrs. Cater as an exaqmple because she gets less attention in general than Hillary or Lady Bird.)
[quote]Wasn't Calvin Coolidge the guy who had his young mistress hide in a broom closet at the white house? She had his baby?
No, Calvin Coolidge and Grace were always very close and deeply in love. He wanted her to be the most beautiful woman in Washington, and would go shopping with her to pick out gowns she needed for formal occasions.
You're thinking of Warren G. Harding, R88. His girlfriend, Nan Britton, would arrive at Union Station by train and be picked up by a White House car and whisked to the Oval Office. It wasn't a small broom closet where they had sex. It was a larger closet attached to the Oval Office.
Florence Harding demanded that some Secret Service agents be assigned her. She didn't want them for protection. She ordered them to inform her if Nan Britton was in the White House as she had heard rumored. On one occasion, she almost caught Warren and Nan. While she was being delayed outside the Oval Office, the SS got Nan out a side door and into a car to Union Station for the trip home.
R89, chill out. When Jackie Kennedy became First Lady, her immediate predecessors, were Bess Truman and Mamie Eisenhower. I'm not "over-estimating her intellect".This isn't a discussion thread about the various First Ladies, and what they contributed to the country.
This is about Jackie & Marilyn, and more to the point, a discussion of why she "put up with" her husband's infidelities. I was pointing out that she found herself in a position to use her intellect and her creativity and she acquitted herself very well in the estimation of a great many people.
You're completely missing the point of this thread, and you're trolling to change the subject. If you want a thread to discuss the contributions of the various First Ladies, and who was smartest, start one.
It's very obvious to anyone that Mrs. Kennedy was a woman of accomplishment and excelled in certain areas. The arts & culture, the world of diplomacy. A a First Lady who was fluent in both French and Spanish was a very unique commodity in 1960.
It's silly to compare the First Ladies. Each one had strong interests in a given area, all of them sought to serve in some meaningful way and make a contribution. In fact, the whole notion of "finding something to do" that was meaningful in future administrations, got a huge boost from Jackie and Ladybird.
[quote]It's silly to compare the First Ladies. Each one had strong interests in a given area, all of them sought to serve in some meaningful way and make a contribution.
Actually, it's fun to compare First Ladies. Bess Truman didn't seem to have any projects other than keeping her husband happy. She didn't have a lot of time in the White House. During the Truman administration, they found out the place was falling apart when Margaret's piano fell through the floor. They moved into Blair House, a block away, and the entire interior of the White House was gutted. There are photos of bulldozers pushing dirt around in the basement area. Only the outer walls and roof were left in place.
Mamie didn't have any real projects. She would awaken each morning wearing her pink sleeping mask, pink headband, pink nightgown, and put on a pink bedjacket and sit up in her pink bed in a pink bedroom. A maid would arrive with breakfast on a pink tray served on pink china with a pink rose in a pink vase.
She would ring for the head usher who would come in to get his orders from the commanding general (Mamie) for the day. She would read a list of instructions from her pink pad and check things off with her pink pen.
When Jackie Kennedy moved into the White House, she set the standard for all who followed.
I am sure Mamie Eisenhower ALWAYS dialed the phone with a pencil!
Oh please. You Jackie lovers need to go back and listen to some of those fairly recently released interviews with her where she gossips and makes fun of pretty much everybody that she came in contact with during her White House years, inc. her good "friend" Lady Bird. ANd as far as putting down Mamie, at least Mamie didn't invite the man she was sleeping with and later married to stay with her at the White House before her during the weekend her husband was being buried. And thank god she had the White House repaired and updated. By those standards Nancy Reagan would be considered a saint. The bitch may well have loved her children, and according one of her friends, RFK, but for the most part she was interested in only money and her own image, I.e. that ridiculous fake voice, the fiction that she and JFK lived in Camelot, and her marriage to Ari.
R91: You have posted many more times in this thread than me. I was in high school and college during the Kennedy and Johnson Administrations. I have every right to call you on your glorification of Mrs. Onassis vs. Marilyn Monroe, although we really do not disagree all that much about Jackie's over all importance.
I agree that Jackie's knowledge of languages and other cultures was a big advantage during the Kennedy presidency. But, it is a huge leap to credit her with any really significant accompishments in diplomacy beyond charming Pres. de Gaulle and other foreign leaders.
If she was deeply interested in diplomacy, every president, GOP or Democrat, would have had the option to appoint Jackie ambassador to France.
I can tell your age because Mrs. Johnson's
first name was Claudia, but called Lady Bird since she was a child not Ladybird as you have typed several times.
R95 I was in high school when JFK was assassinated. 'Kay? Getting back to the fucking point, someone raised the question as to why Jackie would stay with JFK even though he was a cheat.
Along with other factors, I've taken into account that she had carved out a meaningful role for herself on the world stage and she enjoyed her life with all it's short comings.
I know what fucking Ladybird's fucking name was. Claudia Alta Taylor. U post a lot because this is a subject I'm informed about and enjoy discussing. Capish?
Girls, girls, you're both old.
[quote]But, it is a huge leap to credit her with any really significant accompishments in diplomacy beyond charming Pres. de Gaulle and other foreign leaders.
It helps to have a First Lady who can charm foreign leaders.
There were two First Ladies above all others who were known for their diplomacy. Each was well-versed in all their husband hoped to accomplish and they made the rounds of diplomatic receptions with a major agenda beyond their beautiful gowns and polite conversations. Ambassadors sent glowing reports on these two First Ladies and they can be seen in archives in many European nations. During their times it was considered a major coup to have the First Lady at a dinner or reception. One name is not surprising, but the other hasn't gotten a fair deal from historians who have been too lazy to truly study her. 1. Dolley Madison 2. Mary Lincoln
I swear if I was Jackie and JFK came at me with a boner I'd be like Honey you need to boil that thing!
Jackie and JFK had separate bedrooms. They were adjoining, but separate.
[quote]She carved out her own role and her own identity when she became First Lady. She was American Royalty, a member of a very powerful, wealthy dynasty. She finally had an opportunity to use her intellect and her creativity for the greatest possibly impact.
Jackie averted many an international crisis with her many gifts of charm, tact, breeding, and culture. We would have gone to war over the Cuban Missile Crisis had not Jackie herself jumped on the hotline to the Kremlin the final day and explained at great length to Khrushchev in English, French and Spanish just how she had personally restored the White House to the splendor and nobility of the James Madison era. Khrushchev decided there and then he dared not go to war with a nation that had produced such a dazzling First Lady.
[quote]I am sure Mamie Eisenhower ALWAYS dialed the phone with a pencil!
Don't be silly, she had one of the upstairs maids dial the phone with a pencil.
"Charming DeGaulle"? Er, Le Grand Charles said of Jackie: "Elle finira sur le yacht d'un marchand d'armes". Hardly a sign he was favorably impressed, though a good sign he was clairvoyant...
He knew an expensive whore when he saw one.
R91, you're not even bright enough to know what trolling is (it's not replying to a thread with information or opinions that are relevant, if opposing). And you should refrain from telling others to 'chill out' when you sound so histrionic yourself.
R102, please do not forget her trick pelvis. Alas, such an anomaly is useless to those with really bad backs.
In his new book, Christopher Anderson quotes a longtime friend of JFK & Jackie who said the two were the most isolated, lonely people he had ever met, and it was that quality that brought them together. I find that very poignant.
Sadly Jackie cared more about saving Grand Central Station than the homeless people living in it.
Hey, without GCS, the homeless would be on the street outside.